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HandsOnTheWheel
01-18-2016, 05:23 PM
Hypothetically you can only keep one going forward.

Whiteside is just entering his prime at 26 while Bosh is almost 32 and will be getting roughly 24+ mill. per till 2019 when he will be 35, earning 26.3 mill. in that last year.

We should trade Bosh at the deadline IMO for MUCH needed cap space. He's only going to decline in the coming years. Thoughts?

HandsOnTheWheel
01-18-2016, 05:35 PM
Also, would having Whiteside over Bosh make attracting Durant easier than the latter?

Going forward if we sign Durant and somehow retain Whiteside and Wade.

Dragic / Dragic
Wade / Wade
Winslow / Winslow
Durant / Durant
Whiteside / Bosh

WaDe03
01-18-2016, 05:38 PM
A trade is going to have to be made. Wade and Bosh are untouchable, outside of that I think they'll look at all their options and see what kind of interest everyone but those 2 get. I would only be surprised to see one of those two traded. Dragic Whiteside Deng and Winslow are our best tradeable assets and at this point Birdman and McInjured are just filler.

WaDe03
01-18-2016, 05:40 PM
Also, would having Whiteside over Bosh make attracting Durant easier than the latter?

Going forward if we sign Durant and somehow retain Whiteside and Wade.

Dragic / Dragic
Wade / Wade
Winslow / Winslow
Durant / Durant
Whiteside / Bosh

No. If they went small the lineup would more than likely be

Dragic
Wade
Winslow
Durant
Bosh

I think if we did get him the lineup we would go with would be

Dragic
Wade
Durant
Bosh
Whiteside

HandsOnTheWheel
01-18-2016, 05:55 PM
A trade is going to have to be made. Wade and Bosh are untouchable, outside of that I think they'll look at all their options and see what kind of interest everyone but those 2 get. I would only be surprised to see one of those two traded. Dragic Whiteside Deng and Winslow are our best tradeable assets and at this point Birdman and McInjured are just filler.

What makes Bosh untouchable? I would argue that even Wade isn't untouchable if not for his tenure but Bosh?

HandsOnTheWheel
01-18-2016, 06:01 PM
No. If they went small the lineup would more than likely be

Dragic
Wade
Winslow
Durant
Bosh

I think if we did get him the lineup we would go with would be

Dragic
Wade
Durant
Bosh
Whiteside

If you're Durant, do you go to a team with an older declining PF who he has a bad history with, or a team with a center entering his prime who will only get better?

Also there's no way we can afford that lineup you listed ^

HandsOnTheWheel
01-18-2016, 06:31 PM
Again this is all hypothetical and would be mostly geared toward signing Durant, who is a total wildcard as far as which team he will sign with. But I think our greatest hope would be trading Bosh.

beasted86
01-18-2016, 10:01 PM
First off, throw whatever hypothetical in the garbage if its supposedly geared towards Durant. Whiteside isn't as good as Westbrook and will probably never be as good. He's only a few months younger than Westbrook. So if you're asking to choose between a scrapped HEAT team with basically Whiteside and maybe Dragić and Winslow, and 1 max contract slot remaining, that's garbage in comparison to Westbrook, Ibaka, Kanter, Waiters and Payne...

Anyway, moving past that, and deciding just who is best for the HEAT future, obviously age takes a key in deciding. But if you're asking me to choose who will help the team produce more wins for the next 3 years (the remainder of Bosh's contract) he's way better than Whiteside.

Colin Cowherd was ranting about this on the radio the other day, and one of the few times I agreed with him. There are two types of fans. The ones who know what they know and no amount of stats, data or proof can change their minds, and the other type of fan feels they have an idea but are really after the full truth even if it proves them wrong in the end. Which one are you? The majority of data shows Whiteside hurts the HEAT on the defensive end. Bosh has double the net rating of Whiteside. Whiteside has an insane turnover ratio. Bosh is clearly insanely versatile and Whiteside is fairly limited, but maybe his jumper continues to develop...not sure.

Just accept the fact Whiteside is an incomplete player right now. Could I overlook this and hope he figures it out? Or keep Bosh who I know for sure what I'm getting and fits with almost anyone at Center I bring in and any type of team offensive/defensive scheme?

I feel I can overlook the age factor since Whiteside is only good in a few categories and so bad (not even average) in the others. I was just thinking recently that I could deal with Whiteside's offensive limitations, his abysmal passing, his attitude and immaturity, and his looming contract concerns if he was just a good post defender to go along with his shot blocking, rebounding and finishing strengths. But no... I cannot accept him being so bad in 1 on 1 post defense and give him $90M. They need to trade him before anyone else. Triple doubles or no triple doubles.

WaDe03
01-18-2016, 10:55 PM
If you're Durant, do you go to a team with an older declining PF who he has a bad history with, or a team with a center entering his prime who will only get better?

Also there's no way we can afford that lineup you listed ^

You showed them all in your lineup so I figured you just had Bosh coming off the bench.

SteBO
01-19-2016, 08:36 AM
First off, throw whatever hypothetical in the garbage if its supposedly geared towards Durant. Whiteside isn't as good as Westbrook and will probably never be as good. He's only a few months younger than Westbrook. So if you're asking to choose between a scrapped HEAT team with basically Whiteside and maybe Dragić and Winslow, and 1 max contract slot remaining, that's garbage in comparison to Westbrook, Ibaka, Kanter, Waiters and Payne...

Anyway, moving past that, and deciding just who is best for the HEAT future, obviously age takes a key in deciding. But if you're asking me to choose who will help the team produce more wins for the next 3 years (the remainder of Bosh's contract) he's way better than Whiteside.

Colin Cowherd was ranting about this on the radio the other day, and one of the few times I agreed with him. There are two types of fans. The ones who know what they know and no amount of stats, data or proof can change their minds, and the other type of fan feels they have an idea but are really after the full truth even if it proves them wrong in the end. Which one are you? The majority of data shows Whiteside hurts the HEAT on the defensive end. Bosh has double the net rating of Whiteside. Whiteside has an insane turnover ratio. Bosh is clearly insanely versatile and Whiteside is fairly limited, but maybe his jumper continues to develop...not sure.

Just accept the fact Whiteside is an incomplete player right now. Could I overlook this and hope he figures it out? Or keep Bosh who I know for sure what I'm getting and fits with almost anyone at Center I bring in and any type of team offensive/defensive scheme?

I feel I can overlook the age factor since Whiteside is only good in a few categories and so bad (not even average) in the others. I was just thinking recently that I could deal with Whiteside's offensive limitations, his abysmal passing, his attitude and immaturity, and his looming contract concerns if he was just a good post defender to go along with his shot blocking, rebounding and finishing strengths. But no... I cannot accept him being so bad in 1 on 1 post defense and give him $90M. They need to trade him before anyone else. Triple doubles or no triple doubles.
Pretty much my thoughts on this and then some. Bosh is gonna age, sure....but his game is gonna age well similar to Duncan/Dirk. Whiteside simply isn't the player fans think he is...less than average individual post player, bad post defender, turnover machine, and questionable attitude. Not a max guy in the slightest.

HandsOnTheWheel
01-19-2016, 10:07 AM
I can't stand Whiteside just as much as the next guy, but by thinking ambitiously (as Pat often does when involving FAs), Bosh's contract takes up over a fourth of our cap right off the bat and will near close to a third.

Going forward in terms of dynasty, would we be better suited with Whiteside or Bosh? We can still trade Whiteside who will have much more value than Bosh down the line. Trade Bosh while he's still considered an all-star. You think Dirk or Duncan have high trade value atm? They make a hell of a lot less too.

Get Durant this summer, sign Wade to a 1 year 10-15 mill. type of contract, re-sign Whiteside (maybe he takes less) then vy towards trying to get Russell Westbrook next offseason.

It's not unrealistic as you may think and is only contingent on having Bosh's contract off the books.

Westbrook/Dragic
Wade/Dragic
Winslow
Durant
Whiteside

Yes we can afford it if we can get Wade and Whiteside to take less/trade Dragic somewhere down the line. It may all sound far fetched as hell but who knows. It would be pretty sick if Wade gets a fourth ring in a Heat jersey before he retires.

SteBO
01-19-2016, 10:48 AM
Look man, we all would love to have Durant down here for the long haul, but unless it's a guarantee none of this talk even matters. And anyway, with where the league is headed and the $$ coming in w/ the salary cap increasing, Bosh's contract is gonna look pretty good. On top of that, he's just a flat BETTER player than Whiteside. Miami's not gonna marry an unsure commodity, especially if his deficiencies are in the areas that a post player in the modern NBA is simply not to have.

HandsOnTheWheel
01-19-2016, 11:06 AM
Yeah, it's all about stats for him, doesn't want to get in foul trouble, etc. etc.

He's a center & averaging close to 4 blocks a game. Since when has that been a "commodity" by any means?

Slug3
01-19-2016, 11:07 AM
Look man, we all would love to have Durant down here for the long haul, but unless it's a guarantee none of this talk even matters. And anyway, with where the league is headed and the $$ coming in w/ the salary cap increasing, Bosh's contract is gonna look pretty good. On top of that, he's just a flat BETTER player than Whiteside. Miami's not gonna marry an unsure commodity, especially if his deficiencies are in the areas that a post player in the modern NBA is simply not to have.

I can easily see Miami telling Whiteside they will give him a one year 8-10 million dollar deal for next year and look to give more with his bird rights the following year. I also see Whiteside bailing for some idiot team giving him 80 million+ and him not even coming close to living up to that contract. It will probably also be Dallas who does it and then Cuban will cry about it later.

nycericanguy
01-19-2016, 11:18 AM
I can't stand Whiteside just as much as the next guy, but by thinking ambitiously (as Pat often does when involving FAs), Bosh's contract takes up over a fourth of our cap right off the bat and will near close to a third.

Going forward in terms of dynasty, would we be better suited with Whiteside or Bosh? We can still trade Whiteside who will have much more value than Bosh down the line. Trade Bosh while he's still considered an all-star. You think Dirk or Duncan have high trade value atm? They make a hell of a lot less too.

Get Durant this summer, sign Wade to a 1 year 10-15 mill. type of contract, re-sign Whiteside (maybe he takes less) then vy towards trying to get Russell Westbrook next offseason.

It's not unrealistic as you may think and is only contingent on having Bosh's contract off the books.

Westbrook/Dragic
Wade/Dragic
Winslow
Durant
Whiteside

Yes we can afford it if we can get Wade and Whiteside to take less/trade Dragic somewhere down the line. It may all sound far fetched as hell but who knows. It would be pretty sick if Wade gets a fourth ring in a Heat jersey before he retires.

how can you be sure about that? People are actually starting to now question Whiteside's impact. It seems his perception has gone down this year, how do you know it won't continue to? How do you know that in 2 years or so when he's making close to $20m he'll have more value than Bosh? Bosh's game isn't exactly based on athleticism so he should be solid for the next 2-3 years.

Whiteside on the other hand is more of an athlete than skilled NBA player.

SteBO
01-19-2016, 12:03 PM
Yeah, it's all about stats for him, doesn't want to get in foul trouble, etc. etc.

He's a center & averaging close to 4 blocks a game. Since when has that been a "commodity" by any means?
Since when? Since this guy started leaving his man and not reacting quick enough to the pass. He's a skilled shot blocker....poor individual & team defender and that's not something Miami doles out big $$$ to. Until Hassan comes to understand that it's the little things that truly matter, Miami's not gonna bite. They'll use the cap space for the greater good, assuming a trade doesn't go down before the deadline.

beasted86
01-19-2016, 12:27 PM
Since when? Since this guy started leaving his man and not reacting quick enough to the pass. He's a skilled shot blocker....poor individual & team defender and that's not something Miami doles out big $$$ to. Until Hassan comes to understand that it's the little things that truly matter, Miami's not gonna bite. They'll use the cap space for the greater good, assuming a trade doesn't go down before the deadline.

It's basically a relay race between now and February 18th. He has almost exactly one month to show drastic improvement in one on one post defense and team defense.

If he's not showing enough progress they need to trade him by that trade deadline date.

Here are the upcoming match-ups against scoring Centers in this next month worth of games:

Greg Monroe x 2
Pau Gasol
Brooke Lopez
Al Horford x 2
Dwight Howard
Al Jefferson

I've left off names like Duncan, Gortat, and J-Val who also have the ability to drop 20+ on Whiteside. We'll see how he does.

I'll just come right out and say it, if he gets owned again by Lopez he needs to go. That game against Brooklyn is exactly one week from today. If there is no learning curve thru 3 games against this guy, then I can comfortably say he's probably not going to show any more exponential improvement like people expect from him as they keep harping about how young he is and that he'll only get better (despite being 26).

Mr. Baller
01-19-2016, 12:53 PM
Its Bosh and not close.

Slug3
01-19-2016, 12:55 PM
Since when? Since this guy started leaving his man and not reacting quick enough to the pass. He's a skilled shot blocker....poor individual & team defender and that's not something Miami doles out big $$$ to. Until Hassan comes to understand that it's the little things that truly matter, Miami's not gonna bite. They'll use the cap space for the greater good, assuming a trade doesn't go down before the deadline.

Miami would much rather have a center who averages 1-2 BPG but still plays solid help defense and solid post D then someone who averages 5 blocks a game but cant play D anywhere else.

WaDe03
01-19-2016, 02:51 PM
Its Bosh and not close.

This.

WaDe03
01-19-2016, 02:56 PM
Let's just get Melo for whatever other than Wade and Bosh and go from there. Sign guys from buyouts and all that good stuff. The defense has been great I just think we need an offensive player who can score in multiple ways like Wade and Bosh. When one of them is off its basically the other one killing or nothing at all if we add another guy their level we would have more to rely on offensively. That's one of the reasons we were so good with the big 3 except now we have a much better supporting cast depending on who we have to give up and can get through signing guys who get bought out. Durant isn't coming.

nycericanguy
01-19-2016, 03:35 PM
Let's just get Melo for whatever other than Wade and Bosh and go from there. Sign guys from buyouts and all that good stuff. The defense has been great I just think we need an offensive player who can score in multiple ways like Wade and Bosh. When one of them is off its basically the other one killing or nothing at all if we add another guy their level we would have more to rely on offensively. That's one of the reasons we were so good with the big 3 except now we have a much better supporting cast depending on who we have to give up and can get through signing guys who get bought out. Durant isn't coming.

i doubt the KNicks would move Melo at this point.

They are better off just trying to sign Conley this offseason instead of taking on Dragic.

WaDe03
01-19-2016, 04:43 PM
i doubt the KNicks would move Melo at this point.

They are better off just trying to sign Conley this offseason instead of taking on Dragic.

You could be right but you never know. If we offered winslow I think it would be hard for them to say no because of the 1-2 punch him and Porzingus could be in the future. It would also assure y'all another top pick in the draft to go with them unless you all have traded that pick.

SportsFanatic10
01-19-2016, 05:14 PM
In my opinion the choice between Whiteside and Bosh would be a lot closer than most think, at least to me. Bosh has many nights where he hardly shows up, and at his age and salary the case can be made against him as well. I could argue that he just doesn't show up offensively consistently enough to be our highest paid player for the next 3 years or whatever is left on his max deal. He certainly isn't quite a legit number one option most nights, but can definitely have his moments. I'd probably side with Bosh as well, but not by a landslide or anything.

SportsFanatic10
01-19-2016, 05:23 PM
As for Melo I think that would be pretty risky. We'd likely have to part with some combination of Winslow/Deng/Dragic/Whiteside. I really don't think Winslow should go anywhere, because if he can develop his shooting he could turn out to be very good. Kawhi Leonard was a poor shooter coming in for instance, so it could happen if he works at it enough.

But back to Melo, it's been proven over and over that if the fit isn't right then just throwing stars together doesn't work. Unless the talent is just so supreme that it can win out sometimes like with our Lebron teams. Melo doesn't put us on that level talant wise I don't think, and I also predict he'd be a poor fit as another ball dominant player. Yes his elite scoring would help in many games, but overall it's just hard for me to see him fitting in with this team very well.

Defensively he won't be a help or anything, certainly not over Deng or Winslow. Offensively he'd help space the floor which is big, but we'd very likely become even more iso heavy and the ball would stick a lot between him and Wade and even Bosh. On the nights when at least 2 of the 3 have it going we'd be very good, but I don't think that will happen often enough with them sharing the ball. Instead of having Wade and Dragic sharing ball handling duties (who are both at least good passers, for sure better playmakers then Melo), we'd have Melo stopping the offensive flow and Wade doing the same to a lesser extent already.

Slug3
01-19-2016, 06:23 PM
As for Melo I think that would be pretty risky. We'd likely have to part with some combination of Winslow/Deng/Dragic/Whiteside. I really don't think Winslow should go anywhere, because if he can develop his shooting he could turn out to be very good. Kawhi Leonard was a poor shooter coming in for instance, so it could happen if he works at it enough.

But back to Melo, it's been proven over and over that if the fit isn't right then just throwing stars together doesn't work. Unless the talent is just so supreme that it can win out sometimes like with our Lebron teams. Melo doesn't put us on that level talant wise I don't think, and I also predict he'd be a poor fit as another ball dominant player. Yes his elite scoring would help in many games, but overall it's just hard for me to see him fitting in with this team very well.

Defensively he won't be a help or anything, certainly not over Deng or Winslow. Offensively he'd help space the floor which is big, but we'd very likely become even more iso heavy and the ball would stick a lot between him and Wade and even Bosh. On the nights when at least 2 of the 3 have it going we'd be very good, but I don't think that will happen often enough with them sharing the ball. Instead of having Wade and Dragic sharing ball handling duties (who are both at least good passers, for sure better playmakers then Melo), we'd have Melo stopping the offensive flow and Wade doing the same to a lesser extent already.

Winslow shouldn't go anywhere for the fact we wont have any young talent to develop coming in anytime soon with all our picks pretty much gone.

beasted86
01-19-2016, 06:41 PM
In my opinion the choice between Whiteside and Bosh would be a lot closer than most think, at least to me. Bosh has many nights where he hardly shows up, and at his age and salary the case can be made against him as well. I could argue that he just doesn't show up offensively consistently enough to be our highest paid player for the next 3 years or whatever is left on his max deal. He certainly isn't quite a legit number one option most nights, but can definitely have his moments. I'd probably side with Bosh as well, but not by a landslide or anything.

Put it this way, if we are assuming Whiteside will get a max contract next summer, if I'm choosing between Bosh at $24M or Whiteside at $20M+... Then, yes, it's pretty clear cut.

If we are talking about Bosh at $24M and Whiteside at $12M then its obvious who you go with there.

But to me it's clear Whiteside will go for as much money as possible, and rightly so. Get it while it's good before you get injured or teams really figure you out as a phony.

All-In
01-19-2016, 07:54 PM
Eric Gordon for Whiteside, Deng and McBob or Bird?
Julius Randle and Jordan Clarkson for Whiteside and McBob or Bird?
Jordan Clarkson for Whiteside?
Dwight Powell for Whiteside?
Mason Plumlee for Whiteside and JRich?
Richaun Holmes for Whiteside?

As you can tell the only thing Im thinking about is how to move Whiteside.....Ive wanted to move him since last trade deadline, so to me its not a question of "if" but "how" are we going to trade Whiteside....the sooner the better because paying him anywhere near the money hes going to want/command this off-season would not be a wise move

WaDe03
01-19-2016, 08:14 PM
Eric Gordon for Whiteside, Deng and McBob or Bird?
Julius Randle and Jordan Clarkson for Whiteside and McBob or Bird?
Jordan Clarkson for Whiteside?
Dwight Powell for Whiteside?
Mason Plumlee for Whiteside and JRich?
Richaun Holmes for Whiteside?

As you can tell the only thing Im thinking about is how to move Whiteside.....Ive wanted to move him since last trade deadline, so to me its not a question of "if" but "how" are we going to trade Whiteside....the sooner the better because paying him anywhere near the money hes going to want/command this off-season would not be a wise move

Your first 2 trades were good ideas although I think we'd be giving up way too much for Gordon. Is his contract up after this year? The last 2 were terrible though lol.

All-In
01-19-2016, 08:35 PM
Your first 2 trades were good ideas although I think we'd be giving up way too much for Gordon. Is his contract up after this year? The last 2 were terrible though lol.

Yea, Gordon would be an unrestricted FA this off-season and I think we would have his bird rights too

WaDe03
01-19-2016, 08:45 PM
Yea, Gordon would be an unrestricted FA this off-season and I think we would have his bird rights too

That's something to look at id say. His shooting would be great.

SportsFanatic10
01-19-2016, 08:47 PM
Put it this way, if we are assuming Whiteside will get a max contract next summer, if I'm choosing between Bosh at $24M or Whiteside at $20M+... Then, yes, it's pretty clear cut.

If we are talking about Bosh at $24M and Whiteside at $12M then its obvious who you go with there.

But to me it's clear Whiteside will go for as much money as possible, and rightly so. Get it while it's good before you get injured or teams really figure you out as a phony.

Well Bosh will also be 6 years older, and Whiteside still has time and potential to improve whereas Bosh's play will only trend downwards from here.

Like I said I'd still take Bosh. Mostly because of how the league is trending smaller and Bosh can play well at the 5 spacing the floor and playing good pick and roll defense. But I just don't see it as not at all close is all moving forward.

SportsFanatic10
01-19-2016, 08:57 PM
Winslow shouldn't go anywhere for the fact we wont have any young talent to develop coming in anytime soon with all our picks pretty much gone.

Agreed for sure...also another reason why I think the Bosh/Whiteside argument is closer than most think going forward. We need to keep all the young talent we can with our lack of picks. I see Winslow, Whiteside, and Johnson as our only good and promising young players right now.

All-In
01-19-2016, 08:58 PM
That's something to look at id say. His shooting would be great.

Yep and if Dragic can be more consistent from 3, which he was starting to be before the injury, then we would have a great shooting backcourt which would open up SOOOO much space on offense with Bosh at C

Dade County
01-21-2016, 02:00 AM
Bosh & Whiteside are fine, the problem is Wade & Deng (they can not be starting next to each other).

We need 2 shooters out there. I've been saying before the season started that Deng should be coming off the bench; but the problem is, we don't have real good options.

Dragic
Shooter (3&D)
Shooter (3&D)
Bosh
Whiteside

Wade, Tj,..etc

This can work. Wade can still finish games for us, he's still a playmaker.

eDush
02-29-2016, 01:49 PM
Brain = Bosh
Brawn = Whiteside

TylerSL
03-04-2016, 04:39 PM
We can have both and we absolutely should. Barring Bosh's clots don't happen EVERY year :sigh: