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KnicksorBust
01-09-2016, 08:34 AM
Demarcus Cousins
Brook Lopez
Al Jefferson
Jhalil Okafor
Greg Monroe

The modern game is phasing out the traditional back to the basket big. The Gasols can play out of both posts. Horford is shooting 3's. Towns and Porzingis play on the perimeter. Guys like Drummond and Jordan have found success but not by turning their back to the hoop and backing players down. It is a pick and roll league and they dive to the basket better than any other two. Which leades me to my question:

Do you believe that with this current set of rules and playing styles that a team can be built around a low post player?

ewing
01-09-2016, 09:04 AM
The team with the 2nd best record in the league starts two traditional post up bigs and backs them up with two traditional post up bigs.

KnicksorBust
01-09-2016, 10:18 AM
The team with the 2nd best record in the league starts two traditional post up bigs and backs them up with two traditional post up bigs.

Duncan doesn't even get 10ppg anymore. And LMA has always been a jump shooting big. Plus the idea that the Spurs system is based on post -ups on the block is just wrong. They are all ball movement - off ball screens - cuts - pnr.

STRIKERC
01-09-2016, 10:49 AM
Demarcus Cousins
Brook Lopez
Al Jefferson
Jhalil Okafor
Greg Monroe

The modern game is phasing out the traditional back to the basket big. The Gasols can play out of both posts. Horford is shooting 3's. Towns and Porzingis play on the perimeter. Guys like Drummond and Jordan have found success but not by turning their back to the hoop and backing players down. It is a pick and roll league and they dive to the basket better than any other two. Which leades me to my question:

Do you believe that with this current set of rules and playing styles that a team can be built around a low post player?

OK, Porzingis is the GOAT. We hear you, Knicks fans. Can we move on now?

kdspurman
01-09-2016, 11:43 AM
Duncan doesn't even get 10ppg anymore. And LMA has always been a jump shooting big. Plus the idea that the Spurs system is based on post -ups on the block is just wrong. They are all ball movement - off ball screens - cuts - pnr.

It depends on the matchup. The other night against Utah, Duncan/West were doing a lot in the post. LMA this year has done a lot of work in the post, far from just a jump shooter. He is strong and uses his body well down there. Kawhi of course is a very good post guy and that fade-away is like money now, and Diaw posts up just about every game cause he's always got some sort of mis-match.BTW, Duncan may not average a lot of points, but his post ups have lead to other things happening at times. But @ this point, Pop is resting him often and going to other guys. Big picture in mind

Posting up is just another element included in their system. And depending on the opponent, one they will go to often if needed. It's a flexible system, and there have been several nights they just pounded teams in the paint by posting up.

I do think your offense has to be diverse enough though and not reliant on it, unless your defense is crazy good

BuckWilliams
01-09-2016, 12:55 PM
The Best team in the NBA starts two great post up players and even Leonard is the best post up forward. They are breaking records against this league by beating teams by 15 points per game.

The three point game isn't something that is good to rely on. It allows great teams to run out and get easy dunks.

Post players can give you open looks every where if you use them right. Only San Antonio uses their post players right. Also Cleveland was trying to use theirs sometimes the right way.

Sandman
01-09-2016, 01:08 PM
Cousins and Lopez jack up mid range shots and probably play too much on the perimeter

Monroe is good but doesn't play defense. Lopez is hit or miss, and Jahlil hasn't figured that out yet (if he ever will).

Al Jefferson is a great player on a bad team. So is Cousins but he needs to rein it in a little bit.

There are a lot of ways to win. The only way you do it is by playing your style better than the other team plays theirs.

ewing
01-09-2016, 01:11 PM
Duncan doesn't even get 10ppg anymore. And LMA has always been a jump shooting big. Plus the idea that the Spurs system is based on post -ups on the block is just wrong. They are all ball movement - off ball screens - cuts - pnr.

So is your question is it a good i idea to post up one player over and over again every play in same spot. No its not. The Spurs start 3 players that get post catches and have 2 big off the bench that get post catches. It seems like you want to be able to have these absolutes so the game can be something you can figure out on paper but its still played on the floor. have rule changes and improved shooting made the post game less prevalent? Yes but the absolutes you are looking for dont exist

Gander13SM
01-09-2016, 01:43 PM
I think all it takes is one truly dominant big man to enter the league again, like an Olajuwon or a Shaq. And everything will change.

Until then. This is it.

The next step/stage of evolution for basketball isn't small ball or guys like Dray, perimeter players who become adept at guarding big men. It's a big man who is capable of defending the perimeter, we're starting to see that but eventually we will have an Olajuwon type big man who is capable of defending perimeter players. At that point it becomes a big mans game again.

To answer the actual question, yes. I do think you can build a team around a low post star. But you need a guy that can also pass from the post. He needs a guard that's elite at running pick and roll and you need to surround them with 3 and D guys. So the big man can kick it out for 3s.

Something like the Clippers back court with the Warriors front court.

Say...

CP3, J.J Redick, Harrison Barnes, Draymond Green, DeMarcus Cousins.

You could definitely have Cousins handle the bulk of that offense.

Although it's worth noting Cousins has developed a decent shot. He's not really an exclusive back to the basket guy.

By using a back to the basket guy you're limiting yourself. The more offensive tools a player has the better an offensive player he is. It would be better if Al Jefferson could hit 3s.

5ass
01-09-2016, 01:57 PM
http://bballbreakdown.com/2015/11/nik-vucevic-modern-post/

LOb0
01-09-2016, 02:10 PM
Demarcus Cousins
Brook Lopez
Al Jefferson
Jhalil Okafor
Greg Monroe


lmao at these examples. Those are borderline/below All-star level guys on average or below average teams. Not sure why Okafor is even on that list. Philly is trying to lose.

If an elite level post player was in the league you could absolutely win games. Imagine if prime Shaq was in the league right now. No one would even have a clue what to do.

Gander13SM
01-09-2016, 02:14 PM
http://bballbreakdown.com/2015/11/nik-vucevic-modern-post/

Good to see the team at breakdown agree with me that defenses are more complex now.

Great read. Thanks for the link.

flea
01-09-2016, 02:29 PM
Post game still very much alive - all the good offensive teams go to it at times to keep defenses honest. It's true that it's downplayed to a significant degree because of ultra-friendly ballhandler/traveling rules and shot clocks. Most of the mid-tier and bad teams play P&R almost all the time and it's boring. I think it's more that a post game takes a lot of skill and AAU doesn't instill it than it is that it's useless to mid-tier teams. Look at who has functional ones and it's always savvy vets who have learned how to stick in the league - Shaun Livingston, Andre Miller (when he was playing), Nene, Diaw, etc.

I'm a Pels fan but I just don't really like watching them unless it's a good matchup because it's hey diddle diddle send that guard down the middle and watch a kickout or fumbled layup. Davis is a very good P&R big and outlet guy but he could straight dominate offensively if he'd work in the low and high post more. His numbers look fine minus the games missed but he really isn't as impactful on either end of the floor as he could be, and his teammates aren't as bad as they get blamed for.

SLY WILLIAMS
01-09-2016, 02:53 PM
The NBA adjusted their rules so changes in the game are not shocking. There used to be a lot more guys that were good at feeding the post correctly than are in the NBA today. The rules combined with lack of post feeders has led to a lot of turnovers when teams post up too much. Still it is best to have at least some sort of post game for balance. I think the teams listed would be even worse teams without their post players. There are also plenty of bad teams without post players. The Spurs did adjust their game plan as Timmy aged but if they did not have any post presence they would have a lot less wide open shots. The main change is teams used to use the outside shooters to open up the post plays. Now teams find it easier to use the post to open up the outside shots.

Sandman
01-09-2016, 03:00 PM
lmao at these examples. Those are borderline/below All-star level guys on average or below average teams. Not sure why Okafor is even on that list. Philly is trying to lose.

If an elite level post player was in the league you could absolutely win games. Imagine if prime Shaq was in the league right now. No one would even have a clue what to do.

This -- small ball is not here because it is better or faster, it's here because nobody can go big.

The game is evolving for sure, but I wouldn't say it's 'new and improved,' it's just adapting to the talent pool.

The Lakers did it not very long ago. The Heat were stacked everywhere but C. I can't say the Spurs did it with guard play, it revolves around Duncan. Even Dwight in Orlando got a lot accomplished before he went diva.

D-Leethal
01-09-2016, 03:08 PM
Correlation doesn't imply causation. And you have to find reasons to ignore the great teams that do feed the post to paint the black and white picture you are looking for.

STRIKERC
01-09-2016, 03:15 PM
OP is looking for reasons to support his theory that Porzingis is the model for how basketball is to be played.

warfelg
01-09-2016, 03:37 PM
Post game is still well and alive. There just aren't as many big men with a competent enough post game.

mngopher35
01-09-2016, 04:28 PM
With the way todays game works you need to also be able to pass well out of the post if you get a lot of touches there. This has kinda been true always but IMO is more necessary today. When people mention spurs with Duncan/West/Aldridge/Diaw they get a lot of spacing and passing from those guys too which is why it works so well for them. Players who generally post up and don't offer many other qualities will be more limited since it's easier to send help and pack the paint around them.

I think there is more value now in spacing/defense than good post play but that doesn't mean you can't build around the right type of post player if he is out there. The one dimensional one's will get phased out more so than the past I think though due to these changes.

Chronz
01-09-2016, 04:34 PM
Demarcus Cousins
Brook Lopez
Al Jefferson
Jhalil Okafor
Greg Monroe

The modern game is phasing out the traditional back to the basket big. The Gasols can play out of both posts. Horford is shooting 3's. Towns and Porzingis play on the perimeter. Guys like Drummond and Jordan have found success but not by turning their back to the hoop and backing players down. It is a pick and roll league and they dive to the basket better than any other two. Which leades me to my question:

Do you believe that with this current set of rules and playing styles that a team can be built around a low post player?

I would focus on the offensive results of their teams because the biggest issue with these bigmen is that they tend to suck defensively, all with the exception of Cousins, none have displayed the ability to anchor a defense. In Cousins case, hes played in a grueling conference and has had mediocre teammates. Even now, his best players fail to stretch the floor for him, he provides it for them but his best season came when he was a load down low. Sadly, having Rondo has always stunted post touches for his front court teammates, if Cousins were to have George Hill as a teammate, or even a Mike Conley, he would be getting all the post touches he required. PG's are so important to the makeup of a team because they are so varied in skillsets.

warfelg
01-09-2016, 04:52 PM
I would focus on the offensive results of their teams because the biggest issue with these bigmen is that they tend to suck defensively, all with the exception of Cousins, none have displayed the ability to anchor a defense. In Cousins case, hes played in a grueling conference and has had mediocre teammates. Even now, his best players fail to stretch the floor for him, he provides it for them but his best season came when he was a load down low. Sadly, having Rondo has always stunted post touches for his front court teammates, if Cousins were to have George Hill as a teammate, or even a Mike Conley, he would be getting all the post touches he required. PG's are so important to the makeup of a team because they are so varied in skillsets.

Agreed, because most the NBA's post talents play with some horribly constructed teams.

BuckWilliams
01-09-2016, 04:55 PM
pg's don't know how to use a post player. First of all they take a poor angle the 3 times an entire game they try to feed the post. They might give a post player 1 try and he may even make the post shot, but then they won't ever come back to them because they think they've passed to them enough for the week.

But also they take such a poor angle to feed the post that it's easy for defenses to front or side the post man and cheat over to play the passing lane with their arm. Also they sometimes double team anything in the post even before the pass is thrown. The problem here is that the point guards today aren't smart enough hto realize that, the advantage has been had. They don't see the double of the post before the pass and then go ahead and take advantage of it. Instead they give look like "this isn't working" and kind of stear the look at their coach. "Like coach why do I have to try to feed the post " The truth is that 80% of the point gaurds in the NBA today have no idea how to play basketball and just want "theirs" everytime down the court.

Cause if the post player is being doubled before the pass not only can you still get him the ball if you move the ball baseline. It's really bad for the defense to double on the baseline because it leaves the entire court open. But not only that, but you could find the open man OR take up slack in the defense and bury the 16 footer everytime to keep the defenses honest. Defenses aren't honest anymore because there isn't a pg in the NBA besides Parker that can hit the mid range shot off the dribble or not off the dribble.

the defenses don't respect these pg's They know most of them in the NBA today are shooting about 42% and take wild shots. While a post player even an average one honestly scores or gets fouled about 65% of the time. That is a high % but that it how post plays work out usually. Especially in the 90's. The refs would get them to the line. That's one other thing I've noticed about the NBA. The refs are told not to reward post players as much. The league will give every single pg 7 free throws when he's not even fouled.

But still a post play is about 60% While a pg chucking up something or trying to drive is like 40% for these point gaurds. Yet they keep shooting.

It's coaching.

San Antonio is good and GS is good. Leonard is making a lot of the plays for SA and wants to feed guys in the key the wright way. Green gets the ball off the pick and roll and makes plays out of it.

flea
01-09-2016, 04:59 PM
^ I agree PG play has some to do with it too. Many PGs now are really slashing SGs with PG size. A good big can get his own, but a good PG can make it so much easier. Most PGs just learn the P&R and then run with it, and since they've been scorers their whole lives they don't really understand passing angles beyond kickouts and dumpoffs.

JasonJohnHorn
01-09-2016, 05:05 PM
No rule is universal in basketball.

In the 3-ball era, you don't want to run your offensive exclusively through a big, but if you have somebody who shoots over .500 in the paint, demands a double team, and can pass out of the double team, THAT is a GREAT piece to have.


Al Jefferson, you might forget, helped the Bobcats get into the playoffs with his post game.

DMC's issue isn't his post game, it's Sac-Town's lack of 3-ballers and a HEAVY reliance on a guy who shoots UNDER .500

BK and Philly are tanking.... not really fair... you might as well say that the 3-ball is ineffective because some lottery teams have outside shooters are primary options.


The Spurs have LMA and Duncan in the post, and they have the second best record in the league, and are on pace for the third best record in NBA history. They ALSO have 3-ballers..... use a post player who commands the double team with long-range bombers, you got a winning combo. Use one exclusively, you lose.


You can't have to heavy a reliance on post play, yes, but having a good post player will always help.

Chronz
01-09-2016, 05:13 PM
^ I agree PG play has some to do with it too. Many PGs now are really slashing SGs with PG size. A good big can get his own, but a good PG can make it so much easier. Most PGs just learn the P&R and then run with it, and since they've been scorers their whole lives they don't really understand passing angles beyond kickouts and dumpoffs.

Thats why when Yao Ming was asked to name the biggest influential factors in improving his game, he named Tmac among them. Instantly I thought of his elite post entree passes, at 6"8 with length, there wasn't an angle on the court he couldn't deliver it to Yao. It was almost Magic to Kareem like, except in a tougher era for post players.

BuckWilliams
01-09-2016, 05:16 PM
And there are a lot of selfish sg's in the NBA today too. Not too mention the SG position is the worst it's probably ever been.

And with the way the rules are. I think it would maybe even be easier to feed a good post player "at the rim". I'd work the angles and probably go to the corner and then feed a high pass towards the rim after the post player has sealed the defender cheating on the high side. And the passer is a big part of that infact maybe 60% of that situation. The passer has to sell that he's going to the post player in the post and act as though he's going to force it on the high side then quickly dribble baseline or to the corner more atleast about 10 feet while the post man sills the defender on the high side. Then it's nothing but open space in the key and at the rim. What the passer has to do then is make a good pass leading the post player towards the rim and keep it high. Don't lead it too much because that gives too much chance to the help defense. So it's a lot the passer. I've learned a lot of this. I'm a post player and a point guard.
But it's also this other thing I'll talk about. you have to act as though you're going to force it in to the post because if the defense comes across early on the weak side then, YOU HAVE TO MAKE THEM PAY!!! YOU have to motion a SG to the Free throw line and pass him the ball quickly while he's moving towards the hoop and you'll have the angle for that because you're on the side line. you want to pass to an Athlete moving strong to the hoop that will dunk, make a good move or bury a 15 footer all day. There are not SG's like that today. ONLY 1. you know who he is.

Gaurds don't make the opponents defense PAY! now days. Nor have they been taught this, but also none of them no how to move off the ball toward the rim and look for a catch and then make a STRONG move!. That is what makes them PAY!!!!

Then Your post player is wide open the rest of the game.

BuckWilliams
01-09-2016, 05:24 PM
All the players do today with the exception of a few winners is just throw the ball around the horn all game and take turns taking slighty contested threes, in hopes they can just win that way. It work half and half. Cause the other team about the same skill level is doing the same thing. What it also does is make for a ton of 9 points games and NO 1 points games hardly anymore in the NBA today. because one team will be "on" from three somewhat or just atleast a bit better than the other team so maybe 35% on threes while shooting about 50 of them and the other team might be off that night but their dumb coach just tells them to keep shooting the same 26 footers.

The coaching in the NBA is the worst it's ever been.

Chronz
01-09-2016, 05:33 PM
And there are a lot of selfish sg's in the NBA today too. Not too mention the SG position is the worst it's probably ever been.

And with the way the rules are. I think it would maybe even be easier to feed a good post player "at the rim". I'd work the angles and probably go to the corner and then feed a high pass towards the rim after the post player has sealed the defender cheating on the high side. And the passer is a big part of that infact maybe 60% of that situation. The passer has to sell that he's going to the post player in the post and act as though he's going to force it on the high side then quickly dribble baseline or to the corner more atleast about 10 feet while the post man sills the defender on the high side. Then it's nothing but open space in the key and at the rim. What the passer has to do then is make a good pass leading the post player towards the rim and keep it high. Don't lead it too much because that gives too much chance to the help defense. So it's a lot the passer. I've learned a lot of this. I'm a post player and a point guard. I play like Charles Barkley or something.
But it's also this other thing I'll talk about. you have to act as though you're going to force it in to the post because if the defense comes across early on the weak side then, YOU HAVE TO MAKE THEM PAY!!! YOU have to motion a SG to the Free throw line and pass him the ball quickly while he's moving towards the hoop and you'll have the angle for that because you're on the side line. you want to pass to an Athlete moving strong to the hoop that will dunk, make a good move or bury a 15 footer all day. There are not SG's like that today. ONLY 1. you know who he is. Maybe another but he's like 34 and acts too cool all the time.

Gaurds don't make the opponents defense PAY! now days. Nor have they been taught this, but also none of them no how to move off the ball toward the rim and look for a catch and then make a STRONG move!. That is what makes them PAY!!!!

Then Your post player is wide open the rest of the game.

No its definitely not easier to feed post players today. Zone sandwiches can be applied at will today, those were deemed illegal in the 90's/80's if it was blatant (which it would be since players had to be within arms reach of off the ball players). Back then you could clear out 1 side of the floor much easier, today if you want to run a post play, it has to be masked within the PnR/Floppy set, you need some kind of divergent set to take attention away from the obvious intention of the post up. Then that post up guy has to be an adept passer and quick hitter to be on par with what the older era had. Its doable, but taxing.

BuckWilliams
01-09-2016, 05:46 PM
No its definitely not easier to feed post players today. Zone sandwiches can be applied at will today, those were deemed illegal in the 90's/80's if it was blatant (which it would be since players had to be within arms reach of off the ball players). Back then you could clear out 1 side of the floor much easier, today if you want to run a post play, it has to be masked within the PnR/Floppy set, you need some kind of divergent set to take attention away from the obvious intention of the post up. Then that post up guy has to be an adept passer and quick hitter to be on par with what the older era had. Its doable, but taxing.

It's more than doable. College basketball they feed the post all the time and they're allowed to camp in the lane on defense there.

It's easy. The entire lane is wide open. players today just don't know how to pass inside to a post player. If their pass isn't featured on a ally oop they won't even bother making a pass today. The NBA players today can't cheat over from the help side to the middle of the key in the lower defensive box like you could in the 90's You could cheat over to the middle all day. Even if the player you were guarding on the help side was all the way out 16 feet from the hoop. Also back then players would all pack the key on defense. you were allowed to back off your player all the way down to the defensive box. Only if your player was at the three point line then you had to be out of the lane and could only go there for 2.9 seconds, but often the refs never called anything especially in the playoffs.

You can pass the ball into the hoop area on a nice angle, like you said. Although I am for widening the court about 4 feet. Phil Jackson has said this to. 4-5 feet. Also for pushing the three point line back about 2 feet everywhere. Also allowing any kind of defense one wants to play and maybe even allow an offensive player to stand in the lane for a long 5 second count. Or possibly even a long 8 second count.

Do away with the semi circle under the hoop and just allow defenders to stand where ever they want.

The game would be so much better.

They still feed the post in college though and that is a zone defense and a true zone.

Sadds The Gr8
01-10-2016, 04:11 AM
ppl are calling duncan a postup big? wtf?

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 02:40 PM
Duncan is a post up player.

JasonJohnHorn
01-10-2016, 02:47 PM
Post players... who would want to build around somebody like Anthony Davis, or Tim Duncan, or Blake Griffin.

It's just silly.

STRIKERC
01-10-2016, 02:54 PM
ppl are calling duncan a postup big? wtf?

What is he, a stretch big?
Duncan is a classic example of the successful post big people are talking about here. He doesn't live in the paint but he developed a midrange shot, and he has shooters and slashers all around him to complement each other.
That's a well assembled team.

Do i want my big guy to camp outside the 3 line? Hell no!
I want them to destroy people in the interior.

Sadds The Gr8
01-10-2016, 02:56 PM
What is he, a stretch big?
No, but that doesn't mean he's a post-up player either. Hasn't been in years.

kozelkid
01-10-2016, 02:56 PM
Lazy analysis.
In the end of the day, it's about the diversity of the offense. If you're a predictable black hole like some of those players listed, then yes, it's bad for your offense and makes it easy for the opposing defense to game plan and defend against you.
On the other hand, if you're an unselfish player who uses post game sparingly and is willing to pass out, then it can still be very useful (see: Duncan, prime Gasol) or else if you're an unstoppable force like Shaq.
Post play isn't as valuable as it once was, but saying that it has no use is asinine. Then again, OP has a history of saying crazy statements for attention (see: "Hinkie is a genius")

Sadds The Gr8
01-10-2016, 02:56 PM
Duncan is a post up player.
He barely posts up anymore.

nycericanguy
01-10-2016, 03:05 PM
He barely posts up anymore.

in his hay day he was in the post though, no one would suggest building around a 40 year old Duncan!...lol.

I dont think its that you cant win with post players, the guys you listed are poor defensively. that's the bigger issue.

These days teams really just start one traditional big, even MEM moved Zbo to the bench. So really you need that ONE big to be able to defend and protect the rim. It's much harder to "hide" a poor defensive big these days.

thats why im really interested to see what happens with Okafor, he's the best post player to come along in a loooong time, but will that be enough to overcome his poor defense?

You see PHI has a good defender in Noel, but starting two bigs just doesn't work these days. Noel & Okafor are just getting in each others way and PHI is better with one of them on the bench, usually Okafor despite his offense.

STRIKERC
01-10-2016, 03:06 PM
He barely posts up anymore.

Dude, Duncan is still very much a post player.
He doesn't bang in the paint like big Al but he's a guy that does most of his damage in the painted area.
You know what's silly? Having a dominant big like Cousins believe he needs a 3 point shot to be elite.

Sadds The Gr8
01-10-2016, 03:07 PM
in his hay day he was in the post though, no one would suggest building around a 40 year old Duncan!...lol.

I dont think its that you cant win with post players, the guys you listed are poor defensively. that's the bigger issue.

These days teams really just start one traditional big, even MEM moved Zbo to the bench. So really you need that ONE big to be able to defend and protect the rim. It's much harder to "hide" a poor defensive big these days.

Definitely was in his prime. I'm talking about now tho.

STRIKERC
01-10-2016, 03:09 PM
Definitely was in his prime. I'm talking about now tho.

He still is.

Sadds The Gr8
01-10-2016, 03:09 PM
Dude, Duncan is still very much a post player.
He doesn't bang in the paint like big Al but he's a guy that does most of his damage in the painted area.
You know what's silly? Having a dominant big like Cousins believe he needs a 3 point shot to be elite.
If I wasn't watching the nfl playoff game I'd look up the #s, but from what I've watched and heard, he barely posts up nowdays. You can do damage in the paint w/o being a post up player.

flea
01-10-2016, 03:26 PM
If I wasn't watching the nfl playoff game I'd look up the #s, but from what I've watched and heard, he barely posts up nowdays. You can do damage in the paint w/o being a post up player.

I've watched probably 90% of the Spurs games this year, and while you could just look at his PPG to see he's not getting very many touches anymore he does still get post-ups. Sometimes it's one or two towards the end of the half, sometimes it's a lot more depending on the matchup. I've seen some games where he gets 1 or none but more often than not he's getting a few touches in low. But the Spurs have played a lot of blowouts, and often he doesn't even play at all in the 4th quarter and is averaging like 20 MPG.

Wait till the postseason, he'll still do it if his team needs it. Did it last year vs. Deandre Jordan and the Clips and was the only reason that series went 7, and did the year before closing out OKC vs. Ibaka. If the team needs it he'll still do it. I think he's still a more reliable low-post man than Aldridge, who is good but likes to pump fake and settle for awkward hookshots rather than being decisive like Duncan.

pebloemer
01-10-2016, 03:46 PM
Getting high percentage shots in the post should always remain an asset for any winning team. Unfortunately many of the names mentioned by the OP don't really pass the ball out of the post very well.

KnicksorBust
01-10-2016, 03:59 PM
It depends on the matchup. The other night against Utah, Duncan/West were doing a lot in the post. LMA this year has done a lot of work in the post, far from just a jump shooter. He is strong and uses his body well down there. Kawhi of course is a very good post guy and that fade-away is like money now, and Diaw posts up just about every game cause he's always got some sort of mis-match.BTW, Duncan may not average a lot of points, but his post ups have lead to other things happening at times. But @ this point, Pop is resting him often and going to other guys. Big picture in mind

Posting up is just another element included in their system. And depending on the opponent, one they will go to often if needed. It's a flexible system, and there have been several nights they just pounded teams in the paint by posting up.

I do think your offense has to be diverse enough though and not reliant on it, unless your defense is crazy good

But this is exactly my point. They don't rely on one player anymore to back people down. Even their post-ups are predicated on ball movement and off ball screens. The high school team that I coach actually runs 3 of the spurs sets in games and even post-ups are spread around based on match-up and start with some type of flex or back screen. Based on my premise I don't see the Spurs as the counter argument at all.

KnicksorBust
01-10-2016, 04:02 PM
I think all it takes is one truly dominant big man to enter the league again, like an Olajuwon or a Shaq. And everything will change.

Until then. This is it.

The next step/stage of evolution for basketball isn't small ball or guys like Dray, perimeter players who become adept at guarding big men. It's a big man who is capable of defending the perimeter, we're starting to see that but eventually we will have an Olajuwon type big man who is capable of defending perimeter players. At that point it becomes a big mans game again.

To answer the actual question, yes. I do think you can build a team around a low post star. But you need a guy that can also pass from the post. He needs a guard that's elite at running pick and roll and you need to surround them with 3 and D guys. So the big man can kick it out for 3s.

Something like the Clippers back court with the Warriors front court.

Say...

CP3, J.J Redick, Harrison Barnes, Draymond Green, DeMarcus Cousins.

You could definitely have Cousins handle the bulk of that offense.

Although it's worth noting Cousins has developed a decent shot. He's not really an exclusive back to the basket guy.

By using a back to the basket guy you're limiting yourself. The more offensive tools a player has the better an offensive player he is. It would be better if Al Jefferson could hit 3s.

This post is one of my main issues of my OP. There is no doubt Shaq will still be first team all-nba and a HoF no matter what era you placed him in. But one of my arguments is that this current era would be the most challenging for him to be as successful. I also think over the course of the last 60-70 years using examples like Shaq and Hakeem are the 1% of examples and prove exactly why it would be so hard to have a traditional post-up player be your focal point. Since the overwhelming majority of big men either aren't talented enough to play that way or have adapted their games.

KnicksorBust
01-10-2016, 04:07 PM
lmao at these examples. Those are borderline/below All-star level guys on average or below average teams. Not sure why Okafor is even on that list. Philly is trying to lose..

I picked 5 of the highest scoring low-post players in the league. Obviously there are many factors at play here but I thought it was interesting that all of their teams are underachieving. I don't see it as a coincidence. I believe big men entering the league now need to be more versatile. I don't see the league reverting back unless they drastically change the rules. IE: Move back the 3pt line, allow hand-check, etc.

ewing
01-10-2016, 04:09 PM
But this is exactly my point. They don't rely on one player anymore to back people down. Even their post-ups are predicated on ball movement and off ball screens. The high school team that I coach actually runs 3 of the spurs sets in games and even post-ups are spread around based on match-up and start with some type of flex or back screen. Based on my premise I don't see the Spurs as the counter argument at all.

then you point is common sense. clearing out of a post up big to go one on one from the same spots on the floor every time down is not an ideal offensive game plan. Just like clearly out of one wing slasher very time down in the same spot.

KnicksorBust
01-10-2016, 04:10 PM
I would focus on the offensive results of their teams because the biggest issue with these bigmen is that they tend to suck defensively, all with the exception of Cousins, none have displayed the ability to anchor a defense. In Cousins case, hes played in a grueling conference and has had mediocre teammates. Even now, his best players fail to stretch the floor for him, he provides it for them but his best season came when he was a load down low. Sadly, having Rondo has always stunted post touches for his front court teammates, if Cousins were to have George Hill as a teammate, or even a Mike Conley, he would be getting all the post touches he required. PG's are so important to the makeup of a team because they are so varied in skillsets.

The bigger point for me is that the efficiency of post-up plays just isn't comparable to motion offenses that set screens and shoot 3's. The change in the game is real and I don't expect us to ever see a guy like Okafor dominate the league. The problem is people will argue that they won't dominate because their talent level isn't on par with any of the 90s centers not because offenses have gotten smarter.

KnicksorBust
01-10-2016, 04:13 PM
Post players... who would want to build around somebody like Anthony Davis, or Tim Duncan, or Blake Griffin.

It's just silly.

Davis is a pnr and face-up player, Duncan doesn't score 10ppg anymore, and half of Blake Griffin's shots are mid-range or 3's. :)

ewing
01-10-2016, 04:20 PM
The bigger point for me is that the efficiency of post-up plays just isn't comparable to motion offenses that set screens and shoot 3's. The change in the game is real and I don't expect us to ever see a guy like Okafor dominate the league. The problem is people will argue that they won't dominate because their talent level isn't on par with any of the 90s centers not because offenses have gotten smarter.

beating people with the pass has always gotten better looks then beating someone with dribble. Thing is you cant always beat a defensive with the pass and then a player has to beat someone. When that happens post play is still valuable.

KnicksorBust
01-10-2016, 05:12 PM
Getting high percentage shots in the post should always remain an asset for any winning team. Unfortunately many of the names mentioned by the OP don't really pass the ball out of the post very well.

High efficiency shots are at the rim not out of post-ups. A very important distinction.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 05:24 PM
High efficiency shots are at the rim not out of post-ups. A very important distinction.

At shot at the rim is a shot at the rim. You get those type of shots by being around the ACTION and posting up.


The idea of the game is to beat the other teams biggest and best player. That is how GS won the finals. Green beat Movgov who was owning everyone in the playoffs.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 05:28 PM
In my order of best post players (interior players it's the SAME THING).

Duncan
Green
Leonard
Aldridge
Drummund, needs more experience and desire to win
Howard
D. Jordan
J. Bulter could be here if he had a real coach.

That's all I care to list.


Everyone one of these are on the best teams in the NBA. playing inside is about knowledge.

KnicksorBust
01-10-2016, 05:31 PM
Lazy analysis.
In the end of the day, it's about the diversity of the offense. If you're a predictable black hole like some of those players listed, then yes, it's bad for your offense and makes it easy for the opposing defense to game plan and defend against you.

So you agree?


On the other hand, if you're an unselfish player who uses post game sparingly and is willing to pass out, then it can still be very useful (see: Duncan, prime Gasol) or else if you're an unstoppable force like Shaq.

But that is my whole point. Even you are conceding post play should be used sparingly to be very useful.


Post play isn't as valuable as it once was,

Bingo. And it's not nearly as efficient as other types of offense.


but saying that it has no use is asinine.

Where did I say that?:confused: It's a valuable component when used correctly.


Then again, OP has a history of saying crazy statements for attention (see: "Hinkie is a genius")

Hinkie graduated summa cum laude from the University of Oklahoma, where he served as president of the student business association and chairman of the dean's roundtable, and was named one of the top 60 undergraduates in the country by USA Today. Hinkie then earned an MBA from Stanford University. Sounds like a pretty smart guy to me. He's on year 3 of a 5 year plan. We'll see how it plays out. :)

My "crazy" statements turn out to be right an awful lot too... Gasol, Harden, Rose, Wall, Curry, latest...Sullinger

KnicksorBust
01-10-2016, 05:38 PM
At shot at the rim is a shot at the rim. You get those type of shots by being around the ACTION and posting up.


The idea of the game is to beat the other teams biggest and best player. That is how GS won the finals. Green beat Movgov who was owning everyone in the playoffs.

My OP "Can teams still build around low post player as their #1 option?"
Your counter "Draymond Green in the playoffs."

With all due respect, you are completely missing the point of the thread if you think GState and Green prove the value of post play. If anything they prove my thesis is correct. A small ball team built around spacing, screens, and perimeter players won the title is in on a historic pace this season.


In my order of best post players (interior players it's the SAME THING).

Duncan
Green
Leonard
Aldridge
Drummund, needs more experience and desire to win
Howard
D. Jordan
J. Bulter could be here if he had a real coach.

That's all I care to list.


Everyone one of these are on the best teams in the NBA. playing inside is about knowledge.

Please re-read the OP.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 05:48 PM
My OP "Can teams still build around low post player as their #1 option?"
Your counter "Draymond Green in the playoffs."

With all due respect, you are completely missing the point of the thread if you think GState and Green prove the value of post play. If anything they prove my thesis is correct. A small ball team built around spacing, screens, and perimeter players won the title is in on a historic pace this season.



Please re-read the OP.

Buddy, Buddy!!!! Why doesn't Don Nelson have 15 coaching titles then?


Inside play is what wins.

2point FG% is what wins. If you are great at 2pt % you will be great at everything. It is the main thing in basketball ball. Can you make a layup or not over defense. If you can't do this you have no place in the league or in any league.

Also the post up play called by a coach is the best call to make in the game EVERYTIME. It's 60% . While a pick and roll is about 40% and easy to defend.

The Cavs would be no where without the inside play of Mozgov and Thompson. It's needed.

The only reason Anthony Davis isn't working out and because he's a pelican and they will never win with that clown name. Some of you kids need to stop being so trusting to corporate America. pelicans is a losing plan.

It's like naming a burger restaurant. "eat these ****** rat burgers".

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 05:53 PM
It shows a dominance over another player or team when you post up on them. you can't get that just shooting threes the whole game.


Sixers are trying to lose. Okafor will be good in a few years and will need to leave that franchise because they aren't even passing to him. He's getting everything off the off. board.

A coach that is using the post is Stan Van Gundy and he's the COACH of the YEAR so far. in getting a very bad team to look very good in one season. He's done that by using the center and playing out of the center.

That is proof that it's the only way to build.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 05:55 PM
It's the math on it. No one can do math now.

It's much easier to shoot 60% inside than shoot 40% on threes. It's much easier but no one wants to admit it. It's a better game plan. Just play inside and post up you'll win. Also you'll get every single offensive rebound so even the rare occasion you miss you will automatically get a tip in.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 05:56 PM
All the NBA has to do is just make it so that 4 fouls and you're out. Then everyone would start posting up again.

Sandman
01-10-2016, 06:00 PM
So you agree?



But that is my whole point. Even you are conceding post play should be used sparingly to be very useful.

,

Bingo. And it's not nearly as efficient as other types of offense.

.

Where did I say that?:confused: It's a valuable component when used correctly.



Hinkie graduated summa cum laude from the University of Oklahoma, where he served as president of the student business association and chairman of the dean's roundtable, and was named one of the top 60 undergraduates in the country by USA Today. Hinkie then earned an MBA from Stanford University. Sounds like a pretty smart guy to me. He's on year 3 of a 5 year plan. We'll see how it plays out. :)

My "crazy" statements turn out to be right an awful lot too... Gasol, Harden, Rose, Wall, Curry, latest...Sullinger

It sounds like your argument is changing, you said in the first post that post players make losing teams

KnicksorBust
01-10-2016, 06:15 PM
At shot at the rim is a shot at the rim. You get those type of shots by being around the ACTION and posting up.


The idea of the game is to beat the other teams biggest and best player. That is how GS won the finals. Green beat Movgov who was owning everyone in the playoffs.


Buddy, Buddy!!!! Why doesn't Don Nelson have 15 coaching titles then?


Inside play is what wins.

2point FG% is what wins. If you are great at 2pt % you will be great at everything. It is the main thing in basketball ball. Can you make a layup or not over defense. If you can't do this you have no place in the league or in any league.

Also the post up play called by a coach is the best call to make in the game EVERYTIME. It's 60% . While a pick and roll is about 40% and easy to defend.

The Cavs would be no where without the inside play of Mozgov and Thompson. It's needed.

The only reason Anthony Davis isn't working out and because he's a pelican and they will never win with that clown name. Some of you kids need to stop being so trusting to corporate America. pelicans is a losing plan.

It's like naming a burger restaurant. "eat these ****** rat burgers".

:laugh: Yeah I'm not biting on this. Fun read though.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 06:21 PM
Yeah I'm not biting on this. Fun read though.

you've never thought of it, that's why.

Even Shaq and Barkley agree with me and they know more than you about the game and the NBA.

the NBA is a business, which means everything has to be right to work. It took McDonalds many years to think of the Golden double Acrh.

They say that is why the business worked so well.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 06:29 PM
cousins is a head case that is why they lose. Also gay causes teams to lose. Everywhere he has gone they lose. Grizzles sucked when he was there, Raptors sucked when he was there and now the kings.
Also they have gay looking jerseys that half the players hate wearing.

T'wolves had gay looking jerseys and a horrendous court. So no one goes to the games and supports this young team with supposedly the two best rookies the last two years. Seems like they would have more than 50 people in the audience if the management knew how to run the business side of things. Also 4 and 17 in the last 21 games.

KnicksorBust
01-10-2016, 06:54 PM
It sounds like your argument is changing, you said in the first post that post players make losing teams

The players that are the highest scoring low post players are on losing teams. That's not even an argument. It's factual. My actual question has remained the same and can be taken right from the OP


Do you believe that with this current set of rules and playing styles that a team can be built around a low post player?

I challenge you to find the post where I say teams should stop posting up. I also never said it is "useless." I learned from someone on here I believe these are called "strawman" arguments. :laugh: The fallacy that I believe a lot of people still have is that it's the better shot when year after year that is proven to be untrue. S5ss article supports that. That's not to say there aren't many talented players who can still do work with their back to the basket. Vuc is a good example.

KnicksorBust
01-10-2016, 06:57 PM
you've never thought of it, that's why.

Even Shaq and Barkley agree with me and they know more than you about the game and the NBA.

the NBA is a business, which means everything has to be right to work. It took McDonalds many years to think of the Golden double Acrh.

They say that is why the business worked so well.

Nah my friend it is because you think post-up score 60% of the time. You are either trolling or just don't know the facts. Have a good night.

valade16
01-10-2016, 08:41 PM
We know factually from looking up player's shot charts that everybody (or anybody actually) scores at a 90% clip.

DeAndre Jordan does nothing but dunk and even he is only shooting 77% from 0-3 ft...

Bruno
01-10-2016, 08:45 PM
I think this has all to do with the rules.

valade16
01-10-2016, 08:52 PM
I think this has all to do with the rules.

Agreed.

KnicksorBust
01-10-2016, 09:16 PM
I think this has all to do with the rules.

It is hard to imagine with these rules a big man leading the league in scoring again unless he is like Anthony Davis and not a traditional back to the basket pf/c. Shaq was the last to do it and that was LA Shaq from 15 years ago.

MarvinJackson
01-10-2016, 09:17 PM
We know factually from looking up player's shot charts that everybody (or anybody actually) scores at a 90% clip.

DeAndre Jordan does nothing but dunk and even he is only shooting 77% from 0-3 ft...

77% is better than any three point shooter.

valade16
01-10-2016, 10:20 PM
77% is better than any three point shooter.

I'm not sure what your point is but yes that's true, although a 3pt shooter would only have to hit 51% of their 3's to score as many points as 77% at the rim.

kobe4thewinbang
01-10-2016, 10:46 PM
Not too long ago, Gasol and Bynum were destroying teams, like Dwight was, and Duncan is still a reliable force down low. The game is more movement based now, but a team could still win with a big man on the block. Maybe Cousins or Whiteside one day.

Alayla
01-10-2016, 11:13 PM
Demarcus Cousins
Brook Lopez
Al Jefferson
Jhalil Okafor
Greg Monroe

The modern game is phasing out the traditional back to the basket big. The Gasols can play out of both posts. Horford is shooting 3's. Towns and Porzingis play on the perimeter. Guys like Drummond and Jordan have found success but not by turning their back to the hoop and backing players down. It is a pick and roll league and they dive to the basket better than any other two. Which leades me to my question:

Do you believe that with this current set of rules and playing styles that a team can be built around a low post player?

Lopez spent alot of time as the nets best player when hes at best a 3rd option even when healthy
Al Jefferson has been on some decent teams hes just playing 1 end of the floor.
Jury is out on Okafor its way to early and unfair to even talk about that.
Monroe is just honestly not that good never has been and again plays 1 end of the floor.

im not saying the game is not changing but alot of that ties to the talent of bigs not the playstyle itself none of those guys ever projected to be superstars in the first place.

Besides the key role for a good center is good defense somthing almost your entire list lacks says alot about todays bigs doesn't it?

ldawg
01-10-2016, 11:17 PM
If i was a GM and had a choice to have a solid low post player i would 99% of the time. What i would avoid however is the slow lumbering center. IMO its a matter of finding balance between in and out. You cant come down and post on every play or the big dont have to be the primary guy but to have a capable guy that can take and make the game highest percentage shot and draw the defense to him is a luxury.

Yes Gsw shoot many threes but not lets forget they got great shooters. Not all teams have that. On top of that Bogut must be invisible as if they dont give GWS an option as an inside presents. Lets not talk about the Spurs. Thats the two top in the West now lets role to the East. Cavs over paid their Big to return and Chicago still got their skill inside Guy. So to think the game is all outside is a bit misleading. Is it still the game of having your back to the basket for 15sec No. Is it still the game the big man touch the ball on every play? no. But dont over look the importance of the big man. Looking at top centers in the league on sorry teams dont tell the story, It a team sport.

Look at it this Way. Shaq was the most dominant but look who he won or played with. He had Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash, Lebron. When the game was on the line did Lakers and Heat run a post play? But guess what Shaq presents drew so much attention and you had to keep a body on him. In other words defense could not cheat. So to think if a Shaq or a Hakeem comes along you should not draft them is nuts.

ldawg
01-11-2016, 12:23 AM
Its very easy for teams teams to run up and down and shoot. Its not reliable but its easy. You got to ask yourself why the spurs have been so consistent in almost two decades. You got to also ask Why Lakers went 3 straight trips to the finals after adding Pau inside game. Kobe was putting up insane numbers before his presents. I think it seem that way because the game dont have many good big men so teams resort to smaller lineups. Rather that having a stiff for a center its best to fill the gap with a more skill player. GSW is unique and Miami was talented. At the End of the Day talent win games.

JAZZNC
01-11-2016, 01:47 AM
If i was a GM and had a choice to have a solid low post player i would 99% of the time. What i would avoid however is the slow lumbering center. IMO its a matter of finding balance between in and out. You cant come down and post on every play or the big dont have to be the primary guy but to have a capable guy that can take and make the game highest percentage shot and draw the defense to him is a luxury.

Yes Gsw shoot many threes but not lets forget they got great shooters. Not all teams have that. On top of that Bogut must be invisible as if they dont give GWS an option as an inside presents. Lets not talk about the Spurs. Thats the two top in the West now lets role to the East. Cavs over paid their Big to return and Chicago still got their skill inside Guy. So to think the game is all outside is a bit misleading. Is it still the game of having your back to the basket for 15sec No. Is it still the game the big man touch the ball on every play? no. But dont over look the importance of the big man. Looking at top centers in the league on sorry teams dont tell the story, It a team sport.

Look at it this Way. Shaq was the most dominant but look who he won or played with. He had Penny, Kobe, Wade, Nash, Lebron. When the game was on the line did Lakers and Heat run a post play? But guess what Shaq presents drew so much attention and you had to keep a body on him. In other words defense could not cheat. So to think if a Shaq or a Hakeem comes along you should not draft them is nuts.

What kind of presents did Shaq have? Were they for Christmas or what?

Sadds The Gr8
01-11-2016, 02:54 AM
I think the main point is being twisted. Obviously having bigs than can post help, but I think the point is that teams centered around post-up bigs just don't have efficient enough offenses. Posting up isn't an easy way to score anymore. Zach Lowe wrote a good article on this last year.

5ass
01-11-2016, 02:55 AM
You have to be able to also defend or at least stretch the floor.

ldawg
01-11-2016, 07:40 AM
I never saw a team that just focus on inside play. 3 point shots have always been part of the game. The last big man to lead his team to the finals may be Howard. But look at all the three point players that were around him? Post up plays is still efficient. Its the highest percentage position on the game. Thing is the center have to be quicker than in years pass and it will depend on the other 4 players on the court.

KnicksorBust
01-11-2016, 09:07 AM
I think the main point is being twisted. Obviously having bigs than can post help, but I think the point is that teams centered around post-up bigs just don't have efficient enough offenses. Posting up isn't an easy way to score anymore. Zach Lowe wrote a good article on this last year.

What would I do without you?

STRIKERC
01-11-2016, 10:55 AM
I think the main point is being twisted. Obviously having bigs than can post help, but I think the point is that teams centered around post-up bigs just don't have efficient enough offenses. Posting up isn't an easy way to score anymore. Zach Lowe wrote a good article on this last year.

So you're saying teams centered around stretch bigs have better efficiency?
I'm waiting for the numbers on that one.

STRIKERC
01-11-2016, 10:59 AM
A team has to be diverse on offense to win in this league so centering your offence on a post player will not lead you to win and that applies to stretch bigs.
Having the right pieces is what counts, but i still rather have a big bruising body down low than have a big guys shooting threes.

STRIKERC
01-11-2016, 11:03 AM
Question should've been, with the right pieces in place would you rather have a stretch big or a low post big.
And the answer will always be LOW POST big.
Imagine what Golden State will be if they had a bruising low post guy in the mix.

Scoots
01-11-2016, 11:07 AM
If you put Okafor on the Warriors he would come off the bench, but he would make their bench unit somewhat more interesting. The Warriors best post scorer is the 120lb Shaun Livingston.

Players with a good post game need to be good defenders and they need to be good passers to take maximum advantage of the inevitable double ... on the Warriors Okafor wouldn't get doubled.

Sadds The Gr8
01-11-2016, 02:11 PM
So you're saying teams centered around stretch bigs have better efficiency?
I'm waiting for the numbers on that one.
I'm saying teams that aren't based around stopping the ball movement for constant post-ups have better efficiency. You can obviously have good post play, it just can't be the #1 option.

No clue why you're making it seem so black & white...

Pierzynski4Prez
01-11-2016, 02:35 PM
So Okafor gets listed for being a low post player on a losing team, while Towns gets praised for playing on the perimeter, even though the T-Wolves are 12-26?

STRIKERC
01-11-2016, 02:39 PM
I'm saying teams that aren't based around stopping the ball movement for constant post-ups have better efficiency. You can obviously have good post play, it just can't be the #1 option.

No clue why you're making it seem so black & white...

OP made it black and white.
Read the thread title. He made a statement that offensive low post players make losing teams.

Sadds The Gr8
01-11-2016, 02:42 PM
So Okafor gets listed for being a low post player on a losing team, while Towns gets praised for playing on the perimeter, even though the T-Wolves are 12-26?
Towns isn't a perimeter player only. He can post-up too. And he also isn't the #1 option

valade16
01-11-2016, 02:44 PM
Back before zone defenses were legal teams would spread out 4 guys on the perimeter and feed it into their big man down low. Now that zone defenses are legal the ability to shoot the 3 should fill the same role and theoretically provide spacing for the big man to not get doubled (or if he does, get a wide open look from deep).

I think a post player can work much like Dwight in Orlando where it was all shooters around Dwight.

Pierzynski4Prez
01-11-2016, 02:45 PM
Towns isn't a perimeter player only. He can post-up too. And he also isn't the #1 option

I get that. Just pointing out the flaws in the OP.

MarvinJackson
01-11-2016, 03:23 PM
Still posting up is the only way to score consistently at 60%. Because you can get to the free throw line a lot there and it also controls the pace of a game and series. Also it collapses the defense everytime which leaves the entire team wide open for offensive rebounds.

KnicksorBust
01-11-2016, 09:48 PM
So Okafor gets listed for being a low post player on a losing team, while Towns gets praised for playing on the perimeter, even though the T-Wolves are 12-26?

The point is the game has transitioned offensively from Okafor types to big men like Towns and I believe that has been proven effective. Teams know they can't dump the ball in the post 25-30 times.

ldawg
01-11-2016, 11:22 PM
The point is the game has transitioned offensively from Okafor types to big men like Towns and I believe that has been proven effective. Teams know they can't dump the ball in the post 25-30 times.No It just dont have many good big men in the league. So your saying the reason 76ers struggle is because of Okafor? So what is New Oleans reason? What about NY reason? how about the Suns? Hell Clippers should have 3 titles by now. To bad Okafor got drafted by sixers. Not sure how they can be decent when they cant spread the floor and Him starting next to another center for a team that want to tank. But oh well the new thing teams do since the league dont have to many good centers is to run more shot more. So i can see why it seem that way.

ldawg
01-11-2016, 11:30 PM
If Shaq was drafted in this Era he would still dominate.

Quinnsanity
01-12-2016, 03:11 AM
Just a thought, and I'll come back in this thread tomorrow with more numbers to try to back this up, but is it possible that the main culprit here is that most of the low post big men we happen to have right now happen to suck defensively, and that's why their teams aren't doing particularly well? Cousins is the only effective defender on the initial list, and if you don't think Cousins is a superstar I'm not sure what to tell you.

Let's put low post offense in a vacuum. If we're saying that a great low post scorer is going to make around 55% of his two-point shots (I don't have numbers off hand, but that seems reasonable for an elite guy), that's a PPP of 1.1 BEFORE accounting for added free throw volume. If you convert that 1.1 PPP number to three-pointers, that's a little less than a 37% three-point shooter, which is pretty good (though obviously your Curry's and Thompson's and Korver's are going to have a higher PPP). It also achieves the same PPP with far less game-to-game variance and has a positive impact on defense (this has been empirically proven somewhere, it's a combination of less running/more rest, easier cross match ups and slowed pace). When you put all of those factors together, yea, a legitimate low-post big man is a very appealing option offensively.

The issue is that most of our current crop can't play defense, and it's hard to tolerate players in a pace-and-space league when they don't provide spacing and they give up easy baskets at the rim. It becomes net neutral if your guy is scoring with ease but the opponent is as well, and frankly net neutral players are not superstars. You can skate by if you're someone like Harden, because shooting guard defense on a team with Patrick Beverley and Trevor Ariza isn't as important, but teams really struggle to build functioning defenses without a center. If Okafor, or Brook, or Jefferson, or whoever were at least neutral defenders, the math and logic says that they'd be beneficial to their teams through offense.

I think we get too caught up in what the top team or two is doing in a given year. Yes, it's important, and the Warriors are certainly the model teams are trying to follow, but that doesn't mean that they're the ONLY way to play. That's just myopic. Eventually, a new team will win a championship and THEIR way will be the only way. It's a never-ending cycle. At the end of the day the best team is going to win the championship. That team can be constructed in any number of ways.

Scoots
01-12-2016, 11:23 AM
It also achieves the same PPP with far less game-to-game variance and has a positive impact on defense (this has been empirically proven somewhere, it's a combination of less running/more rest, easier cross match ups and slowed pace).

I think this is a MAJOR under-appreciated aspect of the Warriors win last year. They were #1 in pace and shooting the ball from the outside so much ... but still somehow managed to be #1 on defense. This year the Spurs have cut back on the 3s and are slowing the pace (27th this year) and are #1 in defense at a record level ... but the next 3 teams in defensive ranking all play at a significantly faster pace.

People are critical of post scoring big men ... but the argument maybe should be more than there are not many available and the best low post scorers seem to be bad defenders. It may be that the college game has changed how players develop and it's not that teams can't win with a dominant low post scorer ... but that they can't win with a one dimensional star without somehow building a whole team around them ... and even then they can't be totally one dimensional or they break schemes.

KnicksorBust
01-12-2016, 12:51 PM
No It just dont have many good big men in the league.

:confused:

Horford, Millsap, Gasol, Love, Dirk, Drummond, Green, Griffin, Jordan, Gasol, Bosh, Whiteside,
ADavis, Towns, Porzingis, Ibaka, Aldridge.


So your saying the reason 76ers struggle is because of Okafor?

They would be bad with or without him. Amazingly they are worse WITH HIM. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/2/sort/RPM/position/9

He has the worst +/- of any center in the NBA. 75th out of 75.


So what is New Oleans reason?

Missing the point.


What about NY reason?

Missing the point.


how about the Suns?

Missing the point.


Hell Clippers should have 3 titles by now.

My argument is not that teams who don't post-up their big men should win all the titles. In fact I believe post-ups are still valuable in the right situations. My question in the OP was simply asking if a team can rely on a low-post scorer to do the heavy lifting anymore. The fact that guards/wing players consistently are among the top scorers is a sign that the answer is no. The fact that the most talented big men (see list above) is made up of players that can shoot from the perimeter, pass, or dive to the rim on pick and rolls is a sign that the answer is no. And the fact that the offensive players in the league that score the most from the post are all on losing teams is a sign that the answer is no.

KnicksorBust
01-12-2016, 12:58 PM
Just a thought, and I'll come back in this thread tomorrow with more numbers to try to back this up, but is it possible that the main culprit here is that most of the low post big men we happen to have right now happen to suck defensively, and that's why their teams aren't doing particularly well? Cousins is the only effective defender on the initial list, and if you don't think Cousins is a superstar I'm not sure what to tell you.

I would love to hear a list of 4-5 players that have been "superstars" whose teams have been this bad during their career.


Let's put low post offense in a vacuum. If we're saying that a great low post scorer is going to make around 55% of his two-point shots (I don't have numbers off hand, but that seems reasonable for an elite guy), that's a PPP of 1.1 BEFORE accounting for added free throw volume. If you convert that 1.1 PPP number to three-pointers, that's a little less than a 37% three-point shooter, which is pretty good (though obviously your Curry's and Thompson's and Korver's are going to have a higher PPP). It also achieves the same PPP with far less game-to-game variance and has a positive impact on defense (this has been empirically proven somewhere, it's a combination of less running/more rest, easier cross match ups and slowed pace). When you put all of those factors together, yea, a legitimate low-post big man is a very appealing option offensively.

But that is the greatest myth of low-post scoring. Shots at the rim have a high percentage. Yes. But actually post-ups do not. Here is a post from earlier in the thread:


http://bballbreakdown.com/2015/11/nik-vucevic-modern-post/

According to Synergy Sports data, plays ending in post-ups averaged about .85 Points Per Possession (PPP) in 2014-15, as compared to .93 PPP on all plays

Wrigheyes4MVP
01-12-2016, 01:20 PM
Demarcus Cousins
Brook Lopez
Al Jefferson
Jhalil Okafor
Greg Monroe

The modern game is phasing out the traditional back to the basket big. The Gasols can play out of both posts. Horford is shooting 3's. Towns and Porzingis play on the perimeter. Guys like Drummond and Jordan have found success but not by turning their back to the hoop and backing players down. It is a pick and roll league and they dive to the basket better than any other two. Which leades me to my question:

Do you believe that with this current set of rules and playing styles that a team can be built around a low post player?

Just speaking about the Kings... 1) The Kings have one of the better offenses in the league. Defense is there problem. They are horrible on the defensive end. That's why they lose. And 2) Cousins is not a strict back to the basket big anymore. He shoots 3's now and drives with his front the basket. If anything he should post up more because that is probably the most efficient aspect of his game.

Anyway, I don't think low post scorers are overrated as much as it is 3 point shooters, spacing, and ball movement is now being properly rated. The low post scorers of today aren't what they used to be.

ldawg
01-12-2016, 08:58 PM
I would love to hear a list of 4-5 players that have been "superstars" whose teams have been this bad during their career.



But that is the greatest myth of low-post scoring. Shots at the rim have a high percentage. Yes. But actually post-ups do not. Here is a post from earlier in the thread:



According to Synergy Sports data, plays ending in post-ups averaged about .85 Points Per Possession (PPP) in 2014-15, as compared to .93 PPP on all plays

That strange because only of late centers shoot below 50%. Is that a result of centers posting more?

Scoots
01-13-2016, 11:58 AM
That strange because only of late centers shoot below 50%. Is that a result of centers posting more?

I think part of it is that the current crop of centers are not good at post offense, part is that "verticality" is helping post defense, part is that the 5 second rule means they have to get rid of the ball faster than they used to, and part is that zone defense being allowed means that players can more easily double AND get back to their man on the perimeter if the ball is passed out.

KnicksorBust
01-13-2016, 12:54 PM
Just speaking about the Kings... 1) The Kings have one of the better offenses in the league. Defense is there problem. They are horrible on the defensive end. That's why they lose. And 2) Cousins is not a strict back to the basket big anymore. He shoots 3's now and drives with his front the basket. If anything he should post up more because that is probably the most efficient aspect of his game.

Anyway, I don't think low post scorers are overrated as much as it is 3 point shooters, spacing, and ball movement is now being properly rated. The low post scorers of today aren't what they used to be.

It's an interesting theory. The fact that the 3ball had two separate revolutions in the late 80s and again today speaks volumes.

KnicksorBust
01-13-2016, 12:56 PM
I think part of it is that the current crop of centers are not good at post offense, part is that "verticality" is helping post defense, part is that the 5 second rule means they have to get rid of the ball faster than they used to, and part is that zone defense being allowed means that players can more easily double AND get back to their man on the perimeter if the ball is passed out.

With the way the game is moving I doubt it reverts back to the old ways. I believe the Jhalil Okafor types are going to become the exception and be replaced by more stretch bigs and small ball lineups.