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JasonJohnHorn
02-02-2016, 03:34 AM
The Warriors havefive players shooting over .400 from the arc.

To put this in perspective, if we went back to 94, when the Rockets were the first team to really take advantage of the 3-point shot (not that Bird and the Celtics hadn't, but not to such a degree), each of those five players on the Warriors (Curry, Klay, Green, Rush, and Clark) would have ranked ahead of or tied the third best 3-point shoot in the league (none of the top five players shooters that year were on the same team).

Curry has already hit more three's than the leader that year, and Klay is on his way and has already hit more than the third place shooter.

What's more, the Warriors 'worst' 3-point shooter (and I'm only include those guys who regularly take 3-point shots-more than 1 a game), is shooting over 38%, which is higher than Dan Majerele's percentage in 94 (he led the league with the most three's).

That means that 9 of the Warriors current roster would have been among the league leaders in 3-point shooters in 94.



People say that Curry is transforming the game, but really, it Kerr and the entire roster that are turning the league upside down.

Five guys on one team shooting over .400 from beyond the arc? In 91, there were barely five guys in the entire league to average that, and most of them were just guys who came off the bench to shoot open three's (Craig Hodges for example).


I just get more and more dumbfounded at the scope of this level/style of play.


The coach who figures out how to defend this is going to get coach of the decade. Frankly, it seems like until players start leaving the team, the rest of the league is going to have to wait until their players catch up.


How historic do you think this team's shooting is going to be? Is this going to be something nobody touches again? Or will the league be transitioning to this style of play?

Gander13SM
02-02-2016, 05:56 AM
The system Kerr/Gentry/Adams put into place is absolutely ridiculous. It's making guys like Iguodala seem like dead eye shooters.

But none of it would work to the same degree as it is without Steph (and probably Draymond).

I honestly believe the only coach that could feasibly find a way to stop this squad right now is Popovich and his team.

Anyway. As for historical relevance. I don't think we'll really know until we look back at it 20 years from now. But I do think it's the natural evolution of the game. I mean when Sailors first started to shoot a jump shot it was hated for "hurting the game" the same with dunks and alley oops etc.

Eventually the game has to evolve again. The time is now.

I was watching open court, the episode with a bunch of nba coaches and interestingly McHale said he felt the next evolution for the game in regards to players wasn't someone like Draymond, a perimiter player that is capable of defending in the post and allowing teams to go small. But instead he believes it's a big man, absolutely dominant in the post who can also step out and defend the perimiter. I'm inclined to agree with him as a player like that would destroy the small ball movement instantly. Imaging having someone with the skill set of Olajuwon in the post who could also defend James Harden or Westbrook.

And I think the fact big men are becoming more prone to playing on the perimiter only makes it a matter of time before we see that next step in the evolution.

But who knows. It's all just speculation at this point.

JasonJohnHorn
02-02-2016, 10:02 AM
I was watching open court, the episode with a bunch of nba coaches and interestingly McHale said he felt the next evolution for the game in regards to players wasn't someone like Draymond, a perimiter player that is capable of defending in the post and allowing teams to go small. But instead he believes it's a big man, absolutely dominant in the post who can also step out and defend the perimiter. I'm inclined to agree with him as a player like that would destroy the small ball movement instantly. Imaging having someone with the skill set of Olajuwon in the post who could also defend James Harden or Westbrook.

And I think the fact big men are becoming more prone to playing on the perimiter only makes it a matter of time before we see that next step in the evolution.


I think defensively, teams will always want an anchor like Hakeem or Mutumbo to play the post because if they get drawn out, it will make the team vulnerable to attacks at the rim. This is especially important because as guys like Curry command players to defend them further out, it becomes easier for them to take those players to the basket. Teams, with the kind of play GSW is using, will need that interior presence.


We've seen this with C's that can shoot. When Laimbeer, or Perkins, or Sabonis stepped out for 3's, it drew the anchor out and allowed guys to attack, and if the anchor didn't come out, then the big would have an open 3.

I agree bigs that can shoot will be important. They create mismatches when players are switching up, or open the paint up for attacks.


With so many guys shooting over .400 from the arch, the only think that can combat that, efficiency wise, is a guy that shoots .600 from the paint. That is an even 12 points for 10 shots with a guy that hits .400.

A guy that hits over .600 from the paint will draw a double team, and with guys that can hit threes waiting for openings, that will kill other teams. It'd kinda be like Hakeem and the Rockets, but higher percentages.


Other than that, I just a near rejection of conventional positions. I mean.... Green is a power forward leading his team in assists and shooting 3's better than the very best shooting guards in the history of the league.


But yeah.... a guy like Shaq, who would shoot over .600 without a double team, is the only think that could throw a wrench in a system like GSW's.

Defensively.... you just need REALLY good defenders. Guys that can play close and back peddle fast and don't fawk up when switching defenders likes Philly did as the end of the game the other night.

nycericanguy
02-02-2016, 10:27 AM
Alot of it is the product of being on a great team of course.

Guys tend to be more efficient playing with other stars. I mean of course Curry & Klay are generational shooters, but everyone else just benefits from the insane amount of attention defenses have to pay to Curry/Klay.

Where as a guy like Melo on my Knicks, has no one to really draw attention away from him, but I would imagine if he had a Westbrook or Curry he'd be more efficient as well.

IndyRealist
02-02-2016, 10:39 AM
It's going to be the defense with fast enough athletes to hedge and recover without having to rotate. I'd take 2012 Miami to dismantle them. That defense was terrifying.

And saying that Curry is changing the game is just hyperbole. This is where basketball was headed once analytics proved 3s were better than just about anything you could get that wasn't at the rim. Sooner or later someone was going to assemble a team to take advantage of it.

But we like to think of basketball as a game of stars rather than of strategies and roster building. It seems like the same people that say it's all about stars are the same people that say you can't quantify a team game. But i digress. Curry didn't change the game, neither did the Warriors. The game changed a decade ago and people were just too stubborn to see it.

Scoots
02-02-2016, 10:51 AM
Thibs said that the key to the Warriors that is not talked about is that Curry rebounds too (5.2 per game this year) and that leads to everybody rebounding. If you go small he said you can still defend, but rebounding is about height and effort and if you are small and don't put in extra effort you will keep giving up additional shots and it will wear you down.

Sounds like Thibs is in favor of going big against the Warriors.

The Warriors had 7 guys over .400 30 games in, and have 10 over the Mendoza line now. As nycericanguy said, it's somewhat a function of the space the players get, but it's also a result of the coaches and the team as a whole embracing the 3 so more players feel comfortable taking the 3 without worrying about the coach or teammates getting on them for taking a "bad shot". Just look at Livingston ... he had attempted a 3 51 times in 10 years since he knows it's not his shot ... but watch Curry on the bench celebrate when the shot goes up even though Livingston was shooting under .100 from 3 https://youtu.be/bUu5tXwxttc

3s are in fact contagious.

Scoots
02-02-2016, 10:54 AM
Just found this which sort of illustrates the Warriors approach - Luke Walton talking about Livingston:


"He hasn't passed up any yet, but he hasn't gotten any yet which leads me to believe he's not hanging out around that 3-point line. Because on our 3-point line, you should get some threes with the way we move and the double-teams our guys demand."

....Walton smiled and says he has a bet with Livingston that the 30-year-old owes push-ups when he has an open look at a 3-pointer and doesn't shoot.

flea
02-02-2016, 10:54 AM
They have the best shooting PG in the NBA by far (probably best in NBA history) and also the best shooting SG in the NBA. If they aren't shooting a lot then someone is committing malpractice on the sidelines.

"Wait for the league to catch up" - IDK what this means. The league isn't all going to "catch up" by chucking a million 3s per game any more than the league in the 90s was going to "catch up" by putting 2 big and athletic slashing wings on the same team and letting them wreak havoc on both ends of the court. Warriors win with shooting but they didn't change anything, they just shoot better than most teams because they've got the upper-end talent to do so.

tredigs
02-02-2016, 11:16 AM
Yeah, I mean the fact that they have Klay and especially Curry along with a great offensive system just opens the game up so much for our other guys to have easy looks. They're two of the top 10 3pt shooters ever, in their prime on the same team at the same time. That's probably not going to be replicated any time soon.

valade16
02-02-2016, 11:22 AM
Yeah, I mean the fact that they have Klay and especially Curry along with a great offensive system just opens the game up so much for our other guys to have easy looks. They're two of the top 10 3pt shooters ever, in their prime on the same team at the same time. That's probably not going to be replicated any time soon.

While obviously having 2 of the best 3 point shooters ever on the same team helps, I think it also has to do with the scheme to get them so many open looks.

For example, my Blazers are over-achieving and in the 8th seed in the playoffs and a big part of that is our HC basically runs the exact same schemes and plays the Dubs do for Curry/Klay with Lillard/CJ and they are nowhere near as good as shooters as their Warriors counterparts.

nycericanguy
02-02-2016, 11:38 AM
While obviously having 2 of the best 3 point shooters ever on the same team helps, I think it also has to do with the scheme to get them so many open looks.

For example, my Blazers are over-achieving and in the 8th seed in the playoffs and a big part of that is our HC basically runs the exact same schemes and plays the Dubs do for Curry/Klay with Lillard/CJ and they are nowhere near as good as shooters as their Warriors counterparts.

POR shoots slightly above league average from 3... 35%

GSW is at 43%.

Like others said, you cant replicate Curry & Klay. It's not about just hoisting a ton of 3's, its getting quality 3's. And that comes from having arguably the two best shooters in NBA history.

I'm not sure Dray could get away with playing C on other teams, and that's another huge advantage for them.

Scoots
02-02-2016, 11:47 AM
POR shoots slightly above league average from 3... 35%

GSW is at 43%.

Like others said, you cant replicate Curry & Klay. It's not about just hoisting a ton of 3's, its getting quality 3's. And that comes from having arguably the two best shooters in NBA history.

I'm not sure Dray could get away with playing C on other teams, and that's another huge advantage for them.

Another factor in the Warriors success is that they have 8 guys who can pass and who average more than 3.6 assists per 36. If the secondary shooters are open but not getting the ball quickly and on target they don't shoot as well either.

valade16
02-02-2016, 12:03 PM
POR shoots slightly above league average from 3... 35%

GSW is at 43%.

Like others said, you cant replicate Curry & Klay. It's not about just hoisting a ton of 3's, its getting quality 3's. And that comes from having arguably the two best shooters in NBA history.

I'm not sure Dray could get away with playing C on other teams, and that's another huge advantage for them.

I believe you're saying the same thing I am. No you can't replicate Curry and Klay, but you can replicate their system, which Portland has done to surprising success. The reason Portland is currently the 8th seed and not the 1st seed is because they simply aren't as good as the Warriors. But a big reason they aren't the 13th seed is because they are emulating the Warriors' system.


Another factor in the Warriors success is that they have 8 guys who can pass and who average more than 3.6 assists per 36. If the secondary shooters are open but not getting the ball quickly and on target they don't shoot as well either.

Oh yeah, The Warrior's offense is on another level. The Blazers use Plumlee in the Draymond role on offense and have had surprising success with it (his Per36 APG is 3.8).

Obviously nowhere near the level of the Warriors, but I never claimed they were. But it's just funny watching the Blazers and reading our playbook and watching the breakdown, Stotts basically stole the Warrior's playbook :laugh2:

Scoots
02-02-2016, 12:12 PM
I believe you're saying the same thing I am. No you can't replicate Curry and Klay, but you can replicate their system, which Portland has done to surprising success. The reason Portland is currently the 8th seed and not the 1st seed is because they simply aren't as good as the Warriors. But a big reason they aren't the 13th seed is because they are emulating the Warriors' system.

Oh yeah, The Warrior's offense is on another level. The Blazers use Plumlee in the Draymond role on offense and have had surprising success with it (his Per36 APG is 3.8).

Obviously nowhere near the level of the Warriors, but I never claimed they were. But it's just funny watching the Blazers and reading our playbook and watching the breakdown, Stotts basically stole the Warrior's playbook :laugh2:

Yeah, it's amazing looking at what Bob Myers built quietly. The Warriors "non-shooters" not only can pass, they are delighted to pass (Bogut, Iguodala, Livingston, Barbosa). Also the Warriors "top priority" in the off-season was getting more shooting and they added Ian Clark who has become a regular in the rotation and he is doing a good job shooting and passing.

If only Klay, Barnes, and Speights were better passers ... THEN the Warriors would have something :)

Vee-Rex
02-02-2016, 12:46 PM
It's absolutely ludicrous.

We're all molded to believe that jump shooting teams can't win an NBA championship. The Warriors do soooo much more than just jump shoot, but it's what sticks out the most. They are incredible at jump shooting.

The logical part of my mind sometimes tells me that they'll just 'cool off' because what they're doing is so unbelievable. Unfortunately for the rest of the league... they're just that good. And I've come to accept that they're simply dominating in a way we've never seen before. It'll take something incredible to stop them.

Scoots
02-02-2016, 01:23 PM
It's absolutely ludicrous.

We're all molded to believe that jump shooting teams can't win an NBA championship. The Warriors do soooo much more than just jump shoot, but it's what sticks out the most. They are incredible at jump shooting.

The logical part of my mind sometimes tells me that they'll just 'cool off' because what they're doing is so unbelievable. Unfortunately for the rest of the league... they're just that good. And I've come to accept that they're simply dominating in a way we've never seen before. It'll take something incredible to stop them.

They DO cool off. It's just that if one players shots are not falling there are several others to pick up the slack. If all of them are cold they can rely on suffocating defense and running or using the motion offense and the threat of the jump shot to get open shots at the rim.

If you watch the Milwaukee loss you will see a team that is cold, and doesn't have the energy to play the D or run the offense. In the last 2 years, no offense meant to the teams that have beaten them, the only losses have been when the Warriors offense and defenses were off. No doubt opposing teams can influence the Warriors to be off ... KCP really messes with Curry, but as each problem has come up the Warriors, given enough time, have found a new solution that they then don't forget and keep using from then on. The current high PnR with Curry and Green was really discovered in the 4th quarter of game 3 of the finals ... they didn't win the game, went down 1-2 in the finals, won the next 3 games and the first 24 to start the season.

Last year the team was going great, Bogut got hurt and the offense fell apart, they had to figure out how to make it work without Bogut. It seems silly now to think that Bogut was THE key to the offense, but he was, then he missed time, and they unlocked another part of the offense where Curry was the new key. Now Draymond is the key.

They don't panic, they are confident, they are smart, they are driven. It's something I haven't seen before in pro sports ... not like this. I don't know how anybody can beat them in 7 games, particularly when 4 are in Oakland.

I still think the best bet is to put a long, quick, physical guard on Curry and play everyone else straight up man ... hustle like mad ALWAYS, have a good half court game to control pace, protect the ball on your posessions, and hit your shots. And hope.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
02-02-2016, 02:48 PM
Still a bit risky as a jump shooting team. If it's not falling you lose. So far everything going in. Try a season or 2 later. Doubt they keep this up. Hawks last year were playing great and had 4 All Stars now they're forgotten team. Also Warriors have to open up check book for Barnes and Ezeli this summer. Then following year Bogut and Iggy are UFA. Also Curry be due for super max. Even with cap going up it will be cap hell for Warriors. It's a nice Cinderella story though chasing 72 wins.

JasonJohnHorn
02-02-2016, 03:54 PM
Still a bit risky as a jump shooting team. If it's not falling you lose. So far everything going in. Try a season or 2 later. Doubt they keep this up. Hawks last year were playing great and had 4 All Stars now they're forgotten team. Also Warriors have to open up check book for Barnes and Ezeli this summer. Then following year Bogut and Iggy are UFA. Also Curry be due for super max. Even with cap going up it will be cap hell for Warriors. It's a nice Cinderella story though chasing 72 wins.


I've always hated that argument about jump shooting teams: if they're not falling, you lose.


Of course... it doesn't matter where you are shooting from: it its not falling you lose. It doesn't matter if you are in the paint or behind the arc.

But with the Warriors, its not a matter of one or two guys going cold. You'd have to have 8 guys go cold. And even so, you still got a guy with the best handles in the league that can drive to the basket.


If your ball movement is good and you are getting open shots, you'll win.

You have a great point about the cap space issues, but if the teams is winning and making money hand over fist, like the Bulls did in the 90's, then they can afford to pay out the wazoo. Coupled with that, they'll pick up ring chasers for the vet min.

And this is no 'Cinderella' story. They are the defending champs. not some underdog. This is not a fluke where the magic wears off after 24 hours.


As for ATL, they lost their second best 3-baller to free agency, which have allowed defenses to swarm Korver, dropping his 3pth % from 50 to the high 30's. Not to mention the east has improved from last year.

With Curry, Green, and Klay all shooting well over .400, defenses can't focus on one. Without two of those guys falling off the face of the earth, defences will still be spread thin against GSW.

Tony_Starks
02-02-2016, 04:04 PM
The system is great but it in NO way should take away from the epic play of the best player on the planet. Steph is doing more than just orchestrating out there, he's basically unguardable now and it hasn't diminished his court vision one bit. If anything it's even better.

Insert another great pg and the Warriors are still contenders.

With Steph they are a historically great contender.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
02-02-2016, 04:15 PM
Glad my Bucks were first to get that win off them. I even called it in the game thread. Almost pulled off both wins but we fell apart second game in 4 quarter final 4 minutes Warriors got hot and hit a couple threes and pulled away.

Scoots
02-02-2016, 04:41 PM
Glad my Bucks were first to get that win off them. I even called it in the game thread. Almost pulled off both wins but we fell apart second game in 4 quarter final 4 minutes Warriors got hot and hit a couple threes and pulled away.

The Bucks have a good matchup for the Warriors ... they are willing to play man, they muck up the movement, they can score in the half court, they are willing to keep the pace down. But they still have to have one of their better games to beat the Warriors ... and doing that 4 times in 7 games is not likely.

The Warriors also have trouble staying in front of quick backup guards if the team also has a post presence keeping the rotations restricted.

WOwolfOL
02-02-2016, 11:56 PM
Move the 3 line back

ewing
02-03-2016, 01:14 PM
I've always hated that argument about jump shooting teams: if they're not falling, you lose.


Of course... it doesn't matter where you are shooting from: it its not falling you lose. It doesn't matter if you are in the paint or behind the arc.

But with the Warriors, its not a matter of one or two guys going cold. You'd have to have 8 guys go cold. And even so, you still got a guy with the best handles in the league that can drive to the basket.


If your ball movement is good and you are getting open shots, you'll win.

You have a great point about the cap space issues, but if the teams is winning and making money hand over fist, like the Bulls did in the 90's, then they can afford to pay out the wazoo. Coupled with that, they'll pick up ring chasers for the vet min.

And this is no 'Cinderella' story. They are the defending champs. not some underdog. This is not a fluke where the magic wears off after 24 hours.


As for ATL, they lost their second best 3-baller to free agency, which have allowed defenses to swarm Korver, dropping his 3pth % from 50 to the high 30's. Not to mention the east has improved from last year.

With Curry, Green, and Klay all shooting well over .400, defenses can't focus on one. Without two of those guys falling off the face of the earth, defences will still be spread thin against GSW.

agreed its a stupid argument.

Chronz
02-03-2016, 04:15 PM
I've always hated that argument about jump shooting teams: if they're not falling, you lose.


Of course... it doesn't matter where you are shooting from: it its not falling you lose. It doesn't matter if you are in the paint or behind the arc.
Yeah but the idea behind it is that jump shooting teams have a higher variance of game to game consistency. Having a dominant paint presence was a consistent thing but yeah thats always been a simple way of looking at the game.

The best examples I can remember of 3pt shooting being an utter equalizer have been the 09 Magic that went on a barrage of 3's vs Cleveland and predictably declined in the Finals. Im sure the Lakers superior defenders played a role but there was also that hot shooting that has to fade eventually.

Also the play of Trevor Ariza during that same Finals run, Ariza was letting it rain and was a huge X-Factor.

Chronz
02-03-2016, 04:33 PM
Oh yeah, and those Suns that made the WCF its final year was crazy, J-Rich just would not miss a 3 and his production gave them 3 all-star caliber producers, a huge boon for a team that had lost as much talent as it did.

alkalinesolo
02-03-2016, 04:56 PM
Glad my Bucks were first to get that win off them. I even called it in the game thread. Almost pulled off both wins but we fell apart second game in 4 quarter final 4 minutes Warriors got hot and hit a couple threes and pulled away.


Well the Bucks got their first win vs the Warriors on the last game of a 7 game road trip the night after going to double OT. I don't care how good you are, those wins aren't going to happen very often. As soon as I saw they had a game the day after that double OT game I called it that they were going to lose.

Scoots
02-03-2016, 05:07 PM
Yeah but the idea behind it is that jump shooting teams have a higher variance of game to game consistency. Having a dominant paint presence was a consistent thing but yeah thats always been a simple way of looking at the game.

The best examples I can remember of 3pt shooting being an utter equalizer have been the 09 Magic that went on a barrage of 3's vs Cleveland and predictably declined in the Finals. Im sure the Lakers superior defenders played a role but there was also that hot shooting that has to fade eventually.

Also the play of Trevor Ariza during that same Finals run, Ariza was letting it rain and was a huge X-Factor.

The problem there is that the Warriors this year are 4th in points in the paint per game and 2 of the 3 teams ahead of them have losing records. If the Warriors are the 2nd best team in the playoffs at points in the paint are they still "a jump shooting team"?

IndyRealist
02-03-2016, 05:19 PM
The problem there is that the Warriors this year are 4th in points in the paint per game and 2 of the 3 teams ahead of them have losing records. If the Warriors are the 2nd best team in the playoffs at points in the paint are they still "a jump shooting team"?

I don't know the answer, but a counting stat (ppg in the paint) probably isn't the best way to look at it.

Scoots
02-03-2016, 07:56 PM
I don't know the answer, but a counting stat (ppg in the paint) probably isn't the best way to look at it.

Yeah, but the simple point is that the Warriors score a significant portion of their points inside already so reducing them to "a jump shooting team" doesn't tell the whole story either. I fully acknowledge that they get more point paints because of pace and they get inside points not by overpowering people but by movement and the threat of the jump shot.

What lay-people still seem to miss is that the Warriors are good on offense most of the time but they are only great on offense when they are great on defense first. And unlike a jump shot, defense can always show up, and movement can always be done, so the Warriors are not so subject to just "getting cold".

ewing
02-04-2016, 09:29 AM
Yeah, but the simple point is that the Warriors score a significant portion of their points inside already so reducing them to "a jump shooting team" doesn't tell the whole story either. I fully acknowledge that they get more point paints because of pace and they get inside points not by overpowering people but by movement and the threat of the jump shot.

What lay-people still seem to miss is that the Warriors are good on offense most of the time but they are only great on offense when they are great on defense first. And unlike a jump shot, defense can always show up, and movement can always be done, so the Warriors are not so subject to just "getting cold".


I think the you "cant win as a jump shooting team" comes from the idea that when the game grinds you aren't going to get uncontested Js and you are going to need to take someone. Historically that has meant posting up or driving past someone. That is changing some now. It was always BS though. A good look is a good look

Scoots
02-04-2016, 09:39 AM
I think the you "cant win as a jump shooting team" comes from the idea that when the game grinds you aren't going to get uncontested Js and you are going to need to take someone. Historically that has meant posting up or driving past someone. That is changing some now. It was always BS though. A good look is a good look
There is some truth to all truisms though, and if a team that plays with pace misses enough shots early they would historically fall behind enough they would start pressing and the whole gameplan would fall apart. The warriors seem resistant to that though through having enough players capable of making shots (see thread title) and because they are better at d than any team in nba history that play at this pace. Also Curry seems immune to pressure.

Don't get me wrong the warriors are not invincible they are just very unlikely to lose multiple games in a short time.