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ewing
01-01-2016, 10:29 PM
On a list of PFs where does Gasol land?

lakerfan85
01-01-2016, 10:38 PM
All time?

tsubibo
01-01-2016, 11:23 PM
all-time or currently?

ewing
01-01-2016, 11:24 PM
all time

misteraday
01-01-2016, 11:32 PM
On a list of PFs where does Gasol land?

Guys a stud. Maybe as underrated a PF as we've seen. Body of work is pretty impressive. He was 3rd team all NBA last year. I'd say currently top 7 and all time top 20.

tsubibo
01-01-2016, 11:33 PM
Maybe a top 20 PF of all-time. Maybe higher.

flea
01-01-2016, 11:57 PM
Hmmm probably top 10 PFs, top 50-65 any position I'd say. Never really had any weaknesses in his game - could shoot, pass, drive, post, protect the rim, rebound, and defend. Declined in his lateral quickness like all 7 footers do but I don't really count that as a weakness in the player so much as the position. Not as dominant as you'd like as a scorer or rebounder, but in that realm he compares favorably to KG and Malone respectively.

What I still wonder is whether he or his brother was better. I'm tempted to say Pau but it may be bias because of his Laker time.

PowerHouse
01-02-2016, 12:20 AM
Hard to categorize Pau as just a PF since he's played 40-50 percent of his career at center including this season. Seems like an over-simplification to me. Probably up there with Duncan as one of the greatest players of all time capable of playing the 4 or 5 equally well.

ewing
01-02-2016, 01:33 AM
Wow,top 20, maybe top 20. I love Pau and think he is underrated but i didn't think he was that underdated

ewing
01-02-2016, 01:33 AM
Hmmm probably top 10 PFs, top 50-65 any position I'd say. Never really had any weaknesses in his game - could shoot, pass, drive, post, protect the rim, rebound, and defend. Declined in his lateral quickness like all 7 footers do but I don't really count that as a weakness in the player so much as the position. Not as dominant as you'd like as a scorer or rebounder, but in that realm he compares favorably to KG and Malone respectively.

What I still wonder is whether he or his brother was better. I'm tempted to say Pau but it may be bias because of his Laker time.

clearly better then his brother

Redrum187
01-02-2016, 01:36 AM
Pau Gasol - Underrated
Marc Gasol - Overrated

JasonJohnHorn
01-02-2016, 02:01 AM
I think Pau is one of the grossly underrated players in the league.

I've seen McHale play, and I have to say, if you gave me a choice between a 22-year-old Pau that I could build around, and a 22-year-old McHale, I would take Pau.

Frankly, and I know I'll get a lot of slack for this, I'd take Pau over Dirk as well. This is not meant as a knock to Dirk, who I think is amazing, but though Pau is not as good a shooter, more so from beyond the arc, I think his overall skill set is more impressive.

I have never seen a player with better interior passing. He can dish the ball out of a double-team to a guy on the wing, but that is easy enough for anybody who makes and effort to learn it. What wows me is the way he can pass the ball in traffic to another guy in the paint without turning the ball over and getting the guy a wide open shot. There are other guys that can do that, but nobody does it better.

He also has amazing foot work (certainly as good and likely better than Dirk's) and as a mid-range jump shooter, he get a gold star.

In terms of rebounding, he's been a solid double-digit rebounder per36 throughout his career (about two more than Dirk), and defensively I've always felt he was a grossly underrated player. Unlike Dirk, Pau has the diversity to play center and more than hold his own defensively in that regard. I love Dirk, but I really think that in building a team, Pau is the guy I'd take first.

What I love about him is that he is a team player. I would have loved to see him with the Spurs under Pop. Him and Duncan would have been lights out together.

Had the Spurs been playing with Gasol instead of Duncan, I believe they very likely could have won as many titles, and certainly would have still been contending each year and stringing together 50-win seasons.

I also believe that had the Lakers managed to bring Dirk over instead of Gasol, that Kobe may still be at 3 rings right now. That is obviously debatable, but I really think Gasol made both Bynum and Odom effective in ways the Dirk simply couldn't have, with particular attention to Gasol's interior passing.


Where does he rank all time? It's hard to say. Intergenerational comparisons are always so subjective. In his era, I'd rank him third behind Duncan and Garnett (though if you include Webber I'd likely put Webber's peak over Gasol's). Dirk would be very close behind.

All time certainly top-ten. Perhaps as high as 5 or 6.

Sadds The Gr8
01-02-2016, 02:04 AM
top 10-12?

flea
01-02-2016, 02:25 AM
Lmao you're dreaming if you think Pau would be as good as Duncan on the Spurs. That's like saying Drexler would be MJ under Jackson. Pop is a good coach but you way overrate coaches in the NBA if you think he would turn Pau into Duncan. Duncan is a way better defender, scorer, and rebounder - no argument there in the least. He's also way better on the P&R. Even in passing Duncan is better. Maybe Pau is a better midrange shooter but that's about all he's got. Hell Duncan is better at 39 than Pau is at 35 this season probably (he definitely was last year).

Pau was very good at almost everything a big man does - Duncan was elite at literally everything except midrange, where is merely very good. You don't win 5 titles as the best player by just being "pretty good" like Pau no matter who the coach is.

LA_Raiders
01-02-2016, 02:32 AM
Top 10 PF all time, i have him ranked above Dirk.

BlackHoleCub
01-02-2016, 02:36 AM
37.14th all time.

You basketball folks are cray-cray with your rankings.

Kyben36
01-02-2016, 02:40 AM
how can anyone rank him above dirk, dirk was a #1 option on a championship team, with little help i might add. Pau i have ranked behind Timmy (obviously) Dirk and Garnett in my own era, other would have to fill in for my ill knowledge of previous eras being only 24 years old.

KnicksorBust
01-02-2016, 07:59 AM
Below:
Duncan
Kg
Dirk
Malone
Barkley
Pettit

On the same tier as:
Hayes
McHale

Above:
Rodman
Webber

PurpleLynch
01-02-2016, 08:57 AM
I'd say top 10 of all time at the end of his career. Duncan,Barkley,Garnett,Malone,Nowitzki are sure top 5,he's after them.

lakerfan85
01-02-2016, 11:37 AM
I'd say top 10..

kdspurman
01-02-2016, 11:42 AM
Lmao you're dreaming if you think Pau would be as good as Duncan on the Spurs. That's like saying Drexler would be MJ under Jackson. Pop is a good coach but you way overrate coaches in the NBA if you think he would turn Pau into Duncan. Duncan is a way better defender, scorer, and rebounder - no argument there in the least. He's also way better on the P&R. Even in passing Duncan is better. Maybe Pau is a better midrange shooter but that's about all he's got. Hell Duncan is better at 39 than Pau is at 35 this season probably (he definitely was last year).

Pau was very good at almost everything a big man does - Duncan was elite at literally everything except midrange, where is merely very good. You don't win 5 titles as the best player by just being "pretty good" like Pau no matter who the coach is.

Yea that Pau on the Spurs comment was kind of crazy. Pau is/was nowhere close to Timmy when it came to defense. That was a huge part of the Spurs identity. Maybe they win 1 title at most, if any... that 05 Pistons team for example would've eaten him alive.

For this question, probably top 10-12 for me

KnicksorBust
01-02-2016, 12:58 PM
I'd say top 10 of all time at the end of his career. Duncan,Barkley,Garnett,Malone,Nowitzki are sure top 5,he's after them.

Pettit is clearly ahead of him.

The Senator
01-02-2016, 01:12 PM
Below:
Duncan
Kg
Dirk
Malone
Barkley
Pettit

On the same tier as:
Hayes
McHale

Above:
Rodman
Webber

I'm in agreement with this, although I'd bump Elvin down to the third tier.

Chronz
01-02-2016, 02:02 PM
I think Pau is one of the grossly underrated players in the league.

I've seen McHale play, and I have to say, if you gave me a choice between a 22-year-old Pau that I could build around, and a 22-year-old McHale, I would take Pau.

Frankly, and I know I'll get a lot of slack for this, I'd take Pau over Dirk as well. This is not meant as a knock to Dirk, who I think is amazing, but though Pau is not as good a shooter, more so from beyond the arc, I think his overall skill set is more impressive.

I have never seen a player with better interior passing. He can dish the ball out of a double-team to a guy on the wing, but that is easy enough for anybody who makes and effort to learn it. What wows me is the way he can pass the ball in traffic to another guy in the paint without turning the ball over and getting the guy a wide open shot. There are other guys that can do that, but nobody does it better.

He also has amazing foot work (certainly as good and likely better than Dirk's) and as a mid-range jump shooter, he get a gold star.

In terms of rebounding, he's been a solid double-digit rebounder per36 throughout his career (about two more than Dirk), and defensively I've always felt he was a grossly underrated player. Unlike Dirk, Pau has the diversity to play center and more than hold his own defensively in that regard. I love Dirk, but I really think that in building a team, Pau is the guy I'd take first.

What I love about him is that he is a team player. I would have loved to see him with the Spurs under Pop. Him and Duncan would have been lights out together.

Had the Spurs been playing with Gasol instead of Duncan, I believe they very likely could have won as many titles, and certainly would have still been contending each year and stringing together 50-win seasons.

I also believe that had the Lakers managed to bring Dirk over instead of Gasol, that Kobe may still be at 3 rings right now. That is obviously debatable, but I really think Gasol made both Bynum and Odom effective in ways the Dirk simply couldn't have, with particular attention to Gasol's interior passing.


Where does he rank all time? It's hard to say. Intergenerational comparisons are always so subjective. In his era, I'd rank him third behind Duncan and Garnett (though if you include Webber I'd likely put Webber's peak over Gasol's). Dirk would be very close behind.

All time certainly top-ten. Perhaps as high as 5 or 6.

I stil take Dirk I do think Pau has had a few superior years throughout their prime. Which years would you give the nod to Dirk/Pau?

Chronz
01-02-2016, 02:18 PM
I agree with the guy who said hes getting the sorta unfair advantage of being rewarded the ability to play both PF and C, which does make some difference but at the same time, indicative of their versatility defensively. While he was never quite the help defender that Duncan was, he was a better 1v1 post defender IMO. Duncan has complimented Pau's defense of him, dude is long and at his apex, had the ability to defend Rashard Lewis on the perimeter then switch onto the league best Center and limit both of them. That ability is what drove the Lakers, Kobe and Phil brought out the best in him right as he was entering his physical/mental peak. Brown/D'Antoni and Bynum/Dwight brought out the worst in him and his teams towards the end of his Laker tenure. Thinking of making a thread about this since you practically read my mind with this OP. Was just thinking about how differently Pau-Kobe go down had the Lakers FO been competent.

Anyways he clearly doesn't touch the elite5

Duncan
Kg
Dirk
Malone
Barkley
Pettit

After them its Pau, McHale and Rodman in a realm all their own.

The tier below that is a funky mix of peak vs prime. CWebb vs Rasheed for example.

Chronz
01-02-2016, 02:19 PM
I'm in agreement with this, although I'd bump Elvin down to the third tier.

Bump Rodman up, even he was less cancerous and more influential to his teams winning ways.

DboneG
01-02-2016, 03:37 PM
Clearly some of you guys don't know the role of a "Power Forward". Although the power forward role has changed a bit in today's game. It's still the same in most aspects. The power forward is a interior scorer, he's a rebounder, he plays most with his back to the basket, he help give strength to the teams defense, A power forwards usually 6 feet 8 inches to 6 feet 11 .


So, why is Pau Gasol a 7footer always outside shooting the ball? Why is it that Pau just get lost when guys are banging and crashing the boards? That's why he fell out with the Lakers. Pau just didn't want to play good defense, or crash the boards. Someone ranked Pau over Elvin Hayes...lol!!! Elvin Hayes is number 4 all-time in rebounds! Pau isn't in the top 40 in rebounds! C'mon! Do Pau help give strength to the defence?! Not really. Thibs had all kinds of problems with Pau playing tough defense. The Lakers and Kobe were pulling their hair out with Pau's defense. Look at the Bulls defense right now...


Pau is a soft batch. He plays well when a shorter guy is guarding him. He's a good ball player.


Where would I rank him all-time power forwards? I have a hard time putting Pau Gasol in the top 25 all-time on my list.


I have a hard time putting Pau Gasol above these names:

Maurice Lucas
Rasheed Wallace
Connie Hawkins
Shawn Kemp
Bob McAdoo
Chris Weber

ewing
01-02-2016, 04:17 PM
Clearly some of you guys don't know the role of a "Power Forward". Although the power forward role has changed a bit in today's game. It's still the same in most aspects. The power forward is a interior scorer, he's a rebounder, he plays most with his back to the basket, he help give strength to the teams defense, A power forwards usually 6 feet 8 inches to 6 feet 11 .


So, why is Pau Gasol a 7footer always outside shooting the ball? Why is it that Pau just get lost when guys are banging and crashing the boards? That's why he fell out with the Lakers. Pau just didn't want to play good defense, or crash the boards. Someone ranked Pau over Elvin Hayes...lol!!! Elvin Hayes is number 4 all-time in rebounds! Pau isn't in the top 40 in rebounds! C'mon! Do Pau help give strength to the defence?! Not really. Thibs had all kinds of problems with Pau playing tough defense. The Lakers and Kobe were pulling their hair out with Pau's defense. Look at the Bulls defense right now...


Pau is a soft batch. He plays well when a shorter guy is guarding him. He's a good ball player.


Where would I rank him all-time power forwards? I have a hard time putting Pau Gasol in the top 25 all-time on my list.


I have a hard time putting Pau Gasol above these names:

Maurice Lucas
Rasheed Wallace
Connie Hawkins
Shawn Kemp
Bob McAdoo
Chris Weber


the Bulls defensive is fantastic and Gasol averages 11 rebounds in 31 mins.

valade16
01-02-2016, 04:31 PM
It is remarkable how few accolades Pau had considering how good he's been; truly the golden age of PFs between him, KG, Dirk, Duncan (and even guys like C-Webb and Sheed).

JasonJohnHorn
01-02-2016, 06:23 PM
Lmao you're dreaming if you think Pau would be as good as Duncan on the Spurs. That's like saying Drexler would be MJ under Jackson. Pop is a good coach but you way overrate coaches in the NBA if you think he would turn Pau into Duncan. Duncan is a way better defender, scorer, and rebounder - no argument there in the least. He's also way better on the P&R. Even in passing Duncan is better. Maybe Pau is a better midrange shooter but that's about all he's got. Hell Duncan is better at 39 than Pau is at 35 this season probably (he definitely was last year).

Pau was very good at almost everything a big man does - Duncan was elite at literally everything except midrange, where is merely very good. You don't win 5 titles as the best player by just being "pretty good" like Pau no matter who the coach is.


I think you are responding to what you think you read, and not what I wrote. No where did I say that Pau would be as good as Duncan. That is simply not there. I wrote the Spurs could (read: not would)have won as many titles.

And if 'pretty good' is how you would describe a future HOF, then I think you are under selling Gasol's skill set. He is, after all, a player who manage to bring the Grizz into the West with a bunch of role players when the West was at one of its deepest times, and then went to three straight NBA finals when paired with a fellow franchise player. Gasol is no chump. He is a champion and proven winner.

If Gasol can pull off 3 finals and two rings in 4 years with Jackson and Kobe, I don't think five in 20 seasons with Pop and a combination of D-Rob, Parker, Manu, and then Leonard is so far fetched.

Chronz
01-02-2016, 06:50 PM
Clearly some of you guys don't know the role of a "Power Forward". Although the power forward role has changed a bit in today's game. It's still the same in most aspects. The power forward is a interior scorer, he's a rebounder, he plays most with his back to the basket, he help give strength to the teams defense, A power forwards usually 6 feet 8 inches to 6 feet 11 .


So, why is Pau Gasol a 7footer always outside shooting the ball? Why is it that Pau just get lost when guys are banging and crashing the boards? That's why he fell out with the Lakers. Pau just didn't want to play good defense, or crash the boards. Someone ranked Pau over Elvin Hayes...lol!!! Elvin Hayes is number 4 all-time in rebounds! Pau isn't in the top 40 in rebounds! C'mon! Do Pau help give strength to the defence?! Not really. Thibs had all kinds of problems with Pau playing tough defense. The Lakers and Kobe were pulling their hair out with Pau's defense. Look at the Bulls defense right now...


Pau is a soft batch. He plays well when a shorter guy is guarding him. He's a good ball player.


Where would I rank him all-time power forwards? I have a hard time putting Pau Gasol in the top 25 all-time on my list.


I have a hard time putting Pau Gasol above these names:

Maurice Lucas
Rasheed Wallace
Connie Hawkins
Shawn Kemp
Bob McAdoo
Chris Weber

Gasol is an interior presence who wants post touches, the reason hes drifted towards the perimeter with LA was due to Bynum/Dwights insistence on getting those same shots (at a lower clip of efficiency) and D'Antoni's infatuation with stretch-4's. Its funny because everything you said was exactly the opposite reason Pau was let go and why hes had something of a resurrection in Chicago. Hes posted the best rebounding and defensive numbers of his career on a fine defensive team, whereas in LA he was miscast as an outlet shooter who had to defend more 4's than he should have. Had LA been smart they would have played Pau at the 5 and focus their efforts around that gameplan.

Elvin Hayes ranking so high in raw rebounds doesn't make him a greater player

JasonJohnHorn
01-02-2016, 11:35 PM
I stil take Dirk I do think Pau has had a few superior years throughout their prime. Which years would you give the nod to Dirk/Pau?

It's a tough call for me. I feel like, if I were a GM drafting either one a 22 and knew I'd get to keep them straight to 35, I'd pick Pau for sure. If you ask me to rank them based on how they compare with other players, I'd put Dirk ahead. Dirk has one ring, but he's the leader of that team. Pau has two as the second option. I think being the franchise player carries more weight in all-time rankings, but my guy tells me Gasol would be a better piece to build around.


I remember watching that Grizzlies team. It was Pau and role players, and they were competing with the stellar T-Wolves team, the Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton Lakers, the Spurs, and the Kings. Then the Suns and the Mavs. This was a conference where 44 win didn't get you in the post season. And who'd he have? Posey? Battier? Miller? Bonzi Wells? Turn over machine Jason Williams? I mean, Dirk had Nash, Findley, Antoine Walker, Jamison... all in what are supposed to be their prime years and he only managed 2 more wins than Gasol.

To me... that speaks volumes about what Gasol did. You look at 04, and what Dirk had and what Gasol had, and then you say: Dirk's team only got two more wins? And both got knocked out in the first round.

Statistically, it's hard to make a case that says Gasol is better. I will admit that. I mean, Gasol is clearly the better play maker, better rebounds, and better defender. Dirk is the better shooter. I think people underrate Gasol's defense (not to suggest that he was ever dominant, but he was always good in my book). People will say: yeah Duncan only ever usually averaged around 20 a game but his defensive is show stopping. Gasol is the same kind of offensive player as Duncan. Great in the post, solid jumper, commands the double team, lets coaches build shots for other players based on the way defenses have to play him. As a result, he doesn't score as much as Dirk, but he still has as big an impact on the offense in my mind.

He's a better scorer inside the arc, and certainly in the paint, but Dirk blows him out of the water from long range. But to me, since that's not Pau's game, it's like saying: Rodman is a better rebounder than Pippen. Yeah. That's what he built his game around. Dirk's strength is his shooter; Gasol's is his post play/rebounding and playmaking.

Comparing Dirk and Gasol is a little bit like apples and oranges. But Gasol has been to the finals three times, and has two rings. His team success has been stellar throughout his career. He always makes teams better even when you are comparing team success on non-contenders, Gasol has been able to get more out of less, as seen in Memphis and even in Chicago. I think Dirk was limited in the Nash/Findley/Dirk era by coaching. I think that 04 roster would have won a lot more games with a better coach, and I think that Memphis team would have won far fewer games with Don Nelson at the helm, so I don't want to sound critical of Dirk, because I think those failings are from coaching, not from Dirk.


But Gasol in 06-11 might not have been scoring as much as Dirk, but his all-around game was better. But with two greats like this, it's really splitting hairs and more about how you think a team should run.


Guy who are a fan of the 3-ball will got with Dirk. Guys who know the value of first getting the guy who commands and double team and has strong passing skills and doesn't need to be shooting 18 shots a game will realize how valuable Gasol is to build a team around.

I think we missed out on a great pairing not being able to see them play together at the C and PF. That's for sure.

Sorry to the ramble.

flea
01-03-2016, 02:09 AM
I think you are responding to what you think you read, and not what I wrote. No where did I say that Pau would be as good as Duncan. That is simply not there. I wrote the Spurs could (read: not would)have won as many titles.

And if 'pretty good' is how you would describe a future HOF, then I think you are under selling Gasol's skill set. He is, after all, a player who manage to bring the Grizz into the West with a bunch of role players when the West was at one of its deepest times, and then went to three straight NBA finals when paired with a fellow franchise player. Gasol is no chump. He is a champion and proven winner.

If Gasol can pull off 3 finals and two rings in 4 years with Jackson and Kobe, I don't think five in 20 seasons with Pop and a combination of D-Rob, Parker, Manu, and then Leonard is so far fetched.

K, well my point stands: do you think Drexler could have won 5 or 6 titles with the 90s Bulls instead of MJ? Because I don't. How many players in NBA history have won 5 titles as the best player on his team (not counting the 60s Celtics)? MJ, KAJ, and... that's it.

I guess anything is possible but I would put the probability of Pau winning 5 rings in Duncan's place at less than 1% considering only (arguably) 3 guys besides Duncan have ever done it.

JasonJohnHorn
01-03-2016, 10:27 AM
K, well my point stands: do you think Drexler could have won 5 or 6 titles with the 90s Bulls instead of MJ? Because I don't. How many players in NBA history have won 5 titles as the best player on his team (not counting the 60s Celtics)? MJ, KAJ, and... that's it.

I guess anything is possible but I would put the probability of Pau winning 5 rings in Duncan's place at less than 1% considering only (arguably) 3 guys besides Duncan have ever done it.

Could the Bulls have won 5 or 6 with Drexler? That is a completely different question, but I'll bite: yes, though I think 3 or 4 is more likely. Keep in mind the Bulls pretty much swept their way to a title in 91. Put Drexler on there instead of MJ, and maybe a couple of those series go to six games, but they still dominate. They'd also have two more years of contending, since MJ left and Drexler didn't. With Rodman Drexler would have done well. 97 and 98 would have required more work, as Drexler didn't age as well, but even then he was averaging around 20/5/5. And Drexler was never the 'take 20 shots a game' kind of player that Jordan was. Those Portland teams were deep and they shared the ball. With the Bulls, Drexler would have allowed Pippen and Kukoc to flourish even more.

You ask, though, how many players won 5 titles as the best player on their team. The only guy that's done that is Jordan. Kareem was not the best player on the team in 87 and 88: Magic was. Duncan, if you look at the MVP awards, was also not the best player on the team.


Offensively, the Spurs would have worked as well with Gasol. There is no doubt to that in my mind. Gasol has a slightly higher career FG%, but the two are extremely competitive in that respect, and Pau has been a better FT shooter throughout his career and gets to the line nearly as much as Duncan, and he is every bit as good a passer as Duncan, and perhaps even a little better (their career assist numbers are about equal with a slight edge going to Gasol who had higher peak years than Duncan in that respect).

That said, there is no question that the Spurs would be better defensively with Duncan, and that Duncan in the superior rebounder, but Pop's defensive schemes are second to none in the league, and Gasol is not only a good defensive player; he is extremely coachable.

Could the Spurs have won 5 titles with Gasol instead of Duncan? Absolutely. Certainly they could have won 3 or 4 times. I don't think that is an unreasonable assessment.

Could the Bulls have won 5 titles with Drexler. Yes. They would have leaned a little more heavily on the support cast because Drexler didn't feel the need to dominate the ball like Jordan did, and Pippen and other players would have had higher averages, but yes, that still would have been a team that was a perennial contender for a decade.

Gander13SM
01-03-2016, 02:51 PM
People forget how incredible Gasols ball handling was. He's up there with almost any PF in that regard when you look at his prime.

When the Lakers had him in that pinch post role he was killing it.

I don't do all time lists. But I have him as top 5 at his position for his era.

Gander13SM
01-03-2016, 02:55 PM
Gasol is an interior presence who wants post touches, the reason hes drifted towards the perimeter with LA was due to Bynum/Dwights insistence on getting those same shots (at a lower clip of efficiency) and D'Antoni's infatuation with stretch-4's. Its funny because everything you said was exactly the opposite reason Pau was let go and why hes had something of a resurrection in Chicago. Hes posted the best rebounding and defensive numbers of his career on a fine defensive team, whereas in LA he was miscast as an outlet shooter who had to defend more 4's than he should have. Had LA been smart they would have played Pau at the 5 and focus their efforts around that gameplan.

Elvin Hayes ranking so high in raw rebounds doesn't make him a greater player

Elvin Hayes was a great player though. Not because of those numbers. But he was great. Top 3 of his era easily.

Chronz
01-03-2016, 03:17 PM
Elvin Hayes was a great player though. Not because of those numbers. But he was great. Top 3 of his era easily.

Great player as in... top50? Best 3 of his era, no way. Not even close

Shlumpledink
01-03-2016, 03:56 PM
Duncan
Garnett
Dirk
Malone
Mchale
Barkley
Gasol

Gander13SM
01-03-2016, 05:36 PM
Great player as in... top50? Best 3 of his era, no way. Not even close

I meant at his position. He was easily top 3. In fact I would happily argue top 2.

And I don't do all time lists. If I did I reckon he would be in my top 10 at the PF but I'm not wanting to get into that because I've never really liked all time rankings.

valade16
01-03-2016, 06:31 PM
Great player as in... top50? Best 3 of his era, no way. Not even close

Well if we give credence to accolades or sentiment of the players at the time Hayes is greater than a lot of the guys generally ranked higher than him by PSD.

Chronz
01-03-2016, 06:32 PM
It's a tough call for me. I feel like, if I were a GM drafting either one a 22 and knew I'd get to keep them straight to 35, I'd pick Pau for sure. If you ask me to rank them based on how they compare with other players, I'd put Dirk ahead. Dirk has one ring, but he's the leader of that team. Pau has two as the second option. I think being the franchise player carries more weight in all-time rankings, but my guy tells me Gasol would be a better piece to build around.


I remember watching that Grizzlies team. It was Pau and role players, and they were competing with the stellar T-Wolves team, the Shaq/Kobe/Malone/Payton Lakers, the Spurs, and the Kings. Then the Suns and the Mavs. This was a conference where 44 win didn't get you in the post season. And who'd he have? Posey? Battier? Miller? Bonzi Wells? Turn over machine Jason Williams? I mean, Dirk had Nash, Findley, Antoine Walker, Jamison... all in what are supposed to be their prime years and he only managed 2 more wins than Gasol.

To me... that speaks volumes about what Gasol did. You look at 04, and what Dirk had and what Gasol had, and then you say: Dirk's team only got two more wins? And both got knocked out in the first round.

Statistically, it's hard to make a case that says Gasol is better. I will admit that. I mean, Gasol is clearly the better play maker, better rebounds, and better defender. Dirk is the better shooter. I think people underrate Gasol's defense (not to suggest that he was ever dominant, but he was always good in my book). People will say: yeah Duncan only ever usually averaged around 20 a game but his defensive is show stopping. Gasol is the same kind of offensive player as Duncan. Great in the post, solid jumper, commands the double team, lets coaches build shots for other players based on the way defenses have to play him. As a result, he doesn't score as much as Dirk, but he still has as big an impact on the offense in my mind.

He's a better scorer inside the arc, and certainly in the paint, but Dirk blows him out of the water from long range. But to me, since that's not Pau's game, it's like saying: Rodman is a better rebounder than Pippen. Yeah. That's what he built his game around. Dirk's strength is his shooter; Gasol's is his post play/rebounding and playmaking.

Comparing Dirk and Gasol is a little bit like apples and oranges. But Gasol has been to the finals three times, and has two rings. His team success has been stellar throughout his career. He always makes teams better even when you are comparing team success on non-contenders, Gasol has been able to get more out of less, as seen in Memphis and even in Chicago. I think Dirk was limited in the Nash/Findley/Dirk era by coaching. I think that 04 roster would have won a lot more games with a better coach, and I think that Memphis team would have won far fewer games with Don Nelson at the helm, so I don't want to sound critical of Dirk, because I think those failings are from coaching, not from Dirk.


But Gasol in 06-11 might not have been scoring as much as Dirk, but his all-around game was better. But with two greats like this, it's really splitting hairs and more about how you think a team should run.


Guy who are a fan of the 3-ball will got with Dirk. Guys who know the value of first getting the guy who commands and double team and has strong passing skills and doesn't need to be shooting 18 shots a game will realize how valuable Gasol is to build a team around.

I think we missed out on a great pairing not being able to see them play together at the C and PF. That's for sure.

Sorry to the ramble.

Ramblings are fine in this era of PSD. May start rambling more myself, but I was more interested in a breakdown year by year. Ill start it off and assess your year (04) once we get there. Keep in mind this is mostly a statistical breakdown, so if you disagree with me, plz let me know where.

Now we could do it the fair way (by age), but I will do it by looking at it year by year, despite their stages of development, tho Pau was better as a rookie.

From 98-00, Dirk was still developing and you could easily argue as Pau being the superior prospect for ages 20-21. 2001 was when Dirk broke out into All-Star form and Pau wasn't in the league yet, so brownie points there.

2002 - Pau's rookie year and Dirk had improved upon his initial All-Star showing and would continue to do so until the 04 season, when Cuban foolishly added Antoine Walker and stunted the growth of both Nash and Dirk. Still, despite that he was outpacing Gasol in terms of production+wins.

So back top that 04 season, you mentioned +2 more wins, but that was actually a step back for the Mavs. The year prior they had won 60 games, thats when the owner of a team sporting the best offense in the league (Thx to the Nash+Dirk+Finley triumvirate) got the idea that it needed an inefficient playmaker to take the ball out of the hands of its best players. Its why they immediately improved upon jettisoning Walker, they simply didn't need to surround Dirk with inefficient support.

From 04 to 07, Dirk was consistently more productive and winning more games, which isn't the end all be all, but you have to be pretty imaginative to put Pau on his platform.

From 08 and on is when it actually becomes a debate but its still a fairly close call for the most part. I think Dirks superior peak and first few years separate him from Pau.

You dont have to rebound well offensively when you're spacing the floor and improving the efficiency of your teammates as a result. The goal isn't to rebound, but to score the ball on that end. Dirk also raised his level of defensive rebounding come post season so I dont think its as great of an advantage as you think. As far as passing, its a much closer argument but I feel Dirk is underrated in facilitating ball movement. Defensively, at his peak Dirk was a smart positional defender, but yeah, Pau is much better on that end.

DboneG
01-03-2016, 07:25 PM
Where do you rank Pau Gasol?


All-Time ....Not even in my top 25 all-time.


Pau is a good ball player, He has the size, but, he's only effective against smaller players. (Like Tim Duncan)
He has all the tools you need to be a great player, but, lacks the intensity on defense to be a great player. He seems to get lost when guys are fighting/battling for the rebound. The ball is on the rim, it's late in the game, the crowd is screaming and Pau don't want to stick his nose in there to get the ball. (Like Dennis Rodman/Paul Silas) There are times Pau will give up position in the paint and get out muscled. Power Forward?! Pau is not good at closing out shooters, he also lack mental toughness.


I have a hard time ranking him over:

Larry Jonhson
Dan Issel
Paul Silas
Jack Sikma
Dan Roundfield

Chronz
01-03-2016, 08:29 PM
Where do you rank Pau Gasol?


All-Time ....Not even in my top 25 all-time.


Pau is a good ball player, He has the size, but, he's only effective against smaller players. (Like Tim Duncan)
He has all the tools you need to be a great player, but, lacks the intensity on defense to be a great player. He seems to get lost when guys are fighting/battling for the rebound. The ball is on the rim, it's late in the game, the crowd is screaming and Pau don't want to stick his nose in there to get the ball. (Like Dennis Rodman/Paul Silas) There are times Pau will give up position in the paint and get out muscled. Power Forward?! Pau is not good at closing out shooters, he also lack mental toughness.


I have a hard time ranking him over:

Larry Jonhson
Dan Issel
Paul Silas
Jack Sikma
Dan Roundfield

If being effective against Tim Duncan is somehow a negative in your book then I wouldn't care to know much more beyond that. Then again, you could be trolling, clever

JasonJohnHorn
01-03-2016, 09:33 PM
Ramblings are fine in this era of PSD. May start rambling more myself, but I was more interested in a breakdown year by year. Ill start it off and assess your year (04) once we get there. Keep in mind this is mostly a statistical breakdown, so if you disagree with me, plz let me know where.

Now we could do it the fair way (by age), but I will do it by looking at it year by year, despite their stages of development, tho Pau was better as a rookie.

From 98-00, Dirk was still developing and you could easily argue as Pau being the superior prospect for ages 20-21. 2001 was when Dirk broke out into All-Star form and Pau wasn't in the league yet, so brownie points there.

2002 - Pau's rookie year and Dirk had improved upon his initial All-Star showing and would continue to do so until the 04 season, when Cuban foolishly added Antoine Walker and stunted the growth of both Nash and Dirk. Still, despite that he was outpacing Gasol in terms of production+wins.

So back top that 04 season, you mentioned +2 more wins, but that was actually a step back for the Mavs. The year prior they had won 60 games, thats when the owner of a team sporting the best offense in the league (Thx to the Nash+Dirk+Finley triumvirate) got the idea that it needed an inefficient playmaker to take the ball out of the hands of its best players. Its why they immediately improved upon jettisoning Walker, they simply didn't need to surround Dirk with inefficient support.

From 04 to 07, Dirk was consistently more productive and winning more games, which isn't the end all be all, but you have to be pretty imaginative to put Pau on his platform.

From 08 and on is when it actually becomes a debate but its still a fairly close call for the most part. I think Dirks superior peak and first few years separate him from Pau.

You dont have to rebound well offensively when you're spacing the floor and improving the efficiency of your teammates as a result. The goal isn't to rebound, but to score the ball on that end. Dirk also raised his level of defensive rebounding come post season so I dont think its as great of an advantage as you think. As far as passing, its a much closer argument but I feel Dirk is underrated in facilitating ball movement. Defensively, at his peak Dirk was a smart positional defender, but yeah, Pau is much better on that end.

Nothing to disagree with there. Sounds pretty thorough to me. Like I said, I feel its like splitting hairs with these guys. They are both great, but I feel Gasol gets underrated.

flea
01-03-2016, 09:59 PM
Could the Bulls have won 5 or 6 with Drexler? That is a completely different question, but I'll bite: yes, though I think 3 or 4 is more likely. Keep in mind the Bulls pretty much swept their way to a title in 91. Put Drexler on there instead of MJ, and maybe a couple of those series go to six games, but they still dominate. They'd also have two more years of contending, since MJ left and Drexler didn't. With Rodman Drexler would have done well. 97 and 98 would have required more work, as Drexler didn't age as well, but even then he was averaging around 20/5/5. And Drexler was never the 'take 20 shots a game' kind of player that Jordan was. Those Portland teams were deep and they shared the ball. With the Bulls, Drexler would have allowed Pippen and Kukoc to flourish even more.

Sometimes people underrate MJ's Bull teammates depending on their agenda but there's no way I think Drexler wins 5 or 6 with them. Probably none in the first 3-peat, probably 2 but maybe 3 from the 2nd. MJ was way too important to all of those teams to just think a guy who didn't win any titles as the best player would win 5.


You ask, though, how many players won 5 titles as the best player on their team. The only guy that's done that is Jordan. Kareem was not the best player on the team in 87 and 88: Magic was. Duncan, if you look at the MVP awards, was also not the best player on the team.

Arguable for 87, Kareem was still the first half-court option and best defender but he was old and it was a definite team effort as they were well into the running era where Worthy/Magic were racking up production.

As for Duncan he was definitely the best for the first 4. There are some, but not many, that think he wasn't the best in 2014. It was way more of a team effort (like the 87 Lakers) but he was the minutes leader, rebounds leader, best defender, crunch time scorer, and 2nd leading scorer. You have to be very creative to argue Parker or Leonard was better for that title considering this version of Parker is nothing like prime Parker and Leonard was a raw cutter and shooter at that time on offense.



Offensively, the Spurs would have worked as well with Gasol. There is no doubt to that in my mind. Gasol has a slightly higher career FG%, but the two are extremely competitive in that respect, and Pau has been a better FT shooter throughout his career and gets to the line nearly as much as Duncan, and he is every bit as good a passer as Duncan, and perhaps even a little better (their career assist numbers are about equal with a slight edge going to Gasol who had higher peak years than Duncan in that respect).

That said, there is no question that the Spurs would be better defensively with Duncan, and that Duncan in the superior rebounder, but Pop's defensive schemes are second to none in the league, and Gasol is not only a good defensive player; he is extremely coachable.

Could the Spurs have won 5 titles with Gasol instead of Duncan? Absolutely. Certainly they could have won 3 or 4 times. I don't think that is an unreasonable assessment.

As to first bolded - how? What on earth is this based on? You are way underrating Duncan's offense if you think Gasol was just as good. No reasonable human can argue defense or boards but he was significantly better on the other end as well. I'll even spot you that Gasol is a slightly better passer, though I don't agree at all because I consider Duncan one of the 5 best passing big men there has been (on the order of Kareem, KG, Webber, etc.).

Here are some actual stats instead of just going with "better FG%" because this just isn't close in the least. These are per 100 possession playoffs stats from the beginning of each player's career to age 34 (Gasol's age at last playoffs):

Gasol: 23.7/13.8/4.8 with .8 steals, 2.6 blocks, and 2.8 TOs on 51.6% 2 point FG and 73.9% FT (115 games and 4370 MP)

Duncan: 31.2/17.0/4.7 with 1 steal, 3.5 blocks, and 4.1 TOs on 50.5% 2 point FG and 67.8% FT (176 games and 6952 MP)

Duncan was a way better low block guy and a way better P&R guy. Gasol was and is mainly a high post triple threat guy. Duncan can do that too but Gasol has the better J and I'll concede he's better at that. But back to the basket, drives, pullups, short range shooting, and P&R is all Duncan. And the stat lines just don't even compare.

Maybe Gasol on Spurs wins 5 rings, but it would take monumental efforts by Ginobili and Robinson early and Parker and Leonard late. If they were capable of such performances the Spurs likely 3-peat 03-05 or 05-07.

MonroeFAN
01-03-2016, 10:35 PM
Top 10 of all time? How about some responses from people who have been watching the NBA for more than 10 years.

PurpleLynch
01-04-2016, 09:45 AM
Top 10 of all time? How about some responses from people who have been watching the NBA for more than 10 years.

Then write your top 10 and let us see what you mean. Pau Gasol is a fantastic player,the best spanish player of all time imo and he carved his place in the all time great of his position.
With the exclusion of Duncan,Barkley,Malone,KG,Nowitzki,Pettit and maybe Hayes,I don't see why he couldn't be in one of the last three places of a potential top 10.

Rodman or McHale over Pau?(and Rodman is my favourite player of all time along with Kobe)
Maybe yes,maybe no. The fact is tha he's surely the best european player that came to the Nba after Nowitzki,career wise. Hard to not put him in a PF top 10.

DboneG
01-04-2016, 10:53 AM
"Pau is a good ball player, He has the size, but, he's only effective against smaller players. (Like Tim Duncan)"


Meaning: Pau Gasol, like Tim Duncan are mainly effective against smaller players guarding them. If you put a guy with size and length on them...they'll run to the outside, start shooting jump shots and running behind pick and rolls. They both are on the soft side


I'd have a hard time putting him in my top 25....he's soft.

The only rebounds Pau get, are the ones that come to him. He get a lot of rebounds off missed free throws. I rarely see Pau going after the ball with intensity.

Tony_Starks
01-04-2016, 11:22 AM
Pre Lakers: solid allstar, but folds under pressure.
Lakers title stretch: first tier allstar/ top 3 Bigs in the game
Lakers Jimmy Bus tenure: solid Big man- somewhat shell of himself ( due to mismanagement)
Post Lakers: legit allstar Big with flashes of prime.

Gander13SM
01-04-2016, 12:06 PM
"Pau is a good ball player, He has the size, but, he's only effective against smaller players. (Like Tim Duncan)"


Meaning: Pau Gasol, like Tim Duncan are mainly effective against smaller players guarding them. If you put a guy with size and length on them...they'll run to the outside, start shooting jump shots and running behind pick and rolls. They both are on the soft side


I'd have a hard time putting him in my top 25....he's soft.

The only rebounds Pau get, are the ones that come to him. He get a lot of rebounds off missed free throws. I rarely see Pau going after the ball with intensity.

Lmao Duncan soft? Come on. You must be really young? Nobody who watched prime Duncan would dare call him soft. The same guy that grabbed 20 boards over Shaq & the Lakers while dropping 30 points on them? The same guy that averaged 25-16-5-3 on his way to a chip? The same guy that posterized Ben Wallace and made him his bi*** ??

Nah. Sorry. Not having it.

Gander13SM
01-05-2016, 04:54 AM
Should have added a poll to this.

Munkeysuit
01-05-2016, 06:11 AM
Top 15 easily

MonroeFAN
01-05-2016, 09:16 AM
Top 10 of all time? How about some responses from people who have been watching the NBA for more than 10 years.

Then write your top 10 and let us see what you mean. Pau Gasol is a fantastic player,the best spanish player of all time imo and he carved his place in the all time great of his position.
With the exclusion of Duncan,Barkley,Malone,KG,Nowitzki,Pettit and maybe Hayes,I don't see why he couldn't be in one of the last three places of a potential top 10.

Rodman or McHale over Pau?(and Rodman is my favourite player of all time along with Kobe)
Maybe yes,maybe no. The fact is tha he's surely the best european player that came to the Nba after Nowitzki,career wise. Hard to not put him in a PF top 10.

Best player from Spain? Who gives a...

I think you guys are vastly over rating Pau, and vastly under rating the rule changes that took place before he became a dominant player.

I strongly doubt he would have survived in a league like Rodman did. I'll work on a list, but he won't be in the top 20. Waaaaaaay to much emphasis placed on modern players in these current top lists. It's like suggesting that QB's who throw for 5,000 yards in the modern day nfl are HOF players. All of these stats are inflated, every last one of them. He was a solid young big who managed to make the playoffs once (?) in Vancouver/Memphis, then he joined a top 10 player of all time and won some championships. He's become a top forward option in the league currently, on a stacked line up that is going no where. You're talking about a league that has been around since 1946. These top 10 lists suck.

kdspurman
01-05-2016, 09:37 AM
"Pau is a good ball player, He has the size, but, he's only effective against smaller players. (Like Tim Duncan)"


Meaning: Pau Gasol, like Tim Duncan are mainly effective against smaller players guarding them. If you put a guy with size and length on them...they'll run to the outside, start shooting jump shots and running behind pick and rolls. They both are on the soft side


I'd have a hard time putting him in my top 25....he's soft.

The only rebounds Pau get, are the ones that come to him. He get a lot of rebounds off missed free throws. I rarely see Pau going after the ball with intensity.

Haha, Tim doesn't even do that now, let alone in his prime... I'm guessing you didn't/don't watch much of him

valade16
01-05-2016, 10:02 AM
Best player from Spain? Who gives a...

I think you guys are vastly over rating Pau, and vastly under rating the rule changes that took place before he became a dominant player.

I strongly doubt he would have survived in a league like Rodman did. I'll work on a list, but he won't be in the top 20. Waaaaaaay to much emphasis placed on modern players in these current top lists. It's like suggesting that QB's who throw for 5,000 yards in the modern day nfl are HOF players. All of these stats are inflated, every last one of them. He was a solid young big who managed to make the playoffs once (?) in Vancouver/Memphis, then he joined a top 10 player of all time and won some championships. He's become a top forward option in the league currently, on a stacked line up that is going no where. You're talking about a league that has been around since 1946. These top 10 lists suck.

The only QBs to throw for 5,000 yds in a season are Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Dan Marino and Matt Stafford. 4/5 of those are easily Hall of Famers. The next closest is Ben Roethlisberger at 4,950 and he will and should be a Hall of Famer too :shrug:

valade16
01-05-2016, 10:08 AM
McHale / Pau is an interesting comparison because both were second fiddles on championship teams who put up sterling advanced stats.

One could make a fairly convincing argument McHale was both the better offensive and defensive player, although I don't think there's any doubt that Pau was both a better passer and rebounder.

MonroeFAN
01-05-2016, 10:22 AM
Best player from Spain? Who gives a...

I think you guys are vastly over rating Pau, and vastly under rating the rule changes that took place before he became a dominant player.

I strongly doubt he would have survived in a league like Rodman did. I'll work on a list, but he won't be in the top 20. Waaaaaaay to much emphasis placed on modern players in these current top lists. It's like suggesting that QB's who throw for 5,000 yards in the modern day nfl are HOF players. All of these stats are inflated, every last one of them. He was a solid young big who managed to make the playoffs once (?) in Vancouver/Memphis, then he joined a top 10 player of all time and won some championships. He's become a top forward option in the league currently, on a stacked line up that is going no where. You're talking about a league that has been around since 1946. These top 10 lists suck.

The only QBs to throw for 5,000 yds in a season are Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, Tom Brady, Dan Marino and Matt Stafford. 4/5 of those are easily Hall of Famers. The next closest is Ben Roethlisberger at 4,950 and he will and should be a Hall of Famer too :shrug:

3 players did it in one season. Before then it had been done 2 times. If you don't grasp the concept of rule changes strongly effecting that then I don't care Buddy. Forget HOF, you found a minor technicality in my argument.

YAALREADYKNO
01-05-2016, 10:25 AM
He's a great complimentary player to have if you already have another superstar on your team. Wouldn't want him as my first option tho

valade16
01-05-2016, 12:51 PM
3 players did it in one season. Before then it had been done 2 times. If you don't grasp the concept of rule changes strongly effecting that then I don't care Buddy. Forget HOF, you found a minor technicality in my argument.

I get that rule changes can affect statistics but just because a players statistics are affected by a rule change doesn't mean they wouldn't have been good without them. Pau is an immensely skilled big man who would have been good in any era. Heck, before all these rule changes people point to in 2002, as a rookie, he dropped 17 PPG, 9 RPG and 2 BPG...

ewing
01-05-2016, 01:03 PM
I get that rule changes can affect statistics but just because a players statistics are affected by a rule change doesn't mean they wouldn't have been good without them. Pau is an immensely skilled big man who would have been good in any era. Heck, before all these rule changes people point to in 2002, as a rookie, he dropped 17 PPG, 9 RPG and 2 BPG...



yeah its crazy, he acts like Pau would have been trash in a prior era and Dennis Rodman would have been the **** in any era. Its the opposite.

flea
01-05-2016, 01:12 PM
I would definitely take Pau over Rodman in any era.

MonroeFAN
01-05-2016, 01:51 PM
Cool

MonroeFAN
01-05-2016, 01:55 PM
3 players did it in one season. Before then it had been done 2 times. If you don't grasp the concept of rule changes strongly effecting that then I don't care Buddy. Forget HOF, you found a minor technicality in my argument.

I get that rule changes can affect statistics but just because a players statistics are affected by a rule change doesn't mean they wouldn't have been good without them. Pau is an immensely skilled big man who would have been good in any era. Heck, before all these rule changes people point to in 2002, as a rookie, he dropped 17 PPG, 9 RPG and 2 BPG...

That's basically the extent of his numbers though. They never became that much better, and he didn't win much on his own.

If we compile a list of players with Pau's credentials the list will exceed 20 PF's. A lot of emphasis placed on championships. Dude is a skilled player, would absolutely kill to have him on my team although he doesn't match the scheme. But it's not like he was a monster on either side of the court. He was an elite complimentary player.

Chronz
01-05-2016, 04:09 PM
McHale / Pau is an interesting comparison because both were second fiddles on championship teams who put up sterling advanced stats.

One could make a fairly convincing argument McHale was both the better offensive and defensive player, although I don't think there's any doubt that Pau was both a better passer and rebounder.
Both were skilled on the blocks, versatile defensively and both also stopped winning titles after age 29.

At their absolute apex, I dont think you would get too many arguments against McHale, however slight that advantage may be. What gives this to Gasol is that most of these lists revolve around a players prime run, longevity and thats their legacy more than who was actually the better player at his best. McHale had that one season where Bird really pushed to help motivate him and he had that 1 MVP caliber year. IIRC that was the year he broke his foot and was never the same again, feel free to double check me here but that means after 29 he was never the same defender again. Considering he was basically a reserve for his first 3 years (and 2 titles), that means he was only at the top of his game from 26-29. He was still in his prime for awhile after that, remained an AS caliber guy till about 33 or so and raised his game come playoffs til the day he retired.

Is that kind of longevity trumping a guy who was producing at All-Star levels sooner and remains so till this day? A guy who won a title while at the top of his game (for legacy purposes)?

valade16
01-05-2016, 04:19 PM
Both were skilled on the blocks, versatile defensively and both also stopped winning titles after age 29.

At their absolute apex, I dont think you would get too many arguments against McHale, however slight that advantage may be. What gives this to Gasol is that most of these lists revolve around a players prime run, longevity and thats their legacy more than who was actually the better player at his best. McHale had that one season where Bird really pushed to help motivate him and he had that 1 MVP caliber year. IIRC that was the year he broke his foot and was never the same again, feel free to double check me here but that means after 29 he was never the same defender again. Considering he was basically a reserve for his first 3 years (and 2 titles), that means he was only at the top of his game from 26-29. He was still in his prime for awhile after that, remained an AS caliber guy till about 33 or so and raised his game come playoffs til the day he retired.

Is that kind of longevity trumping a guy who was producing at All-Star levels sooner and remains so till this day? A guy who won a title while at the top of his game (for legacy purposes)?

That's why I said it was an interesting comparison. My personal evaluation tends to favor peak over longevity.

Although he was a reserve, McHale was putting up 19 PPG and 8 RPG as back to back 6MOY, so I think that is still pretty solid. It looks like he had about 8 seasons of high end production (albeit 4 as a bench player) whereas Gasol has about 13 seasons (and counting) of similar production.

That is a great question, how much longevity trumps slightly higher peak? I'm not sure to be honest. They are close enough to make it a debate that's for sure.

valade16
01-05-2016, 04:19 PM
EDIT: Duplicate Post.

valade16
01-05-2016, 04:20 PM
EDIT: Duplicate post.

MonroeFAN
01-05-2016, 04:31 PM
Jeez say it don't spray it.

/mobile app

G_S_W
01-05-2016, 04:40 PM
Soft, like charmin

MonroeFAN
01-05-2016, 04:43 PM
^ finally someone who understands.

PurpleLynch
01-06-2016, 10:07 AM
^ finally someone who understands.

Lol,that poster said that the Ncaa is a better product than the Nba.

Tg11
01-06-2016, 01:10 PM
Pau is top 20 but not top 10 not even close

YAALREADYKNO
01-06-2016, 05:21 PM
I just don't know how anyone can rank him over Dirk or even Chris webber

jbooth
01-06-2016, 05:45 PM
Starting an NBA dynasty League on ESPN if anybody is interested. Standard Scoring, 16 teams, 15 man rosters, 10 keepers every year. Using real NBA team names. These are the teams open:


East
1. Boston Celtics 0-0
2. Cleveland Cavaliers 0-0
3. Miami Heat 0-0
4. New York Knicks 0-0

West
1. Golden State Warriors 0-0
2. Los Angeles Lakers 0-0
3. Phoenix Suns 0-0
4. Portland Trail Blazers 0-0

Central
2. Oklahoma City Thunder 0-0
3. Utah Jazz 0-0
4. Memphis Grizzlies 0-0

South
1. San Antonio Spurs 0-0
2. Dallas Mavericks 0-0
3. New Orleans Pelicans 0-0
4. Charlotte Bobcats 0-0

Draft date and time will be determined after all teams have joined.

Message me on here your email and what team you would like to be if you want to join!!!

Chronz
01-06-2016, 06:06 PM
I just don't know how anyone can rank him over Dirk or even Chris webber

Longevity+Chips in the case vs Webber
VS Dirk? Thats a rarity

Chestbrah
01-06-2016, 10:16 PM
He is one of the best all around players ever, he is top 50 all time and top 7 PF all time and probably top 15 CENTERS ever too. To this moment his averages to this day are Pau Gasol 18,3 PPG 9,46 RPG 3,2 Apg. Bpg 1,68" , i searched for players that have carer averages = or better than that in the WHOLE 4 deparments. Guess waht the list is short.........VERY short
Kareem 24,6 ppg 11,2 rpg 3,6 apg 2,6 bpg
Tim Duncan 19,3 ppg 10,9 rpg, 3,2apg 2,2 bpg
Thats it, everybody falls short at something, ewing falls short at asits ,mchale at rebotes, webber at blocks and etc etc etc etc thats i one of the greatest ALL AROUDN players ever.

Redrum187
01-06-2016, 10:30 PM
I just don't know how anyone can rank him over Dirk or even Chris webber

Ignore Hellcrooner.

FlashBolt
01-06-2016, 10:34 PM
Pau Gasol is way better than Webber. He is the perfect team player IMO. His peak/longevity/consistency/steps up when it matters surpasses Webber. Granted, I'd take Dirk over him but Pau is incredibly underrated. How is the guy soft? Do you people just label someone who's white and moves funny as soft?

YAALREADYKNO
01-06-2016, 11:06 PM
I just don't see it with gasol being better than webber I just don't. Gasol always seemed to be better as a complimentary player than as the number one option. Webber' skill set might've been a top 2-3 PF of all time type of skill set and he turned Sacramento into a power house. I can't see a Sacramento led pau gasol being able to take the lakers to the brink like how they did with webber

basch152
01-06-2016, 11:17 PM
It's criminal how underrated webber gets here.

Peak wise webber was easily a top 5 PF all time.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 01:25 AM
It's criminal how underrated webber gets here.

Peak wise webber was easily a top 5 PF all time.

What? Peak Webber stands no chance against KG/Dirk/Garnett/Malone/Barkley first off. Second, Webber never achieved anything and disappointed in the playoffs countless times. His numbers across the board is filled with stat stuffing with relatively zero progression to winning. Find me the best moments of Webber's career.. I'll wait. He's not top five, sorry. During his "peak", he failed at the playoffs big time.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 01:29 AM
I just don't see it with gasol being better than webber I just don't. Gasol always seemed to be better as a complimentary player than as the number one option. Webber' skill set might've been a top 2-3 PF of all time type of skill set and he turned Sacramento into a power house. I can't see a Sacramento led pau gasol being able to take the lakers to the brink like how they did with webber

Well, you're also looking at a completely different game and system. Would Dirk/Duncan succeed the same if they were playing for Spurs/DAL respectively? Not fair to compare Gasol here. We've seen in the playoffs with Kobe, Gasol showed up when it mattered. Webber's lack of playoff success can be contributed to his own level of play. Longevity is just incredibly short and though he was very talented, are we forgetting that Gasol is incredibly talented in his own right? Easily one of the best passing big man of all-time? He beats him at practically every stat you want to look at and BTW, he takes his game up a notch come playoff time. Not to mention Webber was more of a 1st option than Gasol and thus, had more opportunities to pad his stats.

YAALREADYKNO
01-07-2016, 09:35 AM
Well, you're also looking at a completely different game and system. Would Dirk/Duncan succeed the same if they were playing for Spurs/DAL respectively? Not fair to compare Gasol here. We've seen in the playoffs with Kobe, Gasol showed up when it mattered. Webber's lack of playoff success can be contributed to his own level of play. Longevity is just incredibly short and though he was very talented, are we forgetting that Gasol is incredibly talented in his own right? Easily one of the best passing big man of all-time? He beats him at practically every stat you want to look at and BTW, he takes his game up a notch come playoff time. Not to mention Webber was more of a 1st option than Gasol and thus, had more opportunities to pad his stats.

Webber was just as good of a passer if not better than gasol lol what did gasol ever do when he was the first option in Memphis? Get swept each and every time? Gasol had Kobe to play off of which webber never had the luxury of playing off someone of kobe's level. There's a reason why webber was more of a first option than gasol lmao webber wasn't the best closer but gasol without Kobe wasn't exactly killin it in the playoffs either smh

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 10:10 AM
^ finally someone who understands.

Lol,that poster said that the Ncaa is a better product than the Nba.

Right yeah his comments have otherwise been pretty embarrassing. But he got the Pau one right on the money.

Suggesting he's better or even close to being as good as Webber was is a joke. In pau's wildest dreams he wouldn't average 27 11 and 4. Webber was the victim of the biggest scandal in the NBA. He likely wins a championship, and without Kobe. From an individual talent stand point it's not even close.

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 10:11 AM
^ finally someone who understands.

Lol,that poster said that the Ncaa is a better product than the Nba.

Duplicate post. This app is completely broken.

basch152
01-07-2016, 10:18 AM
What? Peak Webber stands no chance against KG/Dirk/Garnett/Malone/Barkley first off. Second, Webber never achieved anything and disappointed in the playoffs countless times. His numbers across the board is filled with stat stuffing with relatively zero progression to winning. Find me the best moments of Webber's career.. I'll wait. He's not top five, sorry. During his "peak", he failed at the playoffs big time.

Webber was one of the best big men at ball handling and passing of his time, his footwork and skills were elite, his post game was elite, and was a great, was a good defender, and unlike gasol, wad actually the #1 option for most of his career.

And as the #1 option, he led his team to a conference finals that clearly had an agenda behind it.

His peak was as good as anyones.

Not many PF out there you can say had great handles, elite vision and passing, elite footwork and post game, and had range close to the 3 pt line.

basch152
01-07-2016, 10:32 AM
And if you don't think webber was a game changer -

In 2007 the 22-14 Pistons traded for webber, they proceeded to go 31-15, quite a good improvement for WAY past the prime Webber barely scoring in double digits.

Peime webber was a HUGE game changer.

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 10:38 AM
There isn't a single thing pau does better now or ever.

valade16
01-07-2016, 10:51 AM
A few things regarding the Pau/C-Webb debate:

Chris Webber was very clearly the better passer. He averaged more APG (4.2 career 5.4 high to 3.2 career 4.6 high) and had a higher AST% (20.2 career 24.9 high to 16.3 career 23.7 high).

He was a slightly worse rebounder by % (though he had some seasons of higher RPG that was mainly because he played a lot of minutes such as 98/99 when he averaged 13.0 RPG but on 40.9 MPG).

Defense I could see an argument either way, but Chris Webber was a good defender himself. He had more SPG but less BPG and C-Webb had superior DWS and DBPM (which admittedly doesn't really prove anything).

There are two things that make this a unique comparison. First is that, although C-Webb scored far more on a PPG basis, he did so on drastically worse efficiency. While C-Webb scored 27.1 PPG in one season he did it on a 51.6 TS%. C-Webb's career TS% is 51.3%, Pau's is 56.6%. So although C-Webb eclipsed 23.0 PPG 4 times and Pau only ever eclipsed 20.0 PPG twice, we have to take into account efficiency.

Second, is their roles as a leader. It's been repeated a lot on this thread, but Pau didn't really lead Memphis to success when he was the main option. He later went on to win 2 rings but as a second option to Kobe. C-Webb was almost always the team leader or best player on his teams, and although he didn't lead them to a title, he undeniably had more team success as a #1 option than Pau.

The remarkable thing about C-Webb was how much better teams got when he arrived:

92/93 GSW 34-48 (w/o C-Webb)
93/94 GSW 50-32 (with C-Webb)
94/95 GSW 26-56 (w/o C-Webb)

93/94 Bullets 24-58 (w/o C-Webb)
94/95 Bullets 21-61 (with C-Webb)
95/96 Bullets 39-43 (with C-Webb)
96/97 Bullets 44-38 (with C-Webb)
97/98 Bullets 42-40 (with C-Webb)
98/99 Bullets 18-32 (w/o C-Webb)

97/98 Kings 27-55 (w/o C-Webb)
98/99 Kings 27-23 (with C-Webb)
99/00 Kings 44-38 (with C-Webb)
00/01 Kings 55-27 (with C-Webb)
01/02 Kings 61-21 (with C-Webb)
etc.

It's very hard for me to overlook the fact that everywhere he went in his prime the team got better shortly after he arrived and got worse immediately after he left. That speaks to positive impact and of course C-Webb led a team as a #1 option farther than Gasol did.

Additionally, I think we can more directly compare accolades because they had a some overlap in terms of when they played. Both had 5 All-Star appearances. Pau made 4 All-NBA teams (0 1st team) while C-Webb made 5 All-NBA teams (1 1st team).

Overall, it's very close. I know in today's advanced stats world guys who shoot at a low efficiency are considered essentially worthless so I imagine many will pick Pau, but there's no denying C-Webb was more effective as a #1 option/team leader.

ewing
01-07-2016, 11:10 AM
Webber was one of the best big men at ball handling and passing of his time, his footwork and skills were elite, his post game was elite, and was a great, was a good defender, and unlike gasol, wad actually the #1 option for most of his career.

And as the #1 option, he led his team to a conference finals that clearly had an agenda behind it.

His peak was as good as anyones.

Not many PF out there you can say had great handles, elite vision and passing, elite footwork and post game, and had range close to the 3 pt line.


I know Pau is pretty unique

valade16
01-07-2016, 12:02 PM
Also, for reference, C-Webb shot 36% of his shots from 16-23 ft and shot 41.2% in his career.
Pau 30% of his shots from 10-23 ft (15% at 10-16 and 15% at 16-23) and shot 42% total in his career. They were both very good mid-range shooters for their position.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 02:10 PM
Also, for reference, C-Webb shot 36% of his shots from 16-23 ft and shot 41.2% in his career.
Pau 30% of his shots from 10-23 ft (15% at 10-16 and 15% at 16-23) and shot 42% total in his career. They were both very good mid-range shooters for their position.

Pau beats him at all spots except the post position -- which Webber was an absolute monster at during the paint because he was so gifted athletically and physically. However, Webber isn't the better passer. When you look at the best passing big men, Pau Gasol's name always comes up. Webber might come up but the masses are always going for Pau. Higher APG means nothing.. Really. When you consider that Webber had a much higher USG% and thus, more opportunities to pad his stats. He also played more minutes. The thing that Webber lacks is pretty simple:

1) Lack of playoff success
2) Lack of team success
3) Lack of longevity
4) Lack of winning plays

Sure, we can put his one or two seasons up there with some all-time great PF numbers but we could also put Kevin Love's few seasons there as well. The point is, Pau stepped up when it mattered back when he was with the Lakers. There aren't many times in which Webber has elevated his game to a higher level when the moment comes. Gasol's longevity, playoff success, and better numbers across the board despite playing less minutes/less USG% clearly puts him above Webber.

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 02:30 PM
Apg is meaningless? Ok.

That is nonsense. Pau's playoff experience is the result of other players. Everything you just mentioned is an opinion, and you dismissed facts. His "elevated" play still wasn't as good as Webber's every day performance.

At what point is USG a reason to punish an efficient player? That's just foolish. Btw, Pau's USG in his one successful season as the man is barely less than any one of Webbers seasons in question. He made the playoffs once on his own.

One time. This argument wreaks.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 02:37 PM
That is nonsense. Pau's playoff experience is the result of other players. Everything you just mentioned is an opinion, and you dismissed facts. His "elevated" play still wasn't as good as Webber's every day performance.

I honestly can't believe this is being discussed.

So what are your arguments exactly? Are you disputing that Webber doesn't disappear in the playoffs? Because he has a reputation of doing so. Pau was an incredibly effective option for the Lakers and he took his game to another level. What is being discussed exactly? I haven't heard a legitimate argument from you other than "Pau is not as good as Webber." Well, he does beat him at many things. Webber's numbers are incredibly inflated because of him being a 1st option and also, due to him having that higher USG%. McHale wasn't a 1st option but I'd take him over Webber. I am not sure what you are trying to prove by saying Gasol isn't a 1st option. Really? How many times was Duncan a 1st option lately? He was still one of the best. You actually proved my point: Webber was a 1st option and what did he show for it? Being a 1st option/2nd option means nothing for Pau because his game translates better as a second option player. Webber would be a 2nd option under Kobe.. and you know it.

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 02:43 PM
He doesn't do any single thing better than Webber. That is my argument. There are about 20 players I would place in between them position wise. It's the most random connection I've ever heard of.

Your argument is that stats don't matter. Who cares if Webber faltered in the playoffs. He likely would have won a championship in the scandal season. Do you have Charles Barkley rated ahead of Pau? He did real well in the playoffs. Take away pau's years with the lakers as a second fiddle and who knows. A player who's game translates better as a second option is an inferior player. As far as Webber being a second option to Kobe, it's irrelevant. Pau could not handle being a #1 option, Webber could. This is based on a number of factors, most notably playoff appearances and regular season wins.

I would rank Webber in the top 10 and Pau somewhere in the 20-25 range if I'm being completely honest. In an all time great list I would rank Anthony Davis ahead of him.

ewing
01-07-2016, 02:54 PM
He doesn't do any single thing better than Webber. That is my argument. There are about 20 players I would place in between them position wise. It's the most random connection I've ever heard of.

Your argument is that stats don't matter. Who cares if Webber faltered in the playoffs. He likely would have won a championship in the scandal season. Do you have Charles Barkley rated ahead of Pau? He did real well in the playoffs. Take away pau's years with the lakers as a second fiddle and who knows. A player who's game translates better as a second option is an inferior player. As far as Webber being a second option to Kobe, it's irrelevant. Pau could not handle being a #1 option, Webber could. This is based on a number of factors, most notably playoff appearances and regular season wins.

I would rank Webber in the top 10 and Pau somewhere in the 20-25 range if I'm being completely honest. In an all time great list I would rank Anthony Davis ahead of him.



Those Kings teams were stacked. What did they have like 7 guys who scored double figures? Pau would have been the first option on that team as well and they would have a been damn good just like the Webber kings were.

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 02:55 PM
Pau would have been the first option on the Kings? What on earth would lead you to think that?

I appreciate that you like pau's game better, but nothing suggests it was more effective, and plenty of evidence supports that Webber's was.

ewing
01-07-2016, 02:58 PM
Why do you get involved in arguments?

i'm the OP. Anyway, I'm right. Peja, Bibby, Vlade, Bobby, Hedo,. that team was stacked. they would have won a ton of games with Pau as well as with CWebb.

ewing
01-07-2016, 03:01 PM
Pau would have been the first option on the Kings? What on earth would lead you to think that?

I appreciate that you like pau's game better, but nothing suggests it was more effective, and plenty of evidence supports that Webber's was.

I am saying if they switched places Pau would have been the #1 option on Sac and they would have been damn good. Just like they were with CWebb.

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 03:01 PM
Why do you get involved in arguments?

i'm the OP. Anyway, I'm right. Peja, Bibby, Vlade, Bobby, Hedo,. that team was stacked. they would have won a ton of games with Pau as well as with CWebb.

Anyway no, you're not right. Not even close. Your theory is based on absolutely nothing. Your argument would be laughed at in any real life situation.

Take your willy nilly baseless bs somewhere else dude. I don't have time for it.

ewing
01-07-2016, 03:03 PM
Anyway no, you're not right. Not even close. Your theory is based on absolutely nothing. Your argument would be laughed at in any real life situation.

Take your willy nilly baseless bs somewhere else dude. I don't have time for it.

is this fake life?

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 03:08 PM
It's the Internet, which allows people who would normally cower in fear of a person with a real argument to hide behind a screen.

But that's fine. Please, explain to me how easily it would be for Pau to average 27 PPG in a season. He's never done anything to suggest he could even come close. But it is as simple as replacing a #1 option with a #2, you're right.

With all due respect, you guys should both just save yourself the time and stop. Your opinion of what could have happened, based on some meaningless advanced statistics and a few successful runs with a top 10 player of all time is not a jumping off point for an argument. It's nonsense.

ewing
01-07-2016, 03:12 PM
Pau beats him at all spots except the post position -- which Webber was an absolute monster at during the paint because he was so gifted athletically and physically. However, Webber isn't the better passer. When you look at the best passing big men, Pau Gasol's name always comes up. Webber might come up but the masses are always going for Pau. Higher APG means nothing.. Really. When you consider that Webber had a much higher USG% and thus, more opportunities to pad his stats. He also played more minutes. The thing that Webber lacks is pretty simple:

1) Lack of playoff success
2) Lack of team success
3) Lack of longevity
4) Lack of winning plays

Sure, we can put his one or two seasons up there with some all-time great PF numbers but we could also put Kevin Love's few seasons there as well. The point is, Pau stepped up when it mattered back when he was with the Lakers. There aren't many times in which Webber has elevated his game to a higher level when the moment comes. Gasol's longevity, playoff success, and better numbers across the board despite playing less minutes/less USG% clearly puts him above Webber.


They were both great passers. I think CWebb a usage and his ability to blow by put him in more situations to pick up assists. Cwebb could force help by blowing by someone. Being on a team of great passers that could really shoot also helped him put up assist numbers. Who is the better passer is always a tricky question. I do think C Webb was a better player maker.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 03:13 PM
Pau would have been the first option on the Kings? What on earth would lead you to think that?

When did I say Pau Gasol would have been the first option? Are you even comparing the same teams or are you just making opinionated statements backed with zero substance? If you truly think that Webber led his team to the playoffs, then can you explain why he didn't lead them to anything after that? He disappointed in the playoffs; Gasol didn't. Let's get to the basics first here. Tim Duncan wasn't the first option for the Spurs for quite some time but he was still their best player. Charles Barkley is rated above Gasol despite zero rings because? DING DING DING, Barkley did not disappear in the playoffs and Barkley's longevity destroys more than 90% of the players in NBA history. Playoff doesn't mean anything? Since WHEN? That's when it SHOULD mean something. So let me get this straight, Dwight is a winner because playoff doesn't mean anything. Is that what you're implying? Let's speak facts here:

Webber had a stacked Kings team. He didn't come to a team that was filled with scrubs. Divac, Bibby, and Peja were really good players. Stop portraying it as if he came into the 2003 Cleveland Cavailers and carried them straight into the playoffs. That was not the case and you implying it does shows your lack of knowledge in the Chris Webber department. BTW, find me one playoff season of Webber's that beats Gasol's best playoff season.. I don't care about the regular season in which players can pad their stats all day since you are clearly comparing a player who wasn't a 1st option vs one who was put into that situation. Webber's game translates better as a 1st option than Gasol. Gasol played his role and excelled at it. Webber was the first option and achieved nothing. Who gets the blame here? You choose. So let's get back to Gasol's lack of playoff success with Memphis. The seasons he made it, he went through the Spurs>Suns>Dallas. If you know your history, the Spurs were one of the best teams out there and lost to the Lakers (given), Suns had the best record in the NBA, and Dallas went on to go to the NBA Finals. These aren't lame teams we are talking about. Then name me two players who were on his team without Googling. You probably won't/can't because the simple fact is, Gasol didn't have much to work with. The three seasons he missed the playoffs, are we even being fair here? I'm not trying to excuse Gasol but he did his role. He missed the playoffs his rookie/sophomore seasons and during one of the other season's, he was injured for 22 games. What was his team's record for those 22 games? 5-17.

Again, you're not looking at context here but simply, seeing a black man who had "better" numbers on paper and who was more athletic. Gasol is actually one of the most skilled big man we have ever seen. He can run the floor, handle the ball, post up, hit far range shots, rebound, pass, and his defense isn't worse than Webber to the point where it should be mentioned.
I'm curious to see why you said Webber was "efficient." Nothing of him shows efficiency. In what sense are you using that word in?

Here's my stance on Gasol being over Webber:

-Webber's peak was filled with stat stuffing numbers in which he shot 24 shots per game at one season and it was average for him to shoot 20 of those during his prime years.
-Webber achieved nothing despite you labeling him a true first option. If he was as good of a first option that you make it out to be, why does he disappear in the playoffs?
-Webber's numbers across the board are not better than Gasol's and advanced metrics show it is not even CLOSE.
-Webber's lack of longevity and inept ability to play off the ball doesn't help.
-Gasol has had a better career overall.
-Gasol was instrumental in winning those two rings.
-Gasol elevates his game come playoff time.
-Gasol doesn't need the ball to make an impact. He's played his entire career with below average USG% for top tier PF's and has done well.

I can go on and on. This really isn't a close debate. Gasol is a top 10 PF and the fact that you put him in the 20-25 range of All-Time PF's just shows how uneducated you are on his career. Actually, please name me 20-25 PF's better than Gasol's career.

ewing
01-07-2016, 03:17 PM
It's the Internet, which allows people who would normally cower in fear of a person with a real argument to hide behind a screen.

But that's fine. Please, explain to me how easily it would be for Pau to average 27 PPG in a season. He's never done anything to suggest he could even come close. But it is as simple as replacing a #1 option with a #2, you're right.

With all due respect, you guys should both just save yourself the time and stop. Your opinion of what could have happened, based on some meaningless advanced statistics and a few successful runs with a top 10 player of all time is not a jumping off point for an argument. It's nonsense.


yeah, i'd wet my pants if i was talking about Pau Gasol and C Webb in real life. Anyway, i never said Pau would score 27 a game. I said if you took C Webb off the Kings and put Gasol there he would have been the teams number 1 option and the team would have been damn good. That's true. The only thing that is ridiculous here is your instance that would rank Pau somewhere around 25 as far as PFs go.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 03:22 PM
It's the Internet, which allows people who would normally cower in fear of a person with a real argument to hide behind a screen.

But that's fine. Please, explain to me how easily it would be for Pau to average 27 PPG in a season. He's never done anything to suggest he could even come close. But it is as simple as replacing a #1 option with a #2, you're right.

With all due respect, you guys should both just save yourself the time and stop. Your opinion of what could have happened, based on some meaningless advanced statistics and a few successful runs with a top 10 player of all time is not a jumping off point for an argument. It's nonsense.

You just sound like a child here. Sorry, but that's the truth. No one is cowering in fear of you, PLEASE get serious. But hey, I'll buy into your "arguments" and tell you why it is laughable. Pau isn't and never had to be a 27 PPG player. He's just not that kind of guy. I'll go more into why some guys aren't as well. Look, Pau is a 2nd option player and he played into that role perfectly.. just like McHale did as well. I'm not doubting Webber would be a better 1st option but what does that prove again? That he received more shots (24 shots per game compared to Gasol shooting 15 at his max)? Under those same shot attempts, I hope you do realize that Pau Gasol would be scoring more than 27 PPG. Here's where the funny stuff comes along: Tim Duncan/KG/Dirk are all better PF's than Webber hands down. Tell me which one of them has scored 27 PPG... no one comes close except Dirk -- who played a much different game than Duncan/KG. So your pointless argument of Webber scoring more points than Gasol while ignoring that three all-time top 15 NBA greats have never done so just shows how far you are stretching to find one small argument for Webber. Pau's game isn't built around scoring.. so the only logical reasoning behind your 27 ppg argument is that you think Webber is a better scorer. Guess what? He is. But you know what matters? This is about the better PLAYER and Gasol has been the better player with a better career because of various reasons I mentioned.


They were both great passers. I think CWebb a usage and his ability to blow by put him in more situations to pick up assists. Cwebb could force help by blowing by someone. Being on a team of great passers that could really shoot also helped him put up assist numbers. Who is the better passer is always a tricky question. I do think C Webb was a better player maker.

He had more opportunities to be a playmaker. That much is undeniable. Gasol IMO is a better passer due to his height and he has the reputation for being one of the best at it. Very few would mention Webber. If not for this topic and a thread was made asking for the best big man passers, you can bet Gasol will be mentioned 9/10 times.

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 03:26 PM
Jesus. Pau is not KG, he's not Duncan. He's on a stacked team currently and they're not even that good. You pick out one part of my argument and dig at a technicality because it's all you've got.

Your argument - ignore stats, unless they favor Pau.

My argument - the stats aren't even comparable, what are you even thinking? Because he was on a team that won a championship with a top 10 player and hasn't done jack since, he's a top 10 PF of all time and comparable to someone who posted video game numbers? Give me a break dude. I don't care if you're scared of me, your argument sucks and im done listening to it. Now you're using the law of averages to "confirm" that someone who hasn't come close to scoring 27 ppg would score that or significantly (lol) more just due to having more shot attempts. Why would you argue what could happen against what did? You sound like a child, that's not the way things work.

ewing
01-07-2016, 03:29 PM
Did Pau Gasol do something to you?

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 03:31 PM
Not at all. I thought he got robbed of the finals
MVP and is a fine player. And in that same breathe I kind of want to apologize for getting heated because I don't have a problem with either one of you. But I'm sick of these top 10 lists containing 5 players who are currently active. Players have been good for a while.

This argument is like suggesting a ford is better than a Mercedes because ford won more awards. I mean what the heck? Webber was a flat out star.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 03:41 PM
Jesus. Pau is not KG, he's not Duncan. He's on a stacked team currently and they're not even that good. You pick out one part of my argument and dig at a technicality because it's all you've got.

Your argument - ignore stats, unless they favor Pau.

My argument - the stats aren't even comparable, what are you even thinking? Because he was on a team that won a championship with a top 10 player and hasn't done jack since, he's a top 10 PF of all time and comparable to someone who posted video game numbers? Give me a break dude. I don't care if you're scared of me, your argument sucks and im done listening to it. Now you're using the law of averages to "confirm" that someone who hasn't come close to scoring 27 ppg would score that or significantly (lol) more just due to having more shot attempts. Why would you argue what could happen against what did? You sound like a child, that's not the way things work.

What the hell? When did I say Pau was KG/Duncan? You said Pau couldn't score 27 PPG but I'm replying back saying KG/Duncan never did either. So what is your reply to that?

He's on a stacked team right now... and he's putting up some nice numbers at age 35. Last year, he posted 19/12 on 50% shooting at age 34. What the hell do you want this guy to do? Average 4 points/4 rebounds like Webber did at age 34?

When have I ignored stats? I've given you completely valid reasons as to why Webber's stats are higher. All of which you may find via a simple google search. Webber more points? Because more shots! Webber more APG? Because a higher USG%.. a much higher one at that. You're not looking for the how but rather, the what. That never helps in an argument and it is why you are having a semi-tantrum here trying to dig for more arguments that you won't find.

So let me get this straight, Gasol isn't a top ten PF because he played with Kobe (despite him carrying his own weight), but Webber is a top ten PF because he?? Gasol isn't even a top 20-25 PF in your book. You clearly have an agenda against him. Chris Webber posted video game numbers? Must be a pretty terrible video game considering he never did what you proclaim he did. He hasn't done jack since because he's an old player who is nearing retirement. What are you even babbling about here? What has Webber done since his WCF SAC days? Exactly.

One more go at your 27 PPG argument, you do realize Webber took 23 shots to get 27 points, right? If you don't think the amount of shot attempts is directly related to the output in points, you were taught some fishy math skills. The fundamental behind points is based off shot attempts and how many you convert. Gasol converted at the same percentage but took less shots. Could he average 27 points? Well, let's see.. can he average seven more points with 8 extra shots (let's also include the potential FT shots he can get from attempting those shots). Safe to say he probably will.


BTW: On your previous post before this, you said Gasol got robbed of the Finals MVP.. but you said he basically rode off Kobe for that ring. Which one is it?

YAALREADYKNO
01-07-2016, 03:51 PM
As I've been saying. If you already have an established star on your team and need a 2nd option gasol is the pick. If you're looking to build around one and make them the #1 option it's CWebb all day.

ewing
01-07-2016, 03:53 PM
Not at all. I thought he got robbed of the finals
MVP and is a fine player. And in that same breathe I kind of want to apologize for getting heated because I don't have a problem with either one of you. But I'm sick of these top 10 lists containing 5 players who are currently active. Players have been good for a while.

This argument is like suggesting a ford is better than a Mercedes because ford won more awards. I mean what the heck? Webber was a flat out star.


Well, in this case i saw both guys. I don't talk about guys i haven't seen, so your not going to see pettit or someone like that on my list. I saw both of these guys though and i don't consider Pau a Ford

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 03:55 PM
Jesus. Pau is not KG, he's not Duncan. He's on a stacked team currently and they're not even that good. You pick out one part of my argument and dig at a technicality because it's all you've got.

Your argument - ignore stats, unless they favor Pau.

My argument - the stats aren't even comparable, what are you even thinking? Because he was on a team that won a championship with a top 10 player and hasn't done jack since, he's a top 10 PF of all time and comparable to someone who posted video game numbers? Give me a break dude. I don't care if you're scared of me, your argument sucks and im done listening to it. Now you're using the law of averages to "confirm" that someone who hasn't come close to scoring 27 ppg would score that or significantly (lol) more just due to having more shot attempts. Why would you argue what could happen against what did? You sound like a child, that's not the way things work.

What the hell? When did I say Pau was KG/Duncan? You said Pau couldn't score 27 PPG but I'm replying back saying KG/Duncan never did either. So what is your reply to that?

that Webber is better than Pau at basically everything and the idea that you picked scoring suggests you have no argument

He's on a stacked team right now... and he's putting up some nice numbers at age 35. Last year, he posted 19/12 on 50% shooting at age 34. What the hell do you want this guy to do? Average 4 points/4 rebounds like Webber did at age 34?

who cares about longevity. Seriously, is Robert Parrish the best center of all time? All I want from pau is simple, I want him to continue being a nice story and a good all time talent. His game is not great, you've had several opportunities to suggest other wise and you haven't.

When have I ignored stats? I've given you completely valid reasons as to why Webber's stats are higher. All of which you may find via a simple google search. Webber more points? Because more shots! Webber more APG? Because a higher USG%.. a much higher one at that. You're not looking for the how but rather, the what. That never helps in an argument and it is why you are having a semi-tantrum here trying to dig for more arguments that you won't find.

no I'm not looking at how or why, I'm looking at numbers that are real while you are imagining a scenario in which both players have an equal opportunity. It's not the time nor place.

So let me get this straight, Gasol isn't a top ten PF because he played with Kobe (despite him carrying his own weight), but Webber is a top ten PF because he??

no gasol isn't a top 10 PF because outside of his championships he's contributed very little that 30 other power forwards haven't done befor him.

Gasol isn't even a top 20-25 PF in your book. You clearly have an agenda against him. Chris Webber posted video game numbers? Must be a pretty terrible video game considering he never did what you proclaim he did. He hasn't done jack since because he's an old player who is nearing retirement.

he didn't do Jck when he was younger either. Do you really want to go the agenda route? My best guess is you're not a Webber fan.

What are you even babbling about here? What has Webber done since his WCF SAC days? Exactly.

babbling? I'm not relying on something as weak as post season success for my argument as to why Webber is a good player. Remove it from pau's plate and you have NOTHING. Why don't you open your eyes.

One more go at your 27 PPG argument, you do realize Webber took 23 shots to get 27 points, right? If you don't think the amount of shot attempts is directly related to the output in points, you were taught some fishy math skills. The fundamental behind points is based off shot attempts and how many you convert. Gasol converted at the same percentage but took less shots. Could he average 27 points? Well, let's see.. can he average seven more points with 8 extra shots (let's also include the potential FT shots he can get from attempting those shots). Safe to say he probably will.

again, conceptual nonsense that no one cares about. My math skills are just fine, probability is not relevant in all walks of life.


BTW: On your previous post before this, you said Gasol got robbed of the Finals MVP.. but you said he basically rode off Kobe for that ring. Which one is it?

At which point did I suggest he rode Kobe for a ring? You're using it as the focal point of your argument and it's seriously flawed because of Kobe, but they both played a part.

Give it a rest dude.

MonroeFAN
01-07-2016, 04:06 PM
A mini temper tantrum, lol. Alright.

Clearly frustrated over debating conceptual nonsense with you.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 05:17 PM
At which point did I suggest he rode Kobe for a ring? You're using it as the focal point of your argument and it's seriously flawed because of Kobe, but they both played a part.

Give it a rest dude.

1) I didn't pick scoring... you did. Hence, you mentioned 27 PPG. And no, Webber isn't better at Pau at everything. What the hell is that based off?

2) So Chris Webber is great because? You still haven't answered it because you're too busy looking at Pau. Now you're comparing Parish with NBA greats such as Kareem/Wilt/Hakeem? I never did that. I'm comparing Pau to Webber -- Webber is far from an NBA great. If you don't care about longevity, then we might as well say T-Mac is a top 20 player of all time.

3) He didn't do jack when he was younger because his team was terrible. Again, 5-17 without Pau Gasol was his team. Again, Gasol was a rookie/sophomore who played for a terrible coach and team who's winning % for his career was 27%. What did Webber do again? He did as much as Gasol until Webber had that great team (something you don't acknowledge).

4) So can you name 19-24 better PF's than Pau Gasol and give a reason why?

5) Pau Gasol's and Webber's regular season numbers are practically the same.. what are you babbling about again? That Gasol wasn't a 1st option?

You have no argument here and I'm more than confident anyone reading any of these post(s) is seeing that. You keep saying "my argument" but really, you're just saying it. You haven't proven any of it at all. Someone mentions that the Kings were by far a better roster than what Gasol's Grizzlies were and you don't even bother disputing that. You nitpick what you want and say what you will without substance.

Then you go on with his 27 points garbage but still haven't mentioned why Tim Duncan/KG have never hit 27 PPG. Can you explain the significance behind your 27 PPG argument when we bring in Duncan/KG? Probably not because then it would be increasingly obvious that you are just babbling without purpose.

BTW, here's what you said about Gasol:

"Because he was on a team that won a championship with a top 10 player"

So what does this prove exactly? Why type it and then say he was robbed of the Finals MVP? If you truly believe he was the Finals MVP, that means Pau Gasol played his role and won the championship with his team. For a second option to win the Finals MVP, what has Webber as a first option done?

It's also funny you say "remove Pau's playoff success and he has nothing." I can say the same.. remove Webber's regular season success and he has nothing. So let's just keep removing things because it doesn't fit our amusement, shall we?

BuckWilliams
01-07-2016, 05:54 PM
Leaving the stats out of it because every starter that is pretty good will get stats.

For the new School young guys he's a step below Lamarcus Aldridge. Which would put him about 15th amoung Pf's.

I base that off 75% primes, and 25% longevity. I'm not one of these new school kids that just started studing basketball yesterday that judges a player off 90% longevity and 9% because he played on my cities team, then 1 percent prime and actually how good they played the game.

Chronz
01-07-2016, 06:57 PM
Leaving the stats out of it because every starter that is pretty good will get stats.

For the new School young guys he's a step below Lamarcus Aldridge. Which would put him about 15th amoung Pf's.

I base that off 75% primes, and 25% longevity. I'm not one of these new school kids that just started studing basketball yesterday that judges a player off 90% longevity and 9% because he played on my cities team, then 1 percent prime and actually how good they played the game.

I think the "new school kids" have influenced me because I struggle with this myself. Career Legacy vs Actual Impact is how I view it. Is it better to be an All-Star for 15 years or a superior player for half that?

Paul Pierce vs Tmac is a great example. Pierce's career was going down a forgettable path when he was missing the playoffs and putting up paltry production (relatively speaking) in comparison to a guy who was an All-NBA/MVP candidate annually and putting historic numbers, he may have been losing in R1 but he was putting up one helluva fight on both ends and absolutely raising the play of a bunch of stiffs. But Tmac fizzled out by 30 where Pierce played long enough to finally get the support needed to contend and make deep playoff runs, reinventing his game when necessary. Tmac couldn't do that because his game was somewhat athletic based and he suffered far more debilitating injuries.


Webber vs Pau is similar but I think their peak abilities weren't that far off, Pau's impact is understated, he was the reason Memphis was a playoff team and he turned a .500 team into a contender. What more could you ask of him?

Webber did the same for some of his teams but I think his teams underachieved given their talent. Despite his gaudy scoring totals, he was a prime candidate for the "Ewing Theory" back in the day and everyone agreed he held the Kings back towards the end of stay there. I know with the Lakers, without Pau, they prolly go back to being a .500, at best they are a 48-51 win team or so, whereas the Kings were able to survive without Webber when he succumbed to injury. They were the #1 seed before he came back, now I know they replaced him with Brad Miller and Peja was having an "MVP" caliber season, but they didn't even miss a beat without him. Really shows you how talented they once were. Pau was a far better defender, where Webber loathed playing Center, Pau frequently switched between both big positions depending on whichever frontcourt partner he played with. That kind of versatility allowed the Lakers to always have a twin towers effect defensively and feast on any small ball units. This allowed Odom+Bynum to be maximized. Webber on the Lakers would have ruined Odoms game.

Hawkeye15
01-07-2016, 07:03 PM
Did Pau Gasol do something to you?

I was sitting courtside one game, and his neck beard shed a hair into my drink. Therefore I hate him.

DboneG
01-07-2016, 07:18 PM
Guys...C-Webb was a true POWER FORWARD. Case closed!

C-Webb carried a team, C-Webb carried a franchise! The Sacramento kings! That team/franchise wasn't shyt before he got there.


Sorry, but, Pau Gasol is 7'0"-7'1", wanting to play the role of power forward. But, end up at the top of the key shooting jump shots at the end of the day.


Pau is a good ball player, He has the size, but, he's only effective against smaller players.
He has all the tools you need to be a great player, but, lacks the intensity on defense to be a great player. He seems to get lost when guys are fighting/battling for the rebound. The ball is on the rim, it's late in the game, the crowd is screaming and Pau don't want to stick his nose in there to get the ball. (Like Dennis Rodman/Paul Silas/C-Webb)

There are times Pau will give up position in the paint or get out muscled. Power Forward?! I THINK NOT!
Pau is not good at closing out shooters, he also lack mental toughness.


Chris Bosh = Pau Gasol
Christian Laettner = Pau Gasol
Carlos Booser = Pau Gasol
Boris Diaw = Pau Gasol
Detlef Schremph = Pau Gasol


Get the picture. All these guys played power forward, but, they were soft playing the position. You guys are making a huge mistake when you try to compare Pau Gasol to C-Webb, Dennis Rodman, Kevin McHale, Elvin Hayes or any of those hard nose players. Because Pau is soft.

DboneG
01-07-2016, 07:20 PM
Just think...Chris Bosh and Pau Gasol will both make the HOF......SMH!

BuckWilliams
01-07-2016, 07:29 PM
I think the "new school kids" have influenced me because I struggle with this myself. Career Legacy vs Actual Impact is how I view it. Is it better to be an All-Star for 15 years or a superior player for half that?

Paul Pierce vs Tmac is a great example. Pierce's career was going down a forgettable path when he was missing the playoffs and putting up paltry production (relatively speaking) in comparison to a guy who was an All-NBA/MVP candidate annually and putting historic numbers, he may have been losing in R1 but he was putting up one helluva fight on both ends and absolutely raising the play of a bunch of stiffs. But Tmac fizzled out by 30 where Pierce played long enough to finally get the support needed to contend and make deep playoff runs, reinventing his game when necessary. Tmac couldn't do that because his game was somewhat athletic based and he suffered far more debilitating injuries.


Webber vs Pau is similar but I think their peak abilities weren't that far off, Pau's impact is understated, he was the reason Memphis was a playoff team and he turned a .500 team into a contender. What more could you ask of him?

Webber did the same for some of his teams but I think his teams underachieved given their talent. Despite his gaudy scoring totals, he was a prime candidate for the "Ewing Theory" back in the day and everyone agreed he held the Kings back towards the end of stay there. I know with the Lakers, without Pau, they prolly go back to being a .500, at best they are a 48-51 win team or so, whereas the Kings were able to survive without Webber when he succumbed to injury. They were the #1 seed before he came back, now I know they replaced him with Brad Miller and Peja was having an "MVP" caliber season, but they didn't even miss a beat without him. Really shows you how talented they once were. Pau was a far better defender, where Webber loathed playing Center, Pau frequently switched between both big positions depending on whichever frontcourt partner he played with. That kind of versatility allowed the Lakers to always have a twin towers effect defensively and feast on any small ball units. This allowed Odom+Bynum to be maximized. Webber on the Lakers would have ruined Odoms game.


The best and the only way to judge talent is to look at the player in their prime and say whether or not you'd draft him and you're guaranteed atleast 5 years of that player to build around. This is pretty much how NBA scouts do it. atleast the best ones. The Spurs and Warriors have the best scouts going over the last many years.
They look at a player for what he IS.

I see you're not a fan of Webber and it comes through in your writing. I also see you're a fan of McGrady and you sort of like Pierce.

McGrady and Pierce are just somewhat average SF's in the NBA when looking at it in terms of history. Neither could win a round really as the main Franchise guy. Mcgrady was just shooting a lot and anyone and I mean anyone can get stats if they have the ball the entire game and shoot almost everytime. He really wasn't a good team player.
Pierce just played along time because the league is easier now and he was a jumpshooter his entire career essentially. Playing a long time doesn't say you were necessarily and "BETTER PLAYER". It just means you had a longer NBA career and made a bit more money possibly. But it doesn't say you were nescessarily "BETTER".
Infact to take it a step further. Some of the best players ever may have not even played in the NBA. They may have just been Street ballers, in the 70's or 80's.

So Pau playing till now at like 36 years old just about and averaging 16 and 10 after Phil taught him to rebound. He was always an 8 rebound guy before he got with Phil and learned how to actually rebound, but that is a different story. He's a 16 and 10 guy with 2 blocks because he's 7'1. He's really more of a center honestly now in todays NBA and even in the 90's. PF's back then were too athletic. (Barkley, Kemp, Webber, Garnett, Buck Williiams, Thorpe, etc, etc you may hate some of those players, but Barkley owned the PF position from 88-96, and I think we all like Barkley so just focus on that.) Gasol is really more of a center.

Webber was a real player that could get any team in the NBA to the Playoffs at any time. He was that good. No, he wasn't a great player after the age or say 32, but from 20-31 he was worth the price of admission and he could still be a nice bench player fro mage 33 on. He opted to retire.

The game is not played as physical now in the NBA so it is a little easier for someone like Pau to play until 36 with little drop off. Granted his best seasons were really only like 18 and 11. So there isn't a whole distance to drop off. Also He had a very easy career always being paired with a giant center that is athletic. That helps a career. Because Now 7'1 pau is playing against a 6'9 stretch four instead. Which is easy. Also he had Prime Kobe to create for him. When did Webber have Prime Kobe to create for him?

Webber won in GS, Washington, then Sacramento. All those franchises were troubled when they got him and then he turned them around and got them to the playoffs year after year.

He played enough and had enough longevity to not count off there. He played about 800 prime games and about another 60 prime Playoff games. That's a lot. It's about like Larry Bird lets say in games played give or take some games.

I understand the longevity argument but it only comes into play when the guy just played like 250 prime games and was only there for like 3-4 good seasons. Then you have to take that into account.

Like Grant Hill lets say, He was only great for about 5 years and he wasn't even the player that Webber was. Webber got every single team he was on to the Playoffs and right away. While Grant missed the playoffs several times and was never a marque game in a Conference Finals or anything.

There are other players that maybe were great for like 3-4 years and then injuries or what have you. So maybe they were on pace to be like a top 50 player but because of only about 3 seasons you have to put them way down then.

But to count off because they only played 10 years is pretty absurd.

BuckWilliams
01-07-2016, 07:41 PM
And to put it bluntly. Pau Gasol is Rony Seikley with longevity. Maybe he's a little better than Rony but you get the point I'm making.

Pau was never a Superstar on the level of a Chris Webber. Infact it's not even close, and I'm a big Pau fan and I also didn't like some of the things Webber would sdo. things that looked a little dirty at times But I'm one of the few honest writers on the net.

FlashBolt
01-07-2016, 07:50 PM
The best and the only way to judge talent is to look at the player in their prime and say whether or not you'd draft him and you're guaranteed atleast 5 years of that player to build around. This is pretty much how NBA scouts do it. atleast the best ones. The Spurs and Warriors have the best scouts going over the last many years.
They look at a player for what he IS.

I see you're not a fan of Webber and it comes through in your writing. I also see you're a fan of McGrady and you sort of like Pierce.

McGrady and Pierce are just somewhat average SF's in the NBA when looking at it in terms of history. Neither could win a round really as the main Franchise guy. Mcgrady was just shooting a lot and anyone and I mean anyone can get stats if they have the ball the entire game and shoot almost everytime. He really wasn't a good team player.
Pierce just played along time because the league is easier now and he was a jumpshooter his entire career essentially. Playing a long time doesn't say you were necessarily and "BETTER PLAYER". It just means you had a longer NBA career and made a bit more money possibly. But it doesn't say you were nescessarily "BETTER".
Infact to take it a step further. Some of the best players ever may have not even played in the NBA. They may have just been Street ballers, in the 70's or 80's.

So Pau playing till now at like 36 years old just about and averaging 16 and 10 after Phil taught him to rebound. He was always an 8 rebound guy before he got with Phil and learned how to actually rebound, but that is a different story. He's a 16 and 10 guy with 2 blocks because he's 7'1. He's really more of a center honestly now in todays NBA and even in the 90's. PF's back then were too athletic. (Barkley, Kemp, Webber, Garnett, Buck Williiams, Thorpe, etc, etc you may hate some of those players, but Barkley owned the PF position from 88-96, and I think we all like Barkley so just focus on that.) Gasol is really more of a center.

Webber was a real player that could get any team in the NBA to the Playoffs at any time. He was that good. No, he wasn't a great player after the age or say 32, but from 20-31 he was worth the price of admission and he could still be a nice bench player fro mage 33 on. He opted to retire.

The game is not played as physical now in the NBA so it is a little easier for someone like Pau to play until 36 with little drop off. Granted his best seasons were really only like 18 and 11. So there isn't a whole distance to drop off. Also He had a very easy career always being paired with a giant center that is athletic. That helps a career. Because Now 7'1 pau is playing against a 6'9 stretch four instead. Which is easy. Also he had Prime Kobe to create for him. When did Webber have Prime Kobe to create for him?

Webber won in GS, Washington, then Sacramento. All those franchises were troubled when they got him and then he turned them around and got them to the playoffs year after year.

He played enough and had enough longevity to not count off there. He played about 800 prime games and about another 60 prime Playoff games. That's a lot. It's about like Larry Bird lets say in games played give or take some games.

I understand the longevity argument but it only comes into play when the guy just played like 250 prime games and was only there for like 3-4 good seasons. Then you have to take that into account.

Like Grant Hill lets say, He was only great for about 5 years and he wasn't even the player that Webber was. Webber got every single team he was on to the Playoffs and right away. While Grant missed the playoffs several times and was never a marque game in a Conference Finals or anything.

There are other players that maybe were great for like 3-4 years and then injuries or what have you. So maybe they were on pace to be like a top 50 player but because of only about 3 seasons you have to put them way down then.

But to count off because they only played 10 years is pretty absurd.

So I'm taking it you believe that the Kings roster was absolutely terrible and Webber was just a God there? That's far from the truth. We're not drafting anyone here. Their career is precisely finished and over with. Who had the better career? Pau Gasol is the answer. There is no looking down five years the road. What you're doing is using very different meanings of the word better and I can see why it might be difficult from your view. Well, not really because the questions asked us to RANK. At that point, you have to go by their career and place them accordingly. Nothing Webber has done warrants a place over Gasol. Better individual player doesn't make you a better one. Tracy McGrady to the naked eye would be a much better player than Pierce but Pierce's resume destroys him hands down. Also, Webber didn't take every team to the playoffs and again, stop pretending as if the Kings were a terrible roster. They had one of the best out there at that time. And why are you comparing Bird to Webber? That's not even a fair comparison here. Larry has accolades other than games played to go with his ranking. Rings, MVP's, stats, dominance, the entire package. Webber just has regular season stats. No comparison.

BuckWilliams
01-07-2016, 08:09 PM
So I'm taking it you believe that the Kings roster was absolutely terrible and Webber was just a God there? That's far from the truth. We're not drafting anyone here. Their career is precisely finished and over with. Who had the better career? Pau Gasol is the answer. There is no looking down five years the road. What you're doing is using very different meanings of the word better and I can see why it might be difficult from your view. Well, not really because the questions asked us to RANK. At that point, you have to go by their career and place them accordingly. Nothing Webber has done warrants a place over Gasol. Better individual player doesn't make you a better one. Tracy McGrady to the naked eye would be a much better player than Pierce but Pierce's resume destroys him hands down. Also, Webber didn't take every team to the playoffs and again, stop pretending as if the Kings were a terrible roster. They had one of the best out there at that time. And why are you comparing Bird to Webber? That's not even a fair comparison here. Larry has accolades other than games played to go with his ranking. Rings, MVP's, stats, dominance, the entire package. Webber just has regular season stats. No comparison.


Both in their prime. WHO WINS IN A STREET GAME ONE ON ONE WEBBER OR GASOL?

THAT IS THE ANSWER OF WHO IS BETTER> IM TIRED OF PEOPLE TRYING TO SPIN IT.

IF YOU WANT TO ASK WHO PLAYED LONGER THAN JUST DO THAT.


I MEAN IT'S ALMOST LIKE SOMEONE SAYING KOBE HAD A BETTER "CAREER" THAN JORDAN, Because Jordan retired twice and Jordan didn't make 7 Finals like Kobe and Kobe made more All Star games and played longer at an All Star Level.

That is the EXACT argument these people are telling me.


And about the Kings. No, they were not stacked until after Webber had been there a year or so. Because many free agents like Christie and othersBobby Jackson and others wanted to play in Sacramento all of a sudden?

BuckWilliams
01-07-2016, 08:14 PM
When Webber left the Kings they went from a LEGIT CONTENDER about like the SPURS are now to a team that was just a nice team like the MAVERICKS ARE NOW..

yes both playoff teams, but one is a 1 seed and the other is about a 5 seed. Big difference and that is really what happened to the Kings. They went from a 1 seed to a 5.

valade16
01-07-2016, 08:35 PM
So I'm taking it you believe that the Kings roster was absolutely terrible and Webber was just a God there? That's far from the truth. We're not drafting anyone here. Their career is precisely finished and over with. Who had the better career? Pau Gasol is the answer. There is no looking down five years the road. What you're doing is using very different meanings of the word better and I can see why it might be difficult from your view. Well, not really because the questions asked us to RANK. At that point, you have to go by their career and place them accordingly. Nothing Webber has done warrants a place over Gasol. Better individual player doesn't make you a better one. Tracy McGrady to the naked eye would be a much better player than Pierce but Pierce's resume destroys him hands down. Also, Webber didn't take every team to the playoffs and again, stop pretending as if the Kings were a terrible roster. They had one of the best out there at that time. And why are you comparing Bird to Webber? That's not even a fair comparison here. Larry has accolades other than games played to go with his ranking. Rings, MVP's, stats, dominance, the entire package. Webber just has regular season stats. No comparison.

Doesn't that speak to the absurdity of rankings?

Chronz
01-07-2016, 09:07 PM
I see you're not a fan of Webber and it comes through in your writing. I also see you're a fan of McGrady and you sort of like Pierce.
Just reporting the facts and the popular opinion on Webber as a non-clutch player.


McGrady and Pierce are just somewhat average SF's in the NBA when looking at it in terms of history. Neither could win a round really as the main Franchise guy. Mcgrady was just shooting a lot and anyone and I mean anyone can get stats if they have the ball the entire game and shoot almost everytime. He really wasn't a good team player.
I disagree, dont see what makes them average nor do I buy your theory on statistics. If it was so easy, the numbers he posted wouldn't have been so historic, objectively speaking of course.
You also overrate just how much Tmac had the ball and underrate how difficult it is to produce while being the focal point of the defense, they aren't just going to let you score and its incredibly difficult to post such minuscule turnover rates while carrying the playmaking/scoring burden required from him. I dont see why he wasn't a good team player when he was as unselfish with the ball as he was and how players have admitted to him making them better. This is a sport where the best player in the league could miss the playoffs entirely, much less win a series on his own.


Pierce just played along time because the league is easier now and he was a jumpshooter his entire career essentially. Playing a long time doesn't say you were necessarily and "BETTER PLAYER". It just means you had a longer NBA career and made a bit more money possibly. But it doesn't say you were nescessarily "BETTER".

Infact to take it a step further. Some of the best players ever may have not even played in the NBA. They may have just been Street ballers, in the 70's or 80's.

So Pau playing till now at like 36 years old just about and averaging 16 and 10 after Phil taught him to rebound. He was always an 8 rebound guy before he got with Phil and learned how to actually rebound, but that is a different story. He's a 16 and 10 guy with 2 blocks because he's 7'1. He's really more of a center honestly now in todays NBA and even in the 90's. PF's back then were too athletic. (Barkley, Kemp, Webber, Garnett, Buck Williiams, Thorpe, etc, etc you may hate some of those players, but Barkley owned the PF position from 88-96, and I think we all like Barkley so just focus on that.) Gasol is really more of a center.

That was the beauty of Gasol, he could play both positions. Pau wouldn't struggle against those players anymore than they would struggle with his talent.


Webber was a real player that could get any team in the NBA to the Playoffs at any time. He was that good. No, he wasn't a great player after the age or say 32, but from 20-31 he was worth the price of admission and he could still be a nice bench player fro mage 33 on. He opted to retire.

The game is not played as physical now in the NBA so it is a little easier for someone like Pau to play until 36 with little drop off. Granted his best seasons were really only like 18 and 11. So there isn't a whole distance to drop off. Also He had a very easy career always being paired with a giant center that is athletic. That helps a career. Because Now 7'1 pau is playing against a 6'9 stretch four instead. Which is easy. Also he had Prime Kobe to create for him. When did Webber have Prime Kobe to create for him?

Webber won in GS, Washington, then Sacramento. All those franchises were troubled when they got him and then he turned them around and got them to the playoffs year after year.

He played enough and had enough longevity to not count off there. He played about 800 prime games and about another 60 prime Playoff games. That's a lot. It's about like Larry Bird lets say in games played give or take some games.

I understand the longevity argument but it only comes into play when the guy just played like 250 prime games and was only there for like 3-4 good seasons. Then you have to take that into account.

Like Grant Hill lets say, He was only great for about 5 years and he wasn't even the player that Webber was. Webber got every single team he was on to the Playoffs and right away. While Grant missed the playoffs several times and was never a marque game in a Conference Finals or anything.

There are other players that maybe were great for like 3-4 years and then injuries or what have you. So maybe they were on pace to be like a top 50 player but because of only about 3 seasons you have to put them way down then.

But to count off because they only played 10 years is pretty absurd.
Good points about Pau's supporting bigs over his career but he was still capable of playing the 5 whereas Webber insisted against it.
Webber was great but I think Pau had the best post season run. Webber played in the Princeton offense and that generated alot of open looks for the team so I dont think that Gasol having Kobe should be held against him when he was still more efficient than Webber while playing without Kobe. I think this argument is close at their best, but longevity has to be a huge X-Factor simply because I dont think Webber had that many great seasons.

Chronz
01-07-2016, 09:14 PM
Doesn't that speak to the absurdity of rankings?

I think we need to always be clear about ranking careers vs actual talent/ability.

ewing
01-07-2016, 09:22 PM
Phil taught Pau how to rebound was the line that made me stop reading :shrug:

Chronz
01-07-2016, 09:33 PM
Phil taught Pau how to rebound was the line that made me stop reading :shrug:

He did put him in the pivot alot more and the triangle +Kobe, allowed him to feast on the offensive glass. Hes rebounding more defensively now for some reason but thats usually due to less active support with his help.

valade16
01-07-2016, 10:53 PM
I think we need to always be clear about ranking careers vs actual talent/ability.

Agreed.

ewing
01-07-2016, 11:21 PM
He did put him in the pivot alot more and the triangle +Kobe, allowed him to feast on the offensive glass. Hes rebounding more defensively now for some reason but thats usually due to less active support with his help.

so you mean Phil didn't teach him to rebound. I thought he had some great idea that LB never thought of :shrug:

ewing
01-07-2016, 11:22 PM
I will say that Chris Webber has much better skin that Pau Gasol. What kind of moisturizer does he use? I mean that guy doesn't age.

BuckWilliams
01-07-2016, 11:38 PM
chronz, there have been about 15 SF's that have put up the numbers McGrady put up for that ONE season in Orlando that made his career when he chucked like Iverson and lost more than anyone. Really cut the historic talk.

But I guess you've made up your mind about Pau Gasol and you say he's light years better than C Webb was.
So I guess Webber's 11-0 record vs Pau doesn't mean anything to you. Or his 23, 11, 5.5, 1.5, 1.5 stats mean nothing to you against gasols 17, 11, 3, 0.4, 2 None of this means anything to you because you just simply don't like Webber because he didn't beat the Bulls for your Bullets team back in 97. Then they traded him to Sacramento and you didn't like him after that.

Webber is a Career 21, 10, 4, 1.5, 1.5 player

Same in his playoff prime aswell.

Those number averages are MUCH better than pau gasols.

ewing
01-08-2016, 12:18 AM
chronz, there have been about 15 SF's that have put up the numbers McGrady put up for that ONE season in Orlando that made his career when he chucked like Iverson and lost more than anyone. Really cut the historic talk.

But I guess you've made up your mind about Pau Gasol and you say he's light years better than C Webb was.
So I guess Webber's 11-0 record vs Pau doesn't mean anything to you. Or his 23, 11, 5.5, 1.5, 1.5 stats mean nothing to you against gasols 17, 11, 3, 0.4, 2 None of this means anything to you because you just simply don't like Webber because he didn't beat the Bulls for your Bullets team back in 97. Then they traded him to Sacramento and you didn't like him after that.

Webber is a Career 21, 10, 4, 1.5, 1.5 player

Same in his playoff prime aswell.

Those number averages are MUCH better than pau gasols.

20 and 10 is much better then 18 and 9 now. Sorry its not.

ewing
01-08-2016, 12:18 AM
love your user name though :shugs

ewing
01-08-2016, 12:59 AM
Webber played in the Princeton offense and that generated alot of open looks for the team so I dont think that Gasol having Kobe should be held against him when he was still more efficient than Webber while playing without Kobe. I think this argument is close at their best, but longevity has to be a huge X-Factor simply because I dont think Webber had that many great seasons.[/QUOTE]

I feel like C Webb's explosiveness allowed the the Kings to play that offensive and still have pace. IDK if the kings could have run that offensive as much with Gasol even though he might have been a better decision maker then C Webb and also had great eyes. There has been a lot of talk about the 3 ball getting too valuable do you think that extending the shot clock to 30 seconds would let teams run a different offensive and get more value out of a guy like Gasol in the high post? I do. I think it would make the game more interesting.

Chronz
01-08-2016, 01:18 AM
chronz, there have been about 15 SF's that have put up the numbers McGrady put up for that ONE season in Orlando that made his career when he chucked like Iverson and lost more than anyone. Really cut the historic talk.
Ill trust the statistics over your unsubstantiated opinion, for the record, his team made the playoffs in his best years. Nobody chucked like Iverson buck.


But I guess you've made up your mind about Pau Gasol and you say he's light years better than C Webb was.
So I guess Webber's 11-0 record vs Pau doesn't mean anything to you. Or his 23, 11, 5.5, 1.5, 1.5 stats mean nothing to you against gasols 17, 11, 3, 0.4, 2 None of this means anything to you because you just simply don't like Webber because he didn't beat the Bulls for your Bullets team back in 97. Then they traded him to Sacramento and you didn't like him after that.

Webber is a Career 21, 10, 4, 1.5, 1.5 player

Same in his playoff prime aswell.

Those number averages are MUCH better than pau gasols.

I never said light years better, at their best its a very close call but the edge in longevity prolly matters more here. Career averages arent as important when discussing who was the better player at their best. Both had their best seasons in somewhat shortened years, Webber in 02 and Pau in 10. Both players peaked as a 2-way player these seasons. Webber lost to the Lakers in the WCF, Pau won with the Lakers, and its not as if Webber didn't have the horses behind him. His team started off the season 16-5 without him and their primary lineup with Webber vs with Pollard wasn't much different, those Kings ran a great system that didn't overly rely on Webber so I dont buy the talk that he could've been more efficient in a lesser role. He refused to accept a lesser role until Philly humbled him. Pau put up a 20-11-3.5-2 on HIGH level efficiency and elite defense on a championship winning team. I dont agree that those numbers are "MUCH" better, most of the barometers we have to objectively judge these things favor Gasol. Yes it was the perfect fit, but he turned a fringe playoff team into a contender with his unique skillset+talent. Pau's team relied on him more despite not being the #1 option. People make the mistake that you cant dominate a game without dominating the ball, thats not always the case. Antoine Walker is an example of an alleged All-Star whos teams tend to do better without him because of his playing style. Some guys force a greater role than they should, onto themselves.

Its a really tough call, its that close. Whatever edge Webber has statistically, Pau makes up for it with versatility and elite 2-way efficiency.

Chronz
01-08-2016, 01:30 AM
I feel like C Webb's explosiveness allowed the the Kings to play that offensive and still have pace. IDK if the kings could have run that offensive as much with Gasol even though he might have been a better decision maker then C Webb and also had great eyes. There has been a lot of talk about the 3 ball getting too valuable do you think that extending the shot clock to 30 seconds would let teams run a different offensive and get more value out of a guy like Gasol in the high post? I do. I think it would make the game more interesting.

Young Pau could run back then man, he even led the break sometimes. Pau in that system would have put up career high assists the way just about every skilled bigman did for them. Remember how dominant the Kings were when Brad Miller and all his explosiveness filled in at Webber's spot and despite a declining core overall, the team was thriving. Pau would have made them even better defensively while fitting in offensively. Because of the system in place and the personnel around the PF, Pau's duel efficiency would have benefited the team more than C-Webbs playmaking. They proved it while starting the year without him, and staying as the 1 seed in another season.

Its similar to the situation we have here in LAC, we can survive without Blake because his role is redundant with DJ and we simply run more of a spread attack that generates open 3's for Pierce and company, even Mbah is shooting a career best. Scoring isn't hard to replace when you have guys who can shoulder a greater burden if tasked to do so (for us this is Reddick+CP3). This is something Pau always understood from the start. On a lesser team, I think Webber can will the team to greater heights but he had an elite squad in Sacramento.

MonroeFAN
01-08-2016, 04:57 AM
At which point did I suggest he rode Kobe for a ring? You're using it as the focal point of your argument and it's seriously flawed because of Kobe, but they both played a part.

Give it a rest dude.

1) I didn't pick scoring... you did. Hence, you mentioned 27 PPG. And no, Webber isn't better at Pau at everything. What the hell is that based off?

Sorry, Pau managed to grab slightly more rebounds in a SIGNICANTLY more rebound friendly NBA. He does everything else better. Don't talk to me about shot zones, no one cares.

2) So Chris Webber is great because?

had he not been injured he would have career averages that aren't even in the same ball park as Pau.

You still haven't answered it because you're too busy looking at Pau. Now you're comparing Parish with NBA greats such as Kareem/Wilt/Hakeem? I never did that. I'm comparing Pau to Webber -- Webber is far from an NBA great. If you don't care about longevity, then we might as well say T-Mac is a top 20 player of all time.

you can do that. I used it as a defense against one of your comments, it doesn't mean that's what my argument is centered around. It means I don't care about longevity.

3) He didn't do jack when he was younger because his team was terrible. Again, 5-17 without Pau Gasol was his team. Again, Gasol was a rookie/sophomore who played for a terrible coach and team who's winning % for his career was 27%. What did Webber do again? He did as much as Gasol until Webber had that great team (something you don't acknowledge).

stop suggesting teams are great. He was the catalyst behind that roster, and again you're taking about conceptual bs. It's not a level playing field, we can debate based on what facts we have.

4) So can you name 19-24 better PF's than Pau Gasol and give a reason why?

no that was bs, I cannot. I still take Webber over him though.

5) Pau Gasol's and Webber's regular season numbers are practically the same.. what are you babbling about again? That Gasol wasn't a 1st option?

practically the same? That's not even remotely true, but if you want to go with this even playing card field, had Webber not gotten injured it wouldn't be close.

You have no argument here and I'm more than confident anyone reading any of these post(s) is seeing that. You keep saying "my argument" but really, you're just saying it. You haven't proven any of it at all. Someone mentions that the Kings were by far a better roster than what Gasol's Grizzlies were and you don't even bother disputing that. You nitpick what you want and say what you will without substance.

dude you need to cut this arguing with your opinion business out, no one GAF. You have no idea what would have happened had the two players switched places.

Then you go on with his 27 points garbage but still haven't mentioned why Tim Duncan/KG have never hit 27 PPG. Can you explain the significance behind your 27 PPG argument when we bring in Duncan/KG? Probably not because then it would be increasingly obvious that you are just babbling without purpose.

because it's one part of my argument, it's not the only thing he did better, and it's an important stand alone fact that places Webber higher on my list. It doesn't mean I have one general rule for scorers being elite. I already addressed that. You are zeroing in on it for reasons I don't know, it's a minuscule part of what made Webber a good player.

BTW, here's what you said about Gasol:

"Because he was on a team that won a championship with a top 10 player"

So what does this prove exactly? Why type it and then say he was robbed of the Finals MVP? If you truly believe he was the Finals MVP, that means Pau Gasol played his role and won the championship with his team. For a second option to win the Finals MVP, what has Webber as a first option done?

um? Not have Kobe?

It's also funny you say "remove Pau's playoff success and he has nothing." I can say the same.. remove Webber's regular season success and he has nothing. So let's just keep removing things because it doesn't fit our amusement, shall we?


Let's remove everything from everyone and stop talking to each other because I don't care what reasons you have for proving that pau's career numbers which aren't better than Webbers are some how better.

If rip Hamilton played on those bull teams instead of Jordan he would be a top 10 player of all time. He had comparable FG%, apply the line of averages and he could easily score 30 PPG if he wanted to. Right? Webber was a guy you had to game plan around, Pau is a complimentary player who couldn't crack it alone. If a #2 option is in your top 10 list, fine. That is a fact, being a #2. His ability to perform like a #1 in the right situation is not.

MonroeFAN
01-08-2016, 07:10 AM
Also, in what universe is suggesting someone is a top 25 PF of all time an insult?

Maybe that's a bit of a stretch, but I don't value Pau higher than Webber. Instead of accepting that you've thrown a tantrum because you're not getting your way. Your argument could be applied to anything.

I like star power, Pau does/has not always shown that. This isn't as simple as saying if pau's situation were different so would his legacy. Pau's best years don't compare, Webber dealt with injuries. You could use either one of those facts to debate the argument either way.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 01:16 PM
chronz it's not close though in their primes. It's really not. Gasol could've been had at any point in his career for a few second round picks. Then at age 33 was signed by the Bulls for basically the league minimum. I thought you said he's a superstar in his late years. Why did know one go after him in Free Agency a few years ago? Also I realize that he made the All Star game as a starter in the EAST last season. That tells me nothing. You're probably looking at things like that and take them out of context by not realizing how bad all the centers in the NBA were last season especially in the East.

I go with the better player in a comparison unless one played 3 years and the other 15 years. That is the only way that longevity in my book would surpass a better player.

But you're admitting that it's CLOSE. So you're saying that Webber was better in his prime for 8-9 years more so than Gasol's athletic prime. Just play along, because you're real stuborn and change your story all the time. So you're saying Webber was better by maybe 10% and that it's close.

So you think the Longevity is what far matters more then because you are saying that Gasol is better overall because of his playing to age 35-36 now at a pretty good level.

While I'll mention that I believe Webber did average 20 points per game or very close to it at age 33.

So you're saying that 2-3 more years at a B rate passes 10 A+ Years.


Also look at it this way.

Rate Gasol in the year 1997 amoung PF's and Centers, Just you're average prime Gasol of 18, 10, 3, and 2 blocks with zero intimidation. Doesn't really do a lot off the boxscore to tell you the truth. I don't like to admit that because I am a big Pau Fan. But Webber made players around him drastically better and added a toughness and rugged nature and tone to the game. It was easy for him. Plus Webber was faster, quicker, jumped higher, stronger, and a better play maker, in half court or open court. Webber was also a better defender overall.


Lets rank Pau in 1997 which would be an average Prime season for Webber.

Without looking at all the stats, because I don't have time and also they aren't the end all be all. I remember watching all the players and remember the 97 season well. It was one of the better seasons.

Shaq
Hakeem
Malone
Ewing
Kemp, yes Kemp went way beyond the numbers and adds athleticism to a team which is hard to duplicate.
Webber
Robinson, he was injured and they held him out the final 15 games to get the 1 pick
Barkley
Duncan maybe even in the NCAA where the Spurs were taking
Rodman, the best rebounder and a very active rebounder that could patrol the lane if you know what I mean
Mourning, a dominant defensive shotblocker and scorer in the lane.
Vin Baker, 21 and 10 with 2 blocks. No Gasol was never the player Vin Baker was in his prime either.
Mutombo, now we might finally be getting into Gasol territory, Mutombo is one of the best Defenders ever
Tom Gugliotta had a few great seasons even better than any season Gasol EVER had. 21, 9, 4, 1.3, 1
Pau Gasol, at 18, 10, 3, 2blocks
McDyess
Coleman
Laettner
Kevin Garnett as a young player about 19 years old.



I'm going to usually always pick the better "athlete" unless it's, Reggie Miller, Steph Curry.... sense a theme there.

The Dirk Nowitzki vs Kevin Garnett debate is probably the closest I've seen. One is a super athlete, but a bit of a head case at times, maybe not the best locker room guy, The other is a pretty good athlete, but was a great team guy that never caused any problems and has the MVP and FINALS MVP. Also averaged 27 a game a few times, so the Scoring Power is there, then add the fact that he's like 8th all time in Scoring and he has a slightly better longevity.

Add ALL that up and Dirk might just might have been the better overall player. But I usually just automatically go with the more athletic. Because it's so easy to win with athletes. That's what the game of basketball is truly about. It's an Athletic competition. Some kids today forget that and just want to stop at the three point line and chuck threes and not really play the game at a high level.
But if you want to say KG was better then I'm fine. afterall he was a 23, 13, 5 player in his prime with really good defense
I grew up in Dallas watching Dirk every game. So all that combined and I barely put Dirk over KG. But you could say it's a tie.

Webber and Gasol. No, dude I'm sorry, it's not even close. You saw where Prime Gasol ranks in Webbers Era. Gasol would make maybe 1-2 All Star games in his entire career had he been drafted in 93. That's is the truth. There is no bias in my judgment. I'm fair all the way.

You had to be dominant to make All Star games from 94-04.


Lets say Gasol was in the West from 94-04. He'd be beaten out by more dominant PF's each year like

Barkley, Malone, Kemp, Duncan, KG, Dirk, Webber, It wasn't until Barkley, Malone, Kemp, and Webber all retired that Gasol was able to make some All star games.

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 01:34 PM
Both in their prime. WHO WINS IN A STREET GAME ONE ON ONE WEBBER OR GASOL?

THAT IS THE ANSWER OF WHO IS BETTER> IM TIRED OF PEOPLE TRYING TO SPIN IT.

IF YOU WANT TO ASK WHO PLAYED LONGER THAN JUST DO THAT.


I MEAN IT'S ALMOST LIKE SOMEONE SAYING KOBE HAD A BETTER "CAREER" THAN JORDAN, Because Jordan retired twice and Jordan didn't make 7 Finals like Kobe and Kobe made more All Star games and played longer at an All Star Level.

That is the EXACT argument these people are telling me.


And about the Kings. No, they were not stacked until after Webber had been there a year or so. Because many free agents like Christie and othersBobby Jackson and others wanted to play in Sacramento all of a sudden?

They were already filled with talent when Webber got there.. What are you looking at? The simple fact is, Webber had a legitimate team that was filled with more talent than Pau ever had during his Memphis days.

So you're talking about who wins in a street game now? Dude, read the damn title: Where do you rank Pau Gasol. Maybe you were banned before or are new to this site but a ranking is known as a career achievement stature rather than "who is the better player." If that were the case, Pau Gasol has no place being in the top ten. So how about you stop trying to make it seem as if it is a "who is the better player in a street game" into the actual question of who had the better career. And why are you comparing Kobe to Jordan again? No one is MAKING that assumption but you. Kobe's peak wasn't close to Jordan, he doesn't have 6 FMVP's, 5 MVP's, and other countless accolades for Kobe to surpass strictly through longevity. Pau vs Webber is close to the point where I have to include longevity in the discussion as well as Pau's accolades. Some comparisons just don't require it..

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 01:44 PM
Let's remove everything from everyone and stop talking to each other because I don't care what reasons you have for proving that pau's career numbers which aren't better than Webbers are some how better.

If rip Hamilton played on those bull teams instead of Jordan he would be a top 10 player of all time. He had comparable FG%, apply the line of averages and he could easily score 30 PPG if he wanted to. Right? Webber was a guy you had to game plan around, Pau is a complimentary player who couldn't crack it alone. If a #2 option is in your top 10 list, fine. That is a fact, being a #2. His ability to perform like a #1 in the right situation is not.

1) More rebound friendly? LOL, rebounding averages are lower than when it was Webber's time. Stick with facts and not what garbage info that you came up with. Playing closer to the basket = more rebounds, buddy!

2) You still didn't answer how Chris Webber is great. How is he top ten. Where is your case?

3) You don't care about longevity because it doesn't support your agenda. Just admit it.

4) So you finally acknowledge that you can't name 19-24 better PF's than Gasol.. Wonder why you said that initially then. Clear hater?

5) "Had Webber not gotten injured." Okay... Sorry Yao, Bird, Petro, Grant, Penny, T-Mac.. if you guys were never injured, you all would have been better players. And they ARE the same. Pau's career averages are right there with Webber. Peak wise, you aren't seeing a huge dropoff in raw numbers and because of Webber's inefficiency/MPG, his PER is significantly low compared to Pau's.

6) "I have no idea what happens if you switched their roles." But you apparently do by claiming Pau wouldn't be able to do so? Haha...

7) Buddy, you said Pau Gasol can't average 27 PPG... I replied back by saying Tim Duncan/KG never averaged 27 PPG. So what does your 27 PPG prove? That Webber was a better scorer than Duncan/KG? What exactly are you trying to say there? Might want to clarify that before I call you out on your failed argument only for you to backtrack on your own words.

You apparently aren't getting the message here. This isn't about who the better player at their peak was nor is it who was the 1st option. It is WHO HAD THE BETTER CAREER. Pau Gasol as a 1st option was no scrub and it was him who carried that dreadful Grizzlies team to the playoffs. But his style of gameplay is much more suited as a 2nd option and it is why you saw him win championships. Webber was a more capable 1st option because for the SAC days but if you were to put him behind Kobe, he would be a 2nd option and he wouldn't be able to mesh as well as Pau did because Webber was not someone who could play off the ball for stringent periods of the game.

Are you insinuating that Webber>Pau because Webber was a first option? By your logic, Love>McHale because McHale was a 2nd option while Love was a 1st option for much of his career.

When is calling a player a top 25 PF an insult? When that player is much higher than that. That's like saying Michael Jordan is a top 25 SG. That's not an insult? He's the GREATEST SG and arguably the greatest player ever.

I'm actually done with this discussion. I feel you haven't even understood these two and their careers and will continue replying with empty posts with zero legitimate arguments for their case.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 01:46 PM
They were already filled with talent when Webber got there.. What are you looking at? The simple fact is, Webber had a legitimate team that was filled with more talent than Pau ever had during his Memphis days.

So you're talking about who wins in a street game now? Dude, read the damn title: Where do you rank Pau Gasol. Maybe you were banned before or are new to this site but a ranking is known as a career achievement stature rather than "who is the better player." If that were the case, Pau Gasol has no place being in the top ten. So how about you stop trying to make it seem as if it is a "who is the better player in a street game" into the actual question of who had the better career. And why are you comparing Kobe to Jordan again? No one is MAKING that assumption but you. Kobe's peak wasn't close to Jordan, he doesn't have 6 FMVP's, 5 MVP's, and other countless accolades for Kobe to surpass strictly through longevity. Pau vs Webber is close to the point where I have to include longevity in the discussion as well as Pau's accolades. Some comparisons just don't require it..

prove it. Don't just throw out stupid opinions of each players teams. Memphis had some decent players.

When Webber got to Sacramento he had one established good NBA player, and then a bunch of rookies. Rookie PG that shot 38%. young SF next to him that wasn't a three point shooter.

Peja was a rookie but didnt' play much.

Pollard was their back up center.

They only went 9 players deep.

When you say rank players I think about who is better in their primes.

When I say rank the players today in the NBA you don't use stats from 10 years ago to put Tim Duncan as the best player do you?


Webber was a much more dominant player.

No he didn't get to play on a team with

Bynum
Webber
Artest
Kobe
Fisher
----------
Odom

Coached by Phil Jackson

So no, you're right, he didn't get to play on the best team in the NBA from 07-11 and with the best player in the League from 07-11 and the best coach in league history.

So I guess you're right then. Webber sucked because he didn't force a trade to the Lakers so he could've teamed with Shaq, Kobe and Phil to win several NBA Championships.

Instead he was trying to win with a euro team each season

valade16
01-08-2016, 01:54 PM
To those that dismiss his Sacto teams because of how talented they were, how do you reconcile him improving both GS and Washington when he got there and them getting worse when he left?

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 01:56 PM
prove it. Don't just throw out stupid opinions of each players teams. Memphis had some decent players.

When Webber got to Sacramento he had one established good NBA player, and then a bunch of rookies. Rookie PG that shot 38%. young SF next to him that wasn't a three point shooter.

Peja was a rookie but didnt' play much.

Pollard was their back up center.

They only went 9 players deep.

When you say rank players I think about who is better in their primes.

When I say rank the players today in the NBA you don't use stats from 10 years ago to put Tim Duncan as the best player do you?


Webber was a much more dominant player.

No he didn't get to play on a team with

Bynum
Webber
Artest
Kobe
Fisher
----------
Odom

Coached by Phil Jackson

So no, you're right, he didn't get to play on the best team in the NBA from 07-11 and with the best player in the League from 07-11 and the best coach in league history.

So I guess you're right then. Webber sucked because he didn't force a trade to the Lakers so he could've teamed with Shaq, Kobe and Phil to win several NBA Championships.

Instead he was trying to win with a euro team each season as the only black on the team.

1) Webber had Peja, Divac, and Williams during his first year. All talented NBA players. Maybe you should check the dictionary for the meaning of TALENT. It wasn't as if he came to a team with complete scrubs and no future.

2) "Rank players today." Really? You are telling me to rank a player today while this thread is already known as an all-time ranking. Everyone is going off all-time but you and that seems to be your issue. So KD by your definition is a top ten all-time player and so is Curry. Yup, let's just throw away everything other players have accomplished because their one season wasn't better than KD's/Curry.

3) Bynum? Haha, he was far from being developed when they won those rings.
Webber? Well, gee... Webber never played on the same team as Webber? Mindblown.
Artest/Kobe/Odom are all legitimate players and I have nothing to say about any of those guys.
But Fisher? Sorry, you're just reaching right now. Pau Gasol held his own weight and put up big time numbers regardless of what you believed to have happened.

Kobe wasn't the best player from 07-11. And it's funny you keep naming all these things but let's change it to Jordan instead who played with:

The greatest rebounder ever.
The best team ever.
The best coach ever.
The best wing defender ever.

By your silly argument, Jordan isn't as great as he was because of those things above. Let's completely void what Jordan had accomplished.

Webber didn't want to be traded to the Kings because they were a losing team. What are you talking about? It's funny you keep bringing these irrelevant info about their race to being an EURO style team now because they were all white? What the hell is this?

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 02:03 PM
To those that dismiss his Sacto teams because of how talented they were, how do you reconcile him improving both GS and Washington when he got there and them getting worse when he left?

No one is dismissing anything but those SAC teams weren't scrubs. I hope you really know what happened during his first year for the GSW. Mullin was injured the year before missing a ton of games, Tim missed many games, and it was pretty much Sprewell holding the team down. The year after, you had a much more healthier roster.

As for the Bullets, please look at the amount of talent that team had. If playing with his pal Howard wasn't enough, there were five players other than Webber averaging double digits in points. This wasn't a team that was filled with nobodies. StricL was one of the best out there at the time and you are forgetting that the year Webber came there, they had a worse record than the year before. So it doesn't prove much at all.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 02:10 PM
To those that dismiss his Sacto teams because of how talented they were, how do you reconcile him improving both GS and Washington when he got there and them getting worse when he left?

they don't look at those facts, also they over rate the Kings roster. They were terrible when he got there. He made them better. When the Kings didn't have Webber they were an easy team to beat.

The truth is Webber was the better player for 10 years and also had the better career achievements.

He has the better Career stats over Pau and also should've went to 7 All Star games maybe even 8. Only a hater would say he didn't deserve an all star game at 22, 10, 4, 2, 2 on 50%

Then the next season after that there was no All Star game but had there been he would've made it in 99. at 20, 13, 4, 1, 2 on 50%

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 02:21 PM
No one is dismissing anything but those SAC teams weren't scrubs. I hope you really know what happened during his first year for the GSW. Mullin was injured the year before missing a ton of games, Tim missed many games, and it was pretty much Sprewell holding the team down. The year after, you had a much more healthier roster.

As for the Bullets, please look at the amount of talent that team had. If playing with his pal Howard wasn't enough, there were five players other than Webber averaging double digits in points. This wasn't a team that was filled with nobodies. StricL was one of the best out there at the time and you are forgetting that the year Webber came there, they had a worse record than the year before. So it doesn't prove much at all.

Pau played on the same team as
Kobe
All Star Bynum
Odom
DPOY Artest
Played for Phil Jackson
Mike Miller
Shane Battier
Jason Williams
Stromile Swift was actually a good player, I know many certain kind of people don't like him
Posey was pretty good, It was mainly defenders he was surrounded by.

Then Jimmy Butler
Noah, Gibson etc


It's not even the point. Everyone knows he played with Kobe, Bynum, Artest and on a Phil Jackson coached team.

I don't really care who they played with, The facts are that Webber made 7 All Star games and has the much higher Career Averages.

20/10/4/1.5/1.5

Gasol is not on that level for his career.

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 02:22 PM
they don't look at those facts, also they over rate the Kings roster. They were terrible when he got there. He made them better. When the Kings didn't have Webber they were an easy team to beat.

The truth is Webber was the better player for 10 years and also had the better career achievements.

He has the better Career stats over Pau and also should've went to 7 All Star games maybe even 8. Only a hater would say he didn't deserve an all star game at 22, 10, 4, 2, 2 on 50%

Then the next season after that there was no All Star game but had there been he would've made it in 99. at 20, 13, 4, 1, 2 on 50%

He made them better but so did Peja (who was the best shooter at that time), Divac, Williams, and then Bibby as well. So who did Gasol play with again? He had frickin Mike Miller and Shane Battier? Are you even being fair in your comparisons here?

Better career achievements? So does All-Star games > championships now?

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 02:24 PM
Flashbolt.

Who was better in their prime? Webber or Gasol? I realize now that people like to turn this into a "who played longer and won more rings" contest. I get that.

but I just want to know where you stand on who was better in their Prime?

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 02:26 PM
So who did Gasol play with again? He had frickin Mike Miller and Shane Battier

You are blatantly lying with this quote.

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 02:32 PM
Flashbolt.

Who was better in their prime? Webber or Gasol? I realize now that people like to turn this into a "who played longer and won more rings" contest. I get that.

but I just want to know where you stand on who was better in their Prime?

I already said Webber but I don't think it was a huge difference to the point where it elevates him above Gasol's career achievements. Would I take Webber over Gasol if I needed a PF? Depending on the circumstance (if I had a crappy team, I'd take Webber. If I had a 1st/2nd option and needed a PF who plays his role perfectly as a third option, I'd take Gasol). No one is somehow paying attention to how Webber took 23 shots per game. People call Westbrook a ballhogger but he never took 23 shots per game. Gasol averaged 14-15 shots during his prime years. Webber played more minutes and had a higher USG% rate. I'd still take Webber as a better player but you have to consider the opportunities he had as well to become a better player.

As an example, I'm looking at Russell and all the hate he gets but does anyone realize that he's the third option in a rotation of guards and is expected to become the ROTY? It's just not fair for the guy to produce stellar results when he's given few opportunities to do so.

Also, this wasn't about who played longer and won more rings contest. I believe both players are really close in terms of everything else to the point where Gasol's longevity and rings have got to put him above Webber. Webber has nothing on Gasol other than his better prime years -- none of which equated to anything much despite SAC being one of the favorites to win a ring during those years.

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 02:33 PM
You are blatantly lying with this quote.

Prove me wrong.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 02:44 PM
He played on the same team with Kobe Frickin Bryant. Also played with the GOAT coach after he was already considerender the GOAT coach. Also Bynum was a very big good center that played at an All Star level in the West and athletic.
Also Odom was a good player, Artest was probably a top 5 SF in the NBA aswell. Fisher is one of the most clutch pg's in NBA history.

Had Webber played on that team that would be unfair and David Stern would've had to step in.

Bynum at 15 and 7
Webber
Artest
Bryant
Fisher

coached by the Goat.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 02:49 PM
Also it really isn't close.

Webber super athlete
ENFORCER and TONE SETTER.
21ppg
10 rebounds
4.5 assist
2blocks
2steals
50%

Webber was better at every age respectively. 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, the list goes on, and then ALL OF A A SUDDEN age age 33 Gasol finally becomes the better player.

Webber had 10 better seasons than Gasol.
Gasol might have 5.

It's not even close.

Webber is 30% better when you factor in the stats, his strength, the ability to be an enforcer and his super athleticism.

Webber averged 17, 9.5, 9.5 his rookie playoffs. Nelson said coined him the first 'point center"

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 02:53 PM
He played on the same team with Kobe Frickin Bryant. Also played with the GOAT coach after he was already considerender the GOAT coach. Also Bynum was a very big good center that played at an All Star level in the West and athletic.
Also Odom was a good player, Artest was probably a top 5 SF in the NBA aswell. Fisher is one of the most clutch pg's in NBA history.

Had Webber played on that team that would be unfair and David Stern would've had to step in.

Bynum at 15 and 7
Webber
Artest
Bryant
Fisher

coached by the Goat.

I was talking about his Memphis days. Webber certainly had a better roster during those times. Gasol never really had a team until he went to the Lakers. Webber would not have taken that Memphis team anywhere close to the WCF. Fisher was one of the most clutch PG's in NBA history... stop it. Your attempts of making a player seem way better than they were is worthy of a chuckle. Bynum wasn't worth much during their championship seasons. By the time he blossomed, Lakers were going downhill due to teams just getting better.

You can't just pair players up and then not expect their role to change. Webber would have had a much more difficult time transitioning into the second option role under Kobe than Gasol ever had. Gasol was a perfect pairing for Kobe. BTW, you do realize that they went to the NBA Finals 3x in a row, right? So it's not as if Gasol underachieved at all. Plus, you keep mentioning Ron Artest.. dude, you do realize that the guy was far from a top 5 SF and not even 10% of his Pacers days, right? Stop imagining things.

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 02:58 PM
Also it really isn't close.

Webber super athlete
ENFORCER and TONE SETTER.
21ppg
10 rebounds
4.5 assist
2blocks
2steals
50%

Webber was better at every age respectively. 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, the list goes on, and then ALL OF A A SUDDEN age age 33 Gasol finally becomes the better player.

Webber had 10 better seasons than Gasol.
Gasol might have 5.

It's not even close.

Webber is 30% better when you factor in the stats, his strength, the ability to be an enforcer and his super athleticism.

Webber averged 17, 9.5, 9.5 his rookie playoffs. Nelson said coined him the first 'point center"

So maybe you didn't get the message but his advanced numbers blow, his stats are clearly going to be higher during his prime due to an insane amount of shots/USG advantage, and the fact that Gasol is still a serviceable player and has been for many years despite being aged 35. You never mention Webber's crappy playoff journeys and his injury prone self that severely hurt his career.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 03:10 PM
I'm not so sure about that. Webber was a real deal. He was a legit SuperStar in the NBA and players wanted to join his team in Washington and Sacramento. He made Peja good. He also made Divac a little better. He made Bibby and Christie house hold names.

Divac
Gasol
Peja
Christie
Bibby aren't taking Shaq and Kobe to the brink in game 7 and beating the stacked Mavericks with Dirk, Nash, and Finley coached by the all time winningest coach Don Nelson.

First of all Peja wouldn't have been as good with Gasol. because Peja needs a strong lost post player to get open. He needs someone that can draw double teams all the way down to the low block area. Webber was that guy. Also Webber was a better passer than Gasol. Also Webber's athleticism allowed Adelman to play the fast break game. Webber would often lead the break and he was fast.

They would've been a nice 2nd round team.

Webber would've brought in more players to Memphis also they probably wouldn't had been able to keep him. Many teams wanted Webber.

Webber was a legit SuperStar for about 7 seasons honestly. I know some look at the games played and take off, but one of those seasons was a 50 game season so when it says 42 games that's really more like 70 games in an 82 game season. 70 games is fine by me. Some times they'd rest him like Duncan is rested. Webber got in a lot of fights also because he needed to bring a toughness to his team.

Webber in his prime gets to the WCF in the late 00's from 05-07 with the Grizzles. I'd bet that. The West was dropping off a bit around 04. Lakers were no longer really, Mavs broke up two MVP's and also lost Finley, Kings wouldn't be any good without Webber.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 03:17 PM
So maybe you didn't get the message but his advanced numbers blow, his stats are clearly going to be higher during his prime due to an insane amount of shots/USG advantage, and the fact that Gasol is still a serviceable player and has been for many years despite being aged 35. You never mention Webber's crappy playoff journeys and his injury prone self that severely hurt his career.

Anyone can be a serviceable player at age 35.

Webbers playoff numbers are really good if you dont' count his last season of 16 games in the playoffs after his major injury that skew the numbers a great deal.

Just count his prime years and his playoff stats are more like 20, 9, 4, 1.5, 1.5 and about 47%. Also he played in a much better league having to play against. Jordan, Pippen, Rodman, Shaq, Barkley, KJ, Kobe, Dirk, Garnett, Nash, Duncan

While Gasol only went against Amare, Duncan somewhat past his prime, Dirk, Nash, that's about it. And he was a the second best player on his team most every season.

Webber was always the best player on his team and everyone knew it.

This is silly

One was a B player the other is an A.

valade16
01-08-2016, 03:27 PM
I was talking about his Memphis days. Webber certainly had a better roster during those times. Gasol never really had a team until he went to the Lakers. Webber would not have taken that Memphis team anywhere close to the WCF. Fisher was one of the most clutch PG's in NBA history... stop it. Your attempts of making a player seem way better than they were is worthy of a chuckle. Bynum wasn't worth much during their championship seasons. By the time he blossomed, Lakers were going downhill due to teams just getting better.

You can't just pair players up and then not expect their role to change. Webber would have had a much more difficult time transitioning into the second option role under Kobe than Gasol ever had. Gasol was a perfect pairing for Kobe. BTW, you do realize that they went to the NBA Finals 3x in a row, right? So it's not as if Gasol underachieved at all. Plus, you keep mentioning Ron Artest.. dude, you do realize that the guy was far from a top 5 SF and not even 10% of his Pacers days, right? Stop imagining things.

The Griz had 7 players average 9.4 PPG or higher. That team had Bonzi Wells, Mike Miller, Jason Williams, and Shane Battier.

Are those all-timers? No. Are they quality NBA players (who were at their primes)? Absolutely. Bonzi was on a WCF Blazers team, Miller and Battier have been on several Championship teams, and Jason Williams was on C-Webb's Kings.

He had talent in Memphis, He just didn't get it done. Consider in 2004-2005 the Grizzlies finished behind the Denver Nuggets in the playoff seedings. That year Melo had Kenyon Martin, Andre Miller and Marcus Camby. Pau's supporting cast wasn't much worse than that (if at all) and he finished behind Melo.

Also consider when Webber arrived in Sacto the only players on the WCF Kings team were Vlade and a rookie Peja. Webber made Sacto a winner before Bibby, before Christie, before Turk, before Bobby Jackson, before Scott Pollard and before Peja became Peja.

I also want to point out that C-Webb turned both GS and Washington into winners when he got there and they went back to being losers as soon as he left.

I agree that it's a very close comparison, but we can't discount that Webber had just as much of an impact on bad teams as Gasol did and then when he got a good team did pretty well as a 1st option. Obviously Pau has the rings (and did very well to get them, he wasn't "along for the ride").

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 03:34 PM
The Griz had 7 players average 9.4 PPG or higher. That team had Bonzi Wells, Mike Miller, Jason Williams, and Shane Battier.

Are those all-timers? No. Are they quality NBA players (who were at their primes)? Absolutely. Bonzi was on a WCF Blazers team, Miller and Battier have been on several Championship teams, and Jason Williams was on C-Webb's Kings.

He had talent in Memphis, He just didn't get it done. Consider in 2004-2005 the Grizzlies finished behind the Denver Nuggets in the playoff seedings. That year Melo had Kenyon Martin, Andre Miller and Marcus Camby. Pau's supporting cast wasn't much worse than that (if at all) and he finished behind Melo.

Also consider when Webber arrived in Sacto the only players on the WCF Kings team were Vlade and a rookie Peja. Webber made Sacto a winner before Bibby, before Christie, before Turk, before Bobby Jackson, before Scott Pollard and before Peja became Peja.

I also want to point out that C-Webb turned both GS and Washington into winners when he got there and they went back to being losers as soon as he left.

I agree that it's a very close comparison, but we can't discount that Webber had just as much of an impact on bad teams as Gasol did and then when he got a good team did pretty well as a 1st option. Obviously Pau has the rings (and did very well to get them, he wasn't "along for the ride").

Great post, how do you thumbs up a post on this site? It's really not close though. Gasol played in a different NBA. no prime Duncan, Garnett, Dirk was ever past his prime really when he got to the Lakers, No more
Shaq, no more Webber to go against. No Malone no more Kobe because he played on his team.

So no, Gasol didn't just ride Kobe to a title, but that was a stacked team even better than anything Webber ever had. but I don't see that Gasol Bryant team coming even close to the Shaq Kobe team and taking them to the final shot in game 7. Gasol and Kobe would be swept by Shaq and Kobe.

We really have to keep things in context. the NBA and even the West was down from 05-about 12 or 13 when the Spurs rebuilt and the Warriors finally gave us a dominant team for the first time in like 15 years.

Chronz
01-08-2016, 03:45 PM
chronz it's not close though in their primes. It's really not. Gasol could've been had at any point in his career for a few second round picks. Then at age 33 was signed by the Bulls for basically the league minimum. I thought you said he's a superstar in his late years. Why did know one go after him in Free Agency a few years ago? Also I realize that he made the All Star game as a starter in the EAST last season. That tells me nothing. You're probably looking at things like that and take them out of context by not realizing how bad all the centers in the NBA were last season especially in the East.

I go with the better player in a comparison unless one played 3 years and the other 15 years. That is the only way that longevity in my book would surpass a better player.

But you're admitting that it's CLOSE. So you're saying that Webber was better in his prime for 8-9 years more so than Gasol's athletic prime. Just play along, because you're real stuborn and change your story all the time. So you're saying Webber was better by maybe 10% and that it's close.

So you think the Longevity is what far matters more then because you are saying that Gasol is better overall because of his playing to age 35-36 now at a pretty good level.

While I'll mention that I believe Webber did average 20 points per game or very close to it at age 33.

So you're saying that 2-3 more years at a B rate passes 10 A+ Years.


Also look at it this way.

Rate Gasol in the year 1997 amoung PF's and Centers, Just you're average prime Gasol of 18, 10, 3, and 2 blocks with zero intimidation. Doesn't really do a lot off the boxscore to tell you the truth. I don't like to admit that because I am a big Pau Fan. But Webber made players around him drastically better and added a toughness and rugged nature and tone to the game. It was easy for him. Plus Webber was faster, quicker, jumped higher, stronger, and a better play maker, in half court or open court. Webber was also a better defender overall.


Lets rank Pau in 1997 which would be an average Prime season for Webber.

Without looking at all the stats, because I don't have time and also they aren't the end all be all. I remember watching all the players and remember the 97 season well. It was one of the better seasons.

Shaq
Hakeem
Malone
Ewing
Kemp, yes Kemp went way beyond the numbers and adds athleticism to a team which is hard to duplicate.
Webber
Robinson, he was injured and they held him out the final 15 games to get the 1 pick
Barkley
Duncan maybe even in the NCAA where the Spurs were taking
Rodman, the best rebounder and a very active rebounder that could patrol the lane if you know what I mean
Mourning, a dominant defensive shotblocker and scorer in the lane.
Vin Baker, 21 and 10 with 2 blocks. No Gasol was never the player Vin Baker was in his prime either.
Mutombo, now we might finally be getting into Gasol territory, Mutombo is one of the best Defenders ever
Tom Gugliotta had a few great seasons even better than any season Gasol EVER had. 21, 9, 4, 1.3, 1
Pau Gasol, at 18, 10, 3, 2blocks
McDyess
Coleman
Laettner
Kevin Garnett as a young player about 19 years old.



I'm going to usually always pick the better "athlete" unless it's, Reggie Miller, Steph Curry.... sense a theme there.

The Dirk Nowitzki vs Kevin Garnett debate is probably the closest I've seen. One is a super athlete, but a bit of a head case at times, maybe not the best locker room guy, The other is a pretty good athlete, but was a great team guy that never caused any problems and has the MVP and FINALS MVP. Also averaged 27 a game a few times, so the Scoring Power is there, then add the fact that he's like 8th all time in Scoring and he has a slightly better longevity.

Add ALL that up and Dirk might just might have been the better overall player. But I usually just automatically go with the more athletic. Because it's so easy to win with athletes. That's what the game of basketball is truly about. It's an Athletic competition. Some kids today forget that and just want to stop at the three point line and chuck threes and not really play the game at a high level.
But if you want to say KG was better then I'm fine. afterall he was a 23, 13, 5 player in his prime with really good defense
I grew up in Dallas watching Dirk every game. So all that combined and I barely put Dirk over KG. But you could say it's a tie.

Webber and Gasol. No, dude I'm sorry, it's not even close. You saw where Prime Gasol ranks in Webbers Era. Gasol would make maybe 1-2 All Star games in his entire career had he been drafted in 93. That's is the truth. There is no bias in my judgment. I'm fair all the way.

You had to be dominant to make All Star games from 94-04.


Lets say Gasol was in the West from 94-04. He'd be beaten out by more dominant PF's each year like

Barkley, Malone, Kemp, Duncan, KG, Dirk, Webber, It wasn't until Barkley, Malone, Kemp, and Webber all retired that Gasol was able to make some All star games.

Hows it not close?

Webber was traded for peanuts when he got old, at least Pau had a resurgence when people counted him out. Pau didn't sign for the minimum either, the Heat were going to land him for cheap had Bron stayed but aside from that, teams like Chicago were offering substantial deals.

Pau posted better numbers in his own way. And no, Webber wasn't close to being the better defender/enforcer, he was too soft to play Center and rarely anchored elite defenses. He did have a mean snarl tho.

I havent changed my stance once here, which has been that its arguable both ways as to who was the better player at their best, yes its that close. Whats not arguable is that Pau has had the superior prime run, achieved more success and displayed greater versatility. That adds up to a greater legacy in these sort of rankings, I would just keep it simple and say Pau is better at all the important categories and thus was always the better player.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 03:46 PM
Also one other note, I know that the Warriors were a good team, and Washington was pretty good, but they weren't good before Webber and he at very young ages got them to the Playoffs as pretty much their best player. (Yes, I think he was a little better than Sprewell even as a rookie in 94). Then got the Wizards to the Playoffs in a rebuild and was only about 24 years old.

My point is that Pau wasn't making the playoffs until like 25 and Webber had already got his team in the playoffs at a very young age of 20. Even featured in a National Nike Commercial in 1994. He was a SuperStar from day one. Like really about 10 seasons. While Pau was a borderline superstar maybe only about 3 seasons and mainly that was due to playing for the biggest market and most popular team. Pau was a Star player.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 03:50 PM
Hows it not close?

Webber was traded for peanuts when he got old, at least Pau had a resurgence when people counted him out. Pau didn't sign for the minimum either, the Heat were going to land him for cheap had Bron stayed but aside from that, teams like Chicago were offering substantial deals.

Pau posted better numbers in his own way. And no, Webber wasn't close to being the better defender/enforcer, he was too soft to play Center and rarely anchored elite defenses. He did have a mean snarl tho.

I havent changed my stance once here, which has been that its arguable both ways as to who was the better player at their best, yes its that close. Whats not arguable is that Pau has had the superior prime run, achieved more success and displayed greater versatility. That adds up to a greater legacy in these sort of rankings, I would just keep it simple and say Pau is better at all the important categories and thus was always the better player.

You're full of it.

Why does Webber have the much better Career stats? Eventhough he suffered a major injury in 2003 playoffs after carrying a team against Shaq, Kobe and the rest of them he still played another 3-4 years and that brought his average down some and he still has the better Career Average over Gasol. I think he averaged 3 more points per game for his career. Also about 1 more rebound and about 1 more assist. Also 1 more steal.

mngopher35
01-08-2016, 03:57 PM
I think Gasol/Webber is a pretty good topic actually, hard to choose. When looking at their playoff production and longevity it is clearly Gasol while Webber has an argument as the main option and RS production probably. I will say that IMO the Adelman system helped Webber out statistically so that may help his peak #'s in SAC at least in the regular season (see Kevin Love in Adelman offense, same type of jump).

I think I would lean Gasol here but honestly could see arguments either way.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 04:48 PM
I think Gasol/Webber is a pretty good topic actually, hard to choose. When looking at their playoff production and longevity it is clearly Gasol while Webber has an argument as the main option and RS production probably. I will say that IMO the Adelman system helped Webber out statistically so that may help his peak #'s in SAC at least in the regular season (see Kevin Love in Adelman offense, same type of jump).

I think I would lean Gasol here but honestly could see arguments either way.

but you don't think playing for Bernie Bickestaff in Washington and averaging 21, 10, 5, 1.5, 1.5 in those years are good numbers.

The year he averaged 27, 11, 5.5 was when the Kings really had no one that could score. He had to score that many. I never saw Pau score that many.

I never saw Pau be the number one option on a team and take Shaq to 7 games and go toe to toe with Shaq for 7 games.

People are over-rating Pau,. Pau like most Euro players are professional and happy to be in the NBA so they have good longevity and consistent at about 18 and 9, then they will be 18 and 9 they're entire career nothing more nothing less. Also then never get into big fights with others so their is less chance of injury. Also Gasol's playoff career numbers aren't even close to Webbers. Webber averaged darn near a triple double in his first playoffs. Also the longevity isn't like one player played 50 games his entire career and the other played 1500.

It's actually 1000- 800. I just never put longevity as the main determining factor. If you do then you're saying you as a Denver Bronco fan would've rather not had Terrell Davis for 6 years and his 2 Rings he got you. It's disrespectful to count off from a player just because of injury. Especially when that player is a lot better than the other player. It would be very disrespectful to see Pau Gasol go into the Hall of Fame before players like Mark Aguire and Chris Webber.

It's almost like if Curry couldn't play another game in the NBA and had to retire you would rank Pau Gasol over him only on longevity.

Remember Webber was a MVP candidate in 99, 00, 01, 02.

I don't think Gasol was ever in the MVP race or in the top 10 in MVP voting.

But Webber was the much better talent.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 04:52 PM
What we have here is that some people want to be prisoners of the moment and overrate 16 and 12 pau at age 35. Some even treat it like he's 40 years old. That would rank him as one of the best 40 year olds to play in the NBA but it doesn't change his ranking as a 20-32 year old.

Many though are prisoners of the moment and don't remember the draw that Webber had and how good Webber was.

Those Webber led Kings and the Shaq led Lakers were drawing some pretty big numbers and ratings. They were drawing a 14 share on the Neilson rating in many of those games.

A Gasol led team would never draw a 14 let alone an 7 share.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 04:53 PM
If you're only claim to fame is playing a long time, then what are you? Anyone can play at a C level for a long time.

mngopher35
01-08-2016, 05:29 PM
but you don't think playing for Bernie Bickestaff in Washington and averaging 21, 10, 5, 1.5, 1.5 in those years are good numbers.

The year he averaged 27, 11, 5.5 was when the Kings really had no one that could score. He had to score that many. I never saw Pau score that many.

I never saw Pau be the number one option on a team and take Shaq to 7 games and go toe to toe with Shaq for 7 games.

People are over-rating Pau,. Pau like most Euro players are professional and happy to be in the NBA so they have good longevity and consistent at about 18 and 9, then they will be 18 and 9 they're entire career nothing more nothing less. Also then never get into big fights with others so their is less chance of injury. Also Gasol's playoff career numbers aren't even close to Webbers. Webber averaged darn near a triple double in his first playoffs. Also the longevity isn't like one player played 50 games his entire career and the other played 1500.

It's actually 1000- 800. I just never put longevity as the main determining factor. If you do then you're saying you as a Denver Bronco fan would've rather not had Terrell Davis for 6 years and his 2 Rings he got you. It's disrespectful to count off from a player just because of injury. Especially when that player is a lot better than the other player. It would be very disrespectful to see Pau Gasol go into the Hall of Fame before players like Mark Aguire and Chris Webber.

It's almost like if Curry couldn't play another game in the NBA and had to retire you would rank Pau Gasol over him only on longevity.

Remember Webber was a MVP candidate in 99, 00, 01, 02.

I don't think Gasol was ever in the MVP race or in the top 10 in MVP voting.

But Webber was the much better talent.

Pau never played in a similar system getting fed touches like that at a similar volume either. The same way Gasol never did some things Webber did, Webber never did the same as Gasol either (match Gasol's playoff impact, overall efficiency etc). While you say Webber has better playoff numbers, in reality that is far from the truth. Webber put up slightly better raw numbers but his efficiency wasn't even close to Gasol.

If we look at the first playoff only to 2003 which was his last great run and Pau from his first run to the 10' run we get a sample of games from each in their prime (47 games for Webber, 79 for Pau). In those years Webber scored 3 more ppg and had just over an assist more per game as well. However he also had 6 more shots per game and a little over an extra TO per game which means he was far less efficient to put up those numbers (ORTG of 120 to 102, TS% of .586 to .495). This is a drastic difference whereas the raw numbers have a smaller gap. It's because of this that over the same span Gasol had a better PER (21.9 to 20.1), WS/48 (.183 to .095), and BPM (5.3 to 4.0). Gasol also lead the Lakers 2010 team in total post season WS on his way to his second title. Again there is a difference in roles and situations but when we talk about playoff impact and results it clearly favors Gasol, moreso than any RS advantage Webber had. I am open to the discussion of how much effect their roles/teammates play here but then you better be open to the same thing when it comes to total numbers, especially RS under Adelman.

Longevity definitely matters when ranking players, not disrespectful at all. If you are someone that just goes off of peak play or something that is fine, but most take everything into account. While I don't think longevity is the end all of the discussion their peak/prime play was pretty similar overall so it's hard to just ignore longevity in that case.

I agree Webber was in the MVP race more-so than Pau but if we are already going to use his teammates against him (having Kobe) then we also must realize Kobe will get the MVP credit over him and Webber never had such a good teammate. Again though all of those MVP running years came under an Adelman offense in Sacramento. Klove got MVP recognition too in 2012 and 2014 putting up better offensive numbers (on less talented teams) when he was in a similar system. So while he got MVP recognition it could partially be due to role/system advantages in which Pau never had. Just like Gasol has a title/playoff success due to having better teammates and a secondary role.

I can see an argument for Webber as the better talent but when comparing their careers I think Gasol comes out on top. It is close though IMO no matter how you look at it.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 05:48 PM
Gasol did get the ball as much as Webber, He got it all the time in LA in the post playing in the triangle which is desgined to feed the post and Webber would've had even bigger numbers playing for Phil in the Triangle.

When someone says who was the better player, They mean who was the better player, not who played longer.

Webber played from age 20 to 33 at a high level. That's 13 years. Even late in his career with Philly he averaged 20 and 9 with 4 dimes. He was like 34 at that time.

What did Gasol average last season at 34? 17 and 12 right. Well Webber was better at age 34.

The longevity isn't really that big of a gap. It's like 1 season.

Everyone knows when judging a player you look at their 10 year prime and then that is what makes them the best or not. Extreme longevity might raise you 1 spot or 2, but it's not going to make a 100th best player a top 40 player all of a sudden. playing well at age 35 doesn't really magically make you a better player at age 25. That already happened. That is history.

For example. Jordan was ranked as the best player ever after his 5th season. He could've retired then and been rated number 1 all time and been the Goat. He would've left the fans wanting more, but that is a different story and doesn't affect their ability to play the game.

This thread is disrespectful to Webber and his accomplishments in his 12 year prime. Webber was twice the player Pau ever was.


Only a prisoner of the moment would think Gasol was the better player and thus had the better career.


I'm sorry but I'll take Jordan on my team for 8 years over Stockton for 20 any day.

valade16
01-08-2016, 05:52 PM
Some other things to look at.

C-Webb finished 4th in the MVP voting in 2000-2001; Pau never finished Top 10.

C-Webb's 5 highest VORP years compared to Pau's were:

C-Webb | Pau
6.1 | 5.6
5.7 | 5.6
4.9 | 5.3
4.9 | 4.5
4.5 | 3.5

Their top 5 highest BPM are:

C-Webb | Pau
6.6 | 5.4
6.2 | 5.3
5.9 | 5.1
5.3 | 5.0
4.9 | 4.2

PER:

C-Webb | Pau
24.7 | 24.1
24.4 | 23.3
23.4 | 22.9
21.8 | 22.7
21.7 | 22.7


So really when they say Pau's "advanced stats are better than C-Webb's" what they really mean are his TS% and Win Shares which is a problem I find all too often in today's analytical analysis.

It seems the only thing that matters is scoring efficiency. We can see that although Pau was a more efficient scorer, there are many advanced stats that show C-Webb's peak was superior.

As many have said, this argument is really about the distinction between best (talent) and greatest (achievements). I'd say Pau's rings and longevity give him the achievements, but I think C-Webb's peak impact and ability to be a #1 option give him the talent.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 05:57 PM
Webber with Kobe and that stacked Laker team coached by Phil would've won 75 games each year and swept the playoffs. Also they would've won 4 Titles in a row if not more.

Can you imagine Phil with Webber, Bynum, Odom, Artest frontline to work with.

Bynum was far more athletic than Divac and Artest in his prime was better than Peja. Odom was better than hedo.

It would've been like Shaq and Kobe all over again and they would've easily won 3-4 straight titles in blowout fashion.

The thing about an alpha player is that even if you put them with players like Kobe they still get there's like 24 a game. Infact many times it goes up. They get easier looks on the break and in half court. They get more open dunks. Also Kobe would inspire Webber to play even better. Webber still averages 25 and 12 with Kobe. Infact he'd get the ball more with Phil coaching him and also he'd even rebound more because Phil was really big on his PF grabbing rebounds. he'd usually add 2 rebounds to a pf's average.

So you're really looking at Webber being a 25 and 13 player with 5 assist.

Ask Garnett who the best PF he ever faced was. He'll tell you Webber. Webber was actually better than KG in his prime from 94-04. Even KG would say that all the time back then. KG said he learned so much from Webber and that Webber took him under his wing and taught him the game when they would play against each other 5 times a season and sometimes in the playoffs.

Webber could dominate both ends of the floor. Webber was so good coming out of college that HE BEAT THE USA DREAM TEAM LED BY AIR JORDAN, MAGIC AND LEGEND!!!

Watch the NBA over the next week or so and I bet you this will get around the national feed a bit and one of the experts on Espn like Jeff Van Gundy will tell you that Webber one of the top PF's ever. And better than all but Tim Duncan in his prime over the last 20 years.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 06:12 PM
Some other things to look at.

C-Webb finished 4th in the MVP voting in 2000-2001; Pau never finished Top 10.

C-Webb's 5 highest VORP years compared to Pau's were:

C-Webb | Pau
6.1 | 5.6
5.7 | 5.6
4.9 | 5.3
4.9 | 4.5
4.5 | 3.5

Their top 5 highest BPM are:

C-Webb | Pau
6.6 | 5.4
6.2 | 5.3
5.9 | 5.1
5.3 | 5.0
4.9 | 4.2

PER:

C-Webb | Pau
24.7 | 24.1
24.4 | 23.3
23.4 | 22.9
21.8 | 22.7
21.7 | 22.7


So really when they say Pau's "advanced stats are better than C-Webb's" what they really mean are his TS% and Win Shares which is a problem I find all too often in today's analytical analysis.

It seems the only thing that matters is scoring efficiency. We can see that although Pau was a more efficient scorer, there are many advanced stats that show C-Webb's peak was superior.

As many have said, this argument is really about the distinction between best (talent) and greatest (achievements). I'd say Pau's rings and longevity give him the achievements, but I think C-Webb's peak impact and ability to be a #1 option give him the talent.

Advanced stats like PER, and other stuff like that don't tell you the whole truth. First of all their bad formulas. A better one would just simply be points+rebounds+assist+stealsX3+blocksX3, plus FG% above 50%. That would be far better and it's more solid

But per is weighted against the average player of that season. The average player today is someone like Aminu, while an average player when Webber played was X. McDanial or some former All Star like that.

The leagues are 180 degerees different. Also there were more stars in the 90's and that brings down the PER of everyone.


Webber was very coveted coming out of college. He was traded for Hardaway and many other first round picks.

Webber was far more talented

mngopher35
01-08-2016, 06:28 PM
Gasol did get the ball as much as Webber, He got it all the time in LA in the post playing in the triangle which is desgined to feed the post and Webber would've had even bigger numbers playing for Phil in the Triangle.

This is just wrong, Webber clearly was more of a focal point for his offenses. Gasol never had a Usage% at 27 or higher for an entire season. Webbers average is over this and he broke 30% under Adelman in Sacramento. To take it a step further no one else on the Kings was usually over a low 20's % while Gasol on the Lakers always had Kobe who had similare usage to Webber, probably even higher. The same way Gasol wasn't the first option when it comes to defenses, he also clearly wasn't the first option in touches either which Webber clearly was.


When someone says who was the better player, They mean who was the better player, not who played longer.

Actually it depends a lot of times. Many times people discuss this topic as it pertains to all time ranks, in which case they are talking about the entire careers of players. Sometimes this is asked as in who had the better peak/prime too though. It just depends which people are talking about and in this case I have been talking about who ranks higher all time as a player. Longevity is always a factor when it comes to these rankings for me but others do just look at peak or prime.


Webber played from age 20 to 33 at a high level. That's 13 years. Even late in his career with Philly he averaged 20 and 9 with 4 dimes. He was like 34 at that time.

What did Gasol average last season at 34? 17 and 12 right. Well Webber was better at age 34.

First of all your facts are wrong as Webber averaged 4pts and 2 ast his age 34 season over 9 games. Webber at 32 was playing for Philly and putting up those numbers though. Even so, Gasol at age 34 still had the better year as you again show you can't analyze properly outside of simple raw numbers. Webber was playing on a bad non playoff team while Gasol was on a playoff squad (played less minutes, again lower volume of touches). PER 36 Gasol's raw stats are better than Webber (leading in pts, rebounds, blocks, less turns, efficiency). If we move onto advanced stats Gasol crushes him in the categories mentioned in my last post as well (ORTG, TS%, PER, WS/48. BPM). Gasol at 34 definitely had a better season than Webber at 32, it wasn't really that close. Once again you are just wrong with what you say.


The longevity isn't really that big of a gap. It's like 1 season.

Gasol has played over 200 more games and has over 5000 more minutes. I believe that would be more than a seasons worth.


Everyone knows when judging a player you look at their 10 year prime and then that is what makes them the best or not. Extreme longevity might raise you 1 spot or 2, but it's not going to make a 100th best player a top 40 player all of a sudden. playing well at age 35 doesn't really magically make you a better player at age 25. That already happened. That is history.

For example. Jordan was ranked as the best player ever after his 5th season. He could've retired then and been rated number 1 all time and been the Goat. He would've left the fans wanting more, but that is a different story and doesn't affect their ability to play the game.

This thread is disrespectful to Webber and his accomplishments in his 12 year prime. Webber was twice the player Pau ever was.


Only a prisoner of the moment would think Gasol was the better player and thus had the better career.


I'm sorry but I'll take Jordan on my team for 8 years over Stockton for 20 any day.

This last part is just your opinion which is fine but I would hope in the future you can back up your stance using a little more truth/reasoning. No way Jordan is consensus GOAT if he retires after 5 seasons lol, to each their own I guess. There is definitely an argument for Webber to be made but you haven't even come close to doing a good job so far here.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 06:33 PM
dude you're WRONG. They ran the offense THROUGH GASOL. ASK PHIL JACKSON. HE WOULD PASS OUT. They went to him literally 50 times a game and he would pass out of the post and mid post and they would swing it to the other side.

Gasol got the ball just as much as Webber.

Webber would've go the ball even more with the Lakers because Phil likes the post up basketball. Webber would've actually shot the ball unlike Gasol who passed out 80% of the time. That's fine basketball by Gasol, but Webber was the more talented and stronger athlete.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 06:39 PM
I'm going to use your SAME exact argrument to say that Pau had the better "career" than your boy Kevin Garnett and thus was the better player and more accomplished

The Advanced stats say Gasol is better. Also the per 36 minute stats and usage stats say Pau was better throughout his career.

Gasol and Garnett are really pretty even in their primes, but since Garnett hasn't been any good since the age of 32 only averaging 14, and 8 since that age. Also the very poor Playoff resume and all the losses in the first round year after year. While Gasol is still in his prime and hasn't dropped off a bit is averaging 17 and 11 since the age of 32. So because of the longevity, Pau's Playoff Resume and the Two Titles with three Finals Appearances, I'd say Pau had the better NBA career and should be ranked higher.

mngopher35
01-08-2016, 06:43 PM
dude you're WRONG. They ran the offense THROUGH GASOL. ASK PHIL JACKSON. HE WOULD PASS OUT. They went to him literally 50 times a game and he would pass out of the post and mid post and they would swing it to the other side.

Gasol got the ball just as much as Webber.

Webber would've go the ball even more with the Lakers because Phil likes the post up basketball. Webber would've actually shot the ball unlike Gasol who passed out 80% of the time. That's fine basketball by Gasol, but Webber was the more talented and stronger athlete.

Kobe was the clear leader of that offense in touches, I have no idea what you were watching. You want to call Gasol a secondary option to favor you, then claim he was actually more like a first option? Make up your mind and stick with it, he was clearly 2nd option to Kobe. Just because that now favors the opposite of one of your stances doesn't change his role.

I do agree he got touches in the post and Lakers did run offense through him, but not nearly to the same extent an Adelman offense runs through it best post player (again evident with Webber and Klove who both had their numbers jump in the system).

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 06:49 PM
Kobe was the clear leader of that offense in touches, I have no idea what you were watching. You want to call Gasol a secondary option to favor you, then claim he was actually more like a first option? Make up your mind and stick with it, he was clearly 2nd option to Kobe. Just because that now favors the opposite of one of your stances doesn't change his role.

I do agree he got touches in the post and Lakers did run offense through him, but not nearly to the same extent an Adelman offense runs through it best post player (again evident with Webber and Klove who both had their numbers jump in the system).

Actually maybe Fisher was the leader in touches. As Bibby was for the Kings.

The Kings spread the ball around to Peja, Divac, Christie, Bibby, Hedo, Bobby Jackson.

While the Lakers went to two players to create Pau and Kobe. Phil liked it going to Pau and would call his number about 60 times a game littlerally. I know the game. I knew Draymond would be this good back when he couldn't get off Mark Jackson's bench. I picked him in the first round of my Fantasy team draft and everyone thought I was wrong to pick him. Well he's averaging 15, 10, 7.5, 1.5, 1.5 That's called filling it up.

I know the game. Pau got it a ton, but he'd pass out. That's actually his best trait is that he's a selfless player and sometimes that's what wins.

But still Webber was 10 times the player. The eye test says.

ewing
01-08-2016, 06:52 PM
I'm going to use your SAME exact phony argrument to say that Pau had the better "career" than your boy Kevin Garnett and thus was the better player and more accomplished

The Advanced stats say Gasol is better. Also the per 36 minute stats and usage stats say Pau was better throughout his career.

Gasol and Garnett are really pretty even in their primes, but since Garnett hasn't been any good since the age of 32 only averaging 14, and 8 since that age. Also the very poor Playoff resume and all the losses in the first round year after year. While Gasol is still in his prime and hasn't dropped off a bit is averaging 17 and 11 since the age of 32. So because of the longevity, Pau's Playoff Resume and the Two Titles with three Finals Appearances, I'd say Pau had the better NBA career and should be ranked higher.

webb and pau gasol were better basketball players then kg.

Redrum187
01-08-2016, 06:54 PM
I'm sorry... I've never really been a Webber fan. His regular season career TS% (.513) is lower than Al Jefferson's. When we look at Webber's postseason numbers, it gets even more disgusting (< .500 TS%). Kobe Bryant can score a lot of points when he shoots a ton of shots.

Pau Gasol is consistently efficient in both regular season and playoffs (> .560 TS%). Pau Gasol's postseason numbers trumps Webbers and he has more to show for it. Gasol is also the superior defender. I'd have to say Gasol > Webber in my honest opinion.

mngopher35
01-08-2016, 06:58 PM
I'm going to use your SAME exact phony argrument to say that Pau had the better "career" than your boy Kevin Garnett and thus was the better player and more accomplished

The Advanced stats say Gasol is better. Also the per 36 minute stats and usage stats say Pau was better throughout his career.

Gasol and Garnett are really pretty even in their primes, but since Garnett hasn't been any good since the age of 32 only averaging 14, and 8 since that age. Also the very poor Playoff resume and all the losses in the first round year after year. While Gasol is still in his prime and hasn't dropped off a bit is averaging 17 and 11 since the age of 32. So because of the longevity, Pau's Playoff Resume and the Two Titles with three Finals Appearances, I'd say Pau had the better NBA career and should be ranked higher.

LOL you just don't know basketball at all do you. Again you prove to have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the Wolves.

KG was in a completely different league defensively than these guys and anchoring a defense is huge IMO when ranking. I could go in depth on his stats, MVP award, DPOY, title as the best player etc. but with you there isn't a point. You have once again proven to not be able to comprehend statistics (if I added KG to the statistical analysis earlier he comes out on top over Gasol and Webber, again though we wouldn't want facts getting in the way of your opinion though). On top of this KG has far more longevity than either of these guys (probably over 10,000 minutes more than Gasol), I guess you weren't watching bball the last 20 years though so I get how you missed that...

As Tredigs has pointed out in another thread or two, you are already proving to be one of the least informed posters on this site. Probably will be banned in a couple weeks when they check the IP and see ur a dupe.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 07:00 PM
Adleman liked Divac a ton and that is the player they would run a lot of the offense through. Webber was the relief and finisher.

Also why did he average 17, 9.5, 9.5 his first playoffs. Is that because he's not talented. Was that just luck?

How bout averaging in the 22, 10, 4 range all those years in Washington not too mention 1.5 steals which is 300% more than gasol gets because Webber is faster and quicker with better hands, and about 2 blocks a game while being an enforcer and tone setter, I can't say that enough. It's actually the most important thing in basketball above all else. I guess that means he was just not that good and just coach made again.

How did he get the Michigan Wolverines to the Final 4 twice back when College Basketball was actually good and watchable. How did he get the first pick in the draft with other notable players such as Hardaway, Rider, Baker and Houston . I guess all the scouts were wrong about him and they should've just waited until the second round to draft him. Because you're right and they're wrong.

Jeffy25
01-08-2016, 07:04 PM
I think he's behind Garnett, Duncan, and Dirk over the last 20 years....but that's it.

I could see him catching guys like Barkley all-time.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 07:04 PM
LOL you just don't know basketball at all do you. Again you prove to have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to the Wolves.

KG was in a completely different league defensively than these guys and anchoring a defense is huge IMO when ranking. I could go in depth on his stats, MVP award, DPOY, title as the best player etc. but with you there isn't a point. You have once again proven to not be able to comprehend statistics (if I added KG to the statistical analysis earlier he comes out on top over Gasol and Webber, again though we wouldn't want facts getting in the way of your opinion though). On top of this KG has far more longevity than either of these guys (probably over 10,000 minutes more than Gasol), I guess you weren't watching bball the last 20 years though so I get how you missed that...

As Tredigs has pointed out in another thread or two, you are already proving to be one of the least informed posters on this site. Probably will be banned in a couple weeks when they check the IP and see ur a dupe.

HAHA you don't know basketball if you would pick in a draft Gasol over Webber.

Redrum187
01-08-2016, 07:05 PM
As for answering the thread... I have no idea how to rank Pau Gasol. He is one of the more difficult players for me to rank. :(

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 07:08 PM
I think he's behind Garnett, Duncan, and Dirk over the last 20 years....but that's it.

I could see him catching guys like Barkley all-time.

I guess All Time is only about who plays longer. So Stockton is better all time than Magic Johnson on this site right?

I'm out of here.

Might aswell say I could see him catching Lebron James all time if he plays longer than LeBron. he's all ready matching him in Titles and only because of usage did he not average 27 a game like LeBron. So we won't look at stats.

Right now I have Gasol above LeBron unless LeBron can play at the same exact level he's playing at now when he's 38.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 07:10 PM
Video doesn't lie. Go watch the video.

Jeffy25
01-08-2016, 07:10 PM
I guess All Time is only about who plays longer. So Stockton is better all time than Magic Johnson on this site right?

I'm out of here.

Might aswell say I could see him catching Lebron James all time if he plays longer than LeBron. he's all ready matching him in Titles and only because of usage did he not average 27 a game like LeBron. So we won't look at stats.

Right now I have Gasol above LeBron unless LeBron can play at the same exact level he's playing at now when he's 38.

You sarcasm is enjoyable

Redrum187
01-08-2016, 07:10 PM
Adleman liked Divac a ton and that is the player they would run a lot of the offense through. Webber was the relief and finisher.

Also why did he average 17, 9.5, 9.5 his first playoffs. Is that because he's not talented. Was that just luck?

How bout averaging in the 22, 10, 4 range all those years in Washington not too mention 1.5 steals which is 300% more than gasol gets because Webber is faster and quicker with better hands, and about 2 blocks a game while being an enforcer and tone setter, I can't say that enough. It's actually the most important thing in basketball above all else. I guess that means he was just not that good and just coach made again.

How did he get the Michigan Wolverines to the Final 4 twice back when College Basketball was actually good and watchable. How did he get the first pick in the draft with other notable players such as Hardaway, Rider, Baker and Houston . I guess all the scouts were wrong about him and they should've just waited until the second round to draft him. Because you're right and they're wrong.

I don't know if this was unintentional, but you're wrong about Webber's first 3 playoff game averages.

Webber's first postseason:
15.7 ppg, 8.7 reb, 9.0 ast on TS% .529

They were swept that series too (not that it should hurt Webber all that much).

mngopher35
01-08-2016, 07:14 PM
Adleman liked Divac a ton and that is the player they would run a lot of the offense through. Webber was the relief and finisher.

Also why did he average 17, 9.5, 9.5 his first playoffs. Is that because he's not talented. Was that just luck?

How bout averaging in the 22, 10, 4 range all those years in Washington not too mention 1.5 steals which is 300% more than gasol gets because Webber is faster and quicker with better hands, and about 2 blocks a game while being an enforcer and tone setter, I can't say that enough. It's actually the most important thing in basketball above all else. I guess that means he was just not that good and just coach made again.

How did he get the Michigan Wolverines to the Final 4 twice back when College Basketball was actually good and watchable. How did he get the first pick in the draft with other notable players such as Hardaway, Rider, Baker and Houston . I guess all the scouts were wrong about him and they should've just waited until the second round to draft him. Because you're right and they're wrong.

You have lied in previous posts and have done it again, shocking. I never said that but you know I didn't, you are just getting mad because you can't come up with logical points in favor of Webber (even though there are plenty). If you wanna use pre draft rankings to start placing people all time that is ur call but I personally believe in actually watching them play in the NBA and judging off that performance.

Webber was a very good player even without Adelman but when the biggest point you make is ppg/apg and his MVP shares then you need to start considering the factors that go into it (role/style/team/efficiency etc). The question in this case is who was better Gasol or Webber and when everything gets factored in it is very close, I personally give the edge to Gasol. Not once have I likened him to 2nd round fodder or said anyone who doesn't think that is wrong, you just can't handle actual discussion.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 07:16 PM
didn't mean to do that. Haven't looked at those first season stats in many years. But is 15.7, 8.7, 9.0 a bad stat line. Then you factor in that he was all over the place with hustle, blocks, and deflections on defense.

Is that bad for a rookie going against a near 60 win team?

Redrum187
01-08-2016, 07:19 PM
didn't mean to do that. Haven't looked at those first season stats in many years. But is 15.7, 8.7, 9.0 a bad stat line. Then you factor in that he was all over the place with hustle, blocks, and deflections on defense.

Is that bad for a rookie going against a near 60 win team?

For his first 3 playoff games, he did remarkably well. This doesn't make him better than Gasol. (I'd also argue that steals and blocks are not a good measurement of defense. Though, he was better in his youth than when he aged.)

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 07:22 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQ9S-DjBrgo
This is him in college and some really great video. It shows his ability

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KttDVks6kV8

Here he is with Jason Williams and the Kings. Very nice plays he did.

valade16
01-08-2016, 07:26 PM
I'm sorry... I've never really been a Webber fan. His regular season career TS% (.513) is lower than Al Jefferson's. When we look at Webber's postseason numbers, it gets even more disgusting (< .500 TS%). Kobe Bryant can score a lot of points when he shoots a ton of shots.

Pau Gasol is consistently efficient in both regular season and playoffs (> .560 TS%). Pau Gasol's postseason numbers trumps Webbers and he has more to show for it. Gasol is also the superior defender. I'd have to say Gasol > Webber in my honest opinion.

What makes Pau a better defender?

Also, you know there's more to basketball than TS% right lol?

Pau and C-Webb is very close.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 07:28 PM
For his first 3 playoff games, he did remarkably well. This doesn't make him better than Gasol. (I'd also argue that steals and blocks are not a good measurement of defense. Though, he was better in his youth than when he aged.)

Don't count the last 16 games where he was past his prime and playing for Detriot. Don't count that.

We are counting primes here for 10 years.

Webber averaged about 20, 10, 4, 1.5, 1.5. Those defensive numbers are very high. Also he did play center and liked it. He was 6'10 255 and much stronger and better than Gasol ever came close to. Much more Creative player. Webber was a tone setter and everyteam he went to started passing because passing rubs off on others.

He was the leader of teams that won 60 games and went to the Western Finals.

When did Gasol win 60 as the leader and go to the WCF as the leader?

Redrum187
01-08-2016, 07:32 PM
What makes Pau a better defender?

Also, you know there's more to basketball than TS% right lol?

Pau and C-Webb is very close.

Bahahah yes, I responded to your TS and shooting response in the other thread too. :P

As Webber aged his defense suffered. Pau is a versatile defender who was quick enough to guard PF and C and do it well. He got a bad wrap for being weak prior to joining the Lakers, but that's just a myth. While he did improve slightly defensively after joining the Lakers, he was always above average. Webber is average at best from what I've seen of him.

In the end, their postseason numbers and success separates them for me. I know you focus more on regular season. But I agree, they are close in the rankings for sure. They may even be back-to-back.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 07:34 PM
Here he is against the best team ever and playing very well
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e5S8EpWXC5k

Here he is outplaying Prime Duncan
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QItjQjlMNOA

Here he getting 51 points and 26 rebounds vs a top ranked defense and Championship Contender
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QItjQjlMNOA

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 07:35 PM
Bahahah yes, I responded to your TS and shooting response in the other thread too. :P

As Webber aged his defense suffered. Pau is a versatile defender who was quick enough to guard PF and C and do it well. He got a bad wrap for being weak prior to joining the Lakers, but that's just a myth. While he did improve slightly defensively after joining the Lakers, he was always above average. Webber is average at best from what I've seen of him.

In the end, their postseason numbers separates them for me. I know you focus more on regular season. But I agree, they are close in the rankings for sure. They may even be back-to-back.


nonsense!

has pau even won a playoff game in the last 5 years?

Redrum187
01-08-2016, 07:40 PM
nonsense!

has pau even won a playoff game in the last 5 years?

Last season Pau and the Bulls advanced to the conference semifinals.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 07:41 PM
Here he is winning against a good magic team in 01.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhhlwTKD5kA

Here is his rookie playoff debut, nice to see how the NBA was in the early 90's.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q0JqW7hGzgE

A very talented player that I rank around as the 5th best PF ever. I used to have Dirk in there but I count off a bit when players just coast along for their final 5-8 years.

He goes beyond the numbers as you can see.

Here he is in his last Warrior Playoff game. Nelson didn't want to put a PF on Barkley and that is why they lost. Still in todays NBA set up I think It's a 4-1 series. Webber was having a great series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yjJTcR2AiZw

mngopher35
01-08-2016, 07:42 PM
HAHA you don't know basketball if you would pick in a draft Gasol over Webber.

So no actual response? Pretty much what I expected when you brought him up in the first place.

I guess that's the best way to go when ur take is just completely wrong. Feel free at any time to actually try and make that argument though. Weird you call out my knowledge of the game after using longevity in favor of Pau vs. KG (by age 32 KG had played more minutes than Gasol's entire career so far).

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 07:45 PM
Last season Pau and the Bulls advanced to the conference semifinals.

Was he even on the court in any of those games against a 30 win East team?

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 07:53 PM
I'm not even a Webber fan. I was a Barkley, Robinson, Olajuwon, Kemp, Jordan, Pippen fan.

But I do know what someone is being disrespected.

Webber is about a top 50 player because of his versatility. While Gasol is also a great player because of his 7'1 height and pretty good skill. Gasol is about 100th all time down with players like Vince Carter and such.

My only complaint about Webber is that while he was athletic he wasn't quite on the level athletically as other All Time Great PF's like Barkley, Malone, Kemp, or Duncan
also not as athletic as centers like Olajuwon, Ewing, Shaq, and Robinson. But more athletic than Pau and others.

Also he missed a few games, but can you fault a player because their coach is resting them?

Redrum187
01-08-2016, 07:55 PM
Was he even on the court in any of those games against a 30 win East team?

No he wasn't, because the Bulls didn't play a 30 win Eastern team.

However, he was on the floor when the Bulls beat the Bucks.

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 07:59 PM
No he wasn't, because the Bulls didn't play a 30 win Eastern team.

However, he was on the floor when the Bulls beat the Bucks.

Oh wow, he beat the bucks in a few games for his first playoff win in 5 years. Let's give him a medal

Redrum187
01-08-2016, 08:04 PM
Oh wow, he beat the bucks in a few games for his first playoff win in 5 years. Let's give him a medal

Pau and the Lakers advanced to the conference semifinals in 2012 as well. Which, if you aren't good at math, is less than 5 years. :)

BuckWilliams
01-08-2016, 08:34 PM
Here is a Young Chris Webber in 1995 going for 40 points 10 rebounds, 10 assist vs the Warriors.
this is some really good video and it also shows how much greater the NBA was in 1995.

A Legend is on the Call. It's when TNT was actually good and didn't just show 20 win teams every night like they do now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN68JtOH_uY

Chronz
01-08-2016, 08:38 PM
You're full of it.

Why does Webber have the much better Career stats? Eventhough he suffered a major injury in 2003 playoffs after carrying a team against Shaq, Kobe and the rest of them he still played another 3-4 years and that brought his average down some and he still has the better Career Average over Gasol. I think he averaged 3 more points per game for his career. Also about 1 more rebound and about 1 more assist. Also 1 more steal.

No Im just not buying your argument.

Why does Webber have inferior Career stats? Per game averages without taking into account efficiency, longevity and supporting cast isn't as important to me.

mngopher35
01-08-2016, 09:38 PM
Some other things to look at.

C-Webb finished 4th in the MVP voting in 2000-2001; Pau never finished Top 10.

I'm gonna jump in here cause I think this is a pretty interesting topic. It seems like you slightly favor Webber outside of accomplishments (so based on play/impact) so if you wanna discuss that more I am leaning Gasol overall. I can't tell which one you favor if you had to pick but I'm hoping it's Webber haha.

Something to consider with the MVP's thing that I have brought up is being in an Adelman offense as a good passing/scoring big man. We saw Love have ridiculous numbers in a similar setting as well (just worse surrounding talent), also getting MVP shares on worse teams. Add onto that Webber was the main option for a really good team while Gasol was 2nd option for a championship team (meaning Kobe will obviously get the votes over him). Now we also need to keep that in mind later in the discussion (it's tougher being the main option) but I am not sure this MVP stuff has much sway since Webber never won or was really that close.


C-Webb's 5 highest VORP years compared to Pau's were:

C-Webb | Pau
6.1 | 5.6
5.7 | 5.6
4.9 | 5.3
4.9 | 4.5
4.5 | 3.5

Their top 5 highest BPM are:

C-Webb | Pau
6.6 | 5.4
6.2 | 5.3
5.9 | 5.1
5.3 | 5.0
4.9 | 4.2

PER:

C-Webb | Pau
24.7 | 24.1
24.4 | 23.3
23.4 | 22.9
21.8 | 22.7
21.7 | 22.7


So really when they say Pau's "advanced stats are better than C-Webb's" what they really mean are his TS% and Win Shares which is a problem I find all too often in today's analytical analysis.

It seems the only thing that matters is scoring efficiency. We can see that although Pau was a more efficient scorer, there are many advanced stats that show C-Webb's peak was superior.

As many have said, this argument is really about the distinction between best (talent) and greatest (achievements). I'd say Pau's rings and longevity give him the achievements, but I think C-Webb's peak impact and ability to be a #1 option give him the talent.

So I personally think those numbers might help show that Webber had a better peak than Gasol but there is more to me. I generally like to look at roughly a 10 year prime when judging players impact (can be more or less depending, someone like Kobe might be more like 13 years). So if we look at both the regular season and post season stats from their early careers (injuries and team settings hurt later numbers) we get 94-03 for Webber and 03-12 for Gasol:

Gasol RS: PER 22.2, WS/48 .185, BPM 4.1, ORTG 115

Webber RS: PER 22.1, WS/48 .152, BPM 5.2 ORTG 106

Gasol PS: PER 20.9, WS/48 .166, BPM 4.8, ORTG 118

Webber PS: PER 20.1, WS/48 .095, BPM 4.0, ORTG 102

Now again you need to consider the system they were in for much of this and the role Webber/Gasol played (this definitely favors Webber who got more attention generally and had a higher volume). Also WS/48 for playoffs especially might be too in favor of Gasol due to the good laker teams winning a lot of playoff games. On Memphis his WS/48 was close to Webbers. Lastly this doesn't include a couple of great years from Pau recently which were easily better than anything else for Webber (and more of them). I think their peak could go to Webber but when extended to 10 year prime it is extremely close. Really hard to say since everyone cares about certain factors differently and won't see context of teammates/situations quite the same.

I think with the versatility Gasol had he was probably the better overall defender between them as well although it's debatable/close. When you take it all into account though and see that their prime impact was so close I just don't see how that extra longevity and accolades isn't the tie breaker between the two I guess. Would love to see a counter or opinion on why one might favor Webber more though.

PowerHouse
01-08-2016, 09:57 PM
I'm not even a Webber fan. I was a Barkley, Robinson, Olajuwon, Kemp, Jordan, Pippen fan.

But I do know what someone is being disrespected.

Webber is about a top 50 player because of his versatility. While Gasol is also a great player because of his 7'1 height and pretty good skill. Gasol is about 100th all time down with players like Vince Carter and such.

My only complaint about Webber is that while he was athletic he wasn't quite on the level athletically as other All Time Great PF's like Barkley, Malone, Kemp, or Duncan
also not as athletic as centers like Olajuwon, Ewing, Shaq, and Robinson. But more athletic than Pau and others.

Also he missed a few games, but can you fault a player because their coach is resting them?

Looks like BornReady aka AirPippen33 is back in da hizzy!

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 10:11 PM
"Here's a video."

"Here's another video."

"Here's one of him brushing his teeth."

Can someone track his IP and figure out who this clown is?

No one will ever say Stockton was better than Magic because Magic has accolades for DAYS to support his argument. Now, if it came down to the point where it was really close, of course we would use their longevity to support that player.

tredigs
01-08-2016, 10:12 PM
Here is a Young Chris Webber in 1995 going for 40 points 10 rebounds, 10 assist vs the Warriors.
this is some really good video and it also shows how much greater the NBA was in 1995.

A Legend is on the Call. It's when TNT was actually good and didn't just show 20 win teams every night like they do now.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VN68JtOH_uY
Hilariously, the Bullets were a losing team and the Warriors were a 20 some odd win team. What did I tell you about sitting the next few plays out? Educate yourself junior.

Chronz
01-08-2016, 10:59 PM
"Here's a video."

"Here's another video."

"Here's one of him brushing his teeth."

Can someone track his IP and figure out who this clown is?

No one will ever say Stockton was better than Magic because Magic has accolades for DAYS to support his argument. Now, if it came down to the point where it was really close, of course we would use their longevity to support that player.

Track down his IP and grant him his original account back. At least the guy is providing a counter point, hes not trolling anyone imo.

FlashBolt
01-08-2016, 11:02 PM
It's the Internet, which allows people who would normally cower in fear of a person with a real argument to hide behind a screen.

But that's fine. Please, explain to me how easily it would be for Pau to average 27 PPG in a season. He's never done anything to suggest he could even come close. But it is as simple as replacing a #1 option with a #2, you're right.

With all due respect, you guys should both just save yourself the time and stop. Your opinion of what could have happened, based on some meaningless advanced statistics and a few successful runs with a top 10 player of all time is not a jumping off point for an argument. It's nonsense.


Can someone track this clowns IP address. He thinks Gasol is a top 5 PF all time.
flashbolt you're an idiot.

I never said Gasol was a top five PF.. Where, why, how, when, what?

YAALREADYKNO
01-08-2016, 11:29 PM
Lmao damn im sorry I even started this Cwebb-gasol debate

ewing
01-09-2016, 12:12 AM
Track down his IP and grant him his original account back. At least the guy is providing a counter point, hes not trolling anyone imo.


agreed

BuckWilliams
01-09-2016, 02:27 AM
I'm curious where does Buck Williams rank?

That is an interesting question. All we get nowdays is questions trying to push current players in to a top ten list even unwarranted.


6'8, 240 long arms, built strong.
In Bucks Prime I think he was like a 17 and 14 type player for about 5 seasons with good tough defense, could get up in the air and block a shot when he wanted to about about 1 a game. Shot a very high % and would dunk often at the rim maybe almost one per game in his prime which lasted a while. Made two Finals I think.
After coming off the bench for a few years and playing until he was about 40 his career average was probably about 13 and 9 on 54% shooting.

Having said all that he's probably around 18th-22nd amound Pf's all time

ewing
01-09-2016, 09:58 AM
That is an interesting question. All we get nowdays is questions trying to push current players in to a top ten list even unwarranted.


6'8, 240 long arms, built strong.
In Bucks Prime I think he was like a 17 and 14 type player for about 5 seasons with good tough defense, could get up in the air and block a shot when he wanted to about about 1 a game. Shot a very high % and would dunk often at the rim maybe almost one per game in his prime which lasted a while. Made two Finals I think.
After coming off the bench for a few years and playing until he was about 40 his career average was probably about 13 and 9 on 54% shooting.

Having said all that he's probably around 18th-22nd amound Pf's all time


I was actually pissed when he retired. I remember when he first came to the knicks, i thought a though old vet to add to the bench. then when i saw him play and i couldn't believe the hops he had. Dude was athletic big on the knicks those 2 years.

DboneG
01-09-2016, 11:15 AM
I'm so surprised that you guys are comparing Pau Gasol to Chris Webber! What a joke! It's laughable!

There's really no comparison. Did you even watch the videos? (Links provided in previous posts)
Did you see C-Webb's passing skills?! Wow! C-Webb was amazing!

It's like an insult to make the Pau/C-Webb comparison.


I think guys here are passionate about Pau because of genetics. Here you finally, have another European that has some longevity and has played at a high level in the NBA, now you guys want to elevate him to the Top 5 or 10, and make all of these comparisons, when in actuality, I have a hard time putting Pau Gasol on my Top 25 all-time best power forwards.


Where would Pau Gasol be on the greatest players of all-time list? Not even in the top 100.


That's why the Lakers dumped him..Kobe was going crazy watching Pau not crashing the boards. Until, they fell out. I guess it got to the point where Kobe went to management and said get rid of this guy! "Get me somebody that wants to play down low".


Pau will make the HOF, but, he's soft in my book.

PurpleLynch
01-09-2016, 01:21 PM
I'm so surprised that you guys are comparing Pau Gasol to Chris Webber! What a joke! It's laughable!

There's really no comparison. Did you even watch the videos? (Links provided in previous posts)
Did you see C-Webb's passing skills?! Wow! C-Webb was amazing!

It's like an insult to make the Pau/C-Webb comparison.


I think guys here are passionate about Pau because of genetics. Here you finally, have another European that has some longevity and has played at a high level in the NBA, now you guys want to elevate him to the Top 5 or 10, and make all of these comparisons, when in actuality, I have a hard time putting Pau Gasol on my Top 25 all-time best power forwards.


Where would Pau Gasol be on the greatest players of all-time list? Not even in the top 100.


That's why the Lakers dumped him..Kobe was going crazy watching Pau not crashing the boards. Until, they fell out. I guess it got to the point where Kobe went to management and said get rid of this guy! "Get me somebody that wants to play down low".


Pau will make the HOF, but, he's soft in my book.

This is absolutely bs. Kobe didn't go to the FO asking for a Pau trade. If you followed the Nba in recent years you would know that Gasol was his most trusted teammate. This is a story that a 12 years old could craft. Or a dupe account.

ewing
01-09-2016, 01:25 PM
I knew Pau was going to get some disrespect in this thread but the amount he is gets from some is astounding. Apparently the the guy who was the best player in an NBA finals and who lead a team whose 2nd best player was Mike Miller to 3 season with about 50 wins couldn't be the best player on a good team.

Chronz
01-09-2016, 02:42 PM
I'm so surprised that you guys are comparing Pau Gasol to Chris Webber! What a joke! It's laughable!

There's really no comparison. Did you even watch the videos? (Links provided in previous posts)
Did you see C-Webb's passing skills?! Wow! C-Webb was amazing!

It's like an insult to make the Pau/C-Webb comparison.


I think guys here are passionate about Pau because of genetics. Here you finally, have another European that has some longevity and has played at a high level in the NBA, now you guys want to elevate him to the Top 5 or 10, and make all of these comparisons, when in actuality, I have a hard time putting Pau Gasol on my Top 25 all-time best power forwards.


Where would Pau Gasol be on the greatest players of all-time list? Not even in the top 100.


That's why the Lakers dumped him..Kobe was going crazy watching Pau not crashing the boards. Until, they fell out. I guess it got to the point where Kobe went to management and said get rid of this guy! "Get me somebody that wants to play down low".


Pau will make the HOF, but, he's soft in my book.

They actually let him go because he wanted to spend more time in the paint, so he left and joined a team where continued to post career highs in rebounding, so..... basically the exact opposite of what you said. Doubt Kobe is as dumb as you suggest. Pau is EASILY among the best PF's of all-time, sad to see someone struggle with something so simple.

mngopher35
01-09-2016, 03:03 PM
This is absolutely bs. Kobe didn't go to the FO asking for a Pau trade. If you followed the Nba in recent years you would know that Gasol was his most trusted teammate. This is a story that a 12 years old could craft. Or a dupe account.

Wait someone in here writing something that clearly shows he makes stuff up and hasn't been paying attention to the NBA? Looks like you found Buck Williams 2.0...

Redrum187
01-09-2016, 05:13 PM
I understand Chris Webber was the better passer in the regular season, but I find many people ignore postseason stats all too often. Pau Gasol average virtually the same assists on fewer turners than Chris Webber in the postseason, yielding him a 1.7 ast/to ratio to Webber's 1.29 ast/to.

Along with being a better passer, Gasol is actually the superior postseason rebounder. Gasol - 14.7 TRB%, Webber 13.3 TRB%.

Looking at the other postseason numbers, we can conclude Gasol produced on par (or better) with superior efficiency compared to Webber.

Why do people only post regular season stats?! :|

Chronz
01-09-2016, 05:33 PM
I understand Chris Webber was the better passer in the regular season, but I find many people ignore postseason stats all too often. Pau Gasol average virtually the same assists on fewer turners than Chris Webber in the postseason, yielding him a 1.7 ast/to ratio to Webber's 1.29 ast/to.

Along with being a better passer, Gasol is actually the superior postseason rebounder. Gasol - 14.7 TRB%, Webber 13.3 TRB%.

Looking at the other postseason numbers, we can conclude Gasol produced on par (or better) with superior efficiency compared to Webber.

Why do people only post regular season stats?! :|

Well said. Regular season wise they were very close, post season wise, not so much.

mngopher35
01-09-2016, 05:50 PM
I understand Chris Webber was the better passer in the regular season, but I find many people ignore postseason stats all too often. Pau Gasol average virtually the same assists on fewer turners than Chris Webber in the postseason, yielding him a 1.7 ast/to ratio to Webber's 1.29 ast/to.

Along with being a better passer, Gasol is actually the superior postseason rebounder. Gasol - 14.7 TRB%, Webber 13.3 TRB%.

Looking at the other postseason numbers, we can conclude Gasol produced on par (or better) with superior efficiency compared to Webber.

Why do people only post regular season stats?! :|

I don't disagree with what you say but want to just answer that last question. First of all regular season gives a much bigger sample size. Another is that teams get to game plan more for specific match ups in the playoffs. Many times (at least I feel) this can give advantages to players with better teams/systems/opponents etc. For example in this case if a defensive scheme was going to lock into the best players on each team to try and change their play webber would get tons of attention while gasol would likely benefit from the attention placed on Kobe. Now with the adelman system and gasol also receiving extra attention it isn't necessarily a huge gap due to context here for me, just an example.

Now I don't think playoffs should be ignored or anything like that and post season play is still a pretty big factor for me, context just becomes more important IMO. With a smaller sample size and the difference role/teammates/style/opponents can affect single series it gets a bit tougher to judge. Always need to look at both though, not disagreeing there. I just think rs numbers might seem a little more trustworthy in comparisons for those reasons so people use them more.

valade16
01-09-2016, 06:38 PM
I understand Chris Webber was the better passer in the regular season, but I find many people ignore postseason stats all too often. Pau Gasol average virtually the same assists on fewer turners than Chris Webber in the postseason, yielding him a 1.7 ast/to ratio to Webber's 1.29 ast/to.

Along with being a better passer, Gasol is actually the superior postseason rebounder. Gasol - 14.7 TRB%, Webber 13.3 TRB%.

Looking at the other postseason numbers, we can conclude Gasol produced on par (or better) with superior efficiency compared to Webber.

Why do people only post regular season stats?! :|

First, here are their AST% for the playoffs:

C-Webb - 19.1% (13.2 TO%)
Pau - 15.7% (11.6 TO%)

So 3.4% more assists and 1.6% less TOs. He was a better passer.

Secondly, here is a great stat. In Pau's career he had 10+ assists in a game 9 times (and had 9 assists in a game 8 times). C-Webb had 10+ assists in a game 26 times and 9 assists in a game 18 times.

But lastly, there is a serious debate to have here regarding C-Webb and Pau, but anyone who says Pau was a better passer (playoff or otherwise) is so blind there's really no point in continuing.

It's not even about stats, clearly you haven't watched enough of either player if your personal conclusion is Pau was a better passer than C-Webb.

Gander13SM
01-09-2016, 06:40 PM
Pau was a better ball handler than C-Webb. Passer? Whole other discussion.

flea
01-09-2016, 06:51 PM
Reminder that assists and assist % do not tell the whole story on passing - this applies doubly so for bigs.

valade16
01-09-2016, 06:53 PM
Also, if we want to look at playoff stats, here were Pau's playoff stats in Memphis as a #1 option:

20.0 PPG | 6.4 RPG | .537 TS% | 11.1 TRB% | .083 WS/48

When Pau was a #1 option in the playoffs we see his vaunted efficiency evaporates.

So when we look at the playoff numbers what we can say with certainty is Pau's as a 2nd option on a championship team are better than C-Webb's as a 1st option on a WCF team, and Pau's stats as a 1st option are no better (possibly worse) than Webber's as a 1st option.

Redrum187
01-09-2016, 07:03 PM
First, here are their AST% for the playoffs:

C-Webb - 19.1% (13.2 TO%)
Pau - 15.7% (11.6 TO%)

So 3.4% more assists and 1.6% less TOs. He was a better passer.

Secondly, here is a great stat. In Pau's career he had 10+ assists in a game 9 times (and had 9 assists in a game 8 times). C-Webb had 10+ assists in a game 26 times and 9 assists in a game 18 times.

But lastly, there is a serious debate to have here regarding C-Webb and Pau, but anyone who says Pau was a better passer (playoff or otherwise) is so blind there's really no point in continuing.

It's not even about stats, clearly you haven't watched enough of either player if your personal conclusion is Pau was a better passer than C-Webb.

First, a "better passer" isn't someone with a marginally higher AST%. When they are relatively equal, TO's become the 2nd most important variable when determining the superior passer. What good is having a high AST% if your TO% was twice as high (I'm not saying Webber's was, just making a point).

Secondly, you say Webber had 1.6% lower TO%? You posted the right TO% but seem think to think a higher TO% is better than a lower TO%. TO% = # of turnovers per 100 possessions. Webber turned it over at a higher percentage while marginally getting more assist per game (+0.2). We can agree to disagree on how we quantify who the better was: You can think having the marginally higher assists on higher turnovers yields the better passer, I'll maintain that when assists are relatively equal, I favor assist/to ratio.

As for your second point, I don't know what your point is. That Webber had higher total assist games? I think I even admitted in the regular season Webber was the superior passer (he even had a better assist/to ratio). The point I made was that in the postseason, it's switched.

I've watched both players play and I have basketball reference just as everyone else does. You can keep saying I'm saying Pau is the better passer period, I've only distinguished regular season and postseason which you're chronically incapable of.


I understand Chris Webber was the better passer in the regular season...

Did I confess Webber was the superior passer in the regular season? Yes, please reread the post you quoted.

Did I make a legitimate argument that Pau was a better passer in the postseason? Yes. You're the one who thinks a higher TO% is a good thing. Rather than accusing me of not watching either play, maybe you should understand advanced statistics. lol

valade16
01-09-2016, 07:11 PM
First, a "better passer" isn't someone with a marginally higher AST%. When they are relatively equal, TO's become the 2nd most important variable when determining the superior passer.

Secondly, you say Webber had 1.6% lower TO%? You posted the right TO% but seem think to think a higher TO% is better than a lower TO%. TO% = # of turnovers per 100 possessions. Webber turned it over at a higher percentage while marginally getting more assist per game (+0.2). We can agree to disagree on how we quantify who the better was: You can think having the marginally higher assists on higher turnovers yields the better passer, I'll maintain that when assists are relatively equal, I favor assist/to ratio.

As for your second point, I don't know what your point is. That Webber had higher total assist games? I think I even admitted in the regular season Webber was the superior passer (he even had a better assist/to ratio). The point I made was that in the postseason, it's switched.

I've watched both players play and I have basketball reference just as anyone else does. You can keep saying I'm saying Pau is the better passer period, I've only distinguished regular season and postseason which you're chronically incapable of.

Did I confess Webber was the superior passer in the regular season? Yes, please reread the post you quoted.

Did I make a legitimate argument that Pau was a better passer in the postseason? Yes. You're the one who thinks a higher TO% is a good thing. Rather than accusing me of not watching either play, maybe you should understand advanced statistics. lol

I'm aware a lower TO% is better, what I meant (and it was poorly worded) was C-Webb had 3.4% higher assist and Pau had 1.6% less TO.

And I'm still right. You say C-Webb's AST% was "marginally higher", well Pau's TO% was lower by even less than C-Webb's AST% was higher!

C-Webb was a better passer in the playoffs. I also want to point out Turnovers don't necessarily mean you're a bad passer but rather that you have the ball more.

C-Webb's USG was 26.7 in the playoffs. Pau's was 20.7. 26.7/13.1 USG/TO% is a better ratio than 20.7/11.6.

So C-Webb was involved in more plays, barely turned the ball over more and assisted more.

Redrum187
01-09-2016, 07:14 PM
One last thing:

While I think Pau is the better passer in the postseason, I don't think it's by a big margin at all. I even believe Webber is the better passer period (when looking at regular season and postseason). My point in showing postseason stats is that Pau relatively matches or betters Webber to a greater degree than the regular season (where they are much closer).

valade16
01-09-2016, 07:16 PM
One last thing:

While I think Pau is the better passer in the postseason, I don't think it's by a big margin at all. I even believe Webber is the better passer period (when looking at regular season and postseason). My point in showing postseason stats is that Pau relatively matches or betters Webber to a greater degree than the regular season (where they are much closer).

First, no Pau is not a better passer in the postseason. Second, look at Pau's postseason stats as a #1 option in Memphis, they are worse than C-Webb's.

Pau has better stats as a 2nd option to Kobe on a stacked team. But when Pau had to play the same role as C-Webb in the playoffs his stats were no better.

Redrum187
01-09-2016, 07:23 PM
I'm aware a lower TO% is better, what I meant (and it was poorly worded) was C-Webb had 3.4% higher assist and Pau had 1.6% less TO.

And I'm still right. You say C-Webb's AST% was "marginally higher", well Pau's TO% was lower by even less than C-Webb's AST% was higher!

C-Webb was a better passer in the playoffs. I also want to point out Turnovers don't necessarily mean you're a bad passer but rather that you have the ball more.

C-Webb's USG was 26.7 in the playoffs. Pau's was 20.7. 26.7/13.1 USG/TO% is a better ratio than 20.7/11.6.

So C-Webb was involved in more plays, barely turned the ball over more and assisted more.

The TO's ought to be closer in number because there are fewer turnovers than there are assists (at least, for good passers like Pau and Webber). Either way, I do agree it's marginal in the postseason.

I never meant to insinuate that Webber was a bad passer either. I think he is the better overall passer (regular season/postseason).

As for the last point, you do make a good point. Webber ought to get credit for having the ball more which ought to naturally account for more turnovers. However, a counter-argument is that having 6% lower usage rating while being on par with Webber assist/to wise deserves just as much credit, no?

Redrum187
01-09-2016, 07:28 PM
First, no Pau is not a better passer in the postseason. Second, look at Pau's postseason stats as a #1 option in Memphis, they are worse than C-Webb's.

Pau has better stats as a 2nd option to Kobe on a stacked team. But when Pau had to play the same role as C-Webb in the playoffs his stats were no better.

Are you saying the Memphis team is comparable to Webber's Scramento team? I get that you want to use a really small sample size where Pau was the number 1 option to measure it against Webber being the number 1 option, but in doing so, you're being a bit hypocritical in that the rest of Memphis was inferior to the Kings.

valade16
01-09-2016, 07:31 PM
Here's some more fun assist totals for their post-seasons.

Pau has 1 playoff game with 10 assists and 1 with 9 assists.

C-Webb did that his first playoff series his rookie year in a 3 game sweep vs Phoenix.

10+ assist games playoffs:
Pau 1 | C-Webb 3

9 assist games playoffs:
Pau 1 | C-Webb 2

8 assist games playoffs:
Pau 3 | C-Webb 4

7 assist games playoffs:
Pau 1 | C-Webb 2

Total playoff games with 7+ assists:
Pau 6 | C-Webb 11

And keep in mind, Pau has played 115 games and C-Webb 80. So in less games C-Webb had more 10, 9, 8 and 7 assist games.

But to answer your question, yes Pau gets credit for having a good AST/TO ratio on reduced touches. He's a very good passing big man. But C-Webb was simply better.

valade16
01-09-2016, 07:33 PM
Are you saying the Memphis team is comparable to Webber's Scramento team? I get that you want to use a really small sample size where Pau was the number 1 option to measure it against Webber being the number 1 option, but in doing so, you're being a bit hypocritical in that the rest of Memphis was inferior to the Kings.

Then use C-Webb's playoff stats with Washington and Golden State; they're still better.

flea
01-09-2016, 07:38 PM
Even if Webber is a better passer it's negligible. Call that a wash, especially like ewing pointed out Webber played in the Princeton offense that was designed to get him passing looks at the rim.

How about the rest of their offensive games? The knock on Webber was settling for jumpers and fadeaways. He never shot enough in the low post area to be considered much more than adequate there, and his rates weren't that good in that area of the floor. Meanwhile Pau has always worked a lot in the low post and shot it well from there. That plus the postseason - to me it's no contest.

The only way you think Webber is better is if you think his defense was way ahead. Considering he was a worse shotblocker than Pau and worse rebounder across the board (especially in playoffs), I've got a tough time buying that one either. I think Pau was easily better defensively personally.

Redrum187
01-09-2016, 07:39 PM
Then use C-Webb's playoff stats with Washington and Golden State; they're still better.

His 1 GSW postseason and 1 Washington postseason account over a 4 year span. A total of 6 games. I get you love to cherry pick and use small sample sizes, call out one bias (Lakers being stacked, ignoring Kings would rape the Grizzlies), but you just don't compare a player's postseason resume this way.

If we did, Scottie Pippen would be devalued by a large margin if we compared modern #1 option players to Pippen as the #1 option. That would be ignoring their prime body of work in favor of a ridiculously smaller sample size to evaluate an entire resume.

mngopher35
01-09-2016, 07:44 PM
Are you saying the Memphis team is comparable to Webber's Scramento team? I get that you want to use a really small sample size where Pau was the number 1 option to measure it against Webber being the number 1 option, but in doing so, you're being a bit hypocritical in that the rest of Memphis was inferior to the Kings.

Here is what they looked like statistically before hitting their main spots (kings/lakers), they are pretty close. http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=1&y1=2007&p1=gasolpa01&y2=1998&p2=webbech01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

I agree though that to ignore his time on the Kings and what that did to his stats would be like ignoring Pau was 2nd option in LA. For example when Webber was traded to philly to play with a ball dominant guard (iverson) his AST% dropped from 27.0% to 17.5%.

valade16
01-09-2016, 07:46 PM
His 1 GSW postseason and 1 Washington postseason account over a 4 year span. A total of 6 games. I get you love to cherry pick and use small sample sizes, call out one bias (Lakers being stacked, ignoring Kings would rape the Grizzlies), but you just don't compare a player's postseason resume this way.

I don't care what you think. It's a fact, when he was the #1 option his playoff stats weren't any better. You say Pau had a small sample size because it was only 12 games? That's partially his fault considering he'd have a bigger sample size had he won more.

I also want to point out, I'm not ignoring the Kings would rape the Grizzlies, I specifically said don't use the Kings then, that's the opposite of ignoring them lol.

You're going to think what you want, but one thing you can't say is Pau played better as a #1 option in the playoffs than C-Webb.

valade16
01-09-2016, 07:51 PM
Even if Webber is a better passer it's negligible. Call that a wash, especially like ewing pointed out Webber played in the Princeton offense that was designed to get him passing looks at the rim.

How about the rest of their offensive games? The knock on Webber was settling for jumpers and fadeaways. He never shot enough in the low post area to be considered much more than adequate there, and his rates weren't that good in that area of the floor. Meanwhile Pau has always worked a lot in the low post and shot it well from there. That plus the postseason - to me it's no contest.

The only way you think Webber is better is if you think his defense was way ahead. Considering he was a worse shotblocker than Pau and worse rebounder across the board (especially in playoffs), I've got a tough time buying that one either. I think Pau was easily better defensively personally.

First, their passing is not a wash. C-Webb was better. Before C-Webb ran the Princeton offense he actually assisted more. So that myth can stop being used now, he had better passing numbers because he was a better passer, not because of the Princeton offense.

Second, he was not a worse rebounder. He has a higher TRB% in his prime. Pau does have a better one in the post-season, but if any area is a wash between them, it's probably this one.

Third, I think C-Webb was a better defender before his knee injury. Slightly less blocks but way more steals. Pau is getting seriously overrated defensively here.

Redrum187
01-09-2016, 07:54 PM
I don't care what you think. It's a fact, when he was the #1 option his playoff stats weren't any better. You say Pau had a small sample size because it was only 12 games? That's partially his fault considering he'd have a bigger sample size had he won more.

I also want to point out, I'm not ignoring the Kings would rape the Grizzlies, I specifically said don't use the Kings then, that's the opposite of ignoring them lol.

You're going to think what you want, but one thing you can't say is Pau played better as a #1 option in the playoffs than C-Webb.

Webber didn't win in GS or Washington either though (swept)... I wouldn't say it's either of their faults they don't have many games played in the years you specified. The fault lies in the person who wants to look at the micro sample to make a macro assessment of their postseason resumes.

You're right about me not saying Pau played better as a #1 option than Webber. Pau wasn't in his prime when he was the #1 option so I have insufficient data to compare it to Webber as the number 1 option. What I do have, however, is sufficient data to suggest that while they are close, Pau separates himself in the postseason in their accumulative professional resume.

valade16
01-09-2016, 07:59 PM
Webber didn't win in GS or Washington either though (swept)... I wouldn't say it's either of their faults they don't have many games played in the years you specified. The fault lies in the person who wants to look at the micro sample to make a macro assessment of their postseason resumes.

that's rich coming from the guy who wants to look at the micro sample of playoffs to make a macro assessment over their regular seasons.

I'm also not using those stats to make a macro assessment of their overall playoff resumes, I'm simply stating a fact. Pau Gasol as a #1 option doesn't have better playoff stats than C-Webb.

ewing
01-09-2016, 08:00 PM
First, their passing is not a wash. C-Webb was better. Before C-Webb ran the Princeton offense he actually assisted more. So that myth can stop being used now, he had better passing numbers because he was a better passer, not because of the Princeton offense.

Second, he was not a worse rebounder. He has a higher TRB% in his prime. Pau does have a better one in the post-season, but if any area is a wash between them, it's probably this one.

Third, I think C-Webb was a better defender before his knee injury. Slightly less blocks but way more steals. Pau is getting seriously overrated defensively here.


Do you think the Kings would have definitely been a worse team with Gasol instead of C Webb? Do you think the Lakers would have definitely been better with C Webb instead of Gasol?

valade16
01-09-2016, 08:01 PM
You're right about me not saying Pau played better as a #1 option than Webber. Pau wasn't in his prime when he was the #1 option so I have insufficient data to compare it to Webber as the number 1 option. What I do have, however, is sufficient data to suggest that while they are close, Pau separates himself in the postseason in their accumulative professional resume.

Well that's the disconnect right there. I don't care about their resumes (and I've said as much. Heck I even said Pau has a better resume), I'm talking about who was the actual better player.

valade16
01-09-2016, 08:10 PM
Do you think the Kings would have definitely been a worse team with Gasol instead of C Webb? Do you think the Lakers would have definitely been better with C Webb instead of Gasol?

Definitely? No. Those Kings weren't getting past the Lakers unless they had like TD, Dirk or KG.

I could see the Lakers being slightly better. But I'm not arguing C-Webb was way better, I'm saying it's very close and IMO C-Webb has a slight peak edge as a player. Prime or longevity or however you do that Pau has been good longer.