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View Full Version : Punching people: How good do you have to be for it not to matter that much?



JasonJohnHorn
01-31-2016, 06:46 PM
It is widely known that MJ punched Kerr in practice years ago. See below to read more if you like.

Nobody ever suggested trading MJ, and what's more, they didn't even discuss trading Kerr.

When Kobe 'allegedly' punched Samaki Walker, nobody mentioned a trade and Phil Jackson just dismissed it a juvenile stuff.

Now that Blake Griffin punched a friend/equipment manager (or trainer?), people are talking up a storm about trading him.

Now, Griffin's case may have been more extreme, but this begs the question: how good does somebody have to be for this not to be something that the team won't be willing to work through?

Do you think it's fair that Griffin is getting this kind of attention? Do you think Jordan and Kobe should have been more heavily criticized at the time?




Sources:

The Source's account on the Kobe situation:
http://thesource.com/2016/01/26/kobe-bryant-allegedly-sucker-punched-teammate-over-100-debt/

Kerr's account on Jordan punching him:
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2012/06/21/steve-kerr-recalls-the-time-jordan-punched-him-at-practice/

Jordan's account of punching Kerr:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpCHBJgzV-g

joedaheights
01-31-2016, 07:21 PM
Blake griffin is a joke compared to superstars

PhillyFaninLA
01-31-2016, 07:40 PM
WTF the wrong with you....the act is the act, it doesn't matter who does it.....no, you cannot be above assault, rape, or any other crime.

valade16
01-31-2016, 08:22 PM
WTF the wrong with you....the act is the act, it doesn't matter who does it.....no, you cannot be above assault, rape, or any other crime.

You SHOULD not be above assault, rape, etc. But in real life if you're good enough; you are.

Big Ben basically shrugged off 2 rape allegations. Jameis Winston was the #1 overall pick after a rape allegation. Kobe is getting standing ovations all around the country with his past rape allegation.

If you're good enough (and rich enough) a lot of people will excuse your behavior.

People still listen to Michael Jackson's music.

IBleedPurple
01-31-2016, 08:25 PM
You SHOULD not be above assault, rape, etc. But in real life if you're good enough; you are.

Big Ben basically shrugged off 2 rape allegations. Jameis Winston was the #1 overall pick after a rape allegation. Kobe is getting standing ovations all around the country with his past rape allegation.

If you're good enough (and rich enough) a lot of people will excuse your behavior.

People still listen to Michael Jackson's music.Well said.

Tony_Starks
01-31-2016, 08:30 PM
Blake Griffin.




Should never be mentioned in the same sentence as Kobe or MJ.

jerellh528
01-31-2016, 08:47 PM
Not condoning punching or whatever. But punching a teammate is slightly less worse than punching team staff imo, intrateam scuffles are probably not super uncommon. The biggest factor against griffin is the other two didn't put thies teams in direct jeopardy for their actions by breaking their hands and missing months of time because of it. When that guy punched geno smith and caused him to miss the season, he was released immediately..so I guess what comes from the punch is worse than the action itself.

Vee-Rex
01-31-2016, 08:48 PM
You SHOULD not be above assault, rape, etc. But in real life if you're good enough; you are.

Big Ben basically shrugged off 2 rape allegations. Jameis Winston was the #1 overall pick after a rape allegation. Kobe is getting standing ovations all around the country with his past rape allegation.

If you're good enough (and rich enough) a lot of people will excuse your behavior.

People still listen to Michael Jackson's music.

Your point is true but the examples you used are poor. There was enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that Kobe's "victim" was lying.

Michael Jackson's cases were deemed to be BS too.

I hate rape as much as anyone, but when we expect consequences for athletes or anyone who was falsely accused then the line needs to be drawn (notice I said nothing about Big Ben).

IndyRealist
01-31-2016, 09:33 PM
I think there is a perceived difference between assault behind closed doors, in practice or whatever, and in public with witnesses. Obviously there shouldn't be, and I'm not saying if MJ decked Luc Longley at a Cubs game they would have traded Jordan, but obviously people think there is more need to react to what Griffin did because it was public.

beasted86
01-31-2016, 09:51 PM
You SHOULD not be above assault, rape, etc. But in real life if you're good enough; you are.

Big Ben basically shrugged off 2 rape allegations. Jameis Winston was the #1 overall pick after a rape allegation. Kobe is getting standing ovations all around the country with his past rape allegation.

If you're good enough (and rich enough) a lot of people will excuse your behavior.

People still listen to Michael Jackson's music.

What's with your using rape accusations without any conviction or penalty? Use Jason Kidd's domestic violence or something else.

Hawkeye15
01-31-2016, 10:03 PM
WTF the wrong with you....the act is the act, it doesn't matter who does it.....no, you cannot be above assault, rape, or any other crime.

you must not know of the NFL

Hawkeye15
01-31-2016, 10:03 PM
getting in a fight isn't assault btw. Two different things that can merge depending....

valade16
01-31-2016, 10:08 PM
What's with your using rape accusations without any conviction or penalty? Use Jason Kidd's domestic violence or something else.

I used rape because the poster specifically said rape.

But if you still are under the delusion that no conviction = innocent I want to throw two names out there: O.J. Simpson and Bill Cosby.

Not saying any of the people I named actually are guilty, but I think it's naive to think their fame and wealth wasn't a factor in their outcomes.

Kyben36
01-31-2016, 10:59 PM
who said he isnt going to get in to trouble, he is injured, no need to rush for a suspension, probably going through procedure.

Laker Legend42
01-31-2016, 11:08 PM
It is widely known that MJ punched Kerr in practice years ago. See below to read more if you like.

Nobody ever suggested trading MJ, and what's more, they didn't even discuss trading Kerr.

When Kobe 'allegedly' punched Samaki Walker, nobody mentioned a trade and Phil Jackson just dismissed it a juvenile stuff.

Now that Blake Griffin punched a friend/equipment manager (or trainer?), people are talking up a storm about trading him.

Now, Griffin's case may have been more extreme, but this begs the question: how good does somebody have to be for this not to be something that the team won't be willing to work through?

Do you think it's fair that Griffin is getting this kind of attention? Do you think Jordan and Kobe should have been more heavily criticized at the time?




Sources:

The Source's account on the Kobe situation:
http://thesource.com/2016/01/26/kobe-bryant-allegedly-sucker-punched-teammate-over-100-debt/

Kerr's account on Jordan punching him:
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2012/06/21/steve-kerr-recalls-the-time-jordan-punched-him-at-practice/

Jordan's account of punching Kerr:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpCHBJgzV-gsamaki walker just did an interview about the issue he had with Kobe. He said it was over a team bet (100$ per person) he said he thought he had 48 hours to pay and then he got stewie griffined by Kobe.

IBleedPurple
02-01-2016, 03:28 AM
Your point is true but the examples you used are poor. There was enough circumstantial evidence to suggest that Kobe's "victim" was lying.

Michael Jackson's cases were deemed to be BS too.

I hate rape as much as anyone, but when we expect consequences for athletes or anyone who was falsely accused then the line needs to be drawn (notice I said nothing about Big Ben).Probably why he offered 350k in quiet money within 2 months of ONE of the accusations :laugh2:

You are wrong.

Gander13SM
02-01-2016, 05:27 AM
Probably why he offered 350k in quiet money within 2 months of ONE of the accusations :laugh2:

You are wrong.

Wasn't the case dismissed due to lack of evidence? In which case he's right.

IndyRealist
02-01-2016, 10:08 AM
First, I want to apologize directly to the young woman involved in this incident. I want to apologize to her for my behavior that night and for the consequences she has suffered in the past year. Although this year has been incredibly difficult for me personally, I can only imagine the pain she has had to endure. I also want to apologize to her parents and family members, and to my family and friends and supporters, and to the citizens of Eagle, Colo.

I also want to make it clear that I do not question the motives of this young woman. No money has been paid to this woman. She has agreed that this statement will not be used against me in the civil case. Although I truly believe this encounter between us was consensual, I recognize now that she did not and does not view this incident the same way I did. After months of reviewing discovery, listening to her attorney, and even her testimony in person, I now understand how she feels that she did not consent to this encounter.
http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/news/story?id=1872928

Teufelshunde4
02-01-2016, 10:58 AM
Probably why he offered 350k in quiet money within 2 months of ONE of the accusations :laugh2:

You are wrong.

Wasn't the case dismissed due to lack of evidence? In which case he's right.

There was more then a single case vs Jackson. If I remember right in mid 90s he paid 12 or 13 million to make a case go away.

beasted86
02-01-2016, 08:45 PM
I used rape because the poster specifically said rape.

But if you still are under the delusion that no conviction = innocent I want to throw two names out there: O.J. Simpson and Bill Cosby.

Not saying any of the people I named actually are guilty, but I think it's naive to think their fame and wealth wasn't a factor in their outcomes.

Nah, I don't think it's naive at all.

I could write a 100 page thesis on what I believe is wrong with the police/military, justice, and prison systems, but overall I believe they err on the side of killing/convicting/arresting more innocent people than letting criminals walk away scot-free.

If many of the guys you mention couldn't even get a mere arrest, it's more probable than possible there wasn't any sort of proof at all and I can't just assume they are guilty of anything because of biased media given info.

beasted86
02-01-2016, 08:58 PM
Probably why he offered 350k in quiet money within 2 months of ONE of the accusations :laugh2:

You are wrong.
Have you ever worked at a company as an employee or even just witnessed something as a outsider customer where you saw that a customer was completely wrong but the manager caved in and just gave them what they wanted to shut them up?

It's called the cost of doing business.

The basic premise is to consider how much damage will it do to your image/brand when there are people (such as yourself) who tend to believe what's in front of them even when they don't know the details.

So, for me, hush money is never an admission of guilt.

JasonJohnHorn
02-01-2016, 11:02 PM
WTF the wrong with you....the act is the act, it doesn't matter who does it.....no, you cannot be above assault, rape, or any other crime.

Seems like you missed the point here.

I'm trying to draw attention to the fact that people get upset about it when one guy does it, but if another guy is a legend, nobody GAF.

IndyRealist
02-01-2016, 11:27 PM
Nah, I don't think it's naive at all.

I could write a 100 page thesis on what I believe is wrong with the police/military, justice, and prison systems, but overall I believe they err on the side of killing/convicting/arresting more innocent people than letting criminals walk away scot-free.

If many of the guys you mention couldn't even get a mere arrest, it's more probable than possible there wasn't any sort of proof at all and I can't just assume they are guilty of anything because of biased media given info.

Let me get this straight. You are saying that there is enough wrong with the justice system to fill a 100 page thesis paper, that the system is inept and/or corrupt, but you don't think one of those things could possibly be preferential treatment of the wealthy and famous? Because on one hand you're saying the justice system is massively flawed, and on the other you're saying that justice system is more than likely correct.

TheMightyHumph
02-02-2016, 12:34 AM
It is widely known that MJ punched Kerr in practice years ago. See below to read more if you like.

Nobody ever suggested trading MJ, and what's more, they didn't even discuss trading Kerr.

When Kobe 'allegedly' punched Samaki Walker, nobody mentioned a trade and Phil Jackson just dismissed it a juvenile stuff.

Now that Blake Griffin punched a friend/equipment manager (or trainer?), people are talking up a storm about trading him.

Now, Griffin's case may have been more extreme, but this begs the question: how good does somebody have to be for this not to be something that the team won't be willing to work through?

Do you think it's fair that Griffin is getting this kind of attention? Do you think Jordan and Kobe should have been more heavily criticized at the time?




Sources:

The Source's account on the Kobe situation:
http://thesource.com/2016/01/26/kobe-bryant-allegedly-sucker-punched-teammate-over-100-debt/

Kerr's account on Jordan punching him:
http://nba.nbcsports.com/2012/06/21/steve-kerr-recalls-the-time-jordan-punched-him-at-practice/

Jordan's account of punching Kerr:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpCHBJgzV-g

Is this a serious question? Blake punched a trainer and BROKE HIS HAND.

The broken hand is what makes it a media issue. Let the media do it's duty maintaining their God-Like Ability to TELL US what is important enough to be important.

This is Stan Martin, reporting from Reality, USA. And now back to Giselle in the studio, to tell our viewers what the weather holds in store for us. Giselle?........................

LanceUpperCut
02-02-2016, 12:45 AM
WTF the wrong with you....the act is the act, it doesn't matter who does it.....no, you cannot be above assault, rape, or any other crime.

You SHOULD not be above assault, rape, etc. But in real life if you're good enough; you are.

Big Ben basically shrugged off 2 rape allegations. Jameis Winston was the #1 overall pick after a rape allegation. Kobe is getting standing ovations all around the country with his past rape allegation.

If you're good enough (and rich enough) a lot of people will excuse your behavior.

People still listen to Michael Jackson's music.

And just cause theirs an allegation let's not assume these guys are guilty

beasted86
02-02-2016, 07:41 AM
Let me get this straight. You are saying that there is enough wrong with the justice system to fill a 100 page thesis paper, that the system is inept and/or corrupt, but you don't think one of those things could possibly be preferential treatment of the wealthy and famous? Because on one hand you're saying the justice system is massively flawed, and on the other you're saying that justice system is more than likely correct.

The go to default is to arrest or imprison. They aren't in the business of letting criminals walk away... It's literally bad for business (see: money).

I mean seriously... When has anyone ever won a false arrest trial against the police department? Basically never. Maybe they follow the 'cost of doing business' protocol and give a pay out (which is expected and fully planned for in police department budgets, and avoids a trial where they are forced to make information public).

If they couldn't even arrest someone there was so poor of a cause or proof of anything.

valade16
02-02-2016, 11:41 AM
The go to default is to arrest or imprison. They aren't in the business of letting criminals walk away... It's literally bad for business (see: money).

I mean seriously... When has anyone ever won a false arrest trial against the police department? Basically never. Maybe they follow the 'cost of doing business' protocol and give a pay out (which is expected and fully planned for in police department budgets, and avoids a trial where they are forced to make information public).

If they couldn't even arrest someone there was so poor of a cause or proof of anything.

But you're only looking at one side of the coin (and in this case the wrong one). Because there is a huge business revolved entirely around letting criminals walk... it's called defense lawyers. They get millions per case because they are so good at getting people to walk. These lawyers are hired well before the trial because of their ability to keep people from getting arrested.

As for the idea that people don't win false arrest cases, that's just wrong. Many people win false arrest cases, this is from literally the first page of google:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2008-06-13/news/0806130382_1_chicago-police-false-arrest-peace-officer

http://www.copblock.org/84071/large-settlements-for-false-arrest/

http://www.dailylocal.com/article/DL/20141231/NEWS/141239962

I don't know whether any of them were guilty or not, I'm saying assuming a lack of arrest means they are not-guilty is faulty logic.

As you say money talks, and there is far more money on the side of defense than there is for the government.

beasted86
02-02-2016, 12:59 PM
But you're only looking at one side of the coin (and in this case the wrong one). Because there is a huge business revolved entirely around letting criminals walk... it's called defense lawyers. They get millions per case because they are so good at getting people to walk. These lawyers are hired well before the trial because of their ability to keep people from getting arrested.

As for the idea that people don't win false arrest cases, that's just wrong. Many people win false arrest cases, this is from literally the first page of google:

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2008-06-13/news/0806130382_1_chicago-police-false-arrest-peace-officer

http://www.copblock.org/84071/large-settlements-for-false-arrest/

http://www.dailylocal.com/article/DL/20141231/NEWS/141239962

I don't know whether any of them were guilty or not, I'm saying assuming a lack of arrest means they are not-guilty is faulty logic.

As you say money talks, and there is far more money on the side of defense than there is for the government.

It was hyperbole speaking about false arrest cases. Further, false arrest and wrongful conviction/false imprisonment are separate issues.

The laws are setup for the large majority of false arrest cases to fail. Police forces have a set aside budgets to also settle these claims before they even get to trial to avoid the public disclosure. I got this info first hand from a former police officer.

Defense lawyers can't overcome probable cause which is the crutch the whole police system uses to overcome false arrest cases if it even comes to that. Like I said, I personally believe the default is to arrest and let the DA office worry about if there is enough evidence to prosecute. There are tons of cases every year that end in an arrest with no charges filed, so I firmly believe this to be the default. So if there isn't even enough probable cause to issue an arrest, I feel confident there just wasn't any evidence at all, only he/she said.

Scoots
02-02-2016, 01:33 PM
Have you ever worked at a company as an employee or even just witnessed something as a outsider customer where you saw that a customer was completely wrong but the manager caved in and just gave them what they wanted to shut them up?

It's called the cost of doing business.

The basic premise is to consider how much damage will it do to your image/brand when there are people (such as yourself) who tend to believe what's in front of them even when they don't know the details.

So, for me, hush money is never an admission of guilt.

Yup. You figure out the hard costsand the soft costs of fighting, figure out what it will cost to just make it go away ... follow the side with the lowest $. The only thing you may be guilty of is not fighting for what's "right" by paying someone off ... or you could be totally guilty and can afford to pay it away.

valade16
02-02-2016, 02:06 PM
It was hyperbole speaking about false arrest cases. Further, false arrest and wrongful conviction/false imprisonment are separate issues.

The laws are setup for the large majority of false arrest cases to fail. Police forces have a set aside budgets to also settle these claims before they even get to trial to avoid the public disclosure. I got this info first hand from a former police officer.

Defense lawyers can't overcome probable cause which is the crutch the whole police system uses to overcome false arrest cases if it even comes to that. Like I said, I personally believe the default is to arrest and let the DA office worry about if there is enough evidence to prosecute. There are tons of cases every year that end in an arrest with no charges filed, so I firmly believe this to be the default. So if there isn't even enough probable cause to issue an arrest, I feel confident there just wasn't any evidence at all, only he/she said.

Do you feel the same about Bill Cosby? According to your logic he is confidently not-guilty because he was never charged for any events.

Scoots
02-02-2016, 02:25 PM
Do you feel the same about Bill Cosby? According to your logic he is confidently not-guilty because he was never charged for any events.

I didn't see beasted say "not guilty" ... merely that an arrest implies a level of evidence.

That has no bearing on his guilt or innocence.

When I was a kid I stole some gum from a store. I was not arrested as it wasn't "worth" it. I was guilty. Nobody was paid off.

The law and society are full of gray areas and loop holes.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
02-02-2016, 02:28 PM
Another Blake thread. :eyebrow:

beasted86
02-02-2016, 02:29 PM
Do you feel the same about Bill Cosby? According to your logic he is confidently not-guilty because he was never charged for any events.

Sure. I have a hard time believing him to be guilty from an outsider perspective with what details are out there. If he was guilty there was simply no evidence in the majority of the claims.

I can also say with probably 95% surety that nothing comes of any criminal case against him because even the one leading to the arrest seems very weak.

valade16
02-02-2016, 04:33 PM
Sure. I have a hard time believing him to be guilty from an outsider perspective with what details are out there. If he was guilty there was simply no evidence in the majority of the claims.

I can also say with probably 95% surety that nothing comes of any criminal case against him because even the one leading to the arrest seems very weak.

1. At least you're consistent.

2. The problem you haven't taken into account (and I don't fault you, unless you are actively involved in these cases most people don't realize this), rape accusations are the hardest thing to prove. You say it all comes down to he said/she said, and that's very accurate.

Outside of a written confession or video or audio evidence where someone clearly says no there is almost no evidence that proves rape by itself. This is a common thing people don't understand. I've been involved in cases where we had DNA evidence of semen in the alleged victim's vagina, where we had vaginal scarring. Didn't lead to a conviction because you can get both of those from consensual sex.

It's one of the toughest cases to prove from an investigatory standpoint.

alkalinesolo
02-02-2016, 04:45 PM
Probably why he offered 350k in quiet money within 2 months of ONE of the accusations :laugh2:

You are wrong.

Because 350k is cheaper than an expensive and public trial?