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lol, please
12-21-2015, 03:11 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/14404850/klay-thompson-golden-state-warriors-names-best-shooting-guard-nba

Thoughts?

Slug3
12-21-2015, 03:23 PM
I would take Harden and Butler over him still.

numba1CHANGsta
12-21-2015, 03:37 PM
He has a ring and his team has only 1 loss, he's proven it

Tony_Starks
12-21-2015, 03:41 PM
Well Kobe and Wade are finished so I don't see why not. Butler MAY have something to say but the jury's still out...

Arch Stanton
12-21-2015, 04:02 PM
I don't think it's an outrageous statement. I like him over Harden. But think it's pretty close with Butler.

nickdymez
12-21-2015, 04:03 PM
That position is wide open when it comes to who is hands down the best in the league playing it. Depends on what a team needs. There are no Kobe's, wade's out there, guys that are just truly special players. A lot of very, very good sg's in the league now though.

My point is there isn't a guy who is head and shoulders above the rest of them.

mngopher35
12-21-2015, 04:09 PM
I would put him 3rd after Harden and Butler but he should think he's the best (as should they).

DanG
12-21-2015, 04:12 PM
I wouldn't trade Klay for any other SG in the league if I'm the Warriors. He is really that good, but Harden has a better all-around game. If I'm starting a team I would have him and possibly Butler over Klay because they are more 1st option like, especially Harden. Klay is the perfect 2nd option for the Warriors and a top 20-25 player in the league IMO.

JAZZNC
12-21-2015, 04:19 PM
The only reason I'm hesitant to say yes is because nobody knows how he would do as a #1 option. We at least know that Butler and Harden can carry a team as a #1 option on offense. If I had to pick one for my team I would choose Butler/Thompson then Harden. Hardens D has regressed back to just a total joke this year and I think that gives a slight edge to Butler and Klay. I feel like Klay could be a #1 if given the opportunity I just highly doubt he would be as efficient. I'd say it's very close between him and Butler. To the point I think it's basically a coin flip.

Vee-Rex
12-21-2015, 04:38 PM
Nothing wrong with him believing it. He's certainly in the top tier of SGs in the league.

Personally I'd take Butler over him. Klay is more efficient shooting and a better free throw shooter, but that's it. Butler is a better passer, rebounder, doesn't force as many turnovers, and is a much better defender (Klay is good but Butler is an elite defender). And it's possible that if Klay was a number one option his overall efficiency would drop and mirror Butler's a bit more.

warfelg
12-21-2015, 04:47 PM
The only reason I'm hesitant to say yes is because nobody knows how he would do as a #1 option. We at least know that Butler and Harden can carry a team as a #1 option on offense. If I had to pick one for my team I would choose Butler/Thompson then Harden. Hardens D has regressed back to just a total joke this year and I think that gives a slight edge to Butler and Klay. I feel like Klay could be a #1 if given the opportunity I just highly doubt he would be as efficient. I'd say it's very close between him and Butler. To the point I think it's basically a coin flip.

This is where I fall. I want to say yes, but Butler is doing it as the guy offensively for his team.

jerellh528
12-21-2015, 05:02 PM
He's up there enough where there's really zero qualms with him sayin it, but I'd say he's third.

kdspurman
12-21-2015, 05:03 PM
SG is a rather weak position at this point. He has an argument, but I'd take Butler.

Hawkeye15
12-21-2015, 05:28 PM
That position is wide open when it comes to who is hands down the best in the league playing it. Depends on what a team needs. There are no Kobe's, wade's out there, guys that are just truly special players. A lot of very, very good sg's in the league now though.

My point is there isn't a guy who is head and shoulders above the rest of them.

that is my view as well. There isn't anyone who is clearly the best SG in the game right now.

BKLYNpigeon
12-21-2015, 05:41 PM
Klay is a Top 3 SG.

You can put Butler, Harden and Klay in any order.

They bring something completely different to the table and have different strengths and weaknesses.

JWO35
12-21-2015, 06:01 PM
#Whereisthelie

IKnowHoops
12-21-2015, 06:10 PM
I think Harden is the most talented and skilled SG in the league easily. But obviously its not all about talent and skill.

CHANGO
12-21-2015, 06:30 PM
You can't say you are the best SG when you aren't even the leader or 1st option of your team. C'mon man, would he be great being the 1st option of his team? Would he have the energy to defend the best guys night in and night out while carrying the load like Wade, Kobe, Butler, etc... Did and does?

I don't think so, he's a great two way player and arguably the second best 2 way SG behind Buttler but I don't see him being a great 1st option in any team.

Hawkeye15
12-21-2015, 06:38 PM
You can't say you are the best SG when you aren't even the leader or 1st option of your team. C'mon man, would he be great being the 1st option of his team? Would he have the energy to defend the best guys night in and night out while carrying the load like Wade, Kobe, Butler, etc... Did and does?

I don't think so, he's a great two way player and arguably the second best 2 way SG behind Buttler but I don't see him being a great 1st option in any team.

why not? Steph is clearly the best player in the game right now, by default Klay could be the 2nd best player and your statement would be nullified. Meaning, not Klay's problem that there is a lack of elite SG's, and he happens to play with Jesus right now

Hawkeye15
12-21-2015, 06:39 PM
Klay is a Top 3 SG.

You can put Butler, Harden and Klay in any order.

They bring something completely different to the table and have different strengths and weaknesses.

yep. Those 3 are kind of on their own teir right now, with a very big tier behind them.

Scoots
12-21-2015, 06:46 PM
I wouldn't trade Klay for any other SG in the league if I'm the Warriors. He is really that good, but Harden has a better all-around game. If I'm starting a team I would have him and possibly Butler over Klay because they are more 1st option like, especially Harden. Klay is the perfect 2nd option for the Warriors and a top 20-25 player in the league IMO.

Harden has a better OFFENSIVE game ... not "all-around" as that includes D.

Harden and Butler have regressed this year as has Thompson ... Thompson has been playing hurt and he's now starting to get back to full strength.

I hadn't really thought about it, and it's not an "obviously" player A or player B thing ... but yeah, right now I'd take Klay, then Butler.

WaDe03
12-21-2015, 07:10 PM
Well Kobe and Wade are finished so I don't see why not. Butler MAY have something to say but the jury's still out...

If you mean finished as in being the best than you are probably right. If you mean Wades finished as in Kobe finished than you're definitely wrong. As for the topic Klay wasn't even playing like a top 5 SG up until a few games ago. If he can keep this level of play up he has an argument.

Bartlee23
12-21-2015, 07:13 PM
The question really comes down to what are the guidelines? I think Thompson said the right thing. On the best team in basketball and why would you say someone is better than you? Best offensive player is Harden, best shooter is Thompson but if I'm starting a team with a guy that can score, rebound, pass and guard the best guy on the other team IMO it's Butler all day.

NoFlyZone27
12-21-2015, 07:54 PM
I would take Harden and Butler over him still.

Agreed.

CHANGO
12-21-2015, 07:56 PM
why not? Steph is clearly the best player in the game right now, by default Klay could be the 2nd best player and your statement would be nullified. Meaning, not Klay's problem that there is a lack of elite SG's, and he happens to play with Jesus right now

My point is, that I don't think it's fair to compare two guys (Harden [ewww I'm defending him] and Butler) who are clearly 1st options on their teams, with Klay who is maybe the 3rd or 2ndB option on the W's. You don't know how a player is going to play being the MAN. Would Draymond Green be the best PF in the game if he was on another team(not saying he's the best btw)?

beasted86
12-21-2015, 08:22 PM
Well Kobe and Wade are finished so I don't see why not. Butler MAY have something to say but the jury's still out...

Funny Lakers fan trying to group Kobe and Wade still.... Hahahahaha. Or like my Hispanic brothers say .... Jajajajajaja..... :laugh2:

Raps18-19 Champ
12-21-2015, 08:26 PM
Then maybe you should play like it.

beasted86
12-21-2015, 08:36 PM
why not? Steph is clearly the best player in the game right now, by default Klay could be the 2nd best player and your statement would be nullified. Meaning, not Klay's problem that there is a lack of elite SG's, and he happens to play with Jesus right now

I like Thompson and he's in the discussion, but everything comes as part of the system. I don't even need to look up the stats to know he's likely assisted on 75% plus.

I'm never going to simply take his production at face value without considering a player's use and system into account. It's like Nash and his inflated stats in SSOL.

Could he be like Ray Allen when moved to Boston and is simply thriving in what they are asking him to do right now, but still be elite otherwise if asked to produce without all the catch and shoot? Possibly. But we probably won't know for a long time. But from what I'm watching of his skill set, he looks like he will always be a catch and shoot player who isn't a true number one option because he can't create something at the end of a shot clock on a broken play or regularly draw fouls.

JasonJohnHorn
12-21-2015, 09:10 PM
If I was drafting a SG from guys in the league and had the first pick, it'd be Klay that I picked.

lol, please
12-21-2015, 10:42 PM
If I was drafting a SG from guys in the league and had the first pick, it'd be Klay that I picked.

How would he fit in the Pistons system? (assuming that is your team)

mightybosstone
12-21-2015, 11:49 PM
I realize that Harden and the Rockets have not played up to their caliber to start the season, but Thompson is not on his level as a basketball player. Also, what the hell is up with the answer options on this poll, lol? Have you never taken a poll or a multiple choice test in your life? It's really not that hard to come up with some legitimate poll answers.

Saddletramp
12-22-2015, 01:13 AM
I realize that Harden and the Rockets have not played up to their caliber to start the season, but Thompson is not on his level as a basketball player. Also, what the hell is up with the answer options on this poll, lol? Have you never taken a poll or a multiple choice test in your life? It's really not that hard to come up with some legitimate poll answers.

It's lol,please. He probably hasn't.

I gotta agree with the people that said Harden is better all around (his offense way outweighs his defense) and I'd rather have Butler than Klay. But Klay is perfect for what the Warriors need from the SG spot so I can't argue there.

Harden
Butler

Klay

Everyone else.

kobe4thewinbang
12-22-2015, 02:27 AM
Harden is a better scorer, but I think Klay is just ahead of the surging Butler.

THE MTL
12-22-2015, 10:21 AM
Last year, I would have said he makes a strong case for best SG, but this year the Warriors are winning alot of games with him struggling. Harden's overall game and ability to be the #1 option on offense is what makes him better.

tsubibo
12-22-2015, 10:54 AM
Would pick Butler or Harden over him. Golden States system is great for Thompson's game. I just wonder how he would thrive in another team.

Wrigheyes4MVP
12-22-2015, 11:08 AM
I'll take Klay #1. I agree with him. People think his efficiency would go down if he were a #1 option. I think he would just ball out at and be a beast. No way to prove it though. But, I'll take his elite shooting over the other options.

Tony_Starks
12-22-2015, 12:08 PM
Well Kobe and Wade are finished so I don't see why not. Butler MAY have something to say but the jury's still out...

If you mean finished as in being the best than you are probably right. If you mean Wades finished as in Kobe finished than you're definitely wrong. As for the topic Klay wasn't even playing like a top 5 SG up until a few games ago. If he can keep this level of play up he has an argument.


I mean finished as in finished being elite. Obviously Wade still has a little gas left in the tank, whereas Kobe is literally finished and running on fumes. But both of their days of being in the conversation are over.....

Scoots
12-22-2015, 12:18 PM
Last year it was CLEARLY Harden ... but his D has massively regressed this year.

colinskik
12-22-2015, 12:51 PM
Seems like my opinion on this guy might live in the minority, but f Klay Thompson.

First off, it's easy to play well when you're on the best team with the best player in the league. Would love to see how well he'd fare as "the best SG in the league" if he played for the Lakers.

Secondly, his attitude has always seemed like sour grapes. Like, wahhh Steph is better than me but don't forget how great I am. Wahhh get my bottle. Give me a bath in the sink. Wahhh.

Check out this quote from the link:
"Right now, Steph's a better shooter," Thompson said. "I'm trying to catch him. Just by a little, though. Not by a lot. I can't say he's way better than me. He is one of the greatest, and it's an honor to be in the same backcourt with him."

HOw about you give the man his props and shut up about your shooting ability. He is way better than you. Wayyyyy wayyyyyyyyy better. Nobody really cares about you. At least not as much as we care about Steph.

CarolinaCDM
12-22-2015, 01:06 PM
1. Harden
2. Butler
3. DWade
4. Wiggins
5. Thompson

ANYBODY would look good filling the 2 spot on this Warriors team...Could you imagine Harden having the luxury of the defense focusing on Curry all game??? Come on Man, Klay on the current Houston team woudnt be a top 10 SG

Hawkeye15
12-22-2015, 02:02 PM
I realize that Harden and the Rockets have not played up to their caliber to start the season, but Thompson is not on his level as a basketball player. Also, what the hell is up with the answer options on this poll, lol? Have you never taken a poll or a multiple choice test in your life? It's really not that hard to come up with some legitimate poll answers.

looking ay just this season, Klay has just as good a case as Harden does. I will say, if we are taking everything into account (past seasons, future predictions), yes, Harden by a smidge. But Harden also isn't guarding anyone again, and his complete lack of effort to begin the season hurts him.

Does Klay still play tough defense is asked to carry the load Harden does? No idea. But it's all speculative.

AIverson
12-22-2015, 08:20 PM
Klay Thompson is definitely better than Jimmy butler. A lot of people have an agenda against the Warriors for some reason and don't like giving them credit outside of steph. But when is hitting... the way he opens up the court for that offense and defends on the other end is truly a sight to behold.

WaDe03
12-22-2015, 08:34 PM
Harden
Wade
Butler
Klay
Derozan now that he gets superstar calls

cmellofan15
12-22-2015, 09:24 PM
Wade is nowhere near Butler and Thompson defensively so I think that takes him out of the top three convo. I've gotta give him some props tho, he's still performing well in a season where I thought there would be a huge decline.

dalton749
12-22-2015, 11:39 PM
Harden
Wade
Butler
Klay
Derozan now that he gets superstar calls

Lol derozan has always been one of the best in the league at getting to the line. He had an off year last year because of injury until the last month or so, but now he's back to improving on his allstar play from 2 years ago and is pretty much an equal to all these guys depending on what you prefer out of your 2 guard

mrblisterdundee
12-23-2015, 12:26 AM
Klay Thompson is the best three point-shooting shooting guard. But so far this season, James Harden, Jimmy Butler and even Dwyane Wade have all been better.
Thompson's biggest weakness is his ball-handling. He's not the creator that Harden and Wade are. Of course it's hard to tell how well he distributes the ball when he plays with Stephen Curry and Draymond Green.
Thompson and Butler are pretty close in usage rate and performance, but I think Butler's a better defender. I expect Wade to break down eventually, but as of now, he's got a 33 percent usage rate and some pretty good statistics playing 30 minutes per game on a good Miami team.

houstonfan
12-23-2015, 12:43 AM
Like many have said I think its:
Harden
Butler

Klay

Do the Rockets win 56 games last year with Klay instead of Harden? I don't think so. Yes, Harden's defense is back to what it was in 2014, but he is still the better player. Now you could talk me into Butler but Im giving the slightest edge to Harden still.

sf-fanatic
12-23-2015, 03:35 AM
I wouldn't trade Klay for any other SG in the league if I'm the Warriors. He is really that good, but Harden has a better all-around game. If I'm starting a team I would have him and possibly Butler over Klay because they are more 1st option like, especially Harden. Klay is the perfect 2nd option for the Warriors and a top 20-25 player in the league IMO.

I see an argument that Harden is better, but this isnt anywhere close to the reason I would use.

lol, please
12-23-2015, 03:22 PM
Like many have said I think its:
Harden
Butler

Klay

Do the Rockets win 56 games last year with Klay instead of Harden? I don't think so. Yes, Harden's defense is back to what it was in 2014, but he is still the better player. Now you could talk me into Butler but Im giving the slightest edge to Harden still.

Why such a gap between Harden and Butler, and Klay? :confused:

Bron > Kobe
12-23-2015, 05:34 PM
Like many have said I think its:
Harden
Butler

Klay

Do the Rockets win 56 games last year with Klay instead of Harden? I don't think so. Yes, Harden's defense is back to what it was in 2014, but he is still the better player. Now you could talk me into Butler but Im giving the slightest edge to Harden still.

Klay is no slouch on offense at all and his defense is much better than Hardens. I dont understand the huge gap.

Chronz
12-23-2015, 10:54 PM
I see an argument that Harden is better, but this isnt anywhere close to the reason I would use.

Whys that?

lol, please
12-24-2015, 03:22 PM
Klay is no slouch on offense at all and his defense is much better than Hardens. I dont understand the huge gap.

After games like last night, it's hard to argue against Klay.

Gander13SM
12-24-2015, 04:18 PM
Sorry but it sure as hell isn't Harden. Not this year. No way.

Butler you could make an argument for.

But really it's not a big deal. Klay is top 2/3 at his position and it's believing he's the best that helps him sustain this level of play.

sf-fanatic
12-24-2015, 06:07 PM
Whys that?

I feel like if you are one of the worst defenders at your position (maybe historically bad), you shouldnt be called an "all around player".

FriedTofuz
12-24-2015, 06:16 PM
I'll take Jimmy Butler over every guy including Harden.

lol, please
12-24-2015, 06:43 PM
I feel like if you are one of the worst defenders at your position (maybe historically bad), you shouldnt be called an "all around player".

This. Harden can be an amazing scorer, he has offensive juggernaut potential, but he is far from a complete player. Heck he's probably closer to one dimensional than well rounded.

mngopher35
12-24-2015, 06:53 PM
After games like last night, it's hard to argue against Klay.

Each of the last two years Klay has been behind the other two in PER, WS and WS/48, and BPM/Vorp and it wasn't necessarily close in all categories. Last year he was the least efficient offensively and this year they are all pretty close (114 ORTG for JB and Klay, 113 for Harden). On top of this the other two are the best players on their teams and get most of the attention from defenses while Klay is not which is important to factor in.

Klay is assisted on 79% of his baskets and has a defender outside of 4 feet away on 57% of his shots this yr (for comparison JB it is like 55% assisted and 41% of shots with no tight defender, Harden likely even further away). Now this isn't to say what Klay does isn't impressive but he is very clearly in a better situation where good shots are easier to come by (and much of it is due to his teammates, not himself creating). The other two are able to keep a similar efficiency or better while actually being the ones taking top defenders and creating more for themselves and others. I think it's definitely harder to argue for Klay than against him...

CluTcH_c1tY
12-24-2015, 10:47 PM
Can Klay even create a shot for himself? Every time I see a Warriors game he's scoring off assists. He's an incredible player no doubt playing on a great team.
1. Harden 2. Butler 3. Klay

BHF
12-24-2015, 11:36 PM
I think Klay would be even better player than he is right now if he was the number one option on his team.

FlashBolt
12-25-2015, 03:32 AM
The hell? Sorry, but I'd take Wade/Butler/Harden and then maybe Klay or DeRozan. I really doubt Klay becomes as successful without that kind of roster boost. BTW, the thought of Klay being a top SG just shows how terrible the SG position has become. Meanwhile, the SF position is booming right now. SF right now is clearly the best position in basketball.

FlashBolt
12-25-2015, 03:35 AM
I don't like Harden but if you think Klay is better, how many games would the Rockets win with Klay and not Thompson? Not many.

prodigy
12-25-2015, 04:47 AM
He has a ring and his team has only 1 loss, he's proven it

So by this Bogut is the best center in the game right? has a ring and team only has 1 loss. lol. I get what you are saying, But i hate when people bring up rings. Lets break the players skill set down and figure out if he's the best that way. Then you can throw in rings as sugar on top.

Harden is a horrible defender i could never pick him as best because avg players can score just as much on him. Butler has a better more all around skill set but he's sooo inconsistent.

Thompson shooting ability plus his defense. can rebound a little and pass. So he might be the best right now. I'd take Wade if i had just one game to win though.

Gander13SM
12-25-2015, 09:03 AM
I don't like Harden but if you think Klay is better, how many games would the Rockets win with Klay and not Thompson? Not many.

I hate when people say that. It's so stupid. A team is built around its franchise player. They wouldn't be as good with Klay because that team is built for Harden.

Also because Klay is more of a well rounded player. Harden is a "handle the scoring bulk" sort of guy.

It's like taking Harden away and replacing him with Leonard. Leonard is by far the better player, Harden however is still the better scorer.

Gander13SM
12-25-2015, 09:06 AM
Can Klay even create a shot for himself? Every time I see a Warriors game he's scoring off assists. He's an incredible player no doubt playing on a great team.
1. Harden 2. Butler 3. Klay

1. You've clearly never watched a Warriors game if you aren't aware of him being able to create for himself and take guys off the dribble.

2. Being a great off ball player isn't a negative thing. It's a great thing. It means you don't need the ball in your hands to be effective. That's a good thing.

3. Harden isn't even top 3 right now. Gtfo.

CluTcH_c1tY
12-25-2015, 11:45 AM
1. You've clearly never watched a Warriors game if you aren't aware of him being able to create for himself and take guys off the dribble.

2. Being a great off ball player isn't a negative thing. It's a great thing. It means you don't need the ball in your hands to be effective. That's a good thing.

3. Harden isn't even top 3 right now. Gtfo.
Wow you're very delusional if you don't even think Harden is a top 3 sg. The hate is real! I've watched alot of Warriors games and I know what I've seen. Klay would never do what Harden did last year. Take a team depleted by injuries and grab the 2nd seed. If I was you I would just enjoy the Warriors success and wouldn't even ponder the "What if" scenarios.

Htownballa1622
12-25-2015, 11:48 AM
I'm just curious of who this "King" Klay is?

0nekhmer
12-25-2015, 11:52 AM
It's hard to say who's the best player as everyone interprets what that is differently.. Scoring abilities are influenced by the volume of shots, efficiency, and how dominating you can be individually as well as how clutch you are. Defense should be a large indicator as well as the game is a team sport, you still need to be a solid defender to even be considered a superstar (all stars are one dimensional). Then comes the intagibles like rebounding, passing and creating for teammates.

Having said that, different positions will stock each factor differently. Guards are more scrutinized by their ability to create, while forwards need to be a defensive threat.

This is why we cannot compare players like lebron and Curry because they play completely different games and it ends up being a personal opinion of "number of rings, team wins, etc" that determine the marginal differences with these guys.

Knick bag
12-25-2015, 12:33 PM
I would take Butler 1st because he is a better 2way player. Harden 2nd Klay 3rd.

Scoots
12-25-2015, 01:11 PM
The hell? Sorry, but I'd take Wade/Butler/Harden and then maybe Klay or DeRozan. I really doubt Klay becomes as successful without that kind of roster boost. BTW, the thought of Klay being a top SG just shows how terrible the SG position has become. Meanwhile, the SF position is booming right now. SF right now is clearly the best position in basketball.

PG may be the best position in the NBA right now. LeBron, PG, and Kawhi are great but the depth at the position isn't as good as the depth at PG.

CarolinaCDM
12-25-2015, 02:12 PM
Just out of curiosity...nobody here thinks that Wiggins should be in the discussion? Or is it that yall consider him a SF?

BKLYNpigeon
12-25-2015, 02:29 PM
Klay Thompson is a top 3 SG in the NBA

So Klay, Harden and Butler have the "RIGHT" to say that they're the Best SG in the NBA.


if you're at that level, you better that believe you're the best.

Gander13SM
12-25-2015, 05:52 PM
Wow you're very delusional if you don't even think Harden is a top 3 sg. The hate is real! I've watched alot of Warriors games and I know what I've seen. Klay would never do what Harden did last year. Take a team depleted by injuries and grab the 2nd seed. If I was you I would just enjoy the Warriors success and wouldn't even ponder the "What if" scenarios.

The Warriors success is irrelevant to me.

We're talking about right now. Not last season.

Last season people thought Harden was better than Curry. This season it's clear that Curry is on a completely other level from Harden.

A lot has changed. Harden has reverted back to being the worst defensive 2 guard in the entire league. He's had a horribly slow start followed by a solid 7 or 8 game stretch.

He's a scorer. He's not top 3 at his position.

Klay, Butler, Wade > Harden this year.

I don't hate Harden. Last year he was definitely the best SG in the league. By far. But this year? Nah. He's not that guy.

If I was you I would stop living in the past and catch up.

Gander13SM
12-25-2015, 05:53 PM
Just out of curiosity...nobody here thinks that Wiggins should be in the discussion? Or is it that yall consider him a SF?

He should definitely be in the discussion. I have him over Harden, he's top 4.

mngopher35
12-25-2015, 07:07 PM
He should definitely be in the discussion. I have him over Harden, he's top 4.

Lol this is ridiculous. I was gonna just leave it alone in your other posts but clearly you have some issues with Harden. Wiggins isn't even close to Harden yet, although I definitely hope he gets there someday.

Harden/Butler are the two best SG's in the league and at worst you could throw Klay in making Harden 3rd (probably a little Homer/Hater but at least not completely crazy). Wade isn't at that level anymore (although with the state of the position might be after those 3) and Wiggins is clearly not ready to jump into the conversation quite yet.

Vee-Rex
12-25-2015, 07:28 PM
Each of the last two years Klay has been behind the other two in PER, WS and WS/48, and BPM/Vorp and it wasn't necessarily close in all categories. Last year he was the least efficient offensively and this year they are all pretty close (114 ORTG for JB and Klay, 113 for Harden). On top of this the other two are the best players on their teams and get most of the attention from defenses while Klay is not which is important to factor in.

Klay is assisted on 79% of his baskets and has a defender outside of 4 feet away on 57% of his shots this yr (for comparison JB it is like 55% assisted and 41% of shots with no tight defender, Harden likely even further away). Now this isn't to say what Klay does isn't impressive but he is very clearly in a better situation where good shots are easier to come by (and much of it is due to his teammates, not himself creating). The other two are able to keep a similar efficiency or better while actually being the ones taking top defenders and creating more for themselves and others. I think it's definitely harder to argue for Klay than against him...

Very good post.

Gander13SM
12-25-2015, 08:00 PM
Lol this is ridiculous. I was gonna just leave it alone in your other posts but clearly you have some issues with Harden. Wiggins isn't even close to Harden yet, although I definitely hope he gets there someday.

Harden/Butler are the two best SG's in the league and at worst you could throw Klay in making Harden 3rd (probably a little Homer/Hater but at least not completely crazy). Wade isn't at that level anymore (although with the state of the position might be after those 3) and Wiggins is clearly not ready to jump into the conversation quite yet.

Harden this year? No way.

Harden last year > every other 2 guard in the league. Top 5 overall.

mngopher35
12-25-2015, 08:34 PM
Harden this year? No way.

Harden last year > every other 2 guard in the league. Top 5 overall.

Both of them are Harden, just different samples of his play with this season being much smaller. If you want to argue Harden dropped from a top 5 player to worse than Wade/Wiggins all due to a 30 game sample size that is on you. You would still be way off to say Harden hasn't played better in that time though. It really is ridiculous. I don't wanna bash Wiggins cause I'm a Wolves fan so I will compare Harden to Wade since you put him higher at 3rd.

PER, WS and WS/48 and BPM all favor Harden and it is substantially. Harden scores more points per game on better efficiency and is more efficient overall offensively by a good margin (113 ORTG to 102 for Wade). He also has more assists/rebounds and at better rates as well (although Wade does have OREB% adv). Lastly Harden has produced almost double the points through scoring/assisting compared to Wade this year (1362 to 739). The area where Wade has an edge is defense where we compare an average wing defender (at this point, age 34) to a poor wing defender. The gap of impact they have on that end doesn't even come close to what they do offensively for either so this certainly won't be a turning point (especially considering the large gap in their production).

Harden is clearly the better player at this point and it really isn't close even if we just look at this season which you seem to prefer (I personally believe on using everything including recent seasons to rank, especially early into the year).

Gander13SM
12-25-2015, 08:57 PM
Great stats.

How's his defense?

He's a 10 on offense. 0 on defense. The gap is too big
Negates what he does on the other end.

lol, please
12-25-2015, 09:00 PM
He should definitely be in the discussion. I have him over Harden, he's top 4.

Wiggins shouldn't be in the same sentence as Klay Thompson.

Gander13SM
12-25-2015, 09:11 PM
I don't think Harden has been efficient either. Only in the last 10 games or something. He was terrible early on.

None of this means he won't be top 2/3 seasons end. But right now? Nope.

mngopher35
12-25-2015, 09:42 PM
Great stats.

How's his defense?

He's a 10 on offense. 0 on defense. The gap is too big
Negates what he does on the other end.

Lol exactly what I expected. No response to the info provided, no disputing the points I brought up and no actual defense of your reasoning (outside of the laughable idea he's neutral due to defense). Not only are you wrong but you can't even bring up any sort of backing to your opinion while the other side can easily go into detail about why Harden is clearly better (see my last post, not sure if you read it or not). If you have any sort of actual reasoning/analysis here I would be open to hearing it though.

If you want some in depth look at defense it is much harder to do statistically but the idea that being poor on that end negates a top 10 offensive wing is ridiculous in itself. Offense is more important than defense individually, especially from non-bigs. With that said looking at defensive rating (107 to 104), defensive WS (same each at .9 DWS but Harden with more time), defensive BPM (-.7 to -.2), DRPM (-1.88 to -1.81) and the shooting % of players against them both (47.1 to 46.5) Harden is just a little bit worse right now than Wade. The gap is very small statistically but I would agree that Harden regressed from last season and started off bad on that end. However we are talking about small differences from poor-below average defenders where on offense there is a big gap and it is where both actually make their impact. I am sorry but Harden is far better on the end that matters most and Wade has next to no positive impact anymore on the other end anyways (a lot of that has to do with age).

Again if you have anything to actually add to the discussion I am more than open to hearing the other side. As it stands though you seem to just want to ignore everything except this idea that Harden is a neutral player due to poor defense (and when I say that I mean just slightly worse than Wade).

lol, please
12-26-2015, 04:06 PM
I don't think Harden has been efficient either. Only in the last 10 games or something. He was terrible early on.

None of this means he won't be top 2/3 seasons end. But right now? Nope.

At this rate? Doubtful.

Scoots
12-27-2015, 03:54 PM
Great stats.

How's his defense?

He's a 10 on offense. 0 on defense. The gap is too big
Negates what he does on the other end.

I think this is probably the best way to look at it ... Let's say Thompson is a 7 on offense and a 7 on D ... His 14 would be better than Harden's 13 if we were to give Harden a 10 on offense and a 3 on D. The gap isn't big and the numbers are just to illustrate a point so don't act like I meant them specifically.

The fact is that fans generally value offense more than D and Harden is no question elite on that side of the floor and if he put even average effort on the other end he's #1 no question (last year he was better than average on D and the gap from him to everyone else was significant) ... but not this year nor the year before.

If I had to draft one it would not be Harden because him playing D is the aberration rather than the rule.

cmellofan15
12-27-2015, 04:18 PM
how do you quantify this rating system? seems pretty unsubstantiated assuming these numbers are coming out of thin air. also, at that position your offense is a lot more valuable than your defense, and I don't think that's just fan perspective. If we use your system, a guy like danny green who is probably like a 8 or 9 on defense, and a 4 on offense is close to or equal to James Harden.

COACHTOU
12-27-2015, 04:41 PM
this is a tough one because we dont know how klay would be as a player on a team where he has to play harden like role

mngopher35
12-27-2015, 05:24 PM
how do you quantify this rating system? seems pretty unsubstantiated assuming these numbers are coming out of thin air. also, at that position your offense is a lot more valuable than your defense, and I don't think that's just fan perspective. If we use your system, a guy like danny green who is probably like a 8 or 9 on defense, and a 4 on offense is close to or equal to James Harden.

Ya that is pretty bad haha. I mean Kawhi>Curry, Mourning=Shaq, Chandler=Dirk etc are all types of comparisons that could come using that method for ranking players (person on the left is always there due to defense while the one on the right more due to offense). It is quite obvious that in every scenario the offensive player was actually better but when you just give each a simple o and d ranking that's what happens. Definitely gotta re-think that method for ranking.

On top of this Wade would be like 1 higher on defense in these rankings while Harden would be a few higher offensively. Harden still clearly the better player this season between the two.

Scoots
12-27-2015, 07:20 PM
LOL, I wasn't trying to make a "system" I was just saying that Harden's D is soooooooo bad right now that it almost makes his offensive contributions moot. There is a long history of teams where the top player on the team were elite on offense and bad on defense and the story is always about how bad their teammates are and how unlucky they were to not win a title ... but it's also because 1 player not playing D completely breaks team defense and makes it nearly impossible to win it all.

lol, please
12-27-2015, 08:45 PM
LOL, I wasn't trying to make a "system" I was just saying that Harden's D is soooooooo bad right now that it almost makes his offensive contributions moot. There is a long history of teams where the top player on the team were elite on offense and bad on defense and the story is always about how bad their teammates are and how unlucky they were to not win a title ... but it's also because 1 player not playing D completely breaks team defense and makes it nearly impossible to win it all.
Well said.

mngopher35
12-27-2015, 09:30 PM
LOL, I wasn't trying to make a "system" I was just saying that Harden's D is soooooooo bad right now that it almost makes his offensive contributions moot. There is a long history of teams where the top player on the team were elite on offense and bad on defense and the story is always about how bad their teammates are and how unlucky they were to not win a title ... but it's also because 1 player not playing D completely breaks team defense and makes it nearly impossible to win it all.

Whether trying to make one or not you used it to compare klay/harden. We are just pointing out how useless that method is for comparisons. Harden is elite (top 10 or so) offensively in the league and poor defense doesn't negate that at all (just like magic can be top 10 all time with much weaker defense than most around there). Being able to lead a team offensively (creating for self and others) is more important than the difference from avg-below for a guard defender.

Harden also isn't as bad as you guys seem to make him out to be (again it is far from neutralizing him as a player, that's laughable). Defensively he is worse than butler or klay but we are talking about a poor defender not some guy who completely destroys you on that end. He has more obvious lapses then other players (laziness/not paying attention to his man) which can make it seem worse than it is I guess. His overall impact on that end is somewhat comparable to wade though, just a bit worse (the post gander quoted covers this a little more).

Some teams (those that already have great playmakers) might prefer klay as a second/third option to harden due to fit. No one should be talking about wade over harden though, still ridiculous. Same for wiggins.

Scoots
12-28-2015, 11:33 AM
Whether trying to make one or not you used it to compare klay/harden. We are just pointing out how useless that method is for comparisons. Harden is elite (top 10 or so) offensively in the league and poor defense doesn't negate that at all (just like magic can be top 10 all time with much weaker defense than most around there). Being able to lead a team offensively (creating for self and others) is more important than the difference from avg-below for a guard defender.

Harden also isn't as bad as you guys seem to make him out to be (again it is far from neutralizing him as a player, that's laughable). Defensively he is worse than butler or klay but we are talking about a poor defender not some guy who completely destroys you on that end. He has more obvious lapses then other players (laziness/not paying attention to his man) which can make it seem worse than it is I guess. His overall impact on that end is somewhat comparable to wade though, just a bit worse (the post gander quoted covers this a little more).

Some teams (those that already have great playmakers) might prefer klay as a second/third option to harden due to fit. No one should be talking about wade over harden though, still ridiculous. Same for wiggins.

The 5 Rockets games I've seen this year Harden has been horrible on D. He's slow to rotate, takes bad angles, gambles for the glory steal exposing teammates to fouls ... and Harden doing that stuff against scheme is spreading to teammates habits as well. The Rockets need leadership, and it needs to come from Harden.

mngopher35
12-28-2015, 12:14 PM
Whether trying to make one or not you used it to compare klay/harden. We are just pointing out how useless that method is for comparisons. Harden is elite (top 10 or so) offensively in the league and poor defense doesn't negate that at all (just like magic can be top 10 all time with much weaker defense than most around there). Being able to lead a team offensively (creating for self and others) is more important than the difference from avg-below for a guard defender.

Harden also isn't as bad as you guys seem to make him out to be (again it is far from neutralizing him as a player, that's laughable). Defensively he is worse than butler or klay but we are talking about a poor defender not some guy who completely destroys you on that end. He has more obvious lapses then other players (laziness/not paying attention to his man) which can make it seem worse than it is I guess. His overall impact on that end is somewhat comparable to wade though, just a bit worse (the post gander quoted covers this a little more).

Some teams (those that already have great playmakers) might prefer klay as a second/third option to harden due to fit. No one should be talking about wade over harden though, still ridiculous. Same for wiggins.

The 5 Rockets games I've seen this year Harden has been horrible on D. He's slow to rotate, takes bad angles, gambles for the glory steal exposing teammates to fouls ... and Harden doing that stuff against scheme is spreading to teammates habits as well. The Rockets need leadership, and it needs to come from Harden.

I saw that type of defense the first couple I watched this year but since then he has looked better IMO, closer to last year. Like I said he does have a couple obvious bad gambles or lazy plays a game which makes it look worse but overall he's just a poor defender. I do agree multiple other rockets are bad on that end and not playing great as a team but that isn't all on harden. He should continue to improve on that end for his team, no doubt though.

However there is only one other sg in the conversation who is leading their team like that and it's butler (the only sg I think has a decent argument over him). When it comes to players like wade they aren't leading the defense either, his teams defense is just better. Harden is the best offensive leader of the group.

lol, please
12-28-2015, 06:53 PM
Wait...so if a player is an elite offensive player, we ignore their deficiencies on defense? :confused:

mngopher35
12-28-2015, 07:30 PM
Wait...so if a player is an elite offensive player, we ignore their deficiencies on defense? :confused:

Not at all, but being elite offensively and poor defensively is better than being above average on both ends (maybe less so from a big man, then it can be tougher to judge since they are more heavily relied on). Not sure how this is news though, Magic is widely considered in the top 10 (some even top 5) without being very good on that end.

Again it is different if someone is anchoring the defense but none of these guys outside of Butler come close to that role on defense and Harden is the only elite offensive player on the other end. I can see Klay taken over Harden for some teams for fit as well but that's it. Wade/Wiggins no way.

G_S_W
12-29-2015, 04:11 AM
Hardon is destroying his team's morale. Above and beyond his numbers, Hardon cannot lead a team--but he's doing an excellent job of alienating his teammates. When role players stepped up last season and committed to playing defense, it was all good. Now that they know they'll never touch the ball and are relegated to standing and watching, things are not so good.

As far as Klay, he's a consensus top 3 SG. I wish dubs players would stop with the trash talk and the stroking of their own ego's. The Dubs are one of the greatest teams of all time. No need to become arrogant jerks in the process.

G_S_W
12-29-2015, 04:12 AM
Not at all, but being elite offensively and poor defensively is better than being above average on both ends (maybe less so from a big man, then it can be tougher to judge since they are more heavily relied on). Not sure how this is news though, Magic is widely considered in the top 10 (some even top 5) without being very good on that end.

Again it is different if someone is anchoring the defense but none of these guys outside of Butler come close to that role on defense and Harden is the only elite offensive player on the other end. I can see Klay taken over Harden for some teams for fit as well but that's it. Wade/Wiggins no way.

Klay is not exactly average on offense.

Gander13SM
12-29-2015, 07:51 AM
Hardon is destroying his team's morale. Above and beyond his numbers, Hardon cannot lead a team--but he's doing an excellent job of alienating his teammates. When role players stepped up last season and committed to playing defense, it was all good. Now that they know they'll never touch the ball and are relegated to standing and watching, things are not so good.

As far as Klay, he's a consensus top 3 SG. I wish dubs players would stop with the trash talk and the stroking of their own ego's. The Dubs are one of the greatest teams of all time. No need to become arrogant jerks in the process.

You're mistaking arrogance for confidence. You don't get to where these guys are without believing you're the best.

Klay probably believes he's the greatest player ever.

Scoots
12-29-2015, 11:07 AM
You're mistaking arrogance for confidence. You don't get to where these guys are without believing you're the best.

Klay probably believes he's the greatest player ever.

Klay has no problem praising teammates ... I think he's just confident and the question he answered is a trap question. If he answers the way he did then we get this debate, if he answers anyone else then there is a debate about his confidence and his work ethic.

To those debating based on Klay's position within the Warriors team ... Houston and Chicago are lead by their shooting guards and both teams are suffering from lack of leadership. Just because they are leading doesn't mean they are any good at it. The Warriors are lead by Draymond Green, but that doesn't make people think less of Steph Curry.

On Klay being helped by his team being great. It's MUCH harder to be great on a great team than it is to be great on a bad team.

Klay still has plenty to work on, but right now with Harden and Butler acting out in their respective teams and Klay getting better as he gets healthy for the first time this year ... I'm going to stick with Klay ... though by a small margin.

mngopher35
12-29-2015, 11:58 AM
Klay is not exactly average on offense.

True, I think I had Scoots number system still in my head haha. Klay is more than above average but the point is that elite offense is huge when ranking players. You can look at a good offensive player and elite defender (mourning) widely considered worse than an elite offensive player with average-below defense (Dirk) even from a big man spot. Klay is obviously very good on both ends but his offense doesn't match Harden (same efficiency this year but lower volume and easier situation as pointed out in earlier post, last year gap was wider). Defensively he is good but he isn't an elite top 10 player on either end which is why most won't have him as the top sg (Butler is that for defense, Harden for offense).

Not trying to bash on Klay but if he wants an honest opinion from most people he isn't the best SG. He still is in the conversation and should 100% believe he is the best though, no issues with that from me. Harden/Butler are just a little bit better for various reasons, but Klay is good/close enough where his skillset might make him the choice for some teams (example Warriors are better with Klay than Harden IMO).

Scoots
12-29-2015, 01:48 PM
True, I think I had Scoots number system still in my head haha.

LOL, Oh GOD please don't do that to me :)

MonroeFAN
12-29-2015, 02:10 PM
A few thoughts while reading this topic.

1. I believe Klay is best 2 guard in the league, with Butler being 2nd and Harden 3rd.
2. Holy crap Heat fans are delusional.

Scoots
12-29-2015, 02:16 PM
A few thoughts while reading this topic.

1. I believe Klay is best 2 guard in the league, with Butler being 2nd and Harden 3rd.
2. Holy crap Heat fans are delusional.

Hehe ... this.

I HOPE Heat fans are not delusional and are just joking with us. At least since he announced his retirement the Lakers fans have become a bit more realistic.

FlashBolt
12-29-2015, 02:51 PM
Remember when MJ was the best SG? lol

Gander13SM
12-29-2015, 03:53 PM
Remember when MJ was the best SG? lol

No. I think you'll find that was The Rock. At least that's what a Warriors fan once told me.

t_money25
12-29-2015, 04:58 PM
Well Kobe and Wade are finished so I don't see why not. Butler MAY have something to say but the jury's still out...

I wouldn't say Wade is finished at all. If they both were steaks, I'd say this;

Wade is medium rare, Kobe is well done.

G_S_W
12-29-2015, 05:07 PM
I wouldn't say Wade is finished at all. If they both were steaks, I'd say this;

Wade is medium rare, Kobe is well done.

Kobe is just done, period.

mngopher35
12-29-2015, 05:20 PM
I have been looking into Klay statistically a bit more today to see if I have been missing something when I watch but I just don't see him with Harden/Butler. Offensively he is great as a shooter but so much of his offense seems to come from (or made easier) due to his teammates.

Again 57% of his shots are with defenders 4+ ft away (considered open). Harden and Butler are both under 43% of their shots being open and for everyone involved this is easily a more efficient shot (EFG% would be a little above .52 for Klay when covered while over .60 when open). This is because Thompson is not the main focus of the defense while the other two generally are (and neither have Curry/Green creating for them in nearly the same manner).

He shoots 64.5% of his shots without being forced to put the ball on the floor while neither of the other two are over 37%. Part of this is his style no doubt, but another reason is that he isn't asked to create like the other two which is much more difficult to do than just taking the open looks created by others. When Klay has 1+ dribble his EFG% drops big time, around .500. Same goes for number of seconds with the ball but that seems similar to the # of dribbles to me. Klay gets the benefit of all of these scenarios due to Curry and his role compared to the other two top SG's. They are the one's forced to create for their teams which is much more challenging and can affect one's efficiency (as can being the main focus of the defense).

Also earlier today Monroefan posted something in another thread with how some of the teammates of top players have shooting efficiency changes when they are on/off. Klay has his TS% drop 24.9 when Curry is off the court (from .62% to .38%). This seems to fall right in line with what I would expect to happen from someone who is dependent on his teammates/role for his offense more so than creating for himself.

Anyone want to discuss this and tell me what it is I haven't seen or give another view of the stats? I mean if he were leading in other advanced statistics this wouldn't be such an issue but right now he also has the lowest PER of the three (over 7 points below Harden, big gap), The lowest WS/48 and the lowest BPM of the three (easily) as well. On top of this he isn't even the best defender of the bunch either, that's Butler. His offensive efficiency is about the same as the other two despite clearly being in a much better situation to get easy looks and not having the same volume or responsibilities. I mean Klay is definitely a good player I just think it is pretty tough to argue him over the other two unless it is based on specific fit for certain teams. Would love to see a thought out post on why he should be at the top from someone with that opinion (hopefully also cover some of the points I mentioned).

WaDe03
12-29-2015, 05:32 PM
I would like to apologize to everyone on behalf of all Heat fans who still think our 34 year old shooting guard averaging 19-4-5 and leading this team who is 2 games back from the first seed is still elite. We would be the first seed had we not given away games against the Timberwolves, Pistons, and Nets but **** happens unless you're the Warriors.

Also correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Wade creates most of his points for himself unlike someone like Klay who in my opinion is a great guy for a team who has a guy like curry. Not trying to bash Klay he plays his role great and I would personally love to have him because we're in great need of shooting but as others have said he can't create for himself the way Wade Harden and Butler can. I would also take Wade to close out a game in the 4th over any of them.

tredigs
12-29-2015, 05:50 PM
I wouldn't say Wade is finished at all. If they both were steaks, I'd say this;

Wade is medium rare, Kobe is well done.

Medium rare for Wade? Lol. Either you hate medium rare or you don't know what you're talking about. He's a 34 year old shooting guard who's lost 3 steps and has no range. He's playing fine but like Kobe, his best days are well behind him.

Vee-Rex
12-29-2015, 05:52 PM
I have been looking into Klay statistically a bit more today to see if I have been missing something when I watch but I just don't see him with Harden/Butler. Offensively he is great as a shooter but so much of his offense seems to come from (or made easier) due to his teammates.

Again 57% of his shots are with defenders 4+ ft away (considered open). Harden and Butler are both under 43% of their shots being open and for everyone involved this is easily a more efficient shot (EFG% would be a little above .52 for Klay when covered while over .60 when open). This is because Thompson is not the main focus of the defense while the other two generally are (and neither have Curry/Green creating for them in nearly the same manner).

He shoots 64.5% of his shots without being forced to put the ball on the floor while neither of the other two are over 37%. Part of this is his style no doubt, but another reason is that he isn't asked to create like the other two which is much more difficult to do than just taking the open looks created by others. When Klay has 1+ dribble his EFG% drops big time, around .500. Same goes for number of seconds with the ball but that seems similar to the # of dribbles to me. Klay gets the benefit of all of these scenarios due to Curry and his role compared to the other two top SG's. They are the one's forced to create for their teams which is much more challenging and can affect one's efficiency (as can being the main focus of the defense).

Also earlier today Monroefan posted something in another thread with how some of the teammates of top players have shooting efficiency changes when they are on/off. Klay has his TS% drop 24.9 when Curry is off the court (from .62% to .38%). This seems to fall right in line with what I would expect to happen from someone who is dependent on his teammates/role for his offense more so than creating for himself.

Anyone want to discuss this and tell me what it is I haven't seen or give another view of the stats? I mean if he were leading in other advanced statistics this wouldn't be such an issue but right now he also has the lowest PER of the three (over 7 points below Harden, big gap), The lowest WS/48 and the lowest BPM of the three (easily) as well. On top of this he isn't even the best defender of the bunch either, that's Butler. His offensive efficiency is about the same as the other two despite clearly being in a much better situation to get easy looks and not having the same volume or responsibilities. I mean Klay is definitely a good player I just think it is pretty tough to argue him over the other two unless it is based on specific fit for certain teams. Would love to see a thought out post on why he should be at the top from someone with that opinion (hopefully also cover some of the points I mentioned).

I think you're killing it with your posts, dude.

I mean, whether or not Klay can maintain his production as the lead man on his team is speculative. The fact that he isn't has to account for something.

Curry is a freaking juggernaut when it comes to his impact (shown through stats by Tredigs), as well as through simple eye tests. Klay struggles to create for himself more often than not, and the pressure of being THE MAN would certainly lead him to take worse shots and have lower efficiency.

With all that said, I still place Klay at 2 or 3 in the top SG list. I like Butler and then Klay/Harden is a wash, even though I believe Harden would dominate as a number 2 option. His defense (or lack thereof) is hurting him badly.

tredigs
12-29-2015, 05:53 PM
I would like to apologize to everyone on behalf of all Heat fans who still think our 34 year old shooting guard averaging 19-4-5 and leading this team who is 2 games back from the first seed is still elite. We would be the first seed had we not given away games against the Timberwolves, Pistons, and Nets but **** happens unless you're the Warriors.

Also correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Wade creates most of his points for himself unlike someone like Klay who in my opinion is a great guy for a team who has a guy like curry. Not trying to bash Klay he plays his role great and I would personally love to have him because we're in great need of shooting but as others have said he can't create for himself the way Wade Harden and Butler can. I would also take Wade to close out a game in the 4th over any of them.
51.8% TS. A slow/weak defender. Ranks 19th among shooting guards in RPM. He's a shell of himself. And that team is going nowhere. They have a +1.8 win margin. At 18-12, they're due for regression, not the 1 seed.

tredigs
12-29-2015, 06:12 PM
Harden and Jimmy Butler are both definitely better than Klay by the way. Klay's HOT is > just about everyone in the league, but he does not get there very often, and he's not the kind of player that would dominate as a star talent on a lesser team. He's a really good player for the Warriors to have (I actually would not trade him for Harden or Butler straight up), but he's probably not as good as his reputation dictates. The fact that he's considered a star defender by many is probably the biggest misnomer. Klay's not 1/2 the defender Iguodala or Draymond are, and in reality he's not as smart or good on that end as Curry either. His frame allows him to guard more opponents, but he still needs a lot of work on that end. Love Klay, but I've felt pretty consistent with the fact that he's an overrated talent.

WaDe03
12-29-2015, 06:14 PM
51.8% TS. A slow/weak defender. Ranks 19th among shooting guards in RPM. He's a shell of himself. And that team is going nowhere. They have a +1.8 win margin. At 18-12, they're due for regression, not the 1 seed.

He definitely is a shell of himself. He's nowhere near as good as he was in his prime and is still competing with guys like Harden Butler and Klay. It too early to say we're going nowhere if we get a shooter or 2 it could take this team to another level so that's on Riley at the trade deadline. We've definitely given up a few we should've won. Our January schedule is a ***** so you're probably also right about the regression but I think they'll pick it back up and end the season strong. Our bench went to **** when Johnson and McRoberts went out so that also doesn't help either.

Vee-Rex
12-29-2015, 06:15 PM
He's a really good player for the Warriors to have (I actually would not trade him for Harden or Butler straight up),

Fit is definitely key. I would not trade Klay for Harden/Butler if I was the Warriors GM either.

tredigs
12-29-2015, 06:22 PM
He definitely is a shell of himself. He's nowhere near as good as he was in his prime and is still competing with guys like Harden Butler and Klay. It too early to say we're going nowhere if we get a shooter or 2 it could take this team to another level so that's on Riley at the trade deadline. We've definitely given up a few we should've won. Our January schedule is a ***** so you're probably also right about the regression but I think they'll pick it back up and end the season strong. Our bench went to **** when Johnson and McRoberts went out so that also doesn't help either.

To me it feels like the Heat have a team that is less than the sum of their parts right now. I've watched a handful of games and it's strange to me how uncomfortable Dragic is. If he wakes up and produces like I've seen him produce in the past (these should be his peak years so it's not a stretch), that will ignite this team. But if that does not happen, I can't see them contending. The Whiteside factor is still kind of an enigma to me too. I'm not a fan of him personally and I'd look to trade him for a better fit, but clearly most Miami fans feel otherwise.

mngopher35
12-29-2015, 06:24 PM
Harden and Jimmy Butler are both definitely better than Klay by the way. Klay's HOT is > just about everyone in the league, but he does not get there very often, and he's not the kind of player that would dominate as a star talent on a lesser team. He's a really good player for the Warriors to have (I actually would not trade him for Harden or Butler straight up), but he's probably not as good as his reputation dictates. The fact that he's considered a star defender by many is probably the biggest misnomer. Klay's not 1/2 the defender Iguodala or Draymond are, and in reality he's not as smart or good on that end as Curry either. His frame allows him to guard more opponents, but he still needs a lot of work on that end. Love Klay, but I've felt pretty consistent with the fact that he's an overrated talent.

I agree with basically everything you said. I am a little surprised by the Curry/Klay defense remark though, that was the only thing that I wouldn't have said (Iggy/Draymond easily with you on that). I have noticed better instincts and feel from Curry but overall thought Klay was still likely better.

WaDe03
12-29-2015, 06:37 PM
To me it feels like the Heat have a team that is less than the sum of their parts right now. I've watched a handful of games and it's strange to me how uncomfortable Dragic is. If he wakes up and produces like I've seen him produce in the past (these should be his peak years so it's not a stretch), that will ignite this team. But if that does not happen, I can't see them contending. The Whiteside factor is still kind of an enigma to me too. I'm not a fan of him personally and I'd look to trade him for a better fit, but clearly most Miami fans feel otherwise.

Dragic has picked it up recently but he's playing through injury so starting to slow down again. I'm all for trading Whiteside if the trade is going to help us. The one thing you never know with this team is what team you are going to get. Our game last night showed it best. Get up by 16 in the first half go to halftime with things looking great, Wade and Bosh both shooting 100% then come out the third and don't put the ball in Wades hands literally at all give up our lead, bad coaching keeps Wade and Bosh out too long in the 4th and we lose to a ****** team (no offense to their fans).

Gander13SM
12-29-2015, 06:46 PM
The people saying Klay is only playing at this level because of Curry better not be the same people that were saying Curry didn't deserve MVP over Harden because he has a better team.

Because that would just be horrible hypocrisy.

tredigs
12-29-2015, 06:50 PM
I agree with basically everything you said. I am a little surprised by the Curry/Klay defense remark though, that was the only thing that I wouldn't have said (Iggy/Draymond easily with you on that). I have noticed better instincts and feel from Curry but overall thought Klay was still likely better.

Klay's capable of guarding more players on D so by default he's probably more important on that end, but I still see a lot of mistakes from him. He has length and stays engaged, but you rarely see Klay actually making meaningful plays defensively. Curry's a lot more apt to take advantage of situations (something like a big getting caught on the dribble on the perimeter) and create a turnover. Klay will just play the game straight up. Which is fine. I'd consider him an OK defender who is very good in certain situations, but not "All NBA" caliber that some seem to consider him. For what it's worth, he has a worse defensive rating than the Warriors average nearly every season (including this one), and has never posted a +defensive BPM. Also rates as a negative in defensive RPM.

Saddletramp
12-29-2015, 07:51 PM
The people saying Klay is only playing at this level because of Curry better not be the same people that were saying Curry didn't deserve MVP over Harden because he has a better team.

Because that would just be horrible hypocrisy.

Maybe I'm missing something with your statement but either you don't know what hypocrisy means or I don't. A rising tide floats all boats and it's harder to set sail in shallow waters.

(And I'm past the point of caring about last year's MVP race.)

MonroeFAN
12-29-2015, 09:03 PM
I would like to apologize to everyone on behalf of all Heat fans who still think our 34 year old shooting guard averaging 19-4-5 and leading this team who is 2 games back from the first seed is still elite. We would be the first seed had we not given away games against the Timberwolves, Pistons, and Nets but **** happens unless you're the Warriors.

Also correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Wade creates most of his points for himself unlike someone like Klay who in my opinion is a great guy for a team who has a guy like curry. Not trying to bash Klay he plays his role great and I would personally love to have him because we're in great need of shooting but as others have said he can't create for himself the way Wade Harden and Butler can. I would also take Wade to close out a game in the 4th over any of them.

You gave us two wins. We had nothing to do with it and you don't sound ridiculous.

Thanks. You guys have definitely over achieved this season, not under.

Gander13SM
12-29-2015, 09:43 PM
Maybe I'm missing something with your statement but either you don't know what hypocrisy means or I don't. A rising tide floats all boats and it's harder to set sail in shallow waters.

(And I'm past the point of caring about last year's MVP race.)

People still use that argument now so I don't really care about last mvp either. Especially now that it's clear the two are on completely different tiers.

Anyway. My point is, you can't say Klay is only this good because he plays next to Steph and at the same time say Steph isn't that great because he has a brilliant team.

If Klay isn't that great without Steph then Steph's supporting cast isn't that great, he makes them great. Which is what truly defines the great ones imo.

Saddletramp
12-29-2015, 11:03 PM
People still use that argument now so I don't really care about last mvp either. Especially now that it's clear the two are on completely different tiers.

Anyway. My point is, you can't say Klay is only this good because he plays next to Steph and at the same time say Steph isn't that great because he has a brilliant team.

If Klay isn't that great without Steph then Steph's supporting cast isn't that great, he makes them great. Which is what truly defines the great ones imo.

First off, nobody is saying that Klay isn't great; they are just debating if he is best in the league at his position. That team has many great players and Steph does make that team greater as a whole than if he wasn't on the team. It's not hypocritical to suggest a team that's already great doesn't benefit from a guy on an all time streak. It's not like Klay is interchangeable with Brandon Rush or anything. If anything, all players are benefiting from the system, Curry just at a higher rate (and no, I'm not knocking Curry but if he were traded today to the Jazz for whatever, would he be doing what he's doing? Would those Warriors guys be 12-16 in their next games and the Jazz be 28-1 in their next games?) It's the team that's amazing, and they happen to be led by a guy that's also amazing. Both can happen simultaneously.


I made this comment in some other thread last year: Without Harden, the Rockets wouldn't have made the playoffs considering their injuries and lack of depth (4 guys were traded for Lawson this offseason and all were cut before the beginning of the year on a non-playoff team) while without Curry, the Warriors still would have made the playoffs (probably a low seed). That team minus Curry was better than the Thunder minus Durant last year, and that's all they'd have to beat out (I assume they'd have taken the sixth seed).

TL;DR. It's not hypocritical to think that Steph is great and makes his team better while also having a great team to begin with.

mngopher35
12-29-2015, 11:28 PM
Klay's capable of guarding more players on D so by default he's probably more important on that end, but I still see a lot of mistakes from him. He has length and stays engaged, but you rarely see Klay actually making meaningful plays defensively. Curry's a lot more apt to take advantage of situations (something like a big getting caught on the dribble on the perimeter) and create a turnover. Klay will just play the game straight up. Which is fine. I'd consider him an OK defender who is very good in certain situations, but not "All NBA" caliber that some seem to consider him. For what it's worth, he has a worse defensive rating than the Warriors average nearly every season (including this one), and has never posted a +defensive BPM. Also rates as a negative in defensive RPM.

Although I only posted some stats on his shooting I did look through many more and was surprised by some defensive stats which was the main reason I asked. I have considered him at least above average probably and agree a lot of it is that he is always engaged and has the physical attributes needed. I know they stopped switching Klay onto the tough opponent while giving Curry a break (for the most part at least, used to happen frequently when I watched) but I guess I never thought too much into comparing their defenses and just always assumed he was still better. It is definitely something I will be watching a bit closer the rest of the year to really gauge where their defense is at.

I remember earlier this year watching Curry make a nice steal and then on the next trip down he couldn't fight through a screen and it reminded me so much of rubio haha. I am a fan of Rubio's defense (when healthy and engaged) and a lot of that is similar to what you mention with Curry about just anticipating or understanding situations. If he is around Rubio's impact on that end then I think I have been underrating him.

Saddletramp
12-29-2015, 11:58 PM
Btw gopher and digs, good stuff. Great posts and takes in this thread.

mngopher35
12-30-2015, 12:09 AM
I think you're killing it with your posts, dude.

I mean, whether or not Klay can maintain his production as the lead man on his team is speculative. The fact that he isn't has to account for something.

Curry is a freaking juggernaut when it comes to his impact (shown through stats by Tredigs), as well as through simple eye tests. Klay struggles to create for himself more often than not, and the pressure of being THE MAN would certainly lead him to take worse shots and have lower efficiency.

With all that said, I still place Klay at 2 or 3 in the top SG list. I like Butler and then Klay/Harden is a wash, even though I believe Harden would dominate as a number 2 option. His defense (or lack thereof) is hurting him badly.

Thanks, I just don't think Klay is quite on their level yet and believe that those stats help show why. It just seems weird to me how many are ignoring the difference in roles and even production just due to a gap in defense when that isn't where either flourish (I know his style isn't fun/popular). If people had been judging Magic/Dirk in the same ways they wouldn't be anywhere near where they are in comparisons because plenty of good offensive players have better defense. Great offense is just so much more important. I do understand that Harden isn't good defensively but he is such a big positive on offense that it really doesn't matter in this comparison because the offensive gap will be bigger.

If we want to go outside of just this season to rank it was clearly Harden over Klay before this year. Overall Statistically this year it is pretty clearly Harden. Offensively it is clearly Harden this year as well (far more production, similar efficiency). Considering their roles it clearly gives Harden the edge (attention and responsibility). If we look at rebounding it is Harden again. If we look at defense we have a poor defender who needs to be hidden and a + defender who is good but doesn't change the game much on that end. I would rather have a top 10 offensive game changer than a good offensive player and plus defender any day. Basically we want to say the entire advantage Harden has over Klay in everything I named (previous play, elite offense, attention/responsibility, rebounding, stats) is negated because one is a poor defender while the other is a plus defender (again not game changing though).

The only way this changes for me is if those specific skills Klay is better at are what I need for my team (shooting and defense). Klay is a great/better fit for the Warriors but Harden is the better player.

Vee-Rex
12-30-2015, 12:24 PM
Thanks, I just don't think Klay is quite on their level yet and believe that those stats help show why. It just seems weird to me how many are ignoring the difference in roles and even production just due to a gap in defense when that isn't where either flourish (I know his style isn't fun/popular). If people had been judging Magic/Dirk in the same ways they wouldn't be anywhere near where they are in comparisons because plenty of good offensive players have better defense. Great offense is just so much more important. I do understand that Harden isn't good defensively but he is such a big positive on offense that it really doesn't matter in this comparison because the offensive gap will be bigger.

If we want to go outside of just this season to rank it was clearly Harden over Klay before this year. Overall Statistically this year it is pretty clearly Harden. Offensively it is clearly Harden this year as well (far more production, similar efficiency). Considering their roles it clearly gives Harden the edge (attention and responsibility). If we look at rebounding it is Harden again. If we look at defense we have a poor defender who needs to be hidden and a + defender who is good but doesn't change the game much on that end. I would rather have a top 10 offensive game changer than a good offensive player and plus defender any day. Basically we want to say the entire advantage Harden has over Klay in everything I named (previous play, elite offense, attention/responsibility, rebounding, stats) is negated because one is a poor defender while the other is a plus defender (again not game changing though).

The only way this changes for me is if those specific skills Klay is better at are what I need for my team (shooting and defense). Klay is a great/better fit for the Warriors but Harden is the better player.

I think that's a really fair assessment.

However, I feel that the fact that Harden's strength/saving grace is his offensive prowess also leaves him little wiggle room if he's performing badly on that end. You say that great offense is so much more important (and I agree), but that also has to factor in when Harden has a bad offensive game. If Klay or Butler have a bad shooting night they (especially Butler) can impact the game on the opposite end. If Harden goes 6/18... he's much much worse overall (despite being a decent passer and rebounder) because his offense is really the only thing we can rely on for him.

This year Harden's efficiency is at career lows since his rookie season. So while I think you make a sound argument, I do think it's fair mentioning that we should also consider how simply being one-dimensional (from an offensive/defensive standpoint) hurts Harden. If offense is pretty much all he got and he's shooting 41% then that's really not good. We're 40% through the year so there's still time for him to improve on it, though.

valade16
12-30-2015, 12:39 PM
TL;DR. It's not hypocritical to think that Steph is great and makes his team better while also having a great team to begin with.

You can't go 28-1 without having both a great supporting cast and a great superstar who makes them better. Agreed.

t_money25
12-30-2015, 01:08 PM
Medium rare for Wade? Lol. Either you hate medium rare or you don't know what you're talking about. He's a 34 year old shooting guard who's lost 3 steps and has no range. He's playing fine but like Kobe, his best days are well behind him.

Personally, I like all my dishes well done but to say Wade has lost 3 steps and has no range shows you don't know what your talking about. I agree he's not the player he used to be but Wade has never been a long range guy. He's always been a mid range slasher that plays above the rim. Wade is still very effective and can create his own shot. I was comparing his decline to Kobe's.

mngopher35
12-30-2015, 02:59 PM
I think that's a really fair assessment.

However, I feel that the fact that Harden's strength/saving grace is his offensive prowess also leaves him little wiggle room if he's performing badly on that end. You say that great offense is so much more important (and I agree), but that also has to factor in when Harden has a bad offensive game. If Klay or Butler have a bad shooting night they (especially Butler) can impact the game on the opposite end. If Harden goes 6/18... he's much much worse overall (despite being a decent passer and rebounder) because his offense is really the only thing we can rely on for him.

If we look at how many times each player has not scored 20 pts or gotten 6+ assists this season it is 2 games for Harden and 16 games for Klay (Harden has game score under 15 8 times of 33 games this year to Klays 18 of 28). To me that should ease your worry about "what if they aren't producing on offense" because for Klay that happens much more often. Sure that is partially because of his superior team and not being a creator but that is exactly what Klay needs around him and the type of role he needs to be at the same efficiency level. Overall this season (due to that difference and minutes) Harden has produced 44.94 points per game via assists/scoring while Klay is at 24.96 (on similar overall efficiency). Again if you are at all worried one won't be showing up as much offensively it easily has to be Klay. He has more fluctuation in his play based on if he is hot or cold so more up and down (although I will say this also makes him most likely to go off for periods).


This year Harden's efficiency is at career lows since his rookie season. So while I think you make a sound argument, I do think it's fair mentioning that we should also consider how simply being one-dimensional (from an offensive/defensive standpoint) hurts Harden. If offense is pretty much all he got and he's shooting 41% then that's really not good. We're 40% through the year so there's still time for him to improve on it, though.

I agree his efficiency is down this year but he is still just 2% TS below Klay and one point off in offensive rating. As mentioned earlier when 17% more of your shots are open and about 40% more come on catch and shoot/not needing to dribble to create you should have better efficiency (honestly the gap should be bigger given context). Not to mention that Harden almost always gets the best defender and the defenses attention while that is Curry's role for the Warriors. On top of this the last couple of years Harden was easily more efficient offensively and has gotten better since the start of the year (first 12 games it was 37% fg%, 44% since). So the efficiency of a 12 game stretch or so isn't enough to change my mind on these guys, especially if we actually consider circumstances and past play.

Again I just don't see a good argument for Klay to be put with Harden when everything is considered. Offense, Rebounding, Stats, role/responsibility all favor him and it is easily arguable that the offensive difference is bigger than the defensive one statistically without the context even added (as shown by the advanced stats advantage).

tredigs
12-30-2015, 03:18 PM
Personally, I like all my dishes well done but to say Wade has lost 3 steps and has no range shows you don't know what your talking about. I agree he's not the player he used to be but Wade has never been a long range guy. He's always been a mid range slasher that plays above the rim. Wade is still very effective and can create his own shot. I was comparing his decline to Kobe's.

Exactly. And you're saying that Wade is still a mid-range slasher who plays above the rim? He's at a career low shooting volume on a career low efficiency, and taking a lower % of shots at the rim than any other season outside of last season. He's also no longer a force defensively, and overall is just not a dominant player. I like Wade and he's still "good", yes, but definitely not among the elite.

Wade is medium-well, not medium-rare, is the point. Saying he's at stage 2 of a 5 stage career, is obviously ridiculous.


As an aside, if you're cooking good steak well done, we really have nothing else to talk about here. :laugh:

lol, please
12-31-2015, 05:37 PM
The people saying Klay is only playing at this level because of Curry better not be the same people that were saying Curry didn't deserve MVP over Harden because he has a better team.

Because that would just be horrible hypocrisy.

Well said.

Saddletramp
12-31-2015, 05:43 PM
Well said.

Then I debunked that thought and since he never responded, I assume he conceded that he was wrong.

So no, it was not "well said".

zn23
12-31-2015, 05:45 PM
no

lol, please
12-31-2015, 05:48 PM
Then I debunked that thought and since he never responded, I assume he conceded that he was wrong.

So no, it was not "well said".

I don't see where you debunked his thought, honestly. Curry makes players around him better, And being the best player on his team, Klay doesn't need to be the 1st option. I fail to see how this is a knock on Klay, and I've never been a fan of the thought process "X player isn't the #1 option on his team, that means he can't carry that load until we see him do it."

Saddletramp
12-31-2015, 05:54 PM
I don't see where you debunked his thought, honestly. Curry makes players around him better, And being the best player on his team, Klay doesn't need to be the 1st option. I fail to see how this is a knock on Klay, and I've never been a fan of the thought process "X player isn't the #1 option on his team, that means he can't carry that load until we see him do it."

Re-read my post. Or, if you'd like, I can copy and paste it.

Gander13SM
12-31-2015, 05:59 PM
Then I debunked that thought and since he never responded, I assume he conceded that he was wrong.

So no, it was not "well said".

Your reputation precedes you. Couldn't be bothered getting into a back and forth when you're clearly never going to change your mind on the matter. What's the point?

To clarify. I think you're full of crap.

Either Klay is a stud or he's not. If he's not, you can't then act like Steph is lucky because he has an elite supporting cast. If he is, you can't say he wouldn't be a solid number one option.

Personally I think Steph makes all of these guys better. Much better. Way more than Harden does for anyone he's ever played with in his entire career. And I think people overlook that because they assume all of these guys are as good with Steph as they would be without.


The only player in this league that makes his team mates better on the same level as Steph does is LeBron.

Saddletramp
12-31-2015, 06:40 PM
Your reputation precedes you. Couldn't be bothered getting into a back and forth when you're clearly never going to change your mind on the matter. What's the point?

If you were right and/or presented an actual case for being right, I'd change my mind. But you are wrong and didn't present a case to change my mind.


To clarify. I think you're full of crap.

Mirrored.


Either Klay is a stud or he's not. If he's not, you can't then act like Steph is lucky because he has an elite supporting cast. If he is, you can't say he wouldn't be a solid number one option.

He is a stud, but he's not the biggest sg stud in the league in many people's opinions. How is this hard to comprehend? Curry can be a stud on a stacked team. Both can happen. You think it's either/or.


Personally I think Steph makes all of these guys better. Much better. Way more than Harden does for anyone he's ever played with in his entire career. And I think people overlook that because they assume all of these guys are as good with Steph as they would be without.


The only player in this league that makes his team mates better on the same level as Steph does is LeBron.

Steph makes his teammates better but I think the system that Kerr implemented is the main X factor here (LeBron is the main X factor when it concerns LeBron making his team better). Klay is a solid sg that is one of the best shooters of all time (top ten? top 100? Whatever, I'm not getting into that, but he's an amazing shooter) and compliments that team well. I don't know how you can't think 1 guy that's on a stacked team can't still be just that good.

CHANGO
12-31-2015, 07:16 PM
The people saying Klay is only playing at this level because of Curry better not be the same people that were saying Curry didn't deserve MVP over Harden because he has a better team.

Because that would just be horrible hypocrisy.

No, isn't called hypocrisy it's called playing on a great team with a great system. Klay is beneficiating from playing alongside Curry, Green, Iggy, etc... And of course, Curry is beneficiating from playing alongside Klay, Green, Iggy, etc... And all of them are beneficiating from playing in the Warriors under Kerr system. I don't think it's that hard to comprehend.

Klay without Curry wouldn't be this good.
Curry without Klay (IMO) wouldn't be that good.

It's all part of a correlation.

Gander13SM
12-31-2015, 07:19 PM
"Curry without Klay (IMO) wouldn't be that good."

You, like Saddle, are entitled to your opinion.

Just know that it's wrong.

CHANGO
12-31-2015, 07:24 PM
"Curry without Klay (IMO) wouldn't be that good."

You, like Saddle, are entitled to your opinion.

Just know that it's wrong.

That's my opinion. You are so defensive, I proved you wrong and you completely shifted the topic to another thing I said. Well. GREAT POST!

Saddletramp
12-31-2015, 07:44 PM
"Curry without Klay (IMO) wouldn't be that good."

You, like Saddle, are entitled to your opinion.

Just know that it's wrong.

Nobody else has come to your defense besides lol,please. Let that sink in.

Gander13SM
12-31-2015, 07:50 PM
Nobody else has come to your defense besides lol,please. Let that sink in.

Since when did aligning with the majority make you right?

Great minds don't think alike they think differently. That's why popular opinions ain't **** to me.

Saddletramp
12-31-2015, 07:54 PM
Since when did aligning with the majority make you right?

Great minds don't think alike they think differently. That's why popular opinions ain't **** to me.

In this case, you're wrong. It's not subjective. Majority or not, popular or not, Curry is a great player that benefits from great team mates and a great system and his team mates benefit from his playing on the team.

Happy New Years.

Bostonjorge
01-01-2016, 12:31 AM
Klay proving he can be a first option and not just a D and 3 guy. Green also showing he's a superstar. I thought it was the curry offense but it's the green offense.

CHANGO
01-01-2016, 01:48 AM
Klay proving he can be a first option and not just a D and 3 guy. Green also showing he's a superstar. I thought it was the curry offense but it's the green offense.

YEP! Totally! In the game against Dallas he proved that too, right? Two game sample FTW!

More-Than-Most
01-01-2016, 02:07 AM
Just goes to show how ****ing talented their team is from top to bottom... By far the most talented team since the bulls.

Saddletramp
01-01-2016, 03:26 AM
Klay proving he can be a first option and not just a D and 3 guy. Green also showing he's a superstar. I thought it was the curry offense but it's the green offense.

It's not Curry's or Green's or Klay's offense. It's Kerr and Company's offense. Don't get me wrong, I don't think just anybody would flourish in that system, but the players they have are perfect with the system that's in place. Kudos to them. They went from a middle of the pack team to champions and there's lots of reasons.

lol, please
01-01-2016, 09:43 PM
Klay proving he can be a first option and not just a D and 3 guy. Green also showing he's a superstar. I thought it was the curry offense but it's the green offense.

Klay proved he can be the first option last night, that's for sure.

Scoots
01-02-2016, 04:38 AM
No, isn't called hypocrisy it's called playing on a great team with a great system. Klay is beneficiating from playing alongside Curry, Green, Iggy, etc... And of course, Curry is beneficiating from playing alongside Klay, Green, Iggy, etc... And all of them are beneficiating from playing in the Warriors under Kerr system. I don't think it's that hard to comprehend.

Klay without Curry wouldn't be this good.
Curry without Klay (IMO) wouldn't be that good.

It's all part of a correlation.
Don't go making reasonable and logical arguments here. Here you must be dogmatic, pigheaded, and rude.

I think Thompson is underrated because Curry's spotlight is so bright. The warriors have 3 great players and a bunch of perfect role players that make everything possible. Until it happens you cant separate the players and the system.

lol, please
01-02-2016, 06:12 PM
Don't go making reasonable and logical arguments here. Here you must be dogmatic, pigheaded, and rude.

I think Thompson is underrated because Curry's spotlight is so bright. The warriors have 3 great players and a bunch of perfect role players that make everything possible. Until it happens you cant separate the players and the system.

Hopefully they never do get separated though.

Stunner
01-03-2016, 08:43 PM
http://youtu.be/mYANNhwbkBA

lol, please
02-24-2016, 11:54 PM
http://youtu.be/mYANNhwbkBA

I'd take Klay over Butler with a gun to my head.

Rain City
02-25-2016, 12:42 AM
I've been saying klay is best sg in the league for over a yr, although it was premature, it was in the making and now it is truth.

mngopher35
02-25-2016, 12:55 AM
Not sure what has changed to make that truth now? Over the past couple years he has been the 3rd best sg behind Butler/Harden.

Scoots
02-25-2016, 12:59 AM
Not sure what has changed to make that truth now? Over the past couple years he has been the 3rd best sg behind Butler/Harden.

I'm not saying you are wrong but what makes your declaration any more true than others?

To my uneducated eye (I don't watch enough of the unwatchable Rockets games to have a fair opinion) it seems Thompson has progressed his game while Butler and Harden have not, and in the case of Harden his defense seems to have regressed significantly.

If I was picking for the Warriors it would be Klay no question.

Wiggins is certainly an interesting choice for the near future though.

mngopher35
02-25-2016, 01:07 AM
I'm not saying you are wrong but what makes your declaration any more true than others?

To my uneducated eye (I don't watch enough of the unwatchable Rockets games to have a fair opinion) it seems Thompson has progressed his game while Butler and Harden have not, and in the case of Harden his defense seems to have regressed significantly.

If I was picking for the Warriors it would be Klay no question.

Wiggins is certainly an interesting choice for the near future though.

Well I will gladly defend my opinion... Not sure what you mean. If you are talking about my comment he said he predicted it before and it is now truth but I just don't get why or what has changed?

Harden has regressed defensively overall but is getting a bit closer to last year as the season goes on as far as I can tell. Butler is still killing (probably better than last year) it just with an injured group and a new coach. I haven't really seen a major improvement from Klay honestly but I will check on the numbers for these guys shortly to ensure I'm not out of line since I don't watch every game.

Scoots
02-25-2016, 01:16 AM
Well I will gladly defend my opinion... Not sure what you mean. If you are talking about my comment he said he predicted it before and it is now truth but I just don't get why or what has changed?

Harden has regressed defensively overall but is getting a bit closer to last year as the season goes on as far as I can tell. Butler is still killing (probably better than last year) it just with an injured group and a new coach. I haven't really seen a major improvement from Klay honestly but I will check on the numbers for these guys shortly to ensure I'm not out of line since I don't watch every game.
My initial point was that you stated your ranking as fact not opinion.

mngopher35
02-25-2016, 01:32 AM
Alright to expand looking at PER, WS/48, BPM Klay has been 3rd in each of those categories both years and in the playoffs last year as well in comparison to these two. Despite being in the better situation playing off Curry/Green (as opposed to creating like the other two), he also had the lowest ortg between them every time as well. When it comes to RPM Klay is 7th among SG's this season while those two are 1 and 2. The year before they were both ahead of Klay in RPM as well.

So Butler is the better defender, has the advanced stats advantage pretty handily, and per 36minutes only scores 2 pts less while averaging 1.5 more assists. He also had the better playoffs as well imo (also backed with those stats). Harden produces at slightly better efficiency, has much more production and is an elite creator, has the advanced stats backing him up (both seasons and playoffs) while clearly being a worse defender. Klay hasn't changed much statistically (in multiple cases it's a bit down) and I haven't seen a ton to change my mind based off the eye test so again with everything going against him still what has changed?

mngopher35
02-25-2016, 01:35 AM
My initial point was that you stated your ranking as fact not opinion.

He is the one who claimed something as the truth. I asked him what has changed and stated my opinion that he has been and is still in 3rd. I backed up my stance and would like to see the other side now.

Scoots
02-25-2016, 01:43 AM
He is the one who claimed something as the truth. I asked him what has changed and stated my opinion that he has been and is still in 3rd. I backed up my stance and would like to see the other side now.

He stated something as fact. You stated something as fact. I was pointing out that you saying it doesn't make it any more true than when he said it. That was all.

You have now backed it up and said it was an opinion ... and an educated one at that.

mngopher35
02-25-2016, 01:57 AM
He stated something as fact. You stated something as fact. I was pointing out that you saying it doesn't make it any more true than when he said it. That was all.

You have now backed it up and said it was an opinion ... and an educated one at that.

Lol I hate semantics. I am curious what you expect when people do comparisons or lists here? Do we always need to claim that this is my opinion before saying anything? It is my opinion Jordan is best basketball player ever. Jordan is the best player in nba history. IMO Kobe should be top 10 all time. Kobe is higher than 12th all time. I guess technically speaking the second ones are stated as fact then? It happens all the time here though so I just don't see the issue unless we are going to start making sure everyone is clear what they say is opinion not fact (I have 0 issue with what that guy said either, I took it as his opinion and stated mine).Why not just assume when someone makes a statement they want a basketball discussion on that topic in an NBA forum?

nastynice
02-25-2016, 02:19 AM
Alright to expand looking at PER, WS/48, BPM Klay has been 3rd in each of those categories both years and in the playoffs last year as well in comparison to these two. Despite being in the better situation playing off Curry/Green (as opposed to creating like the other two), he also had the lowest ortg between them every time as well. When it comes to RPM Klay is 7th among SG's this season while those two are 1 and 2. The year before they were both ahead of Klay in RPM as well.

So Butler is the better defender, has the advanced stats advantage pretty handily, and per 36minutes only scores 2 pts less while averaging 1.5 more assists. He also had the better playoffs as well imo (also backed with those stats). Harden produces at slightly better efficiency, has much more production and is an elite creator, has the advanced stats backing him up (both seasons and playoffs) while clearly being a worse defender. Klay hasn't changed much statistically (in multiple cases it's a bit down) and I haven't seen a ton to change my mind based off the eye test so again with everything going against him still what has changed?

I'm not a stat guy, so forgive me if the stats u gave already covered this, but I wonder how his "efficiency" stats stack against those two? Because of course the other two will have more volume stats, as they are way more focal part of their offense?

I actually feel like Klay is 3rd behind those two as well. His post game has seemed to kind of regress, a year+ ago it looked like he was really starting to develop a nice post game, but now he rarely ever goes to it. Although he IS a much better slasher now.

mngopher35
02-25-2016, 02:34 AM
I'm not a stat guy, so forgive me if the stats u gave already covered this, but I wonder how his "efficiency" stats stack against those two? Because of course the other two will have more volume stats, as they are way more focal part of their offense?

I actually feel like Klay is 3rd behind those two as well. His post game has seemed to kind of regress, a year+ ago it looked like he was really starting to develop a nice post game, but now he rarely ever goes to it. Although he IS a much better slasher now.

ORTG is probably what I use to judge just the efficiency of players and Klay was actually behind both of them each year and even in the playoffs (orebounds, shooting efficiency, assists/turns all accounted for as a singular number). Chandler lead the league in this I believe so clearly not relying on volume (player efficiency rating or PER actually gives volume too much credit despite it's name, among other issues). When it comes to ORTG he was behind those other two but nothing I used showed just their scoring efficiency which would be his advantage if singled out.

When it comes to that Klay is the most efficient from the field (by like 6% with EFG% which is 2's and 3's) and when you also account for free throws with TS% he comes out similar to Harden this year and about 2% higher than Butler. So overall offensively I still would say he is not the most efficient due to all factors but he IS the most efficient scorer of the bunch (which I didn't cover since I was arguing the other way haha). I would like to point out that he has better opportunities playing for GS than the other two who have to create though. NBA.com would have some info but I would be surprised if Butler/Harden has as many open looks or shots off 0 dribbles (generally more efficient).

CHANGO
02-25-2016, 04:57 AM
First couple of pages I clearly stated how Klay wasn't the best SG between Butler, Harden and himself. Stats proved Butler was better in almost every other category except efficiency. Efficiency is meh when you consider he is getting wide open looks thanks to Curry, Dray, etc... That analysis was before Rose got injured and Butler had an amazing streak of games and took the reigns as the MAN.

Then Rose returned and Butler continued with his usual play. Then Butler goes down and... Five game losing streak for the Bulls and a record of 4-5 without Butler.

Klay isn't the best SG in the league, even with Harden having that great magic defense, he still better.

Saddletramp
02-25-2016, 07:56 PM
Another lol please reurrected thread where not much has changed.


Being the best compliment to an already stacked team is hardly what I'd call "best in the NBA at a postion." And Butler would probably be just as good as Klay on the Warriors.

Ball_Out
02-25-2016, 08:32 PM
Another lol please reurrected thread where not much has changed.


Being the best compliment to an already stacked team is hardly what I'd call "best in the NBA at a postion." And Butler would probably be just as good as Klay on the Warriors.

Butler would not be just as good as Klay if he were on the Warriors. He doesnt fit as well.

lol, please
05-01-2016, 11:20 PM
This was just a few months ago, but has anyone changed their mind? This was scoffed at a bit last year but I think Klay has been making a statement lately and this question warrants revisiting.

Sssmush
05-02-2016, 03:39 AM
Pretty obviously.

I have to think about it to even decide on a credible second place guy.

lol, please
05-02-2016, 08:43 PM
Pretty obviously.

I have to think about it to even decide on a credible second place guy.

How crazy is it then the poll results? This was literally this season.

I do think if Harden actually stepped up, instead of stepped down efficiency wise and defensively, this would be a much closer conversation though.

naps
05-03-2016, 05:12 AM
Better than James "charity stripe or nothing" Harden, no question about it whateoever.

Munkeysuit
05-03-2016, 06:53 AM
Dam...Klay Thompson is certainly feeling himself hahaha! I mean it's to be expected right? I am sure Jason Terry still thinks he's the best 2 guard, at this level you definitely need an edge to stay on top, but let's all be honest with ourselves here, Harden, Butler and DeRozan bring more to the table than Klay does and I'd pick them over Thompson any day of the week.

lol, please
05-10-2016, 07:22 PM
Dam...Klay Thompson is certainly feeling himself hahaha! I mean it's to be expected right? I am sure Jason Terry still thinks he's the best 2 guard, at this level you definitely need an edge to stay on top, but let's all be honest with ourselves here, Harden, Butler and DeRozan bring more to the table than Klay does and I'd pick them over Thompson any day of the week.

The man's game is insane. On any other team he's the first option.

Saddletramp
05-10-2016, 07:43 PM
The man's game is insane. On any other team he's the first option.

And in the lottery, year after year.


Honestly, maybe/maybe not. Who knows? Given the right system and coach, who knows, maybe his team would be a contender. Maybe if his teammates were solid but he was still the first option, sure, he could lead a team to the playoffs. I don't know, no one knows until it happens. I'm just being a jerk.

WaDe03
05-10-2016, 08:22 PM
Wade is the best SG and MVP of the postseason so far but Klay is definitely 2nd. Harden is very overrated and Jimmy is slightly overrated. Other than those 4 there isn't much competition.

Htownballa1622
05-10-2016, 08:24 PM
Better than James "charity stripe or nothing" Harden, no question about it whateoever.

Yep. All of his points come from the line. All 29 ppg.

He makes 29 free throws a game.

Htownballa1622
05-10-2016, 08:25 PM
Wade is the best SG and MVP of the postseason so far but Klay is definitely 2nd. Harden is very overrated and Jimmy is slightly overrated. Other than those 4 there isn't much competition.

COULD u imagine if wade fixed that broken shot of his? MAN.

archdevil84
05-10-2016, 08:54 PM
harden is the most overrated player in this league
imo its like this:
1 tie between klay and butler
2 wade
3 the rest

WaDe03
05-10-2016, 08:56 PM
COULD u imagine if wade fixed that broken shot of his? MAN.

His mid range game is great but yea if he had a 40% career 3 point shot or maybe a little less it would've been ridiculous.

WaDe03
05-10-2016, 09:00 PM
harden is the most overrated player in this league
imo its like this:
1 tie between klay and butler
2 wade
3 the rest

Mine are Wade, Klay, Harden/Butler. Butler is being overrated and I know you saw Wade dominate him head to head this year. I can't really think of a complaint I have in Wades game this postseason now that he's actually giving it his all. He's playing great all around offense (even knocking down 3s) and is blocking shots, getting steals, and locking people up on defense. He's just very active every where right now.

nastynice
05-10-2016, 09:11 PM
I think harden is being a little underrated here. I get that his defense is nightmarish, but offensively he is very good to elite from any given spot the court. IMO, the rox were just a broken team this year, I don't know why, and while SOME of that falls on harden, I don't think it all does. I still think Klay, harden, butler, and possibly wade (in my opinion id put wade a tier below, but I guess I could see an argument for him) are very close to one another, each having diff strengths. Butler probably being the most complete and IMO would be #1

WaDe03
05-10-2016, 09:29 PM
I think harden is being a little underrated here. I get that his defense is nightmarish, but offensively he is very good to elite from any given spot the court. IMO, the rox were just a broken team this year, I don't know why, and while SOME of that falls on harden, I don't think it all does. I still think Klay, harden, butler, and possibly wade (in my opinion id put wade a tier below, but I guess I could see an argument for him) are very close to one another, each having diff strengths. Butler probably being the most complete and IMO would be #1

From what I've seen most of the Rockets problems fall on the type of person/teammate Harden is. Stuff like that takes a big hit on how valuable a player is in my opinion and that and his major lack of defense is why I have him 3rd. I agree he is a very good offensive player though. Butler I also think is a little overrated. I believe his defense is a little overexaggerated but I admit I'm basing this on his defense on Wade which may not be fair. He looked lost most of the time on offense and defense in their matchups. Although I watched quite a few Bulls games this year those are the only games I really focused on his defense. He definitely had some huge games this year but like Harden I think he lacks leadership and apparently sends the wrong message in the locker room by being very cocky and now apparently has some beef with the ownership.

Scoots
05-10-2016, 10:36 PM
From what I've seen most of the Rockets problems fall on the type of person/teammate Harden is. Stuff like that takes a big hit on how valuable a player is in my opinion and that and his major lack of defense is why I have him 3rd. I agree he is a very good offensive player though. Butler I also think is a little overrated. I believe his defense is a little overexaggerated but I admit I'm basing this on his defense on Wade which may not be fair. He looked lost most of the time on offense and defense in their matchups. Although I watched quite a few Bulls games this year those are the only games I really focused on his defense. He definitely had some huge games this year but like Harden I think he lacks leadership and apparently sends the wrong message in the locker room by being very cocky and now apparently has some beef with the ownership.

Haven't been watching the Heat games too close ... is the offense as stagnant and as much the "Hey Dwyane!" offense it looks like?

Is that his teammates? Is that his coach? Is that Wade?

WaDe03
05-10-2016, 11:39 PM
Haven't been watching the Heat games too close ... is the offense as stagnant and as much the "Hey Dwyane!" offense it looks like?

Is that his teammates? Is that his coach? Is that Wade?

Honestly Deng Joe and the rest of the team other than Wade haven't been able to hit their 3s or just jumpers period. It's been very disappointing. It gets to the point where they basically just give the Wade the ball and tell him to score. It's working right now but guys need to start hitting shots, idk what the deal is. In the clutch it's nothing but Wade and on occasion terrible shot/play by Joe except for OT last night where everyone contributed.

So to answer your question it's the coach players and Wade. Players play bad, spo sucks, Wade gets pissed. It's definitely not the offense but it's what we've been forced to do unfortunately.

CHANGO
05-10-2016, 11:48 PM
People still underrating Butler and overrating Klay. Nothing new here, they are just living in the moment.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-11-2016, 12:56 PM
After watching Klay lock down Lillard as well as I think anyone could... I'll take Klay over Harden at the very least. Butler IDK... maybe. But I think Klay is the best. His defense is extremely underrated. He's one of the best perimeter defenders in the league. He just has a way of staying in front of athletic guards and smothering them with his length.

Chronz
05-11-2016, 01:00 PM
Its a legit discussion now, I was wrong for thinking it could never happen

Slug3
05-11-2016, 02:05 PM
Haven't been watching the Heat games too close ... is the offense as stagnant and as much the "Hey Dwyane!" offense it looks like?

Is that his teammates? Is that his coach? Is that Wade?

Its Spo. His offense sucks and Wade bails him out. Especially in late game situations. All you need to do is look at his inbound plays to see he draws up crappy plays. It gets even worse when its a tight game towards the end of the game and he can't even get the guys ope to receive and inbound pass.

Scoots
05-11-2016, 02:15 PM
Klay still disappears for stretches. Hard to blame him when he's playing next to Steph.

The Warriors system has Klay out of rebounding position and without the ball in his hand to make assists, so I don't blame him for those low numbers ... but when he stops working on offense that's all him.

I think Butler appearing to be a cancer and being unable to get healthy this year pushes him clearly down below Klay/Harden.

I can't quite believe it, but I honestly think Klay is the best SG in the NBA at the moment.

JOSKOMANG4
05-11-2016, 02:56 PM
LISTING THEM NOW: TOP IN EACH CONFERENCE

ATLANTIC DIVISION: D.DEROZEN
SOUTHEAST DIVISION: D. WADE
CENTRAL: JIMMY BUTLER

PACIFIC DIVISION: KLAY THOMPSON
NORTHWEST: MCCOLLUM
SOUTHWEST: HARDEN

I think i'd agree with Klay.

1. Klay 2. Harden 3. Butler 4. McCollum 5. Derozen 6. Wade

smith&wesson
05-11-2016, 03:10 PM
I would agree with Klay Thompson as being the best, only I put Jimmy Butler up there with him. .

If Harden played any defense at all he would be the guy, but he isn't a two way player and that drops him down the list for me.

Wrigheyes4MVP
05-12-2016, 02:58 PM
Klay still disappears for stretches. Hard to blame him when he's playing next to Steph.

The Warriors system has Klay out of rebounding position and without the ball in his hand to make assists, so I don't blame him for those low numbers ... but when he stops working on offense that's all him.

I think Butler appearing to be a cancer and being unable to get healthy this year pushes him clearly down below Klay/Harden.

I can't quite believe it, but I honestly think Klay is the best SG in the NBA at the moment.

He disappears for stretches? More like he plays on a record setting 73 win team with a lot of different options including the league MVP, so he doesn't have to force the issue when he's not hot or someone else like Curry is on fire.

If he had his own team like Harden does, he'd avg at least 25 ppg. That with his defense is enough. A healthy Wade is the guy who might be better, but at his age I'll go with the younger Klay.

jason
05-13-2016, 01:49 AM
He disappears for stretches? More like he plays on a record setting 73 win team with a lot of different options including the league MVP, so he doesn't have to force the issue when he's not hot or someone else like Curry is on fire.

If he had his own team like Harden does, he'd avg at least 25 ppg. That with his defense is enough. A healthy Wade is the guy who might be better, but at his age I'll go with the younger Klay.
I don't know if he would average 25ppg but he did show that he could put up points being the number 1 option. Even though it was a small sample size

WaDe03
05-13-2016, 03:23 AM
I don't know if he would average 25ppg but he did show that he could put up points being the number 1 option. Even though it was a small sample size

He would be pretty close in my opinion depending on his supporting cast. Too good of a shooter and at a good point in his career where it comes to athleticism to not average 25.

lol, please
05-13-2016, 03:52 AM
He would be pretty close in my opinion depending on his supporting cast. Too good of a shooter and at a good point in his career where it comes to athleticism to not average 25.

Imagine Wade and Klay going toe to toe in the Finals this year. Would be a series for the ages.

Monta is beast
05-13-2016, 04:17 AM
Imagine Wade and Klay going toe to toe in the Finals this year. Would be a series for the ages.

Would be a clean sweep

Monta is beast
05-13-2016, 04:18 AM
Nevermind i forgot wade is better than curry

WaDe03
05-13-2016, 04:26 AM
Would be a clean sweep

If everyone is out like they are now then yea probably. If we had everyone you wouldn't sweep us though. We played you guys well this year. Would be 1-1 against you guys this year if you weren't allowed to use moving screens. You guys got away with 2 huge ones late in the game that led to 3s in the game at Miami.

WaDe03
05-13-2016, 04:29 AM
Nevermind i forgot wade is better than curry

All time yes, right now no. Damn man your feelings are so hurt right now. I promise you everything is going to be alright.

That clean sweep comment is blatant disrespect though. No need to be a cocky *** fan. Your team wasn't **** for however many years they've had a team and now that there good certain fans want to be cocky as hell and act like their **** don't stink. Be thankful and enjoy the ride. Don't act like other teams haven't been in your guys shoes competing for championships every year, it always comes to an end eventually.

WaDe03
05-13-2016, 04:30 AM
Imagine Wade and Klay going toe to toe in the Finals this year. Would be a series for the ages.

I'd be more intrigued with the Richardson and Curry matchup.

Monta is beast
05-13-2016, 04:35 AM
All time yes, right now no. Damn man your feelings are so hurt right now. I promise you everything is going to be alright.

That clean sweep comment is blatant disrespect though. No need to be a cocky *** fan. Your team wasn't **** for however many years they've had a team and now that there good certain fans want to be cocky as hell and act like their **** don't stink. Be thankful and enjoy the ride. Don't act like other teams haven't been in your guys shoes competing for championships every year, it always comes to an end eventually.

Ima disrespect your squad cause your disrespting Curry. Theres a snowballs chance in hell wade goes down as a better player than curry.

WaDe03
05-13-2016, 04:48 AM
Ima disrespect your squad cause your disrespting Curry. Theres a snowballs chance in hell wade goes down as a better player than curry.

You should be saying that the other way around. Curry has a lot of catching up to do and you never know if he'll be able to hold up. He's somewhat injury prone. A torn ACL or something could **** him up. That's why I say enjoy it while you have it and try not to be a cocky *** fan.

I'm not disrespecting Curry because I say he's not in the top 10 all time or because he's not better than LeBron right now. If anything guys like you who say he's top 10 or the guy who made the thread saying he's the GOAT is disrespecting every other all time great.

Monta is beast
05-13-2016, 04:57 AM
Fair enough..he needs more chips to be in the goat conversation. But you said wade in his prime is better than curry right now, thats just not true bro. Curry imo and in the majority of peoples opinions is the best player in basketball. Hes playing while a top 10 possibly top 5 player all time is also playing. Thats kinda sums up where im at

WaDe03
05-13-2016, 05:02 AM
Fair enough..he needs more chips to be in the goat conversation. But you said wade in his prime is better than curry right now, thats just not true bro. Curry imo and in the majority of peoples opinions is the best player in basketball. Hes playing while a top 10 possibly top 5 player all time is also playing. Thats kinda sums up where im at

That's fine then we're obviously not going to see eye to eye on this with me being a Heat fan and you a Warriors fan. I don't think the Warriors would be any worse if you swap prime Wade out with Curry but there's no way to tell. That top 10 or 5 player is also at the tail end of his prime and on somewhat of a decline over the past years based on his play in Miami compared to now but I still believe he's currently the best player. Curry may prove me wrong depending on how the season ends.

nastynice
05-13-2016, 06:09 AM
Imagine Wade and Klay going toe to toe in the Finals this year. Would be a series for the ages.


Would be a clean sweep


lmao, dude, lolplease, that was like the worst matchup ever! Haha

I mean of all the names left, you could have a curry vs lebron, KD vs lebron, curry vs Westbrook, lebron vs wade...but Klay vs wade? Series for the ages, what the hell? Might as well say like derozen vs Barnes, haha, hella random

jason
05-14-2016, 12:29 AM
Not sure how true it is but saw this on Twitter
Klay Thompson vs the Blazers:
PPG: 31.2
FG: 49.5%
3PT: 50.0%
FT: 94.4%
TS: 65.6%

lol, please
05-14-2016, 12:51 AM
Not sure how true it is but saw this on Twitter
Klay Thompson vs the Blazers:
PPG: 31.2
FG: 49.5%
3PT: 50.0%
FT: 94.4%
TS: 65.6%

I just want to know how those numbers change if you switched Klay with guys like Wade, Harden, Derozan, or Butler. :confused:

WaDe03
05-14-2016, 01:02 AM
Wade would be doing what he's doing now.

BKLYNpigeon
05-14-2016, 03:02 AM
Curry already surpassed Wade.

naps
05-14-2016, 03:27 AM
curry already surpassed wade.

lol

WaDe03
05-14-2016, 04:00 AM
Curry already surpassed Wade.

Hahaha.

CHANGO
05-14-2016, 01:39 PM
I just want to know how those numbers change if you switched Klay with guys like Wade, Harden, Derozan, or Butler. :confused:

Wade on this playoffs is already averaging;
21.8 PPG
47% FG%
53% 3P%
5.8 RPG
4.4 APG
1.0 BPG
0.8 SPG

in 34 MPG.

That while playing against MUCH BETTER DEFENSES in the Hornets and Raptors (Top 11 defenses in the regular season) and being the focal point of our offense and opponents game planning.

If he was playing alongside Curry I'm sure he would have it easier to score. :)

Nice try tho.

jason
05-14-2016, 02:25 PM
Wade on this playoffs is already averaging;
21.8 PPG
47% FG%
53% 3P%
5.8 RPG
4.4 APG
1.0 BPG
0.8 SPG

in 34 MPG.

That while playing against MUCH BETTER DEFENSES in the Hornets and Raptors (Top 11 defenses in the regular season) and being the focal point of our offense and opponents game planning.

If he was playing alongside Curry I'm sure he would have it easier to score. :)

Nice try tho.

29.5 PPG
47% FG%
40% 3P%
3.8 RPG
2.8 APG
1 SPG
36 MPG

Without Curry

27.2 PPG
47% FG%
47% 3P%
3.6 RPG
2.9 APG
1.2 SPG

With Curry

5-2 without Curry not bad...

nastynice
05-14-2016, 02:58 PM
Wade's been having a great playoffs, making some big shots, but I gotta imagine vast majority of people got Klay ranked ahead of him. When that guy is on, damn, it's like borderline unfair lol

lol, please
05-14-2016, 03:33 PM
Wade's been having a great playoffs, making some big shots, but I gotta imagine vast majority of people got Klay ranked ahead of him. When that guy is on, damn, it's like borderline unfair lol

Tell that to Wad3 and chango.

Apparently Wade would be putting up bigger numbers if we swapped Klay and Wade.

WaDe03
05-14-2016, 03:58 PM
Tell that to Wad3 and chango.

Apparently Wade would be putting up bigger numbers if we swapped Klay and Wade.

No one said bigger numbers unless I missed it. You guys have the best player at every position in your minds and that's fine, you're confident. People are overlooking what Wade has been doing in these playoffs though. I think it was ESPN or NBA.com that has Wade as the MVP in the playoffs so far. There's nothing he is doing bad. Doing everything on offense, locking people down on defense, and leads basically every single clutch statistic in the playoffs. This is all while the Raptors only focus on defense has been Wade because his teammates have been so bad. It's ok to think Klay is better, they are my top 2 but some of you guys are acting like it's not even close or debatable.

CHANGO
05-15-2016, 01:17 PM
Tell that to Wad3 and chango.

Apparently Wade would be putting up bigger numbers if we swapped Klay and Wade.


Please show me where I said Wade is the best SG in the league. :)

Learn to read my friend. You asked, I responded. Thanks!

lol, please
05-15-2016, 03:13 PM
Please show me where I said Wade is the best SG in the league. :)

Learn to read my friend. You asked, I responded. Thanks!
I never said you did actually. I brought both of you two up because you both have been hyping Wade pretty hard in other threads. I haven't seen most of the series and much of the Heat at all these playoffs, so I really don't have an opinion on current Wade right now, but I figured if Wade is having an mvp-esque playoff run as someone said at one point, then you would be able to make a case for Wade and that was my way of challenging you to do so.

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

CHANGO
05-15-2016, 06:47 PM
I never said you did actually. I brought both of you two up because you both have been hyping Wade pretty hard in other threads. I haven't seen most of the series and much of the Heat at all these playoffs, so I really don't have an opinion on current Wade right now, but I figured if Wade is having an mvp-esque playoff run as someone said at one point, then you would be able to make a case for Wade and that was my way of challenging you to do so.

sent from my Note 5 on Tapatalk

Again, show me where I was "hyping" up Wade in other threads... I'm sure you are confusing me with another poster.

You challenged me and I did responded, you said nothing.

Wade put similar numbers to Klay, with better efficiency (Klay wins in FT%), while being the man on his team and also being the focus of two great defenses on the Playoffs. And also had better all around numbers (BLK, RBS, STL, AST).

That's all.

Saddletramp
05-15-2016, 11:55 PM
Again, show me where I was "hyping" up Wade in other threads... I'm sure you are confusing me with another poster.

You challenged me and I did responded, you said nothing.

Wade put similar numbers to Klay, with better efficiency (Klay wins in FT%), while being the man on his team and also being the focus of two great defenses on the Playoffs. And also had better all around numbers (BLK, RBS, STL, AST).

That's all.

Don't sweat him, he's just trolling. It's kind of his thing, for some odd reason.

bigmac8675
05-16-2016, 02:05 PM
If we are talking all around game... then you can make a case for either Klay or Butler. However, if it's just scoring... Harden is #1, but homie don't play any D so give me either Butler or Klay.

DR_1
05-16-2016, 03:24 PM
I go

1. Butler
2. Klay
3. Harden

lol, please
05-16-2016, 04:26 PM
I go

1. Butler
2. Klay
3. Harden

You would take Butler over Klay? :confused:

Monta is beast
05-16-2016, 07:38 PM
Butler is to ball dominant for me. Its easier to find someone who can be effective with the ball, its harder to find someone who can be effective without it.

ewing
05-17-2016, 12:51 AM
this guy is getting better. he reminds me of Reggie a lot

lol, please
05-17-2016, 01:44 AM
Butler is to ball dominant for me. Its easier to find someone who can be effective with the ball, its harder to find someone who can be effective without it.

Yup.


Klay moves well off the ball and is lethal as a spot shooter, be he can also move the ball, drive, cut, hit fadeaways, and make great passes.

Not to mention he is an elite defender.

Saddletramp
05-17-2016, 03:41 AM
Yup.


Klay moves well off the ball and is lethal as a spot shooter, be he can also move the ball, drive, cut, hit fadeaways, and make great passes.

Not to mention he is an elite defender.



Elite? C'mon man. Do you even believe half the stuff you say? His defense is good but elite?

lol, please
05-17-2016, 04:34 PM
Elite? C'mon man. Do you even believe half the stuff you say? His defense is good but elite?

What's your criteria for an elite defender?

Is it really an outlandish statement?

The man guards number one options on the opposing teams pretty regularly and does well against them.
This season:

3.7 DRB per/36
10.3 DRB%
2.6 DWS

Not the highest numbers, but for a two way player consistently guarding the best opposing scorers, and recognizing that his strenth is offense/shooting, I would say yea, for a SG, an elite defender all things considered, and only getting better.

Saddletramp
05-17-2016, 06:01 PM
What's your criteria for an elite defender?

Is it really an outlandish statement?

The man guards number one options on the opposing teams pretty regularly and does well against them.
This season:

3.7 DRB per/36
10.3 DRB%
2.6 DWS

Not the highest numbers, but for a two way player consistently guarding the best opposing scorers, and recognizing that his strenth is offense/shooting, I would say yea, for a SG, an elite defender all things considered, and only getting better.

Highest numbers = elite. That's sort of what elite means. So you just contradicted yourself in trying to prove that you're right. You make it just too easy sometimes.

OceanSpray
05-17-2016, 06:38 PM
As great as Wade was in the playoffs, I have to still give it to Harden. So my ranking would look like:

Harden
Thompson
Butler
Wade
Wiggins or DeRozan

Doesn't mean much, tbh. SG is the weakest position in the NBA right now.

I also scoffed when someone said and actually thinks "Wade is the MVP of the playoffs right now." Oh yeah? According to what/whom?

jason
05-17-2016, 07:00 PM
As great as Wade was in the playoffs, I have to still give it to Harden. So my ranking would look like:

Harden
Thompson
Butler
Wade
Wiggins or DeRozan

Doesn't mean much, tbh. SG is the weakest position in the NBA right now.

I also scoffed when someone said and actually thinks "Wade is the MVP of the playoffs right now." Oh yeah? According to what/whom?

I think Wade03 is the only that said that but he rather call the whole team garbage instead of putting any blame on him

WaDe03
05-17-2016, 10:33 PM
As great as Wade was in the playoffs, I have to still give it to Harden. So my ranking would look like:

Harden
Thompson
Butler
Wade
Wiggins or DeRozan

Doesn't mean much, tbh. SG is the weakest position in the NBA right now.

I also scoffed when someone said and actually thinks "Wade is the MVP of the playoffs right now." Oh yeah? According to what/whom?

ESPN or NBA.com did the rankings not me.

WaDe03
05-17-2016, 10:34 PM
I think Wade03 is the only that said that but he rather call the whole team garbage instead of putting any blame on him

Wade didn't play aggressive at all game 7 I put that blame on him. He did what he was supposed to do the rest of the series but didn't have much help. I don't see how you can argue that.

Chi-guy13
05-17-2016, 10:39 PM
Im a bit bias when it comes to Jimmy Butler, but for right now, i have to say Klay is the best SG. Best two-way SG.

Hardens defense isnt there, and jimmys offense is still a bit inconsistent.

Klay has the all around game, best catch and shoot guy, a good defender, and his team stays winning.

lol, please
05-18-2016, 12:50 PM
Highest numbers = elite. That's sort of what elite means. So you just contradicted yourself in trying to prove that you're right. You make it just too easy sometimes.

That's your definition, is what you meant to say. It's both subjective and relative.

That's why I asked you what your criteria / cutoff for "elite" was, and this is a fairly lazy response.

I didn't contradict myself at all.

Saddletramp
05-18-2016, 01:49 PM
That's your definition, is what you meant to say. It's both subjective and relative.

That's why I asked you what your criteria / cutoff for "elite" was, and this is a fairly lazy response.

I didn't contradict myself at all.

It doesn't matter what my criteria is. You even disagreed with yourself.

Elite=a select part of a group that is superior to the rest in terms of ability or qualities.

Nothing subjective to that. You ever said "not the highest numbers". You keep letting those pesky facts get in the way and then call them subjective.


Lol, please.

Oefarmy2005
05-20-2016, 10:35 AM
He probably is, but it just tells you what horrible state the SG position is in the last few years.

TrueFan420
05-20-2016, 11:00 AM
Butler is to ball dominant for me. Its easier to find someone who can be effective with the ball, its harder to find someone who can be effective without it.

Fair enough and I agree but to be elite you should be able to do both. For me for Klay to truly take the title uncontested best SG he needs to continue to improve his on ball game. It doesn't have to be his go to. But he needs to improve attacking the basket, dribbling and getting to the line. And to be fair he's vastly better at it then when he entered the league. Just needs to take it to a slightly higher level.

ewing
05-20-2016, 11:13 AM
What's your criteria for an elite defender?

Is it really an outlandish statement?

The man guards number one options on the opposing teams pretty regularly and does well against them.
This season:

3.7 DRB per/36
10.3 DRB%
2.6 DWS

Not the highest numbers, but for a two way player consistently guarding the best opposing scorers, and recognizing that his strenth is offense/shooting, I would say yea, for a SG, an elite defender all things considered, and only getting better.

normally i think you are just being a warriors homer but i actually agree with you here. Klay is an excellent defender when you add in the fact someone has to chase him all over the court on the other end b/c of his range i think he has a major impact on the defensive end

ewing
05-20-2016, 11:16 AM
Fair enough and I agree but to be elite you should be able to do both. For me for Klay to truly take the title uncontested best SG he needs to continue to improve his on ball game. It doesn't have to be his go to. But he needs to improve attacking the basket, dribbling and getting to the line. And to be fair he's vastly better at it then when he entered the league. Just needs to take it to a slightly higher level.

i don't think he will ever be a guy that attacks the basket off the bounce a lot. he does get to the hole on cuts and his mid range/post game is improving. I think b/t 8 and 18 is where Klay has the most room to grow creating shots.

Scoots
05-20-2016, 12:48 PM
http://www.nba.com/magic/gallery/cohen-8ball-ranking-nbas-best-shooting-guards-2015-16-season-20160412

There is no good objective way to rank defense ... yet. The box-score based ones are really flawed.

DBPM for starting SG
1. Danny Green
2. Andre Roberson
3. Monta Ellis
4. Victor Oladipo
5. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
6. Kyle Korver
7. Jimmy Butler
8. Courtney Lee
9. Dwyane Wade
10. Avery Bradley

DWS for starting SG
1. Danny Green
2. Monta Ellis
3. Kyle Korver
4. Avery Bradley
5. Victor Oladipo
6. Kentavious Caldwell-Pope
7. Jimmy Butler
8. Dwyane Wade
9. James Harden
10. Klay Thompson

DRtg for starting SG
1. Danny Green
2. Monta Ellis
3. Kyle Korver
4. Tony Allen
5. Dwyane Wade
6. JR Smith
7. Andre Roberson
8. Victor Oladipo
9. Jimmy Butler
10. Avery Bradley

Does anyone have the sport-vu defensive stats?

WaDe03
05-20-2016, 12:53 PM
They've been sleeping on Wade 2-way game! Best SG in the league!

Wade
Klay
Harden
Butler
Tyler Johnson

Scoots
05-20-2016, 01:11 PM
i don't think he will ever be a guy that attacks the basket off the bounce a lot. he does get to the hole on cuts and his mid range/post game is improving. I think b/t 8 and 18 is where Klay has the most room to grow creating shots.

It's really hard to tell what he can do that he's not doing. That mid-range area he's pretty good at but it's also the lowest area of focus for the team's offense. His ball handling and passing are limited by the team's offense and offensive players around him. His rebounding is limited by it being his job to leak out on offense and be the the first man back on defense. Is his game weak in these areas and they are giving him tasks that cover that up, or is his game fine in those areas they are just focusing more on his better strengths in other areas ... hard to say.

TrueFan420
05-20-2016, 02:09 PM
i don't think he will ever be a guy that attacks the basket off the bounce a lot. he does get to the hole on cuts and his mid range/post game is improving. I think b/t 8 and 18 is where Klay has the most room to grow creating shots.

He doesn't have to be the guy that always goes just to the hoop. Hell I don't want him to be. But he needs to tighten up his attacking skills a little more.

ewing
05-20-2016, 02:17 PM
It's really hard to tell what he can do that he's not doing. That mid-range area he's pretty good at but it's also the lowest area of focus for the team's offense. His ball handling and passing are limited by the team's offense and offensive players around him. His rebounding is limited by it being his job to leak out on offense and be the the first man back on defense. Is his game weak in these areas and they are giving him tasks that cover that up, or is his game fine in those areas they are just focusing more on his better strengths in other areas ... hard to say.


I think there are a lot opportunities out there for him to fake and step in and hit mid range Js. Reggie Miller scored a lot hoops off the bounce by using his range to get himself open mid range shots. I know you see him more then me but I think Klay is getting better at this and its an area i think that he can't exploit in his current role.

cmellofan15
05-20-2016, 02:39 PM
they've been sleeping on wade 2-way game! Best sg in the league!

wade
klay
harden
butler
tyler johnson

lmao

OceanSpray
05-20-2016, 02:41 PM
Someone close this thread. The SG position is weaker than ever. Klay can be the best SG in the league all he wants but I'm more than positive he wouldn't be able to lead a team outside of the Warriors right now.

Scoots
05-20-2016, 02:42 PM
I think there are a lot opportunities out there for him to fake and step in and hit mid range Js. Reggie Miller scored a lot hoops off the bounce by using his range to get himself open mid range shots. I know you see him more then me but I think Klay is getting better at this and its an area i think that he can't exploit in his current role.

He's almost automatic when he does it ... but for the most part if he gets there and there are 3 shooters out for 3 the plan has him passing it out more than shooting.

Klay's man D is very good ... but his team defense is where I think he has the most improvement available. Curry is a better team defender than Klay is. But then again, it's possible Klay is less of a team defender because the scheme often has him up on the top offensive wing.

OceanSpray
05-20-2016, 02:46 PM
He's almost automatic when he does it ... but for the most part if he gets there and there are 3 shooters out for 3 the plan has him passing it out more than shooting.

Klay's man D is very good ... but his team defense is where I think he has the most improvement available. Curry is a better team defender than Klay is. But then again, it's possible Klay is less of a team defender because the scheme often has him up on the top offensive wing.

Curry's team defense is better? I'm pretty sure that's not true. They hide Curry on inferior offensive players while Klay has to guard players ranging from Westbrook to Kevin Durant. So I wouldn't say his team defense is better rather he is designed to play team defense strictly.

WaDe03
05-20-2016, 02:53 PM
lmao

The numbers just posted say Wade is the better defender of any of these guys and he does way more on offense than any of them. I would like to see your argument for Tyler Johnson not being a top 5 SG.

OceanSpray
05-20-2016, 03:01 PM
The numbers just posted say Wade is the better defender of any of these guys and he does way more on offense than any of them. I would like to see your argument for Tyler Johnson not being a top 5 SG.

What the hell makes you think Tyler Johnson is a top five SG? And you expect people to take you serious when you defend Wade every thread you appear on? Give me a break dude. I don't think Wade is a good defender. He has his moments where he turns it up. Overall, it still is weak because he does quit on many plays. But Tyler Johnson as a top five SG? If that's the case, he should be getting max dollars.