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sheesh
01-20-2016, 03:27 PM
At this point it's clear that a team with Westbrook running the show just doesn't have it in them to win a title.

I've watched the Thunder over the years. They first caught my attention when I saw possibly the GOAT scoring prospect rack up 3 NBA scoring titles on unheard of perimeter efficiency. An impossible sight, a rail thin shooting wizard with surprising handles and driving ability. This was a team marketed and owned by Kevin Durant. There was a point where the only debate in the NBA, the only thing that mattered was "Who owns the league for the next 5-10 years, LeBron and Durant?"

I compare them to first Shaq Kobe 3-peat. It was clearly Shaq's (Durant) team and it ran through him, while Kobe (Westbrook) was the sidekick who offered the help the put them over the top. Except in the Thunder's case they could only reach the Finals.

Then something changed following that Finals loss to the Heat. Westbrook started asserting himself more. He started dribbling excessively, he started shooting excessively, he started getting to the foul line more, he started taking a **** ton of shots, he started closing out games himself. It became a power struggle for the next 2 years or so between KD and Westbrook. It was a your turn, my turn atrocity of just terribly run offense.

Then following the MVP season by KD the takeover become complete. Westbrook essentially through sheer force of will turned the Thunder into his team even while playing with the reigning league MVP and best scorer in 20 years. Then transferred himself into what was already too solo mode of a player into arguably the most ball dominant player the league has ever seen.

And this team, this style of play will not produce an NBA championship. Westbrook is not good enough to be Michael Jordan out there. The Jordan mystique now about 20 years in the past is wearing out. Hero ball only worked for Michael Jordan. Basketball is now reverting back to a team game. Where the best team play produces an NBA championship(s).

Russell Westbrook can play for a team that wins an NBA title. But to do it he's going to have to revert back to the player he was during Durant's first three scoring title years. Ideally you would like him to tone it down to even less than that. But at this point it's clear, he plays the way he plays.

LOb0
01-20-2016, 03:32 PM
I completely disagree. If the Thunder didn't have a team of bums surounding WB, KD and Ibaka they could easily win a title.

Tony_Starks
01-20-2016, 03:34 PM
they said the same thing about Kobe.

justsayin....

sheesh
01-20-2016, 03:37 PM
they said the same thing about Kobe.

justsayin....

1. Kobe wasn't as ball dominant as Westbrook. Especially when you factor in Westbrooks excessive dribbling.

2. Kobe had Gasol and Bynum and was not afraid of using them. Gasol actually saved the Finals for the Lakers.

3. Kobe is a better player than Westbrook.

DanG
01-20-2016, 03:45 PM
Westbrook has shot 17-19 shots per game since 2010 except for last year, but Durant was injured so there was nothing else for him to do. He is not the problem, the whole roster built around him and KD is. Russell is an amazing talent and the league needs more players with a mentality like that. It's not really his fault Durant turns so passive at times.

sheesh
01-20-2016, 03:49 PM
Westbrook has shot 17-19 shots per game since 2010 except for last year, but Durant was injured so there was nothing else for him to do. He is not the problem, the whole roster built around him and KD is. Russell is an amazing talent and the league needs more players with a mentality like that. It's not really his fault Durant turns so passive at times.

This isn't the point though. Tony Parker used to take kind of a lot of shots. But I wouldn't ever classify him as ball dominant because he would take 2 dribbles and either shoot, drive or pass.

Likewise Nash didn't used to take a lot of shots, but I would call him very ball dominant because he completely dominated the pace of the game and the offense.

Westbrook does that while also taking many shots.

Tony_Starks
01-20-2016, 03:51 PM
they said the same thing about Kobe.

justsayin....

1. Kobe wasn't as ball dominant as Westbrook. Especially when you factor in Westbrooks excessive dribbling.

2. Kobe had Gasol and Bynum and was not afraid of using them. Gasol actually saved the Finals for the Lakers.

3. Kobe is a better player than Westbrook.


1. Russ racks up triple doubles with his ball dominance. He's breaking records.

2. Gasol got totally punked for the first finals and Kobe had to light a fire under him for the rest. Bynum was hurt 2/3 Finals and the majority of his career with the Lakers. Those KD and Ibaka guys are pretty good too.

3. You're absolutely right.....but missing the point.

sheesh
01-20-2016, 03:53 PM
1. Russ racks up triple doubles with his ball dominance. He's breaking records.

2. Gasol got totally punked for the first finals and Kobe had to light a fire under him for the rest. Bynum was hurt 2/3 Finals and the majority of his career with the Lakers. Those KD and Ibaka guys are pretty good too.

3. You're absolutely right.....but missing the point.

That's my point. He's excessively involved in the offense.

KnicksorBust
01-20-2016, 03:57 PM
Sadly I agree. I just don't like Westbrook. I've never believed in him. LeBron knows how to play 50% smart and 50% aggressive. Most stars find that balance. Westbrook is all aggressive and heart. That's why so many people love him and so many people rip him.

sheesh
01-20-2016, 03:59 PM
Sadly I agree. I just don't like Westbrook. I've never believed in him. LeBron knows how to play 50% smart and 50% aggressive. Most stars find that balance. Westbrook is all aggressive and heart. That's why so many people love him and so many people rip him.

LeBron won titles when he found out going solo could only get him so far. I thought his first title run was incredible show of team play and just doing everything he needed to do.

KnicksorBust
01-20-2016, 04:05 PM
LeBron won titles when he found out going solo could only get him so far. I thought his first title run was incredible show of team play and just doing everything he needed to do.

The difference is LeBron was deferring and making the "smart" play even when he had teammates like Donyell Marshall and Eric Snow. Westbrook makes the out of control play with Durant and Ibaka. That's a scary thought.

mngopher35
01-20-2016, 04:08 PM
The last time they made the playoffs (after Durants MVP regular season) Westbrook was the best Thunder player in the post season. Ibaka got injured I believe and they played that ridiculous Spurs team so unfortunately they didn't go all the way but still not only wasn't he an issue but he was the top performer.

Westy isn't perfect but people go way overboard in blaming him for the lack of Thunder success when in reality coaching/injuries have been a bigger issue than him. He creates so much for that team offensively.

ManningToTyree
01-20-2016, 04:14 PM
I don't think that is necessarily true I just don't think the thunder front office knows how to build a roster around their stars. It's been one mistake move after another starting with harden

sheesh
01-20-2016, 04:20 PM
The last time they made the playoffs (after Durants MVP regular season) Westbrook was the best Thunder player in the post season. Ibaka got injured I believe and they played that ridiculous Spurs team so unfortunately they didn't go all the way but still not only wasn't he an issue but he was the top performer.

Westy isn't perfect but people go way overboard in blaming him for the lack of Thunder success when in reality coaching/injuries have been a bigger issue than him. He creates so much for that team offensively.

So a team lead by Russell Westbrook can win an NBA Title????

mngopher35
01-20-2016, 04:26 PM
The last time they made the playoffs (after Durants MVP regular season) Westbrook was the best Thunder player in the post season. Ibaka got injured I believe and they played that ridiculous Spurs team so unfortunately they didn't go all the way but still not only wasn't he an issue but he was the top performer.

Westy isn't perfect but people go way overboard in blaming him for the lack of Thunder success when in reality coaching/injuries have been a bigger issue than him. He creates so much for that team offensively.

So a team lead by Russell Westbrook can win an NBA Title????

Sure, this thunder team could. I wouldn't say it is likely but that's not because of Westbrook, there are just other teams with more overall talent/fit like the Warriors/Spurs. Thunder still aren't quite filled with the right role players and still have questionable coaching but this thunder team is in the hunt despite that.

Bostonjorge
01-20-2016, 04:32 PM
Westbrook always has a chance to win a title

ManRam
01-20-2016, 04:34 PM
Probably the second best player in the NBA this season. So, yeah...I'd love to have him leading my team.

sheesh
01-20-2016, 04:52 PM
Probably the second best player in the NBA this season. So, yeah...I'd love to have him leading my team.

So his style of play is conducive to an NBA team winning a championship?

Tony_Starks
01-20-2016, 05:02 PM
With the right coach, right scheme, and the right pieces Westbrook could indeed lead a team to a chip.

If Allen Iverson could one man band it to the Finals and get a game out of arguably the best Finals team ever, anything is possible.

In fact a team composed of Chauncey and Sheed as starters, two guys who were at the time the complete opposite of what's considered winning basketball players, won a chip and contended for years.

With proper coaching, the right scheme...

valade16
01-20-2016, 05:16 PM
As has been said, AI took his team to the finals. But better yet, IT won 2 titles.

Of course people are going to counter he had a stacked team, but was it really any more stacked than the Bron Heat, Curry Warriors, Kobe Lakers, Duncan Spurs, Jordan Bulls, Magic Lakers, or Bird Celtics?

IndyRealist
01-20-2016, 05:23 PM
Highest TS% of his career. Highest 2pt FG% of his career. Highest FTA/min of his career. With little to no slippage from Durant. I'd say the offensive balance they have now is better than when Westy played 2nd fiddle. The question is not whether you can win a title with Westbrook running things, but if you can with an underperforming Serge Ibaka as your 3rd best player.

I was a confirmed Westbrook hater for years, not because he was bad but because he was vastly overrated. Now he really deserves the credit he gets.

sheesh
01-20-2016, 05:38 PM
Highest TS% of his career. Highest 2pt FG% of his career. Highest FTA/min of his career. With little to no slippage from Durant. I'd say the offensive balance they have now is better than when Westy played 2nd fiddle. The question is not whether you can win a title with Westbrook running things, but if you can with an underperforming Serge Ibaka as your 3rd best player.

I was a confirmed Westbrook hater for years, not because he was bad but because he was vastly overrated. Now he really deserves the credit he gets.

Role Players cannot flourish with Westbrook's playing style. A guy like Durant is fine because of his natural scoring ability.

valade16
01-20-2016, 05:46 PM
Role Players cannot flourish with Westbrook's playing style. A guy like Durant is fine because of his natural scoring ability.

Which role players? Enes Kanter has been stupid efficient with Westbrook.

mngopher35
01-20-2016, 05:55 PM
Role Players cannot flourish with Westbrook's playing style. A guy like Durant is fine because of his natural scoring ability.

I dunno, I would think having the best +/- on the team (pretty clearly) would be a sign the team flourishes when him and his playing style are on the court. Kanter seems to have a bigger impact since joining the Thunder too and I consider him a role player. Ibaka/Roberson/Adams are assisted on (87%, 76%, 73%) of their shots but I doubt Westbrook is a major contributor to that scoring since it's not like he starts with them, leads the team in assists (over double Durant), or has an attacking style that moves defenses and opens opportunities for teammates due to adjustments.

Wait what was the reasoning these guys can't flourish next to him again?

sheesh
01-20-2016, 06:14 PM
I dunno, I would think having the best +/- on the team (pretty clearly) would be a sign the team flourishes when him and his playing style are on the court. Kanter seems to have a bigger impact since joining the Thunder too and I consider him a role player. Ibaka/Roberson/Adams are assisted on (87%, 76%, 73%) of their shots but I doubt Westbrook is a major contributor to that scoring since it's not like he starts with them, leads the team in assists (over double Durant), or has an attacking style that moves defenses and opens opportunities for teammates due to adjustments.

Wait what was the reasoning these guys can't flourish next to him again?

Because there is no team cohesion. Westbrook always has the ball.

LOb0
01-20-2016, 06:28 PM
Because there is no team cohesion. Westbrook always has the ball.

But he's second in PER. Him having the ball is a good thing. It sounds like everything possible is telling you that you're wrong and you have nothing to back it up.

Twins Fanatic
01-20-2016, 06:41 PM
Because there is no team cohesion. Westbrook always has the ball.

He plays the point man, of course he gonna have the ball much of the time. I've watched the dude play, it's hard not to chuck of a shot when you do pass the ball and it end up back in your hand when the shot clock is expiring. Last I checked he was 2nd in assist in the league, that's gotta count for something. I rather have him over Harden, Wall, Paul, Lowry, Conley, Teague, Lillard, Thomas....

The guys a competitor, plays at 100mph all the time; that's something I can't hate on. No one hated on Derrick Rose when he was hogging the ball in Chicago, and Russell's numbers are arguably better than D-Rose's MVP season.

numba1CHANGsta
01-20-2016, 06:45 PM
No PG lead team have been successful in winning titles unless you're Magic, but even Magic had the best center at the time Kareem. I don't consider Curry a true PG so he doesn't really fall in the category of a Stockton, Payton, Nash, Kidd, CP3, etc. Westbrook is actually a true PG but dominates the ball too much, he wants to average 30 points while averaging 10 assists. The only player I know who could succeeded in accomplishing those stats while winning championships is LeBron, but then again it helps a lot when you have 2 superstars on the same team. Westbrook needs a Cousins type of player with a solid wing shooter and a wing defender to win an NBA title.

Vincent
01-20-2016, 06:55 PM
He plays the point man, of course he gonna have the ball much of the time. I've watched the dude play, it's hard not to chuck of a shot when you do pass the ball and it end up back in your hand when the shot clock is expiring. Last I checked he was 2nd in assist in the league, that's gotta count for something. I rather have him over Harden, Wall, Paul, Lowry, Conley, Teague, Lillard, Thomas....

The guys a competitor, plays at 100mph all the time; that's something I can't hate on. No one hated on Derrick Rose when he was hogging the ball in Chicago, and Russell's numbers are arguably better than D-Rose's MVP season.

Actually plenty of people hated on Derrick Rose during his MVP season (mainly Miami Heat fans). It just so happened that he had to play with a whole cast of players that couldn't get off their own shot (which isn't the case with Westbrook).

mngopher35
01-20-2016, 07:09 PM
Because there is no team cohesion. Westbrook always has the ball.

Again though this team is clearly FAR better with him on the court "dominating" the ball then when he isn't. People have already mentioned Kanter as an example of a role player improving next to him so explain that idea again in depth. Much of that team is limited offensively and needs someone to create (as shown with Ibaka, Roberson, Adams) which falls to Westbrook.

Westbrook is the engine to that teams offense with his penetration/creating skills for both himself and others. It is currently about 2nd in the league in ORTG too so I'd say that means he is doing a pretty good job. KD certainly can get his own and is more efficient than Westy but the rest of that team isn't on that same level of offense and most need help creating shots which Westbrook does very effectively (and it even opens things up for KD at times too with the rotations/breakdowns he creates).

On top of what I have mentioned Westbrook leads the league in real plus minus, is second in assists, and 3rd in points. I could go more into advanced stats where he also comes out as one of the top players in the league but really this should be enough.

YOUGOTAGETUP
01-20-2016, 07:12 PM
I've always noticed that the harder it gets, the more frustrated westbrook gets and then he starts taking bad shots.

Knick bag
01-20-2016, 07:52 PM
So a team lead by Russell Westbrook can win an NBA Title????

Sure they can. Westbrook is averaging a career high 10.3 assist per 36 minutes and he an KD are the top duo in the league. I used to think he was to ball dominant to the detriment of KD but he has evolved into a much more rounded player this season. The triple doubles he's racking up prove it. I think KD defers a little too much at times. Before the season started I thought KD would leave because Westbrook dominates the ball so much but they are working really well together this season and Westbrook is sharing the ball more than ever. They are the 3rd/4th best team in the west with the Clippers and they are starting to play much better as a group since Canter started coming off the bench.

sheesh
01-20-2016, 09:25 PM
Sure they can. Westbrook is averaging a career high 10.3 assist per 36 minutes and he an KD are the top duo in the league. I used to think he was to ball dominant to the detriment of KD but he has evolved into a much more rounded player this season. The triple doubles he's racking up prove it. I think KD defers a little too much at times. Before the season started I thought KD would leave because Westbrook dominates the ball so much but they are working really well together this season and Westbrook is sharing the ball more than ever. They are the 3rd/4th best team in the west with the Clippers and they are starting to play much better as a group since Canter started coming off the bench.

Everybody keeps trying to justify Westbrook ball dominance with numbers.

This isn't baseball and it never will be.

Ball dominant PGs who over dribble and or overshoot don't win.

Curry is an exception because he's so lethal off ball. He can dominate the game without the ball.

Westbrook is only useful with the ball.

LOb0
01-20-2016, 10:55 PM
Everybody keeps trying to justify Westbrook ball dominance with numbers.

This isn't baseball and it never will be.

Ball dominant PGs who over dribble and or overshoot don't win.

Curry is an exception because he's so lethal off ball. He can dominate the game without the ball.

Westbrook is only useful with the ball.

What about Kobe? They had Derek Fisher running the point and Kobe handled the ball most of the time.

By your flawed logic they should just get some average or below average PG, start him and move Westbrook to SG and some magical way the problem is solved.

You're overrating positions.

IndyRealist
01-20-2016, 11:12 PM
Role Players cannot flourish with Westbrook's playing style. A guy like Durant is fine because of his natural scoring ability.

Allen Iverson took a team of defensive role players to the Finals. What you're saying is essentially that Westy's a ball hog, but his usage isn't that different from Curry's.

jerellh528
01-20-2016, 11:15 PM
A Westbrook led team may never win a title, but not because a Westbrook led team isn't capable of winning one. If he went east I could easily seeing a Westbrook led team go to multiple finals, and once you get to the finals you have a puncher's chance. You could literally put Westbrook on almost any team in the east and make them compete for the conference minus the obvious bottom feeding teams like 6ers n nets.

IndyRealist
01-20-2016, 11:22 PM
Everybody keeps trying to justify Westbrook ball dominance with numbers.

This isn't baseball and it never will be.

Ball dominant PGs who over dribble and or overshoot don't win.

Curry is an exception because he's so lethal off ball. He can dominate the game without the ball.

Westbrook is only useful with the ball.
1) Saying "this isn't baseball" is crap and has been disproved over and over. John Hollinger works for an NBA team. EVERY team employs sports economists now. Mark Cuban credited the 2011 championship to his stats team. The Warriors whole system is based on statistical analysis.

2) "Ball dominant PGs who over dribble and or overshoot don't win" is your hypothesis. You haven't proven it you just keep repeating it. That's called circular logic.

Nikeman
01-21-2016, 01:48 AM
Disagree completely, Westbrook at one point this season was averaging 27+. With Durant back and healthy, his scoring average has dropped to 24. Both Westy and Durant average 18 shots a game, that is a little bit less tha ideal, you probably want Durant closer to 20 and Westy at 15-16, but 2 shots a game isn't going to kill them.

He's had 5 games in January with 15+ assists, and its Westbrook, who gets his big men easy buckets. There is nobody who can guard this guy 1 on 1. He easily blows by anybody guarding him often causing a breakdown in the D where he gets his guys easy lay ups.

Yes with Westy you will get a couple boneheaded shots a game, but you can live with that when you are getting the most explosive player in the game. The team needs to make a couple moves at the trade deadline and boost their bench scoring and production and add some shooting, but their starting group can compete with anyone. Westy and Durant are two of the top 4 players in the game, and both unstoppable in their own right. This team has a chance to beat GS in my opinion, and while people call that ridiculous, I think this team can truly give GS trouble.

sheesh
01-21-2016, 03:37 AM
1) Saying "this isn't baseball" is crap and has been disproved over and over. John Hollinger works for an NBA team. EVERY team employs sports economists now. Mark Cuban credited the 2011 championship to his stats team. The Warriors whole system is based on statistical analysis.

2) "Ball dominant PGs who over dribble and or overshoot don't win" is your hypothesis. You haven't proven it you just keep repeating it. That's called circular logic.

1. It's not baseball. A team is effective in basketball. In baseball it is pitcher vs hitter. Mano a Mano. Thus in baseball individual stats are vastly more effective at measuring player performance than they are in basketball. You sign a FA pitcher and you know how he will play on his new team. The plate and the mound never change. Sign a FA basketball player and he has to play in a system.

2. Go look at the USG% of title winning PG's. It's very low. That's not circular. And USG doesn't even cover over dribbling and insistence on making the assist.

Tony_Starks
01-21-2016, 10:40 AM
A Westbrook led team may never win a title, but not because a Westbrook led team isn't capable of winning one. If he went east I could easily seeing a Westbrook led team go to multiple finals, and once you get to the finals you have a puncher's chance. You could literally put Westbrook on almost any team in the east and make them compete for the conference minus the obvious bottom feeding teams like 6ers n nets.

This is true. If Westbrook had a decent squad in the east he'd be virtually a lock for the Finals every year.

Alayla
01-21-2016, 11:20 AM
Ive been defending Westbrook since day 1 there's no need to make my stance known in depth again but i will say this.
with the thunders first coach Westbrooks "ball dominance" was entirely by design to get open shots for his team.
Elements of that have carried over as other posters have proven its working he demands so much attention that assisted baskets for his teammates are just about free this is a problem with the quality of the supporting cast not a lack of Westbrook elevating them a polished turd is still a turd.

Knick bag
01-21-2016, 12:58 PM
Everybody keeps trying to justify Westbrook ball dominance with numbers.

This isn't baseball and it never will be.

Ball dominant PGs who over dribble and or overshoot don't win.

Curry is an exception because he's so lethal off ball. He can dominate the game without the ball.

Westbrook is only useful with the ball.

Isiah Thomas...just saying

Twins Fanatic
01-21-2016, 01:12 PM
If last season wasn't any justification of Westbrook leading/carrying a team, I guess I don't really understand basketball. The Thunder were what, 4-12 before Westbrook came back from his hand injury and the Thunder would finish with 45-37 record. That's a big hole to dig a team out of to finish with that type of record. Yeah, they didn't make the playoff, but he sure as hell tried bringing them there. His floor spacing is ridiculous; I just watch him whoop on my Wolves twice last week, which isn't saying much, but at least I watched the dude play before throwing my judgement out there. And yes, I've seen more than two OKC games, probably watch at least 25 OKC games in the past season and a half.

Scoots
01-21-2016, 01:20 PM
I think this is one of those things that will stay "true" to people until it's proven false. Just like jump-shooting teams can't win the title ... oh ... oops :)

Hawkeye15
01-21-2016, 01:34 PM
Sadly I agree. I just don't like Westbrook. I've never believed in him. LeBron knows how to play 50% smart and 50% aggressive. Most stars find that balance. Westbrook is all aggressive and heart. That's why so many people love him and so many people rip him.

very true. I love Westbrook's heart. He is just so aggressive, it's not what ends up winning when he plays the way he does many times.

IndyRealist
01-21-2016, 01:58 PM
1. It's not baseball. A team is effective in basketball. In baseball it is pitcher vs hitter. Mano a Mano. Thus in baseball individual stats are vastly more effective at measuring player performance than they are in basketball. You sign a FA pitcher and you know how he will play on his new team. The plate and the mound never change. Sign a FA basketball player and he has to play in a system.

2. Go look at the USG% of title winning PG's. It's very low. That's not circular. And USG doesn't even cover over dribbling and insistence on making the assist.

1. Baseball is not pitcher vs hitter. It's hitter and runners vs pitcher, infield and outfield. What you're saying is that it doesn't matter how good your 1st baseman or shortstop is, only your pitcher. And getting steals is worthless, because all that matters is what your batter does. Doesn't that sound ridiculous?

Basketball stats are more consistent from year to year, adjusting for age, than ANY other American pro team sport. That's regardless of trades, coaching changes, etc. Player stats in basketball are more individual performance than baseball.

1b. Coaches are incentivized to maximize a player's effectiveness, to get more wins and keep his job. They will gravitate toward letting a player play to his maximum effectiveness. The exceptions being coaches like D'Antoni, who run the same system whether they have Amar'e or Shaq. Those coaches fail or succeed based on the fit of their players, most everyone else adapts to their personnel. Very few coaches have a measurable, sustainable impact on player performance.

2. The usage of championship PGs is low historically because, outside of the last 15 years, the game has been dominated by big men. Prior to the 2000s you gave the ball to your post player and got out of the way, with the notable exception of Michael Jordan. Post-Shaq the rules are completely different, giving rise to the 3pt barrage we see today. Saying what happened 20 years ago proves your point is erroneous. It's a different game. What you suggest is correlation, not causation.

valade16
01-21-2016, 02:09 PM
Ultra efficient, dominant two-way, elite PGs like Stockton and CP3 will never lead their team to a title.

Discuss?

Yanks All Day
01-21-2016, 02:37 PM
Maybe it's Kevin Durant.

sheesh
01-21-2016, 04:19 PM
1. Baseball is not pitcher vs hitter. It's hitter and runners vs pitcher, infield and outfield. What you're saying is that it doesn't matter how good your 1st baseman or shortstop is, only your pitcher. And getting steals is worthless, because all that matters is what your batter does. Doesn't that sound ridiculous?

Basketball stats are more consistent from year to year, adjusting for age, than ANY other American pro team sport. That's regardless of trades, coaching changes, etc. Player stats in basketball are more individual performance than baseball.

1b. Coaches are incentivized to maximize a player's effectiveness, to get more wins and keep his job. They will gravitate toward letting a player play to his maximum effectiveness. The exceptions being coaches like D'Antoni, who run the same system whether they have Amar'e or Shaq. Those coaches fail or succeed based on the fit of their players, most everyone else adapts to their personnel. Very few coaches have a measurable, sustainable impact on player performance.

2. The usage of championship PGs is low historically because, outside of the last 15 years, the game has been dominated by big men. Prior to the 2000s you gave the ball to your post player and got out of the way, with the notable exception of Michael Jordan. Post-Shaq the rules are completely different, giving rise to the 3pt barrage we see today. Saying what happened 20 years ago proves your point is erroneous. It's a different game. What you suggest is correlation, not causation.

1. Baseball uses fielding independent pitching metrics to better isolate the pitcher from the defense. It's not perfect and of course defense matters, but the pitcher is much more important at run prevention than the defense. Over the course of a players career his FIP very closely mirrors ERA in most cases. Some exceptions are guys like Jim Palmer who played on probably the GOAT defense in his career. And was pretty good at raising his strikeout rate in high leverage situations. But all in all a pitcher can go out there and prevent walks and HR's exclusively by himself and get people out by himself. And BABIP tends to normalize around .300 anyways for all pitchers.

2. I'm open to accepting that PG dominated offenses can win championships because of rules changes. Curry while ball dominant is also arguably even more effective off ball so he's a tricky situation here. When I see it start seeing PG dominated teams win rings I will concede that can be a championship formula. I just want to see start happening first.

3. Coaches can tailor their system around the players. But that requires a smart coach. And additionally you cannot separate the system part of basketball from the talent part. In baseball there is no system. Only talent.

sheesh
01-21-2016, 04:27 PM
Which still brings me back to my point. Hero Ball, generally defined as overdribbling, excessive involvement in the offense, excessive shooting, tendency for high turnovers, excessive reliance on a single player only really worked for Michael Jordan.

sheesh
01-21-2016, 04:29 PM
I remember during LeBron's first championship run in the Finals when he was letting Chalmer's run the offense and then getting into the post and utterly dominating the Thunder that it was over.

I was thinking there's just no way the Thunder are going to be able to handle this right now. They were completely out of their depth when LeBron started dominating the game off ball. It opened up the entire playbook.