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BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 12:54 PM
Chris Webber
Shawn Kemp
Vince Carter
Kevin Johnson
Robert Horry
Allen Iverson
Ray Allen
Darryl Dawkins
Grant Hill
Ben Wallace
Mark Aguire
Danny Ainge
Bill Laimbeer
Buck Williams
Larry Nance
Jeff Hornacek
A.C. Green
Dale Ellis
Tom Chambers
Horace Grant
Sam Perkins
Michael Finley
Vinnie Johnson
Rod Strickland
Ron Harper
Shawn Marion
Kurt Rambis
Glen Rice
George McGinnis
Walter Davis

flea
01-10-2016, 01:02 PM
No to all except VC, AI, Allen, Wallace, and Laimbeer. Personally I don't think VC was ever any better than Aguirre but he was pushed as a face in the post-Jordan era.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 01:20 PM
Is that who you think should make it or is it who you think will make it.

I know that Webber and Kemp will both make it. people that know the game know that in their primes they were both top 30 players. 6'10 power players are much better than 6'5 three point shooters.

valade16
01-10-2016, 01:54 PM
AI, C-Webb and Ben Wallace should not be in the HOF.

All were inefficient shooters.

valade16
01-10-2016, 01:56 PM
No to all except VC, AI, Allen, Wallace, and Laimbeer. Personally I don't think VC was ever any better than Aguirre but he was pushed as a face in the post-Jordan era.

Why do you say Laimbeer?

Also, do you think Hill just didn't have enough great seasons?

Why do you think Marion shouldn't be in?

flea
01-10-2016, 02:01 PM
Is that who you think should make it or is it who you think will make it.

I know that Webber and Kemp will both make it. people that know the game know that in their primes they were both top 30 players. 6'10 power players are much better than 6'5 three point shooters.

Who I think deserves it, definitely not who I think will go in. Whoever sold the most shoes is probably in, which correlates heavily with PPG.

Ben Wallace is one of my favorite players so I'm biased there, but he was better than Rodman and was arguably the best player on his championship team (back to back Finals team too).

Laimbeer was a way bigger part of the Bad Boys than Rodman too, I think it's unfair his backcourt got in but he hasn't. Maybe it's his reputation for being dirty, or for taking the blame for Isaiah's little stunt, but for whatever reason he doesn't get much movement. Doubt he'll ever be in but he was a great 2-way center and it wasn't a coincidence that the Pistons quit being a power once he fell off, even if the guards were early 30s too.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 02:03 PM
AI, C-Webb and Ben Wallace should not be in the HOF.

All were inefficient shooters.

Webber shot about 48% for his career and that is counting every season. League average is 45% now days. Anything higher than that you are likely to win, while below 45% you might just lose.

Rodman is in the HOF and should be. It's not just an award for who shot the most threes. I see what many young people are trying to turn it into.

Ben Wallace was a top 5 defender maybe of all time. Defense is very important to winning.

I'm not even the biggest fan of AI, but he will make it. Infact I think they already announced him to make it next time. He averaged way too many points for a long time to keep out. I'm not saying that is the only thing we should look at, but then you average like 30 a game for 12 years you should be there. Granted he shot about 43% but so did a lot of other players in the Hall. Also he got to the line so he was efficient overall.

Also when he had Larry coaching him, players played for him and he would get everyone about 10 shots which is a lot.

flea
01-10-2016, 02:04 PM
Why do you say Laimbeer?

Also, do you think Hill just didn't have enough great seasons?

Why do you think Marion shouldn't be in?

I think he edited to add some players, I didn't see Marion when I looked through and posted. I would definitely put him in and I've been in the minority on that opinion around here before, but I don't think he'll get in. I'll look at the rest of the guys he added later, but no to Hill even though I was a big fan. Maybe for his college career, of which I cared as much about as a Duke fan.

valade16
01-10-2016, 02:07 PM
I think he edited to add some players, I didn't see Marion when I looked through and posted. I would definitely put him in and I've been in the minority on that opinion around here before, but I don't think he'll get in. I'll look at the rest of the guys he added later, but no to Hill even though I was a big fan. Maybe for his college career, of which I cared as much about as a Duke fan.

I saw your response about Laimbeer.

I agree about Marion, if it were up to me I'd put him in.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 02:08 PM
Who I think deserves it, definitely not who I think will go in. Whoever sold the most shoes is probably in, which correlates heavily with PPG.

Ben Wallace is one of my favorite players so I'm biased there, but he was better than Rodman and was arguably the best player on his championship team (back to back Finals team too).

Laimbeer was a way bigger part of the Bad Boys than Rodman too, I think it's unfair his backcourt got in but he hasn't. Maybe it's his reputation for being dirty, or for taking the blame for Isaiah's little stunt, but for whatever reason he doesn't get much movement. Doubt he'll ever be in but he was a great 2-way center and it wasn't a coincidence that the Pistons quit being a power once he fell off, even if the guards were early 30s too.

I get what you're saying about the shoes. And actually back THEN that usually said who was good. Now days I don't think we can go by that past 2005.

But really I'll say this. Webber was making more money for the NBA than LeBron ever did. LeBron gets a very low Rating on tv and with jersey sales and such. While Webber in those series he was playing wsa bringing in 14's on the Neilson rating vs. Lakers everytime and Mavericks. Also people were watching the Kings in the regular season.
Same with Kemp he was bringing in the dough for the NBA and rightfully so. He was one of the best to ever play. Sonics had to up and leave when Kemp wasn't there. They couldn't get anyone to watch anymore in the Washington area or across the Nation. Kemp also was bringing in 14's on the Neilson.

No player today does that.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 02:10 PM
I saw your response about Laimbeer.

I agree about Marion, if it were up to me I'd put him in.

I don't think Marion should be in. I think he's close though. But I'd rather see SF's like McGinnis, Rice and Aguirre get in first.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 02:17 PM
I'll be honest I didn't see Richmond getting in. If he's in than Finley should be, because Finley was a lot better than Richmond and Finley is the one that rebuilt the Mavs.

Another name I think should be there is Spud Webb. This guy wasn't 5'7. He was 5'6 and he won a dunk contest when the NBA had great dunk contest. He put on a show that people will marvel at forever.

DboneG
01-10-2016, 02:18 PM
Chris Webber ............Big YES
Shawn Kemp ............YES
Vince Carter .............Big YES
Kevin Johnson.......... A good chance, but, I think not.
Robert Horry .............Big YES
Allen Iverson ............Big YES
Ray Allen .................Big YES
Darryl Dawkins .........A good chance
Grant Hill .................A decent chance
Ben Wallace ............No. I luv Big Ben game.
Mark Aguire ............ No.
Danny Ainge ............No. But, politics will get him in. So, Yes.
Bill Laimbeer ............A good chance
Buck Williams ..........A decent chance
Larry Nance .............No
Jeff Hornacek ..........No
A.C. Green ..............A decent chance
Dale Ellis ................A decent chance, but, No
Tom Chambers ........A decent chance, but, No
Horace Grant ..........A good chance, YES
Sam Perkins ..........No
Michael Finley ........No
Vinnie Johnson .......No
Rod Strickland ........No
Ron Harper .............No
Shawn Marion .........good career, but, No
Kurt Rambis ..........No
Glen Rice ..............No
George McGinnis ....Big George McGinnis! No
Walter Davis ..........Intriguing

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 02:30 PM
Chris Webber ............Big YES
Shawn Kemp ............YES
Vince Carter .............Big YES
Kevin Johnson.......... A good chance, but, I think not.
Robert Horry .............Big YES
Allen Iverson ............Big YES
Ray Allen .................Big YES
Darryl Dawkins .........A good chance
Grant Hill .................A decent chance
Ben Wallace ............No. I luv Big Ben game.
Mark Aguire ............ No.
Danny Ainge ............No. But, politics will get him in. So, Yes.
Bill Laimbeer ............A good chance
Buck Williams ..........A decent chance
Larry Nance .............No
Jeff Hornacek ..........No
A.C. Green ..............A decent chance
Dale Ellis ................A decent chance, but, No
Tom Chambers ........A decent chance, but, No
Horace Grant ..........A good chance, YES
Sam Perkins ..........No
Michael Finley ........No
Vinnie Johnson .......No
Rod Strickland ........No
Ron Harper .............No
Shawn Marion .........good career, but, No
Kurt Rambis ..........No
Glen Rice ..............No
George McGinnis ....Big George McGinnis! No
Walter Davis ..........Intriguing

How can you say no on Finley, who rebuilt the Mavs
McGinnis who was a 6 time All Star and played like Gervin or someone.
and Aguire who nearly beat the Lakers by himself with the Mavs, then when he joined the Pistons they all of a sudden beat the Lakers, Bulls and Blazers. Two Rings and still was averaging about 15 a game on those teams and for his per 36 min career he's at like 24 points even above D Wade.

I think the Mavericks deserve more HOFer honestly They've pretty much been about the 5th best franchise since 1980 and probably the 8th best franchise since 1950.

Finley should be in. It's not his fault Cuban was trying to be a punk and figure out a way to use the amesity rule. Cuban was going out of his way to use it. Finley was still averaging 16 a game and like the little kid Cuban is he thinks every player has to average 40 points a game.

Finley didn't even miss a game for his first 7 seasons and he played a lot of PF for the Mavs at 6'6 215. He took it to the rim everytime.

valade16
01-10-2016, 02:57 PM
Finley rebuilt the Mavs? That will be news to Dirk.

ewing
01-10-2016, 04:24 PM
Kurt Rambis gave me a chuckle

DboneG
01-10-2016, 05:16 PM
How can you say no on Finley, who rebuilt the Mavs
McGinnis who was a 6 time All Star and played like Gervin or someone.
and Aguire who nearly beat the Lakers by himself with the Mavs, then when he joined the Pistons they all of a sudden beat the Lakers, Bulls and Blazers. Two Rings and still was averaging about 15 a game on those teams and for his per 36 min career he's at like 24 points even above D Wade.

I think the Mavericks deserve more HOFer honestly They've pretty much been about the 5th best franchise since 1980 and probably the 8th best franchise since 1950.

Finley should be in. It's not his fault Cuban was trying to be a punk and figure out a way to use the amesity rule. Cuban was going out of his way to use it. Finley was still averaging 16 a game and like the little kid Cuban is he thinks every player has to average 40 points a game.

Finley didn't even miss a game for his first 7 seasons and he played a lot of PF for the Mavs at 6'6 215. He took it to the rim everytime.




Finley was a very good ball player! He only made 2 all-star appearances...so, that kind of says there were guys better than him almost every year. Making the all-star team doesn't mean you are not an elite player, but, I think the voters will be looking at that kind of stuff. Maybe alone with championships,career points, defense, his approach to the game. I just don't think he'll make it.

I loved Big George! He was a 3x ABA all-star, 3x NBA all-star, the thing here is these voters kinda discount ABA stats. If they didn't...George McGinnis would be in. He's a 2x champ in the ABA, ABA league MVP. Big George was awesome!

Big Mark Aguire was just awesome in college! He was awesome in HS! But, his professional numbers just don't add up enough to make the Hall. He's a 2x champ...but, that Pistons team was stacked. They had Adrian Dantley help carrying them, then, some BS, and here's Mark Aguire! So, I was always mixed on that trade. I luv AD.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 05:40 PM
Rodman only made one All Star game. Marcilounus made no all star games. It's not always about all star games.

Name a better SG in this current NBA than Finley who could do everything on the basketball floor. He taught Dirk how to play. He also taught Nash how to play. I used to go to their practices and it was he that gave them that work ethic. He rebuilt the Mavs by himself.

It's not all about "numbers". I can't believe you don't know that. I mean look at Pippen who has a career average of 16, 6,5. But is the best SF I ever saw.

Connie Hawkins should be in the HOF too.

Why don't you just admit that you didnt' see Finley that much or Aguirre or McGinnis I don't care what you think the voters look for cause no one knows that.

Everyone knows that Mike Finley should be in th eHOF. He was better than Richmond.

Also the Mavs with Finley Dirk and Nash is the best big three ever. besides Kareem, Worthy and Magic. Far better than Run TMC.

There isn't a Shooting guard today as good and athletic as Finley was from day one with the Suns. Not one dunker today even close to Finley. No shooting guard that can play every game for 5 straight years and average over 20 on post ups and play defense.

DboneG
01-10-2016, 05:55 PM
Right! It's not all about numbers...Dennis Rodman is a perfect example of that.

Connie Hawkins should be in there...I agree.


"Also the Mavs with Finley Dirk and Nash is the best big three ever." Nash never had any defense! He'll get you 20pts., but the guy he was guarding got 30! lol Dirk was never known for D either.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 06:01 PM
Right! It's not all about numbers...Dennis Rodman is a perfect example of that.

Connie Hawkins should be in there...I agree.


"Also the Mavs with Finley Dirk and Nash is the best big three ever." Nash never had any defense! He'll get you 20pts., but the guy he was guarding got 30! lol Dirk was never known for D either.

Nash had decent defense. That is just a myth that he didn't play defense. Also I have never seen a point guard score 30 on him. But I have seen other point gaurds like Payton and Curry give up 40 on occasion and 30 everyother game.

It's basketball. One season I checked what Nash gives up and it was 15 ppg but it was when PG's were good at scoring. Also they only shot 44% While Nash averaged 18 that season and shot about 50%. While his team won and their team lost. He won 60 and they lost 60.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 06:03 PM
So you think because Ginobili is white and from Europe he should be previledge and be in the HOF but someone that was 3 times the player shouldn't be because he was Black and born in Chicago?

JasonJohnHorn
01-10-2016, 06:29 PM
The following players get a 'No' from me.

Danny Ainge: Good player. Good teammate. As much as you can expect from a role player. But he never really stood out to me. Great 3-point shooter, but he rode the coat tales of star players, and never really lifted them above where they already were, nor did he excel above other elite role players. An ASG appearance, yes, but I don't remember him throwing daggers down to win championships, and nor did he put together the total ring count of a guy like Horry.

Buck Williams: A double-double machine, but never much other than some post buckets and some rebounders. Drew Gooden would have had similar stats if he had more minute throughout his career (though Gooden wasn't as good defensively). I liked Buck Williams and his work ethic, and he was smart player and strong defender, but he was a role player. I'm surprised he ever made an ASG to be honest.


Dale Ellis: I like him a lot, don't get me wrong. He had a streak of 4 or 5 years where he put up crazy good shooting stats. Great 3-baller. But In Seattle he got swept out of the playoffs twice, and lost in the first round twice. He had a couple deep runs, but without any seasons in legit contention, and only one ASG and one All-NBA team, he seemed like a second fiddle that posed as a franchise player and then quickly dropped into a role-player position. I'm on the fence though. I could be convinced the other way.

Sam Perkins: I like him. Nice stretch C/PF. Would fit in well with today's game. But a starter who averages in the mid teens and only grabs 6-8 boards a game without putting his stamp on any championship teams? Seems like a mundane career to me.


Rod Strickland: Like this guy a lot. Great play maker, but never put his stamp on a champion. I could be convinced on this one I think, but I'd have to hear a good argument. I do think it's a shame he never made an ASG (despite making an All-NBA team). But other than putting up nice regular season stats, and fitting in with a deep Portland team that got to the finals, I just don't see much reason.

Kurt Rambis: No. God no. Is this one a joke? I like Kurt and all, but really? Four time champion, yes, but dude averaged single digits as a started for years, and single digits in rebounds, and he wasn't a stellar defender from what I remember (though I watching him more later in his career). He just happened to by a body the Lakers had. He was good at high-fiving players and getting into fights for his teammates so they didn't get kicked out of games. He was a weak player really Put in the starting line-up early on because it allowed some vets to come off then bench. When Magic and Kareem got tired, pull Rambis out, put McAdoo or Wilkes or whoever in, give them a fresh body. It was smart coaching and managing guys minutes, but he was never much more than a plug. Honest worker. Yes. HOF? No.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 06:37 PM
Acutally Kurt was a very good player that played like Bill Laimbeer for the Lakers. He was the Rodman of the Lakers. Great help defender and great one on one defender. I watched him from his first game on. So I got you there.
Also was key in the fast break that the Lakers played because they said he was the best out let passer they ever saw. That is Magic's words and Pat Riley said it before to in interviews during the 80's. ALso he was a ver yfast and athletic player for a 6'9 player. (today would be called 7 feet). Very smart player.

DboneG
01-10-2016, 06:37 PM
Ginobili wasn't on the list! But, he makes the Hall. He won championships. He won games!


You had a guy named Clyde Drexler beating Michael Finley....lol Mitch Richman, Latrel Srpewell, Kobe...so, what was Finley doing that was so, compelling! That would put him in the HOF?! Winning championships? NO Getting scoring titles? NO Playing lock down defense? NO/he played good defense Making the all-star team? NO


Michael Finley don't make it in my book. His overall body of work doesn't get him in. Michael was a terrific player!

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 06:51 PM
Ginobili wasn't on the list! But, he makes the Hall. He won championships. He won games!


You had a guy named Clyde Drexler beating Michael Finley....lol Mitch Richman, Latrel Srpewell, Kobe...so, what was Finley doing that was so, compelling! That would put him in the HOF?! Winning championships? NO Getting scoring titles? NO Playing lock down defense? NO/he played good defense Making the all-star team? NO


Michael Finley don't make it in my book. His overall body of work doesn't get him in. Michael was a terrific player!


He actually did win a Champsionship he swept LeBron. He took a 20 win team to 60 wins in 4 years. Not many players ever do that. Not only did he lead the NBA in minutes every year, but he didn't miss a game until about his 8th season. He set the record since 1980 for most minutes ever played for their first 8 seasons.

Also he's honestly the only player I have ever seen play every single position on the floor. Nelson played him at PF, SF, C, SG and PG. Yes even center for about 40 minutes one game. It also forced the other teams hand. Their center was being blocked by Finley each time the 7 footer tried to throw a hook. Finley had amazing hops. Nelson was the first to play the 5 guard lineup.... I remember when the media hated him for it. Now it's what everyteam is trying to do and how the GS won the title last season with Green a natural guard at center.

How is Suronus marcilonus better than Mike Finley?

DboneG
01-10-2016, 07:08 PM
Finley won a championship with the Spurs...06-07. He averaged 9pts a game. So, he was on the down side of his career. He did play all 82 games that year.

Scoots
01-10-2016, 07:23 PM
No

JasonJohnHorn
01-10-2016, 07:24 PM
Acutally Kurt was a very good player that played like Bill Laimbeer for the Lakers. He was the Rodman of the Lakers. Great help defender and great one on one defender. I watched him from his first game on. So I got you there.
Also was key in the fast break that the Lakers played because they said he was the best out let passer they ever saw. That is Magic's words and Pat Riley said it before to in interviews during the 80's. ALso he was a ver yfast and athletic player for a 6'9 player. (today would be called 7 feet). Very smart player.

I have to concede in part. I watched him more later in his career. Good outlet passer, yes. Like Rodman or Laimbeer? I dunno... Laimbeer was a solid 3-baller and was an elite rebounder and clever defender. At least two of those things Rambis was not. Rodman was a legendary rebounder and defender, and Rambis was certainly neither of those.

I can see what you mean in terms of energy and hustle. Kurt did those things like Rodman. And like Laimbeer, he was there to protect the other guys on the court. If somebody got rough with Kareem or Worthy, Kurt was the guy to get in the middle, and given how tough the NBA was back then, every team needed that. He was good because he would do that, and bad enough that if you lost him to suspension it wasn't going to hurt your chances of winning.

As a passer... it's hard to gauge for me. You can't rely on stats, because he played on a Lakers team with Magic and Nixon. Obviously they were making the plays and getting the bulk of the assists, but there was a lot of ball movement with that Lakers team, so (like the Spurs today and the Warriors), everybody needed to be able to move the rock. Rambis was competent, especially with an outlet pass, but I don't recall him being a great playmaker, though he was a reliable passer.

But I was a tad on the young side when he was with the Lakers, so I might not have picked up on the more nuanced aspects of his game.

Despite his low rebounding averages, his per36 stats suggest he was good at picking up balls of the glass. So I shouldn't hold his limited minutes against him.

Still.. HOF? I'm not sure I can get behind that.


You have some good points though, and you are a Buck Williams fans, so I can get behind that as well.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 07:31 PM
Averaged 11 in the playoffs and was the one guarding lebrat. Stats DONT MATTER. Sometimes the best players average 8.

Not all about taking all your teams shots. It's about playing as a team and letting everyone get shots.

JasonJohnHorn
01-10-2016, 07:36 PM
He actually did win a Champsionship he swept LeBron. He took a 20 win team to 60 wins in 4 years. Not many players ever do that. Not only did he lead the NBA in minutes every year, but he didn't miss a game until about his 8th season. He set the record since 1980 for most minutes ever played for their first 8 seasons.

Also he's honestly the only player I have ever seen play every single position on the floor. Nelson played him at PF, SF, C, SG and PG. Yes even center for about 40 minutes one game. It also forced the other teams hand. Their center was being blocked by Finley each time the 7 footer tried to throw a hook. Finley had amazing hops. Nelson was the first to play the 5 guard lineup.... I remember when the media hated him for it. Now it's what everyteam is trying to do and how the GS won the title last season with Green a natural guard at center.

How is Suronus marcilonus better than Mike Finley?

Good call.

Finley was an amazing baller. I think in a different situation, he would have been compared to the like of Wade. Great defensive player. Hard worker. Fantastic conditioning. Good 3point shooter. I remember watching him a see him as Jordan-light. Rather than 30-7-7, he was getting 22-5-5. Great rebounder for his position. Solid passer. Great go-to scorer who could create for himself and others.

His problem was that he was on a team that decided to go with Dirk as a first option, and let Nash to the bulk of the ball handling, which was the right call in both respects. But had he, say, been on the Lakers from 2000-2003, he would have excelled in the place where Kobe played (not saying he would have done better than Kobe mind you). He was just in a situation where the coaching staff and roster negated some of his skills. But yeah... put him in the triangle and under a coach like Jax instead of Nelson.... people would be speaking about Finley in an entirely different light.

Also, he was a late bloomer. Some guys get in the league, and BAM. Jordan. Hakeem. Robison. They come in at an MVP level. Others are All-Stars from game one: LBJ, Durant, Griffin.

Others need a few seasons to develop, like Pippen, or Granger. Finley was one of those guys. So he was 25 or 26 by the time he reached his potential, and at that time he was on a roster that was developing young talent like Dirk and trying to see what guys like Gary Trent could do (Nelson gave him the ball too much).

I always felt like Nelson was the wrong coach for that team.


But, yeah... Finley was one of the best SG's I've seen play.

Hawkeye15
01-10-2016, 07:38 PM
Chris Webber
Shawn Kemp
Vince Carter
Kevin Johnson
Robert Horry
Allen Iverson
Ray Allen
Darryl Dawkins
Grant Hill
Ben Wallace
Mark Aguire
Danny Ainge
Bill Laimbeer
Buck Williams
Larry Nance
Jeff Hornacek
A.C. Green
Dale Ellis
Tom Chambers
Horace Grant
Sam Perkins
Michael Finley
Vinnie Johnson
Rod Strickland
Ron Harper
Shawn Marion
Kurt Rambis
Glen Rice
George McGinnis
Walter Davis

most of them are, yes. Remember, NCAA, NBA, ABA, Fiba, International, coaching, front office, playground, all of it is used. So a guy like Joe Dumars for example sailed in, because he was 11th in NCAA scoring all time, a good NBA player, and won a chip as a GM. It all matters.

So think about the players you listed college, FIBA (if applicable), International (if applicable), etc.

Hawkeye15
01-10-2016, 07:38 PM
The Basketball HOF is by far the easiest to get into of the 4 major sports, because of the reasons I listed above.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 07:44 PM
Well, they need to start putting some players in that actually deserve it and played to win no matter what team they were on.

instead of just putting in 3 players every year. Of which one of them never belongs.

superwill
01-10-2016, 08:28 PM
First it's not the NBA hall of fame it's the basketball hall of fame. Secondly anybody who says Allen Iverson shouldn't be in HOF is a joke you can't be ****ing serious one of the greatest little man to ever play the game

Shammyguy3
01-10-2016, 09:24 PM
First it's not the NBA hall of fame it's the basketball hall of fame. Secondly anybody who says Allen Iverson shouldn't be in HOF is a joke you can't be ****ing serious one of the greatest little man to ever play the game

that doesn't mean he was a great player or should be in the NBA: he was highly inefficient and not great at anything. He's the most overrated player ever.

Should he be in the HOF? Oh idk, i honestly don't care. I'd like to see a real good argument for why he should be in though

valade16
01-10-2016, 09:34 PM
that doesn't mean he was a great player or should be in the NBA: he was highly inefficient and not great at anything. He's the most overrated player ever.

Should he be in the HOF? Oh idk, i honestly don't care. I'd like to see a real good argument for why he should be in though

Is there an MVP (eligible for the HOF) who isn't in the HOF?

tredigs
01-11-2016, 01:32 AM
AI, C-Webb and Ben Wallace should not be in the HOF.

All were inefficient shooters.

Ben Wallace has a case as the best peak defender in NBA history. 4 time DPOY and imo easily the most important cog to their championship team. Who cares how he shot?

Also, RIP BuckWilliams. Good run buddy.

valade16
01-11-2016, 10:16 AM
Ben Wallace has a case as the best peak defender in NBA history. 4 time DPOY and imo easily the most important cog to their championship team. Who cares how he shot?

Also, RIP BuckWilliams. Good run buddy.

I was given to understand from PSD that shooting efficiency was the only thing that matters.

Given the fact you disputed Big Ben, does that mean you agree AI and C-Webb shouldn't be in the HOF? Or do you think they should and just did not address them.

Gander13SM
01-11-2016, 10:29 AM
The basketball HOF is a lot more lenient than others IMHO. I can see a case for any of these guys.

tredigs
01-11-2016, 11:02 AM
I was given to understand from PSD that shooting efficiency was the only thing that matters.

Given the fact you disputed Big Ben, does that mean you agree AI and C-Webb shouldn't be in the HOF? Or do you think they should and just did not address them.

Gotchya, should've realized you were joking. AI's getting in as well. Webber was good enough in his prime, but his college career has a polarizing tint due to the TO (not fair, but it is what it is) and overall he was just injured so often I sort of doubt he made a strong enough impression to get in. Maybe in a weak year he makes it. Kemp's still not in either.

valade16
01-11-2016, 11:07 AM
Gotchya, should've realized you were joking. AI's getting in as well. Webber was good enough in his prime, but his college career has a polarizing tint due to the TO (not fair, but it is what it is) and overall he was just injured so often I sort of doubt he made a strong enough impression to get in. Maybe in a weak year he makes it. Kemp's still not in either.

Good point about C-Webb's college career. Although the Fab 5 were a phenomenon in college at the time so it may balance out. Then again, you do have his accepting payment to play situation and his barring from Michigan games so that could also work against him.

YAALREADYKNO
01-11-2016, 11:30 AM
LOL @ Robert Horry. If he gets in the HOF will officially become a joke. Sure he hit a lot of clutch shots and has 7 rings but playing with Olajuwon, Duncan, Shaq and Kobe helped. The man averaged 7ppg and under 5rpg for his career

MarvinJackson
01-11-2016, 12:22 PM
Gotchya, should've realized you were joking. AI's getting in as well. Webber was good enough in his prime, but his college career has a polarizing tint due to the TO (not fair, but it is what it is) and overall he was just injured so often I sort of doubt he made a strong enough impression to get in. Maybe in a weak year he makes it. Kemp's still not in either.

So one to call which actually made NCAA more popular and made SO MUCH MONEY for NCAA is going to matter more than 2 full seasons of winning almost every game for a powerhouse team. Some say it's the best college team ever.

Then you count up all the money he made the NBA from 99-03 with the Kings. The ratings were through the roof. They were the most exciting team in the last 18 years. Also talent for talent they had no business taking the Lakers to 7 games everytime. I see one superstar on the Kings, but two on the Lakers. How did Webber do it?

Not many 6'10 PF's average 21/10/4/2/2 for their 8 year primes. Infact only Barkley and Malone can say they put up stats like that. 4 assist is a lot for a PF that his main job is the "finish the plays with scores".


Kemp will get in too. No one did more in less minutes than this player when he stepped on the floor. Best bench player I ever saw. Averaged 16 and 10 off the bench in the 91-92 season. Not too mention his all over the place hustle on defense. Also the fact that he might just be the most athletic player ever. It's between he Jordan and Dawkins.

Bron > Kobe
01-11-2016, 12:37 PM
Who I think deserves it, definitely not who I think will go in. Whoever sold the most shoes is probably in, which correlates heavily with PPG.

Ben Wallace is one of my favorite players so I'm biased there, but he was better than Rodman and was arguably the best player on his championship team (back to back Finals team too).

Laimbeer was a way bigger part of the Bad Boys than Rodman too, I think it's unfair his backcourt got in but he hasn't. Maybe it's his reputation for being dirty, or for taking the blame for Isaiah's little stunt, but for whatever reason he doesn't get much movement. Doubt he'll ever be in but he was a great 2-way center and it wasn't a coincidence that the Pistons quit being a power once he fell off, even if the guards were early 30s too.
This is a horrible post. My goodness. Wallace better than Rodman??

ewing
01-11-2016, 01:02 PM
Bron > Kobe

My goodness!

tredigs
01-11-2016, 01:20 PM
So one to call which actually made NCAA more popular and made SO MUCH MONEY for NCAA is going to matter more than 2 full seasons of winning almost every game for a powerhouse team. Some say it's the best college team ever.

Then you count up all the money he made the NBA from 99-03 with the Kings. The ratings were through the roof. They were the most exciting team in the last 18 years. Also talent for talent they had no business taking the Lakers to 7 games everytime. I see one superstar on the Kings, but two on the Lakers. How did Webber do it?

Not many 6'10 PF's average 21/10/4/2/2 for their 8 year primes. Infact only Barkley and Malone can say they put up stats like that. 4 assist is a lot for a PF that his main job is the "finish the plays with scores".


Kemp will get in too. No one did more in less minutes than this player when he stepped on the floor. Best bench player I ever saw. Averaged 16 and 10 off the bench in the 91-92 season. Not too mention his all over the place hustle on defense. Also the fact that he might just be the most athletic player ever. It's between he Jordan and Dawkins.

No BuckWilliams, er Marvin Jackson, voters don't care how much money Webber potentially made the NCAA, or about your pseudo Nielson ratings that you hilariously blindly attribute to guys like Webber and Michael Finley. Webber averaged 59 games a year and never made a Finals (whether we think they got hosed or not). He was never top 3 in MVP balloting and made a single All-NBA 1st team. If there was no cloud of stink hovering over his otherwise excellent college career, it would have been enough to push his borderline (but not there) potential HOF pro career over the top, but, there is. It's going to take a very weak cast for Webber to get serious consideration.

Kemp is the poster child for wasted careers. He could and should have been a Hall Of Famer, but absolutely will not be. The day he turned 30 Kemp got fat and let his addictions take over his life. There's no chance he is voted in. What would change voters minds who have consistently brushed him aside already? All the humanitarian work the deadbeat father of 302903 is doing for the world?

MarvinJackson
01-11-2016, 03:05 PM
No BuckWilliams, er Marvin Jackson, voters don't care how much money Webber potentially made the NCAA, or about your pseudo Nielson ratings that you hilariously blindly attribute to guys like Webber and Michael Finley. Webber averaged 59 games a year and never made a Finals (whether we think they got hosed or not). He was never top 3 in MVP balloting and made a single All-NBA 1st team. If there was no cloud of stink hovering over his otherwise excellent college career, it would have been enough to push his borderline (but not there) potential HOF pro career over the top, but, there is. It's going to take a very weak cast for Webber to get serious consideration.

Kemp is the poster child for wasted careers. He could and should have been a Hall Of Famer, but absolutely will not be. The day he turned 30 Kemp got fat and let his addictions take over his life. There's no chance he is voted in. What would change voters minds who have consistently brushed him aside already? All the humanitarian work the deadbeat father of 302903 is doing for the world?

David Thompson is a HOFer too. Also what you're not saying about Kemp is that he did have a career fro mage 20 to 30. That's a long career and more than enough to be in the HOF. Even Jordan when he retired the first time at age 30 was going to be a HOF.

And yes the NBA does care who brought in the fans. Kemp was the reason fans watched the Sonics from 1990-1997. After that no one watched the Sonics. They were a legit contender from 92-97. That's 6 straight seasons and Kemp was their best player. I know the kids that identify more with point guards usually will say Payton, but adult fans know that Kemp was the best player and the main reason they were a contender.

Also more about Kemp. He said he did all he wanted to. He said he was ready to retire in 99 after the lockout. He thought things were getting to political around 2000 with with NBA. Which actually makes Kemp better than the NBA.

Heck I'd even put Larry Jordan in there. Larry Jordan is who taught Michael Jordan and might actually be the best player ever or atleast second best player ever.

Also how many kids Kemp has, has nothing to do with whether he should be in the basketball hall of fame or not. So keep your personal biases out of it.

MarvinJackson
01-11-2016, 03:07 PM
Anyone who is the best player on a team that wins 70% of their games over a 6 year time and wins about 30 playoff games in that time in a GREAT conference should be in the HALL OF FAME.

I only look at wins and Kemp was a winner in his career.. The Hall of Fame only looks at wins aswell, unless you're someone like Marcilonus and from Europe.

MarvinJackson
01-11-2016, 03:18 PM
of the players today I don't see many Hall of Famers.

Nash because of longevity which is a dumb reason though. Nash was never the impact player that Kemp was.
Billups to me isn't a HOF but he'll probably get in.
Dirk
Garnett
Duncan
Parker because of longevity and from Europe.
Ginobili who never had one season as good as Kemp but because from Argentina will make it.
Lebron because he shoots everytime and was hyped from the beginning
Kobe because of his prime from 20-32. only like 2 more years than Kemp



I say no on McGrady, Carmelo, just because you're a volume shooter doesnt' mean you should make the HOF. You got to win some playoff rounds in my book. Especially being in the easy east. no to Amare. not part of enough wins or playoff wins in his career. Also inconsistent although do to injury.

CarolinaCDM
01-11-2016, 03:44 PM
ai, c-webb and ben wallace should not be in the hof.

All were inefficient shooters.

you should be shot

ewing
01-11-2016, 03:47 PM
you should be shot

that's not nice

MarvinJackson
01-11-2016, 03:51 PM
He should be shot for thinking that Webber shouldn't be in the HOF.

Webber would be the best player in the NBA today. James isn't as strong.

valade16
01-11-2016, 04:04 PM
you should be shot

With AI's shooting %, if he tried to shoot me he'd miss...


He should be shot for thinking that Webber shouldn't be in the HOF.

Webber would be the best player in the NBA today. James isn't as strong.

Over Steph Curry? Or Kevin Durant? Or LeBron James? Or Kawhi Leonard?

CarolinaCDM
01-11-2016, 04:09 PM
He should be shot for thinking that Webber shouldn't be in the HOF.

Webber would be the best player in the NBA today. James isn't as strong.

You must have rode the short bus to school SMDH

1) I CLEARLY highlighted "AI" before I made my comment
2) C-Webb wouldnt even be top 20...STOP IT

MarvinJackson
01-11-2016, 04:14 PM
With AI's shooting %, if he tried to shoot me he'd miss...



Over Steph Curry? Or Kevin Durant? Or LeBron James? Or Kawhi Leonard?

6-10 260 7'4 wingspan. Passed like Magic Johnson. Rebounded like Rodman, blocked shots like Hakeem, stole the ball like MJ, ran the break and finished like Kemp.

Led his team to 60 wins every year during his prime.

Averaged 25, 12, 5, 2, 2, on 50% during his prime and was the best player on his team. Took Prime Shaq to game 7 and the last shot.

valade16
01-11-2016, 04:23 PM
6-10 260 7'4 wingspan. Passed like Magic Johnson. Rebounded like Rodman, blocked shots like Hakeem, stole the ball like MJ, ran the break and finished like Kemp.

Led his team to 60 wins every year during his prime.

Averaged 25, 12, 5, 2, 2, on 50% during his prime and was the best player on his team. Took Prime Shaq to game 7 and the last shot.

Literally did none of those things. He also never averaged 2.0 SPG and only averaged 2.0+ BPG twice and shot 50%+ 3 times.

His prime was closer to:

24 PPG | 11 RPG | 5 APG | 1.5 SPG | 1.5 BPG | 48% FG

MarvinJackson
01-11-2016, 04:37 PM
exactly. He did that for his prime and only 6 players in NBA history have even done it for one season.

the list includes

David Robinson
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Chris Webber
Charles Barkley
Kevin Garnett
Karl Malone

valade16
01-11-2016, 04:46 PM
exactly. He did that for his prime and only 6 players in NBA history have even done it for one season.

the list includes

David Robinson
Kareem Abdul Jabbar
Chris Webber
Charles Barkley
Kevin Garnett
Karl Malone

LeBron's prime was:

29 PPG | 7.5 RPG | 7.5 APG | 1.5 SPG | 1.0 BPG | 50% FG

The only other guy to do that was MJ. So... Bron is better.

MarvinJackson
01-11-2016, 04:55 PM
LeBron's prime was:

29 PPG | 7.5 RPG | 7.5 APG | 1.5 SPG | 1.0 BPG | 50% FG

The only other guy to do that was MJ. So... Bron is better.

Do you dare me to list Webber's career stats so you can see that maybe no other PF in NBA history put up that kind of production.

one thing about Lebrat. he doesn't really play a team game, He plays iso ball like Carmelo so his stats will look good to the person that doesnt' understand basketball.


20.7 ppg 9.8 rebs 4.2 ast 1.4 stls 1.4 blks 48%

Webber played a team game and here is his career stats. Also Webber won more games in the NBA and also played against a league that was 10 times as good.

you think LeBron is the best passer every right. Well he has the ball on the perimeter 900% more than Webber and only managed to average 2.5 more assists per game. Not much really

valade16
01-11-2016, 05:07 PM
Do you dare me to list Webber's career stats so you can see that maybe no other PF in NBA history put up that kind of production.

one thing about Lebrat. he doesn't really play a team game, He plays iso ball like Carmelo so his stats will look good to the person that doesnt' understand basketball.

20.7 ppg 9.8 rebs 4.2 ast 1.4 stls 1.4 blks 48%

Webber played a team game and here is his career stats. Also Webber won more games in the NBA and also played against a league that was 10 times as good.

you think LeBron is the best passer every right. Well he has the ball on the perimeter 900% more than Webber and only managed to average 2.5 more assists per game. Not much really

First Bolded: He doesn't play a team game yet won championships while C-Webb never did.

Second Bolded: LeBron has actually won more games in the NBA than C-Webb.

Third Bolded: I don't think LeBron is the "best passer ever", but he is a better passer than C-Webb. And a better scorer, and a better defender, and a better everything except for rebounder actually.

MarvinJackson
01-11-2016, 05:16 PM
First Bolded: He doesn't play a team game yet won championships while C-Webb never did.

Second Bolded: LeBron has actually won more games in the NBA than C-Webb.

Third Bolded: I don't think LeBron is the "best passer ever", but he is a better passer than C-Webb. And a better scorer, and a better defender, and a better everything except for rebounder actually.


You were doing well, but then you started up the schnide comments. We already went through this 100 times.

Webber never had a HOF team mate and actually played in a good league with HOF players like Shaq, Robinson, Hakeem, Mourning, Kemp, Barkley, Malone and that's just the post players.


Give Prime Webber, Wade, Riley, Miller, Allen, Love, Irving, and probably will join with Durant in a year or so.

It's not the same. Webber played by himself and won 60 games more than LeBron has. Also Webber was playing against SHAQ while James was playing against Danny the gay granger. It's not the same.

MarvinJackson
01-11-2016, 05:22 PM
C-Webb was a better passer. Infact for every PF ever C-webb is number one in assist. C-webb could throw behind the back passes and lobs. LeBron can't do either one of those.

Also Webber was way better because he played defense and could play center. Also he could block shots and alter opponents shots while LeBron can't. ALSO, he got extra possessions for his teams by being a great offensive rebounder. That's like averaging 4 more steals. he already averaged almost 2 steals much of his carer now add the 4 offensive rebounds. he was really helping his team win. lebrat can't get offensive rebounds infact is probably the worst most lazy player ever when it comes to that.

Put Webber on the perimeter all game and have him play iso ball the entire game and he'd average 30 points, 11 rebounds 8 assist and 2 steals.

None of lebrons' teams would've ever beat any of those great Kings teams led by Webber. Webber beats LeBron.

Also if they were both rookies the same year, Webber is going number 1 and you know it.

It's not even close

C-Webb was the bigger better athlete, much stronger, could play every position on the floor, could anchor a defense at the rim, could grab all the offensive rebounds everygame, could get steals and blocks. could average 30 in the post if you asked him to. Better dunker and brought more toughness. wasnt' a flopper like lebrat.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2016, 05:49 PM
I don't know who this labrat guy you keep talking about is, but you know who is better than Webber?

LeBron James

valade16
01-11-2016, 05:49 PM
You were doing well, but then you started up the schnide comments. We already went through this 100 times.

Webber never had a HOF team mate and actually played in a good league with HOF players like Shaq, Robinson, Hakeem, Mourning, Kemp, Barkley, Malone and that's just the post players.

Give Prime Webber, Wade, Riley, Miller, Allen, Love, Irving, and probably will join with Durant in a year or so.

It's not the same. Webber played by himself and won 60 games more than LeBron has. Also Webber was playing against SHAQ while James was playing against Danny the gay granger. It's not the same.

Yo, what are you talking about?! Webber's cast was way better than Bron's!

Peja > Wade
Vlade > Bosh
Christie > Allen
Bibby > Chalmers
Hedo > Haslem

Webber played with legit 5 other stars while Bron played with scrubs. Bosh did nothing with Toronto and Wade was carried by Shaq to a title.

Hawkeye15
01-11-2016, 05:52 PM
Yo, what are you talking about?! Webber's cast was way better than Bron's!

Peja > Wade
Vlade > Bosh
Christie > Allen
Bibby > Chalmers
Hedo > Haslem

Webber played with legit 5 other stars while Bron played with scrubs. Bosh did nothing with Toronto and Wade was carried by Shaq to a title.

the only reason Wade had such a high PER in his 2006 finals run was because Shaq loaned him a bunch of his

MarvinJackson
01-11-2016, 06:06 PM
So now Peja is better than Dwyane Wade on this site? ok. Wade only averaged 27 a game in the 11 Finals while he was trying his best to carry lebrat at 18 ppg.

tredigs
01-12-2016, 11:25 AM
Can a mod tell me what poster buckwilliams/Marvin was before this screen name? Trying to figure out if he is an eccentric troll or truly this hilariously clueless.