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View Full Version : In Your Opinion, are the Cavs a well coached team?



Nikeman
01-21-2016, 01:32 AM
I was discussing this with a friend yesterday, I think the Cavs have an extremely talented roster, with all the pieces in place..

Scoring/Offense: Irving, Love, LeBron
Rebounding: Love, LeBron, TT, Mozgov
Perimeter D: LeBron (when he tried), Shumpert, JR Smith
Inside D: Mozgov, TT (This may be their biggest weakness)
Shooting: Kyrie, JR Smith, Kevin Love (not great, but good shooter)

That being said, the Warriors came in and dismantled this roster. On offense, what exactly are the Cavs? Iso for LeBron, Iso for Irving, that seems like their two plays all game. It will work against teams 90% of the time as their team is so deep and talented, but against disciplined, quality teams, this method will not work.

This team is completely mis-utilizing the talent of the roster. LeBron is actually a phenomenal player at making cuts without the ball and getting easy dunks and layups. What this team needs to do is Irving/Love pick and roll all game long. Curry is better than Irving no doubt, but Irving has a similar game, phenomenal ball handling, with a very good jumper, and Kevin Love may actually be a more polished offensive player than Draymond. It just seems every time Steph and Green run the P&R, Steph either gets a big on him and shoots with his quick release, or teams overplay Steph leading to an open Green 3 or give Green a wide open lane to drive. Kyrie/Love P&R could create similar types of mismatches, leading to wide open shots for either, a big guarding Kyrie who can easily blow by him or a smaller guy on Love, who actually has a top notch inside game.

The Steph/Draymond pick & roll has evolved into the hardest thing to stop in the NBA, but an Irving/Love P&R would be deadly in its own right. This team has basically made Kevin Love a 3 pt shooter, its sad to see. Kevin Love shoots 13 times a game, of those, 6 are 3 point attempts. In Minny, he got 19 shots a game, 6 of those were 3 pt attempts. They've put a damn good offensive player in a horrible position to succeed.

LeBron is shooting more than he ever shot in Miami, it just seems watching the guy he's trying to do too much. The reason for his inefficiency is because at times he's trying to become a scorer when that is not his game. This team has a great roster, if only they learned to play like the Warriors and Spurs and stopped this Isolation play and decided to move the ball and make cuts.

YOUGOTAGETUP
01-21-2016, 01:49 AM
No. They might be one of the worst coached teams in history.

They win because they're just simply much bigger than any team in the East. And no great players in the East to over come that.

Nikeman
01-21-2016, 01:57 AM
No. They might be one of the worst coached teams in history.

They win because they're just simply much bigger than any team in the East. And no great players in the East to over come that.

In a nutshell, that is 100% accurate. If they don't figure their **** out they will get embarrassed in the finals. Sad how its such a cake walk for them to the finals.

LOb0
01-21-2016, 01:57 AM
I haven't liked what I've seen from Blatt at all so far. If the Cavs go under he's out.


Tom Thibodeau....hmm

Ball_Out
01-21-2016, 01:58 AM
Every LeBron based team is asked the same question each year the team has a bad stretch. Unfortunately the problem is lebron. The offense is always ran around him and that's a mistake in my opinion

YOUGOTAGETUP
01-21-2016, 02:03 AM
I haven't liked what I've seen from Blatt at all so far. If the Cavs go under he's out.


Tom Thibodeau....hmmthibodeau might be the worst coach ever.

Just get a coach that won and actually played the game some.

LOb0
01-21-2016, 02:04 AM
thibodeau might be the worst coach ever.

Just get a coach that won and actually played the game some.

The worst coach ever? Well you may be the worst poster ever.

Who's out there they can get?

Nikeman
01-21-2016, 02:10 AM
Every LeBron based team is asked the same question each year the team has a bad stretch. Unfortunately the problem is lebron. The offense is always ran around him and that's a mistake in my opinion

That is fine to an extent, but iso-LeBron is not going to cute it with this Cavs roster. Prime D-Wade in Miami along with Bosh was also a horribly coached team. We won 2 NBA titles because we just had so much more talent than the other team, and but still barely won against the Spurs in 13 before getting dismantled in 14.

Against the Warriors, you need to exploit Curry and Green with the Love and Irving P&R. If the Cavs can get a switch of Love onto Curry its a win, Draymond is an all world defender, but I think Irving with his handles could give him trouble. The more you force Curry to work on D, the better your chance of stopping him on O. The fact the Cavs don't utilize a Love/Irving P&R is sad to see.

YOUGOTAGETUP
01-21-2016, 02:13 AM
The worst coach ever? Well you may be the worst poster ever.

Who's out there they can get?
you're the worst poster ever.

thibs was a failure in Chicago and they gave him 5 years to ruin the team.

There are a lot of great basketball coaches out there. Look at Luke Walton.


It doesn't really matter, the League is a bit of a joke now and especially the East. There are just no great teams in the East and there hasn't been for almost 20 years now.

The league needs to do away with the several teams and put the star players on Boston and NY so the East can have great teams that are better than Cleveland.

asandhu23
01-21-2016, 03:07 AM
The worst coach ever? Well you may be the worst poster ever.




you're the worst poster ever.



:catfight:

ewing
01-21-2016, 07:27 AM
i think LeBron is doing a fine job, he is also growing as a front office guy. I think he is too hard as himself as a GM n hope he doesn't opt out when a move or two of his doesn't pan out just like he figured.

NYKalltheway
01-21-2016, 09:46 AM
The Cavs aren't coached at all, so you can't really judge the guy they call head coach as a basketball presence. You can say that he has a soft personality, though.

Tony_Starks
01-21-2016, 09:52 AM
So Mike Brown was a horrible coach....Spoelstra was a terrible coach....now Blatt is a horrible coach.

Almost how Chris Bosh was supposedly the weakest link, and now Kevin Love is now the weakest link.


Anyone else notice a pattern here?

Scoots
01-21-2016, 02:07 PM
i think LeBron is doing a fine job, he is also growing as a front office guy. I think he is too hard as himself as a GM n hope he doesn't opt out when a move or two of his doesn't pan out just like he figured.

Coach LeBron needs to get his star player to be less passive aggressive to his teammates and start learning other ways to lead and he needs to learn to start playing in a more modern offense. Coach LeBron's problem is that his star player isn't interested in changing how he plays the game. IF Coach LeBron would just let his assistant coach Blatt install his offense and get the players to run it they would be a wildly different team.

BKLYNpigeon
01-21-2016, 02:37 PM
NOT AT ALL.... Blame the GM. They don't have the pieces to work well with each other.


Their top 3 players all need the ball to be effective. You can't have 3 of them in the starting lineup.

Look at Kevin Love's number before Kyrie came back from injury. He was playing GREAT.

Hawkeye15
01-21-2016, 02:43 PM
Mike Brown was legit a terrible coach. But Spolestra, and even more so Blatt, are excellent coaches.

The problem is, as great as LeBron is, when you have him, there is only so much you can do. He needs the ball, your team is better off with him playing that way, so you are left to construct a team that plays directly to his strengths. If you don't, or that team isn't hitting their shots and playing defense, they won't win.

So, you basically are left with trying to figure out how best to utilize the non-LeBron options for maximum opportunities.

valade16
01-21-2016, 02:44 PM
So Mike Brown was a horrible coach....Spoelstra was a terrible coach....now Blatt is a horrible coach.

Almost how Chris Bosh was supposedly the weakest link, and now Kevin Love is now the weakest link.

Anyone else notice a pattern here?

I think LeBron James is a top 10 player ever, the best SF ever and was the best player in the league until this season but yeah, it's getting a little ridiculous how there's always a reason he doesn't just walk all over the league.

Instead of saying all his coaches are terrible, or Bosh/Love are terrible, maybe the reason he doesn't win it is every year is it's insanely difficult to win a title in the NBA even as the best player. There's a reason so few have led their teams to more than 1 title, it's damn tough.

Vee-Rex
01-21-2016, 07:47 PM
Here's my notes/opinions on Blatt based off his time in Cleveland:

Pros:

- Typically has a terrific gameplan. He outcoached all of Stevens, Thibodeau, and Bud (especially Bud) in the playoffs. He even had possibly the best gameplan he could've had (given his roster depletion) against Kerr and the Warriors to start the finals.

-Draws up pretty good out-of-bounds plays when the shot/game clock is low.

-A pretty good player's coach. He gets along with every player and defends them in press conferences. He's good with the media also.

Cons:

- Fails to make in-game adjustments. He's stubborn with his gameplans and doesn't try to switch anything up. This is why GS is able to kill us with the Curry/Green PnR the same way every time.

- Isn't a great motivator. The players don't seem to respect his words or anything he has to say, to be honest. LBJ, as an example, doesn't dislike Blatt, he just doesn't seem to respect him much.

- Doesn't have a good offensive system in Cleveland.

To those who think that Blatt doesn't have an offensive system: You're wrong.

Blatt's offensive system centers around a lot of circular movement around the perimeter with screens being set. The ball-handler will drive along the edge of the 3 point line and hand it off to a teammate driving in the opposite direction, while setting a screen against that teammate's defender. The new ball-handler has the option of shooting (if open), driving to the rim, or continuing his motion to hand the ball off and set a screen for a 3rd teammate moving in the opposite direction. The problem?

It sucks.

And that's why people that only tune in to see the Cavs on national television only see the iso. I remember going to the very first Cavs scrimmage game in October of 2014 and seeing them running this system. Since then the players mainly only run iso because this system sucks.

- Blatt severely shortens his rotations in high profile games. I understand that come playoffs teams usually do this but the success of James and Irving (our best two players who also expend the most energy) is dependent on them being well rested.

-Prone to making basic errors. Perhaps it's due to being a new coach in the NBA? It doesn't happen often but it's usually costly (or could be, like the TO scandal against the Bulls in the playoffs).

-Hasn't been able to utilize Love to the extent that is needed.

In conclusion: The Cavs are not a well-coached team. Blatt's greatest attribute is his ability to gameplan and if he can build off that, he'd be terrific. But the way things are going suggests he won't do that.

If the Spurs meet the Warriors in the WCF and Popovich develops a great gameplan to try to limit GS's offense, you better believe Blatt will adopt it (and perhaps expand upon it) if the Dubs meet them in the finals.

In the end, if he's unable to make good adjustments and doesn't establish at least a semblance of an offensive system, the Cavs will continue to be a poorly coached team.

Vee-Rex
01-21-2016, 07:52 PM
So Mike Brown was a horrible coach....Spoelstra was a terrible coach....now Blatt is a horrible coach.

Almost how Chris Bosh was supposedly the weakest link, and now Kevin Love is now the weakest link.


Anyone else notice a pattern here?

Mike Brown was absolutely terrible. Pathetic. You have to do more than look at the defensive statistics of those 09/10 teams to see it.

Spoelstra is simply average.

I'd say Blatt is a bit below average, but he still has a lot of room for improvement.

Vee-Rex
01-21-2016, 07:56 PM
Coach LeBron needs to get his star player to be less passive aggressive to his teammates and start learning other ways to lead and he needs to learn to start playing in a more modern offense. Coach LeBron's problem is that his star player isn't interested in changing how he plays the game. IF Coach LeBron would just let his assistant coach Blatt install his offense and get the players to run it they would be a wildly different team.

I know you're trolling, but Blatt's system really is bad. He tried to install it.

The Princeton offense is flashy when utilized properly but it's fairly easy to stop. Requires a ton of dribbling from one side of the court to the other and is ineffective if defenders are able to switch seamlessly.

D-Leethal
01-21-2016, 07:57 PM
Cavs have a lot of freelancers - guys that like to kill the set, pound the rock and improvise. They are not gonna execute crisp, clean scripts the same way teams like the Spurs and Dubs do.

Tony_Starks
01-21-2016, 08:21 PM
So Mike Brown was a horrible coach....Spoelstra was a terrible coach....now Blatt is a horrible coach.

Almost how Chris Bosh was supposedly the weakest link, and now Kevin Love is now the weakest link.


Anyone else notice a pattern here?

Mike Brown was absolutely terrible. Pathetic. You have to do more than look at the defensive statistics of those 09/10 teams to see it.

Spoelstra is simply average.

I'd say Blatt is a bit below average, but he still has a lot of room for improvement.


You don't get a team to the Finals in the NBA and contend for years by being "pathetic." That's just basketball 101.

He was incredibly limited offensively but Brown is a good coach. I saw him firsthand with my squad as well, trust me.

Spo is beyond good, not great, but a very good leader. He was in control of a absolute circus and kept those guys focused for 4 straight Finals appearances.

Jury is still out on Blatt. I don't think he is a bad coach.

I do however think he is the wrong coach for THIS team.

This team needs a OG command respect type of coach. Jerry Sloan, Larry Brown type...

Scoots
01-21-2016, 08:44 PM
I know you're trolling, but Blatt's system really is bad. He tried to install it.

The Princeton offense is flashy when utilized properly but it's fairly easy to stop. Requires a ton of dribbling from one side of the court to the other and is ineffective if defenders are able to switch seamlessly.
Most offenses fail if the players won't run it. I thought it was interesting in international play and it wasn't just Princeton.

NYKalltheway
01-21-2016, 09:05 PM
Blatt's offense isn't the Princeton one. He's very flexible.

Vee-Rex
01-22-2016, 03:23 PM
Of course he has modified the Princeton offense to fit his style, but the base definitely is similar if not completely derived from the Princeton offense.

The players have tried to run that offense... the players have tried to run that offense. Anyone thinking they haven't have not been watching every Cavs game since October 2014. It just doesn't quite suit their strengths. You can't really bring in 3 extremely talented but ball-dominant all-stars and expect to utilize all of their strengths running that style of offense.

Blatt has to create something that will work to their strengths (similar to how Miami's offense developed even though Wade/Bron weren't known to be great outside shooters) and go from there. The Cavs big 3 have only played 65-75 regular season games together so there's still time.

ackar
01-22-2016, 03:39 PM
Honestly this thread can be the about my Bulls because I feel they are not coached well at this point.

Sport472
01-22-2016, 03:47 PM
I don't think the Cavs are well coached. Lebron is the coach out there.

I'm a Kobe fan. I was recently gifted tickets to Kobe's last game in LA against the Jazz and was wondering if anyone can help with some donations for my trip. I am from New Jersey so anything would help. Thanks guys!

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Twins Fanatic
01-22-2016, 03:56 PM
Pretty Random, but I've always wonder how LeBron would perform in a Rick Adelman corner offence type of system.

Chronz
01-22-2016, 06:59 PM
Pretty Random, but I've always wonder how LeBron would perform in a Rick Adelman corner offence type of system.
That's blatts system tho

KnicksFan4Years
01-22-2016, 08:00 PM
Blatt is a very good coach. If anybody watched the playoffs last season, when the coaching and playing matters the most, Blatt was a terrific coach. He had the Cavs playing inspired and smart defense, all while undermanned.

The real failure is LeBron. He has never been able to do it and probably never will.

In Miami, he had every opportunity to make it and just came up small in the biggest moments. In essence, LeBron is still that Arrogant Child that walked off the court against Orlando refusing to shake hands or give the Magic credit.

His body language and attitude toward Blatt have been deplorable for a professional player from DAY #1, before Blatt was even given a chance. He's scarcely ever given Blatt credit and he freelances the offense all the time. I remember the Finals like yesterday with Blatt hanging his head in frustration because LeBum wasn't following the game plan.

It's hard to be a good coach in a 5 man game where your top player has already discounted you. But, even under those circumstances, Blatt still managed to do a pretty fine job.

slashsnake
01-23-2016, 02:19 PM
Spoelstra is a good coach, I don't think anyone ever said he wasn't. I think having Pat Riley down the hall to chat with really helped him early. He wasn't as good as Carlisle, we saw that with his timeouts and situationals pretty obviously in that first finals.

But we also have to look at his career, half of which has been without Lebron. And that's 150-140 record and 0 playoff series won in 3.5 years. Maybe people are saying that his coaching is why this team with Bosh, Wade, Dragic, Whiteside, Deng... are 2 games over .500 which is a lot better than they should be?

Brown? Meh, doesn't move the dial for me at all.

Blatt, we will see, he obviously was having rookie mistakes, timeout issues, set plays, inadaptability... Which is HUGE when you have stars.

Someone there said when the playoffs mattered most he was terrific. Not really, he was taking timeouts just before mandatory timeouts at times (why he put that on Lue after to call timeouts in situations). He should have cost them the game and trailing 1-3 in the series with his Chris Webber impersonation.

Phil Jackson didn't play tell Shaq "what works is our triangle where the center gets the ball 4 times a game" like had with Luc Longley. He worked their ego's. He adjusted to his teams talent. It seems like that was a big issue with Blatt. So maybe a good coach, but clearly the wrong one for the time. Blatt shouldn't have decided Delladova should be the one dominating the ball when Lebron is on your team. I know his offense uses the PG like that, but just because your offense uses a stretch 4 shooting 3's if you have Kenyon Martin as your 4, you aren't doing that.

It seemed to me he wanted to push his system as his way of gaining buy in and respect rather than adjust his system to the talents on hand.

Vee-Rex
01-23-2016, 02:24 PM
Spoelstra is a good coach, I don't think anyone ever said he wasn't. I think having Pat Riley down the hall to chat with really helped him early. He wasn't as good as Carlisle, we saw that with his timeouts and situationals pretty obviously in that first finals.

But we also have to look at his career, half of which has been without Lebron. And that's 150-140 record and 0 playoff series won in 3.5 years. Maybe people are saying that his coaching is why this team with Bosh, Wade, Dragic, Whiteside, Deng... are 2 games over .500 which is a lot better than they should be?

Brown? Meh, doesn't move the dial for me at all.

Blatt, we will see, he obviously was having rookie mistakes, timeout issues, set plays, inadaptability... Which is HUGE when you have stars.

Someone there said when the playoffs mattered most he was terrific. Not really, he was taking timeouts just before mandatory timeouts at times (why he put that on Lue after to call timeouts in situations). He should have cost them the game and trailing 1-3 in the series with his Chris Webber impersonation.

Phil Jackson didn't play tell Shaq "what works is our triangle where the center gets the ball 4 times a game" like had with Luc Longley. He worked their ego's. He adjusted to his teams talent. It seems like that was a big issue with Blatt. So maybe a good coach, but clearly the wrong one for the time. Blatt shouldn't have decided Delladova should be the one dominating the ball when Lebron is on your team. I know his offense uses the PG like that, but just because your offense uses a stretch 4 shooting 3's if you have Kenyon Martin as your 4, you aren't doing that.

It seemed to me he wanted to push his system as his way of gaining buy in and respect rather than adjust his system to the talents on hand.

Bingo.

FOXHOUND
01-23-2016, 02:47 PM
Phil Jackson didn't play tell Shaq "what works is our triangle where the center gets the ball 4 times a game" like had with Luc Longley. He worked their ego's. He adjusted to his teams talent. It seems like that was a big issue with Blatt. So maybe a good coach, but clearly the wrong one for the time. Blatt shouldn't have decided Delladova should be the one dominating the ball when Lebron is on your team. I know his offense uses the PG like that, but just because your offense uses a stretch 4 shooting 3's if you have Kenyon Martin as your 4, you aren't doing that.

It seemed to me he wanted to push his system as his way of gaining buy in and respect rather than adjust his system to the talents on hand.

But he wasn't running his system. His system is all about ball movement, and the Cavs are an ISO heavy team. He was focused too much on working ego's, but he focused mainly on working LeBron's ego. It's a big undertaking working on three ball dominant stars, definitely more than a rookie NBA coach could handle I'll say that. But, at the same time, he didn't get much help from his lead player who constantly and publicly undermined him from the get go.

KnicksFan4Years
01-23-2016, 03:39 PM
But he wasn't running his system. His system is all about ball movement, and the Cavs are an ISO heavy team. He was focused too much on working ego's, but he focused mainly on working LeBron's ego. It's a big undertaking working on three ball dominant stars, definitely more than a rookie NBA coach could handle I'll say that. But, at the same time, he didn't get much help from his lead player who constantly and publicly undermined him from the get go.

LeBron was the one that deviated from the gameplans. He continuously broke off the offense because "he knew better".

He was working to get Jackson signed to his agency to get him hired by Cavs for nearly a year and then he comes out with "I had no idea this was coming."

And teams that don't have plans in place don't sign an assistant to a 3 year deal on the same day they fire the coach. This is crap.

In basketball, if your star player doesn't like or want to play for the coach, it is hard to win games. See Melo and D'Antoni. Knicks fan here and I watched every second of it unfold. This is much more shady because LeBum never gave Blatt a chance from day 1. Even after he signed with Cavs from Heat, he was very dismissive of Blatt.

Blatt is a good coach, but when you have the star player undermining you, you could be John Wooden (fill in hall of fame coach) and it won't work.

It's going to be so satisfying to see this egotistical bum lose in the playoffs again. I hope the whole Cavs team is healthy so he has no excuses except himself. Adversity reveals character and every time he's encountered adversity he has shown himself to be a self-centered, self-serving jerk.

FOXHOUND
01-23-2016, 04:01 PM
LeBron was the one that deviated from the gameplans. He continuously broke off the offense because "he knew better".

He was working to get Jackson signed to his agency to get him hired by Cavs for nearly a year and then he comes out with "I had no idea this was coming."

And teams that don't have plans in place don't sign an assistant to a 3 year deal on the same day they fire the coach. This is crap.

In basketball, if your star player doesn't like or want to play for the coach, it is hard to win games. See Melo and D'Antoni. Knicks fan here and I watched every second of it unfold. This is much more shady because LeBum never gave Blatt a chance from day 1. Even after he signed with Cavs from Heat, he was very dismissive of Blatt.

Blatt is a good coach, but when you have the star player undermining you, you could be John Wooden (fill in hall of fame coach) and it won't work.

It's going to be so satisfying to see this egotistical bum lose in the playoffs again. I hope the whole Cavs team is healthy so he has no excuses except himself. Adversity reveals character and every time he's encountered adversity he has shown himself to be a self-centered, self-serving jerk.

Yes, but at least Melo had a leg to stand on. I'll never forget D' Antoni's gameplan after Linsanity. Melo standing behind the elbow 3 point line, Amare standing on the baseline 18 feet out and Lin and Tyson running PnRs all day. That game planning was a joke, and it was no accident that the Knicks got vastly better immediately after he got dumped.

Cavs are 30-11 and top 5 in both offensive and defensive efficiency. I don't know what Cleveland is expecting, for them to go undefeated from here on out with Lue? Should they be 35-6 instead? They didn't even have Irving for most of the season and are in the middle of a 11-2 run where they only lost to SA and GS, the two teams vastly better than everyone right now.

This firing is for reasons tied to the locker room and other factors, so we'll see how much things improve with someone who has barely coached.

Vee-Rex
01-23-2016, 04:10 PM
I wish the Cavs only made Lue the interim coach and went from there. It's feels rather disgusting that they gave him a multi-year deal on the same day they fired Blatt.

flea
01-23-2016, 04:11 PM
Yes, but at least Melo had a leg to stand on. I'll never forget D' Antoni's gameplan after Linsanity. Melo standing behind the elbow 3 point line, Amare standing on the baseline 18 feet out and Lin and Tyson running PnRs all day. That game planning was a joke, and it was no accident that the Knicks got vastly better immediately after he got dumped.

Cavs are 30-11 and top 5 in both offensive and defensive efficiency. I don't know what Cleveland is expecting, for them to go undefeated from here on out with Lue? Should they be 35-6 instead? They didn't even have Irving for most of the season and are in the middle of a 11-2 run where they only lost to SA and GS, the two teams vastly better than everyone right now.

This firing is for reasons tied to the locker room and other factors, so we'll see how much things improve with someone who has barely coached.

Exactly. They lucked into getting one of the best basketball coaches in the world, but he wasn't "Lebron's guy" so he had to go. I understand that in the NBA you have to deal with giant men with brains and emotions the size of 6-year old autistic children but the onus is also on your star players to go with the flow and help better the team.

Lebron clearly had no interest in a motion offense - he wants to play Lebronball and rack up triple doubles like Magic until the day he retires. Blatt even let them run their stuff on offense, gave Lebron the ball as much as he wanted. Now we're supposed to believe it was Blatt's fault that Love wasn't working more in the post? Please. They only bring that up because the media has been talking about it with Kyrie's return.

Blatt had his team performing remarkably well defensively in last year's Finals. Has any team defended the Warriors as well as his group that featured 2 backups forced into starting roles? And Lebron barely had anything to do with that, though he did perform admirably offensively with his depleted unit. Blatt is a good coach - it's Lebron homer propaganda that he's not or that he was "often confused" and whatever other contemptible bilge the Lebron PR team keeps leaking to the Cleveland media and ESPN.

But Lebron's got "his guy" again now. A guy who's only been out of the league a handful of years, and we're supposed to believe he's going to know more about how to help this team win games than one of the most storied coaches in Europe? Pathetic if you buy into this from Lebron's view on any level - that he didn't know, that Blatt is an awful coach, that he was holding the team back, etc.

slashsnake
01-23-2016, 04:14 PM
But he wasn't running his system. His system is all about ball movement, and the Cavs are an ISO heavy team. He was focused too much on working ego's, but he focused mainly on working LeBron's ego. It's a big undertaking working on three ball dominant stars, definitely more than a rookie NBA coach could handle I'll say that. But, at the same time, he didn't get much help from his lead player who constantly and publicly undermined him from the get go.

Well I remember Lebron was the one there early and late every day at the start going over his drills so he could teach them to the other guys in practice at the start of last year. And even there, he came out a lot in support of Blatt when he'd make mistakes from the bench. Late in the season and playoffs that started wearing thin.

Once they made the trades to go to the more iso team about halfway through last season (ball movement is not JR's game. lol) I think they should have moved on. But they started winning games going away from his Princeton stuff, so they kept it together. And then as a coach he wasn't drawing up plays or leading an offense, he was just calling bad timeouts (with Lue calling them behind his back) and making questionable subs.

And part is just who you like I guess. Blatt calls Lebron to be the inbounder for the game winner, he rewrites the play on his own. Doug Collins tells Jordan that and Jordan tells him to "F off". Blatt's shots at Love and comparing himself to a jet fighter pilot in the media didn't help either.

Vee-Rex
01-23-2016, 04:30 PM
Exactly. They lucked into getting one of the best basketball coaches in the world, but he wasn't "Lebron's guy" so he had to go. I understand that in the NBA you have to deal with giant men with brains and emotions the size of 6-year old autistic children but the onus is also on your star players to go with the flow and help better the team.

Lebron clearly had no interest in a motion offense - he wants to play Lebronball and rack up triple doubles like Magic until the day he retires. Blatt even let them run their stuff on offense, gave Lebron the ball as much as he wanted. Now we're supposed to believe it was Blatt's fault that Love wasn't working more in the post? Please. They only bring that up because the media has been talking about it with Kyrie's return.

Blatt had his team performing remarkably well defensively in last year's Finals. Has any team defended the Warriors as well as his group that featured 2 backups forced into starting roles? And Lebron barely had anything to do with that, though he did perform admirably offensively with his depleted unit. Blatt is a good coach - it's Lebron homer propaganda that he's not or that he was "often confused" and whatever other contemptible bilge the Lebron PR team keeps leaking to the Cleveland media and ESPN.

But Lebron's got "his guy" again now. A guy who's only been out of the league a handful of years, and we're supposed to believe he's going to know more about how to help this team win games than one of the most storied coaches in Europe? Pathetic if you buy into this from Lebron's view on any level - that he didn't know, that Blatt is an awful coach, that he was holding the team back, etc.

I'd like for everyone who keeps touting how great of a coach Blatt is to explain how Blatt is a great coach for the Cavs, given that:

- too afraid to confront star players in film sessions, instead pointing out mistakes by the regular players
- favored LeBron in practice and called BS fouls to reflect it
- lost respect from most if not all the players
- makes bad coaching errors as far as timeouts that are costly
- allows Lue to do substitutions and call timeouts
- unnecessarily shortens rotations which tires out star players
- terrible at making in-game adjustments

Blatt may have been successful had he been coaching a young, rebuilding team (like the one he was hired to do) rather than manage the egos of superstars brought together.

I understand the desire to trash LeBron because of it. Hell, LBJ is definitely egotistical, but anyone trying to pump up Blatt's coaching tenure IN CLEVELAND and suggest that he wasn't bad at all is clearly only doing it with an anti-Lebron agenda in mind.

FOXHOUND
01-23-2016, 04:34 PM
Exactly. They lucked into getting one of the best basketball coaches in the world, but he wasn't "Lebron's guy" so he had to go. I understand that in the NBA you have to deal with giant men with brains and emotions the size of 6-year old autistic children but the onus is also on your star players to go with the flow and help better the team.

Lebron clearly had no interest in a motion offense - he wants to play Lebronball and rack up triple doubles like Magic until the day he retires. Blatt even let them run their stuff on offense, gave Lebron the ball as much as he wanted. Now we're supposed to believe it was Blatt's fault that Love wasn't working more in the post? Please. They only bring that up because the media has been talking about it with Kyrie's return.

Blatt had his team performing remarkably well defensively in last year's Finals. Has any team defended the Warriors as well as his group that featured 2 backups forced into starting roles? And Lebron barely had anything to do with that, though he did perform admirably offensively with his depleted unit. Blatt is a good coach - it's Lebron homer propaganda that he's not or that he was "often confused" and whatever other contemptible bilge the Lebron PR team keeps leaking to the Cleveland media and ESPN.

But Lebron's got "his guy" again now. A guy who's only been out of the league a handful of years, and we're supposed to believe he's going to know more about how to help this team win games than one of the most storied coaches in Europe? Pathetic if you buy into this from Lebron's view on any level - that he didn't know, that Blatt is an awful coach, that he was holding the team back, etc.

Yeah, an ugly situation all around. I don't think LeBron helped things, but I don't think Blatt was without his faults either. He definitely wasn't ready to deal with a personality like LeBron. He also definitely wasn't ready to deal with juggling how to gameplan three ball dominant stars, two who suck on defense and the other who no longer cares about giving effort on that end, while keeping everyone happy buying in. I think the Woj article nails it, he never got a chance.

But yeah, Lue saying he's going to use Love at the elbow more is laughable. LeBron won't allow it, and the ISO ball domination from him and Irving won't either. We'll see how much everyone likes Lue when he's the head coach wanting them to do things they don't want to do, instead of the guy on the side they talk to because they don't like Blatt.

Raps08-09 Champ
01-23-2016, 04:39 PM
The team didn't buy into Blatt and he didn't utilize his players as effective. But that's also part of management and the player's fault.

flea
01-23-2016, 04:39 PM
Who else has defended the Warriors as well in the last 1.5 years besides Blatt's team? Was it entirely his assistants who were responsible for that, with 2 reserves starting no less? Was it Lebron who was behind the scenes coaching Thompson how to smother the passing lanes on Curry's P&Rs early in the series?

It sounds to me like you'd rather grasp at one or two situations, like the TO and not giving Lebron the ball for a fadeaway 2, than fairly assessing his ability as a coach. It's not like he forgot how to coach, and as for short rotations that is total BS. Lebron is playing a career low MPG and the team only has 2 guys averaging over 30 MPG. Not every team can cultivate the depth of teams like the Spurs.

FOXHOUND
01-23-2016, 04:42 PM
Well I remember Lebron was the one there early and late every day at the start going over his drills so he could teach them to the other guys in practice at the start of last year. And even there, he came out a lot in support of Blatt when he'd make mistakes from the bench. Late in the season and playoffs that started wearing thin.

Once they made the trades to go to the more iso team about halfway through last season (ball movement is not JR's game. lol) I think they should have moved on. But they started winning games going away from his Princeton stuff, so they kept it together. And then as a coach he wasn't drawing up plays or leading an offense, he was just calling bad timeouts (with Lue calling them behind his back) and making questionable subs.

And part is just who you like I guess. Blatt calls Lebron to be the inbounder for the game winner, he rewrites the play on his own. Doug Collins tells Jordan that and Jordan tells him to "F off". Blatt's shots at Love and comparing himself to a jet fighter pilot in the media didn't help either.

I mostly agree. I don't think LeBron is an all out villain or anything, but clearly he didn't like/respect Blatt and was for this move. Far from the first star to do something like this. The best example is always how Magic wanted Westhead fired, and they actually won a ring together lol. Is Tyronn Lue going to be Pat Riley? I really doubt it, but we'll see how things go now.

JR sucks, I don't miss him in NY in the slightest :D

On Blatt's part, I think he mostly did a good job but had definite and obvious growing pains as being new to the NBA culture. Dealing with a LeBron type personality in itself is extremely difficult, let alone juggling three ball dominant stars. I think he was in over his head from that respect and clearly this move was coming. The thing I don't agree with, is doing it to replace him with a guy who has never coached anywhere and who has just a little experience as an assistant.

Is there any reason to think that Lue will be able to handle those challenges better himself, let alone without decades of successful coaching experience under his belt? I think the people jumping to the conclusion that things will be better are being hasty. It may be better in the short term, then again they're in the midst of a 11-2 run as it is.

Vee-Rex
01-23-2016, 04:50 PM
Who else has defended the Warriors as well in the last 1.5 years besides Blatt's team? Was it entirely his assistants who were responsible for that, with 2 reserves starting no less? Was it Lebron who was behind the scenes coaching Thompson how to smother the passing lanes on Curry's P&Rs early in the series?

It sounds to me like you'd rather grasp at one or two situations, like the TO and not giving Lebron the ball for a fadeaway 2, than fairly assessing his ability as a coach. It's not like he forgot how to coach, and as for short rotations that is total BS. Lebron is playing a career low MPG and the team only has 2 guys averaging over 30 MPG. Not every team can cultivate the depth of teams like the Spurs.

Is that all you have in Blatt's defense? If so, it's no wonder he was fired. Blatt severely shortens his rotations in high profile games, something you can't see just from looking at MPG stats on the year.

I listed far more than one or two situations. Losing the respect of the entire team is catastrophic, so in what way are the basic things you listed going to offset that? In fact, I can list way more pros with Blatt than what you did, and they still don't make up for the fact that he didn't know how to manage his players and sucked at in-game adjustments.

Like I said, rip LBJ all you want, I think it's fair to do that... but saying Blatt didn't do anything wrong and ignoring the fact that he lost the locker room is ludicrous.

I won't argue with you anymore if you can't concede to that, since, continuing on it with you goes beyond actual fact and would delve more into your bias (as always) against LeBron.

5ass
01-23-2016, 04:51 PM
Lol what makes Blatt better than SVG, Skiles, Vogel, Scott Brooks, ect.? Let's not act like he's this great coach.

flea
01-23-2016, 04:56 PM
Is that all you have in Blatt's defense? If so, it's no wonder he was fired. Blatt severely shortens his rotations in high profile games, something you can't see just from looking at MPG stats on the year.

I listed far more than one or two situations. Losing the respect of the entire team is catastrophic, so in what way are the basic things you listed going to offset that? In fact, I can list way more pros with Blatt than what you did, and they still don't make up for the fact that he didn't know how to manage his players and sucked at in-game adjustments.

Like I said, rip LBJ all you want, I think it's fair to do that... but saying Blatt didn't do anything wrong and ignoring the fact that he lost the locker room is ludicrous.

I won't argue with you anymore if you can't concede to that, since, continuing on it with you goes beyond actual fact and would delve more into your bias (as always) against LeBron.

I'm not saying the guy was perfect, I'm saying he's not the trash coach that people are saying. He wasn't allowed to run his offense, had diva stars who wouldn't listen but it was his fault for not saying it loud enough (???), yet his team still won. I agree with the other poster that this is personal, and not basketball-related. No he's not the best coach in the NBA currently, but he could be someday. He's certainly better than Lue - which makes it obvious it's personal and it's squarely at the feet of Lebron and his denials.


Lol what makes Blatt better than SVG, Skiles, Vogel, Scott Brooks, ect.? Let's not act like he's this great coach.

Uhhh 4 times Israeli Coach of the year, 6 championships there, coach of the year and champ in the Eurogleague, among many other highlights. He's one of the most accomplished basketball coaches in the world. He did nothing but win in the NBA (yes he had one of the most talented teams too). I see no evidence that he's a bad coach or not an accomplished coach.

flea
01-23-2016, 04:56 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14629132/david-blatt-firing-embarrassing-says-coaches-association-president-rick-carlisle

Bet most coaches feel this way even if they won't say it like Carlisle because he can do whatever he wants. Lmao at this quote:


"The other side of it is, a good man perhaps has been liberated and is now going to have some great options," Carlisle said. "He'll find a much better situation here if he wishes to, and a guy like him deserves that."

I wonder what coaches and other personnel around the league really think of how Lebron conducts his career. Everyone still jokes about The Decision and ESPN/NBA puts a happy face on it all because he's still a revenue guy. But look at Dwight now, he was just playful and sometimes childish with his Superman antics with the Magic. Then he got his coach fired, tanked an organization, did the same for the Lakers, and everyone laughs about him now because he's simply a good role player. That day is coming for Lebron.

5ass
01-23-2016, 05:28 PM
I'm not saying the guy was perfect, I'm saying he's not the trash coach that people are saying. He wasn't allowed to run his offense, had diva stars who wouldn't listen but it was his fault for not saying it loud enough (???), yet his team still won. I agree with the other poster that this is personal, and not basketball-related. No he's not the best coach in the NBA currently, but he could be someday. He's certainly better than Lue - which makes it obvious it's personal and it's squarely at the feet of Lebron and his denials.



Uhhh 4 times Israeli Coach of the year, 6 championships there, coach of the year and champ in the Eurogleague, among many other highlights. He's one of the most accomplished basketball coaches in the world. He did nothing but win in the NBA (yes he had one of the most talented teams too). I see no evidence that he's a bad coach or not an accomplished coach.
Sometimes its not about whether he's a good or bad coach, its about fit. All his accomplishments outside the NBA are impressive, but don't have much to do with how good he is at the NBA level.

Chronz
01-23-2016, 05:36 PM
Lol yeah. A system coach who couldn't integrate his system is somehow the right fit. Trying to run the Princeton with guys like Mozzy and TT as primary centers is about as smart as hiring DAntoni to run the twin towers in la or iso Melo in ny.

Ive seen bad coaches make the finals so why the duck would anyone care about that more than the relevant facts about his inability to command or earn respect?

flea
01-23-2016, 05:52 PM
Lol yeah. A system coach who couldn't integrate his system is somehow the right fit. Trying to run the Princeton with guys like Mozzy and TT as primary centers is about as smart as hiring DAntoni to run the twin towers in la or iso Melo in ny.

Ive seen bad coaches make the finals so why the duck would anyone care about that more than the relevant facts about his inability to command or earn respect?

More fiction, Blatt didn't intend to run a full Princeton. That would never work in the NBA with the shot clock and the way most NBA caliber big men are. His line was he was going to adapt his system to the personnel, and I thought he did a good job of it - particularly defensively. They sucked before getting Mozgov but the team really came around on that end.

Offensively I don't think he ever had any idea of not using Lebron in high P&Rs like he's done his entire career. But I think he did envision a more ball-movement oriented offense utilizing Kevin Love in various areas of the floor. Love is a pretty nice player for a Princeton-styled offense. None of it ever materialized to my knowledge, likely because his 2 ball-dominant stars have never played anything like that and didn't want to.

slashsnake
01-23-2016, 07:22 PM
Who else has defended the Warriors as well in the last 1.5 years besides Blatt's team? Was it entirely his assistants who were responsible for that, with 2 reserves starting no less? Was it Lebron who was behind the scenes coaching Thompson how to smother the passing lanes on Curry's P&Rs early in the series?

It sounds to me like you'd rather grasp at one or two situations, like the TO and not giving Lebron the ball for a fadeaway 2, than fairly assessing his ability as a coach. It's not like he forgot how to coach, and as for short rotations that is total BS. Lebron is playing a career low MPG and the team only has 2 guys averaging over 30 MPG. Not every team can cultivate the depth of teams like the Spurs.



Isn't that what you are doing? Game 2 and 3 of the finals?

Warriors 2015 reg season 110.5 a game vs. Cavs.
Warriors 2014 reg season 106 a game vs. Cavs.
Games 1,4,5,6 of finals 105 a game vs. Cavs.

And 1 or 2 situations...
Games 2/3 of finals 92.5 a game vs. Cavs.

2014 106 a game vs. Utah
2016 104 a game vs. Utah.

Go Quin Snyder.

flea
01-23-2016, 08:17 PM
No I was using his ability to coach a high-end defense against a historical offense while starting 2 backups as an example of how he got his team to go from one of the worst in the league defensively to mediocre and better in the playoffs (I also gave due credit to Mozgov).

It sounds like Blatt wants to stay in the NBA and someone is certainly going to give him a job if he wants it. We'll find out whether he's a crappy coach that held his team back or a good one that got railroaded by his star player. Given all that's come out and Blatt's reputation prior to Cleveland, sure sounding like the latter - but you can believe whichever you want.

slashsnake
01-23-2016, 08:49 PM
No I was using his ability to coach a high-end defense against a historical offense while starting 2 backups

So them playing D while missing the dominant defensive presences of Love and Irving is the reason, the "one or two things". Ok. Maybe I've been thinking about defense thing all wrong... Thompson and Delladova. Bad D. Love and Irving. So much better D. I might have to question that.



I really don't know the level of play in Israel for Blatt, I do know he quit a lot of jobs before the Cavs to move on to something better with or without a contract he was still under. Would you say it is tougher than Rick Pitino's non-NBA coaching experience? I mean where would you rate Blatt with Zeljko Obradovic, Dusan Ivkovic, Jorge Canavesi, or Ettore Messina or a step down?

flea
01-23-2016, 09:12 PM
So them playing D while missing the dominant defensive presences of Love and Irving is the reason, the "one or two things". Ok. Maybe I've been thinking about defense thing all wrong... Thompson and Delladova. Bad D. Love and Irving. So much better D. I might have to question that.



I really don't know the level of play in Israel for Blatt, I do know he quit a lot of jobs before the Cavs to move on to something better with or without a contract he was still under. Would you say it is tougher than Rick Pitino's non-NBA coaching experience? I mean where would you rate Blatt with Zeljko Obradovic, Dusan Ivkovic, Jorge Canavesi, or Ettore Messina or a step down?

I don't know about Israel but I think both college and the Euro-league are tougher for coaches. In the NBA everyone runs mostly the same thing on both sides of the floor. Like others have said, it's mostly about getting along with your stars and getting your role players to play their roles - there isn't some brilliant tactician out there because basketball is not that difficult of a game (unlike football). That's why guys who have never coached jump right in and do fine (Kidd, Fisher, now Lue). The situational things people harp on like set plays and timeout utilization - that is such a small part of the game. The difference between the absolute best and absolute worst at that is like, maybe a single win over the course of a season?

College on the other hand has a much more even talent distribution. It's a lot more about how the coach fits his players together in his system, how he actually coaches them on what they're supposed to do (something all NBA players pretty much figure out after 1 year), and how a coach can adjust his personnel to a lot of different types of defense and offense - not just keep running his own matchup zone scheme and P&R-based system that is almost the same as every other coach's.

NBA is a talent league, and a player's league, and it always will be because the top-end talent is so impactful. You can't coach a bunch unathletic guys into a workable defense like you can at other levels because most guys just can't play. It's a lot more like coaching in the MLB, it's mainly about reminding your players what they're doing than it is changing anything. The players mainly do it on their own because the funnel effect is such that to even sit on a bench in the NBA you have to be very good in your own right.

Chronz
01-23-2016, 09:17 PM
More fiction

What was the first one?


Blatt didn't intend to run a full Princeton. That would never work in the NBA with the shot clock and the way most NBA caliber big men are.
Never work in the NBA? Are you arguing semantics, if so, what do you call what Adelman has been doing his entire career? Most NBA caliber bigs are superior in every form to their collegiate comps so Im not seeing what you mean there. And either way, its HIS system, its what hes been known for and he tried to install it from day 1. They only stopped because the team got tired of losing and just scrapped his plans, with good reason, his system didn't fit the personnel and if not for the team coming to that conclusion in spite of him, they would have struggled all year.


His line was he was going to adapt his system to the personnel, and I thought he did a good job of it - particularly defensively. They sucked before getting Mozgov but the team really came around on that end.
In other words, the same thing Kurt Rambis said when he was going to adapt the triangle to fit the personnel. System coaches can still delude themselves with cliches bro, his actions speak more than anything and trying to adapt ANY significant portion of the Princeton with this squad is erroneous. Maybe when their wings were younger or if they had 2 good passing bigs instead of just 1 decent one and 2 horrendous ones.


Offensively I don't think he ever had any idea of not using Lebron in high P&Rs like he's done his entire career. But I think he did envision a more ball-movement oriented offense utilizing Kevin Love in various areas of the floor. Love is a pretty nice player for a Princeton-styled offense. None of it ever materialized to my knowledge, likely because his 2 ball-dominant stars have never played anything like that and didn't want to.
Love has played and thrived in it, ironically, if what Lue says is true about Love being on the elbows more, we'll be seeing him play in more of a princeton style offense than he ever did with Blatt. I never understood why Blatt didn't make Love the primary focus of the offense when Bron sat. He kept Love on the perimeter for some reason. At least with Bron-Wade-Bosh, whenever one of the stars sat, the other 2 played more to their strengths and mixed up their game. Bosh would post more without them, Wade would revert back to his prior season role. But with Love, his game stayed the same regardless. And no they never played anything like that but they did play off the ball more, Bron was getting pretty good at making quick cuts and duckins in the post. Bron is handling the ball more than he ever did in Miami or even his first stint in Cleveland. Maybe thats because hes declined soo much.

Same thing happened to Tmac, when he should have controlled the ball less as he aged.

slashsnake
01-23-2016, 09:32 PM
I don't know about Israel but I think both college and the Euro-league are tougher for coaches. In the NBA everyone runs mostly the same thing on both sides of the floor. Like others have said, it's mostly about getting along with your stars and getting your role players to play their roles - there isn't some brilliant tactician out there because basketball is not that difficult of a game (unlike football). That's why guys who have never coached jump right in and do fine (Kidd, Fisher, now Lue). The situational things people harp on like set plays and timeout utilization - that is such a small part of the game. The difference between the absolute best and absolute worst at that is like, maybe a single win over the course of a season?


I think we are mostly along here. Just when you are making those other mistakes, and not getting guys to play the roles you want them to, and unable to get your team behind you as a coach, you are struggling. The timeouts and sets are small but big too. That timeout if caught changes a series that was 2-2 to 1-3. A series really can hang on that.

So you are more saying that like Calipari or Pitino, it was less about his talent as a coach, as his fit as an NBA coach there?

flea
01-23-2016, 09:39 PM
So you are more saying that like Calipari or Pitino, it was less about his talent as a coach, as his fit as an NBA coach there?

Of course, especially Pitino. His career and coaching tree speaks for itself. Calipari I think is somewhat overrated because he has the most talent in the country literally every year now - and when he was at Memphis he had far and away the most talent in his conference. But he is a good defensive coach, I'm just not impressed with his bland offensive style that he uses in order to attract slashers like Rose and Wall to his program because they'll have the ball and get the numbers (similar to NBA offenses).

At high level programs in college, you would never see a 1st year head coach hired with no coaching experience. Hell you hardly ever see guys who have never had head coach experience hired. They would be completely out of their depth. But it often happens in the NBA because it's a buddy-league.

flea
01-23-2016, 09:47 PM
What was the first one?


Never work in the NBA? Are you arguing semantics, if so, what do you call what Adelman has been doing his entire career? Most NBA caliber bigs are superior in every form to their collegiate comps so Im not seeing what you mean there. And either way, its HIS system, its what hes been known for and he tried to install it from day 1. They only stopped because the team got tired of losing and just scrapped his plans, with good reason, his system didn't fit the personnel and if not for the team coming to that conclusion in spite of him, they would have struggled all year.


In other words, the same thing Kurt Rambis said when he was going to adapt the triangle to fit the personnel. System coaches can still delude themselves with cliches bro, his actions speak more than anything and trying to adapt ANY significant portion of the Princeton with this squad is erroneous. Maybe when their wings were younger or if they had 2 good passing bigs instead of just 1 decent one and 2 horrendous ones.


Love has played and thrived in it, ironically, if what Lue says is true about Love being on the elbows more, we'll be seeing him play in more of a princeton style offense than he ever did with Blatt. I never understood why Blatt didn't make Love the primary focus of the offense when Bron sat. He kept Love on the perimeter for some reason. At least with Bron-Wade-Bosh, whenever one of the stars sat, the other 2 played more to their strengths and mixed up their game. Bosh would post more without them, Wade would revert back to his prior season role. But with Love, his game stayed the same regardless. And no they never played anything like that but they did play off the ball more, Bron was getting pretty good at making quick cuts and duckins in the post. Bron is handling the ball more than he ever did in Miami or even his first stint in Cleveland. Maybe thats because hes declined soo much.

Same thing happened to Tmac, when he should have controlled the ball less as he aged.

Adelman didn't run a true Princeton, it was heavily modified. True Princeton you've got to have 5 shooters/passers/rebounders. The NBA just doesn't have that, hardly ever at the 5. Yeah Vlade was a fair shooter for an NBA 5 but you would never coach him to take those shots even if they were fairly open unless it was late-clock because he sucked at it. How many NBA 5s do you actually want taking jumpers? Maybe 2 or 3 (Towns and Horford are the only ones I can think of atm). For one thing that sort of personnel just doesn't fit how you win in the NBA - which is athletes at the rim and bigs who can do multiple things. For another the shotclock makes it impossible, and I think he knew that. Maybe Blatt will get to run what he wants on offense, but he adjusted to his personnel and let his star do his thing. Now the excuse from that star's fans is that's the reason he was fired.

Lebron's teammates and coaches just can't win - it's damned if you do and damned if you don't. Brown put an elite defense behind him and let him be the scorer, not a bad strategy but didn't turn out to be good enough. Spoelstra headed up the move to Lebron+4 shooters and kept them good defensively and Heat fans wanted to fire him every year. Lebron's superstar team and superstar role players age a bit and all of a sudden they're useless trash. Now his teammates are young and it's the coach's fault Lebron demands the ball so much on offense and hinders their offensive system's development.

slashsnake
01-23-2016, 10:11 PM
Of course, especially Pitino. His career and coaching tree speaks for itself. Calipari I think is somewhat overrated because he has the most talent in the country literally every year now - and when he was at Memphis he had far and away the most talent in his conference. But he is a good defensive coach, I'm just not impressed with his bland offensive style that he uses in order to attract slashers like Rose and Wall to his program because they'll have the ball and get the numbers (similar to NBA offenses).

At high level programs in college, you would never see a 1st year head coach hired with no coaching experience. Hell you hardly ever see guys who have never had head coach experience hired. They would be completely out of their depth. But it often happens in the NBA because it's a buddy-league.

Yeah, but if you consider recruiting part of a head coaches job in college, I think he's rated just fine. lol

Ok no issue with that outlook on him, I think we agree there.

Makes sense with your outlook on college. Depends on what you view... ie. Pitino can't do what Kerr can and vice versa, Pitino is more on the technical all-powerful side which is a no go in the NBA, Kerr is more of a motivator/facilitator who keeps things running in prime shape (and I really love what Kerr is done, would be fine using someone else here...) Neither is a bad thing.

NYKalltheway
01-23-2016, 10:12 PM
Of course, especially Pitino. His career and coaching tree speaks for itself. Calipari I think is somewhat overrated because he has the most talent in the country literally every year now - and when he was at Memphis he had far and away the most talent in his conference. But he is a good defensive coach, I'm just not impressed with his bland offensive style that he uses in order to attract slashers like Rose and Wall to his program because they'll have the ball and get the numbers (similar to NBA offenses).

At high level programs in college, you would never see a 1st year head coach hired with no coaching experience. Hell you hardly ever see guys who have never had head coach experience hired. They would be completely out of their depth. But it often happens in the NBA because it's a buddy-league.



I don't know about Israel but I think both college and the Euro-league are tougher for coaches. In the NBA everyone runs mostly the same thing on both sides of the floor. Like others have said, it's mostly about getting along with your stars and getting your role players to play their roles - there isn't some brilliant tactician out there because basketball is not that difficult of a game (unlike football). That's why guys who have never coached jump right in and do fine (Kidd, Fisher, now Lue). The situational things people harp on like set plays and timeout utilization - that is such a small part of the game. The difference between the absolute best and absolute worst at that is like, maybe a single win over the course of a season?

College on the other hand has a much more even talent distribution. It's a lot more about how the coach fits his players together in his system, how he actually coaches them on what they're supposed to do (something all NBA players pretty much figure out after 1 year), and how a coach can adjust his personnel to a lot of different types of defense and offense - not just keep running his own matchup zone scheme and P&R-based system that is almost the same as every other coach's.

NBA is a talent league, and a player's league, and it always will be because the top-end talent is so impactful. You can't coach a bunch unathletic guys into a workable defense like you can at other levels because most guys just can't play. It's a lot more like coaching in the MLB, it's mainly about reminding your players what they're doing than it is changing anything. The players mainly do it on their own because the funnel effect is such that to even sit on a bench in the NBA you have to be very good in your own right.

thank you for making this an actual basketball discussion without making it yet another cue competition.


Adelman didn't run a true Princeton, it was heavily modified. True Princeton you've got to have 5 shooters/passers/rebounders. The NBA just doesn't have that, hardly ever at the 5. Yeah Vlade was a fair shooter for an NBA 5 but you would never coach him to take those shots even if they were fairly open unless it was late-clock because he sucked at it. How many NBA 5s do you actually want taking jumpers? Maybe 2 or 3 (Towns and Horford are the only ones I can think of atm). For one thing that sort of personnel just doesn't fit how you win in the NBA - which is athletes at the rim and bigs who can do multiple things. For another the shotclock makes it impossible, and I think he knew that. Maybe Blatt will get to run what he wants on offense, but he adjusted to his personnel and let his star do his thing. Now the excuse from that star's fans is that's the reason he was fired.

Lebron's teammates and coaches just can't win - it's damned if you do and damned if you don't. Brown put an elite defense behind him and let him be the scorer, not a bad strategy but didn't turn out to be good enough. Spoelstra headed up the move to Lebron+4 shooters and kept them good defensively and Heat fans wanted to fire him every year. Lebron's superstar team and superstar role players age a bit and all of a sudden they're useless trash. Now his teammates are young and it's the coach's fault Lebron demands the ball so much on offense and hinders their offensive system's development.

couldn't agree more

Chronz
01-24-2016, 12:25 AM
Adelman didn't run a true Princeton, it was heavily modified.
Dude you're arguing semantics then. This is the NBA version of the princeton, anyone who says they are running that, it goes without saying they aren't talking about the collegiate principles.



True Princeton you've got to have 5 shooters/passers/rebounders. The NBA just doesn't have that, hardly ever at the 5.
Disagree, they have it more than the NCAA , the problem is they also have FAR superior defenders who are well versed in every system. What constitutes a good shooter in College doesn't carry the same weight in the NBA where its much harder to get shots off.


Yeah Vlade was a fair shooter for an NBA 5 but you would never coach him to take those shots even if they were fairly open unless it was late-clock because he sucked at it. How many NBA 5s do you actually want taking jumpers?
Yet because he was so much smarter at PASSING (the main component of the Princeton), he ran the offense better than any college kid ever could.


Maybe 2 or 3 (Towns and Horford are the only ones I can think of atm).
Thats pretty sad man, we have more elite shooters from big positions than at any point in NBA history, this IS the era of space and pace.


For one thing that sort of personnel just doesn't fit how you win in the NBA - which is athletes at the rim and bigs who can do multiple things. For another the shotclock makes it impossible, and I think he knew that.
Nonsense, how you win in the NBA is about more than offense, you can win with a mediocre offense if your defense is elite. Offensively, the Princeton has proven more than capable of producing given the right cast. The shot clock has nothing to do with it because we are talking about the NBA's version of the same offense. If you're saying Blatt didn't know the difference then even more of a reason to fire him.


Maybe Blatt will get to run what he wants on offense, but he adjusted to his personnel and let his star do his thing. Now the excuse from that star's fans is that's the reason he was fired.
I dont call it adjusting when the team flat out ignores your failing schemes. They've been running Lue and Brons stuff ever since they started winning at a high rate.


Lebron's teammates and coaches just can't win - it's damned if you do and damned if you don't. Brown put an elite defense behind him and let him be the scorer, not a bad strategy but didn't turn out to be good enough.
They can win, they just cant lose the locker room.


Spoelstra headed up the move to Lebron+4 shooters and kept them good defensively and Heat fans wanted to fire him every year.
LOL, only after he figured out that starting the corpses of Bibby and Dampier wasn't such a good idea. His biggest adjustment, and reasons for winning, was giving Bron more control (thanks to Wade as well) and spacing the floor, not exactly a brilliant development. Look at Spo now, not exactly lighting the world on fire.


Lebron's superstar team and superstar role players age a bit and all of a sudden they're useless trash. Now his teammates are young and it's the coach's fault Lebron demands the ball so much on offense and hinders their offensive system's development.
Useless? LOL you're exaggerating, but players DO decline as they age, Battier went from super valuable to unplayable in a span of a few months bro, it happens. Look at the offenses that Bron left behind, they aren't developing well. Would you rather play to your teams strengths and win, or hope a flawed roster can learn to play a different way?

ewing
01-24-2016, 12:35 AM
guys lets stop getting so deep. No wants to read all your ****. Blatt was holding back the great LeBron. only his teammates/coaches have held him back from being comparable/better then Jordan. its amazing that Jerry Kruse was able to give Jordan exactly what he needed.

Chronz
01-24-2016, 12:51 AM
guys lets stop getting so deep. No wants to read all your ****. Blatt was holding back the great LeBron. only his teammates/coaches have held him back from being comparable/better then Jordan.

You think I want to read straws and exaggerations? Blatt wasn't holding back Bron, he lost the team. Bron stopped running his **** once he saw how little wins it led to, this isn't a situation that was showing promise ala the triangle when MJ didn't buy in, this was a system that people were saying Bron grasped instantly but collective unit was inefficient.

Put yourself in his position, your team is struggling to win games playing that style, wouldn't you revert to what worked and once you see the wins rack up playing that style, its not easy to go back to the losing ways. Year 2, they began installing abit more motion but its still not the strength of the team, its obvious why, Bron DOES hold the ball too much, more than he ever did in the past IMO but I honestly think alot of that has to do with Kyrie not being a true PG or elite playmaker the way Wade was.


its amazing that Jerry Kruse was able to give Jordan exactly what he needed.
Amazing? It was a process bro, MJ learned to appreciate the offense because it improved the team, after that, he threatened retirement had they traded what he wanted/needed, thats not exactly amazing, thats a player forcing a franchise to bend to his will.

ewing
01-24-2016, 01:11 AM
You think I want to read straws and exaggerations? Blatt wasn't holding back Bron, he lost the team. Bron stopped running his **** once he saw how little wins it led to, this isn't a situation that was showing promise ala the triangle when MJ didn't buy in, this was a system that people were saying Bron grasped instantly but collective unit was inefficient.

Put yourself in his position, your team is struggling to win games playing that style, wouldn't you revert to what worked and once you see the wins rack up playing that style, its not easy to go back to the losing ways. Year 2, they began installing abit more motion but its still not the strength of the team, its obvious why, Bron DOES hold the ball too much, more than he ever did in the past IMO but I honestly think alot of that has to do with Kyrie not being a true PG or elite playmaker the way Wade was.


Amazing? It was a process bro, MJ learned to appreciate the offense because it improved the team, after that, he threatened retirement had they traded what he wanted/needed, thats not exactly amazing, thats a player forcing a franchise to bend to his will.


he is a victim.

Chronz
01-24-2016, 02:46 AM
Let it be known, I may get deep but its only cuz I enjoy the debate, even if you dont believe me, at least I can give you the other side of the argument, yes?

cubbie92
01-24-2016, 09:09 AM
You think I want to read straws and exaggerations? Blatt wasn't holding back Bron, he lost the team. Bron stopped running his **** once he saw how little wins it led to, this isn't a situation that was showing promise ala the triangle when MJ didn't buy in, this was a system that people were saying Bron grasped instantly but collective unit was inefficient.

Put yourself in his position, your team is struggling to win games playing that style, wouldn't you revert to what worked and once you see the wins rack up playing that style, its not easy to go back to the losing ways. Year 2, they began installing abit more motion but its still not the strength of the team, its obvious why, Bron DOES hold the ball too much, more than he ever did in the past IMO but I honestly think alot of that has to do with Kyrie not being a true PG or elite playmaker the way Wade was.



Let me ask you this question -- if Cleveland was able to come within one Kyrie Irving injury of making the Finals a whole lot more interesting and a 30-11 record to this point with an incompetent coach like Blatt, what exactly do you think their ceiling is? Are they title favorites with a good head coach? Or does it matter who they hire?

ewing
01-24-2016, 11:05 AM
Let it be known, I may get deep but its only cuz I enjoy the debate, even if you dont believe me, at least I can give you the other side of the argument, yes?

your love for Bron runs deep.

Vee-Rex
01-24-2016, 01:44 PM
No I was using his ability to coach a high-end defense against a historical offense while starting 2 backups as an example of how he got his team to go from one of the worst in the league defensively to mediocre and better in the playoffs (I also gave due credit to Mozgov).

It sounds like Blatt wants to stay in the NBA and someone is certainly going to give him a job if he wants it. We'll find out whether he's a crappy coach that held his team back or a good one that got railroaded by his star player. Given all that's come out and Blatt's reputation prior to Cleveland, sure sounding like the latter - but you can believe whichever you want.

If you're giving Blatt credit for that Cavs defense, you're wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O40OrXc-5U

Lue clearly states that he was the defensive coordinator for the Cavs at the 3-minute mark. He goes on to explain that anything defensive was ran through him, and anytime players had suggestions/questions they would go straight to him. The defensive accolades are credited to him. The substitutions, the lineup, and the aggressive/physical defense was because of Tyronn Lue.

It got to the point where Blatt was simply there... his offense failed and he gave substitutions and timeouts to Lue, and Lue was already controlling the defense.

Later in the interview he explained how David Blatt basically preached ISO-ball. Blatt gave in to perimeter-iso ball (8 min 20 second mark). Lue, on the other hand, is gonna emphasize ball movement.

Then he ends up explaining how he wants to change the communication culture. If a player might not get many minutes, he wishes to communicate that to them. He says Stan Van Gundy did that with him in Orlando and was upfront about everything. He says it's a change that the Cavs need. It's a subtle hint that Blatt never worked that way.

Blatt did a BAD job here. Who cares what he did in Europe? I don't think anyone is saying that he's a bad basketball coach overall. I think people are saying that he wasn't a good fit here and was in way over his head. It's not easy coaching so many egos and divas (hi LeBron!). The end result is that Blatt didn't do good at all.

Flea... I hope you're not too big/egotistical to admit when you're wrong about something.

Scoots
01-24-2016, 02:05 PM
Does anyone think that Blatt was the MAIN issue with the Cavs?

From the outside as a non-Cavs fan it looks like the team doesn't work as a whole, and while the coach is part of that ... I don't know if any rookie coach can overcome this roster.

flea
01-24-2016, 02:13 PM
If you're giving Blatt credit for that Cavs defense, you're wrong.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3O40OrXc-5U

Lue clearly states that he was the defensive coordinator for the Cavs at the 3-minute mark. He goes on to explain that anything defensive was ran through him, and anytime players had suggestions/questions they would go straight to him. The defensive accolades are credited to him. The substitutions, the lineup, and the aggressive/physical defense was because of Tyronn Lue.

It got to the point where Blatt was simply there... his offense failed and he gave substitutions and timeouts to Lue, and Lue was already controlling the defense.

Later in the interview he explained how David Blatt basically preached ISO-ball. Blatt gave in to perimeter-iso ball (8 min 20 second mark). Lue, on the other hand, is gonna emphasize ball movement.

Then he ends up explaining how he wants to change the communication culture. If a player might not get many minutes, he wishes to communicate that to them. He says Stan Van Gundy did that with him in Orlando and was upfront about everything. He says it's a change that the Cavs need. It's a subtle hint that Blatt never worked that way.

Blatt did a BAD job here. Who cares what he did in Europe? I don't think anyone is saying that he's a bad basketball coach overall. I think people are saying that he wasn't a good fit here and was in way over his head. It's not easy coaching so many egos and divas (hi LeBron!). The end result is that Blatt didn't do good at all.

Flea... I hope you're not too big/egotistical to admit when you're wrong about something.

Wow new coach says everything bad was the result of the guy that he replaced and everything good was the result of him - big surprise. I also saw him on TV last night say he's trying to do things the team isn't used to, another dig against the guy they just sacked. It was classless and I seriously doubt it's true. Why would a HOF coach let his assistant run everything on his team? Nobody can possibly believe that except maybe Lue and his mother.

I'll take your word that Blatt didn't do enough to placate his stars, but I do think he tried. And he's a hell of a lot better coach than Lue. The whole way this went about was classless and reflects poorly on the Cavs and Lebron in particular. I'm not the only guy saying this - I basically feel as Woj does. You're a big Cavs fan though, I don't expect you to agree with Woj or me.

Chronz
01-24-2016, 02:17 PM
your love for Bron runs deep.nah. I just don't hate the guy so i enjoy destroying the pitch forks.

Vee-Rex
01-24-2016, 02:41 PM
Wow new coach says everything bad was the result of the guy that he replaced and everything good was the result of him - big surprise. I also saw him on TV last night say he's trying to do things the team isn't used to, another dig against the guy they just sacked. It was classless and I seriously doubt it's true. Why would a HOF coach let his assistant run everything on his team? Nobody can possibly believe that except maybe Lue and his mother.

I'll take your word that Blatt didn't do enough to placate his stars, but I do think he tried.

Dude... it's fact. You're having a hard time believing it because you want to place 100% of the blame on LeBron.

Do you think Lue would blatantly lie and say he was the 'De Facto' defensive coordinator? He said he played the same role with Doc Rivers in LA. Would he blatantly lie about his role prior to being the head coach?

Would Brendan Haywood lie about Lue's role in calling timeouts and running substitutions?

You're not taking MY word, you're taking the word of guys that are actually involved in the situation.


I'm not the only guy saying this - I basically feel as Woj does. You're a big Cavs fan though, I don't expect you to agree with Woj or me.

Sure, I feel it was classless too. I feel diva Bron had his hand in all of it.

But this isn't a black or white situation. Just because diva Bron got what he wanted doesn't mean that Blatt didn't do a bad job coaching here, and I feel like this thread would be 2 pages shorter if you would admit to that.

Man, it's like pulling teeth on this site. No one wants to admit when they're wrong OR if the person they're debating has made a great point about something.

SLY WILLIAMS
01-24-2016, 04:42 PM
your love for Bron runs deep.

Come on Ewing be fair. If Lebron robs a bank its obviously the security guards fault ..... or Larry Bird's fault. :D

Da Knicks
01-24-2016, 06:18 PM
Come on Ewing be fair. If Lebron robs a bank its obviously the security guards fault ..... or Larry Bird's fault. :D

😂 Lmao that's how I feel when reading all the bron love, how could anything ever be his fault!😂😂

kubernetes
01-24-2016, 06:25 PM
I was discussing this with a friend yesterday, I think the Cavs have an extremely talented roster, with all the pieces in place..

Scoring/Offense: Irving, Love, LeBron
Rebounding: Love, LeBron, TT, Mozgov
Perimeter D: LeBron (when he tried), Shumpert, JR Smith
Inside D: Mozgov, TT (This may be their biggest weakness)
Shooting: Kyrie, JR Smith, Kevin Love (not great, but good shooter)

That being said, the Warriors came in and dismantled this roster.

That's because you're looking at it wrong. Split this simply into Offense/Defense. How many Cavs players are good on both sides of the ball? Lebron and maybe Delly (JR is not a defender, imo). Cavs are almost completely composed of one-way specialists. The Spurs and Warriors go 12-deep with competent two-way players. Every time a Cavs coach puts out a lineup or makes a substitution, he's making huge tradeoffs when it comes to offense vs defense.

ewing
01-24-2016, 06:34 PM
Come on Ewing be fair. If Lebron robs a bank its obviously the security guards fault ..... or Larry Bird's fault. :D

i blame the vault

tdg823
01-25-2016, 05:34 AM
Bro...lol....

slashsnake
01-25-2016, 03:05 PM
Here's a question on the Blatt didn't do enough to push his offense last year..

We all saw that they did run Blatt's stuff a lot of the year, really the finals was where it truly ONLY became Lebron ISO ball on offense. Was that because of the situation? Knowing, no Love or Irving and having Delly, JR, Mozzy and TT in there it was going to be a lot of movement with guys not used to big minutes and a thin bench and a lot of passing and decisionmaking by guys who aren't known for either.

I am wondering and not even sold on this myself, but if it wasn't something more like, lets lets the guards stand and pop threes if they are open, the bigs pick occasionally and crash the offensive glass occasionally, and keep everyone as fresh as they can be on D, and rely on Lebron to try to provide the energy, knowing he's the one who can play both ends for 45 minutes or more. That they felt they had a better shot to have those guys with fresh legs on D than to run his offense.

Vee-Rex
01-26-2016, 01:03 AM
Here's an interesting fact:

In only his 2nd game of head coaching against the Timberwolves, Tyrone Lue has had the Cavaliers produce the 2nd most total assists in a regular season game since January of 2015 (mid-season trades for JR/Shump/Mozgov). The only game that produced more assists were in November 2015 against Orlando, a game in which Love got his season high and JR got his season high because they couldn't miss from long range.

It is the 3rd most assists the Cavaliers have had in a regular season game since the big three (Love/Irving/James) started playing together.

Nikeman
01-26-2016, 01:44 AM
Here's an interesting fact:

In only his 2nd game of head coaching against the Timberwolves, Tyrone Lue has had the Cavaliers produce the 2nd most total assists in a regular season game since January of 2015 (mid-season trades for JR/Shump/Mozgov). The only game that produced more assists were in November 2015 against Orlando, a game in which Love got his season high and JR got his season high because they couldn't miss from long range.

It is the 3rd most assists the Cavaliers have had in a regular season game since the big three (Love/Irving/James) started playing together.

Dude.. your looking at just the offense, their defense was horrible and they let Minnesota climb out of the hole from a 15 point lead, if the Cavs just change their philosophy of scoring 100 and allowing 92 to scoring 115 to allowing 110 thats not progress.

Vee-Rex
01-26-2016, 02:34 AM
Dude.. your looking at just the offense, their defense was horrible and they let Minnesota climb out of the hole from a 15 point lead, if the Cavs just change their philosophy of scoring 100 and allowing 92 to scoring 115 to allowing 110 thats not progress.

Sheez, chill out. What point do you think I was trying to make? I just thought it was interesting that they seem to be emphasizing passing the ball more. Only a game so we gotta see more.

You respond as if I claimed they're the best team or something.

IKnowHoops
01-26-2016, 03:02 AM
Man...the Warriors are so impressive that nothing else done by any other team is impressive at this point. Nobody has a chance against them right now. Season over. LOL.

I no longer think the Cavs can beat this team as currently constructed. I'm even going to say they would beat the Bulls, Lakers, Celtics, etc. It is the best team I have ever seen. They truly are video game great. Its a joke to watch. They are awesome.

Tre you win.

NYKalltheway
01-26-2016, 07:06 AM
They truly are video game great. Its a joke to watch. They are awesome.
Pretty much :D
It's as if they're messing with the sliders and **** like that

ewing
01-26-2016, 08:23 AM
very very well coached.