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JasonJohnHorn
01-08-2016, 01:18 AM
I understand that, especially coming back from an injury that most would have retired after, and given his age, that Kobe isn't going to play like Kobe Bryant of yesteryear, but I do have to wonder about his shooting and offensive game.


When comparing him to his peers, and by peers I mean guys his age at his position, it seems that despite dominating a lot of guys, like Manu for instance, he hasn't retained his shot as well as them.

Kobe is currently shooting .341 from the field, and .259 from the arc.

When you look at Manu, though (who is a year older), he's shooting .459 from the field and .390 from the arc (higher than Kobe from the field).

When you look at other SGs, like Ray Allen, Reggie Miller....Jordan, in their final years (some of whom were older), none of them seemed to take a hit like Kobe.


This is surprising to me. Kobe has always had a sweet fade away, which was supposed to help him age well, and he's got a solid post-up game, which was likewise supposed to help him age well. But now that he's at the age where those things are supposed to help him, they seem to have vanished!

Any reason why this is the case for Kobe and not these other players?

Redrum187
01-08-2016, 01:47 AM
He has a higher TS% than Derrick Rose. :P

Wade n Fade
01-08-2016, 02:02 AM
Can we cool down on the Kobe topics?

jerellh528
01-08-2016, 02:25 AM
I think you're missing the multiple season ending injuries, being the focal point of an offense on ****** teams instead of being a part time role player on good teams and maybe even his total minutes played. Not to mention, Allen n Miller are regarded as a few of the top shooters of all time

basch152
01-08-2016, 02:31 AM
Yeah, difference is most of these guys weren't still trying to be #1 options, so it makes sense.

I couldn't imagine manu/allen/miller still be the clear #1 on their team at this age (let alone following the injuries) and putting up any kind of respectable stats.

Tony_Starks
01-08-2016, 02:55 AM
How are Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, and Stephon Marbury shooting this season? Because those are his only real peers and they've long been extinct.

Hotone1401
01-08-2016, 03:07 AM
Yeah, difference is most of these guys weren't still trying to be #1 options, so it makes sense.

I couldn't imagine manu/allen/miller still be the clear #1 on their team at this age (let alone following the injuries) and putting up any kind of respectable stats.

This.

Hotone1401
01-08-2016, 03:09 AM
How are Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, and Stephon Marbury shooting this season? Because those are his only real peers and they've long been extinct.

Even so, I still wouldn't lump Ray Allen in there when comparing to Kobe. Ray has never been a play maker nor has he ever really had the ability to create his own shot. Ray would still be shooting lights out even now just coming off of screens and spotting up.

LA_Raiders
01-08-2016, 03:21 AM
Goat

kobe4thewinbang
01-08-2016, 03:39 AM
He's shooting too much and can't retain the proper lift. He shoots too many threes just to shoot them it seems, and he needs to be doing more fadeaways/post-ups/cutting (like Ray Allem or Rip Hamilton). And frankly he needs to drive more. That's why his stats are bad; plus he lobably feels forced to shoot because most of those youngsters can't stay consistent (not that Kobe can) and Hibbert is allergic to the ball on most nights. I wish Kobe the playmaker would return for the rest of the season because even though Lakers suck Kobe needs to stop shooting so much. Why? Because he's 5-25 most nights. There are other shots. He keeps taking that first option, usually a 3 for the hell of it.

More-Than-Most
01-08-2016, 05:34 AM
I think you're missing the multiple season ending injuries, being the focal point of an offense on ****** teams instead of being a part time role player on good teams and maybe even his total minutes played. Not to mention, Allen n Miller are regarded as a few of the top shooters of all time

and he has Byron scott at helm and a bunch of rookies around him... Kobe would not be this bad this year had he taken a back seat to someone like Butler or if Cousins was traded for and he took a back seat to him and so on.

Gander13SM
01-08-2016, 06:38 AM
How are Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, and Stephon Marbury shooting this season? Because those are his only real peers and they've long been extinct.

Last I checked Marbury was averaging 30, 6 and 5 on his way to a championship.

Albeit in China.

They also erected a statue of him and made a play about his life. He's had a complete rebirth over there they idolise him.

Anyway...

KnicksorBust
01-08-2016, 09:03 AM
I understand that, especially coming back from an injury that most would have retired after, and given his age, that Kobe isn't going to play like Kobe Bryant of yesteryear, but I do have to wonder about his shooting and offensive game.


When comparing him to his peers, and by peers I mean guys his age at his position, it seems that despite dominating a lot of guys, like Manu for instance, he hasn't retained his shot as well as them.

Kobe is currently shooting .341 from the field, and .259 from the arc.

When you look at Manu, though (who is a year older), he's shooting .459 from the field and .390 from the arc (higher than Kobe from the field).

When you look at other SGs, like Ray Allen, Reggie Miller....Jordan, in their final years (some of whom were older), none of them seemed to take a hit like Kobe.


This is surprising to me. Kobe has always had a sweet fade away, which was supposed to help him age well, and he's got a solid post-up game, which was likewise supposed to help him age well. But now that he's at the age where those things are supposed to help him, they seem to have vanished!

Any reason why this is the case for Kobe and not these other players?

I had a long discussion about this with a coworker. He's lost so much athleticism over the years and with the injuries that his first step doesn't beat people to the rim so he is not getting easy baskets. And his legs don't have the same lift so his jumper is flat. Plus he doesn't have Shaq or Gasol to draw ANY defense. It's a recipe for disaster.


Even so, I still wouldn't lump Ray Allen in there when comparing to Kobe. Ray has never been a play maker nor has he ever really had the ability to create his own shot. Ray would still be shooting lights out even now just coming off of screens and spotting up.

Posts like this bother me. It is ignorant about the players career. Scorers like Ray Allen, Peja, Curry (not as much anymore), etc are described as if they spent their careers playing like Steve Kerr or Steve Novak. Those guys USED screens, yes. But they could create their own shots.


How are Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, and Stephon Marbury shooting this season? Because those are his only real peers and they've long been extinct.

Love this post because it shows how long and impressive Kobe's career has been up to this point. It is part of what makes Kobe's career as a whole so special. Top 5 player in the league from 2001 to 2013. Not many players can make a claim with that many years behind it.

Hawkeye15
01-08-2016, 10:35 AM
most if not all the players you listed didn't have multiple serious injuries to their lower body, which is a killer for a wing. Add to it that many of those players usage was reeled in, and you have your answer.

JasonJohnHorn
01-08-2016, 11:29 AM
Can we cool down on the Kobe topics?

1. It's the guys last season. People are going to talk.
2. There aren't that many threads about him.
3. If you got problem with it, why are you reading it?

Tony_Starks
01-08-2016, 11:31 AM
I understand that, especially coming back from an injury that most would have retired after, and given his age, that Kobe isn't going to play like Kobe Bryant of yesteryear, but I do have to wonder about his shooting and offensive game.


When comparing him to his peers, and by peers I mean guys his age at his position, it seems that despite dominating a lot of guys, like Manu for instance, he hasn't retained his shot as well as them.

Kobe is currently shooting .341 from the field, and .259 from the arc.

When you look at Manu, though (who is a year older), he's shooting .459 from the field and .390 from the arc (higher than Kobe from the field).

When you look at other SGs, like Ray Allen, Reggie Miller....Jordan, in their final years (some of whom were older), none of them seemed to take a hit like Kobe.


This is surprising to me. Kobe has always had a sweet fade away, which was supposed to help him age well, and he's got a solid post-up game, which was likewise supposed to help him age well. But now that he's at the age where those things are supposed to help him, they seem to have vanished!

Any reason why this is the case for Kobe and not these other players?

I had a long discussion about this with a coworker. He's lost so much athleticism over the years and with the injuries that his first step doesn't beat people to the rim so he is not getting easy baskets. And his legs don't have the same lift so his jumper is flat. Plus he doesn't have Shaq or Gasol to draw ANY defense. It's a recipe for disaster.


Even so, I still wouldn't lump Ray Allen in there when comparing to Kobe. Ray has never been a play maker nor has he ever really had the ability to create his own shot. Ray would still be shooting lights out even now just coming off of screens and spotting up.

Posts like this bother me. It is ignorant about the players career. Scorers like Ray Allen, Peja, Curry (not as much anymore), etc are described as if they spent their careers playing like Steve Kerr or Steve Novak. Those guys USED screens, yes. But they could create their own shots.


How are Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, and Stephon Marbury shooting this season? Because those are his only real peers and they've long been extinct.

Love this post because it shows how long and impressive Kobe's career has been up to this point. It is part of what makes Kobe's career as a whole so special. Top 5 player in the league from 2001 to 2013. Not many players can make a claim with that many years behind it.


Exactly. People throw the term "peers" around loosely but he has long left his true peers in the dust. None of them came close to 20 years and when they did retire most of them had been reduced to role players for years. The closest true peer to retire at a high level was Ray but even he was coming off the bench as a specialty player. Vince is still around and has been coming off the bench for what, 5 years or so?

Kobe had 28 points last night off 10/18 as a starter. None of his peers could've pulled that off in their wildest dreams in their last year, let alone if by some miracle they had lasted 20 years.

No wing player in history has ever done this on his terms at this level...may not happen again either.

JasonJohnHorn
01-08-2016, 11:34 AM
He's shooting too much and can't retain the proper lift. He shoots too many threes just to shoot them it seems, and he needs to be doing more fadeaways/post-ups/cutting (like Ray Allem or Rip Hamilton). And frankly he needs to drive more. That's why his stats are bad; plus he lobably feels forced to shoot because most of those youngsters can't stay consistent (not that Kobe can) and Hibbert is allergic to the ball on most nights. I wish Kobe the playmaker would return for the rest of the season because even though Lakers suck Kobe needs to stop shooting so much. Why? Because he's 5-25 most nights. There are other shots. He keeps taking that first option, usually a 3 for the hell of it.

Great post!

I asked, not to be a smart @$$, but some people seem to be giving answers that seem to assume that was my intent.

I understand that his athleticism is gone and that injuries have slowed him, but guys like Grant Hill had simialr injuries that shelved them for a long time and came back to play long careers and shot well.

This is a great analysis of what is wrong exactly. Thank you for your insightful post.

JasonJohnHorn
01-08-2016, 11:48 AM
How are Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, and Stephon Marbury shooting this season? Because those are his only real peers and they've long been extinct.

You claim that people throw the term 'peers' around loosely, yet you lump Marbury in with Kobe? This is a straw man argument to be frank. I'm not comparing Kobe to shooting guards he got draft with, I'm comparing an elite or championship shooting guard with a long career to other elite or championship shooting guards with long careers. To suggest that Marbury is in that conversation, or somebody like McGrady who was hit early with huge injuries is in that category is intentionally misleading. It is likewise misleading to suggest that a 6'0 played who never shot the ball well (Iverson) is in the same category is Kobe is intentionally naive.

You are smarter than that.

The only guy you mentioned that would be a peer in this respect is Ray Allen, and surprise, he played until he was 38 (Kobe is only 37 now). So you are saying Kobe, who is three years younger than a 40 year old Allen, who played at an age where Kobe will be retired by, was 'outlasted' by Kobe? Hardly.

Allen, who is a fair point of comparison, shot .375 from beyond the arc, and over .500 from inside the arc. He also, at the age at which Kobe is at, was averaging double-digits on a championship team and his a key shot that forced an overtime and allow the Heat to win it all in game seven. So yes, if you want to compare Kobe to a 'peer' like Allen, Allen lasted longer (he played more years in college and the NBA than Kobe played) and was still an effective player on a contender in his last two seasons.

As to the other guys I compared him to, like Manu (who at the age of 36 was a key rotation player in a championship team) is a year OLDER than Kobe (has not been 'outlasted' by Kobe as you say) and is certainly a peer, and THIS season, a full year older than Kobe, is 18 points per36, is getting double digits in a key rotation role, and is shooting at much higher percentages than Kobe.

I comapred Koeb to PEERS. Michael Jordan. Ray Allen. You want to compare him with score-first points guards like Marbury and Allen, go ahead, but don't pretend like I'm the one using the term 'peer' loosely. If you care to justify that claim, I'd be curious to hear it.

The names I listed ARE legitimate peers. They are players who played at All-Star levels and had long careers. Your examples are just guys who happened to be drafted around the same time as Kobe, and are EXTREMELY misleading since you say Kobe 'outlasted' Allen, who played to an older age is is currently in his 40's (as is Allen Iverson mind you).

You comment comes across as snarky, and not constructive or critical at all. Kobe isn't playing against his draft class; he's playing against the legends of the game at this point. I asked legit question as to why his post game and mid-range jumper aren't working, making allowances that his athleticism has obviously slowed down his quickness, and you come in comparing him to Marbury and saying he's better than him?

Please.

Vinylman
01-08-2016, 11:57 AM
omfg... another dumb thread...

the OP's agenda is obvious...

Swim away from the bait people

JasonJohnHorn
01-08-2016, 12:44 PM
omfg... another dumb thread...

the OP's agenda is obvious...

Swim away from the bait people

Thanks for the unconstructive comments. Personal insults are all you got. As usual.

Hangin n Wangin
01-08-2016, 12:51 PM
He's actually been pretty good over the past month or so. Since December 7th, he is shooting 43 percent and averaging 20 points. He's been a totally different player than what he was at the beginning of the season.

Give the guy a break. He pretty much didn't play basketball for 2 years and had 3 serious injuries, while trying to play professional basketball at age 37 after 20 years in the league. He needed time to get his legs and rhythm back. At the beginning of the season, his jump shot looked awful. He had no lift on his shot and his arms and legs would flail like Paul Pierce all over the place. That isn't happening anymore. His jump shot looks a lot more fluid. He's not what he used to, but he's still better than he was early in the season. Of course, people just look at the overall percentage, with out even watching the games, and trash the guy. Typical PSD.

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 01:15 PM
1) None of the guys you mentioned are first option players.
2) None of the guys you mentioned has had that mileage comparable to Kobe's.
3) None of the guys you mentioned had went through serious injuries very recently.
4) None of the guys you mentioned have any pressure to be great.

Tony_Starks
01-08-2016, 01:53 PM
How are Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, and Stephon Marbury shooting this season? Because those are his only real peers and they've long been extinct.

You claim that people throw the term 'peers' around loosely, yet you lump Marbury in with Kobe? This is a straw man argument to be frank. I'm not comparing Kobe to shooting guards he got draft with, I'm comparing an elite or championship shooting guard with a long career to other elite or championship shooting guards with long careers. To suggest that Marbury is in that conversation, or somebody like McGrady who was hit early with huge injuries is in that category is intentionally misleading. It is likewise misleading to suggest that a 6'0 played who never shot the ball well (Iverson) is in the same category is Kobe is intentionally naive.

You are smarter than that.

The only guy you mentioned that would be a peer in this respect is Ray Allen, and surprise, he played until he was 38 (Kobe is only 37 now). So you are saying Kobe, who is three years younger than a 40 year old Allen, who played at an age where Kobe will be retired by, was 'outlasted' by Kobe? Hardly.

Allen, who is a fair point of comparison, shot .375 from beyond the arc, and over .500 from inside the arc. He also, at the age at which Kobe is at, was averaging double-digits on a championship team and his a key shot that forced an overtime and allow the Heat to win it all in game seven. So yes, if you want to compare Kobe to a 'peer' like Allen, Allen lasted longer (he played more years in college and the NBA than Kobe played) and was still an effective player on a contender in his last two seasons.

As to the other guys I compared him to, like Manu (who at the age of 36 was a key rotation player in a championship team) is a year OLDER than Kobe (has not been 'outlasted' by Kobe as you say) and is certainly a peer, and THIS season, a full year older than Kobe, is 18 points per36, is getting double digits in a key rotation role, and is shooting at much higher percentages than Kobe.

I comapred Koeb to PEERS. Michael Jordan. Ray Allen. You want to compare him with score-first points guards like Marbury and Allen, go ahead, but don't pretend like I'm the one using the term 'peer' loosely. If you care to justify that claim, I'd be curious to hear it.

The names I listed ARE legitimate peers. They are players who played at All-Star levels and had long careers. Your examples are just guys who happened to be drafted around the same time as Kobe, and are EXTREMELY misleading since you say Kobe 'outlasted' Allen, who played to an older age is is currently in his 40's (as is Allen Iverson mind you).

You comment comes across as snarky, and not constructive or critical at all. Kobe isn't playing against his draft class; he's playing against the legends of the game at this point. I asked legit question as to why his post game and mid-range jumper aren't working, making allowances that his athleticism has obviously slowed down his quickness, and you come in comparing him to Marbury and saying he's better than him?

Please.


Apologies if it came off snarky, buy I very much stand by what I said. By peers Im talking superstar wings in or around his draft class. I'm talking all those guys in their prime the conversation at the time was very much "who's the best in the game Kobe, AI, TMac, Vince, Ray" peers. Position doesn't matter, those were the people neck and neck for best wing at the time. That conversation went on for a while until he clearly separated himself from them. Marbury is a stretch to include, true, but still fair since the Lakers literally wanted to take him instead of Kobe.

Ray did not last longer than Kobe, that's absurd. He didn't start going deep into the playoffs consistently until past the prime of his career. If you add up all Kobes post season games he kills Ray in longevity. Not to mention it was much easier for Ray to be efficient as he got older since his role was limited, his teams were stacked, and he was NEVER the defender Kobe was...not even in his prime. As a legitimate peer Kobe crushes him.

Ginobli was NEVER Kobes peer, that's almost laughable. He's come off the bench nearly half his career and been having his minutes managed by Pop for at least 5 years. On a contender at that? Of course his limited role will be efficient, he could probably do what he's doing until he's 40 at this pace.

MJ is Kobes mentor, not peer.

My whole point is what is being done, at his age, history, mileage, has never been done at this level. The is no fair comparison to any current or even past player.

Bron > Kobe
01-08-2016, 01:54 PM
Kobe isnt playing on a contending team, so his role is different than the people you've mentioned. Most great players at Kobes age are ring chasing. Kobe's just chucking, and im fine with that. The Lakers aren't going anywhere, the young guys are getting run and developing despite of Kobe (look at Russell lately and Randall is a top 10 rebounder. Clarkson leads the team in scoring), and they are primed for a decent off season. People are putting to much emphasis on knit picking everything negative Kobe does instead of putting things in perspective.

Hawkeye15
01-08-2016, 01:54 PM
How are Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, and Stephon Marbury shooting this season? Because those are his only real peers and they've long been extinct.

where the hell did Starbury come from?

Tony_Starks
01-08-2016, 02:03 PM
1) None of the guys you mentioned are first option players.
2) None of the guys you mentioned has had that mileage comparable to Kobe's.
3) None of the guys you mentioned had went through serious injuries very recently.
4) None of the guys you mentioned have any pressure to be great.


Pretty much this to the 3rd power.

JasonJohnHorn
01-08-2016, 03:12 PM
Apologies if it came off snarky, buy I very much stand by what I said. By peers Im talking superstar wings in or around his draft class. I'm talking all those guys in their prime the conversation at the time was very much "who's the best in the game Kobe, AI, TMac, Vince, Ray" peers. Position doesn't matter, those were the people neck and neck for best wing at the time. That conversation went on for a while until he clearly separated himself from them. Marbury is a stretch to include, true, but still fair since the Lakers literally wanted to take him instead of Kobe.

Ray did not last longer than Kobe, that's absurd. He didn't start going deep into the playoffs consistently until past the prime of his career. If you add up all Kobes post season games he kills Ray in longevity. Not to mention it was much easier for Ray to be efficient as he got older since his role was limited, his teams were stacked, and he was NEVER the defender Kobe was...not even in his prime. As a legitimate peer Kobe crushes him.

Ginobli was NEVER Kobes peer, that's almost laughable. He's come off the bench nearly half his career and been having his minutes managed by Pop for at least 5 years. On a contender at that? Of course his limited role will be efficient, he could probably do what he's doing until he's 40 at this pace.

MJ is Kobes mentor, not peer.

My whole point is what is being done, at his age, history, mileage, has never been done at this level. The is no fair comparison to any current or even past player.

There's a few things that are inconsistent here.

One, you say Allen didn't last longer than Kobe? He did. Kobe is retiring this year and will have less than 1350 games total. Allen has 1300 regular season game. Include playoffs, Allen had 171 to Kobe's 200. But when you add Allen's college games to that (101), Allen is coming out ahead. Also, Allen played on contenders until his final season, and Kobe hasn't played in the post season in 4 years (that's since the age of 33). The fact that Allen was still a rotation played on a championship team, and a started on a contender before that, suggests that he was playing very well into the twilight of his career. And given that he was 38 when he retired, compared to Kobe's 37, and that even at 39 people were asking him to play for them, signifies that he was still playing at a high level. Nobody, other than a team that wants to cash in on his name and merchandise sales, would be asking Kobe to play for them next season. I'm not sure how you get that Allen didn't play longer, since between college and the NBA he played more games, AND played to an old age, but that seems like a quantifiable fact to me.

As for Manu not being a peer, he is certainly more of a peer than was Marbury. He and Kobe guarded each other in three playoff series. The played in the same conference. And Manu was a key player on a team that was a perennial contender every years since Kobe won his last title with Shaq. Kobe never played against Marbury in a playoff series. Is Kobe categorically better than Manu in every respect? Absolutely! Are they both HOF SGs who played in the same era and whose teams face each other multiple times in the playoffs? Yes. If that doesn't make him a peer, I don't know what does.

Other people and yourself have valid observations here. Kobe is not on a playoff team. He's carrying a heavy load. He doesn't have anybody to share it with. Those are valid points. I don't think that applies to Jordan, who still took on a heavy load, and even though he had Stackhouse his second season with Washington, they were a lottery team.

Now if you don't want to say Jordan is a peer, then I'm not sure who was. If you want to say that nobody played that long with that kind if mileage at such a high level? I'm not sure that comes anywhere close to being a valid argment. Kobe is 37. He hasn't played at an All-NBA level since he was 34. Lot's of 34-year-olds have made an All-NBA team. The level he is playing at now is extremely low, as was his play last year and the year before (due to injuries obviously). As for mileage, Jordan may have retired twice, but at 39 years old, he was one more ring than Kobe and only 30 games behind his total playoff games, and was himself over 1000 regular season games, not to mention 100+ college games. In terms of mileage, Jordan wasn't far off from Kobe and played at a much higher level at 39 than Kobe is at 37.

If we go outside of position (which perhaps isn't fair), then you can pick any number of players who were better that 37 with as much milage or more than Kobe. Kareem. Malone. At 39 Malone was the number one option on a team that made it into the playoffs in a deep west and shot over 46%. Kareem won the finals MVP at the age of 37, and at 39 had a higher scoring average with higher FG%.

Kobe is a phenom. No doubt. I just find it odd that a guy with a great post up game, and with a great mid-range jumper and fade away isn't doing better. I don't think it's just a matter of 'he doesn't have help', because nobody is double-teaming this guy. He's getting single coverage right now. Granted, having guys like LBJ and Wade open things up for guys like Allen, but when MJ was in Washington, the ball was going through him. When Kareem was leading the Lakers to championships in his late 30's, he was their anchor. I just find it odd that his shooting touch has gone and his post game isn't that effective because he was SO good at those things before.

Hangin n Wangin
01-08-2016, 03:17 PM
There's a few things that are inconsistent here.

One, you say Allen didn't last longer than Kobe? He did. Kobe is retiring this year and will have less than 1350 games total. Allen has 1300 regular season game. Include playoffs, Allen had 171 to Kobe's 200. But when you add Allen's college games to that (101), Allen is coming out ahead. Also, Allen played on contenders until his final season, and Kobe hasn't played in the post season in 4 years (that's since the age of 33). The fact that Allen was still a rotation played on a championship team, and a started on a contender before that, suggests that he was playing very well into the twilight of his career. And given that he was 38 when he retired, compared to Kobe's 37, and that even at 39 people were asking him to play for them, signifies that he was still playing at a high level. Nobody, other than a team that wants to cash in on his name and merchandise sales, would be asking Kobe to play for them next season. I'm not sure how you get that Allen didn't play longer, since between college and the NBA he played more games, AND played to an old age, but that seems like a quantifiable fact to me.

As for Manu not being a peer, he is certainly more of a peer than was Marbury. He and Kobe guarded each other in three playoff series. The played in the same conference. And Manu was a key player on a team that was a perennial contender every years since Kobe won his last title with Shaq. Kobe never played against Marbury in a playoff series. Is Kobe categorically better than Manu in every respect? Absolutely! Are they both HOF SGs who played in the same era and whose teams face each other multiple times in the playoffs? Yes. If that doesn't make him a peer, I don't know what does.

Other people and yourself have valid observations here. Kobe is not on a playoff team. He's carrying a heavy load. He doesn't have anybody to share it with. Those are valid points. I don't think that applies to Jordan, who still took on a heavy load, and even though he had Stackhouse his second season with Washington, they were a lottery team.

Now if you don't want to say Jordan is a peer, then I'm not sure who was. If you want to say that nobody played that long with that kind if mileage at such a high level? I'm not sure that comes anywhere close to being a valid argment. Kobe is 37. He hasn't played at an All-NBA level since he was 34. Lot's of 34-year-olds have made an All-NBA team. The level he is playing at now is extremely low, as was his play last year and the year before (due to injuries obviously). As for mileage, Jordan may have retired twice, but at 39 years old, he was one more ring than Kobe and only 30 games behind his total playoff games, and was himself over 1000 regular season games, not to mention 100+ college games. In terms of mileage, Jordan wasn't far off from Kobe and played at a much higher level at 39 than Kobe is at 37.

If we go outside of position (which perhaps isn't fair), then you can pick any number of players who were better that 37 with as much milage or more than Kobe. Kareem. Malone. At 39 Malone was the number one option on a team that made it into the playoffs in a deep west and shot over 46%. Kareem won the finals MVP at the age of 37, and at 39 had a higher scoring average with higher FG%.

Kobe is a phenom. No doubt. I just find it odd that a guy with a great post up game, and with a great mid-range jumper and fade away isn't doing better. I don't think it's just a matter of 'he doesn't have help', because nobody is double-teaming this guy. He's getting single coverage right now. Granted, having guys like LBJ and Wade open things up for guys like Allen, but when MJ was in Washington, the ball was going through him. When Kareem was leading the Lakers to championships in his late 30's, he was their anchor. I just find it odd that his shooting touch has gone and his post game isn't that effective because he was SO good at those things before.

Do you even watch Laker games?

Tony_Starks
01-08-2016, 03:51 PM
Apologies if it came off snarky, buy I very much stand by what I said. By peers Im talking superstar wings in or around his draft class. I'm talking all those guys in their prime the conversation at the time was very much "who's the best in the game Kobe, AI, TMac, Vince, Ray" peers. Position doesn't matter, those were the people neck and neck for best wing at the time. That conversation went on for a while until he clearly separated himself from them. Marbury is a stretch to include, true, but still fair since the Lakers literally wanted to take him instead of Kobe.

Ray did not last longer than Kobe, that's absurd. He didn't start going deep into the playoffs consistently until past the prime of his career. If you add up all Kobes post season games he kills Ray in longevity. Not to mention it was much easier for Ray to be efficient as he got older since his role was limited, his teams were stacked, and he was NEVER the defender Kobe was...not even in his prime. As a legitimate peer Kobe crushes him.

Ginobli was NEVER Kobes peer, that's almost laughable. He's come off the bench nearly half his career and been having his minutes managed by Pop for at least 5 years. On a contender at that? Of course his limited role will be efficient, he could probably do what he's doing until he's 40 at this pace.

MJ is Kobes mentor, not peer.

My whole point is what is being done, at his age, history, mileage, has never been done at this level. The is no fair comparison to any current or even past player.

There's a few things that are inconsistent here.

One, you say Allen didn't last longer than Kobe? He did. Kobe is retiring this year and will have less than 1350 games total. Allen has 1300 regular season game. Include playoffs, Allen had 171 to Kobe's 200. But when you add Allen's college games to that (101), Allen is coming out ahead. Also, Allen played on contenders until his final season, and Kobe hasn't played in the post season in 4 years (that's since the age of 33). The fact that Allen was still a rotation played on a championship team, and a started on a contender before that, suggests that he was playing very well into the twilight of his career. And given that he was 38 when he retired, compared to Kobe's 37, and that even at 39 people were asking him to play for them, signifies that he was still playing at a high level. Nobody, other than a team that wants to cash in on his name and merchandise sales, would be asking Kobe to play for them next season. I'm not sure how you get that Allen didn't play longer, since between college and the NBA he played more games, AND played to an old age, but that seems like a quantifiable fact to me.

As for Manu not being a peer, he is certainly more of a peer than was Marbury. He and Kobe guarded each other in three playoff series. The played in the same conference. And Manu was a key player on a team that was a perennial contender every years since Kobe won his last title with Shaq. Kobe never played against Marbury in a playoff series. Is Kobe categorically better than Manu in every respect? Absolutely! Are they both HOF SGs who played in the same era and whose teams face each other multiple times in the playoffs? Yes. If that doesn't make him a peer, I don't know what does.

Other people and yourself have valid observations here. Kobe is not on a playoff team. He's carrying a heavy load. He doesn't have anybody to share it with. Those are valid points. I don't think that applies to Jordan, who still took on a heavy load, and even though he had Stackhouse his second season with Washington, they were a lottery team.

Now if you don't want to say Jordan is a peer, then I'm not sure who was. If you want to say that nobody played that long with that kind if mileage at such a high level? I'm not sure that comes anywhere close to being a valid argment. Kobe is 37. He hasn't played at an All-NBA level since he was 34. Lot's of 34-year-olds have made an All-NBA team. The level he is playing at now is extremely low, as was his play last year and the year before (due to injuries obviously). As for mileage, Jordan may have retired twice, but at 39 years old, he was one more ring than Kobe and only 30 games behind his total playoff games, and was himself over 1000 regular season games, not to mention 100+ college games. In terms of mileage, Jordan wasn't far off from Kobe and played at a much higher level at 39 than Kobe is at 37.

If we go outside of position (which perhaps isn't fair), then you can pick any number of players who were better that 37 with as much milage or more than Kobe. Kareem. Malone. At 39 Malone was the number one option on a team that made it into the playoffs in a deep west and shot over 46%. Kareem won the finals MVP at the age of 37, and at 39 had a higher scoring average with higher FG%.

Kobe is a phenom. No doubt. I just find it odd that a guy with a great post up game, and with a great mid-range jumper and fade away isn't doing better. I don't think it's just a matter of 'he doesn't have help', because nobody is double-teaming this guy. He's getting single coverage right now. Granted, having guys like LBJ and Wade open things up for guys like Allen, but when MJ was in Washington, the ball was going through him. When Kareem was leading the Lakers to championships in his late 30's, he was their anchor. I just find it odd that his shooting touch has gone and his post game isn't that effective because he was SO good at those things before.



Was taking you seriously until you said nobody would want Kobe to play for them next season. Start for someone else? No. Could he contribute to a contender next year in a limited role like the players you insist on comparing him to? Absolutely. (although his ego wouldn't allow it, but that's not the question at hand.)

Also as the above poster mentioned it's pretty obvious you don't watch Laker games, if you did you'd know the reason he doesn't take it to the hole anymore is his first step is virtually gone. His lift is also gone. He's not going around or over people anymore, merely trying to create enough space to launch.

Even still he's actually played pretty well recently, not well for his age, well for anybody.

Hotone1401
01-08-2016, 04:56 PM
I had a long discussion about this with a coworker. He's lost so much athleticism over the years and with the injuries that his first step doesn't beat people to the rim so he is not getting easy baskets. And his legs don't have the same lift so his jumper is flat. Plus he doesn't have Shaq or Gasol to draw ANY defense. It's a recipe for disaster.




Posts like this bother me. It is ignorant about the players career. Scorers like Ray Allen, Peja, Curry (not as much anymore), etc are described as if they spent their careers playing like Steve Kerr or Steve Novak. Those guys USED screens, yes. But they could create their own shots.



Love this post because it shows how long and impressive Kobe's career has been up to this point. It is part of what makes Kobe's career as a whole so special. Top 5 player in the league from 2001 to 2013. Not many players can make a claim with that many years behind it.

While I admit it's not so black and white as I suggested, Ray Allen and Peja were primarily spot up or catch and shoot players. It's ignorant for you to suggest that they carried anywhere near the amount of responsibility on the court as Kobe. I've watched all these players their entire careers.

Hotone1401
01-08-2016, 04:58 PM
You claim that people throw the term 'peers' around loosely, yet you lump Marbury in with Kobe? This is a straw man argument to be frank. I'm not comparing Kobe to shooting guards he got draft with, I'm comparing an elite or championship shooting guard with a long career to other elite or championship shooting guards with long careers. To suggest that Marbury is in that conversation, or somebody like McGrady who was hit early with huge injuries is in that category is intentionally misleading. It is likewise misleading to suggest that a 6'0 played who never shot the ball well (Iverson) is in the same category is Kobe is intentionally naive.

You are smarter than that.

The only guy you mentioned that would be a peer in this respect is Ray Allen, and surprise, he played until he was 38 (Kobe is only 37 now). So you are saying Kobe, who is three years younger than a 40 year old Allen, who played at an age where Kobe will be retired by, was 'outlasted' by Kobe? Hardly.

Allen, who is a fair point of comparison, shot .375 from beyond the arc, and over .500 from inside the arc. He also, at the age at which Kobe is at, was averaging double-digits on a championship team and his a key shot that forced an overtime and allow the Heat to win it all in game seven. So yes, if you want to compare Kobe to a 'peer' like Allen, Allen lasted longer (he played more years in college and the NBA than Kobe played) and was still an effective player on a contender in his last two seasons.

As to the other guys I compared him to, like Manu (who at the age of 36 was a key rotation player in a championship team) is a year OLDER than Kobe (has not been 'outlasted' by Kobe as you say) and is certainly a peer, and THIS season, a full year older than Kobe, is 18 points per36, is getting double digits in a key rotation role, and is shooting at much higher percentages than Kobe.

I comapred Koeb to PEERS. Michael Jordan. Ray Allen. You want to compare him with score-first points guards like Marbury and Allen, go ahead, but don't pretend like I'm the one using the term 'peer' loosely. If you care to justify that claim, I'd be curious to hear it.

The names I listed ARE legitimate peers. They are players who played at All-Star levels and had long careers. Your examples are just guys who happened to be drafted around the same time as Kobe, and are EXTREMELY misleading since you say Kobe 'outlasted' Allen, who played to an older age is is currently in his 40's (as is Allen Iverson mind you).

You comment comes across as snarky, and not constructive or critical at all. Kobe isn't playing against his draft class; he's playing against the legends of the game at this point. I asked legit question as to why his post game and mid-range jumper aren't working, making allowances that his athleticism has obviously slowed down his quickness, and you come in comparing him to Marbury and saying he's better than him?

Please.

You cannot compare Ray Allen to Kobe or MJ. Ray, while he was more capable in his younger days, he still never carried the offensive burden that Kobe has. Ray doesn't belong in this conversation.

Hotone1401
01-08-2016, 04:59 PM
1) None of the guys you mentioned are first option players.
2) None of the guys you mentioned has had that mileage comparable to Kobe's.
3) None of the guys you mentioned had went through serious injuries very recently.
4) None of the guys you mentioned have any pressure to be great.

This.

JasonJohnHorn
01-09-2016, 04:25 AM
Was taking you seriously until you said nobody would want Kobe to play for them next season. Start for someone else? No. Could he contribute to a contender next year in a limited role like the players you insist on comparing him to? Absolutely. (although his ego wouldn't allow it, but that's not the question at hand.)

Also as the above poster mentioned it's pretty obvious you don't watch Laker games, if you did you'd know the reason he doesn't take it to the hole anymore is his first step is virtually gone. His lift is also gone. He's not going around or over people anymore, merely trying to create enough space to launch.

Even still he's actually played pretty well recently, not well for his age, well for anybody.

I said that I understand with his reduced athleticism why he isn't taking it to the hole. Obviously with injuries and aging his first step is gone. The question is about the post game and jumper.

Redrum187
01-09-2016, 05:18 AM
Exactly. People throw the term "peers" around loosely but he has long left his true peers in the dust. None of them came close to 20 years and when they did retire most of them had been reduced to role players for years. The closest true peer to retire at a high level was Ray but even he was coming off the bench as a specialty player. Vince is still around and has been coming off the bench for what, 5 years or so?

Kobe had 28 points last night off 10/18 as a starter. None of his peers could've pulled that off in their wildest dreams in their last year, let alone if by some miracle they had lasted 20 years.

No wing player in history has ever done this on his terms at this level...may not happen again either.

I consider Dirk Nowitzki a peer of Kobe's. They are the same age. Dirk is still producing at a high level. I'd also say Tim Duncan is a peer to Kobe and is still an impact player. I'd take both over today's Kobe quite easily.

As for peers that are wings, you're right, there aren't many old wings still playing today.

edit: I just saw Steve Nash's numbers the year he was 37 and remembered how he was still a top PG in Phoenix at such an old age. I'd take that Nash over today's Kobe as well.

ewing
01-09-2016, 09:18 AM
[QUOTE=Tony_Starks;30653304]How are Allen Iverson, Ray Allen, Tracy McGrady, and Stephon Marbury shooting this season? Because those are his only real peers and they've long been extinct.


Steph is the man

FlashBolt
01-09-2016, 09:02 PM
I consider Dirk Nowitzki a peer of Kobe's. They are the same age. Dirk is still producing at a high level. I'd also say Tim Duncan is a peer to Kobe and is still an impact player. I'd take both over today's Kobe quite easily.

As for peers that are wings, you're right, there aren't many old wings still playing today.

edit: I just saw Steve Nash's numbers the year he was 37 and remembered how he was still a top PG in Phoenix at such an old age. I'd take that Nash over today's Kobe as well.

PF's/C's can generally play up to an old age while suffering the least dropoff. They sustain the least wear and tear on their bodies. Not even fair to compare PF's to Kobe's situation.

As for Nash, he was great but they played two completely different styles of basketball. Hell, Nash at age 37 will probably be more effective than LeBron at age 37, too. When you combine the entire package of everything mentioned, not many has had to deal with what Kobe has to presently. I think he's realized that and ultimately decided to hang it up.

Redrum187
01-09-2016, 09:36 PM
PF's/C's can generally play up to an old age while suffering the least dropoff. They sustain the least wear and tear on their bodies. Not even fair to compare PF's to Kobe's situation.

As for Nash, he was great but they played two completely different styles of basketball. Hell, Nash at age 37 will probably be more effective than LeBron at age 37, too. When you combine the entire package of everything mentioned, not many has had to deal with what Kobe has to presently. I think he's realized that and ultimately decided to hang it up.

I agree about the PF/C having better longevity, but they nevertheless were Kobe's peers. Unless there was an implication of SG/SF peers, which I may have missed.