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GiantsSwaGG
02-04-2016, 03:47 PM
That word has been thrown around a lot, associated with players that deserve and players that don't. What's your definition of the word "SUPERSTAR"? Who would you said is true superstar? Is there any? Can you still be label a superstar with "limited" success?

Scoots
02-04-2016, 05:45 PM
I think to be an NBA superstar you have to have a domestic signature shoe, a regular in the all-star game, have a Q rating in the top 10 of NBA players several years, have jersey sales in the top 10 several years.

Superstar is about fan adoration, not skill.

tredigs
02-04-2016, 05:51 PM
I'd agree with Scoots, it's a word with popularity connotations much more so than impact. A guy like Kawhi sort of totes the line. He has enough popularity to be recognized as an All Star starter and has a Finals MVP + is an MVP candidate, but he's not exactly a household name or somebody who will be on your TV screens unless the Spurs are playing.

JasonJohnHorn
02-04-2016, 06:16 PM
I think superstar needs context.
For me it's like this.

All-Star (LMA; Nance; Irving; Worthy; Carter)
All-NBA (Stockton; Kidd; Richmond; Miller; Allen; Pierce)
Franchise Player (TD; Drexler; Robinson; Barkley; Hakeem)
Superstar (LBJ; KD; Shaq; Jordan; Magic; Bird; Curry; Kobe)

An All-Star is a guy that can play a a high level; puts up great numbers on an average team, but can't be the driving force on a contender.

An All-NBA player is a guy who is among the very best at his position on a regular basis, but you can't build around; rather he is a complimentary piece. They might be better than some franchise player, but their skill set isn't one you can build around.

A franchise player is a guy you can build around. Duncan. Hakeem. Potentially even a guy like Ben Wallace. The might in fact be better players than some Superstars (certainly in Duncan and Hakeem's place), but they aren't a draw; they don't sell jerseys. They are guys fans recognize, but might not be well known in the mainstream media.

Superstar is somebody who you can build a team around, but also serves as a celebrity who draws crowds and moves merchandise. Kobe. Jordan. Magic. Bird. LeBron. Perhaps KD: Curry has entered this realm. Some of them might not be as good as some franchise players, but they are among the best on the court AND make the team money.


That's how I see it. But this is subjective.

Scoots
02-04-2016, 06:40 PM
I think superstar needs context.
For me it's like this.

...

That's how I see it. But this is subjective.

Well said. Us crazy fans here tend to apply it to great players, but if they are not celebrities enough to get attention away from the court then they don't quite reach superstar status.

AIRMAR72
02-04-2016, 10:47 PM
I think superstar needs context.
For me it's like this.

All-Star (LMA; Nance; Irving; Worthy; Carter)
All-NBA (Stockton; Kidd; Richmond; Miller; Allen; Pierce)
Franchise Player (TD; Drexler; Robinson; Barkley; Hakeem)
Superstar (LBJ; KD; Shaq; Jordan; Magic; Bird; Curry; Kobe)

An All-Star is a guy that can play a a high level; puts up great numbers on an average team, but can't be the driving force on a contender.

An All-NBA player is a guy who is among the very best at his position on a regular basis, but you can't build around; rather he is a complimentary piece. They might be better than some franchise player, but their skill set isn't one you can build around.

A franchise player is a guy you can build around. Duncan. Hakeem. Potentially even a guy like Ben Wallace. The might in fact be better players than some Superstars (certainly in Duncan and Hakeem's place), but they aren't a draw; they don't sell jerseys. They are guys fans recognize, but might not be well known in the mainstream media.

Superstar is somebody who you can build a team around, but also serves as a celebrity who draws crowds and moves merchandise. Kobe. Jordan. Magic. Bird. LeBron. Perhaps KD: Curry has entered this realm. Some of them might not be as good as some franchise players, but they are among the best on the court AND make the team money.


That's how I see it. But this is subjective. The dream is flat out superstar you clearly didnt see Hakeem play and dominate some of the best CENTERS to ever play in the NBA. Kobe Bryant is NOT a superstar kobe always had franchise players and stars playing on the Lakers since day1 kobe NEVER shot 50% are dominate the league or the the SG position doesn't make his teammates better kobe franchise player but in today's NBA I guess jersey sales and shoe contracts means a player ia superstar is flat out rubbish

Scoots
02-04-2016, 11:38 PM
The dream is flat out superstar you clearly didnt see Hakeem play and dominate some of the best CENTERS to ever play in the NBA. Kobe Bryant is NOT a superstar kobe always had franchise players and stars playing on the Lakers since day1 kobe NEVER shot 50% are dominate the league or the the SG position doesn't make his teammates better kobe franchise player but in today's NBA I guess jersey sales and shoe contracts means a player ia superstar is flat out rubbish

So you didn't read his definition of superstar.

The origin of the idea of a superstar is someone who transcends their field to have wide recognition with the public. Hakeem didn't get there. If we are talking about the best players Hakeem is way up that list, but that isn't enough to make him a superstar. Right now there is LeBron, Curry, and Kobe ... I don't know that any of the other great players have the same level of coverage outside of basketball.

To put it a different way, my wife, who lives with a basketball junkie, knows who Magic, and Jordan are, but she has no idea who Dirk or Duncan are. Magic and Jordan were superstars, Dirk and Duncan are not even though all 4 are among the very rarefied air as the very very best ever to play the game.

5ass
02-05-2016, 12:34 AM
A superstar is either
a) a dominant top 5 player that can win/compare to the MVP
b) a (non-super) star that happened to land in a perfect situation

Gander13SM
02-05-2016, 01:20 AM
I think to be an NBA superstar you have to have a domestic signature shoe, a regular in the all-star game, have a Q rating in the top 10 of NBA players several years, have jersey sales in the top 10 several years.

Superstar is about fan adoration, not skill.

Agree 100%

I've always said the label of a "superstar" is about popularity not skill. I would argue Porzingis is more of a superstar right now than a guy like Kawhi Leonard.

IKnowHoops
02-05-2016, 01:55 AM
The dream is flat out superstar you clearly didnt see Hakeem play and dominate some of the best CENTERS to ever play in the NBA. Kobe Bryant is NOT a superstar kobe always had franchise players and stars playing on the Lakers since day1 kobe NEVER shot 50% are dominate the league or the the SG position doesn't make his teammates better kobe franchise player but in today's NBA I guess jersey sales and shoe contracts means a player ia superstar is flat out rubbish

To go even farther, I would def say David Robinson and Charles Barkley were superstars. The admiral had tons of endorsements and Nike commercials. And he was dominating.

Chronz
02-05-2016, 03:47 AM
A superstar is either
a) a dominant top 5 player that can win/compare to the MVP
b) a (non-super) star that happened to land in a perfect situation

Well put bewbs

europagnpilgrim
02-05-2016, 05:02 PM
its a combination of being box office as in jersey-ticket sales both home and road games combined with international-global reach, charisma-sex appeal, commercial marketing ability-community reacher/tv ratings,ability to make a bottom tier lottery team contenders within 3 year span

all of those follows in order after that player showcases the total package ability of high level skill/dominance with natural supreme talent/heart-not afraid of moment/killer Instinct-carry a team and you can throw in inflated ego to really spice it up, but first and foremost you got to be able to put the ball in the hoop at a entertaining rate, rather it be the dunk/fingerroll/reverse layups or mid range or 3pt shot, slick passing-flash or combo of all, its the best entertainer- solo acts- primetime -rockstar-culture changers


Big Dipper-Magic-Air Jordan-The Answer-Dr J-D Rob-Big O-Shaq Diesel and others of that nature, it boils down to how the next man feels since its all based on our opinionated/factual views and values

Sanjay
02-05-2016, 06:57 PM
I would say a superstar is a player who consistently dominates in a way to help their team win. Using this; LeBron, Durant, Paul, Davis, Curry, Harden and Griffin would be superstars. In saying that, those would be my top 7 players in order. I know most people would put Steph and James ahead of Chris and AD, but I prefer players with all-round games. I think team success is a difficult measure to place on a superstar because it is not your fault if you do not have that great a players around you. Similarly, for example with the Cavaliers won championships then Irving might be considered a superstar even if their success was mostly due to LeBron. However, if you are talking about legends then I think you need to have won the title.

KnicksorBust
02-05-2016, 07:08 PM
Was Pippen a superstar?

DanG
02-05-2016, 07:55 PM
LeBron, Melo, Wade and Kobe have been the global superstars for many years and they will remain superstars until they retire regardless of how they play IMO. Now over the past few years I think only Curry and KD have reached the superstar status. Westbrook could also be one, but I think he needs to play without KD to really get there.

Being a superstar doesn't necessarily mean you are the best player, but it means that you have that 'it' factor. People just love to talk about you, the media cares about everything you say, you are the face of a big shoe company... all that matters. I live in Europe and most of the people don't follow NBA here, but people still know players like Curry, LeBron, Kobe etc. even though they don't give a **** about basketball.

flea
02-05-2016, 07:58 PM
Any definition that says Allen Iverson and Vince Carter are superstars but Tim Duncan and Hakeem Olajuwon are not should raise a metric ton of eyebrows.

tredigs
02-05-2016, 08:22 PM
LeBron, Melo, Wade and Kobe have been the global superstars for many years and they will remain superstars until they retire regardless of how they play IMO. Now over the past few years I think only Curry and KD have reached the superstar status. Westbrook could also be one, but I think he needs to play without KD to really get there.

Being a superstar doesn't necessarily mean you are the best player, but it means that you have that 'it' factor. People just love to talk about you, the media cares about everything you say, you are the face of a big shoe company... all that matters. I live in Europe and most of the people don't follow NBA here, but people still know players like Curry, LeBron, Kobe etc. even though they don't give a **** about basketball.


Any definition that says Allen Iverson and Vince Carter are superstars but Tim Duncan and Hakeem Olajuwon are not should raise a metric ton of eyebrows.

Aha I actually like this definition: Does a random European family know your name? That's a "superstar".

Being a superstar and being an elite talent - even a legend - are mutually exclusive to many people, and I think that makes sense. It's why Kobe is still a "superstar" despite not being a top 100 player, or why Kawhi Leonard is really not considered one despite having top 5 impact. It shouldn't be seen as a negative to not have that label.

flea
02-05-2016, 11:34 PM
Aha I actually like this definition: Does a random European family know your name? That's a "superstar".

Being a superstar and being an elite talent - even a legend - are mutually exclusive to many people, and I think that makes sense. It's why Kobe is still a "superstar" despite not being a top 100 player, or why Kawhi Leonard is really not considered one despite having top 5 impact. It shouldn't be seen as a negative to not have that label.

How far do you want to go with this?

AI/VC combined: 1 MVP, 0 FMVP, 0 DPOY, 3 All-NBA First Team
TD/HO combined: 3 MVP, 5 FMVP, 2 DPOY, 16 All-NBA First Team

Is Griffin a bigger superstar than Dream because he sells shoes? Are D'Angelo Russell and Paul Pierce bigger superstars because they play for big market/historical teams? If "superstar" means number of jerseys sold then Yao is probably the biggest in history, and if not just after MJ. That is a completely pointless distinction IMO.

tredigs
02-05-2016, 11:47 PM
How far do you want to go with this?

AI/VC combined: 1 MVP, 0 FMVP, 0 DPOY, 3 All-NBA First Team
TD/HO combined: 3 MVP, 5 FMVP, 2 DPOY, 16 All-NBA First Team

Is Griffin a bigger superstar than Dream because he sells shoes? Are D'Angelo Russell and Paul Pierce bigger superstars because they play for big market/historical teams? If "superstar" means number of jerseys sold then Yao is probably the biggest in history, and if not just after MJ. That is a completely pointless distinction IMO.

You're jumping all over the place here. Playing for a team itself clearly does not make the superstar. You also have to be an ultra-popular figure who is either All-NBA caliber, or formerly at that level (ala Kobe). But yes, historically playing for New York or LA (much less so Boston) certainly help create the "SuperStar" (less important now, but still helps). Winning helps as well. Yao was a massive international superstar though, yes.

I think you're too caught up in the idea that a "super star" has simply to due with on-court impact. It doesn't. It's closer to a brand concept than it is a reflection on someones skill.

Scoots
02-06-2016, 02:35 AM
Fashion models become super models when they transcend the fashion world and become known to people who don't care about the fashion industry.

Superstar is ONLY about general public perception ... it just often happens to correspond to on court performance too.

0nekhmer
02-06-2016, 04:24 AM
I think superstars are players who can be franchise players. Guys who are clear leaders on their teams who are well recognized by the casual fan. They obviously need the numbers and all star selections to back it up. Guys who are great business men who KNOW bow to market themselves. Kawhi could easily be more recognized if he actually made smarter business moves and put himself out there. Do more commercials, more interviews, get a shoe, use your "claw" as a symbol that people can recognize you with.

kdspurman
02-06-2016, 10:19 AM
Dream, Dirk, Duncan, etc... are superstars.

You can be a superstar without caring to do commercials and getting an extra attention off the court and winning popularity contests.

You can be a superstar, or you can be a popular superstar or fan favorite type of guy

kdspurman
02-06-2016, 10:22 AM
I think superstars are players who can be franchise players. Guys who are clear leaders on their teams who are well recognized by the casual fan. They obviously need the numbers and all star selections to back it up. Guys who are great business men who KNOW bow to market themselves. Kawhi could easily be more recognized if he actually made smarter business moves and put himself out there. Do more commercials, more interviews, get a shoe, use your "claw" as a symbol that people can recognize you with.

Smarter business moves based on what? Not everyone wants that limelight. He just wants to play basketball.

& He already has the claw on his sneakers BTW and a deal with Jordan brand.

Gander13SM
02-06-2016, 10:29 AM
Dream, Dirk, Duncan, etc... are superstars.

You can be a superstar without caring to do commercials and getting an extra attention off the court and winning popularity contests.

You can be a superstar, or you can be a popular superstar or fan favorite type of guy

Not really. Literally the definition for a superstar is; "an extremely famous and successful performer or sports player"

To be extremely famous you have to be popular to the masses.

I would never dream of calling Kawhi Leonard a superstar. But he's definitely a franchise player.

I would never dream of calling Porzingis a franchise player. But he is a superstar.

kdspurman
02-06-2016, 11:23 AM
Not really. Literally the definition for a superstar is; "an extremely famous and successful performer or sports player"

To be extremely famous you have to be popular to the masses.

I would never dream of calling Kawhi Leonard a superstar. But he's definitely a franchise player.

I would never dream of calling Porzingis a franchise player. But he is a superstar.

And you don't think Duncan/Dirk/Dream were during their primes?

I didn't say Kawhi was yet, but I don't agree he has to do all this extra stuff to hit that status.

kdspurman
02-06-2016, 11:31 AM
Btw, Duncan was just number 7 in most popular jerseys last year according to nbastore.com, since that sort of thing is a factor or something :eyebrow:

That was at age 38.

Gander13SM
02-06-2016, 12:32 PM
And you don't think Duncan/Dirk/Dream were during their primes?

I didn't say Kawhi was yet, but I don't agree he has to do all this extra stuff to hit that status.

Sure Duncan, Dirk and Dream were. Because they were popular. Popularity is what makes you a superstar.

kdspurman
02-06-2016, 12:33 PM
Sure Duncan, Dirk and Dream were. Because they were popular. Popularity is what makes you a superstar.

I think that's a small portion of it. There are guys who are popular but for the wrong reasons. You can't just say popuar w/o context IMO.

Gander13SM
02-06-2016, 01:25 PM
I think that's a small portion of it. There are guys who are popular but for the wrong reasons. You can't just say popuar w/o context IMO.

You can't be a superstar without being popular. You can be popular and not be a superstar.

Kush McDaniels
02-06-2016, 02:06 PM
I just think of superstar as a current top 5 or so player. It should be a top tier player. An allstar is simply a guy who made the allstar team. A star is just a popular player.

Last year I'd say Curry, Harden, LeBron, Griffin, Westbrook were all superstars.

0nekhmer
02-06-2016, 02:50 PM
Not really. Literally the definition for a superstar is; "an extremely famous and successful performer or sports player"

To be extremely famous you have to be popular to the masses.

I would never dream of calling Kawhi Leonard a superstar. But he's definitely a franchise player.

I would never dream of calling Porzingis a franchise player. But he is a superstar.

Eh, I don't think porzingis should be considered a superstar. He's got the popularity, but not the numbers to solidify himself as a top talent yet.

I feel like you need both. A case like Kevin Love during his Minnesota days - he had the numbers, but lacked popularity for superstardom.

Gander13SM
02-06-2016, 03:14 PM
Eh, I don't think porzingis should be considered a superstar. He's got the popularity, but not the numbers to solidify himself as a top talent yet.

I feel like you need both. A case like Kevin Love during his Minnesota days - he had the numbers, but lacked popularity for superstardom.

I don't think the talent matters as much as the popularity. At one point I considered Lin a superstar. For a very brief period.

I don't care about superstars. It's a 70/30 split between popularity/celebrity and talent imo.

Vee-Rex
02-06-2016, 05:32 PM
I agree with the textbook definition of "superstar" as described by Scoots in this thread.

However, here's the problem I have with the way people use it to exclude guys like Duncan, Dirk, and Olajuwon:

Where do you draw the superstar line? Once they become a global icon? Jersey sales? Shoe contracts? Online popularity?

Is Duncan not a superstar, or is he simply not a superstar relative to the likes of MJ or Kobe? Or is he simply 'less of a superstar'? The fame is definitely there for both Duncan and Dirk even though it's not as widespread in the media as someone like Kobe.

I can accept people saying "Dirk is not as much of a superstar as Kobe", but I cannot agree that it means Dirk simply isn't a superstar, because any established 'guidelines' are more arbitrary than not.

That's not even accounting for era. Obviously there are a lot of guys in the past who may not have been big superstars at that time but would have been in this social-media driven time of ours.

In the end, the term "superstar" is simply a meaningless label that's interpreted in a variety of ways.

flea
02-06-2016, 08:46 PM
You're jumping all over the place here. Playing for a team itself clearly does not make the superstar. You also have to be an ultra-popular figure who is either All-NBA caliber, or formerly at that level (ala Kobe). But yes, historically playing for New York or LA (much less so Boston) certainly help create the "SuperStar" (less important now, but still helps). Winning helps as well. Yao was a massive international superstar though, yes.

I think you're too caught up in the idea that a "super star" has simply to due with on-court impact. It doesn't. It's closer to a brand concept than it is a reflection on someones skill.

So whoever whores themself out the most is the biggest superstar? That is what "superstar" means to you, being a shameless shill? I honestly respect athletes that don't do that. A lot of my favorite athletes are known for eschewing the marketing machine and I don't think it has any impact on their legacy or whether they "transcend the game" - and if it does then I think it's a positive that speaks to their character.

Sounds like you want to define it like this guy who treats basketball players like supermodels:


Fashion models become super models when they transcend the fashion world and become known to people who don't care about the fashion industry.

Superstar is ONLY about general public perception ... it just often happens to correspond to on court performance too.

This is why the NBA is a joke to a lot of serious sports fans. It's full of primadonnas more worried about their public image than they are winning games or being a part of a team. To them, teammates are simply scapegoats when things go wrong.

Scoots
02-06-2016, 09:14 PM
I don't treat basketball players like models ... The definition of superstar does. I don't care about superstar status at all, but I do know the definition. All of the major sports have superstars with the same rules ... It's not just the nba.

Gander13SM
02-06-2016, 09:25 PM
This is why the NBA is a joke to a lot of serious sports fans. It's full of primadonnas more worried about their public image than they are winning games or being a part of a team. To them, teammates are simply scapegoats when things go wrong.

It's the same for most sports though.

Being a super star is about popularity.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/superstar

It's the actual dictionary definition. "Great popularity" "extremely popular"

It's the same for all sports. I don't follow the NFL. Here's a list of players who's names I know (all time);

Cam Newton,
Johnny Manziel,
Marshawn Lynch,
Peyton Manning,
Tom Brady,
Joe Montana,
Eli Manning
Dick Butkus (LOL! I thought his name was Dick Butt kiss)

And Michael Vick.


Now I'm guessing I didn't just form the top 9-10 all time. But what I have done is highlighted a bunch of guys who are most likely superstars, for good reasons or bad.

Popularity. That's what defines a superstar.

NYKalltheway
02-07-2016, 06:09 PM
I think superstar needs context.
For me it's like this.

All-Star (LMA; Nance; Irving; Worthy; Carter)
All-NBA (Stockton; Kidd; Richmond; Miller; Allen; Pierce)
Franchise Player (TD; Drexler; Robinson; Barkley; Hakeem)
Superstar (LBJ; KD; Shaq; Jordan; Magic; Bird; Curry; Kobe)


Pretty accurate. Though I have to say that Barkley and Hakeem in particular were superstars. So was Vince Carter and Allen Iverson.
I'll add that a superstar is someone with global recognition. Hakeem was through the roof in the 90s. Hakeem, Shaq, Grant Hill, Iverson and Shawn Kemp were very celebrated across the world in the 90s, with Jordan being the obvious #1. I'd say that those guys were international superstars, at least based on your definition. And obviously, Kemp was not a player you'd build around (plus he ruined his career in the lockout). And by recognition I actually mean hype. Not recognition of talent, because that's a given for most great players in the NBA.

NYKalltheway
02-07-2016, 06:16 PM
Was Pippen a superstar?

no, but he rode shotgun on a superstar's motor

tredigs
02-08-2016, 06:44 AM
So whoever whores themself out the most is the biggest superstar? That is what "superstar" means to you, being a shameless shill? I honestly respect athletes that don't do that. A lot of my favorite athletes are known for eschewing the marketing machine and I don't think it has any impact on their legacy or whether they "transcend the game" - and if it does then I think it's a positive that speaks to their character.

Sounds like you want to define it like this guy who treats basketball players like supermodels:



This is why the NBA is a joke to a lot of serious sports fans. It's full of primadonnas more worried about their public image than they are winning games or being a part of a team. To them, teammates are simply scapegoats when things go wrong.
Lol, you have issues you need to deal with concerning advertising, and it makes me laugh.

"that sell themselves out like a shameless shill!". Hahaha.

NYKalltheway
02-08-2016, 08:44 AM
Lol, you have issues you need to deal with concerning advertising, and it makes me laugh.

"that sell themselves out like a shameless shill!". Hahaha.

he's got a point though

Scoots
02-08-2016, 10:59 AM
he's got a point though

I think that's true of every major professional sport.