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Lionel20
01-20-2016, 12:50 AM
I have a lot more to say on this, but I'll try to keep it short in the OP.

Yes, the Golden State Warriors are a better team than the Cavs, but why is it generally accepted that Steph Curry is better than LeBron James?

For the sake of time, I'm just zeroing in on the 40 or so GP this season, a season most consider Steph Curry's finest so far, and just typical for LeBron.

Curry eFG% = 63.4 (3rd among qualifiers)
LeBron eFG% = 53.2

Curry easily the better shooter.

Sidenote: 60% of LeBron's FG are unassisted, compared to only 53% Curry's.


LeBron TOV Ratio (per 100 possessions) = 1.06
Curry TOV Ratio (per 100 possessions) = 1.07

Curry AST Ratio (AST per 100 possessions) = 19.9
LeBron AST Ratio (AST per 100 possessions) = 19.1

LeBron averages 12.6 potential
Curry averages 11.9



Curry's teammates have proved more efficient in scoring the basketball.



LeBron contested Rebounds = 2.0
Overall Rebounds per 100 possessions = 10.6

Curry contested Rebounds = 1.0
Overall Rebounds per 100 possessions = 7.5

LeBron Blk% = 1.6
LeBron Stl% = 2.0

Curry Blk% = 0.3
Curry Stl% = 3.0


Another SportsVU defensive stat.

When LeBron guards a player, on average that player shoots .327 from the field according to NBA.com (1st in the NBA among qualifiers 20+ games, 20+ mins.)

LeBrons competition shoots an average .445 against everyone else, that's a "League Best" -11.8% differential.

When Curry defends, players shoot .394, while shooting .428, a differential of -3.4.


It's difficult to isolate a player from team performance, but as much as I can it appears Curry is the better shooter/scorer, both players are almost equally efficient passers, LeBron the better rebounder, and LeBron much more valuable to his team defensively.

I can't seem to understand why the majority of people I watch or talk to claim Curry as the undisputed "Best Player on the Planet"?

LeBron's actually been just as good as Curry in the clutch this season averaging about the same amount of points per minute in the clutch, LeBron shoots 46% from the field in the clutch, Curry 45%, and LeBron's turned it over slightly less too.

Procision
01-20-2016, 01:00 AM
LBJ also guards the worst offensive player on the other team alot just like Curry. Sure hes better on defense but Curry is alot better on offense.

Curry is unguardable with a pick and makes that GSW offense what it is.

Hawkeye15
01-20-2016, 01:46 AM
cause Curry is a machine.

LOb0
01-20-2016, 02:17 AM
Bron has completely lost his jumper. I'm not sure if the mental block he's had with it has finally taken over or what but relying on drive drive drive when they play him for the drive has made the game much harder for him. He's still putting up numbers but its not at LeBron peak level.

Curry is better.

BKLYNpigeon
01-20-2016, 02:18 AM
He's alright, but he aint real.

BKLYNpigeon
01-20-2016, 02:19 AM
Do we really need to make another Curry circle jerk thread?

tredigs
01-20-2016, 02:19 AM
I have a lot more to say on this, but I'll try to keep it short in the OP.

Yes, the Golden State Warriors are a better team than the Cavs, but why is it generally accepted that Steph Curry is better than LeBron James?

For the sake of time, I'm just zeroing in on the 40 or so GP this season, a season most consider Steph Curry's finest so far, and just typical for LeBron.

Curry eFG% = 63.4 (3rd among qualifiers)
LeBron eFG% = 53.2

Curry easily the better shooter.

Sidenote: 60% of LeBron's FG are unassisted, compared to only 53% Curry's.


LeBron TOV Ratio (per 100 possessions) = 1.06
Curry TOV Ratio (per 100 possessions) = 1.07

Curry AST Ratio (AST per 100 possessions) = 19.9
LeBron AST Ratio (AST per 100 possessions) = 19.1

LeBron averages 12.6 potential
Curry averages 11.9



Curry's teammates have proved more efficient in scoring the basketball.



LeBron contested Rebounds = 2.0
Overall Rebounds per 100 possessions = 10.6

Curry contested Rebounds = 1.0
Overall Rebounds per 100 possessions = 7.5

LeBron Blk% = 1.6
LeBron Stl% = 2.0

Curry Blk% = 0.3
Curry Stl% = 3.0


Another SportsVU defensive stat.

When LeBron guards a player, on average that player shoots .327 from the field according to NBA.com (1st in the NBA among qualifiers 20+ games, 20+ mins.)

LeBrons competition shoots an average .445 against everyone else, that's a "League Best" -11.8% differential.

When Curry defends, players shoot .394, while shooting .428, a differential of -3.4.


It's difficult to isolate a player from team performance, but as much as I can it appears Curry is the better shooter/scorer, both players are almost equally efficient passers, LeBron the better rebounder, and LeBron much more valuable to his team defensively.

I can't seem to understand why the majority of people I watch or talk to claim Curry as the undisputed "Best Player on the Planet"?

LeBron's actually been just as good as Curry in the clutch this season averaging about the same amount of points per minute in the clutch, LeBron shoots 46% from the field in the clutch, Curry 45%, and LeBron's turned it over slightly less too.

Since you're looking into SportsVu stats for passing, you should have taken it a step further to "Assists Adjusted". That's a combination of standard assists, assists that lead to FT's, and Secondary Assists (hockey assists). Curry leads the league in secondary assists and is 6th overall in assists adjusted. Lebron's 18th (with 2 extra minutes per game). Curry's averaging >30/5/5 on >50/45/90 (68% TS) on the highest volume of 3's ever taken.

He leads the league (and Bron...) in WS, WS/48, PER, VORP, BPM, PPG and TS%. The PER and WS/48 currently both rank #1 in NBA history and the TS% would be the highest in NBA history for a scoring champ and/or anyone putting up 30+ PPG.

He also just angered Lebron before a game in Cleveland last night with some random champagne comment - resulting in Lebron saying "he'd have a response" for that - and proceeded to head the Warriors in delivering Lebron with the most lopsided home loss of his NBA career. I know you're a numbers guy so that's what I focused on, but those types of games definitely matter in debates like this. Curry made a statement last night.

Not sure there's anything else to say.

LOb0
01-20-2016, 02:21 AM
Assists Adjusted needs to be a more recognized stat.

Gander13SM
01-20-2016, 02:51 AM
Since you're looking into SportsVu stats for passing, you should have taken it a step further to "Assists Adjusted". That's a combination of standard assists, assists that lead to FT's, and Secondary Assists (hockey assists). Curry leads the league in secondary assists and is 6th overall in assists adjusted. Lebron's 18th (with 2 extra minutes per game). Curry's averaging >30/5/5 on >50/45/90 (68% TS) on the highest volume of 3's ever taken.

He leads the league (and Bron...) in WS, WS/48, PER, VORP, BPM, PPG and TS%. The PER and WS/48 currently both rank #1 in NBA history and the TS% would be the highest in NBA history for a scoring champ and/or anyone putting up 30+ PPG.

He also just angered Lebron before a game in Cleveland last night with some random champagne comment - resulting in Lebron saying "he'd have a response" for that - and proceeded to head the Warriors in delivering Lebron with the most lopsided home loss of his NBA career. I know you're a numbers guy so that's what I focused on, but those types of games definitely matter in debates like this. Curry made a statement last night.

Not sure there's anything else to say.

That's just insane. His volume/ppg in general has increased so much I expected a slight knock in efficiency...and yet the efficiency has gone up as well. Mad.

FWIW I had a look on Bball Ref and apparently he has the best 2pt% of any 50-40-90 member as well? (If he sustains it).

KnicksorBust
01-20-2016, 09:10 AM
I have a lot more to say on this, but I'll try to keep it short in the OP.

Yes, the Golden State Warriors are a better team than the Cavs, but why is it generally accepted that Steph Curry is better than LeBron James?

For the sake of time, I'm just zeroing in on the 40 or so GP this season, a season most consider Steph Curry's finest so far, and just typical for LeBron.

Curry eFG% = 63.4 (3rd among qualifiers)
LeBron eFG% = 53.2

Curry easily the better shooter.

Sidenote: 60% of LeBron's FG are unassisted, compared to only 53% Curry's.


LeBron TOV Ratio (per 100 possessions) = 1.06
Curry TOV Ratio (per 100 possessions) = 1.07

Curry AST Ratio (AST per 100 possessions) = 19.9
LeBron AST Ratio (AST per 100 possessions) = 19.1

LeBron averages 12.6 potential
Curry averages 11.9



Curry's teammates have proved more efficient in scoring the basketball.



LeBron contested Rebounds = 2.0
Overall Rebounds per 100 possessions = 10.6

Curry contested Rebounds = 1.0
Overall Rebounds per 100 possessions = 7.5

LeBron Blk% = 1.6
LeBron Stl% = 2.0

Curry Blk% = 0.3
Curry Stl% = 3.0


Another SportsVU defensive stat.

When LeBron guards a player, on average that player shoots .327 from the field according to NBA.com (1st in the NBA among qualifiers 20+ games, 20+ mins.)

LeBrons competition shoots an average .445 against everyone else, that's a "League Best" -11.8% differential.

When Curry defends, players shoot .394, while shooting .428, a differential of -3.4.


It's difficult to isolate a player from team performance, but as much as I can it appears Curry is the better shooter/scorer, both players are almost equally efficient passers, LeBron the better rebounder, and LeBron much more valuable to his team defensively.

I can't seem to understand why the majority of people I watch or talk to claim Curry as the undisputed "Best Player on the Planet"?

LeBron's actually been just as good as Curry in the clutch this season averaging about the same amount of points per minute in the clutch, LeBron shoots 46% from the field in the clutch, Curry 45%, and LeBron's turned it over slightly less too.

I completely disagree with your whole premise that if LeBron is better at more things that means he is better overall and really that's all you have. I love that Curry's shooting efficiency and how it crushes LeBron is basically given the same level of value as rebounding.

IndyRealist
01-20-2016, 09:32 AM
I think this vastly underestimates the difference between 53% and 63% eFG, and then doing it at the usage he is....

valade16
01-20-2016, 10:13 AM
LeBron's actually been just as good as Curry in the clutch this season averaging about the same amount of points per minute in the clutch, LeBron shoots 46% from the field in the clutch, Curry 45%, and LeBron's turned it over slightly less too.

I also want to point out Curry's been in the clutch like 4 times this season because the Warriors are usually blowing people out by the 4th.

Corey
01-20-2016, 11:03 AM
Younger, crazy shooting numbers with a super high usage, best team in the NBA, coming off MVP year, heading towards another.

Its not really that hard to see why people think he's the best.

Mostly, it's because he just is.

Tony_Starks
01-20-2016, 11:15 AM
Curry has a legit argument to be the first MVP to ever win most improved player.

Please stop.

Scoots
01-20-2016, 11:29 AM
Do we really need to make another Curry circle jerk thread?

I think it was intended to be an anti-Curry thread.

DanG
01-20-2016, 12:02 PM
Seriously what does one player have to do to dethrone LeBron James as the best player? If Curry is not doing it right now then I don't think it's even possible.

Curry is putting up one of the greatest offensive seasons of all-time and he doesn't need a superstar like Dwyane Wade alongside him to put up those efficiency numbers. Heck I can make a case Curry's season right now is better than any of LeBron's.

It's so funny to me all the defenders of LeBron used to bring up TS%, PER, WS/48 when making a case for him and now when Curry is absolutely killing it in those categories you mention some clutch and defensive stats that nobody has ever cared about. Open your eyes LeBron James isn't a player to bring up when it comes to clutchness. He is okay, but I believe what I see with my eyes.

Also, LeBron isn't that great on the defensive end. He isn't even in the discussion for DPOY and it's not like Steph can't play D at all. I'd say LeBron is a good defender, better than most, but that doesn't close they gap they have on offense.

KnicksorBust
01-20-2016, 12:41 PM
I think this vastly underestimates the difference between 53% and 63% eFG, and then doing it at the usage he is....

Exactly... the OP actually says "it appears Curry is the better shooter/scorer, both players are almost equally efficient passers, LeBron the better rebounder, and LeBron much more valuable to his team defensively."

The way I read that makes it sound almost as if LeBron's rebounding skills are equally valuable to Curry being a better shooter/scorer. It's crazy.

To me it reminds me of people in the past trying to argue Kobe or Carmelo were better scorers than LeBron because they could score in more ways (post/mid-range/3pt/etc)

KG2TB
01-20-2016, 12:59 PM
Why is it a given?

Because he is. We could close the thread now.

Lionel20
01-20-2016, 03:43 PM
Since you're looking into SportsVu stats for passing, you should have taken it a step further to "Assists Adjusted". That's a combination of standard assists, assists that lead to FT's, and Secondary Assists (hockey assists). Curry leads the league in secondary assists and is 6th overall in assists adjusted. Lebron's 18th (with 2 extra minutes per game). Curry's averaging >30/5/5 on >50/45/90 (68% TS) on the highest volume of 3's ever taken.

He leads the league (and Bron...) in WS, WS/48, PER, VORP, BPM, PPG and TS%. The PER and WS/48 currently both rank #1 in NBA history and the TS% would be the highest in NBA history for a scoring champ and/or anyone putting up 30+ PPG.

He also just angered Lebron before a game in Cleveland last night with some random champagne comment - resulting in Lebron saying "he'd have a response" for that - and proceeded to head the Warriors in delivering Lebron with the most lopsided home loss of his NBA career. I know you're a numbers guy so that's what I focused on, but those types of games definitely matter in debates like this. Curry made a statement last night.

Not sure there's anything else to say.

The problem with many of those advanced metrics that you've cited, especially PER, is that they devalue defense in my opinion. Defensive performance is more difficult to value.

Players are shooting 12% less from the field when LeBron James guards them, that's easily the best in the NBA this season.

Curry is the better offensive player, but LeBron is arguably a top 5 offensive and defensive player in the NBA. And as evidenced by some of the comments in this thread, Curry is considered the best player in the world, and it's near unanimous.

I think if at the beginning of the season, you take LeBron off Cleveland, the Cavs don't even make the playoffs in the East. In the West, a more difficult Conference, without Curry I think the Warriors still land a high to mid seed. Most people don't realize 1. How good the rest of the Warriors are 2. How valuable LeBron is to the Cavs

And it's funny to me that my position is so unpopular. Cats act like it's not even a discussion, let alone LeBron still being the best player in the world.

Lionel20
01-20-2016, 03:48 PM
Seriously what does one player have to do to dethrone LeBron James as the best player? If Curry is not doing it right now then I don't think it's even possible.

Curry is putting up one of the greatest offensive seasons of all-time and he doesn't need a superstar like Dwyane Wade alongside him to put up those efficiency numbers. Heck I can make a case Curry's season right now is better than any of LeBron's.

It's so funny to me all the defenders of LeBron used to bring up TS%, PER, WS/48 when making a case for him and now when Curry is absolutely killing it in those categories you mention some clutch and defensive stats that nobody has ever cared about. Open your eyes LeBron James isn't a player to bring up when it comes to clutchness. He is okay, but I believe what I see with my eyes.

Also, LeBron isn't that great on the defensive end. He isn't even in the discussion for DPOY and it's not like Steph can't play D at all. I'd say LeBron is a good defender, better than most, but that doesn't close they gap they have on offense.

hmm

Are you saying that the 2010 - 2014 (pick a year) Miami Heat had a better supporting cast than the 2014-2016 Warriors?

How'd you come to that conclusion?

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-20-2016, 03:55 PM
Tyreke > Curry

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-20-2016, 03:55 PM
Lol I can't even keep a straight face after that last post

KnicksorBust
01-20-2016, 04:02 PM
The problem with many of those advanced metrics that you've cited, especially PER, is that they devalue defense in my opinion. Defensive performance is more difficult to value.

Players are shooting 12% less from the field when LeBron James guards them, that's easily the best in the NBA this season.

Curry is the better offensive player, but LeBron is arguably a top 5 offensive and defensive player in the NBA. And as evidenced by some of the comments in this thread, Curry is considered the best player in the world, and it's near unanimous.

I think if at the beginning of the season, you take LeBron off Cleveland, the Cavs don't even make the playoffs in the East. In the West, a more difficult Conference, without Curry I think the Warriors still land a high to mid seed. Most people don't realize 1. How good the rest of the Warriors are 2. How valuable LeBron is to the Cavs

And it's funny to me that my position is so unpopular. Cats act like it's not even a discussion, let alone LeBron still being the best player in the world.

The Cavs with Love and Kyrie don't make the playoffs? Not sure I buy that.

Also the difference between the Warriors being a mid-seed without Curry and making them potentially the greatest team in NBA History with Curry is far more significant than getting the Cavs into the playoffs. That is no contest. Using your logic it is impossible for the best player on the league to play on a good team and that is a complete departure from logic.

TrueFan420
01-20-2016, 09:04 PM
Curry has a legit argument to be the first MVP to ever win most improved player.

Please stop.
That would freaking be epic.

YOUGOTAGETUP
01-20-2016, 10:23 PM
Some people go a little crazy on the advanced stats and everything like that.

I actually look at defense and how a player sets up his team to play at a high level. Many times the WS stat matches. So everyonce in a while I'll look at the WS but first I look at the games and watch the games to decide whos good and who's not.

The reason people don't jump all over the Curry bandwagon is because they feel he won't last. They feel he's a flash in the pan and it will just last 3-4 years this being about the 3rd year of that. I actually feel this way too. But I'm going to give him his due right now. Right now he's better than lebron. The Best Player is Draymond Green. Draymond averages about 16 a game which is a lot. I know it's not 25ppg and that's what all the kids fall in love with but 16 ppg is still a ton and is doing it in a winning way. Plus he's leading his team in Rebounds and Assists. I've only seen that done about 5 times in NBA history.
Because of that I think either Draymond Green or Kawhi Leonard are the best players overall in the NBA, but Curry is right there at 3 or 4 with Durant. It's not all about stats so don't get mad. There are a lot of things that don't even show up on stat sheets that win games. Just one example setting a great screen, Or another example throwing a great outlet pass that triggers the break each time. Or benig about to lock down the best scorers in the NBA.

tredigs
01-20-2016, 11:06 PM
Some people go a little crazy on the advanced stats and everything like that.

I actually look at defense and how a player sets up his team to play at a high level. Many times the WS stat matches. So everyonce in a while I'll look at the WS but first I look at the games and watch the games to decide whos good and who's not.

The reason people don't jump all over the Curry bandwagon is because they feel he won't last. They feel he's a flash in the pan and it will just last 3-4 years this being about the 3rd year of that. I actually feel this way too. But I'm going to give him his due right now. Right now he's better than lebron. The Best Player is Draymond Green. Draymond averages about 16 a game which is a lot. I know it's not 25ppg and that's what all the kids fall in love with but 16 ppg is still a ton and is doing it in a winning way. Plus he's leading his team in Rebounds and Assists. I've only seen that done about 5 times in NBA history.
Because of that I think either Draymond Green or Kawhi Leonard are the best players overall in the NBA, but Curry is right there at 3 or 4 with Durant. It's not all about stats so don't get mad. There are a lot of things that don't even show up on stat sheets that win games. Just one example setting a great screen, Or another example throwing a great outlet pass that triggers the break each time. Or benig about to lock down the best scorers in the NBA.

You have to understand that the major reason why he leads the team in assists is because his man will generally leave him wide open in favor of double teaming Curry 35 feet away from the basket, causing a 4-3 where he either finds himself an open shot, an open 3pt shooter on the wing, or an open Bogut/Ezeli for the lob dunk. For someone who just said you "can't just look at stats", you reek of a person who does not watch the Warriors play.

bucketss
01-20-2016, 11:16 PM
Bron has completely lost his jumper. I'm not sure if the mental block he's had with it has finally taken over or what but relying on drive drive drive when they play him for the drive has made the game much harder for him. He's still putting up numbers but its not at LeBron peak level.

Curry is better.

he seems to have found it this month, 41% from behind the arc, it was probably a mental block considering his % made a huge change after he saw a graphic on twitter stating he was the worst shooter in the league.

IndyRealist
01-20-2016, 11:27 PM
The problem with many of those advanced metrics that you've cited, especially PER, is that they devalue defense in my opinion. Defensive performance is more difficult to value.

Players are shooting 12% less from the field when LeBron James guards them, that's easily the best in the NBA this season.

Curry is the better offensive player, but LeBron is arguably a top 5 offensive and defensive player in the NBA. And as evidenced by some of the comments in this thread, Curry is considered the best player in the world, and it's near unanimous.

I think if at the beginning of the season, you take LeBron off Cleveland, the Cavs don't even make the playoffs in the East. In the West, a more difficult Conference, without Curry I think the Warriors still land a high to mid seed. Most people don't realize 1. How good the rest of the Warriors are 2. How valuable LeBron is to the Cavs

And it's funny to me that my position is so unpopular. Cats act like it's not even a discussion, let alone LeBron still being the best player in the world.
Please explain, in your opinion, why they devalue defense. Because WS, PER, and VORP are calculated completely differently.

lol, please
01-20-2016, 11:44 PM
I also want to point out Curry's been in the clutch like 4 times this season because the Warriors are usually blowing people out by the 4th.

pretty much.


Curry has a legit argument to be the first MVP to ever win most improved player.

Please stop.
This.


I think this vastly underestimates the difference between 53% and 63% eFG, and then doing it at the usage he is....

Well said.

lol, please
01-20-2016, 11:48 PM
Some people go a little crazy on the advanced stats and everything like that.

I actually look at defense and how a player sets up his team to play at a high level. Many times the WS stat matches. So everyonce in a while I'll look at the WS but first I look at the games and watch the games to decide whos good and who's not.

The reason people don't jump all over the Curry bandwagon is because they feel he won't last. They feel he's a flash in the pan and it will just last 3-4 years this being about the 3rd year of that. I actually feel this way too. But I'm going to give him his due right now. Right now he's better than lebron. The Best Player is Draymond Green. Draymond averages about 16 a game which is a lot. I know it's not 25ppg and that's what all the kids fall in love with but 16 ppg is still a ton and is doing it in a winning way. Plus he's leading his team in Rebounds and Assists. I've only seen that done about 5 times in NBA history.
Because of that I think either Draymond Green or Kawhi Leonard are the best players overall in the NBA, but Curry is right there at 3 or 4 with Durant. It's not all about stats so don't get mad. There are a lot of things that don't even show up on stat sheets that win games. Just one example setting a great screen, Or another example throwing a great outlet pass that triggers the break each time. Or benig about to lock down the best scorers in the NBA.

I stopped reading two sentences after the first bold. You make it sound like there is such as thing as too much analysis using advanced metrics. There isn't.

2nd bold: Really? Who are these people? Other than yourself, I haven't heard anything of the sort.

Scoots
01-21-2016, 12:11 AM
I stopped reading two sentences after the first bold. You make it sound like there is such as thing as too much analysis using advanced metrics. There isn't.

2nd bold: Really? Who are these people? Other than yourself, I haven't heard anything of the sort.

If you allow analytics to make your decision without watching the games you are missing a huge amount of information.

There were a LOT of people, probably you included, expressing concern for his durability when it seemed he could barely walk on the floor without hurting his ankle.

YOUGOTAGETUP
01-21-2016, 12:15 AM
You have to understand that the major reason why he leads the team in assists is because his man will generally leave him wide open in favor of double teaming Curry 35 feet away from the basket, causing a 4-3 where he either finds himself an open shot, an open 3pt shooter on the wing, or an open Bogut/Ezeli for the lob dunk. For someone who just said you "can't just look at stats", you reek of a person who does not watch the Warriors play.

I realize that and I watch the Warriors no need to get like that. Yes Curry is good. Did I not say he's wasn't. The problem is you don't kknow real basketball and know that Draymond is making Curry a top player, by watching his back, looking after him and the team. He also sets a nice screen. Curry was good before Green, but nothing like this and he didn't draw any doubles. He started drawing doubles when they got Green and then Curry could just play his game and not have to worry about players putting putting dirty fouls on him. This allows Curry to shoot a much better % and get up more and more shots.

I watched Curry all of his career. He wasn't like this until he had the tuffest guy in the NBA watching his back. I even watched him in college and I watched Draymond in college. Draymond was the better overall player and his team went further in the tournaments.

It's not a coincidence that as soon as they started Green they win 67 and now what 68 wins?? That's two of the best seasons in NBA history back to back and the only change from the previous seasons was one player. Draymond starting and actually getting time.

Steve Kerr already said Draymond is the leader and MVP of their team and league.

Kenny Smith also said that the other night.

Some of you need to value rebounds, assists, steals, blocks, defense and overall team play oh yeah and 16 points where he could score 20 on anyother team.

So I guess to some of you this player would not be the best in the NBA

6'8
best defensive player ever
averages
20 rebounds
15 assists
8 steals
9 blocks
and 15 points.
70% shooting

could score anytime he wants and could average 100, but likes to set up the team so they play well.

CousinsEvansDUO
01-21-2016, 12:23 AM
Tyreke Evans WAS better than steph curry. He won rookie of the year. Steph only got better because of getting lucky with health and tyreke got unlucky with health. It's like saying Kobe is better than tMac. No tMac was WAY more dominant when he played and in primes. Same for tyreke MVP Evans

tredigs
01-21-2016, 12:35 AM
This guy just said A) Curry did not draw doubles before Draymond Green and B) That Curry now draws doubles because of Draymond Green... in an attempt to prove that Draymond Green is the leagues MVP and the Warriors best player.

I'm just going to venture out here and say that you did not ace "deductive reasoning" on your ACT's.

YOUGOTAGETUP
01-21-2016, 12:56 AM
This guy just said A) Curry did not draw doubles before Draymond Green and B) That Curry now draws doubles because of Draymond Green... in an attempt to prove that Draymond Green is the leagues MVP and the Warriors best player.

I'm just going to venture out here and say that you did not ace "deductive reasoning" on your ACT's.

Ok, Why did Kenny Smith a basketball expert and certainly knows more than you say that Draymond is the MVP

Why also did Jeff Van Gundy tonight name his top five in order as
Draymond Green
Kawhi Leonard
Curry
Durant
Westbrook

Do you think you know more about the game than Jeff Van Gundy, Steve Kerr and Kenny Smith?


So I guess you think Curry can win 82 games by himself 1 on 5.

There's no talking to people like you, with you it's just who averages the mos points and that's all that matters. It's a very simplistic way of looking at things.

YOUGOTAGETUP
01-21-2016, 12:58 AM
Green makes assist when curry isn't even there. So I'm calling BS.

tredigs
01-21-2016, 01:04 AM
You remind me of "I Know Hoops" in relation to Lebron when I used to have to defend him relentlessly on here in his Cleveland days, and posters of that ilk. I spent countless upon countless posts over the past 2 seasons telling people just how integral and dynamic Draymond Green's game was; that he's a borderline top 10 NBA talent and that he was certainly the Warriors 2nd most important piece behind Curry (over Klay). This was all scoffed at. Now that I have to push the breaks on those who clearly don't watch him day in/day out like yourself, I'm "just not getting it" and "brainwashed by PPG".

I'll put it bluntly. You don't know what the **** you're talking about, and you're talking to somebody who does.

YOUGOTAGETUP
01-21-2016, 01:22 AM
You remind me of "I Know Hoops" in relation to Lebron when I used to have to defend him relentlessly on here in his Cleveland days, and posters of that ilk. I spent countless upon countless posts over the past 2 seasons telling people just how integral and dynamic Draymond Green's game was; that he's a borderline top 10 NBA talent and that he was certainly the Warriors 2nd most important piece behind Curry (over Klay). This was all scoffed at. Now that I have to push the breaks on those who clearly don't watch him day in/day out like yourself, I'm "just not getting it" and "brainwashed by PPG".

I'll put it bluntly. You don't know what the **** you're talking about, and you're talking to somebody who does.

You don't know as much basketball as me, trust me dude. I'll break you.

I take Green you take Curry. I've got the player that can do everything great, you have a player that does 1 things well.

Also Green would shutdown your best player

you don't know that game.

16/10/8/1.5/1.5 and good %

First PF ever to average 8 dimes.

Averaged 17/12/11/3/1 in the 3 games Curry missed. (one of the games curry only played about 10min)

17/12/11 and all world defense and knows how to win. Say that to yourself.

Can you say GOAT. If someone averaged that for a season they would be considered on the level of Michael Jordan. I know it's 3 games, but your the one that lied and said he can't play.


8 Triple Doubles this season on pace for 16 triple doubles.

Plus he's the main reason the Warriors are leading the NBA in assist.
He's a PF that averages 8 assist and is 6th in the NBA in assist. AND HE's still getting better every day.

Corey
01-21-2016, 01:26 AM
Tyreke Evans WAS better than steph curry. He won rookie of the year. Steph only got better because of getting lucky with health and tyreke got unlucky with health. It's like saying Kobe is better than tMac. No tMac was WAY more dominant when he played and in primes. Same for tyreke MVP Evans

Getting lucky with health?

Do you forget when everyone deemed Steph with glass ankles because of all the time he missed?

Give it a rest, homer. Tyreke is a middle of the road player who wont be remembered by anyone but fans like yourself.

YOUGOTAGETUP
01-21-2016, 01:28 AM
Draymond is the reason they are on pace to win almost 70 games.

With any other player in the NBA they would be only on pace for 55 wins.

tredigs
01-21-2016, 01:30 AM
I'm actually embarrassed that I entertained/responded to his 1st post. Moving on.

JJ_JKidd
01-21-2016, 01:33 AM
I have a lot more to say on this, but I'll try to keep it short in the OP.

Yes, the Golden State Warriors are a better team than the Cavs, but why is it generally accepted that Steph Curry is better than LeBron James?

For the sake of time, I'm just zeroing in on the 40 or so GP this season, a season most consider Steph Curry's finest so far, and just typical for LeBron.

Curry eFG% = 63.4 (3rd among qualifiers)
LeBron eFG% = 53.2

Curry easily the better shooter.

Sidenote: 60% of LeBron's FG are unassisted, compared to only 53% Curry's.


LeBron TOV Ratio (per 100 possessions) = 1.06
Curry TOV Ratio (per 100 possessions) = 1.07

Curry AST Ratio (AST per 100 possessions) = 19.9
LeBron AST Ratio (AST per 100 possessions) = 19.1

LeBron averages 12.6 potential
Curry averages 11.9



Curry's teammates have proved more efficient in scoring the basketball.



LeBron contested Rebounds = 2.0
Overall Rebounds per 100 possessions = 10.6

Curry contested Rebounds = 1.0
Overall Rebounds per 100 possessions = 7.5

LeBron Blk% = 1.6
LeBron Stl% = 2.0

Curry Blk% = 0.3
Curry Stl% = 3.0


Another SportsVU defensive stat.

When LeBron guards a player, on average that player shoots .327 from the field according to NBA.com (1st in the NBA among qualifiers 20+ games, 20+ mins.)

LeBrons competition shoots an average .445 against everyone else, that's a "League Best" -11.8% differential.

When Curry defends, players shoot .394, while shooting .428, a differential of -3.4.


It's difficult to isolate a player from team performance, but as much as I can it appears Curry is the better shooter/scorer, both players are almost equally efficient passers, LeBron the better rebounder, and LeBron much more valuable to his team defensively.

I can't seem to understand why the majority of people I watch or talk to claim Curry as the undisputed "Best Player on the Planet"?

LeBron's actually been just as good as Curry in the clutch this season averaging about the same amount of points per minute in the clutch, LeBron shoots 46% from the field in the clutch, Curry 45%, and LeBron's turned it over slightly less too.

Because **** media ******** him now after they have abused Lebron

YOUGOTAGETUP
01-21-2016, 01:39 AM
"You have to understand that the major reason why he leads the team in assists is because his man will generally leave him wide open in favor of double teaming Curry 35 feet away from the basket, causing a 4-3 where he either finds himself an open shot, an open 3pt shooter on the wing, or an open Bogut/Ezeli for the lob dunk. For someone who just said you "can't just look at stats", you reek of a person who does not watch the Warriors play."

You better move on. Cause you realized your lying and making up stuff. Trying to say Draymond can't get assist without Curry. Is that why Draymond had a 29pts 17rebs 14ast 4stl game against Denver. curry played 10 minutes and was ineffective.

People go look up Draymonds stats. He might get 20 Triple Doubles this season.

Then when Draymond missed a game Denver killed the Warriors and out rebounded them.

Nikeman
01-21-2016, 01:54 AM
I am of the minority, but I still think LeBron is head and shoulders the best player in this league, but there is a caveat. Its only when LeBron tries. At this point, I do not think LeBron cares about regular season accolades, he wants a ring for Cleveland.

I still remember the 2015 NBA Finals, LeBron's performance was historic, and at age 22, the greatest thing I've ever seen. He averaged a damn near triple double scoring 35 a game. He led a Cavs team to two wins against GS that should have gotten swept out of the water. Just the fact he collected finals MVP votes in a losing effort shows his greatness. Curry did not get a single vote for Finals MVP.

LeBron is just coasting in the regular season while Curry is putting up all world numbers, and thats why everyone is putting him as the best in the NBA, but when LeBron wants to be, he is far and away the best player in the game. When he lets his team down in the playoffs is when I will give it to Cur

BKLYNpigeon
01-21-2016, 02:00 AM
"You have to understand that the major reason why he leads the team in assists is because his man will generally leave him wide open in favor of double teaming Curry 35 feet away from the basket, causing a 4-3 where he either finds himself an open shot, an open 3pt shooter on the wing, or an open Bogut/Ezeli for the lob dunk. For someone who just said you "can't just look at stats", you reek of a person who does not watch the Warriors play."

You better move on. Cause you realized your lying and making up stuff. Trying to say Draymond can't get assist without Curry. Is that why Draymond had a 29pts 17rebs 14ast 4stl game against Denver. curry played 10 minutes and was ineffective.

People go look up Draymonds stats. He might get 20 Triple Doubles this season.

Then when Draymond missed a game Denver killed the Warriors and out rebounded them.


Its not just Draymond. Its the system and skill level that make them all great.

Klay Thompson Missed 2 games and that offense had trouble scoring and floor spacing.

When Curry missed a game the Warriors got killed by the Mavs.

BKLYNpigeon
01-21-2016, 02:01 AM
I am of the minority, but I still think LeBron is head and shoulders the best player in this league, but there is a caveat. Its only when LeBron tries. At this point, I do not think LeBron cares about regular season accolades, he wants a ring for Cleveland.

I still remember the 2015 NBA Finals, LeBron's performance was historic, and at age 22, the greatest thing I've ever seen. He averaged a damn near triple double scoring 35 a game. He led a Cavs team to two wins against GS that should have gotten swept out of the water. Just the fact he collected finals MVP votes in a losing effort shows his greatness. Curry did not get a single vote for Finals MVP.

LeBron is just coasting in the regular season while Curry is putting up all world numbers, and thats why everyone is putting him as the best in the NBA, but when LeBron wants to be, he is far and away the best player in the game. When he lets his team down in the playoffs is when I will give it to Cur


Too bad its a team game.

tredigs
01-21-2016, 02:22 AM
I am of the minority, but I still think LeBron is head and shoulders the best player in this league, but there is a caveat. Its only when LeBron tries. At this point, I do not think LeBron cares about regular season accolades, he wants a ring for Cleveland.

I still remember the 2015 NBA Finals, LeBron's performance was historic, and at age 22, the greatest thing I've ever seen. He averaged a damn near triple double scoring 35 a game. He led a Cavs team to two wins against GS that should have gotten swept out of the water. Just the fact he collected finals MVP votes in a losing effort shows his greatness. Curry did not get a single vote for Finals MVP.

LeBron is just coasting in the regular season while Curry is putting up all world numbers, and thats why everyone is putting him as the best in the NBA, but when LeBron wants to be, he is far and away the best player in the game. When he lets his team down in the playoffs is when I will give it to Cur
He averaged 46 MPG and shot 39% from the field and 69% from the line while missing more shots than anybody in NBA Finals history in just 6 games of action. All while playing absolutely apathetic and/or pathetic defense more often than not. #Never Forget.

If that's the most impressive basketball you've ever seen, I pity 22 year olds.

CousinsEvansDUO
01-21-2016, 03:01 AM
No question about it LEBRON is better than curry. All curry needs is a hit during the playoffs and he's out, send in the goons like the Pistons bad Boys would and Cleveland has a championship. What are the Warriors going to do to LEBRON, cover him up with band aids over tiny scrapes and dust him off?

lol, please
01-21-2016, 06:12 AM
He averaged 46 MPG and shot 39% from the field and 69% from the line while missing more shots than anybody in NBA Finals history in just 6 games of action. All while playing absolutely apathetic and/or pathetic defense more often than not. #Never Forget.

If that's the most impressive basketball you've ever seen, I pity 22 year olds.
:clap:

Alayla
01-21-2016, 11:39 AM
Look if this was last year i would argee with you that the curry freight train (cant even call it a bandwagon at this point) was moving way to fast and LBJ was not being given his credit (this coming from someone who was excited about curry since he was drafted and felt he would be the best shooter of all time from day 1.)
But anyone arguing curry being anything less than the best player in the NBA at this stage is kidding themselves Lebron has gotten noticeably worse and Curry has gotten exponentially better (somehow).

There are only 2 negative comments i can make on curry right now and one isn't even his fault its just the structure of his team. Ideally curry should be a 2 offensively i've always said this and stand by it maybe this is late 90's early 2000's era basketball talking but you don't play someone that talented off ball and that great of a shooter at the 1 it just isn't making the most of his talents and draws unneeded attention to him.

I also wish he was a better defender but its not like his defense is detrimental to his team right now it would just be really nice if he was good at it.
Outside of that no one should be questioning anything about Curry hes about as good as its possible to get.

Tony_Starks
01-21-2016, 11:45 AM
I am of the minority, but I still think LeBron is head and shoulders the best player in this league, but there is a caveat. Its only when LeBron tries. At this point, I do not think LeBron cares about regular season accolades, he wants a ring for Cleveland.

I still remember the 2015 NBA Finals, LeBron's performance was historic, and at age 22, the greatest thing I've ever seen. He averaged a damn near triple double scoring 35 a game. He led a Cavs team to two wins against GS that should have gotten swept out of the water. Just the fact he collected finals MVP votes in a losing effort shows his greatness. Curry did not get a single vote for Finals MVP.

LeBron is just coasting in the regular season while Curry is putting up all world numbers, and thats why everyone is putting him as the best in the NBA, but when LeBron wants to be, he is far and away the best player in the game. When he lets his team down in the playoffs is when I will give it to Cur
He averaged 46 MPG and shot 39% from the field and 69% from the line while missing more shots than anybody in NBA Finals history in just 6 games of action. All while playing absolutely apathetic and/or pathetic defense more often than not. #Never Forget.

If that's the most impressive basketball you've ever seen, I pity 22 year olds.


Post of the year.

72 Wins
01-21-2016, 12:07 PM
Post of the year.


:laugh::laugh::laugh::laugh:

SAVAGE.

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-21-2016, 01:03 PM
Lol at Green being better than Curry

Scoots
01-21-2016, 01:44 PM
Curry was good before Green, but nothing like this and he didn't draw any doubles.

I watched Curry all of his career. He wasn't like this.

It's not a coincidence that as soon as they started Green they win 67 and now what 68 wins?? That's two of the best seasons in NBA history back to back and the only change from the previous seasons was one player. Draymond starting and actually getting time.

Bring up the youtube videos of Curry in his last tournament ... he was like this ... it's just now more of the same.

Sure, the only change was one player ... oh and the head coach, a total offensive scheme change, Ron Adams one of the best defensive coaches in the NBA, Alvin Gentry one of the best offensive coaches in the NBA, Shaun Livingston, Andre Iguodala taking over running the bench, Bogut being the healthiest he'd been in 5 years, Ezeli getting healthy after missing a season, Leandro Barbosa, Mo Speights being in the best shape of his career and actually being engaged, the ongoing development of young players Curry, Thompson, and Green ... but NONE of that happened, it was all letting Green start.

By the way ... back in his rookie season Dray was my favorite Warrior because I love his game ... but don't act like he's the one making the Warriors win like this. It all starts with Curry ... it's just that Dray's at the wheel and he's got a lead foot.

Scoots
01-21-2016, 01:47 PM
Tyreke Evans WAS better than steph curry. He won rookie of the year. Steph only got better because of getting lucky with health and tyreke got unlucky with health. It's like saying Kobe is better than tMac. No tMac was WAY more dominant when he played and in primes. Same for tyreke MVP Evans

Curry was better as a rookie and should have that award ... but it was close. After that it was never close again. Curry got better and Reke got worse.

IndyRealist
01-21-2016, 02:04 PM
If you allow analytics to make your decision without watching the games you are missing a huge amount of information.


Did i miss where someone said that analytics should be the only thing you look at?

valade16
01-21-2016, 02:07 PM
Curry was better as a rookie and should have that award ... but it was close. After that it was never close again. Curry got better and Reke got worse.

Whether Curry or Tyreke was better as a rookie, the insinuation that the primary difference from then on was Curry being healthy and Tyreke being injured is absurd. Curry got exponentially better at every phase of the game. Tyreke didn't really learn how to shoot a 3 until this season, and hasn't really gotten much better.

On the list of reasons why Curry became better than Tyreke, injuries is near the bottom of the list.

Nikeman
01-21-2016, 04:53 PM
He averaged 46 MPG and shot 39% from the field and 69% from the line while missing more shots than anybody in NBA Finals history in just 6 games of action. All while playing absolutely apathetic and/or pathetic defense more often than not. #Never Forget.

If that's the most impressive basketball you've ever seen, I pity 22 year olds.

Yeah... great post.. he was the only one on the Cavs that could even create for himself. He was playing 1 vs 5 basketball. He was playing completely out of his element. LeBron is not a volume shooter, but who would you rather have shooting? JR, Mozgov, TT, Shumpert?

LeBron led team without 2 of its 3 best players against a machine and single handedly made the series competitive, and no other player in NBA history could do what LeBron did that finals series except maybe Jordan. Even though his stats weren't efficient, he was the reason the series was even competitive.

Too bad this forum is too stupid to see that respected NBA analysts gave him 3 or 4 votes for Finals MVP. This forum is hell bent upon stats like its an end all.

Also, no need to pity me bro, I am a 22 year old going to med school, but I am pretty sure if I found out about your life I could pity you :)

Oh, and another thing, LeBron to be EXCAT shot 39.8%, last time I checked, in school we were taught that rounds UP to 40%, not down to 39%, but glad your IQ is so high that you need to falsify information to prove a point. Stephen Curry shot 44%, and was not asked to do nearly anything compared to what LeBron did that finals. Curry had to guard a garbage PG in Dellavadova who had barely played until the finals.

Another thing, LeBron had a 52.7 Assist % in the NBA Finals, Stephen Curry's was at 28.5. Since you probably don't know what that means or will make something up, let me define it for you. Assist percentage is an estimate of the percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while he was on the floor.

Curry had a 17.3% turnover rate, and LeBron had a turnover rate of 8.5, so Curry turned the ball over nearly 10 more times per 100 possessions. But again Tredigs, glad you only look at shooting percentage. And even then, Curry didn't even shoot that much better on a team that wildly outmatched what LeBron had on the Cavs.

So sorry, your argument holds no merit. Funny how the Bulls fans are the ones who agree with you, because they have been playing second fiddle and have been unable to get past LBJ for the greater part of 7 seasons now.

mrblisterdundee
01-21-2016, 05:51 PM
Please; he's the best shooter in the history of the league; he's got the highest PER; he leads the league in scoring; and we've seen his team wilt without him. How much does he have to prove?

Lionel20
01-21-2016, 06:27 PM
Please explain, in your opinion, why they devalue defense. Because WS, PER, and VORP are calculated completely differently.

I'll just start with this, tell me which one of those metrics even attempt to measure "on-ball" defense?

IndyRealist
01-21-2016, 06:59 PM
I'll just start with this, tell me which one of those metrics even attempt to measure "on-ball" defense?

I was going to reply to this but everything i wrote just ended up being mean. I think everyone gets the point i was making.

Lionel20
01-21-2016, 07:15 PM
You don't know as much basketball as me, trust me dude. I'll break you.

I take Green you take Curry. I've got the player that can do everything great, you have a player that does 1 things well.

Also Green would shutdown your best player

you don't know that game.

16/10/8/1.5/1.5 and good %

First PF ever to average 8 dimes.

Averaged 17/12/11/3/1 in the 3 games Curry missed. (one of the games curry only played about 10min)

17/12/11 and all world defense and knows how to win. Say that to yourself.

Can you say GOAT. If someone averaged that for a season they would be considered on the level of Michael Jordan. I know it's 3 games, but your the one that lied and said he can't play.


8 Triple Doubles this season on pace for 16 triple doubles.

Plus he's the main reason the Warriors are leading the NBA in assist.
He's a PF that averages 8 assist and is 6th in the NBA in assist. AND HE's still getting better every day.

I don't think Green>Curry

But I think Green's contribution to the Warriors, especially this year, gets a bit overlooked. I think by now, most people respect Kawhi Leonard as one of the top players in the NBA. Well, 2015-16 Draymond is just as good overall.

I actually think that Green/Thompson make a better 2-3 option than Wade/Bosh the last three LeBron was in Miami.

I just don't think people take into consideration that LeBron has been the best offensive player and defensive player on his team virtually his entire career. It's no different this year. What other player can claim that on an elite team? Except maybe Kawhi/Jimmy Butler the last two seasons. And neither of those players have the usage rate or the level of offensive production as LeBron. LeBron still seems like the best player on the planet to me.

Lionel20
01-21-2016, 07:31 PM
I was going to reply to this but everything i wrote just ended up being mean. I think everyone gets the point i was making.

I'm going to save you the embarrassment of trying to defend PER as an sufficient way to value defense. According to PER, Dennis Rodman from Detroit through his career with the Bulls was a below average player. Average Player = 15 PER, Rodman from '87 - '98, 14.8 PER. Hey, if you believe that, then in my opinion you don't understand the value of defense in the NBA. There's a reason Rodman is a HOF, I think voted in in only his second year of eligibility. Rodman is just one example. According to PER, Bruce Bowen should've been a replacement player, D-League level.

Anyway, most valuation methods admittedly struggle with isolating individual defensive performance.

IndyRealist
01-21-2016, 07:34 PM
I'm going to save you the embarrassment of trying to defend PER as an sufficient way to value defense. According to PER, Dennis Rodman from Detroit through his career with the Bulls was a below average player. Average Player = 15 PER, Rodman from '87 - '98, 14.8 PER. Hey, if you believe that, then in my opinion you don't understand the value of defense in the NBA. There's a reason Rodman is a HOF, I think voted in in only his second year of eligibility. Rodman is just one example. According to PER, Bruce Bowen should've been a replacement player, D-League level.

Anyway, most valuation methods admittedly struggle with isolating individual defensive performance.

Everyone but one, apparently. If you think i would defend PER you don't come here enough.

Bostonjorge
01-21-2016, 08:02 PM
I don't think Green>Curry

But I think Green's contribution to the Warriors, especially this year, gets a bit overlooked. I think by now, most people respect Kawhi Leonard as one of the top players in the NBA. Well, 2015-16 Draymond is just as good overall.

I actually think that Green/Thompson make a better 2-3 option than Wade/Bosh the last three LeBron was in Miami.

I just don't think people take into consideration that LeBron has been the best offensive player and defensive player on his team virtually his entire career. It's no different this year. What other player can claim that on an elite team? Except maybe Kawhi/Jimmy Butler the last two seasons. And neither of those players have the usage rate or the level of offensive production as LeBron. LeBron still seems like the best player on the planet to me.
Green is playing amazing for sure. Green is succeeding because his top guys trust him to make the right play. Curry plays off the ball a lot and trusts green and the offense they run. Now you think green can be this successful in Cleveland? The offenses they run will have green as far away from the ball as love and bosh were. Green is the warriors offense and there is no way James will give up his offense to run greens. Green will then be even less effected then both love and bosh.

Curry playing off the ball and leading the league in scoring is what makes him the best. He always finds a way to take wide open shoots even tho he's drawing double teams.