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View Full Version : Bad rule, bad ref, bad player



Scoots
01-25-2016, 06:11 PM
A couple things drive me nuts watching NBA basketball when the play gets around the basket:

1. A defender puts their hand/forearm on the offensive players hip, the classic know-where-the-player-is-by-using-your-hand, the defenders hand has no effect on the offensive players movement at all, the offensive player goes for a layup/dunk an and 1 foul is called. Should the rule be changed? Should the ref let it go? Should the player stop touching players in the post with their hand/arm altogether?

2. A defender swipes at a ball from beside/behind the offensive player as they go to the basket for a shot, the defender doesn't touch the offensive player, maybe they don't even touch the ball, the ref calls a foul. Should there be a clarification of the the-hand-is-a-part-of-the-ball rule? Should the ref let it go? Should the player stop swiping at the ball of a driving player as it's more often called a foul than let go it seems?

I'm sure there are more ... but these two drive me nuts because defenders keep getting called on these and don't adjust, and the refs keep calling them when replays show that by the letter of the rule they are not nearly all fouls.

Vee-Rex
01-25-2016, 06:34 PM
Some of my pet peeves off the top of my head:

1. Charge rule. I say abolish this entirely. I dislike the fact that a defender can mega-slide into position a millisecond in time and cause an offensive foul. The defender should be contesting the shot. To compensate for this, they can simply just call offensive fouls if the offensive player bulldozes a defender that was immobile.

2. Jumping into a defender to cause an and-one foul. The shooter should only be able to draw a foul if they are shooting with their natural form, not diving into defenders who are in the air to initiate contact.

3. Rule of verticality. Refs continue to fail when a defender jumps straight up yet the ball-handler drives into his torso and initiates contact. I continue to see fouls being called against the defender.

Ball_Out
01-25-2016, 06:40 PM
Some of my pet peeves off the top of my head:

1. Charge rule. I say abolish this entirely. I dislike the fact that a defender can mega-slide into position a millisecond in time and cause an offensive foul. The defender should be contesting the shot. To compensate for this, they can simply just call offensive fouls if the offensive player bulldozes a defender that was immobile.

2. Jumping into a defender to cause an and-one foul. The shooter should only be able to draw a foul if they are shooting with their natural form, not diving into defenders who are in the air to initiate contact.

3. Rule of verticality. Refs continue to fail when a defender jumps straight up yet the ball-handler drives into his torso and initiates contact. I continue to see fouls being called against the defender.

I hate seeing it in action, but its a good rule. A defender shouldn't leave his feet on a close out to defend a jump shot.

1- Hack-a-whoever has to go. The same people saying "the guy should make his free throws", usually are quiet when you bring up the fact that the team should just play defense and stop the guy.

2- Defensive three seconds is kind of dumb now with the way the league is going. You can get rid of that too..

Laker Legend42
01-25-2016, 06:55 PM
1.Bad rule: the double technical. A technical foul usually comes with one free throw. Why not the double tech? One person might miss.
2. Bad ref: Joey Crawford. A few years ago when he basically invited Tim Duncan outside for a fight the NBA let him go. That offseason Tim donaghy was fired for betting on games. In the midst of all of that the nba reinstated him and no one ever questioned it. I think he was gonna spill the beans on the commissioner. I think he goats players into an argument the T's them up.

3. Bad player: NICK YOUNG. I think both he and Javale McGee are the two dumbest players in the NBA. I think Nick young has been envolved in the most loses in the league. He just might be the most untradeable player in the league as well.

tp13baby
01-25-2016, 06:56 PM
Some of my pet peeves off the top of my head:

1. Charge rule. I say abolish this entirely. I dislike the fact that a defender can mega-slide into position a millisecond in time and cause an offensive foul. The defender should be contesting the shot. To compensate for this, they can simply just call offensive fouls if the offensive player bulldozes a defender that was immobile.

2. Jumping into a defender to cause an and-one foul. The shooter should only be able to draw a foul if they are shooting with their natural form, not diving into defenders who are in the air to initiate contact.
3. Rule of verticality. Refs continue to fail when a defender jumps straight up yet the ball-handler drives into his torso and initiates contact. I continue to see fouls being called against the defender.

I like both rules. Why get rid of charging? Its a part of good defense.

Vee-Rex
01-25-2016, 07:12 PM
I like both rules. Why get rid of charging? Its a part of good defense.

How is charging good defense?

Both rules encourage players to game the system. It hurts the integrity of the game when a player places creating contact a higher priority than making the shot, or when a player would rather slide into place to draw a foul than actually contest a shot. Encouraging that is annoying to watch as a fan.

The part of the charge rule I'd like to abolish is the lastmomentslideintoplaceeventhoughtheoffensiveplay ercan'tpossiblychangehismomentum situations. That's when it becomes a matter of gaming the system if that player wasn't naturally there to begin with.

basch152
01-25-2016, 07:42 PM
Some of my pet peeves off the top of my head:

1. Charge rule. I say abolish this entirely. I dislike the fact that a defender can mega-slide into position a millisecond in time and cause an offensive foul. The defender should be contesting the shot. To compensate for this, they can simply just call offensive fouls if the offensive player bulldozes a defender that was immobile.

2. Jumping into a defender to cause an and-one foul. The shooter should only be able to draw a foul if they are shooting with their natural form, not diving into defenders who are in the air to initiate contact.

3. Rule of verticality. Refs continue to fail when a defender jumps straight up yet the ball-handler drives into his torso and initiates contact. I continue to see fouls being called against the defender.

#3 is ABSOLUTLEY the number one thing the NBA needs to focus on.

So tired of seeing a defender go straight up and get called for a foul after the offensive player initiates contact.

lakerfan85
01-25-2016, 08:22 PM
I say just get rid of all fouls..

Redrum187
01-25-2016, 08:23 PM
I hate seeing it in action, but its a good rule. A defender shouldn't leave his feet on a close out to defend a jump shot.

1- Hack-a-whoever has to go. The same people saying "the guy should make his free throws", usually are quiet when you bring up the fact that the team should just play defense and stop the guy.

2- Defensive three seconds is kind of dumb now with the way the league is going. You can get rid of that too..

Isn't it "playing defense" by intentionally fouling a bad free throw shooter? There are a variety of ways to defend...

Ball_Out
01-25-2016, 08:25 PM
Isn't it "playing defense" by intentionally fouling a bad free throw shooter? There are a variety of ways to defend...
That's not playing defense, that's exploiting a silly rule. As a matter of fact, fouling means you can't play Defense. Lol

Redrum187
01-25-2016, 08:28 PM
That's not playing defense, that's exploiting a silly rule. As a matter of fact, fouling means you can't play Defense. Lol

Then putting a guy's hand in front of a shooter's face is not playing defense... it's exploiting a silly rule which allows for the defender to block the shooter's vision with his hand. lol

CHANGO
01-25-2016, 08:43 PM
Bad rule: I hate when a player is dunking or taking a contact layup and uses his hands to protect from contact, I think that should be an offensive foul. If the defender can't put a hand on the attacker, neither can the attacker put a hand on the defender.

Bad rules/refs: When a small player is beating the **** out of a bigger/stronger player and no foul is called, then you see the bigger player take a little swipe at the small player and THAT'S A FLAGRANT CLASS 5 OMG CALL THE POLICE, HE IS SO DIRTY. JVG is always complaining about this and I find myself doing that too in a lot of games.

IndyRealist
01-25-2016, 09:38 PM
A defender puts their hand/forearm on the offensive players hip, the classic know-where-the-player-is-by-using-your-hand, the defenders hand has no effect on the offensive players movement at all, the offensive player goes for a layup/dunk an and 1 foul is called. Should the rule be changed? Should the ref let it go? Should the player stop touching players in the post with their hand/arm altogether?
If you push the shooter, it's a foul. If you contact him with anything other than your single hand/forearm, it's a foul. Most of the time when a foul is called it's pretty reasonable. We're just used to it being a noncall when stars do it.

A defender swipes at a ball from beside/behind the offensive player as they go to the basket for a shot, the defender doesn't touch the offensive player, maybe they don't even touch the ball, the ref calls a foul. Should there be a clarification of the the-hand-is-a-part-of-the-ball rule? Should the ref let it go? Should the player stop swiping at the ball of a driving player as it's more often called a foul than let go it seems?
I don't think this needs clarification. The hand is part of the ball, the wrist and above is not. If you hit his forearm, it's a foul even if your hand hit the ball. 9 times out of 10 that's what I see getting called.

Charge rule. I say abolish this entirely. I dislike the fact that a defender can mega-slide into position a millisecond in time and cause an offensive foul. The defender should be contesting the shot. To compensate for this, they can simply just call offensive fouls if the offensive player bulldozes a defender that was immobile.The defender cannot slide in a millisecond in time and cause an offensive foul. The defender has to have both feet planted to be considered in position. You also seem to think positional defense shouldn't exist, only shot blocking. The Spurs disagree. You defend with your feet first.

Rule of verticality. Refs continue to fail when a defender jumps straight up yet the ball-handler drives into his torso and initiates contact. I continue to see fouls being called against the defender.
It's not just a question of jumping straight up. You also have to keep your arms completely upright and not bring them down on the shooter at all. That's where most players get called.

Defensive three seconds is kind of dumb now with the way the league is going. You can get rid of that too..Defensive 3 seconds keeps the defense from just leaving their center in front of the rim as a goalie and everyone else crowding the 3pt line.

the double technical. A technical foul usually comes with one free throw. Why not the double tech? One person might miss.I agree, but it would slow the game down a LOT, since the tech has to be shot on your rim.

I hate when a player is dunking or taking a contact layup and uses his hands to protect from contact, I think that should be an offensive foul. If the defender can't put a hand on the attacker, neither can the attacker put a hand on the defender.It is an offensive foul, but the ref is can be on the wrong side of the play and can't see it.

JasonJohnHorn
01-25-2016, 09:55 PM
I've just gotten to the point (and I got there years ago) where I don't even fawking care what the rules are, I just want them to be called consistently.

Corey
01-25-2016, 09:56 PM
3. Bad player: NICK YOUNG. I think both he and Javale McGee are the two dumbest players in the NBA. I think Nick young has been envolved in the most loses in the league. He just might be the most untradeable player in the league as well.

Ironic.

Chronz
01-25-2016, 09:56 PM
Just traveling and they still let hand checking exist sometimes

lamzoka
01-25-2016, 11:01 PM
James harden and his 20 steps to the basket. It's a ****ing travel

Clear path fouls should be one free throw plus possession. Not 2 and possession


You shouldn't be allowed to call timeout while you're on the ground scrambling for the ball with another player. It should always be a jump ball. Some refs calls foul, some calls jump ball, some call timeout all depends on the teams and the players that on the ground.

Kyben36
01-25-2016, 11:05 PM
I hate when offensive players just use their off hand to sheild off and never get called both shooting but specifically when dribbling., its an offnesive foul call it.

Scoots
01-26-2016, 01:03 PM
Some of my pet peeves off the top of my head:

1. Charge rule. I say abolish this entirely. I dislike the fact that a defender can mega-slide into position a millisecond in time and cause an offensive foul. The defender should be contesting the shot. To compensate for this, they can simply just call offensive fouls if the offensive player bulldozes a defender that was immobile.

2. Jumping into a defender to cause an and-one foul. The shooter should only be able to draw a foul if they are shooting with their natural form, not diving into defenders who are in the air to initiate contact.

3. Rule of verticality. Refs continue to fail when a defender jumps straight up yet the ball-handler drives into his torso and initiates contact. I continue to see fouls being called against the defender.

I agree on all 3. The player initiating contact should get the foul or there should be no call. I hate it when a defender plays textbook D and an offensive player creates the contact and the defender gets the foul.

Scoots
01-26-2016, 01:06 PM
I've just gotten to the point (and I got there years ago) where I don't even fawking care what the rules are, I just want them to be called consistently.

Amen.

Scoots
01-26-2016, 01:08 PM
IndyRealist are you secretly an NBA ref? :)

The refs are much better in your eyes than in mine.

For the most part the rules are fine, it's the emphasis and the enforcement that I have a problem with the most.

Scoots
01-26-2016, 01:53 PM
I hate when offensive players just use their off hand to sheild off and never get called both shooting but specifically when dribbling., its an offnesive foul call it.

Or when offensive players without the ball shove defenders into screens ... they almost never get called.

Aapox
01-27-2016, 02:48 AM
I agree with most of what's been said. I think traveling calls are actually better this year than the last few (from the small-medium amount of ball that I've seen.

I have a question. Is the 1-game suspension for 10+ or 12+ or whatever it was technical fouls still in place? I know Westbrook, Cousins & more are getting up there in techs. I honestly can't stand the whining to the ref part of basketball, so I'm glad they're calling more techs on it. Smart players might get upset with the ref but they'll talk to them about it later on instead of being a big baby. In reference to this, I also disprove of "make-up" calls.

tredigs
01-27-2016, 04:09 AM
I think the only way a player should be able to be ejected is through flagrants or Technicals. To be kicked out of the game for ticky-tack fouls (that are many times incorrect) is actually pretty ridiculous if you think about it. What other sport does this occur? And why does the NBA operate this way?

IndyRealist
01-27-2016, 11:50 AM
IndyRealist are you secretly an NBA ref? :)

The refs are much better in your eyes than in mine.

For the most part the rules are fine, it's the emphasis and the enforcement that I have a problem with the most.

Most foul calls are pretty reasonable. It's the noncalls for superstars that drive me nuts. Just because a guy is on the cover of NBA2K doesn't mean there's a different set of rules for him.

Scoots
01-27-2016, 06:04 PM
I think the only way a player should be able to be ejected is through flagrants or Technicals. To be kicked out of the game for ticky-tack fouls (that are many times incorrect) is actually pretty ridiculous if you think about it. What other sport does this occur? And why does the NBA operate this way?

It seems even easier to get kicked in baseball ... just say CS to an umpire and you are gone.

In futbol (soccer) you get booted after a 2nd yellow card which are essentially fouls. The flagrant would correlate to a red card.

What's more in baseball and futbol if you take a break or are injured or bleeding you can't come back in the game if you leave.

Different sports, different rules. If there was no limit basketball would become a wrestling match even worse than it was in 1994-1995.

Scoots
01-27-2016, 06:07 PM
Most foul calls are pretty reasonable. It's the noncalls for superstars that drive me nuts. Just because a guy is on the cover of NBA2K doesn't mean there's a different set of rules for him.

The best explanation I ever heard about superstar calls WAY back in the day came from Chris Mullin. He said that when a player makes a play where it was hard to see and the refs call it one way, then when they look at film (at the time) later they see that the superstar didn't actually commit the foul so he earns the benefit of the doubt. Of course over time the refs lost that reasonableness and just start giving calls to superstars ... also back then superstars didn't complain on every play like many do now. Give an inch and they take a mile.

Consistent and accurate officiating should be the top priority and the best way to do that in the NBA is to add a ref.

tredigs
01-27-2016, 09:22 PM
It seems even easier to get kicked in baseball ... just say CS to an umpire and you are gone.

In futbol (soccer) you get booted after a 2nd yellow card which are essentially fouls. The flagrant would correlate to a red card.

What's more in baseball and futbol if you take a break or are injured or bleeding you can't come back in the game if you leave.

Different sports, different rules. If there was no limit basketball would become a wrestling match even worse than it was in 1994-1995.

Huh? Definitely not easier to get kicked in baseball. It's actually very rare, and more often than not it is the coach who is ejected, not the player. Moreover, the players are not sitting out multiple innings during the middle of the game because they have to worry about the potential for an infraction. Same goes for soccer. Being ejected from competition for a double yellow or red is NOT common (just off the top of my head I would say it occurs to maybe 1 player from either team every 10 games or so), and again, they are not sitting out a third of the match because they receive a yellow.

I see no reason why basketball would be played any differently. Teams would still be in the bonus and get to shoot free throws if a player was fouling too often, and to further compensate they could make "personal" bonuses where when any player reaches their 6th foul, all of their fouls are then opposing FT's from that point forward. But, to keep them out of the game with such regularity for long stretches due to a block/charge call or otherwise (or to simply eject them completely for minor fouls that may or may not have been called correctly), that is ridiculous to me. And certainly unprecedented among all major sports.

You can definitely remain in the game if you bleed or have a minor injury that needs to be quickly dealt with in both sports by the way. Baseball has breaks for the players every half inning for God sake. And in soccer you just play down 1 for a small amount of time (if they can't deal with it immediately).

tredigs
01-27-2016, 09:27 PM
The best explanation I ever heard about superstar calls WAY back in the day came from Chris Mullin. He said that when a player makes a play where it was hard to see and the refs call it one way, then when they look at film (at the time) later they see that the superstar didn't actually commit the foul so he earns the benefit of the doubt. Of course over time the refs lost that reasonableness and just start giving calls to superstars ... also back then superstars didn't complain on every play like many do now. Give an inch and they take a mile.

Consistent and accurate officiating should be the top priority and the best way to do that in the NBA is to add a ref.
There are plenty of refs as is. It's an EXTREMELY tough game to officiate with a massive amount of whistles (hence many wrong calls, despite most being spot on). Adding a ref is just adding more whistles. I don't think they'd do any better of a job. That's why my solution is the way to go imo.

Scoots
01-27-2016, 09:44 PM
So lets go to soccer rules and 2 infractions and you are out and no rest allowed. Or hockey where your team has to play a man down.

tredigs
01-27-2016, 09:49 PM
So lets go to soccer rules and 2 infractions and you are out and no rest allowed. Or hockey where your team has to play a man down.
2 infractions and you're down? Try again man. Yellow = flagrant. We already have that policy. It's a sport with MUCH more leniency for contact, for one, and you can be whistled 5 times with no repercussion what so ever if the ref deems that you are not putting the opposition in danger. In hockey you again have a massive amount of leeway for contact, and those penalty minutes are earned. There's no "block/charge" situation where it's a 50/50 that simply doesn't go their way. In a sport where whistles are so tough to determine (back to basketball), it makes it all the more ridiculous to alter the outcomes of games due to certain players having to sit for extended periods of time.

Scoots
01-27-2016, 11:24 PM
So yeah let's just do away with fouls and just have flagrants

tredigs
01-27-2016, 11:49 PM
So yeah let's just do away with fouls and just have flagrants

Yeah, pretty much. You keep the quarter foul limit bonuses, and potentially add a personal "player" FT bonus that I talked about. No less FT's, no change on the game what so ever other than more PT from the best players. It's a shock to your system I realize, but I can't imagine how this would not result in better basketball games.

Scoots
01-27-2016, 11:53 PM
Because when fouls are unlimited play gets more physical and eventually officials call fewer fouls and the game gets even more physical.

tredigs
01-28-2016, 12:05 AM
Because when fouls are unlimited play gets more physical and eventually officials call fewer fouls and the game gets even more physical.

Why would the refs call fewer fouls? They call it the same and if a team was over-fouling they would be punished by landing the opposition in the bonus early. Same as it is now.

Scoots
01-28-2016, 12:26 AM
Were you watching in the mid 90s?