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View Full Version : Does anyone still try "mj is not the greatest" arguments?



joedaheights
01-26-2016, 12:43 AM
What are some of the worst you've heard?

Scoots
01-26-2016, 01:10 AM
I don't believe in that stuff. MJ was the greatest for his generation. Out of his generation ... MJ is immaterial.

joedaheights
01-26-2016, 01:17 AM
I don't believe in that stuff. MJ was the greatest for his generation. Out of his generation ... MJ is immaterial.

Meh cop out. The whole "you can't compare eras" line is for those who lack logical reasoning.

It's not that he is the greatest... It's the terrible arguments I've read as to why

Scoots
01-26-2016, 01:26 AM
Meh cop out. The whole "you can't compare eras" line is for those who lack logical reasoning.

It's not that he is the greatest... It's the terrible arguments I've read as to why
He was the greatest in my bball watching life but people i respect disagree and i don't know enough about the game before i was born to argue the point.

It's like the 96 bulls vs 16 warriors. The game isn't the same anymore. With today's rules and officiating the warriors might blow them out, but the 96 bulls were built for different rules with players coming out of college with different skills and different priorities. It's really pointless to compare them as if they are playing the same game.

ewing
01-26-2016, 02:43 AM
he is hands down the greatest team sports player i have ever seen and its not close. lets put it this way, starting a basketball team and not stating with MJ if you have the choice is like drafting Darko

PowerHouse
01-26-2016, 02:54 AM
he is hands down the greatest team sports player i have ever seen and its not close. lets put it this way, starting a basketball team and stating with MJ is like drafting Darko

I'll put him down as the greatest NBA player ever but Im not sure MJ dominated his sport at the same level Gretzky dominated his. Interesting to think about though.

Tony_Starks
01-26-2016, 03:15 AM
Never subscribed to the notion of MJ being indisputable untouchable GOAT. The majority of fans who push that either started basketball by watching him or even worse didn't even really see him. Sort of the equivalent of a kid today raised on Kobe saying he's the best ever.

At any rate in the great grand scheme of basketball a legit argument can be made for maybe 3 players as the greatest ever IMO...

IKnowHoops
01-26-2016, 03:16 AM
I'll put him down as the greatest NBA player ever but Im not sure MJ dominated his sport at the same level Gretzky dominated his. Interesting to think about though.

I disagree. There are many who would say Mario was as good or better than Wayne. Even though there are some that say Bron, Wilt, Kareem, there is certainly much less of that than there is for the Mario Wayne argument. I bet at least 30% of hockey fans would take Mario over Gretzky if you ask who was better. I think if you compare any one player to Jordan, your not gonna get more than 10-15% for the other guy.

MTar786
01-26-2016, 04:41 AM
i think curry = GOAT

DR_1
01-26-2016, 11:12 AM
I disagree. There are many who would say Mario was as good or better than Wayne. Even though there are some that say Bron, Wilt, Kareem, there is certainly much less of that than there is for the Mario Wayne argument. I bet at least 30% of hockey fans would take Mario over Gretzky if you ask who was better. I think if you compare any one player to Jordan, your not gonna get more than 10-15% for the other guy.

Who other than LeBron fans says LeBron is goat?

tredigs
01-26-2016, 11:35 AM
I'll put him down as the greatest NBA player ever but Im not sure MJ dominated his sport at the same level Gretzky dominated his. Interesting to think about though.

Really? Just eye test wise, I always thought Mario was better. He just couldn't stay on the ice long enough to rack up the stats/accolades. A lot of hockey fans will also maintain that either Bobby Orr or even Gordie Howe are king.

MJ and 2000's Bonds (offensively) are the two most dominant team sports players I've seen. Those are the only two players in sport that I have watched where you have a visceral *knowing* that they will dominate the game they are in. Really tough to explain that thought in words, but that's the level they were operating at.

Hawkeye15
01-26-2016, 11:49 AM
Really? Just eye test wise, I always thought Mario was better. He just couldn't stay on the ice long enough to rack up the stats/accolades. A lot of hockey fans will also maintain that either Bobby Orr or even Gordie Howe are king.

MJ and 2000's Bonds (offensively) are the two most dominant team sports players I've seen. Those are the only two players in sport that I have watched where you have a visceral *knowing* that they will dominate the game they are in. Really tough to explain that thought in words, but that's the level they were operating at.

actually MJ and Gretzky are the only 2 of the major sports where it will be in the high 90% range when asking GOAT. You will get those who are trying to go against the grain, or simply don't understand the game that well, but they are pretty much undisputed, or as close as it gets.

Pierzynski4Prez
01-26-2016, 12:03 PM
Any of you guys ever hear of someone named Babe Ruth?

tredigs
01-26-2016, 12:13 PM
actually MJ and Gretzky are the only 2 of the major sports where it will be in the high 90% range when asking GOAT. You will get those who are trying to go against the grain, or simply don't understand the game that well, but they are pretty much undisputed, or as close as it gets.

I know that, but Gretzky's title as GOAT is accolade based more than skill based, though. Not to say he wasn't top 5 in terms of skill as well, but I don't think many who watched Mario and Gretzky go head to head would walk away saying Gretzky is the clear better player. I actually think more people at the time felt Mario was the more skilled/dominant of the two. Didn't hurt his #'s that he played on MUCH better teams as well. With MJ in his prime, there was no question who the alpha on the floor was at all times.

ManningToTyree
01-26-2016, 12:21 PM
I've had a friend debate it's Lebron with me. It divulged into personal attacks and my other friend wound up choke slamming him because he was threatening me lol. Oh drunken college debates lol

My grandfather claims the Big O was the greatest he ever saw.

Once people believe something they have a hard time backing down from that belief. I won't say nobody can ever touch MJ but boy would it be a tough resume to top.

Big Zo
01-26-2016, 12:27 PM
Mike James was definitely the GOAT.

mrblisterdundee
01-26-2016, 12:52 PM
I think Stephen Curry has a shot at being the GOAT, if he keeps up his historically great shooting and keeps collecting championships. With his style, he could still be great 10 years from now. And if the Warriors can keep their core together, I don't see why they can't be a contender for just as long.

Scoots
01-26-2016, 01:45 PM
I disagree. There are many who would say Mario was as good or better than Wayne. Even though there are some that say Bron, Wilt, Kareem, there is certainly much less of that than there is for the Mario Wayne argument. I bet at least 30% of hockey fans would take Mario over Gretzky if you ask who was better. I think if you compare any one player to Jordan, your not gonna get more than 10-15% for the other guy.

I lived just outside Pittsburgh when Mario was at his best ... he was awesome no doubt and might have challenged some of the Wayne's records had he stayed healthy. But he didn't. Peak to peak Mario maybe has him, but based on careers Gretzky is truly the Great One.

For most of my life Jim Brown was my "greatest football player ever" but Rice eventually overtook him by being great for much much longer. Peak to peak nobody was better than Jim Brown, but overall Rice wins.

To me MJ is the best because he won 6 straight titles and he really was awesome to watch ... but I don't know enough about the greats before Magic/Bird since they were rookies in my 2nd year watching the NBA.

Can't be conclusive about MJ ... like 99% there though.

Hawkeye15
01-26-2016, 01:58 PM
I know that, but Gretzky's title as GOAT is accolade based more than skill based, though. Not to say he wasn't top 5 in terms of skill as well, but I don't think many who watched Mario and Gretzky go head to head would walk away saying Gretzky is the clear better player. I actually think more people at the time felt Mario was the more skilled/dominant of the two. Didn't hurt his #'s that he played on MUCH better teams as well. With MJ in his prime, there was no question who the alpha on the floor was at all times.

Gretzky's numbers also blow everyone else away. I am not going to pretend I know much about hockey, but the dude's resume simply pile drives everyone else.

The only time I watched hockey was during the Gretzky/Mario days, and Mario's best days were as Gretzky was tailing off his peak years. I am not going into a debate I am not good at, but Gretzky is absolutely widely considered the GOAT in hockey. That was my only point.

JasonJohnHorn
01-26-2016, 02:17 PM
I believe there was a strong case at the time to suggest that Hakeem was the best player, the problem is that it is so hard to comparing people from one position to another, and additionally it hard to compare players from one generation to another.


Wilt. Kareem. Anybody would make a legit case for either player.

Bird? Magic. Absolutely. Though certainly less obvious choices in the minds of many.

Hakeem? I doubt few would agree with me, but when you look at what he did on both ends of the floor, and how dominant he was on both sides of the basketball, it seems pretty clear that you'd be hard pressed to argue that anybody was better than Hakeem in his prime (his last couple years he fell off).

Today? I don't think I've seen a player since Jordan that I would say is better, though I'd say LBJ is pretty close, and Duncan is certainly a person you could fairly claim is as good or at least deserves to be in the conversation.

As for Curry... I need to see him play like this before I put him in a class with Jordan. I would agree that the level he is playing this year (and last) is on a par with Jordan at his finest, but Jordan came out of the gate playing like that, and maintained it til he was 35. Curry took a few years to get to that level, and we've yet to see how long he can maintain it (though I expect him to playing as well as he has this year until at least 32 barring injury).

There is a small group of guys in the conversation: Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, LBJ, Duncan, and we may include Curry in there soon.

Anybody who can't take the time to hear out an argument for those guys as the best player of all time has confirmation bias.

But yeah.... of those guys, none played the same position as Jordan, and several played in different generations, so it is really hard to compare.

AIRMAR72
01-26-2016, 03:50 PM
Meh cop out. The whole "you can't compare eras" line is for those who lack logical reasoning.

It's not that he is the greatest... It's the terrible arguments I've read as to why
The hell you posting Michael Jordan is the greatest in any era and you can take that to the bank and get your money

Tony_Starks
01-26-2016, 04:57 PM
I believe there was a strong case at the time to suggest that Hakeem was the best player, the problem is that it is so hard to comparing people from one position to another, and additionally it hard to compare players from one generation to another.


Wilt. Kareem. Anybody would make a legit case for either player.

Bird? Magic. Absolutely. Though certainly less obvious choices in the minds of many.

Hakeem? I doubt few would agree with me, but when you look at what he did on both ends of the floor, and how dominant he was on both sides of the basketball, it seems pretty clear that you'd be hard pressed to argue that anybody was better than Hakeem in his prime (his last couple years he fell off).

Today? I don't think I've seen a player since Jordan that I would say is better, though I'd say LBJ is pretty close, and Duncan is certainly a person you could fairly claim is as good or at least deserves to be in the conversation.

As for Curry... I need to see him play like this before I put him in a class with Jordan. I would agree that the level he is playing this year (and last) is on a par with Jordan at his finest, but Jordan came out of the gate playing like that, and maintained it til he was 35. Curry took a few years to get to that level, and we've yet to see how long he can maintain it (though I expect him to playing as well as he has this year until at least 32 barring injury).

There is a small group of guys in the conversation: Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Hakeem, LBJ, Duncan, and we may include Curry in there soon.

Anybody who can't take the time to hear out an argument for those guys as the best player of all time has confirmation bias.

But yeah.... of those guys, none played the same position as Jordan, and several played in different generations, so it is really hard to compare.


This is pretty much where I stand.

I don't see why it has to be so blasphemous for someone to have Kareem,for example, as the best ever,

As you said, a legit case can be made.

Especially when you factor in things like competition, rules, etc....

Gander13SM
01-26-2016, 06:22 PM
Greatest player of his generation for sure.

I don't do all time lists. Game has changed too much.

But if I did. I would have MJ as the greatest scorer. But I doubt I would have him as the greatest player. There's a ton of romanticising and revisionist history when people discuss that era and the 90s in general.

Vinylman
01-26-2016, 06:47 PM
he is hands down the greatest team sports player i have ever seen and its not close. lets put it this way, starting a basketball team and stating with MJ is like drafting Darko

Gretzky says hello

ewing
01-26-2016, 07:34 PM
Gretzky says hello

she's hot.

DboneG
01-27-2016, 03:40 PM
There first has to be a criteria ...Championships? Sheer dominance? Statistics? This debate could be endless. To me everything matters! In my opinion there is no greatest player in the NBA. There is maybe 5 guys that share that title.


Wilt.....just look at the record book.
Russell....11 titles, hella defense,
MJ...awersome!
Dr. J....his best days were in the ABA, held it down in two leagues.
Kareem...best shot ever, 6 MVP's, longevity.

CardinalRed24
01-27-2016, 04:16 PM
MJ is the goat without a doubt in my mind, however, regardless how anyone see's it, Magic and Kobe are not too far behind. In fact, I don't think we'll see another individual come nearly as close as Mamba did over the course of his career. Not for a very long time IMO.

Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson
Kobe Bryant
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Bill Russell
Tim Duncan
Wilt Chamberlain
Oscar Robertson
Shaquille O'Neal
Larry Bird
Honorable mention: Hakeem Olajuwon, Karl Malone and Jerry West.

LBJ by the end of his career will most likely just crack the bottom half of my top 10.
As far as today's NBA I'd say maybe Steph Curry, Kevin Durant and possibly Anthony Davis are the select few players in the league today that would have a chance at one day possibly cracking my top 10 or at least come close.

My bad for going a bit off topic. Couldn't resist thinking out loud.

RowBTrice
01-27-2016, 04:44 PM
Never subscribed to the notion of MJ being indisputable untouchable GOAT. The majority of fans who push that either started basketball by watching him or even worse didn't even really see him. Sort of the equivalent of a kid today raised on Kobe saying he's the best ever.

At any rate in the great grand scheme of basketball a legit argument can be made for maybe 3 players as the greatest ever IMO...

NOBODY says that Kobe is the best ever. So I don't see a correlation.

europagnpilgrim
02-07-2016, 02:59 AM
its easily a debate since greatest is different then say the best or most dominant, while I combine the latter two and it carries more weight than who is the greatest

for instance Jordan won his first title in season 7 while others won earlier while dominating so does that make them greater? or more dominant-better? Jordan won 6 titles but in like a 15 year span while Russell won 11 in 13 year span, so who was greater since they both anchored dynasties as alpha dog? before Jordan got his titles he couldn't make the finals until all the powerhouses from both conferences got injured and old while wilt had to go up against that stacked Celtics team and going to game 7 four times and 6 games two other times and faced the knicks as a older player with lakers, while early on Jordan got swept by Bird Celtics and was being ousted by bucks and later those piston squads later on until he finally broke thru in 91'. Magic won his rookie year and went to 9 finals in 12 year span so does that make him greater or more dominant or playing for a more stacked squad? hakeem went to finals in two different decades so does that make him greater or more dominant? LeBron and The Answer carried lesser talent to finals in lesser years than it took Jordan and then LeBron went and played with better talent in Miami then back to Cleveland where he has went to 6 finals in a 9 year span, only magic and Russell did that more from my memory but I could be wrong.

Jordan is one of the best most dominant on the court, its his off court impact combining the commercials and merchandise and accolades as a whole that I feel gets the greatest nod, but that's different than saying who is the flat out best most dominant as a solo act since its players who have done more with less while putting up insane numbers to back it up. both of Jordan 3 peats had expansion teams which watered the league down and after he broke thru in 91' he owned the refs and got a lot of phantom calls, that means a lot when pertaining to greatness(clout). his impact when he first retired resulted in two less games won the next season while pippen was like runner up nba mvp to hakeem, Jordan didn't get out of the first round until pippen got there so what happen to his greatness then? he was a volume scorer who shot 50%(5/10) so everybody who loves efficiency and PER are quick to go bananas like that's the holy grail and then combine his 6 titles to act like its over, not realizing he didn't play just 6 seasons

Jordan never was the best 3 point shooter or purest shooter but he was tenacious on defense(when focused) and was a offensive juggernaut and come fly with me entertainer and a good rebounder for a guard, but I could name plenty of those in many eras. Jordan never led the league in assist and improved on his mid range game as he got older, nothing special

Jordan is the media GOAT no doubt, but in barbershops and gym and park debates a lot of others feel differently from old school to new school

as a solo act wilt may have not been greater but he sure was more dominant, better(impact), others also

ewing
02-07-2016, 08:47 AM
i think its a flat footed European that has never lifted a weight

king4day
02-07-2016, 10:57 AM
If you've watched religiously through the 60's up until now and can vouch for what other all-time greats have done. Then arguments can be made.
I saw much of MJ's era but didn't watch as much as I do now.
I still think MJ is the greatest ever but never saw Russel or Bird play.
He's better than Kobe and LeBron and his rings vouch for it.

I think the better question is, 'Who's the best at each position?'.

No Center should be compared to other positions.

I'd go

Guards
Forwards
Centers

All are debatable because MJ could never do things those big men could do.

Hawkeye15
02-08-2016, 02:09 PM
If you've watched religiously through the 60's up until now and can vouch for what other all-time greats have done. Then arguments can be made.
I saw much of MJ's era but didn't watch as much as I do now.
I still think MJ is the greatest ever but never saw Russel or Bird play.
He's better than Kobe and LeBron and his rings vouch for it.

I think the better question is, 'Who's the best at each position?'.

No Center should be compared to other positions.

I'd go

Guards
Forwards
Centers

All are debatable because MJ could never do things those big men could do.

Jordan
Duncan
KAJ