PDA

View Full Version : How Bad is the NBA Right Now?



shep33
01-03-2016, 10:21 AM
I feel like the quality of basketball is awful. Teams haven't been playing up to expectations in the west. The KP movement in New York died down. The East is a one horse race with the cavs being way better than anyone else out there. Also the story lines are pretty boring. I think Miami was so good for the NBA with the Big Three. A lot of people looked at them as the villain, which I kinda don't get, but at least it made things interesting.

Only teams that are keeping it alive IMO are the Spurs who are just playing fantastic ball, especially at home, and the Dubs who are slaughtering teams.

Outside of Towns, no rookie has looked that special. KP for a little.

The other cool story line has been Paul George and his amazing season after recovery. Kobes retirement is cool (should've came a year ago).

hugepatsfan
01-03-2016, 12:11 PM
I feel like if you pick anyone other than GS, SA or CLE to win right now you're just trying to be different. There's really no good argument for anyone else except maybe OKC. It's hard for me to get excited about the league as a whole when not a damn thing that happens until the conference finals or semis at the earliest matters at all. I still like to watch the Celtics to see our team progress, but even my excitement for that is tempered by the fact that our team development doesn't really mean squat. We either need to land a star in FA or get lucky in the lottery so the games we play are really meaningless. For me, the NBA isn't even remotely interesting in relation to other sports.

DanG
01-03-2016, 12:23 PM
It's because of the ring chasing, you have so many good players joining teams that were already great before them. It has really made the NBA unbalanced.

I gotta say I want to see more teams like the Pacers are right now. It's Paul George's team, he leads them every night, if they play a great team he has to actually be GREAT if they want to have a chance to win. But mostly right now the superstar level players have such great teams they can pretty much coast the whole regular season. It's boring, even if players like LeBron, KD, Kawhi, CP3, Curry face each other, they can have a horrible game and still get the victory. I wanna see superstars go at it, talk trash, make it a rivalry. Now, I can't blame KD, Westy or Curry because their team was built through draft. I'm just saying there's no way a top 15 player like LMA should join a top 5 team and there's no way players like Kevin Love, LBJ and Kyrie should team up. They are all arguably top 20 players in the NBA or if Love isn't then he is pretty damn close. Hell some of you thought Love was a top 10 player before he went to the Cavs. I'm just saying if there wasn't any if you can't beat them join them mentality between franchise players in the NBA we would have more rivalries and we would not be able to tell ECF and WCF matchups before the season even starts. If a player has the ability to turn a mediocre to a contender instantly then I wanna see it.

DanG
01-03-2016, 01:14 PM
I feel like if you pick anyone other than GS, SA or CLE to win right now you're just trying to be different. There's really no good argument for anyone else except maybe OKC. It's hard for me to get excited about the league as a whole when not a damn thing that happens until the conference finals or semis at the earliest matters at all. I still like to watch the Celtics to see our team progress, but even my excitement for that is tempered by the fact that our team development doesn't really mean squat. We either need to land a star in FA or get lucky in the lottery so the games we play are really meaningless. For me, the NBA isn't even remotely interesting in relation to other sports.

Agreed.

If some team in the East blows out the Cavs every game in the regular season no one give a **** because we all know LeBron was in 30% mode. It shouldn't be like that.

Toronto is 2nd in the east, does anyone give them a chance to win the title? No, because it's going to be Lowry against LeBron, Kyrie, Love in the playoffs.

Gander13SM
01-03-2016, 01:56 PM
I think it's brilliant. I love it.

Only issue is with Cleveland being clear front runners for the east but face it, we're talking about LeBron. It is what it is.

There's very rarely more than 3/4 contenders. We like to there is a lot of the time but realistically we're usually fooling ourselves.

Gander13SM
01-03-2016, 01:57 PM
And "story lines" ??? Smh. This isn't WWE this is a real sport. There's no scripted story lines. Lmao.

Anyway. I just wanted to add I think that some of the west getting a little worse and some of the east getting a little better has actually produced the best level of parity we've seen across the league for a long time.

Gander13SM
01-03-2016, 01:59 PM
Also, worth noting that "teaming up" has always occurred. It's not a new thing.

Chronz
01-03-2016, 02:46 PM
Its seems that way because people place too much emphasis on the winner, instead of appreciating the other 99% of what happens in the league. I know winning is the grand prize but the NBA has always had a few top powers and little else around that. I actually think the league has more parity now than it ever has, but you can never prevent a small few teams from separating itself from the pack with FA.

If we would just admit the league is better when there are more contenders (even if they are solely the bigger markets) and allow the rest to suck, then we'd have a better product by eliminating rfa and a hard cap, but no, we have to save poor lil markets.

Im hopeful for an upset this year tho

Scoots
01-03-2016, 02:55 PM
Also, worth noting that "teaming up" has always occurred. It's not a new thing.
That was coming from a lakers fan ... You can bet his tune would change if durant and lebron chose to go to la next season.

Also the level of the nba looks very different as a lakers fan than it does as a gs, sa, or cle fan ... Which makes total sense.

Pierzynski4Prez
01-03-2016, 03:28 PM
I feel like if you pick anyone other than GS, SA or CLE to win right now you're just trying to be different. There's really no good argument for anyone else except maybe OKC. It's hard for me to get excited about the league as a whole when not a damn thing that happens until the conference finals or semis at the earliest matters at all. I still like to watch the Celtics to see our team progress, but even my excitement for that is tempered by the fact that our team development doesn't really mean squat. We either need to land a star in FA or get lucky in the lottery so the games we play are really meaningless. For me, the NBA isn't even remotely interesting in relation to other sports.

This about sums it up for me.

Hawkeye15
01-03-2016, 07:55 PM
I feel like if you pick anyone other than GS, SA or CLE to win right now you're just trying to be different. There's really no good argument for anyone else except maybe OKC. It's hard for me to get excited about the league as a whole when not a damn thing that happens until the conference finals or semis at the earliest matters at all. I still like to watch the Celtics to see our team progress, but even my excitement for that is tempered by the fact that our team development doesn't really mean squat. We either need to land a star in FA or get lucky in the lottery so the games we play are really meaningless. For me, the NBA isn't even remotely interesting in relation to other sports.

outside a few outliers, there are always only 3-4 teams that are contenders.

I do get the parity in the NFL is unmatched. But don't act like the NBA isn't always like this...

DanG
01-03-2016, 07:58 PM
That was coming from a lakers fan ... You can bet his tune would change if durant and lebron chose to go to la next season.

Also the level of the nba looks very different as a lakers fan than it does as a gs, sa, or cle fan ... Which makes total sense.

I don't have to be a Lakers fan to see the NBA is boring. As an NBA fan there are very few games to get excited about and that's when OKC, SAS, CLE or GSW face each other. Before the big 3 the East had Boston, Orlando and Cleveland with prime Wade's Heat as an outside threat for several years and you really couldn't tell who was gonna win before they actually played in the playoffs. Boston even beat Lebron's team while being the 4th seed in 2010. And the West has always been exciting, upsets happened more frequently and I even remember the Rockets without Yao push my Lakers to 7 games in 2010.

Right now, there are 3-4 teams in the East who are capable of winning ONE game against the Cavs in the playoffs and I would say only Chicago and Miami have a chance to push it to 6.

GSW is already so good it's pretty much between them and SAS at this point. Now, what if KD joins them next year? It would be pretty similar to Miami's big 3. Two top 3 players + a Top 3 PF. We would officially be down to one contender.

Bartlee23
01-03-2016, 08:29 PM
Also, worth noting that "teaming up" has always occurred. It's not a new thing.

Please remind me what teams were "teaming up" players in the 80's and 90's? With the exception of maybe a few bench players I don't remember Bird joining forces with Magic, Jordan with Barkley, Duncan with Whoever ??? All I can recall is a few players past their prime looking for a ring. If I am wrong please let me know I may have forgot.

I do believe this has become a norm in the last 15 years or so but again I may be wrong?

Chronz
01-03-2016, 08:35 PM
Please remind me what teams were "teaming up" players in the 80's and 90's? With the exception of maybe a few bench players I don't remember Bird joining forces with Magic, Jordan with Barkley, Duncan with Whoever ??? All I can recall is a few players past their prime looking for a ring. If I am wrong please let me know I may have forgot.

I do believe this has become a norm in the last 15 years or so but again I may be wrong?

Ummm Magic threatened to go back to College had anyone but the Lakers drafted him. Bird? LMFAO, dude had to wait 1 whole year before MORE of his HOF teammates came into play, hard to complain when your gifted that sort of help, especially when youve squandered alot of it circa 1985. MJ threatened to retire if they dare trade away his binkie Pippen so I dont see your point there either. Those guys didnt have to put up with much negligence.

As for Barkely, dude actually forced a trade TWICE. One time to a rising power in Phx, the other to join Hakeem and eventually Pippen, even took a MASSIVE paycut to do so. That they were too late is the only sin, since they stood no chance against the stacked opposition.

bucketss
01-03-2016, 09:02 PM
well if your a fan of a team whos not doing so well at the moment it might effect the way you see things. for me personally the nba hasn't been this enjoyable in years.

JasonJohnHorn
01-03-2016, 09:45 PM
The Warriors are playing at an historic level. The Spurs are playing like champs. The Thunder have two MVP candidates, and half the East is playing better than expected.

I would agree that some teams have been disappointing (Houston + Clippers) and that it is frustrating to see LBJ shooting so poorly this season, but I think there are a lot of great stories going on right now, and a lot fo great basketball.

NYMetros
01-03-2016, 09:53 PM
How is this year any different than the nba in say 2011? Heat were locks for the finals every year, and the West had 3 or 4 contenders. That's how it is now.

Bartlee23
01-04-2016, 01:10 AM
Ummm Magic threatened to go back to College had anyone but the Lakers drafted him. Bird? LMFAO, dude had to wait 1 whole year before MORE of his HOF teammates came into play, hard to complain when your gifted that sort of help, especially when youve squandered alot of it circa 1985. MJ threatened to retire if they dare trade away his binkie Pippen so I dont see your point there either. Those guys didnt have to put up with much negligence.

As for Barkely, dude actually forced a trade TWICE. One time to a rising power in Phx, the other to join Hakeem and eventually Pippen, even took a MASSIVE paycut to do so. That they were too late is the only sin, since they stood no chance against the stacked opposition.

Ok how does Magic or Bird "threatening" to do anything constitute forming a superteam? They were rookies who were good college players but in no way called up all-stars to play with them? Back then Boston and Los Angeles were the dominating teams and if anything that was a childish selfish move... not calling up the best players to form a team?

What does Jordan "threating to retire if Pippen was traded" have anything to do with the comment? Again remind me of the players Jordan called up to join forces? Barkley was more a pain in the *** then anything but the guy again never called players to go join forces on another team? What you have said has nothing to do with the comment?

Players in the 80's and 90's wanted to beat the other great players, not join up with the best as free agents to form a superteam. This started within the last 15 years or so. Again show me a team that was made up of multiple allstars that left their team as a free agent and signed together to form a better team in the 80's and 90's? Players wanted to beat other all-stars, players weren't "friends" with each other, that is one of the reasons why a lot of people didn't like the superteams formed. You have proven nothing except a few irrelevant points about players that have nothing to do with forming teams.

shep33
01-04-2016, 02:10 AM
You know what I think it is for me? No rivalrys. Maybe outside of Clips-Grizz... It's pretty lame.

Another thing, there is no hates villain/team out there. We've had Boston, LA, and Miami... But really no team right now that everyone hates (that is good)

More-Than-Most
01-04-2016, 03:48 AM
The ring chasing is annoying and like I have stated its basically why the **** teams have to tank... If you wanna stop tanking you need to stop ring chasing because all these top players want to only go to top teams and that makes the top teams even further then the bad teams... Look at how well the Hawks and pacers are built from top to bottom but they dont stand a chance at a title for years and will just be stuck in mediocrity... You basically need to tank and luck into a superstar and build around him... Durant next year will do the same thing followed by westy the year after.

ewing
01-04-2016, 07:35 AM
Ummm Magic threatened to go back to College had anyone but the Lakers drafted him. Bird? LMFAO, dude had to wait 1 whole year before MORE of his HOF teammates came into play, hard to complain when your gifted that sort of help, especially when youve squandered alot of it circa 1985. MJ threatened to retire if they dare trade away his binkie Pippen so I dont see your point there either. Those guys didnt have to put up with much negligence.

As for Barkely, dude actually forced a trade TWICE. One time to a rising power in Phx, the other to join Hakeem and eventually Pippen, even took a MASSIVE paycut to do so. That they were too late is the only sin, since they stood no chance against the stacked opposition.


Magic went #1 overall and played his whole career with one team. Bird played his whole career with one 1 team. Your post makes no sense.

MonroeFAN
01-04-2016, 07:43 AM
So because the Lakers suck the NBA isn't fun to watch? The cavs aren't even close to being far and away the best team in the east and have lost at least once to most of the good teams who are in contention. The pistons are basically the only team in the east who has had their west coast trip already out of the way. Watch what happens when the other teams have to do it.

Gander13SM
01-04-2016, 12:58 PM
For those of you saying "guys didn't team up back in the day" you're either being disingenuous or lack some very important historical knowledge of the league. If it's the former you can skip this next paragraph as it's just a quick history lesson for the latter.

The fact of the matter is the a lot of these "Big 3s" we've seen as a result of stars teaming up were constructed in large part, through free agency. But unrestricted free agency didn't exist until 1988, hell the "free agency" that did exist was barely a free agency at all, not as we recognise it. A players entire future used to lie with the desire of his team. You were drafted or traded. For the most part that was it. I mean you could sign with another team at the end of a contract (in a sort of "restricted" free agency) but your former team would seek compensation from your new team, A LOT of compensation (for the time). This meant that if you were a truly great player, the odds of you going anywhere were slim unless management/coaching staff disliked you or you demanded a trade. Players couldn't just walk away from a team and sign with anyone they want to like they can now, we're never going to see a true example of anything like LeBron going to Miami. This doesn't mean players didn't WANT to team up, it was just way more difficult and the backlash from fans/media/team mates of demanding a trade to leave your current team and team up with a buddy if it ended up falling through... ouch. That's a big consequence.

Bearing all of that in mind, there are some clear examples of players trying to team up throughout history (in ways other than free agency). Moses Malone is a great example, maybe the best, you think it's a coincidence that after being bounced out of the first round in the last year of his contract at the same time Houston was changing ownership that he decided to try and sign with Philly? A 76ers team that had just been to the NBA finals but lost due to the Lakers big man (KAJ)?



Not to mention in more recent years, an ageing Barkley and Drexler went ring chasing in Houston with Olajuwon. Or Rodman? Who was bitterly unhappy in San Antonio and had been demanding trades (or more money) for long enough, he forced his way out... to a Chicago team who's own superstar had been complaining about the lack of defensive big men that they had after the Orlando front court tore them apart in the post season.


Whether it's through demanding trades (Dwight, Love) or through free agency. Great players have always found a way to team up.

And it shouldn't matter. Even if the teams were simply drafting brilliant players or the GMs were making trades or the players organised it themselves. These "Big 3s" and "Big 2s" have always existed. That hasn't changed.

All that has changed is players are more commonly taking it into their own hands now... because they can.

They're all chasing a legacy and we have nobody to blame but ourselves. It's the "fans" that judge players based on how many rings they've won, do you really think MJ would still be GOAT in many peoples minds if he had one ring? Or none? These players are only doing what their GMs were too incompetent to do themselves.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
01-04-2016, 01:31 PM
You guys also have to remember back in the day there were less teams. So less teams means more teams were stacked nicely to begin with. Back in the day there was no Magic, Grizzlies, Raptors, Heat, Hornets if talking pre 90's era. Also kids coming out of school after one year. Where seems like old days some of these guys were ready in NBA first day in after 4 years of college hoops. Now days these kids are one and done of school and are barely ready till their rookie contract is up before they get good.

Hawkeye15
01-04-2016, 01:58 PM
Might I add, (sorry shep), a Laker fan is bringing this up when his team sucks.

Hawkeye15
01-04-2016, 01:59 PM
For those of you saying "guys didn't team up back in the day" you're either being disingenuous or lack some very important historical knowledge of the league. If it's the former you can skip this next paragraph as it's just a quick history lesson for the latter.

The fact of the matter is the a lot of these "Big 3s" we've seen as a result of stars teaming up were constructed in large part, through free agency. But unrestricted free agency didn't exist until 1988, hell the "free agency" that did exist was barely a free agency at all, not as we recognise it. A players entire future used to lie with the desire of his team. You were drafted or traded. For the most part that was it. I mean you could sign with another team at the end of a contract (in a sort of "restricted" free agency) but your former team would seek compensation from your new team, A LOT of compensation (for the time). This meant that if you were a truly great player, the odds of you going anywhere were slim unless management/coaching staff disliked you or you demanded a trade. Players couldn't just walk away from a team and sign with anyone they want to like they can now, we're never going to see a true example of anything like LeBron going to Miami. This doesn't mean players didn't WANT to team up, it was just way more difficult and the backlash from fans/media/team mates of demanding a trade to leave your current team and team up with a buddy if it ended up falling through... ouch. That's a big consequence.

Bearing all of that in mind, there are some clear examples of players trying to team up throughout history (in ways other than free agency). Moses Malone is a great example, maybe the best, you think it's a coincidence that after being bounced out of the first round in the last year of his contract at the same time Houston was changing ownership that he decided to try and sign with Philly? A 76ers team that had just been to the NBA finals but lost due to the Lakers big man (KAJ)?



Not to mention in more recent years, an ageing Barkley and Drexler went ring chasing in Houston with Olajuwon. Or Rodman? Who was bitterly unhappy in San Antonio and had been demanding trades (or more money) for long enough, he forced his way out... to a Chicago team who's own superstar had been complaining about the lack of defensive big men that they had after the Orlando front court tore them apart in the post season.


Whether it's through demanding trades (Dwight, Love) or through free agency. Great players have always found a way to team up.

And it shouldn't matter. Even if the teams were simply drafting brilliant players or the GMs were making trades or the players organised it themselves. These "Big 3s" and "Big 2s" have always existed. That hasn't changed.

All that has changed is players are more commonly taking it into their own hands now... because they can.

They're all chasing a legacy and we have nobody to blame but ourselves. It's the "fans" that judge players based on how many rings they've won, do you really think MJ would still be GOAT in many peoples minds if he had one ring? Or none? These players are only doing what their GMs were too incompetent to do themselves.

you are missing the point. It only matters now because LeBron did it. Therefore the whole world sucks now.

Ironic?

tredigs
01-04-2016, 02:06 PM
I feel like the quality of basketball is awful. Teams haven't been playing up to expectations in the west. The KP movement in New York died down. The East is a one horse race with the cavs being way better than anyone else out there. Also the story lines are pretty boring. I think Miami was so good for the NBA with the Big Three. A lot of people looked at them as the villain, which I kinda don't get, but at least it made things interesting.

Only teams that are keeping it alive IMO are the Spurs who are just playing fantastic ball, especially at home, and the Dubs who are slaughtering teams.

Outside of Towns, no rookie has looked that special. KP for a little.

The other cool story line has been Paul George and his amazing season after recovery. Kobes retirement is cool (should've came a year ago).

Totally disagree. It's as high a quality of basketball on both ends as I've seen from top to bottom. Defensive schemes now are so impressive and yet offenses are better than ever at beating them. Sure you have teams like LAC and the Rox who are underperforming, but for those to be lower tier playoff teams in the West is going to make for some very interesting 1st round matchups if they turn it around and play how they've proven they can. And if OKC makes it into the playoffs with KD/Westbrook/Ibaka healthy, that team can absolutely damage anyone. We haven't seen that core all healthy in the playoffs for a long time though. And on the East side, the teams are finally all upping the anti enough to likely make the first round matchups watchable and entertaining again. As a bonus you have a team looking to challenge the All Time win total that some could argue would not be favored against another team in their own conference.

We have multiple players playing at historical levels, and a slew of players in their prime who will likely go down as top 50 All Time when it's all said and done. All while playing alongside multiple top 30 All Time players (Kobe/Duncan/KG/Wade/Dirk). Some on our their swan song, but there none the less.

And this rookie class is looking to shape up very favorably to most drafts. Not sure what you're talking about with any of your post, really.

Hawkeye15
01-04-2016, 02:10 PM
I do think it depends on what fan base you are from. Take GS fans for example. Um, they have sucked forever, and now have a powerhouse. Do you think they think the NBA is bad right now?

Down times for the Lakers, Knicks, Sixers, etc. I get that those fan bases provide a highly weighted amount of fans overall, but for some fan bases (I am a Wolves fan, times are better now than at any point since 2004), the league is just fine.

I also think the skill level, and pure art of basketball, is at an all time high.

still1ballin
01-04-2016, 02:25 PM
NBA needs the Lakers and Celtics back into the picture

Gander13SM
01-04-2016, 03:16 PM
you are missing the point. It only matters now because LeBron did it. Therefore the whole world sucks now.

Ironic?

LOL... fair enough.

Btw. 100% agree with what you said about the skill level and pure art of the game.

Scoots
01-04-2016, 03:53 PM
LOL... fair enough.

Btw. 100% agree with what you said about the skill level and pure art of the game.

Indeed ... and as far as I'm concerned I've had enough relevance from the Celtics, Knicks, and Lakers to last more than a lifetime :)

Daze9900
01-04-2016, 04:35 PM
Eh that's how it is this time of year, let's see what happens around the trade deadline.

ManRam
01-04-2016, 05:09 PM
partially because i've been busy, doing more productive things with my life and far more into the nfl than really ever before, i've watched SOOOO little basketball compared to...well...ever. watched the cavs v warriors game on christmas and maybe 4-5 magic games all year. it saddens me but also not really. there just aren't a ton of story lines that intrigue me right now...something i said last year but feels even more so this year. i'll certainly get into it come playoffs, but right now, i just don't care about much. the cavs, spurs, warriors and thunder are all great playoff story lines...i'll get into that.

even with the magic playing better (i think a bit flukish and i think their schedule is about to send them back below .500 in a hurry). sucks that they're finally decent and i for whatever reason don't care a ton. maybe i prefer torture.

but in the end, it has nothing to do with the product. players and teams are playing a smarter brand of basketball than ever, the athletes are obviously better than ever, and there is a lot of great talent, both veteran and young. i think my issue is more personal.

maybe there aren't as many great villains either.

Scoots
01-04-2016, 06:39 PM
The Clippers were supposed to be the villains ... but they are just doing themselves harm.

Lakers + Giants
01-04-2016, 06:49 PM
Im bored as well kind of, but i know i wouldn't be saying that if the lakers were good. Only thing i look forward to is Russell and Randle, and even then I've been disappointed in D'angelo.

Gander13SM
01-04-2016, 07:00 PM
Do people feel it's important for the league to have a "villain"?? Given that most of these "villains" are created by the media?

Scoots
01-04-2016, 07:33 PM
Do people feel it's important for the league to have a "villain"?? Given that most of these "villains" are created by the media?

Not me, but I do find it kind of fun to care about the other team losing rather than just my team winning. When the Warriors play the Spurs I will LOVE watching the game regardless of the outcome, but I'd prefer a win. When the Warriors play the Lakers it's just kind of sad. When they play the Clippers I can kind of delight in the Clippers losing ... but it would be better if they were winning more.

Bartlee23
01-04-2016, 08:49 PM
For those of you saying "guys didn't team up back in the day" you're either being disingenuous or lack some very important historical knowledge of the league. If it's the former you can skip this next paragraph as it's just a quick history lesson for the latter.

The fact of the matter is the a lot of these "Big 3s" we've seen as a result of stars teaming up were constructed in large part, through free agency. But unrestricted free agency didn't exist until 1988, hell the "free agency" that did exist was barely a free agency at all, not as we recognise it. A players entire future used to lie with the desire of his team. You were drafted or traded. For the most part that was it. I mean you could sign with another team at the end of a contract (in a sort of "restricted" free agency) but your former team would seek compensation from your new team, A LOT of compensation (for the time). This meant that if you were a truly great player, the odds of you going anywhere were slim unless management/coaching staff disliked you or you demanded a trade. Players couldn't just walk away from a team and sign with anyone they want to like they can now, we're never going to see a true example of anything like LeBron going to Miami. This doesn't mean players didn't WANT to team up, it was just way more difficult and the backlash from fans/media/team mates of demanding a trade to leave your current team and team up with a buddy if it ended up falling through... ouch. That's a big consequence.

Bearing all of that in mind, there are some clear examples of players trying to team up throughout history (in ways other than free agency). Moses Malone is a great example, maybe the best, you think it's a coincidence that after being bounced out of the first round in the last year of his contract at the same time Houston was changing ownership that he decided to try and sign with Philly? A 76ers team that had just been to the NBA finals but lost due to the Lakers big man (KAJ)?



Not to mention in more recent years, an ageing Barkley and Drexler went ring chasing in Houston with Olajuwon. Or Rodman? Who was bitterly unhappy in San Antonio and had been demanding trades (or more money) for long enough, he forced his way out... to a Chicago team who's own superstar had been complaining about the lack of defensive big men that they had after the Orlando front court tore them apart in the post season.


Whether it's through demanding trades (Dwight, Love) or through free agency. Great players have always found a way to team up.

And it shouldn't matter. Even if the teams were simply drafting brilliant players or the GMs were making trades or the players organised it themselves. These "Big 3s" and "Big 2s" have always existed. That hasn't changed.

All that has changed is players are more commonly taking it into their own hands now... because they can.

They're all chasing a legacy and we have nobody to blame but ourselves. It's the "fans" that judge players based on how many rings they've won, do you really think MJ would still be GOAT in many peoples minds if he had one ring? Or none? These players are only doing what their GMs were too incompetent to do themselves.

My personal beliefs are the NBA was never greater than the 80's and 90's. I can't say about anything before that because I didn't see the games live. I could care less when unrestricted free agency started. The point is in the 80's and 90's from what I saw live players truly hated each other and wanted to beat the best. They had no interest in forming a super team to dominate the league, they came to play AGAINST the best... competition, rivalries... these things do not exist in today's game.

The NBA has changed. It's a different game now. Low post basketball is dead, three point shooting is the norm from guards all the way up to centers, players are by far more athletic but I wouldn't say they are more skilled or have a higher IQ...there are far too many teams/players to name that exceed that. Players go to college less and for shorter time. I do understand in the past not all players went to 4 years of college but a lot more went then than now. We have European players with very high skill sets and it is a much more of a international game than ever.

I just remember watching a game at the Boston Garden against the Lakers and the competition and the excitement of the game. In the 80's you either liked Boston for their fundamentally sound play and heart they put into every game or you liked the Lakers "ShowTime" with their slick passing and high flying game. Both teams were so exciting but you always had a favorite, you couldn't like both. The 76ers had some very good teams as well.

The late 80's and early 90's were the Detroit "bad boys" with their tough play and highly skilled players. Then came Chicago that pretty much dominated the rest of the decade with Houston and San Antonio chipping in with some great teams. The 90's had so many good teams. New York,Indiana,Orlando,Utah,Portland,Seattle,Phoenix ,Los Angeles, San Antonio,Houston,Chicago. There were so many exciting games and rivalries. Players were allowed to play, fight (to an extent) and you could watch the whole game regardless of whether it was your favorite team.

Again players didn't have an interest in playing with each other, they wanted to kill each other. I'll be honest with you I blame several things for the state of the NBA and the first is money. Players play for the largest contract they can get. You can't fault them because why wouldn't you play for all the money you could get? Agents ruin the game, the media ruins the game, we as fans paying crazy prices for tickets. Do you remember the last time you went to a game and how much it cost you after parking, the ticket and a couple beers?.. crazy I'll stay home and watch the game.

I don't fault anything you said and I get where you're coming from. I don't judge players by rings. I have Curry rated as a better player than a lot of players with multiple rings. That means nothing to me as an individual player, it's a team accomplishment. Jordan would still be rated as one of the GOAT because of what he has done on an individual basis. The rings and finals MVP's are just the icing on the cake.

As far as the "villains" go I think they make "must watch TV" because in a way you kind of want them to lose (if you're honest or they're your team.) Nobody hates Golden State because they didn't form a superteam,aren't really cocky, they just go out and kick your ***. Miami and Boston are the two recent teams that people liked to hate maybe Cleveland to a degree because they went the " super team" way. I remember when Boston formed that team and they lost their first game and the fans yelling "overrated." Tell me if you weren't a Miami fan you didn't love when they lost? Players who are "villains" are a whole different conversation which are exciting as well but there aren't a lot anymore.

People don't care if Golden State loses. They want them to win because they are a good solid team. Oh well to each their own. Enjoy what you like. I loved the 80's and 90's.

PurpleLynch
01-04-2016, 10:03 PM
The Nba is hella fun imo(and I'm a Lakers fan).
For once there are a lot of small market teams building good teams,finger crossed(Wolves,Magic,Bucks,Jazz).
We got three fantastic teams in their respective conferences(Warriors,Spurs and Cavs)
A lot of good teams that could do noise in the playoffs if healthy(Okc,Clips,Bulls,Heat,Grizzlies,Hawks,Rocke ts if they manage to fix their internal problems).
Lakers,Knicks and Celtics are big market teams in a rebuilding process(with Celtics as the clear winner right now),but Knicks have Jackson(and some good potential) while the Lakers maybe landed some good young players to start the new era without Kobe next year.
There aren't huge rivalries,that's what I miss,but the quality of basket is high imo. The game just changed,if you appreciate,like me, the post game.

numba1CHANGsta
01-04-2016, 10:27 PM
The thing with the NBA is it's the same stories every season and the same teams on top: MIA/CLE, SA, thats why it was so refreshing to watch the Warriors win it all last season. I blame the salary cap and players taking pay cuts to join super teams. Super teams don't always work in the MLB or NFL, but in the NBA it's almost guaranteed for super teams to make the Finals every season. Also, teams "tanking" has ruined the NBA as well since they're an easy win for teams especially for the elite teams. Change the salary cap and the lottery and problem solved, but the NBA is heading into a worst direction

Scoots
01-04-2016, 10:27 PM
Bartlee23, players now coming in to the nba after one year in college have played a lot more organized ball than 4 year seniors in the 80s.

I loved the 80s and 90s nba ... But there were some terrible trends in the nba in those years ... So bad that a lot of rules changes were done just to make the game suck less. Players now are more informed and play in more evolved and complex systems than ever before.

I do think that a lot of the charisma has been squeezed out if the game though.

RLundi
01-04-2016, 10:42 PM
One thing is interesting: Shep as a Lakers fan saying the NBA is boring is a little suspect. Not sure fans of good teams feel the same way.

I'll say this though: I've completely soured on the NBA for some reason. Maybe it's because I just got married and don't have enough time to keep up with all of the games. Maybe it's because I tried fantasy football for the first time ever and now I'm totally hooked on the NFL season. Or maybe it's just because the NBA actually IS more boring than it was last season and years past. Idk. I still keep up with the box scores and records, and I've watched bits of Magic games this season (not a full game from start to finish though). Maybe when the Super Bowl is over I'll be more interested? Who knows, but the same thing happened with baseball 3 or 4 seasons ago too. Maybe I'm just getting old -- I'll be 30 this year -- and don't have enough time and energy to keep up with 3 sports.

Bartlee23
01-04-2016, 11:23 PM
Bartlee23, players now coming in to the nba after one year in college have played a lot more organized ball than 4 year seniors in the 80s.

I loved the 80s and 90s nba ... But there were some terrible trends in the nba in those years ... So bad that a lot of rules changes were done just to make the game suck less. Players now are more informed and play in more evolved

I do think that a lot of the charisma has been squeezed out if the game though.

Really? So what you are stating is Jahlil Okafor played "more organized ball in one year" then Ewing did in four years at Georgetown? Wow.... thanks I didn't know that...lol.

What exactly were these "rule changes" that made basketball better? I know they got rid of hand checking which I don't think made basketball better? I know they blow the whistle every other play. Did that make the game better? I know they failed at trying to move the 3 point line in which was quickly removed. I know a lot of zones and plays still used today have been around for years. I know the famous "triangle" that Chicago and Los Angeles were very successful running and New York is "trying" to an extent has been around quite awhile. I agree there has definitely been changes in things but to say things from past eras are not still used/run is in all honesty denial. Athletes are without a question are better today but to disgrace past stars/teams may be your "opinion" but it's not mine.

Scoots
01-04-2016, 11:34 PM
Not in one year of college ... In their lives to that point. Back in the 70s and 80s high school ball was pretty low level ... I know, they let me play, now the coaching is at a much higher level particularly in private schools that recruit and they play in multiple all star leagues all before they go to college.

The hand checking. The emphasis on calling snake bites, the changes in illegal defense and illegal offense rules.

I didn't say things from past eras are no longer used. Don't know where you got that.

Bartlee23
01-04-2016, 11:47 PM
Not in one year of college ... In their lives to that point. Back in the 70s and 80s high school ball was pretty low level ... I know, they let me play, now the coaching is at a much higher level particularly in private schools that recruit and they play in multiple all star leagues all before they go to college.

The hand checking. The emphasis on calling snake bites, the changes in illegal defense and illegal offense rules.

I didn't say things from past eras are no longer used. Don't know where you got that.

I know as well too. They let me play as well. High school ball has nothing to do about the example I provided. Ewing learned far more in his 4 years at Georgetown than you are giving credit for. You stated "rule changes" I was just giving an example of things that didn't change.

You seem like a pretty intelligence person. Going back to my original post I stated my "beliefs" you want to share your "opinion" that's cool.. I believe differently.

Scoots
01-04-2016, 11:59 PM
Okay ... No problem.

Chronz
01-05-2016, 12:04 AM
Magic went #1 overall and played his whole career with one team. Bird played his whole career with one 1 team. Your post makes no sense.

I never contested the fact that he went number 1, he wouldve gone number 1 in just about any draft but he admits himself, he would have been willing to wait another year had Chicago won the #1 pick, when the Lakers lucked in thanks to a bogus compensation rule, Magic was able to join the leagues MVP and never had to think about joining a superior franchise, same with Bird, both joined the 2 most stable franchises that had proven capable of building a contender. The other guys he mentioned (which you neglected to) are the ones who also had enough of the negligence.


Ok how does Magic or Bird "threatening" to do anything constitute forming a superteam? They were rookies who were good college players but in no way called up all-stars to play with them? Back then Boston and Los Angeles were the dominating teams and if anything that was a childish selfish move... not calling up the best players to form a team?
Players of that era did whatever was within their means to influence their situations, Magic was fortunate enough to ENTER the league playing alongside its MVP, he then had his teammate traded and his coach axed all because he wanted more control. Im not seeing whats childish about achieving something you didn't luck into.


What does Jordan "threating to retire if Pippen was traded" have anything to do with the comment?
That everyone has their limits on what they deem negligent management decisions. Those guys didn't have to call anyone up, they didn't endure the same struggles either.



Again remind me of the players Jordan called up to join forces? Barkley was more a pain in the *** then anything but the guy again never called players to go join forces on another team? What you have said has nothing to do with the comment?

Barkley actually did, aside from joining other teams throughout his peak/prime, he once took a paycut in Houston for the team to add Scottie Pippen in what he seems to consider an illegal deal (he always used to rant about the money they owed him iirc), I dont trust you would have the inside info on who did and did not communicate throughout those eras, its sad that you dont even remember the much publicized feud between Pippen and Chuck where Pip practically admits they talked about joining up right after Pippen won his 6th title.


Players in the 80's and 90's wanted to beat the other great players, not join up with the best as free agents to form a superteam. This started within the last 15 years or so. Again show me a team that was made up of multiple allstars that left their team as a free agent and signed together to form a better team in the 80's and 90's? Players wanted to beat other all-stars, players weren't "friends" with each other, that is one of the reasons why a lot of people didn't like the superteams formed. You have proven nothing except a few irrelevant points about players that have nothing to do with forming teams.
They did whatever was in their means to accomplish whatever they prioritize, always have, always will. From Wilt handpicking which franchises he would be open to joining to KG doing the same a few years back. Kobe forced his way into a great market before he ever even played a game in the NBA, Francis forced his way out of Vancouver, those were their priorities. What you're seeing today are great players deciding they rather not wait for something that may never come unless they do it themselves. I mean, its almost as if you believe teams never consulted on which players/coaches their stars would like to see them target.

Guys have been talking about playing together forever, some just never needed to and that has nothing to do with the criticism you've applied. (Soft or whatever it was)

Bartlee23
01-05-2016, 12:28 AM
I never contested the fact that he went number 1, he wouldve gone number 1 in just about any draft but he admits himself, he would have been willing to wait another year had Chicago won the #1 pick, when the Lakers lucked in thanks to a bogus compensation rule, Magic was able to join the leagues MVP and never had to think about joining a superior franchise, same with Bird, both joined the 2 most stable franchises that had proven capable of building a contender. The other guys he mentioned (which you neglected to) are the ones who also had enough of the negligence.


Players of that era did whatever was within their means to influence their situations, Magic was fortunate enough to ENTER the league playing alongside its MVP, he then had his teammate traded and his coach axed all because he wanted more control. Im not seeing whats childish about achieving something you didn't luck into.


That everyone has their limits on what they deem negligent management decisions. Those guys didn't have to call anyone up, they didn't endure the same struggles either.



Barkley actually did, aside from joining other teams throughout his peak/prime, he once took a paycut in Houston for the team to add Scottie Pippen in what he seems to consider an illegal deal (he always used to rant about the money they owed him iirc), I dont trust you would have the inside info on who did and did not communicate throughout those eras, its sad that you dont even remember the much publicized feud between Pippen and Chuck where Pip practically admits they talked about joining up right after Pippen won his 6th title.


They did whatever was in their means to accomplish whatever they prioritize, always have, always will. From Wilt handpicking which franchises he would be open to joining to KG doing the same a few years back. Kobe forced his way into a great market before he ever even played a game in the NBA, Francis forced his way out of Vancouver, those were their priorities. What you're seeing today are great players deciding they rather not wait for something that may never come unless they do it themselves. I mean, its almost as if you believe teams never consulted on which players/coaches their stars would like to see them target.

Guys have been talking about playing together forever, some just never needed to and that has nothing to do with the criticism you've applied. (Soft or whatever it was)

You stated " Magic wouldn't come out unless he was drafted basically into the right situation" I'm calling "childish" wah... I can't get my way so I'm going to sit in the corner. Please state where I said I "forgot" about Pippen and Barkley in Houston? I said "this started happening in the last 15 years OR SO. Need me to pull that up? I never said I know anything more than the average fan however this has become a norm in roughly the past 15 years or so.

You seem very defensive when someone shares a thought about a subject about a legitimate thing. You know nothing more than I do behind closed doors. I don't recall too many stories of Magic and Bird deciding to go join forces on another team? I don't recall Wilt filming his "decision" live of where he wanted to take his talents. I don't remember any of this. Maybe we can blame media and technology but this has been so much in the open in the time frame I provided it's unbelievable. I never told you what to believe, I know in the 80's and 90s thought players had rivalries.. not friendships.

Gander13SM
01-05-2016, 02:41 AM
"I don't recall too many stories of Magic and Bird deciding to go join forces on another team? I don't recall Wilt filming his "decision" live of where he wanted to take his talents."


Because they couldn't. Go read my post.

MygirlhatesCod
01-05-2016, 03:03 AM
This site is saturated with fans of teams that normally have been in contention. Now that those teams like Boston, lakers, Chicago and to an extent the heat are not relevant all of the sudden basketball sucks? Nah it's just bandwagon fans being what they are! The game is still strong it's more like your team sucks and now you hate the game (till they are better again I bet)

G_S_W
01-05-2016, 03:18 AM
The NBA has been inferior to the college game for a very long time.

The college game is a quality compromise between, and mix of, athleticism and strategy.

The elite atheticism of NBA athletes almost works against the game: a few players can dominate the game so readily, even the most mediocre coach quickly recognizes that ISO is often the best and only way to win games.

The NBA game is fundamentally flawed. The 24 second shot clock works against teamwork and passing. The size of the court is too small, and the basket now too low.

The game has not changed to accommodate the ridiculous increase in athleticism among players since the nba began play in the 1940's.

MonroeFAN
01-05-2016, 04:43 AM
^ in my brief experiences with NCAA basketball I've been incredibly underwhelmed. Seems super unorganized. I thought some NBA players took bad shots, college players just spot up from 3 and launch.

MonroeFAN
01-05-2016, 04:47 AM
NBA needs the Lakers and Celtics back into the picture

Celtics are already kind of in the picture. So safe to assume we should rename this topic to "Lakers fans complaining" ?

numba1CHANGsta
01-05-2016, 07:32 AM
Celtics are already kind of in the picture. So safe to assume we should rename this topic to "Lakers fans complaining" ?

How are the Celtics in the "picture" if the Lakers with the 2nd worst record beat them on their own home court? And unless you're a CLE, SA, or GSW fan you would be complaining too

MonroeFAN
01-05-2016, 09:00 AM
Because no one gives a crap about meaningless regular season losses against bad teams? The picture all the sudden involves 3 teams?

Laker fans just be quiet already, no one cares. I'm a piston fan, we've beat Cleveland more times than they have beat us, and I have zero things to complain about. There's no valid statements being made in this topic regarding the eastern conference. Just a bunch of salty fans complaining.

Let me guess what your response is going to be "oh pistons suck, lol lol lol lollillipop"

Bartlee23
01-05-2016, 11:08 AM
"I don't recall too many stories of Magic and Bird deciding to go join forces on another team? I don't recall Wilt filming his "decision" live of where he wanted to take his talents."


Because they couldn't. Go read my post.

Read your posts..thank you for your thoughts. I believe I also stated in another post "I don't fault anything you said" I do understand everything you wrote. You are more that able to share an opinion and no one can fault you for that because it's yours. In MY opinion regardless of the things you have stated I truly believe Magic and Bird had no interest in playing together. They thrived on the competition and beating each other. The rivalries are what made the game great. I also answered several of your other points making it quite obvious I read your post.

Jordan didn't call up all-stars to go play somewhere to beat Detroit. He wanted to do it on his own,prove he's the best and bring that title to him. Again the rivalries...the competitiveness. The time frame I gave for this becoming more of a norm was pretty spot on. The only players who jumped teams much later in their careers were ring chasers.

If you don't like what I have to say great. Won't lose one second of sleep over it. I respected what you said. I remember the rivalries and competitiveness I saw and there was nothing like it.

Scoots
01-05-2016, 11:11 AM
^ in my brief experiences with NCAA basketball I've been incredibly underwhelmed. Seems super unorganized. I thought some NBA players took bad shots, college players just spot up from 3 and launch.

I agree ... college ball is terrible on average and now the top teams are all freshmen who get by on being physically superior. I love march madness but the college game is much worse than the NBA in tactics, strategy, skills, and execution.

hugepatsfan
01-05-2016, 11:32 AM
How are the Celtics in the "picture" if the Lakers with the 2nd worst record beat them on their own home court? And unless you're a CLE, SA, or GSW fan you would be complaining too

Crap argument. I don't think BOS is really in the picture but a regular season loss to a bad team certainly not the reason for that. Elite teams lose a game here or there to a crap opponent all the ****ing time.

tredigs
01-05-2016, 01:26 PM
The NBA has been inferior to the college game for a very long time.

The college game is a quality compromise between, and mix of, athleticism and strategy.

The elite atheticism of NBA athletes almost works against the game: a few players can dominate the game so readily, even the most mediocre coach quickly recognizes that ISO is often the best and only way to win games.

The NBA game is fundamentally flawed. The 24 second shot clock works against teamwork and passing. The size of the court is too small, and the basket now too low.

The game has not changed to accommodate the ridiculous increase in athleticism among players since the nba began play in the 1940's.

A) NCAA is a horrible product, specifically now that it is 1 and done for its best players. Last nights 3-OT game between the 1-2 was one of the few enjoyable/watchable games I've seen in a while from a skill and execution standpoint. And even then it was lower quality than a Sixers/Lakers game.

B) How do you account for the fact that everything in the modern NBA is geared towards ball movement, spacing and team play? The Warriors and Spurs being the pinnacle of those offenses. ISO the best strategy? Wtf are you talking about here.

Hawkeye15
01-05-2016, 02:16 PM
The NBA has been inferior to the college game for a very long time.

The college game is a quality compromise between, and mix of, athleticism and strategy.

The elite atheticism of NBA athletes almost works against the game: a few players can dominate the game so readily, even the most mediocre coach quickly recognizes that ISO is often the best and only way to win games.

The NBA game is fundamentally flawed. The 24 second shot clock works against teamwork and passing. The size of the court is too small, and the basket now too low.

The game has not changed to accommodate the ridiculous increase in athleticism among players since the nba began play in the 1940's.

I couldn't disagree more. With the one and done era robbing college basketball of talent (the 92' Duke team for instance would beat any college team now by 20+ points), it's basically just a bunch of guys running around like chickens with their heads cut off, wasting energy, a paint that is packed in, and shooting 80 three's a game. It's barely watchable.

MonroeFAN
01-05-2016, 02:23 PM
I'm comfortable in saying that NCAA basketball legit sucks.

Hawkeye15
01-05-2016, 02:28 PM
I'm comfortable in saying that NCAA basketball legit sucks.

it's terrible. The one and done era has killed it. Look at a guy like Valentine at MSU. His draft stock is dead because he is 22. When did it become so important to start at 19, or the window closes? The style of play is terrible, all they do is pack in the paint and hoist 3's, so much wasted energy, it's just like watching the most inefficient basketball there is on television.

I will watch Iowa, bout it. I know the alum of many schools are into their teams, and that is one thing. But it's typically brutal to watch.

Gander13SM
01-05-2016, 02:35 PM
Read your posts..thank you for your thoughts. I believe I also stated in another post "I don't fault anything you said" I do understand everything you wrote. You are more that able to share an opinion and no one can fault you for that because it's yours. In MY opinion regardless of the things you have stated I truly believe Magic and Bird had no interest in playing together. They thrived on the competition and beating each other. The rivalries are what made the game great. I also answered several of your other points making it quite obvious I read your post.

Jordan didn't call up all-stars to go play somewhere to beat Detroit. He wanted to do it on his own,prove he's the best and bring that title to him. Again the rivalries...the competitiveness. The time frame I gave for this becoming more of a norm was pretty spot on. The only players who jumped teams much later in their careers were ring chasers.

If you don't like what I have to say great. Won't lose one second of sleep over it. I respected what you said. I remember the rivalries and competitiveness I saw and there was nothing like it.

You should read the Jordan Rules. You couldn't be more wrong about this. Jordan was constantly berating management with a shortlist of players he wanted on his team and criticising them over certain players they brought in.

Seriously. Give it a read.

MJL80
01-05-2016, 02:36 PM
The NBA has been bad since about 2005/06. With regards to college, nobody really cares until March.

Jeffy25
01-05-2016, 02:46 PM
People tend to think romantically about the past as if it were better...when it's not. Nostalgia glasses.

the NBA probably has the worst parity of any of the four major sports. No team in any other sport has the all-time winning percentage of the Lakers. A team with an elite player can do a lot of damage, you can't do that in another sport.

There are only so many elite players in the game.
Curry, LeBron, Durant when healthy?


The game has never had much parity. Hell, Jordan and the Bulls won 6 chips in 8 years.....that hasn't happened in another sport since.....well....maybe the Yankees in the 50's? And they didn't have playoffs then, so it was easier.

I like the NBA, but I don't have a favorite team. I tend to just watch the sport as a whole.

Jeffy25
01-05-2016, 02:49 PM
it's terrible. The one and done era has killed it. Look at a guy like Valentine at MSU. His draft stock is dead because he is 22. When did it become so important to start at 19, or the window closes? The style of play is terrible, all they do is pack in the paint and hoist 3's, so much wasted energy, it's just like watching the most inefficient basketball there is on television.

I will watch Iowa, bout it. I know the alum of many schools are into their teams, and that is one thing. But it's typically brutal to watch.

I wish the NBA would develop a better D league system like baseball has with it's minor league system.

Where you draft players past the first 15 players and actually develop them and give them multiple years in the D league to turn into an asset for you where you would have four years of control over that player when you called them up. You could send guys back and forth, have pro players rehab there, etc.

But really what you would do is you would develop players to assist your game in a way that you need assistance. Maybe you need a good post defender for an upcoming matchup, call two guys up that don't do much else for that matchup and clog the paint against a team that dominates it.

Would spread the sport out better.

Bartlee23
01-05-2016, 02:58 PM
You should read the Jordan Rules. You couldn't be more wrong about this. Jordan was constantly berating management with a shortlist of players he wanted on his team and criticising them over certain players they brought in.

Seriously. Give it a read.

Read it... I'll send you a picture of the book if you'd like. Chicago even traded his best friend (Charles Oakley) to New York for Bill Cartwright. We see how well Jordan picks and chooses his players from his track record in management. What does that prove? Again he never left the Bulls, formed another team in another city with other all-stars to dominate the league and even if he did complain... who cares? my whole argument has been based on competitiveness and rivalries. Which in the 80's and 90's there was a lot of.

I have to be done with this conversation. Again if you don't like what I say... great.. could care less. I respected everything you said and if you don't respect mine... oh well.

Chronz
01-05-2016, 03:25 PM
You stated " Magic wouldn't come out unless he was drafted basically into the right situation" I'm calling "childish" wah... I can't get my way so I'm going to sit in the corner.
Correct... Magic didn't want the challenge in Chicago but was nothing but smiles when LA won. I dont view either examples as childish, just the opposite actually. I admire athletes dont have blind faith in negligent organizations, or even the chance to be drafted by them (as Kobe and Magic had).


Please state where I said I "forgot" about Pippen and Barkley in Houston? I said "this started happening in the last 15 years OR SO. Need me to pull that up? I never said I know anything more than the average fan however this has become a norm in roughly the past 15 years or so.
Its been the norm since the days of Wilt, only difference is we have FA now so it doesn't have to be a behind doors type of negotiation.


You seem very defensive when someone shares a thought about a subject about a legitimate thing.
Get past that notion, Im merely disagreeing with your point of view.


You know nothing more than I do behind closed doors.
Which is why I dont care about what you have or haven't heard, only what you can prove. And you cant prove to me players didn't talk about playing (in whatever form was allowed to them) when I believe just the opposite happened and Im sure it happened as freely as the system allowed. Its why its so hard to prove "collusion" even in your agenda driven example.


I don't recall too many stories of Magic and Bird deciding to go join forces on another team?
I've already elaborated on why they didn't need to, and explained how I do recall Magic admitting he would've gone back to school had Chicago won the #1 pick, and how hes asserted himself with the franchise decision making. Why would I care about trivial difference when it all comes down to luck and players doing whatever they can to better their situations. Why would I expect Bird and Magic to join other teams to give them the best chance of success when they had ALREADY been gifted several championship supporting casts (and squandered quite abit of those chances)? It makes no sense, no **** they dont leave for greener pastures, they already had stacked squads.


I don't recall Wilt filming his "decision" live of where he wanted to take his talents.
Oh you dont huh? LOL, for his era, Wilt was the most diva you could get so this comparison discredits your grasp on history. Wilt used to threaten retirement/defection annually so there were actually people who wondered where he would play only to find out in the papers, and(iirc) there was even a time when he waited 1 week before preseason to even rejoin his team(this after much deliberation). So yes, Wilt did make a spectacle out of his "Decisions", now thats as close as you can get given the stage of the league/world.
Now if you were literally expecting Wilt to run a 1 hour show for it, then aside from bad trolling, why not include that it had to be on Cable, for a sportsnetwork show that had yet to exist, while being interviewed by the exact same host and that it had to raise money for the exact same charity? Thats about as relevant as your example.


I don't remember any of this. Maybe we can blame media and technology but this has been so much in the open in the time frame I provided it's unbelievable. I never told you what to believe, I know in the 80's and 90s thought players had rivalries.. not friendships.
Nah, I just blame your lack of perspective. Many consider one of the greatest rivalries of all time to be the good ol' Wilt vs Russel and that was one littered with friendship and respect. Players always had friendships and they had enemies, you just weren't privy to it because it didn't communicate your clear agenda. Its obvious you have something against the current era, which is fine, I know alot of people that actually prefer the NCAA because school rivalries still exist, feel free. I just disagree with your pov that its "soft" or anything like that.





TLDR: Every great player has various circumstances, to blindly compare them across time without even attempting to account for that context is why I find your argument nonsensical.

Bartlee23
01-05-2016, 03:49 PM
Correct... Magic didn't want the challenge in Chicago but was nothing but smiles when LA won. I dont view either examples as childish, just the opposite actually. I admire athletes dont have blind faith in negligent organizations, or even the chance to be drafted by them (as Kobe and Magic had).


Its been the norm since the days of Wilt, only difference is we have FA now so it doesn't have to be a behind doors type of negotiation.


Get past that notion, Im merely disagreeing with your point of view.


Which is why I dont care about what you have or haven't heard, only what you can prove. And you cant prove to me players didn't talk about playing (in whatever form was allowed to them) when I believe just the opposite happened and Im sure it happened as freely as the system allowed. Its why its so hard to prove "collusion" even in your agenda driven example.


I've already elaborated on why they didn't need to, and explained how I do recall Magic admitting he would've gone back to school had Chicago won the #1 pick, and how hes asserted himself with the franchise decision making. Why would I care about trivial difference when it all comes down to luck and players doing whatever they can to better their situations. Why would I expect Bird and Magic to join other teams to give them the best chance of success when they had ALREADY been gifted several championship supporting casts (and squandered quite abit of those chances)? It makes no sense, no **** they dont leave for greener pastures, they already had stacked squads.


Oh you dont huh? LOL, for his era, Wilt was the most diva you could get so this comparison discredits your grasp on history. Wilt used to threaten retirement/defection annually so there were actually people who wondered where he would play only to find out in the papers, and(iirc) there was even a time when he waited 1 week before preseason to even rejoin his team(this after much deliberation). So yes, Wilt did make a spectacle out of his "Decisions", now thats as close as you can get given the stage of the league/world.
Now if you were literally expecting Wilt to run a 1 hour show for it, then aside from bad trolling, why not include that it had to be on Cable, for a sportsnetwork show that had yet to exist, while being interviewed by the exact same host and that it had to raise money for the exact same charity? Thats about as relevant as your example.


Nah, I just blame your lack of perspective. Many consider one of the greatest rivalries of all time to be the good ol' Wilt vs Russel and that was one littered with friendship and respect. Players always had friendships and they had enemies, you just weren't privy to it because it didn't communicate your clear agenda. Its obvious you have something against the current era, which is fine, I know alot of people that actually prefer the NCAA because school rivalries still exist, feel free. I just disagree with your pov that its "soft" or anything like that.





TLDR: Every great player has various circumstances, to blindly compare them across time without even attempting to account for that context is why I find your argument nonsensical.

Ok... i'll play your game one last time then I'm done with this subject. Please quote me where I said ANYTHING about what I wrote as "gospel????" I believe I even started my posts as " my thoughts and opinions' guess what... could care less about yours.

Ok so let's break this down you "didn't think Magic was childish for not wanting to go to Chicago..." great.. your "opinion" not gospel.

You were there when Wilt did all these things? Or these were things you read somewhere? I said CLEARLY in my post I didn't know anything really before the 80's because I didn't follow it as much. Would you like me to repost that?

I could care less about anything you agree or disagree with what I said. Don't know you.. guess what I may disagree with your point of view... it's not gospel.

Even if Magic+Bird had the chance to join forces I don't think they would have. If you don't agree with that want to guess how much I care? Don't hold your breath.

You seem to need to belittle someone's opinion and get very defensive when someone does not share your point of view. Sorry to hear that. "Nah, I just blame your lack of perspective" so now you feel the need to belittle peoples point of views as well? Great !!!! You must be a very happy person.

I know what I saw in the 80's and 90's.. the competitiveness, the rivalries. it was so exciting. The NBA on NBC,the cool commercials, the regular season games that were actually fun to watch the whole game, I could go on and on. Your word is not "gospel' you weren't there so you didn't know. All you know is what you.read,what you heard and what may (or may not?) be true. Got no problem with the NBA I just think in my opinion in the 80's and 90's it was better.

JLynn943
01-05-2016, 04:31 PM
I wish the NBA would develop a better D league system like baseball has with it's minor league system.

Where you draft players past the first 15 players and actually develop them and give them multiple years in the D league to turn into an asset for you where you would have four years of control over that player when you called them up. You could send guys back and forth, have pro players rehab there, etc.

But really what you would do is you would develop players to assist your game in a way that you need assistance. Maybe you need a good post defender for an upcoming matchup, call two guys up that don't do much else for that matchup and clog the paint against a team that dominates it.

Would spread the sport out better.

I just don't know if it's possible. Having only 5 guys on the court at a time from your team is prohibitive to less talented players. There isn't as much room as there is in baseball for players with situational skills. Then the ones who have the skills that are that valuable are probably going to be everyday players anyway.

I think it would help a little, maybe a few players could emerge, and there's no reason the D league couldn't be significantly better than it is, but I doubt it would change a whole lot. It would definitely need more money to keep players from going abroad and playing in China, Europe, etc. where they'd probably make more.

Jeffy25
01-05-2016, 04:35 PM
I just don't know if it's possible. Having only 5 guys on the court at a time from your team is prohibitive to less talented players. There isn't as much room as there is in baseball for players with situational skills. Then the ones who have the skills that are that valuable are probably going to be everyday players anyway.

I think it would help a little, maybe a few players could emerge, and there's no reason the D league couldn't be significantly better than it is, but I doubt it would change a whole lot. It would definitely need more money to keep players from going abroad and playing in China, Europe, etc. where they'd probably make more.

In baseball, the players after being declared for the draft are owned by that team organization for X amount of years while in the minors before they can go to other leagues.

If done right, you would have foreign players coming to join the D league

Jeffy25
01-05-2016, 04:39 PM
Ok... i'll play your game one last time then I'm done with this subject. Please quote me where I said ANYTHING about what I wrote as "gospel????" I believe I even started my posts as " my thoughts and opinions' guess what... could care less about yours.

Ok so let's break this down you "didn't think Magic was childish for not wanting to go to Chicago..." great.. your "opinion" not gospel.

You were there when Wilt did all these things? Or these were things you read somewhere? I said CLEARLY in my post I didn't know anything really before the 80's because I didn't follow it as much. Would you like me to repost that?

I could care less about anything you agree or disagree with what I said. Don't know you.. guess what I may disagree with your point of view... it's not gospel.

Even if Magic+Bird had the chance to join forces I don't think they would have. If you don't agree with that want to guess how much I care? Don't hold your breath.

You seem to need to belittle someone's opinion and get very defensive when someone does not share your point of view. Sorry to hear that. "Nah, I just blame your lack of perspective" so now you feel the need to belittle peoples point of views as well? Great !!!! You must be a very happy person.

I know what I saw in the 80's and 90's.. the competitiveness, the rivalries. it was so exciting. The NBA on NBC,the cool commercials, the regular season games that were actually fun to watch the whole game, I could go on and on. Your word is not "gospel' you weren't there so you didn't know. All you know is what you.read,what you heard and what may (or may not?) be true. Got no problem with the NBA I just think in my opinion in the 80's and 90's it was better.

Chronz just schooled you and you are asking for more.....

MonroeFAN
01-05-2016, 04:46 PM
Yeah seriously that last comment wreaked of resting b face.

JLynn943
01-05-2016, 04:49 PM
In baseball, the players after being declared for the draft are owned by that team organization for X amount of years while in the minors before they can go to other leagues.

If done right, you would have foreign players coming to join the D league

As long as D-league caliber players would still be declaring for the draft it would be okay. I still think the payscale would need to increase. It seems feasible that players who don't have a good chance of making and sticking in the NBA would just take the secure higher pay overseas and not bother declaring. Maybe that wouldn't happen. Maybe the egos and the possibility of playing in the NBA would be enough, but it's not certain. Plus I think having the higher pay would help attract foreign players. There would actually be great potential for discovering/developing NBA-caliber foreign talent in a more competitive NBA style game in the D league. I think that's probably the bigger prize for a better D league. Either way, I'm all for improving it.

Scoots
01-05-2016, 05:07 PM
I wish the NBA would develop a better D league system like baseball has with it's minor league system.

Where you draft players past the first 15 players and actually develop them and give them multiple years in the D league to turn into an asset for you where you would have four years of control over that player when you called them up. You could send guys back and forth, have pro players rehab there, etc.


They are working on it. It's looking like they are waiting for all of the NBA teams to buy DL teams (and for MANY more teams to be created), then they will increase the protected NBA roster by a few spots for developmental players who can move up and down easier.

ewing
01-05-2016, 05:36 PM
NBA basketball is in a much better place then it was 15 years ago

Jeffy25
01-05-2016, 06:11 PM
They are working on it. It's looking like they are waiting for all of the NBA teams to buy DL teams (and for MANY more teams to be created), then they will increase the protected NBA roster by a few spots for developmental players who can move up and down easier.

That's great news

MygirlhatesCod
01-05-2016, 06:44 PM
They are working on it. It's looking like they are waiting for all of the NBA teams to buy DL teams (and for MANY more teams to be created), then they will increase the protected NBA roster by a few spots for developmental players who can move up and down easier.

I really like Cuban's idea of just having high school players going straight to the D league. they get paid right away and have the ability to focus only on developing into an nba player. it makes way more sense to have these kids make money instead of the schools.

Scoots
01-05-2016, 06:55 PM
I really like Cuban's idea of just having high school players going straight to the D league. they get paid right away and have the ability to focus only on developing into an nba player. it makes way more sense to have these kids make money instead of the schools.

The NBA and NCAA are in bed with each other ... the NBA won't screw the NCAA that way.

koberulesall
01-05-2016, 07:10 PM
the NBA was at its best for me from 1980-2010, now everyone is friends and wears tight *** pants its soft and weak,the same thing is going on everywhere especially in the music industry as well

nrvana
01-05-2016, 07:11 PM
I think the NBA is a little stagnant to me as well. With the Dirk-Kobe-KG-Duncan era coming to an end, there aren't a lot of stars that pique my interest anymore.

The Lebron-Wade-Melo-Bosh-CP3 era has matured. Lebron got his and is still relevant, while the others probably will just play out the rest of their careers padding their stats.

KD-Westbrook-Curry, while awesome to watch, don't get me as excited as the older generation of players.

MygirlhatesCod
01-05-2016, 07:35 PM
I think the NBA is a little stagnant to me as well. With the Dirk-Kobe-KG-Duncan era coming to an end, there aren't a lot of stars that pique my interest anymore.

The Lebron-Wade-Melo-Bosh-CP3 era has matured. Lebron got his and is still relevant, while the others probably will just play out the rest of their careers padding their stats.

KD-Westbrook-Curry, while awesome to watch, don't get me as excited as the older generation of players.

I really think curry and kd are way more entertaining to watch than Duncan or dirk. every game curry plays its like a playoff atmosphere. cant remember that same feel watching everyone else besides kobe and LeBron on occasion.

MygirlhatesCod
01-05-2016, 07:36 PM
The NBA and NCAA are in bed with each other ... the NBA won't screw the NCAA that way.

its for sure a pipe dream. that's to bad because the alternative would be infinitely better for the players and the game as a whole.

Scoots
01-05-2016, 08:54 PM
its for sure a pipe dream. that's to bad because the alternative would be infinitely better for the players and the game as a whole.
The best thing for the players would be no draft at all.

numba1CHANGsta
01-05-2016, 09:39 PM
Because no one gives a crap about meaningless regular season losses against bad teams? The picture all the sudden involves 3 teams?

Laker fans just be quiet already, no one cares. I'm a piston fan, we've beat Cleveland more times than they have beat us, and I have zero things to complain about. There's no valid statements being made in this topic regarding the eastern conference. Just a bunch of salty fans complaining.

Let me guess what your response is going to be "oh pistons suck, lol lol lol lollillipop"

You have nothing to complain about cuz your team doesn't have high standards. You guys are comfortable on being an average team.

Hawkeye15
01-05-2016, 10:18 PM
You have nothing to complain about cuz your team doesn't have high standards. You guys are comfortable on being an average team.

you are one of the many reasons people despise Lakers fans.

Scoots
01-06-2016, 10:52 AM
Also, worth noting that "teaming up" has always occurred. It's not a new thing. http://s.coop/1xpwa
http://s.coop/1xpjb

That's what they've been talking about for the last 3 pages.

xxplayerxx23
01-06-2016, 11:11 AM
East is pretty fun. Cavs will prob win but the other series should be fun.

numba1CHANGsta
01-06-2016, 11:27 PM
you are one of the many reasons people despise Lakers fans.

That's good, the more haters the better ;)

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 01:36 AM
1) Storylines are terrible. Let's face it, NBA was better when Kobe vs LeBron was the main attraction.
2) The best players aren't the same as before. Davis, Harden, Curry.. sorry but these new pack of guys are just bred differently from guys like James, Wade, and Kobe.
3) The style of game with three point shooting is just boring to watch. I admit that it's a lethal and dangerous weapon but it's just not as fun when someone can effortlessly launch threes.
4) Too many injuries and underachieving teams when they shouldn't be. West is just boring to watch because so many teams are underachieving. Players getting injured left and right really kills the buzz.

jerellh528
01-07-2016, 01:58 AM
Yeah it's not where it was from an excitement standpoint league wide imo. Maybe it's the stars today just lack something? I dunno. And no it's not boring for me due to being a lakers fan, on the contrary, watching the rebuild, the young guns, the uncertainty of free agency and where the team is headed is one of the more exciting times to be a laker fan in recent memory imo. Being a lakers fan right now is exciting, if nothing else just to watch the future unfold. But the rest of the league imo is pretty stale.

bucketss
01-07-2016, 02:06 AM
curry is probably one of the most unique players in nba history-we're watching the greatest shooter of all time in his prime,

numba1CHANGsta
01-07-2016, 02:09 AM
Get rid of the 3 point line and you'll see just how much more interesting the NBA would really get

jerellh528
01-07-2016, 02:17 AM
Get rid of the 3 point line and you'll see just how much more interesting the NBA would really get

Quite a few "NBA peeps" are advocating for a 4 pt line lol

numba1CHANGsta
01-07-2016, 04:13 AM
Quite a few "NBA peeps" are advocating for a 4 pt line lol

Curry would fest on that lol. Imagine the percentage numbers for 4pt shooting? Everyone will be trying to hit those meaning more misses meaning defenses would have to defend mid court yikes!

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 07:14 AM
Because no one gives a crap about meaningless regular season losses against bad teams? The picture all the sudden involves 3 teams?

Laker fans just be quiet already, no one cares. I'm a piston fan, we've beat Cleveland more times than they have beat us, and I have zero things to complain about. There's no valid statements being made in this topic regarding the eastern conference. Just a bunch of salty fans complaining.

Let me guess what your response is going to be "oh pistons suck, lol lol lol lollillipop"

You have nothing to complain about cuz your team doesn't have high standards. You guys are comfortable on being an average team.


Lol at average expectations. We're one of the youngest teams in the league and are 20-16in an actual conference, not that ***** foot fest you call the west.

Still nothing but laker fans complaining in this topic.

Vinylman
01-07-2016, 11:49 AM
Nothing has really changed... just the teams have changed

the top spenders are still the best teams

look at the top 10 teams in terms of salaries... they are all high quality except for Brooklyn...

http://hoopshype.com/salaries/

until there is a hard cap there will never be parity...

what would the nba look like in terms of competitiveness if you take those top 10 teams and make them stay at the cap number....

the league would be way more exciting and no team would be tanking (well maybe philly but you get my point).

Gander13SM
01-07-2016, 02:00 PM
1) Storylines are terrible. Let's face it, NBA was better when Kobe vs LeBron was the main attraction.
2) The best players aren't the same as before. Davis, Harden, Curry.. sorry but these new pack of guys are just bred differently from guys like James, Wade, and Kobe.
3) The style of game with three point shooting is just boring to watch. I admit that it's a lethal and dangerous weapon but it's just not as fun when someone can effortlessly launch threes.
4) Too many injuries and underachieving teams when they shouldn't be. West is just boring to watch because so many teams are underachieving. Players getting injured left and right really kills the buzz.

1) When was it ever about Kobe V LeBron? They never met in the finals. There was no rivalry there.
2) Curious as to why you left Westbrook and KDs names off there. Completely disagree with you, I'll take any of the guys you mentioned over Kobe. And a lot of them over Wade.
3) Why?
4) That's only occurred this year. And injuries have always been an issue. It's a pro sport. If anything it's better now with the advances in medical technology and science.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 02:29 PM
1) When was it ever about Kobe V LeBron? They never met in the finals. There was no rivalry there.
2) Curious as to why you left Westbrook and KDs names off there. Completely disagree with you, I'll take any of the guys you mentioned over Kobe. And a lot of them over Wade.
3) Why?
4) That's only occurred this year. And injuries have always been an issue. It's a pro sport. If anything it's better now with the advances in medical technology and science.

1) It doesn't matter whether or not they have met in the Finals, does it? NBA has been thriving off the Kobe vs LeBron debates for years and fans bought into it. That sort of competition and headline threw the NBA into a new stratosphere. Lack of storylines this season is killing it. Really? Harden vs Klay? Sorry, not interested.

2) I left Westbrook/KD in it because they are legitimate storyline players. Westbrook is just as vicious as can be and is arguably the most aggressive player in the NBA on the court. KD vs LeBron has always been a spectacle regardless of who wins. They were 1a/1b for about 3-4 years. These new guys are completely different. Davis seems rather quiet and not looking to start anything, Harden is just a clown, and Curry is too nice of a guy to start anything. So really, you have guys with rather zero character unlike before.

3) It's just boring. I took a second look at Mark Jackson's comments because I initially disagreed with it but he's right. The days of a team trying to beat you using an arsenal of offensive options is looking extremely limited when a player just starts shooting threes thinking if Curry can do it, why not I? It's my own personal opinion of course but it just doesn't interest me. I'm sure Curry connecting on crazy threes will have NBA fans going wild but when everyone is trying to imitate it, it gets to a point where I'm watching a completely different game. I really don't think I'm the only one who doesn't enjoy it.

4) Still, injuries have destroyed storylines. Missed matchups, lack of buildup because of injuries, and many other assorted reasons have made the NBA lose that buzz. I love the Cavs vs Warriors matchup and quite a few others as well but I have to really force myself to be interested in a few of them just because I don't see a reason to as I did before.

These are all my opinions but it may also have to do with personal reasons that have deteriorated my interest for the NBA.

Gander13SM
01-07-2016, 03:02 PM
Oklahoma homer thinks everyone sucks aside from his team's stars^

Big surprise.

No need to continue the conversation.

tredigs
01-07-2016, 03:08 PM
I don't get the idea that "Curry is too nice of a guy", but Westbrook and KD are not. They are all vicious on the court, and pleasant off of it. Same with 'Bron. Curry = KD's age btw. Just slower to start due to college/Monta/injuries.

Again, loving the current state of basketball. Offensive and defensive schemes are at an incredible level, gone with Kobe is the day of boring ISO ball, and now is the age where you'll need team-first play (along with superstars) to win titles. Unfortunately OKC doesn't quite have that part of the formula down, but their top end talent is good enough to keep them in the discussion anyway.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 03:29 PM
Oklahoma homer thinks everyone sucks aside from his team's stars^

Big surprise.

No need to continue the conversation.

I didn't mention Westbrook/KD because they had storylines that were appealing. Westbrook's character already puts him into a different category and KD's matchups with LeBron was the story for quite some years. We have been in a Kobe/LeBron storyline with LeBron vs Melo, LeBron vs Wade, LeBron vs Kobe, LeBron vs KD, Kobe vs KD, Kobe vs Wade, etc. We aren't seeing any appealing matchups these days. Again, I said these are my personal opinions. The fact you think I'm a "homer" shows you are just looking to start an argument. Stop being so disrespectful here when no one claimed otherwise. The fact you think Kobe vs LeBron wasn't a rivalry just shows your position in this.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 03:31 PM
I don't get the idea that "Curry is too nice of a guy", but Westbrook and KD are not. They are all vicious on the court, and pleasant off of it. Same with 'Bron. Curry = KD's age btw. Just slower to start due to college/Monta/injuries.

Again, loving the current state of basketball. Offensive and defensive schemes are at an incredible level, gone with Kobe is the day of boring ISO ball, and now is the age where you'll need team-first play (along with superstars) to win titles. Unfortunately OKC doesn't quite have that part of the formula down, but their top end talent is good enough to keep them in the discussion anyway.

I'm not trying to tell people what to like or not to. The OP asked a simple question and I personally felt the same way. I don't see why some people (Gander) think it's right that I have to like what I'm seeing. Sorry, but I'm sure Flea hates 99% of the basketball outside of Spurs these days. I'm not going to change that for anyone but I find a lack of character in the players today --> thus, leading to rather dull matchups.

BuckWilliams
01-07-2016, 06:06 PM
Haven't seen a really good game all year.

Not only are the players not as athletic or strong, the actual asthetic nature of the NBA isn't good. The courts nd jerseys and all the advertisements on the floors and everywhere are horrendous.

Take away the three point line and players will be forced to become athletic and hang for points inside.

They call any tap foul that happens to any guard in todays NBA. 30 of 35 top scorers in the NBA are guards or SF Wings. Infact 20 point gaurds are in the top 35 in scoring. It's not a team game anymore in the NBA. It's just everyone fighting to be the point guard and dribble down theirself so they can chuck their own shot.

Also the NBA is just really bad in terms of there being no real contenders. There are three as I see it.

When I grew up watching the game there would always be about 6-7 legit contenders atleast. Also they would put those games on during the season when they played each other on TNT or TBS all week. Mondays, Tuesdays and Thursdays. Then WGN would carry half the Bulls games, and they were a contender.
Then NBC would play National games every Sunday between contenders starting in November, they would have double and even Triple headers on NBC.

BuckWilliams
01-07-2016, 06:25 PM
I'm not trying to tell people what to like or not to. The OP asked a simple question and I personally felt the same way. I don't see why some people (Gander) think it's right that I have to like what I'm seeing. Sorry, but I'm sure Flea hates 99% of the basketball outside of Spurs these days. I'm not going to change that for anyone but I find a lack of character in the players today --> thus, leading to rather dull matchups.

It's dull because it's the jerseys and the asthetic nature of the courts and arenas. Everything looks fake. All the jerseys have no character and look bad in general. But they are also all generic and sloppy in design. For instance like little logos on the back of the neck and the NBA logo on the back of the jersey instead of the front. I even find that not only sloppy looking and unprofessional but acutally disrespectful to the NBA and the history of the league. Not too mention *** tags on the backs of shorts (Jazz, thunder, Nuggets, pacers) are several of the teams that do that. Then the colors of the jerseys are all pretty generic and somewhat the same as the next team. Then you might get an obnoxious bright yellow like the warriors or a bright fluorescent orange duck hunter outfit like the thunder. Most the shoes look stupid and cheap that the players wear today. Then just the way you can see the arenas just glitz it up trying to target some other group.
the rims suck now too. They collapse with about 5 pounds of pressure, so you don't get any real power dunks anymore that rip the rim down when it needed about 300 pounds of pressure.

Pretty much dunking is a lost art in the NBA. You might see one dunk a game now maybe two. They're never on anyone. The rules today took dunking out of the game. I knew it would too. They allowed defenders to slide under players for the last 15 years and I knew eventually the offensive players would just stop going to the rim all together.


No one really tries to dominate anymore. They all make the same amount of money anyway. Even an average player today makes about 15 million a year which is only about 25% off the highest paid player. Spread the wealth. I grew up wathing the league when all the players were hungry and wanted to make that 3 million dollar a year deal. (3 million was a lot of money back then, this was before inflation, you could buy a mansion, a yacht, a Ferrari, and feed and cloth your family and even your brothers family for many many years to come)

Michael Jordan has talked about this many times in the last 10 years. The politics of the league arent' good is what he says. He says players don't have to work for anything now. They don't have to be great.

KnicksorBust
01-07-2016, 06:30 PM
Growing up a big Ewing fan I miss the days of the post-up. But in reality the game has never been better. If you don't like watching the Spurs or Gstate then I don't know what to tell you.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 06:33 PM
It's dull because it's the jerseys and the asthetic nature of the courts and arenas. Everything looks fake. All the jerseys have no character and look bad in general. But they are also all generic and sloppy in design. For instance like little logos on the back of the neck and the NBA logo on the back of the jersey instead of the front. I even find that not only sloppy looking and unprofessional but acutally disrespectful to the NBA and the history of the league. Not too mention *** tags on the backs of shorts (Jazz, thunder, Nuggets, pacers) are several of the teams that do that. Then the colors of the jerseys are all pretty generic and somewhat the same as the next team. Then you might get an obnoxious bright yellow like the warriors or a bright fluorescent orange duck hunter outfit like the thunder. Most the shoes look stupid and cheap that the players wear today. Then just the way you can see the arenas just glitz it up trying to target little 12 year old girls or something.
the rims suck now too. They collapse with about 5 pounds of pressure, so you don't get any real power dunks anymore that rip the rim down when it needed about 300 pounds of pressure.

Pretty much dunking is a lost art in the NBA. You might see one dunk a game now maybe two. They're never on anyone. The rules today took dunking out of the game. I knew it would too. They allowed defenders to slide under players for the last 15 years and I knew eventually the offensive players would just stop going to the rim all together.


No one really tries to dominate anymore. They all make the same amount of money anyway. Even an average player today makes about 15 million a year which is only about 25% off the highest paid player. Spread the wealth. I grew up wathing the league when all the players were hungry and wanted to make that 3 million dollar a year deal. (3 million was a lot of money back then, this was before inflation, you could buy a mansion, a yacht, a Ferrari, and feed and cloth your family and even your brothers family for many many years to come)

Michael Jordan has talked about this many times in the last 10 years. The politics of the league arent' good is what he says. He says players don't have to work for anything now. They don't have to be great.

I agree with everything you said. Nice to see an argument that works in my favor :D. No really, I do think players are less concerned with the winning aspect and more-so the highlights that will be talked about on Twitter/Instagram/Vine. This growing breed of players just aren't brought into the sport to win but just make money and establish their brand.

tredigs
01-07-2016, 07:06 PM
I agree with everything you said. Nice to see an argument that works in my favor :D. No really, I do think players are less concerned with the winning aspect and more-so the highlights that will be talked about on Twitter/Instagram/Vine. This growing breed of players just aren't brought into the sport to win but just make money and establish their brand.

You agree with the fact that the jersey's and color tones have ruined the game? That players shoes are what's ruining the game? That "an average player makes $15 million a year" and "that is a quarter of the highest paid players"? That "poster dunks are a thing of the past and nobody tries to dominate"?

You're worse off than I thought if you agree with everything he just said. That post was embarrassing to say the least.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 07:41 PM
You agree with the fact that the jersey's and color tones have ruined the game? That players shoes are what's ruining the game? That "an average player makes $15 million a year" and "that is a quarter of the highest paid players"? That "poster dunks are a thing of the past and nobody tries to dominate"?

You're worse off than I thought if you agree with everything he just said. That post was embarrassing to say the least.

So because a completely opinionated and subjective question was being posted and someone disagrees with you, we're worse? Makes total sense to me from your perspective... New Years Resolution: try not to be such a disgruntled individual. Nothing in my post warranted that response from you; especially if it is an opinion that can't be proven otherwise.

tredigs
01-07-2016, 07:47 PM
So because a completely opinionated and subjective question was being posted and someone disagrees with you, we're worse? Makes total sense to me from your perspective... New Years Resolution: try not to be such a disgruntled individual. Nothing in my post warranted that response from you; especially if it is an opinion that can't be proven otherwise.

Lmao, well half of it looked like it was written from a teenage girls point of view, and half of it was just stupid and/or factually wrong. There are about an average of 1 player from each team making 15 mil or more, and the highest paid player is Kobe's expiring 25 mil deal. That equals "your average player making 15+ mil and 1/4 of the highest paid players"? No, it's just rambling nonsense from some kid who made an account earlier today that doesn't know what he's talking about.

mngopher35
01-07-2016, 07:49 PM
I think a lot of this can be due to teams/players people like. Kobe/KG and even Duncan/Dirk are leaving the game soon, lakers are in a down period etc. For me personally it is pretty exciting being a wolves fan since we finally have legit young talent. On top of this as others have mentioned we are seeing some really good team ball with GS/Spurs (even some east teams like Atlanta) and defenses have never been so complex. It is actually a pretty exciting time imo unless you prefer 1v1 storylines and things like that (maybe just more storylines in general).

Everyone will have their own take depending on their preferences in style, teams, players etc. which is why I think we see this type of thread yearly basically (not sure if on psd but I would be surprised if it wasn't brought up before at some point). I had a bit of a drop off in the mid 2000's where I watched less due to being in college, poor wolves teams etc. but eventually got back into it.

BuckWilliams
01-07-2016, 07:52 PM
You agree with the fact that the jersey's and color tones have ruined the game? That players shoes are what's ruining the game? That "an average player makes $15 million a year" and "that is a quarter of the highest paid players"? That "poster dunks are a thing of the past and nobody tries to dominate"?

You're worse off than I thought if you agree with everything he just said. That post was embarrassing to say the least.

It's all those things combined dork. It's not one thing or the other. ALL of those things combined. Pretty soon the logo in the center court will be bigger than the court it's self. and advertisements will be pasted all over that 90 foot genericly designed logo. I mean where do you stop? The marketing has become poor. That's just ONE of the things, but it is an important thing.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 07:54 PM
Lmao, well half of it looked like it was written from a teenage girls point of view, and half of it was just stupid and/or factually wrong. There are about an average of 1 player from each team making 15 mil or more, and the highest paid player is Kobe's expiring 25 mil deal. That equals "your average player making 15+ mil and 1/4 of the highest paid players"? No, it's just rambling nonsense from some kid who made an account earlier today that doesn't know what he's talking about.

Does that negate the fact that this is a completely opinion based question and I can not like a game for having too many colors/jerseys? That's your POV and I don't have to force you to like it by calling you names and whatnot. I don't like it. That's just me. I don't like the long sleeve jerseys, the terrible designs on some logos, and the fact that the game has been running on three point shooting more-so than ever. Does that really warrant you to be offensive?

BuckWilliams
01-07-2016, 07:56 PM
I think a lot of this can be due to teams/players people like. Kobe/KG and even Duncan/Dirk are leaving the game soon, lakers are in a down period etc. For me personally it is pretty exciting being a wolves fan since we finally have legit young talent. On top of this as others have mentioned we are seeing some really good team ball with GS/Spurs (even some east teams like Atlanta) and defenses have never been so complex. It is actually a pretty exciting time imo unless you prefer 1v1 storylines and things like that (maybe just more storylines in general).

Everyone will have their own take depending on their preferences in style, teams, players etc. which is why I think we see this type of thread yearly basically (not sure if on psd but I would be surprised if it wasn't brought up before at some point). I had a bit of a drop off in the mid 2000's where I watched less due to being in college, poor wolves teams etc. but eventually got back into it.


Sorry to say this to you but the Wolves don't have legit young talent. Nor do they even have the management to even make the playoffs. They will miss the playoffs AGAIN for the 11 straight year and get the 1st or 2nd pick AGAIN. This is another thing that is wrong with the NBA. Bad lottery teams never get better. Poor management and ownership is part of that, but also just the players in college now days aren't that good.

Sanjay
01-07-2016, 08:04 PM
Haven't seen a really good game all year.

Not only are the players not as athletic or strong, the actual asthetic nature of the NBA isn't good. The courts nd jerseys and all the advertisements on the floors and everywhere are horrendous.

Take away the three point line and players will be forced to become athletic and hang for points inside.

They call any tap foul that happens to any guard in todays NBA. 30 of 35 top scorers in the NBA are guards or SF Wings. Infact 20 point gaurds are in the top 35 in scoring. It's not a team game anymore in the NBA. It's just everyone fighting to be the point guard and dribble down theirself so they can chuck their own shot.

Also the NBA is just really bad in terms of there being no real contenders. There are three as I see it.

When I grew up watching the game there would always be about 6-7 legit contenders atleast. Also they would put those games on during the season when they played each other on TNT or TBS all week. Mondays, Tuesdays and Thursdays. Then WGN would carry half the Bulls games, and they were a contender.
Then NBC would play National games every Sunday between contenders starting in November, they would have double and even Triple headers on NBC.

Agreed, the two Warriors vs Clippers (the biggest current 'rivalry', it is not really that much of a rivalry if you want to call it that) have been disappointing. Although Golden State have not played San Antonio (they play them in Oakland on January 25 - Spurs might be the only team who has a decent chance of beating the Dubs at home so could be the Warriors first loss at Oracle this season?) and Oklahoma City. Some of the matchups shown on national television are ridiculous, for example tonight TNT is showing the Bulls v Celtics instead of Rockets v Jazz.

mngopher35
01-07-2016, 08:15 PM
Sorry to say this to you but the Wolves don't have legit young talent. Nor do they even have the management to even make the playoffs. They will miss the playoffs AGAIN for the 11 straight year and get the 1st or 2nd pick AGAIN. This is another thing that is wrong with the NBA. Bad lottery teams never get better. Poor management and ownership is part of that, but also just the players in college now days aren't that good.

No wonder you don't like the current NBA, you clearly don't watch it. Towns has been amazing for a rookie so far, he is extremely talented.

You can say we have bad ownership/management and right now I think that is fair without knowing our next move/hire. Flip passed away less than 6 months ago though and he was doing an excellent job of setting up our future. If that tragedy didn't happen this wouldn't apply at all.

Sanjay
01-07-2016, 08:20 PM
I agree with everything you said. Nice to see an argument that works in my favor :D. No really, I do think players are less concerned with the winning aspect and more-so the highlights that will be talked about on Twitter/Instagram/Vine. This growing breed of players just aren't brought into the sport to win but just make money and establish their brand.

I agree with what you are saying is true of some players (more than in the past). You have guys like LeBron; tried to get the league to change the rules for him so he could enter the NBA after his junior year at high school, who jumps teams when he cannot win and is still too casual on the court for my liking. Also Howard; I am not even going to bother saying anything about him. But there are still guys like Durant (people thought he was too weak to play in the league), Curry (also said to be not strong enough and not really recruited out of high school), Westbrook (unranked out of high school) and Leonard (mid first round pick) who are all about winning.

BuckWilliams
01-07-2016, 08:27 PM
Agreed, the two Warriors vs Clippers (the biggest current 'rivalry', it is not really that much of a rivalry if you want to call it that) have been disappointing. Although Golden State have not played San Antonio (they play them in Oakland on January 25 - Spurs might be the only team who has a decent chance of beating the Dubs at home so could be the Warriors first loss at Oracle this season?) and Oklahoma City. Some of the matchups shown on national television are ridiculous, for example tonight TNT is showing the Bulls v Celtics instead of Rockets v Jazz.

Jazz v Rockets would be a terrible game. Low FG% all night and Rockets will blow them out by 15

Bulls v Celtics is a decent game, but it should be followed up by Spurs vs Warriors and both those teams need new better looking jerseys to make the game more watchable.

But the NBA has pusposely made the schedules so that the good teams never play but maybe like 3 times in the year is all and that will be the last 3 games of the season when teams start resting their players and seeding is pretty much set. It's been this way in the NBA for the last 10 years. It's a joke.

I mean back in the 90's we had contenders like New York playing the Bulls 5 and 6 times a season. Once every two weeks.

Then you had The Bulls also play the Pistons 6 times, You had Celtics play the Knicks 6 times.

Knicks Miami 5 times. And it was physical and you didn't get paid unless you win. That's how it was back then. You got the contract when your team won 50 games. The owners were smart back then. They didn't even look at stats. They only looked at wins.

Jazz would play Rockets 6 times
Blazers would play Sonics 6 times.

All these teams are contenders.


A contender back then would play about 30 games against other contenders.

Now it's like a contender will play about 8 games vs a contender and that's all the last week of the season like I said when the seeding is set and teams are starting to rest players for the playoffs. So we the fans get nothing during the season.

lol, please
01-07-2016, 08:41 PM
The Warriors are playing at an historic level. The Spurs are playing like champs. The Thunder have two MVP candidates, and half the East is playing better than expected.

I would agree that some teams have been disappointing (Houston + Clippers) and that it is frustrating to see LBJ shooting so poorly this season, but I think there are a lot of great stories going on right now, and a lot fo great basketball.
:clap:

Gander13SM
01-08-2016, 02:51 AM
I didn't mention Westbrook/KD because they had storylines that were appealing. Westbrook's character already puts him into a different category and KD's matchups with LeBron was the story for quite some years. We have been in a Kobe/LeBron storyline with LeBron vs Melo, LeBron vs Wade, LeBron vs Kobe, LeBron vs KD, Kobe vs KD, Kobe vs Wade, etc. We aren't seeing any appealing matchups these days. Again, I said these are my personal opinions. The fact you think I'm a "homer" shows you are just looking to start an argument. Stop being so disrespectful here when no one claimed otherwise. The fact you think Kobe vs LeBron wasn't a rivalry just shows your position in this.

Curry vs CP3 and Warriors V Clippers in general is already a bigger rivalry than anything KD has had in regards to being "aggressive" or "heated". I never saw those OKC-MIA teams going at each other and getting heated.

Curry vs any point guard really.

There's nobody to "rival" Davis. Who's fault is that?

Face it. You dislike everything about the game aside from your teams best players. That makes you a homer.

Also I don't get this obsession with "story lines" that people have. 99% of them are fabricated media crap anyway.

I'm not here for some soap opera. I'm here for basketball. And there's a lot of great basketball being played (certainly not by okc though) and there's a lot of great basketball players.

What made the 80s so great was the fact that there were so many unique players, there had never been anyone like Bird before or anyone like Magic or even Zeke. The way the stars back then approached the game was so different from anything we had seen before. And I think we're entering another age of that. There has never been a player like Curry or Davis. There has never been a player quite like KD. Kobe was nothing but an MJ impersonator, a very good one at that, but nothing we hadn't seen before.

Again, don't get why everyone needs Storylines to be entertained. If you're a basketball fan, it's the basketball that should entertain you. The purity of the game.

And the skill level hasn't been this high in a very long time.

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 01:18 PM
Curry vs CP3 and Warriors V Clippers in general is already a bigger rivalry than anything KD has had in regards to being "aggressive" or "heated". I never saw those OKC-MIA teams going at each other and getting heated.

Curry vs any point guard really.

There's nobody to "rival" Davis. Who's fault is that?

Face it. You dislike everything about the game aside from your teams best players. That makes you a homer.

Also I don't get this obsession with "story lines" that people have. 99% of them are fabricated media crap anyway.

I'm not here for some soap opera. I'm here for basketball. And there's a lot of great basketball being played (certainly not by okc though) and there's a lot of great basketball players.

What made the 80s so great was the fact that there were so many unique players, there had never been anyone like Bird before or anyone like Magic or even Zeke. The way the stars back then approached the game was so different from anything we had seen before. And I think we're entering another age of that. There has never been a player like Curry or Davis. There has never been a player quite like KD. Kobe was nothing but an MJ impersonator, a very good one at that, but nothing we hadn't seen before.

Again, don't get why everyone needs Storylines to be entertained. If you're a basketball fan, it's the basketball that should entertain you. The purity of the game.

And the skill level hasn't been this high in a very long time.

No it's not.. No one really cares about CP3 vs Curry because one player is currently clear cut better. LeBron vs KD was a much more compelling matchup because they were both literally 1a/1b.

You're calling me a homer based off what? I have criticized my team many times.. check reality again, pal. The fact you think Kobe vs LeBron was never a rivalry just proves my point. It's the biggest NBA discussion of all-time and here you are claiming Curry vs CP3 is more of a rivalry than Kobe vs LeBron. Enough said.

kdspurman
01-08-2016, 01:27 PM
I'm enjoying it now. It doesn't feel much diff than other seasons to me. There's always a handful of teams who realistically can win it all.

Rivalries are usually started in the playoffs, so maybe this year we will see some new ones develop.

lol, please
01-08-2016, 02:42 PM
I'm enjoying it now. It doesn't feel much diff than other seasons to me. There's always a handful of teams who realistically can win it all.

Rivalries are usually started in the playoffs, so maybe this year we will see some new ones develop.
That's because our teams are on top, lol. The nba is more popular than it has ever been, so I really don't understand this thread at all.

And I hate the weak narrative of some mythical rivalry between the clippers and warriors. They've been competitive for like 3 seasons, and games between the two sometimes produce heated exchanges, but so freaking what?

The Lakers are more of a rival, always have been, just because they aren't contending now doesn't change that. You've got to have competitive games and bad blood for longer than less than half a decade before I give you the rival stamp of approval.

And I agree about the post season.

To me, our rivals right now are the Rockets and Cavaliers and even the Bucks more than the Clippers. They are still second in their own city for crying out loud. Perennial bottom feeders (which they will me back to being no doubt) don't deserve to be considered rivals of anyone except success.

Scoots
01-08-2016, 02:48 PM
Hard cap the NBA. Do away with max contracts. Do away with the draft. Some teams will manage it well and be good year after year, some will manage it poorly and be bad year after year, some will go up and down. Just like today.

I don't understand people who say there was more athleticism back in the day than there is now. There were a few athletic high flying stars and that was the focus of the show ... but now every team has 4 or 5 guys who can "jump out the gym" which just serves to make it seem like the NBA is less athletic. Also with zone defenses allowed and "verticality" there is less opportunity to show off. Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger BY FAR on average from the 90s and before.

Gander13SM
01-08-2016, 03:14 PM
No it's not.. No one really cares about CP3 vs Curry because one player is currently clear cut better. LeBron vs KD was a much more compelling matchup because they were both literally 1a/1b.

You're calling me a homer based off what? I have criticized my team many times.. check reality again, pal. The fact you think Kobe vs LeBron was never a rivalry just proves my point. It's the biggest NBA discussion of all-time and here you are claiming Curry vs CP3 is more of a rivalry than Kobe vs LeBron. Enough said.

Kobe V LeBron was very friendly for a rivalry. Never saw it get heated or aggressive at all.

And it's not a rivalry because of that. Never was. They never had any important games against each other (playoffs etc) and the only people discussing it are homer fans debating who's the best. It's all media driven B.S

Sorry you can't see that.

And your a homer because you think KD has some sort of character those other guys don't. Curry, Davis etc are all as aggressive as KD on the court and do just as much to break their opponent down.

But hey, you stick to your story lines. I'll stick to basketball.

See you around.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 03:25 PM
Hard cap the NBA. Do away with max contracts. Do away with the draft. Some teams will manage it well and be good year after year, some will manage it poorly and be bad year after year, some will go up and down. Just like today.

I don't understand people who say there was more athleticism back in the day than there is now. There were a few athletic high flying stars and that was the focus of the show ... but now every team has 4 or 5 guys who can "jump out the gym" which just serves to make it seem like the NBA is less athletic. Also with zone defenses allowed and "verticality" there is less opportunity to show off. Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger BY FAR on average from the 90s and before.

Who are the 4 - 5 guys that jump out of the gym on the Wizards, Bulls, Pacers, and Nets? Who are the guys that jump out of the gym for the Kings, Jazz, Suns, GS Warriors?

Gander13SM
01-08-2016, 04:31 PM
Who are the 4 - 5 guys that jump out of the gym on the Wizards, Bulls, Pacers, and Nets? Who are the guys that jump out of the gym for the Kings, Jazz, Suns, GS Warriors?

Name 5 players on every team from the 90s that "jumped out of the gym"

Gander13SM
01-08-2016, 04:32 PM
Also, Wall and Beal might be one of the most athletic backcourt tandems of the last 20 years.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 05:06 PM
Wall is about 6'4 with long arms and plays down a position and is young. He's sometimes got it and some times not... Meaning the hops.

Beal is not that athletic. He is a tough little guy that had an attitude, but rarely ever dunks and it's not easy for him to dunk. He's about 6'4 aswell and pretty much a one leg leaper solely and rarely challenges any shots at the rim or dunks.

I can think of about 100 backcourts more athletic overall than this disappointing one.

Scoots
01-08-2016, 05:43 PM
The marketing has become poor.

Actually the marketing is exceptional ... the problem is that you don't like the fact that they are marketing the league which I totally understand.

The problem for me is that the amount of money in the league as well as the evolution of marketing and social media means that the number of "characters" in the NBA has been carefully worn down to the point where anybody who acts out is marginalized fairly quickly and other players see that and just try to not be noticed. Barkley would leave the arena and go drinking with fans ... at home and away games. Rodman was always in the news with one thing or another. Magic and Bird were willing to say they couldn't stand each other to national media (early on anyhow). Now drunk Draymond says the Cavs suck and it's national news ... the Warriors start posting videos of the team singing on the plane ride home and the NBA officially shuts them down. The NBA is better than it's ever been as far as the game ... but the worst it's ever been for characters ... and certainly that has an effect on the aesthetic of the league just as some people's distaste for "marketing" has an effect on the aesthetic.

tredigs
01-08-2016, 05:54 PM
Lmao Kobe V LeBron the biggest rivalry/discussion of all time?? Maybe for 15 yr olds. Wilt/Russell? Bird/Magic??? It was a fun hypothetical debate for 3-4 years and it was always based on lame regular season games because neither faced off in the playoffs where true rivalries are born/thrive.

I don't know, maybe their shoes were the most competitive of all time and that's what you mean. I don't even know what Kobe or LeBron's shoes look like tbh. -shrug

COOLbeans
01-08-2016, 06:10 PM
They need to change the rules to have a bit more physicality. The new rules suck and have created a more boring game

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 06:26 PM
scoots you going to back up your lie and list the 4-5 players on every team that can jump out of the gym?

Scoots
01-08-2016, 07:11 PM
scoots you going to back up your lie and list the 4-5 players on every team that can jump out of the gym?

Dude, I'm at work, I just now saw your post. No need to get snarky. I'll get you your answer.

I suppose we should start with a definition. I think a 34" vertical is a pretty good break point. That puts them 6" over the current NBA average.

Michael Jordan is the king at 48" but outliers exist in all things and I'm not talking about the top of the NBA but the NBA as a whole. For that yardstick Bulls team there was Jordan, Pippen, and Harper ... don't know if any other players make that 34" line.

For the Warriors Iguodala, Barnes, Ezeli, and McAdoo all make that line.

It's possible at 34" it will be less than 4 for some teams, but a 34" vertical seems a fair number to me.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 10:50 PM
Dude, I'm at work, I just now saw your post. No need to get snarky. I'll get you your answer.

I suppose we should start with a definition. I think a 34" vertical is a pretty good break point. That puts them 6" over the current NBA average.

Michael Jordan is the king at 48" but outliers exist in all things and I'm not talking about the top of the NBA but the NBA as a whole. For that yardstick Bulls team there was Jordan, Pippen, and Harper ... don't know if any other players make that 34" line.

For the Warriors Iguodala, Barnes, Ezeli, and McAdoo all make that line.

It's possible at 34" it will be less than 4 for some teams, but a 34" vertical seems a fair number to me.

Not only was the top of the NBA more athletic in the 80's and the 90's, but they were more talented and didn't settle for long jumpers, but also the average player back then was more athletic. You act like every single player in the NBA today throws down dunks every game.

Not only did they jump higher and farther in the 80's and 90's, but they also had far more style.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 10:56 PM
Name 5 players on every team from the 90s that "jumped out of the gym"

I never said that many. Most the guys in the 90's were about POWER and they could get up. Everyonce in a while during a big playoff game they could take it way upstairs and small it down from 10 feet away and it would look very impressive because the power players back then were like 6'9, 265


But I can name a collection of great all around athletes (high flyers with authority and hangtime) from any season of the 90's that is much better and larger than any you can name in the last 10 seasons.

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 10:57 PM
Kobe V LeBron was very friendly for a rivalry. Never saw it get heated or aggressive at all.

And it's not a rivalry because of that. Never was. They never had any important games against each other (playoffs etc) and the only people discussing it are homer fans debating who's the best. It's all media driven B.S

Sorry you can't see that.

And your a homer because you think KD has some sort of character those other guys don't. Curry, Davis etc are all as aggressive as KD on the court and do just as much to break their opponent down.

But hey, you stick to your story lines. I'll stick to basketball.

See you around.

1) Do you know what the definition of a rivalry is? Look it up.
2) I'm laughing at your failed interpretation of the word.
3) I've criticized KD and my team many times.. stop calling me a homer because it artificially boosts your statement. I already told you that KD vs LeBron was a pretty compelling rivalry for quite some time.

Stick to your insults. I'll stick to using a word in the correct phrase.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 11:10 PM
Power Forward

Two words you don't hear anymore together.

Back in the 90's there were so many big power forward and centers that were strong and that were high flyers. They had so much power back then.

the league office has pushed to change the NBA but not the Game. The game will always be the same. (put the ball in the hoop). The League office doesn't want players like Oakley, Mason, Rodgers, West, Barkley, Shaq, B. Wallace, PJ Brown, Mourning, Ewing, Robinson, Rodman, Edwards, Malone, Laimbeer, Mahorn, and others like them in the NBA anymore. David Stern said that we can't allow the fights to happen with players like that. The refs didn't know how to control those players and Stern was afraid of a lawsuit if a fight fell into the stands like it always did with Rodman, Mourning, LJ, PJ Brown and others.

Scoots
01-08-2016, 11:21 PM
Not only was the top of the NBA more athletic in the 80's and the 90's, but they were more talented and didn't settle for long jumpers, but also the average player back then was more athletic. You act like every single player in the NBA today throws down dunks every game.

Not only did they jump higher and farther in the 80's and 90's, but they also had far more style.
Larry bird? Magic? Kareem? Mchale? Mullin? Ewing?

I said the nba as a whole is more athletic.

Do you define athletic as big or powerful or do you include speed, quickness, and control?

It takes talent to shoot the ball too.

The game is different but that doesn't make it worse.

BuckWilliams
01-09-2016, 12:01 AM
Larry bird? Magic? Kareem? Mchale? Mullin? Ewing?

I said the nba as a whole is more athletic.

Do you define athletic as big or powerful or do you include speed, quickness, and control?

It takes talent to shoot the ball too.

The game is different but that doesn't make it worse.

So tell me how many of these players can really get up and are super athletes?

7 Joe Johnson SF 6-7 240 June 29, 1981 14 University of Arkansas
10 Sergey Karasev SF 6-7 208 October 26, 1993 2
2 Jarrett Jack PG 6-3 200 October 28, 1983 10 Georgia Institute of Technology
44 Bojan Bogdanovic SF 6-8 216 April 18, 1989 1
22 Markel Brown SG 6-3 190 January 29, 1992 1 Oklahoma State University
24 Rondae Hollis-Jefferson SF 6-7 220 January 3, 1995 R University of Arizona
1 Chris McCullough F 6-11 200 February 5, 1995 R Syracuse University
11 Brook Lopez C 7-0 275 April 1, 1988 7 Stanford University
30 Thaddeus Young PF 6-8 221 June 21, 1988 8 Georgia Institute of Technology
0 Shane Larkin PG 5-11 175 October 2, 1992 2 University of Miami
21 Wayne Ellington SG 6-4 200 October 29, 1987 6 University of North Carolina
9 Andrea Bargnani C 7-0 245 October 26, 1985 9
41 Thomas Robinson PF 6-10 237 March 17, 1991 3 University of Kansas
33 Willie Reed PF 6-10 220 May 16, 1990 R Saint Louis University
15 Donald Sloan PG 6-3 205 January 15, 1988 4 Texas A&M University

Athleticism is creativity, control, power, jumping, agility and endurance. It's also speed and quickness. It's all these things. It's even more, but I don't want to write a novel on it. Its just something you know when you see.

I will say that there are a lot of 6'10 players today that are long and thin like a rail. They have NO power and the only reason they can dunk is because there are no 7'1 300 pound centers waiting for them in the lane and they're so lite weight that they just reach up and they can dunk. They really don't jump that high though. They can already reach up to about 9'3 or something and they weigh nothing.

Also teams don't really get back on defense all the time now with the courts unbalanced with all the lone threes taken. Even having said that, they don't dunk that much.

BuckWilliams
01-09-2016, 12:50 AM
Go watch some 80's games and you'll see they were the most athletic.

ewing
01-09-2016, 01:00 AM
Larry bird? Magic? Kareem? Mchale? Mullin? Ewing?

I said the nba as a whole is more athletic.

Do you define athletic as big or powerful or do you include speed, quickness, and control?

It takes talent to shoot the ball too.

The game is different but that doesn't make it worse.

you don"t think pre knee problems ewing was a super athletic big? Kareem? LOL. Dude was a freak

Scoots
01-09-2016, 01:11 AM
Ewing and kareem were big and super skilled but shaq, hakeem, and wilt were more athletic.

But we are talking about all time greats again while the thread is about the nba as a whole.

ewing
01-09-2016, 01:13 AM
Larry bird? Magic? Kareem? Mchale? Mullin? Ewing?

I said the nba as a whole is more athletic.

Do you define athletic as big or powerful or do you include speed, quickness, and control?

It takes talent to shoot the ball too.

The game is different but that doesn't make it worse.

overall the league is more athletic then is was 30 year ago b/c of rule changes but the top tear athletes are still top tear. Evolution just doesn't work like that. Jessie Owens is an world class runner today and that happened more then 1/2 a century ago. Robert Pack is freak in the 90s and he would be today. rule changes have a certain type of athlete more valuable

Scoots
01-09-2016, 01:15 AM
Power Forward

Two words you don't hear anymore together.

Back in the 90's there were so many big power forward and centers that were strong and that were high flyers. They had so much power back then.

the league office has pushed to change the NBA but not the Game. The game will always be the same. (put the ball in the hoop). The League office doesn't want players like Oakley, Mason, Rodgers, West, Barkley, Shaq, B. Wallace, PJ Brown, Mourning, Ewing, Robinson, Rodman, Edwards, Malone, Laimbeer, Mahorn, and others like them in the NBA anymore. David Stern said that we can't allow the fights to happen with players like that. The refs didn't know how to control those players and Stern was afraid of a lawsuit if a fight fell into the stands like it always did with Rodman, Mourning, LJ, PJ Brown and others.
That is your list of high flyers? Really? Power for sure, but most of that list were not spectacular.

ewing
01-09-2016, 01:16 AM
Ewing and kareem were big and super skilled but shaq, hakeem, and wilt were more athletic.

But we are talking about all time greats again while the thread is about the nba as a whole.

Wilt is the biggest freak of all and he in the ****ing 60s.

Scoots
01-09-2016, 01:17 AM
Wilt is the biggest freak of all and he in the ****ing 60s.
Yes ... Lots of rule changes just because of him. But there are always outliers ... We're talking about the nba overall.

Scoots
01-09-2016, 01:20 AM
overall the league is more athletic then is was 30 year ago b/c of rule changes but the top tear athletes are still top tear. Evolution just doesn't work like that. Jessie Owens is an world class runner today and that happened more then 1/2 a century ago. Robert Pack is freak in the 90s and he would be today. rule changes have a certain type of athlete more valuable
Sure. My point was essentially your first sentence. I was never trying to say that the past players were bad or not as good as today at all. Jordan is a freak no matter the era.

ewing
01-09-2016, 01:27 AM
Yes ... Lots of rule changes just because of him. But there are always outliers ... We're talking about the nba overall.

you're wrong. Evolution just doesn't work like that. you take physicality out of the game make power less important guys are more free to fly. all these guys are insane athletes and have been for a good while.

ewing
01-09-2016, 01:31 AM
Sure. My point was essentially your first sentence. I was never trying to say that the past players were bad or not as good as today at all. Jordan is a freak no matter the era.

no prob i think we agree. question though, is Robert pack a star in today's league?

Scoots
01-09-2016, 01:36 AM
you're wrong. Evolution just doesn't work like that. you take physicality out of the game make power less important guys are more free to fly. all these guys are insane athletes and have been for a good while.
I was saying that wilt's insane athleticism and skill caused the league to change the rules. I wasn't saying anything about evolution.

BuckWilliams
01-09-2016, 01:43 AM
Players were more athletic in the 80's. They were also bigger

BuckWilliams
01-09-2016, 01:59 AM
Here's a list of Athletes from the 97 season

Jordan
Kemp
Barkley
Olajuwon
Shaq
Drexler
Pippen
Payton, more with quickness and endurance
Malone
Robinson
Ewing
Bryant
McDyess
Finley
Garnett
Webber
Pack
Davin Ham
Stockton for quickness, toughness and endurance
K. Johnson
Iverson
B. Barry
Sprewell
Houston
Allen
Tony Dumas
Anthony Mason for power and versatility
Hardaway
Grant Hill
Lindsay Hunter
Rodman for endurance and overall ability
Lorenzo Williams The original 6'9 210 pound center could sky.
Isiah Rider
Harold Miner
Chris Carr
James Robinson
Mourning
Larry Johnson
Horry
Duncan
Laphonso Ellis
Stackhouse
Glen Robinson
Ron Harper
John Starks
Dee Brown



That's just a small list of athletes from the 97 season. Pretty much everyone in the NBA is athletic back then

tredigs
01-09-2016, 02:26 AM
Gotta love this guy. "Doug Christie would be considered the greatest athlete ever today". Somebody please sig some of this stuff before he's banned.

tredigs
01-09-2016, 02:43 AM
True athletic freaks right now: Wiggins/Lebron/Lavine/Griffin/DJordan/Drummond/JWall/Westbrook/Giannis/ADavis.

Those ten stack up with anybody from an athletic standpoint, and it's the tip of the iceberg. Faried/Derozan/PGeorge/TRoss/Oladipo/Kawhi/Bledsoe etc etc. League is filled with beasts, as everyone knows.

Gander13SM
01-09-2016, 07:26 AM
Revisionist history, rose tinted glasses and general romanticism when reminiscing will always have people tripping about certain eras.

BuckWilliams
01-09-2016, 01:16 PM
True athletic freaks right now: Wiggins/Lebron/Lavine/Griffin/DJordan/Drummond/JWall/Westbrook/Giannis/ADavis.

Those ten stack up with anybody from an athletic standpoint, and it's the tip of the iceberg. Faried/Derozan/PGeorge/TRoss/Oladipo/Kawhi/Bledsoe etc etc. League is filled with beasts, as everyone knows.

Most the guys you listed are soft. Someone like lavine might be the softest player I've ever seen.

Only Leonard on that list is an all around athlete.

Many of the ones you named are just one leg jumpers. They have not drop step and rise for a big dunk on someone.

giannis isn't athletic he's just tall and can reach 9'3' His one stop vert is honestly about 12 inches if that during games. He barely dunks and he's like 7 feet.

Gander13SM
01-09-2016, 01:34 PM
Most the guys you listed are soft. Someone like lavine might be the softest player I've ever seen.

Only Leonard on that list is an all around athlete.

Many of the ones you named are just one leg jumpers. They have not drop step and rise for a big dunk on someone.

giannis isn't athletic he's just tall and can reach 9'3' His one stop vert is honestly about 12 inches if that during games. He barely dunks and he's like 7 feet.

"Soft" lmao.

Another favourite from the textbook of revisionist history.

Vinylman
01-09-2016, 01:39 PM
Hard cap the NBA. Do away with max contracts. Do away with the draft. Some teams will manage it well and be good year after year, some will manage it poorly and be bad year after year, some will go up and down. Just like today.

I don't understand people who say there was more athleticism back in the day than there is now. There were a few athletic high flying stars and that was the focus of the show ... but now every team has 4 or 5 guys who can "jump out the gym" which just serves to make it seem like the NBA is less athletic. Also with zone defenses allowed and "verticality" there is less opportunity to show off. Players today are bigger, faster, and stronger BY FAR on average from the 90s and before.

i said this 5 pages ago... the NBA has ALWAYS been a league where the highest spenders win... and please people don't put up stupid comments like brooklyn hasn't won without spending... the reality is every team that wins it is well over the cap even the Spurs (they have been fortunate to have stars take way less than they could).

The talent in the league is concentrated like it always has been... hopefully the new CBA changes this. the first step will be to eliminate the max contract... that alone will spread the talent out... legit top guys aren't gonna leave $10 million a year on the table.

BuckWilliams
01-09-2016, 01:56 PM
gander, you're an idiot. So you think giannas is a tough player?

you only listed about 15 players. So are Steph Curry and Chris paul great athletes?

Gander13SM
01-09-2016, 02:11 PM
What are we discussing? I forget because I have no memory.

Read my sig and move on kid. Come back when you lived through those eras and haven't just formed your opinion on youtube videos :)

Scoots
01-09-2016, 02:43 PM
i said this 5 pages ago... the NBA has ALWAYS been a league where the highest spenders win... and please people don't put up stupid comments like brooklyn hasn't won without spending... the reality is every team that wins it is well over the cap even the Spurs (they have been fortunate to have stars take way less than they could).

The talent in the league is concentrated like it always has been... hopefully the new CBA changes this. the first step will be to eliminate the max contract... that alone will spread the talent out... legit top guys aren't gonna leave $10 million a year on the table.
Its not the money its the team. Teams that are well run tend to get talent which leads to higher cap numbers ... Usually without over paying for that talent. My point was that there is no magic formula for parity because no matter the rules some teams will be well run and some will not.

NYYCowboys
01-09-2016, 02:47 PM
How has the KP movement died down in NY? He's had his ups and down (which mostly all rookies do), but he's already one of the better defensive players in the game, and he's only going to get more consistent offensively as he gets more experience. This is the most excited I've been as a Knicks fan since the Ewing era.

Gander13SM
01-09-2016, 03:18 PM
gander, you're an idiot. So you think giannas is a tough player?

you only listed about 15 players. So are Steph Curry and Chris paul great athletes?

Why did you completely change your post with the edit?

Chronz
01-09-2016, 04:05 PM
Its not the money its the team. Teams that are well run tend to get talent which leads to higher cap numbers ... Usually without over paying for that talent. My point was that there is no magic formula for parity because no matter the rules some teams will be well run and some will not.

Bingo, correlation doesn't equal causation. I would rather focus on how teams that win get there than assume its just about money because of some vague claims. That said, you can see how eliminating max contracts could dissuade players, but it would be hard to come up with a valid cap limit and it may not solve a thing except lessen the money to the middling vets

CityofTreez
01-09-2016, 04:15 PM
The damn Kings are in the playoff picture in the West.
I've never been more excited about the NBA in a long while.

BuckWilliams
01-10-2016, 12:24 PM
well if your a fan of a team whos not doing so well at the moment it might effect the way you see things. for me personally the nba hasn't been this enjoyable in years. http://s.coop/1xpjb http://financeisok.com/loan/images/11.gif

why, do you like seeing 100 threes taken a game and just hoping for wins rather than going out and winning.

tredigs
01-10-2016, 05:54 PM
why, do you like seeing 100 threes taken a game and just hoping for wins rather than going out and winning.

Why do you insist on being so dumb yet so loud?

Vinylman
01-10-2016, 09:51 PM
Bingo, correlation doesn't equal causation. I would rather focus on how teams that win get there than assume its just about money because of some vague claims. That said, you can see how eliminating max contracts could dissuade players, but it would be hard to come up with a valid cap limit and it may not solve a thing except lessen the money to the middling vets

none of the top teams would be "together" if there was a hard cap and no max contract limit...

NONE OF THEM

All these teams have had to go OVER the cap using exceptions to sign their FA

ALL OF THEM

I don't disagree that good organizations will have more success over the long haul but to think that there wouldn't be immediate parity if a hard cap and no cap on max contract was put in place is delusional

LOb0
01-11-2016, 01:00 AM
i said this 5 pages ago... the NBA has ALWAYS been a league where the highest spenders win... and please people don't put up stupid comments like brooklyn hasn't won without spending... the reality is every team that wins it is well over the cap even the Spurs (they have been fortunate to have stars take way less than they could).

The talent in the league is concentrated like it always has been... hopefully the new CBA changes this. the first step will be to eliminate the max contract... that alone will spread the talent out... legit top guys aren't gonna leave $10 million a year on the table.


The CBA is in place so teams that draft well can retain their players and have a 4 year span of a cheap, vastly underpaid contract for a young Superstar player at around 5-7 million a year. Within those 4 years spend your money wisely and you have a legit team.

What you're saying is you want to punish teams for drafting well. So say you spend 40 million a year on a superstar, and you have a young on the rise superstar you drafted. You're forced to just let him go?

The current NBA rewards drafting well. You can only go over the cap when you already had that player in the first place, which is normally though smart drafting/trading. I'm not for ever punishing smart teams.

It seems like you just want to give a crutch to teams that are poorly ran that can't draft or trade properly and force good teams to lose players they rightfully earned or drafted. The teams that win? Almost always drafted a Superstar. That's the true method to winning. Its not about the money, its about having the smarts and the skill/luck to be in the position to spend the money the right way.

Crackadalic
01-11-2016, 10:55 AM
I'm enjoying the nba right now. So much parity at the moment especially out east

Scoots
01-11-2016, 11:15 AM
I don't disagree that good organizations will have more success over the long haul but to think that there wouldn't be immediate parity if a hard cap and no cap on max contract was put in place is delusional

A hard cap would not "immediately" make the Lakers the equal of the Spurs. Veteran players who have made their money want to play for teams that are winning and are willing to take less money to do so ... if the hard cap was $85M this year (and it would not be much less with the CBA re-write needed to set a hard cap) the 76ers would still be WAY below it and the Spurs would still be great. The Spurs are a great basketball organization and the Lakers are not ... the result, NO MATTER THE RULES, is that the Spurs will, on average, be one of the better teams as long as the people running the show are great at their jobs, and any team with a bad front office will continue to be bad on average.

Sanjay
01-11-2016, 06:20 PM
Jazz v Rockets would be a terrible game. Low FG% all night and Rockets will blow them out by 15

Bulls v Celtics is a decent game, but it should be followed up by Spurs vs Warriors and both those teams need new better looking jerseys to make the game more watchable.

But the NBA has pusposely made the schedules so that the good teams never play but maybe like 3 times in the year is all and that will be the last 3 games of the season when teams start resting their players and seeding is pretty much set. It's been this way in the NBA for the last 10 years. It's a joke.

I mean back in the 90's we had contenders like New York playing the Bulls 5 and 6 times a season. Once every two weeks.

Then you had The Bulls also play the Pistons 6 times, You had Celtics play the Knicks 6 times.

Knicks Miami 5 times. And it was physical and you didn't get paid unless you win. That's how it was back then. You got the contract when your team won 50 games. The owners were smart back then. They didn't even look at stats. They only looked at wins.

Jazz would play Rockets 6 times
Blazers would play Sonics 6 times.

All these teams are contenders.


A contender back then would play about 30 games against other contenders.

Now it's like a contender will play about 8 games vs a contender and that's all the last week of the season like I said when the seeding is set and teams are starting to rest players for the playoffs. So we the fans get nothing during the season.

Jazz vs Rockets probably was not the best example, but they are currently the 8th and 7th seeds in the Western Conference respectively. Also, I thought viewers would rather see Harden than P. Gasol. By the way, Rockets shot 52% and Jazz 49% and Houston won by 9, I did not expect it to be a blowout because the Rockets have been playing so poorly this season.

Scoots
01-13-2016, 11:24 AM
I posted this elsewhere and realized it would fit here too:

I still think, overall, the talent at the elite level is now higher than it was in the 80s and 90s too ... it's just that then there were a few stars who were the whole focus of the NBA marketing and now every team has players getting pushed nationally so it seems weaker, and also we are in a period when the traditional major market teams are suffering through down periods right now (Lakers, Knicks, 76ers, Celtics) ... and the Clippers just don't fill that void. The next group of big markets have been largely unsuccessful in marketing top players for the past 20 years: Chicago has been flawed since MJ left, Dallas had 2 years where they were the story and 1 of them was when they lost in the first round. Atlanta, Houston, and DC's teams have been middle of the pack or worse and the Warriors have been terrible for most of the last 30 years. That's the top 10 markets and none of them have had anything close to the Lakers/Celtics storylines, nor the Michael Jordan story for the Bulls. Miami is the 17th largest market in the US, San Antonio is 37th. It's not the players, it's the marketing.

The problem with the physical defense of the 80s and 90s is that the coaches found the weaknesses in the rules and in exploiting them made the game terrible to watch in the late 90s so the rules had to change. The rules changes were an effort to get the game back to looking more like it was in the 80s when defense was a rarity

Chronz
01-13-2016, 03:09 PM
none of the top teams would be "together" if there was a hard cap and no max contract limit...

NONE OF THEM

All these teams have had to go OVER the cap using exceptions to sign their FA

ALL OF THEM

I don't disagree that good organizations will have more success over the long haul but to think that there wouldn't be immediate parity if a hard cap and no cap on max contract was put in place is delusional
Disagree.. You can't make claims like that without explaining how you arrived to the max limit and you have to see how unfair it is to not give teams time to make necessary changes (ALL teams), they gave enough time just for the updated luxury tax