PDA

View Full Version : What place would you take Wizards Jordan in the current NBA?



LOb0
01-06-2016, 02:25 PM
There's a one year NBA draft with all NBA players and Wizards Jordan, no players resign and the same draft happens the following year. When do you take Jordan?

Chronz
01-06-2016, 06:18 PM
R2 for revenue purposes
R3 for winning (Maybe Sooner)

tredigs
01-06-2016, 06:45 PM
R2 for revenue purposes
R3 for winning (Maybe Sooner)
Edit: N/M re-read the post.

tredigs
01-06-2016, 06:51 PM
Also this thread title and original post are completely different questions.

What's the point of this thread, anyway? I just had to comment because Chronz' comment made no sense to me.

Edit: N/M the two different questions confused me, I see what you two are asking/saying now and yeah that makes much more sense.

LOb0
01-06-2016, 06:58 PM
Round 1 would be 30 picks, hmm.

Curry
Bron
Westbrook
Durant
Davis
Harden
Butler
Griffin
Paul
Aldridge
Lenard
Boogie
Drummond
George
Wade
bosh
Vucevic
Melo

I know I left a few out but I think Jordan is a clear first round pick. I would even take him over a few of the listed players. Jordan was playing on a team of complete bums in Washington and the defense was pretty much locked on him.

LOb0
01-06-2016, 06:59 PM
Also this thread title and original post are completely different questions.

What's the point of this thread, anyway? I just had to comment because Chronz' comment made no sense to me.

I changed it as swapping a player was too complicated. Point is to rank old man Jordan in the current NBA

Redrum187
01-06-2016, 07:06 PM
That's really hard to say. I'd take Gordon Hayward over Wizard's Michael Jordan though.

LOb0
01-06-2016, 07:08 PM
That's really hard to say. I'd take Gordon Hayward over Wizard's Michael Jordan though.

That's insulting..

tredigs
01-06-2016, 07:08 PM
Round 1 would be 30 picks, hmm.

Curry
Bron
Westbrook
Durant
Davis
Harden
Butler
Griffin
Paul
Aldridge
Lenard
Boogie
Drummond
George
Wade
bosh
Vucevic
Melo

I know I left a few out but I think Jordan is a clear first round pick. I would even take him over a few of the listed players. Jordan was playing on a team of complete bums in Washington and the defense was pretty much locked on him.
You're leaving out a lot of guys who are clearly better than Wizards Jordan. From the Wizards themselves, John Wall, for one. Kyle Lowry and Reggie Jackson to name 2 other East PG's better than that MJ. Klay Thompson? Draymond Green? Both definitely better on both ends. Millsap and Horford. I'd rather have guys like Gordon Hayward and Nic Batum as well. Jordan was pretty good on the Wizards, definitely not great. Think Tyreke Evans as a rookie level impact.


That's insulting..
A very good shooter/all around player who's going to give you a lot more defensively than Mike could? No, it's not. Jordan was not that good of a player on the Wizards dude.

Redrum187
01-06-2016, 07:10 PM
That's insulting..

To Hayward or Jordan?

Redrum187
01-06-2016, 07:17 PM
I'm having a hard time deciding between DeMar DeRozan and Wizard's Michael Jordan.

Both are non shooters and not spectacular defensively. DeRozan is definitely the more offensively efficient player but Jordan was the superior rebounder and player-maker. I'm curious who others would take between these two.

LOb0
01-06-2016, 07:27 PM
You're leaving out a lot of guys who are clearly better than Wizards Jordan. From the Wizards themselves, John Wall, for one. Kyle Lowry and Reggie Jackson to name 2 other East PG's better than that MJ. Klay Thompson? Draymond Green? Both definitely better on both ends. Millsap and Horford. I'd rather have guys like Gordon Hayward and Nic Batum as well. Jordan was pretty good on the Wizards, definitely not great. Think Tyreke Evans as a rookie level impact.


A very good shooter/all around player who's going to give you a lot more defensively than Mike could? No, it's not. Jordan was not that good of a player on the Wizards dude.


I would take Jordan over everyone you named. You're underrating him imo. Why are people acting like Jordan was some crippled guy that couldn't play defense? He wasn't great but he could still play D. Also he was 38-40 playing on a D-league level team. If he had some even avarage players I'm sure he would have been a lot better. KWAME BROWN.

LanceUpperCut
01-06-2016, 07:57 PM
I'm having a hard time deciding between DeMar DeRozan and Wizard's Michael Jordan.

Both are non shooters and not spectacular defensively. DeRozan is definitely the more offensively efficient player but Jordan was the superior rebounder and player-maker. I'm curious who others would take between these two.

People are underrating Demar big time this season. Take a look at the numbers.

tredigs
01-06-2016, 08:16 PM
I would take Jordan over everyone you named. You're underrating him imo. Why are people acting like Jordan was some crippled guy that couldn't play defense? He wasn't great but he could still play D. Also he was 38-40 playing on a D-league level team. If he had some even avarage players I'm sure he would have been a lot better. KWAME BROWN.

You'd take him over John Wall, Draymond Green, etc? Then you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about when it comes to basketball and there's no point in continuing this. The level of value of players like that have over old-man MJ is massive.

flea
01-06-2016, 08:20 PM
He could still score well, he had a nice old man's game. He'd be the best 6th man on any team, and he'd be a better complementary swing man than a lot of starters. Problem is he'd want/need the ball a lot. I'd rather him be the ballhandler on my 2nd unit than try to work in a scorer with old legs to my starting unit.

basch152
01-06-2016, 08:35 PM
I'm having a hard time deciding between DeMar DeRozan and Wizard's Michael Jordan.

Both are non shooters and not spectacular defensively. DeRozan is definitely the more offensively efficient player but Jordan was the superior rebounder and player-maker. I'm curious who others would take between these two.

You realized jordan developed his shot to quite a high level later in his career, right?

Chronz
01-06-2016, 08:56 PM
That's really hard to say. I'd take Gordon Hayward over Wizard's Michael Jordan though.

You trying to win or build for the future here?

Redrum187
01-06-2016, 09:06 PM
You realized jordan developed his shot to quite a high level later in his career, right?

I checked his TS% (.480) and shooting for the seasons he was with the Wizards, it was pretty terrible.

From 3-10 feet he was 32.9% and from from 3PT he was 24.1%. Furthermore, because of his lack of shooting ability with the Wizards, he averaged less than 1 3PT attempt per game. I'm not sure which aspect of shooting you're referencing that he raised it to such a "high level".

Redrum187
01-06-2016, 09:08 PM
You trying to win or build for the future here?

I was trying to target regular season wins. If it was a rental for postseason, I think he gets a lot more value though.

Phantom Dreamer
01-06-2016, 09:18 PM
Well, through the Wizards' first 46 games, Jordan was putting up a 25/6/5 line. I believe he had played all but one game. The first season with Washington was derailed when he bumped knees with Etan Thomas. Had he stayed healthy we might have seen a Wizards/Lakers match up in the 2002 Finals.

tredigs
01-06-2016, 09:28 PM
Well, through the Wizards' first 46 games, Jordan was putting up a 25/6/5 line. I believe he had played all but one game. The first season with Washington was derailed when he bumped knees with Etan Thomas. Had he stayed healthy we might have seen a Wizards/Lakers match up in the 2002 Finals.

He didn't even miss a game, it wasn't a big deal. He just got tired as the season wore on. Dude was averaging 24 shots a night to get his 25 points during that span, we call that a chucker. And I remember it well, despite a few outlier/awesome vintage performances, it was not very pretty. Plus his perimeter D was cooked.

LOb0
01-06-2016, 09:34 PM
You'd take him over John Wall, Draymond Green, etc? Then you have absolutely no clue what you're talking about when it comes to basketball and there's no point in continuing this. The level of value of players like that have over old-man MJ is massive.

Draymond yes. Wall is debatable. I'm not sure how great Draymond is on a below average team.

LOb0
01-06-2016, 09:38 PM
I checked his TS% (.480) and shooting for the seasons he was with the Wizards, it was pretty terrible.

From 3-10 feet he was 32.9% and from from 3PT he was 24.1%. Furthermore, because of his lack of shooting ability with the Wizards, he averaged less than 1 3PT attempt per game. I'm not sure which aspect of shooting you're referencing that he raised it to such a "high level".

For the record he was jacking up a lot of terrible shots because he came to a 19 win team. People really underrate just how awful those Wizards teams were.

Phantom Dreamer
01-06-2016, 10:35 PM
Well, through the Wizards' first 46 games, Jordan was putting up a 25/6/5 line. I believe he had played all but one game. The first season with Washington was derailed when he bumped knees with Etan Thomas. Had he stayed healthy we might have seen a Wizards/Lakers match up in the 2002 Finals.

He didn't even miss a game, it wasn't a big deal. He just got tired as the season wore on. Dude was averaging 24 shots a night to get his 25 points during that span, we call that a chucker. And I remember it well, despite a few outlier/awesome vintage performances, it was not very pretty. Plus his perimeter D was cooked.He didn't miss a game his second year with the Wizards, I'm referring to the 2001-02 season. Had he stayed healthy, the Wizards probably come out of the East that first season. Floor Jordan and Rip Hamilton were as good as any 1-2 punch in that conference.
Last 20 games prior to knee injury
27.5 PPG 6.4 REB 5.2 AST 44% FG
Last 10 games prior to knee injury
29.7 PPG 6.6 REB 6.1 AST 47% FG

He was just finding his groove after a slow start. In the last 16 games he and Rip Hamilton played together, the Wizards were 15-1.

valade16
01-07-2016, 12:35 PM
I checked his TS% (.480) and shooting for the seasons he was with the Wizards, it was pretty terrible.

From 3-10 feet he was 32.9% and from from 3PT he was 24.1%. Furthermore, because of his lack of shooting ability with the Wizards, he averaged less than 1 3PT attempt per game. I'm not sure which aspect of shooting you're referencing that he raised it to such a "high level".

First, TS% doesn't really tell us anything about shooting, unless Shaq, DeAndre and Tyson Chandler are good shooters now.

Second, he did shoot 43% from 10-16 ft and 41.7% from 16-23 ft.

While that isn't elite, it's not terrible either. He was a good mid-range shooter, at that point that was about the only thing he was still good at as a scorer.

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 01:22 PM
You're leaving out a lot of guys who are clearly better than Wizards Jordan. From the Wizards themselves, John Wall, for one. Kyle Lowry and Reggie Jackson to name 2 other East PG's better than that MJ. Klay Thompson? Draymond Green? Both definitely better on both ends. Millsap and Horford. I'd rather have guys like Gordon Hayward and Nic Batum as well. Jordan was pretty good on the Wizards, definitely not great. Think Tyreke Evans as a rookie level impact.


A very good shooter/all around player who's going to give you a lot more defensively than Mike could? No, it's not. Jordan was not that good of a player on the Wizards dude.


I would take Jordan over everyone you named. You're underrating him imo.

Haha what?

tredigs
01-07-2016, 02:24 PM
He didn't miss a game his second year with the Wizards, I'm referring to the 2001-02 season. Had he stayed healthy, the Wizards probably come out of the East that first season. Floor Jordan and Rip Hamilton were as good as any 1-2 punch in that conference.
Last 20 games prior to knee injury
27.5 PPG 6.4 REB 5.2 AST 44% FG
Last 10 games prior to knee injury
29.7 PPG 6.6 REB 6.1 AST 47% FG

He was just finding his groove after a slow start. In the last 16 games he and Rip Hamilton played together, the Wizards were 15-1.

I gotchya, but your #'s are off. I'm refreshing my memory and looking at the stats right now. In the last 20 games prior to the injury (53rd game of the season) I have him averaging 25.1/5.8/5.6 on 23.4 FGA. Those are young MJ level FGA's and nowhere close to his usual PPG #'s due to the fact that he was shooting them at 43/25/76. And the last 10 games before the injury he was down to 22 PPG, not 29. And they were 27-26. They weren't challenging anybody for the title.

Anyway, old men get hurt. That's a big reason why their #'s fall. He was no different.

Hawkeye15
01-07-2016, 02:32 PM
look at how many mpg he played haha. Wow

He was at best a replacement level player his 2 years in Washington. Wasn't anywhere near the same Jordan that retired, he was heavier, slower, his body broke down, it happens. If you are drafting him high at all, you are stupid.

Tony_Starks
01-07-2016, 03:24 PM
Where's Joe Johnson at these days? I'd take MJ over the Joe Johnsons of the world...that's about it.

Bostonjorge
01-07-2016, 03:26 PM
Well, through the Wizards' first 46 games, Jordan was putting up a 25/6/5 line. I believe he had played all but one game. The first season with Washington was derailed when he bumped knees with Etan Thomas. Had he stayed healthy we might have seen a Wizards/Lakers match up in the 2002 Finals.

In the east that year 40 wins a losing record got you in the playoffs. Yet wizards still missed it. They had like only 30 wins that year. Jordan wizards never made the playoffs. Jordan should of went to New Jersey and play with Kid.

Phantom Dreamer
01-07-2016, 03:32 PM
They were 37-45 both seasons. Had Jordan remained healthy (relatively) Washington makes it to the conference finals minimum.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 03:45 PM
Such a joke. Game is played completely different and Jordan would have a much tougher time dealing with the athleticism of guards/forwards. It wouldn't translate as well. Their record would be worse and I have no doubt they are definitely not making it to the conference finals minimum.. that is stupid. As great as Jordan was (amazing at that age for the Wizards), he would not know what to do when he has to go against the younger guys.

Tony_Starks
01-07-2016, 04:58 PM
They were 37-45 both seasons. Had Jordan remained healthy (relatively) Washington makes it to the conference finals minimum.


He was healthy, relatively. MJ was no longer capable of carrying a team to the playoffs, not even in the weak east.

Not a knock on him at all tho, the dude was what 40? Just to be able to put up the numbers he did was remarkable, I don't care how he did it.

Chronz
01-07-2016, 05:34 PM
Can't help but feel like you guys are understating his impact. Dude was inefficient but it was also during the toughest defensive era too. He was still an impact defender at his age and made others better by carrying that load. I cosign on his injury really screwing him that first year

Redrum187
01-07-2016, 06:09 PM
First, TS% doesn't really tell us anything about shooting, unless Shaq, DeAndre and Tyson Chandler are good shooters now.

Second, he did shoot 43% from 10-16 ft and 41.7% from 16-23 ft.

While that isn't elite, it's not terrible either. He was a good mid-range shooter, at that point that was about the only thing he was still good at as a scorer.

TS% tell us overall efficiency (shooting is only 1 variable though) but you're right, it doesn't tell us his shooting location (which is why I included it).

I believe mid-range shots are the worst shots in the NBA. If he shot that 100 times in a game, he would yield 86 points (not counting foul calls). If someone else shot 100 3 pointers, making only 29 of them (29%), he yields more points in spite of shooting a lower FG%. I think we would call someone who shoots 29% from 3 a chucker when over 70% of his high volume shots come from there. Over 70% of MJ's shots came from 10-16 and 16 < 3PT. This is why TS% has some relevance because it reflects his inability to shoot as well as be efficient... ultra high mid-range game with high volume on (at least in my opinion) terrible percentages.

In any event, we could discuss and dispute the use of "terrible" and come to an understanding and agreement that Jordan never "raised his shooting to a high level" with the Wizards.

JasonJohnHorn
01-07-2016, 06:11 PM
I think the second season there is clearly better than the first.

Where would he rank today? Looking at how many minutes guys like Oladipa or Michael Carter Williams have been getting since their rookie seasons (though MCW is much improved his year), it is likely that Jordan would have certainly been getting 30+ minutes a game.

37 minutes? Likely not.... top ten shooting guard? Likely. Top-ten small forward? Less likely.


He was getting 6 boards a game and nearly 4 assists, and was still a defensive presence. His value as a two-way player would ensure a relatively high ranking in the league and starting minutes.

His percentages.... Chronz has a good point when he refers to the defence in the league at the time. The average 2t% was 46% that year, Jordan was 1% below that. He had a higher 2p% than 6 teams and was on pace with his own team.

On a better team, he'd get more open looks. Kobe only shot 46% that year (from inside the arc) and McGrady wasn't much higher at 48% (1 and 3% about MJ respectively). Iverson, who was All-NBA 2nd team that year shot 44% inside the arc. So in the context of that, he wasn't too far off from where the league leaders were, and was higher than some of the most celebrated players.


How would he fair today? Hard to say. But I imagine 17-6-4 would not be unseasonable with 36 minutes a game, and 12-4-3 in 30 or so would be within reach. I don't doubt that were he playing on a contender with a supporting cast in a supporting role, he'd have higher percentages. Look at guys like LBJ with and without a supporting cast.

JasonJohnHorn
01-07-2016, 06:18 PM
Such a joke. Game is played completely different and Jordan would have a much tougher time dealing with the athleticism of guards/forwards. It wouldn't translate as well. Their record would be worse and I have no doubt they are definitely not making it to the conference finals minimum.. that is stupid. As great as Jordan was (amazing at that age for the Wizards), he would not know what to do when he has to go against the younger guys.

Do you really think the game was so different then? That was just a year before LBJ was drafted. Kobe was in his prime then. The Spurs were in first in their division with the same coach and same core hey have now (with a couple of pieces added to offset the aging of key players and the loss of the likes of D-Rob). The Mavs were a 50-win team with Dirk as their main man; same as now. I would agree that the league is very different than when Jordan won his first three rings, but I wouldn't think that the league is much different than when he was playing in Washington.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 06:26 PM
Do you really think the game was so different then? That was just a year before LBJ was drafted. Kobe was in his prime then. The Spurs were in first in their division with the same coach and same core hey have now (with a couple of pieces added to offset the aging of key players and the loss of the likes of D-Rob). The Mavs were a 50-win team with Dirk as their main man; same as now. I would agree that the league is very different than when Jordan won his first three rings, but I wouldn't think that the league is much different than when he was playing in Washington.

Yes. I think Jordan would have a more difficult time transitioning to the three point line overload. I think the system he played in favored his type of game more. The players today are for sure quicker and more athletic than those of the past (even if it is only thirteen years ago). I'm not slighting Jordan but he never saw Westbrook/Curry play.

KnicksorBust
01-07-2016, 06:35 PM
Tough question but his pedigree and defense move him up higher than his TS% brings him down. His situation with teammates and injuries can partially explain that.

I would probably rank SF

Lbj
Durant
Kawhi
Pg
Melo

Then I think he is on the next tier.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 06:36 PM
Tough question but his pedigree and defense move him up higher than his TS% brings him down. His situation with teammates and injuries can partially explain that.

I would probably rank SF

Lbj
Durant
Kawhi
Pg
Melo

Then I think he is on the next tier.

Just realized the SF spot is probably the best position in basketball right now. He'll be exposed in every one of those matchups you mentioned above. Players would have a "tough" time guarding MJ but he would be way out of it trying to guard any of the guys you mentioned. Just wouldn't work.

LOb0
01-07-2016, 06:38 PM
Just realized the SF spot is probably the best position in basketball right now. He'll be exposed in every one of those matchups you mentioned above. Players would have a "tough" time guarding MJ but he would be way out of it trying to guard any of the guys you mentioned. Just wouldn't work.

You'd have him guard the 2 in todays NBA as its the weakest position,

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 06:45 PM
You'd have him guard the 2 in todays NBA as its the weakest position,

I remember MJ playing the 3 during his Wizards days. Anyhow, I don't think Jordan would be guarding the 2 against those guys mentioned. He would probably be too competitive and take the challenge of guarding those 3's up.

Phantom Dreamer
01-07-2016, 06:48 PM
Such a joke. Game is played completely different and Jordan would have a much tougher time dealing with the athleticism of guards/forwards. It wouldn't translate as well. Their record would be worse and I have no doubt they are definitely not making it to the conference finals minimum.. that is stupid. As great as Jordan was (amazing at that age for the Wizards), he would not know what to do when he has to go against the younger guys.I was referring to the 2001-02 season, I have no idea what you're talking about.

BuckWilliams
01-07-2016, 06:49 PM
There's a one year NBA draft with all NBA players and Wizards Jordan, no players resign and the same draft happens the following year. When do you take Jordan?

About 3rd probably.

Some of that is me being a fan and just not liking certain players in the nba today. But I always have great instincts at winning

Green
Leonard
Jordan
Duncan
Durant
etc
etc

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 06:52 PM
I was referring to the 2001-02 season, I have no idea what you're talking about.

That isn't the question.

LOb0
01-07-2016, 06:53 PM
I remember MJ playing the 3 during his Wizards days. Anyhow, I don't think Jordan would be guarding the 2 against those guys mentioned. He would probably be too competitive and take the challenge of guarding those 3's up.


lol clearly you don't remember when Kobe dropped 55 on the Wiz. Jordan didn't get any where near that. But perhaps that was due to him being 40 and having to carry an entire offense. He couldn't do both.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 06:56 PM
lol clearly you don't remember when Kobe dropped 55 on the Wiz. Jordan didn't get any where near that. But perhaps that was due to him being 40 and having to carry an entire offense. He couldn't do both.

"probably." I still think he plays SF just like Kobe has done.

Sanjay
01-07-2016, 07:32 PM
About 3rd probably.

Some of that is me being a fan and just not liking certain players in the nba today. But I always have great instincts at winning

Green
Leonard
Jordan
Duncan
Durant
etc
etc

'The same draft happens the following year' so wouldn't you have LeBron first then? I assume your draft order is as if there was just a one-off draft so wouldn't Davis be at the top?

Chronz
01-07-2016, 08:09 PM
I think the second season there is clearly better than the first.

I thought so too but at the same time, I want to discount the games where he was first adjusting to the league and coming off the bench (iirc). His play before the injuries mounted was inspiring and more efficient than how he finished.

Phantom Dreamer
01-08-2016, 07:14 PM
I was referring to the 2001-02 season, I have no idea what you're talking about.

That isn't the question.You didn't ask me a question.

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 10:41 PM
You didn't ask me a question.

http://forums.prosportsdaily.com/showthread.php?903399-What-place-would-you-take-Wizards-Jordan-in-the-current-NBA/page3

You tell me what the question is...

ewing
01-09-2016, 09:31 AM
Such a joke. Game is played completely different and Jordan would have a much tougher time dealing with the athleticism of guards/forwards. It wouldn't translate as well. Their record would be worse and I have no doubt they are definitely not making it to the conference finals minimum.. that is stupid. As great as Jordan was (amazing at that age for the Wizards), he would not know what to do when he has to go against the younger guys.

i remember when they used to use round balls

c.c.
01-09-2016, 02:05 PM
Way before Kobe