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Gander13SM
12-19-2015, 08:23 PM
...are two of only seven players since 1970 to average at least 20ppg, 6apg* and 1spg while playing less than 33mpg.

(The others were Westbrook, Curry, Jerry West, Paul Westphal and Ray Williams)

Now there's no way of knowing if they'll maintain this. But it's pretty impressive.

Who has surprised you more so far? And who do you think will finish the year with the better season? Who do you take going forward?


Side note; *Isaiah is the only one of the seven to do this while averaging less than 3 turnover per game.

ewing
12-19-2015, 08:43 PM
i take Thomas. His speed can completely change the complexion of games. I've always liked Jackson and got roasted but in here and in the knicks forum for saying he would have a better then John Wall this year.

ewing
12-19-2015, 08:48 PM
Jared Sullinger is averaging just under a double double in 25 mins that pretty impressive. I was expecting Lee to have a big role and he hasn't. Jared has been impressive. we'll see if any of these Boston bigs step forward as a lead guy instead being played by committee but right Sullinger looks to be the guy.

flea
12-19-2015, 09:10 PM
They're both solid guards but when you put out historical stats like that you've got to give context. This era is tailor-made for ballhandling guards to put up stats - whether they win or lose. Don't care what their stats say, neither one is a top 10 guard, probably not even top 10 point guard.

ewing
12-19-2015, 10:31 PM
They're both solid guards but when you put out historical stats like that you've got to give context. This era is tailor-made for ballhandling guards to put up stats - whether they win or lose. Don't care what their stats say, neither one is a top 10 guard, probably not even top 10 point guard.

i agree with the most of your post the last part is quite dubious

tredigs
12-19-2015, 11:14 PM
...are two of only seven players since 1970 to average at least 20ppg, 6apg* and 1spg while playing less than 33mpg.

(The others were Westbrook, Curry, Jerry West, Paul Westphal and Ray Williams)

Now there's no way of knowing if they'll maintain this. But it's pretty impressive.

Who has surprised you more so far? And who do you think will finish the year with the better season? Who do you take going forward?


Side note; *Isaiah is the only one of the seven to do this while averaging less than 3 turnover per game.
A lot of arbitrary #'s here that don't really impress me. How many did this in >33 mpg that would still have done it on a per-33 mpg average? None of these thresholds pop out as a "wow" stat either, particularly when you consider that the PPG are not at an elite efficiency. 20 and 6 with 1 steal on "OK to Good" shooting efficiency in 32 mpg is is really not that impressive man. The impressive list of other PG's who have done it are a product of the fact that players play fewer minutes now than they used to.

flea
12-19-2015, 11:16 PM
I didn't really think it out when I wrote top 10 PG but I know I wouldn't have put either to start season. Let me see:

Westbrook, Curry, Paul, Lowry, Irving, Wall, Parker, Lillard, Conley and Bledsoe are without a doubt better IMO.

I'd still probably take at least one of: Teague, Hill, Kemba, Dragic, Payton, Williams, Rubio, and Rondo over those 2. I don't watch either guy in OP's post a whole lot but I've seen clunkers by both of them where they barely impact the game, and Thomas is basically a one-way player.

ewing
12-19-2015, 11:24 PM
I didn't really think it out when I wrote top 10 PG but I know I wouldn't have put either to start season. Let me see:

Westbrook, Curry, Paul, Lowry, Irving, Wall, Parker, Lillard, Conley and Bledsoe are without a doubt better IMO.

I'd still probably take at least one of: Teague, Hill, Kemba, Dragic, Payton, Williams, Rubio, and Rondo over those 2. I don't watch either guy in OP's post a whole lot but I've seen clunkers by both of them where they barely impact the game, and Thomas is basically a one-way player.

I take both guys over Wall. Hill is legit and has better argument. Parker is hampered by injuries so much that he is roll of the dice at this point. I definitely like both guys more then Kemba, Payton, Williams, Rubio, and Rando. I think Dragic has game but he has to show it. As for Thomas being a one way player I don't buy it. The Celts has some good bigs and he is fast **** on both ends. Like it or not he is the guy that turned that team in the right direction. He is there best player and i think he is an allstar.

tredigs
12-20-2015, 12:42 AM
I take both guys over Wall. Hill is legit and has better argument. Parker is hampered by injuries so much that he is roll of the dice at this point. I definitely like both guys more then Kemba, Payton, Williams, Rubio, and Rando. I think Dragic has game but he has to show it. As for Thomas being a one way player I don't buy it. The Celts has some good bigs and he is fast **** on both ends. Like it or not he is the guy that turned that team in the right direction. He is there best player and i think he is an allstar.
Isaiah is definitely a one way talent. That team has a great perimeter defense... out of IT. Smart/Bradley/Crowder are menacing and a big reason for them having a top defense in the league. But, it took a significant hit when Smart went down in favor of IT. He's a very solid offensive presence and helps them win games, that much is fair. Better than John Wall though? And both of them at that? Hell no.

ewing
12-20-2015, 01:00 AM
Isaiah is definitely a one way talent. That team has a great perimeter defense... out of IT. Smart/Bradley/Crowder are menacing and a big reason for them having a top defense in the league. But, it took a significant hit when Smart went down in favor of IT. He's a very solid offensive presence and helps them win games, that much is fair. Better than John Wall though? And both of them at that? Hell no.

The Wizard would be better with either player has would most teams with talent. He is a ball dominate negative on offensive. The Clets definitely have some real good perimeter defender thought. thats a good point. I still think IT is the guy that makes the Celts go

JAZZNC
12-20-2015, 01:03 AM
I would take IT to keep up the pace just because he has more offensive scoring talent. I feel like Jackson is the better player but I don't like either of them. Just kinda average for point guard play these days. They are a net positive but I don't like to say out loud that either is a top 10 PG. I guess the argument can be made for them because after the top tier it's kind of a cluster **** of guys all together.

tredigs
12-20-2015, 01:05 AM
The Wizard would be better with either player has would most teams with talent. He is a ball dominate negative on offensive. The Clets definitely have some real good perimeter defender thought. thats a good point. I still think IT is the guy that makes the Celts go

Man I disagree. He's an amazing playmaker. The Wiz are nothing without Wall. That team has no talent, well especially when Beal's out.

ewing
12-20-2015, 01:13 AM
Man I disagree. He's an amazing playmaker. The Wiz are nothing without Wall. That team has no talent, well especially when Beal's out.

its his 6th year. Its time to let go of the idea that he is a franchise player. He been surround by solid offensive players for 3 years now and they have been a bad offensive team., Nene, Marcin, Trevor, PP, Beal, Neal Porter, etc. If your point is he needs Durrant and Irving to hand ball too he isn't a good play maker in that case. When you have a guy that cant shoot a jump shot hold ball 20 + feet from the hole all day you have trouble scoring. He is not a great play maker. He has had good offensive players around him and his teams have sucked on offensive. Dude plays way too big role for them and it kills them.

tredigs
12-20-2015, 01:32 AM
I'm way too tired to delve into the points of this (like you saying he has had + offensive casts around him, or finding the stats and articles that break down just how ridiculously good of a playmaker he has been over the past few years), but it's all out there. Honestly if I thought this was close to a debate I'd consider taking the extra effort, but it isn't.

I'm not saying he is a franchise superstar. I'm saying he's better than Reggie Jackson and IT lmao. Funny you mention being overly ball dominant as well, seeing as he has a lower usage rate than both of these guys.

ewing
12-20-2015, 02:00 AM
I'm way too tired to delve into the points of this (like you saying he has had + offensive casts around him, or finding the stats and articles that break down just how ridiculously good of a playmaker he has been over the past few years), but it's all out there. Honestly if I thought this was close to a debate I'd consider taking the extra effort, but it isn't.

I'm not saying he is a franchise superstar. I'm saying he's better than Reggie Jackson and IT lmao. Funny you mention being overly ball dominant as well, seeing as he has a lower usage rate than both of these guys.

He holds the ball and nothing happens b/c he cant shoot thats why his usage rate is lower.

Bostonjorge
12-20-2015, 02:56 AM
Boston is the Thomas and crowder show. Thomas has been consistent on offense and shown he can take over games. He's what we thought dragic was. A top 5 guard out east and he's earning it.

Irving
Wade
Lowry
Wall
Thomas

Top 10 point guard is tough to crack since we have 10 superstar point guards in the league.

Gander13SM
12-20-2015, 03:44 AM
A lot of arbitrary #'s here that don't really impress me. How many did this in >33 mpg that would still have done it on a per-33 mpg average? None of these thresholds pop out as a "wow" stat either, particularly when you consider that the PPG are not at an elite efficiency. 20 and 6 with 1 steal on "OK to Good" shooting efficiency in 32 mpg is is really not that impressive man. The impressive list of other PG's who have done it are a product of the fact that players play fewer minutes now than they used to.

Isaiah is second on that list only to Curry in regards to eFG% and TS% and he is doing it while averaging fewer turnovers and less minutes so I don't know where you think the lack of efficiency is.

It's like Steph. The reason he's having arguably the greatest offensive season ever isn't because of per game averages. Plenty of guys have matched or surpassed those. It's because of the efficiency.

Here's a list of all the players in NBA history who have averaged 30 points a game or more while playing less than 35 minutes per game;

1. Stephen Curry

That's it.

That's the entire list.


Nobody has came close to his sort of output while playing less than 35 minutes per game.

In fact, a quick check shows that 40 players have averaged >6apg and >2spg while playing <35mpg. None of them averaged more than 20ppg aside from Steph and Westbrook. Westbrook in 2014 managed it while his eFG% is 20% lower than Curry's and he's managing it gain this year while his eFG% is much improved and still 14% lower than Curry's.

Sorry. They might seem arbitrary and I can see why you would say that and in part I agree. But what you do with the minutes you are given is important in my mind.

If these averages were that easy to get on such low minutes there would be more than 7 players in the entire history of the league to do so (back to the IT/Reggie thing)

Gander13SM
12-20-2015, 04:07 AM
They're both solid guards but when you put out historical stats like that you've got to give context. This era is tailor-made for ballhandling guards to put up stats - whether they win or lose. Don't care what their stats say, neither one is a top 10 guard, probably not even top 10 point guard.

Historical context. Tiny averaged 30ppg in 1973.

I like it when people pretend these high scoring point guards are some new modern thing. More common? Sure. But let's not pretend Tiny, Bing, Clark etc didn't exist pre-mid 80s.

flea
12-20-2015, 02:23 PM
Historical context. Tiny averaged 30ppg in 1973.

I like it when people pretend these high scoring point guards are some new modern thing. More common? Sure. But let's not pretend Tiny, Bing, Clark etc didn't exist pre-mid 80s.

So a HOF guard averaged 30 while playing basically the entire game... What exactly does that have to do with these 2 mid-pack guards?

ewing
12-20-2015, 03:48 PM
So a HOF guard averaged 30 while playing basically the entire game... What exactly does that have to do with these 2 mid-pack guards?

it just show that they are mid pack either. They aren't in the lead but they aren't the middle either. Sorry both guys are way better then the likes of Rubio and Dragic right now

flea
12-20-2015, 03:57 PM
How good does this make them then? Both of their teams have bottom 10 offenses and are mediocre East teams. Brandon Knight and Eric Bledsoe are both putting up basically the same numbers as they are too (they are playing more than 33 MPG though) and they're on a below-.500 West team with some good talent. Are they impressive too?

Of the 60 starting backcourt players I can think of at least 20 I'd rather have than these two. Color me not impressed.

Gander13SM
12-20-2015, 06:27 PM
How good does this make them then? Both of their teams have bottom 10 offenses and are mediocre East teams. Brandon Knight and Eric Bledsoe are both putting up basically the same numbers as they are too (they are playing more than 33 MPG though) and they're on a below-.500 West team with some good talent. Are they impressive too?

Of the 60 starting backcourt players I can think of at least 20 I'd rather have than these two. Color me not impressed.

Knight and Bledsoe have been exceptionally impressive. You need to learn to separate individual success and team success.

flea
12-20-2015, 06:49 PM
You need to learn that PPG and TS% aren't the end of basketball analysis. You're like the Isaiah Thomas (GM) of PSD. If they are "exceptionally impressive" then I guess every team in the league has at least 2 guards that are "exceptionally impressive." At which point we've got to wonder what that moniker even means.

Howard_Zinn
12-20-2015, 09:13 PM
Reggie is balling.. He hits more clutch shots than anyone i see play. Reggie/Drummond is a legit duo.. If Stanley Johnson pans out the pistons will contend soon.

Howard_Zinn
12-20-2015, 09:15 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wPKbB-f5irE

PowerHouse
12-20-2015, 09:27 PM
When you're mentioned in the same ilk as a legend like Ray Williams, you know you're ballin'.

Colts_4_life
12-20-2015, 11:03 PM
To the guy saying John Wall isn't a playmaker....You sir are blind and silly. You should be banned for saying some dumb ish like that. I'm a Wiz fan and you say Porter has a jumpshot? Man, pleaseeee! Beal shooting % should be higher! Wall made Trevor relevant again. Jackson over Wall? LMAO...Jackson got cooked this season(In D.C) by Wall lol.

ewing
12-21-2015, 09:32 AM
To the guy saying John Wall isn't a playmaker....You sir are blind and silly. You should be banned for saying some dumb ish like that. I'm a Wiz fan and you say Porter has a jumpshot? Man, pleaseeee! Beal shooting % should be higher! Wall made Trevor relevant again. Jackson over Wall? LMAO...Jackson got cooked this season(In D.C) by Wall lol.

someone brought the hype

MonroeFAN
12-21-2015, 10:14 AM
Boston is the Thomas and crowder show. Thomas has been consistent on offense and shown he can take over games. He's what we thought dragic was. A top 5 guard out east and he's earning it.

Irving
Wade
Lowry
Wall
Thomas

Top 10 point guard is tough to crack since we have 10 superstar point guards in the league.

lol

valade16
12-21-2015, 10:38 AM
Man I disagree. He's an amazing playmaker. The Wiz are nothing without Wall. That team has no talent, well especially when Beal's out.

While I agree with you that neither player is nearly as good as Wall there's no denying Wall is having (for him) a sub-par year and both IT and Jackson are having good years compared to their prior production and efficiency, and all the advanced stats support that.

Gander13SM
12-21-2015, 10:43 AM
You need to learn that PPG and TS% aren't the end of basketball analysis. You're like the Isaiah Thomas (GM) of PSD. If they are "exceptionally impressive" then I guess every team in the league has at least 2 guards that are "exceptionally impressive." At which point we've got to wonder what that moniker even means.

We are in a golden age for point guards. And have been for a while (where have you been?) Middle of the pack guys now would have been top 10ish before. It's just that the position is so damn deep now, all star caliber talent is actually the average level for that position (regarding starters).

If you don't think Bledsoe and Knight have been impressive then you're either really young and have been spoiled by this golden age of the guard or an absolute pessimist (or know nothing about the game and haven't watched them play, but based on your previous posts I think that's unlikely).

Based on where these guys were the last couple of years, they're playing great.

And where did I say TS% and ppg are the end of basketball analysis? Keep making smart *** remarks in an attempt to belittle my opinion. It's fine. I'll stick to discussions with people who actually want to have them and aren't going to dismiss everything that doesn't fall in line with their own opinion.

MonroeFAN
12-21-2015, 11:29 AM
I'll take isiah Thomas as well despite the fact that his numbers are basically identical and his team, measurements and intangibles aren't as good as Reggies.

tredigs
12-21-2015, 01:39 PM
While I agree with you that neither player is nearly as good as Wall there's no denying Wall is having (for him) a sub-par year and both IT and Jackson are having good years compared to their prior production and efficiency, and all the advanced stats support that.

Wall's been fine and better than both in most ways. "All the advanced stats support that". Also dealing with a terrible cast and no Beal the past couple weeks.

MonroeFAN
12-21-2015, 01:42 PM
Neither player is better than Wall.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
12-21-2015, 01:51 PM
We are in a golden age for point guards. And have been for a while (where have you been?) Middle of the pack guys now would have been top 10ish before. It's just that the position is so damn deep now, all star caliber talent is actually the average level for that position (regarding starters).

If you don't think Bledsoe and Knight have been impressive then you're either really young and have been spoiled by this golden age of the guard or an absolute pessimist (or know nothing about the game and haven't watched them play, but based on your previous posts I think that's unlikely).

Based on where these guys were the last couple of years, they're playing great.

And where did I say TS% and ppg are the end of basketball analysis? Keep making smart *** remarks in an attempt to belittle my opinion. It's fine. I'll stick to discussions with people who actually want to have them and aren't going to dismiss everything that doesn't fall in line with their own opinion.

Knight is very inconsistent and has tunnel vision. For every couple sweet games he has then turns around and lays a few eggs as well. Coming from a Bucks fan I seen enough of him. Yeah I miss his scoring. But oh well that's life and business when trades happen. Bucks won over Suns last night. Knight only scored 9. Game before that 10. *Yawn* Also don't miss his wildly turnover games where he goes and throws like 5 bad passes for turnovers. Bad as Linsanity. Remember when Lin was turning it over like 7 to 9 times a game with Knicks.

valade16
12-21-2015, 02:02 PM
For anyone interested, here are the side by side comparisons of their years thus far:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=walljo01&y2=2016&p2=thomais02&y3=2016&p3=jacksre01&p4=&p5=&p6=

Clearly IT has had a better than expected year while John Wall has had a sub-par for him year.

Whether IT's surprising year has been so good as to surpass John Wall, I'm not sure I believe that.

ewing
12-21-2015, 02:08 PM
For anyone interested, here are the side by side comparisons of their years thus far:

http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2016&p1=walljo01&y2=2016&p2=thomais02&y3=2016&p3=jacksre01&p4=&p5=&p6=

Clearly IT has had a better than expected year while John Wall has had a sub-par for him year.

Whether IT's surprising year has been so good as to surpass John Wall, I'm not sure I believe that.


IT turned the Celtics season around last year, he performance should not be seen as a big surprise. as for Wall i think this is who he is. What is he doing that isn't par for the course?

tredigs
12-21-2015, 02:09 PM
Wall's scoring on a career high volume on a career high efficiency with a career high PER, ranks 5th in the league among PG's in RPM (the deepest position right now obviously), and I watched his game Saturday, he looked amazing in their win v the Hornets. He's the only thing holding that shell of a team together. The starting wings with him right now are a conglomeration of Kelly Oubre JR, Garrett Temple and Jared Dudley. The team's running an 8 man rotation because they're so shallow. It's ridiculous what he has to work with and he still manages 20 points and 9 assists in sub 36 minutes. IT and Reggie are not at his level. It's a silly comparison.

tredigs
12-21-2015, 02:13 PM
IT turned the Celtics season around last year, he performance should not be seen as a big surprise. as for Wall i think this is who he is. What is he doing that isn't par for the course?
His incredible speed + playmaking ability and his top end defense from the guard position.

How do so many of you underrate Wall? Look at his cast man. This guy has nothing to work with.

ewing
12-21-2015, 02:16 PM
Wall's scoring on a career high volume on a career high efficiency with a career high PER, ranks 5th in the league among points in RPM and I watched his game Saturday, he looked amazing against their win v the Hornets. He's the only thing holding that shell of a team together. The starting wings with him right now are a conglomeration of Kelly Oubre JR, Garrett Temple and Jared Dudley. The team's running an 8 man rotation because they're so shallow. It's ridiculous what he has to work with and he still manages 20 points and 9 assists in sub 36 minutes. IT and Reggie are not at his level. It's a silly comparison.

Well if he is 5th in the league among point guards in real +/- and you watched a game i guess that's that.

ewing
12-21-2015, 02:17 PM
His incredible speed + playmaking ability and his top end defense from the guard position.

How do so many of you underrate Wall? Look at his cast man. This guy has nothing to work with.

Wall has been overrated for 6 years. People are starting to smell the coffee.

tredigs
12-21-2015, 02:17 PM
Well if he is 5th in the league among point guards in real +/- and you watched a game i guess that's that.

Your argument on the other hand. THAT was compelling stuff brotha.


Wall has been overrated for 6 years. People are starting to smell the coffee.
Totally. Put IT in his place. POWER-HOUSE. Watch out Lebron. Wiz are coming.

flea
12-21-2015, 03:35 PM
We are in a golden age for point guards. And have been for a while (where have you been?) Middle of the pack guys now would have been top 10ish before. It's just that the position is so damn deep now, all star caliber talent is actually the average level for that position (regarding starters).

If you don't think Bledsoe and Knight have been impressive then you're either really young and have been spoiled by this golden age of the guard or an absolute pessimist (or know nothing about the game and haven't watched them play, but based on your previous posts I think that's unlikely).

Based on where these guys were the last couple of years, they're playing great.

And where did I say TS% and ppg are the end of basketball analysis? Keep making smart *** remarks in an attempt to belittle my opinion. It's fine. I'll stick to discussions with people who actually want to have them and aren't going to dismiss everything that doesn't fall in line with their own opinion.

It's a golden age because 90% of teams run P&Rs as basically their entire offense. Unless you have Lebron or Chandler Parsons, pretty much all those ballhandlers are going to be backcourt players. That is how teams score these days - Bill Cartwright or Antoine Carr wouldn't come close to 20 PPG these days. Doesn't mean he doesn't have the skill to do it if you play under old rules, just the same as IT wouldn't touch 20 PPG in the 90s.

You have to adjust how you think about guards. Someone like Jeff Teague is a really good PG - passes pretty well, understands his position and the system a lot better than guys like Bledsoe and Lillard, is fast and finishes well (but not elite). Still, he's only middle of the pack because every team has a guy that's either as good as he is at that or someone like Irving who can just score anytime he wants to.

It's not that we're going to have 15-20 PGs active now going into the HOF, it's that the position is different. Same with centers, defense is the most important thing they do now and offense is a gravy. That's why a one-way offensive center being top 3 at his position (like Cousins) is a total joke.

ewing
12-21-2015, 03:56 PM
Btw, last year John Wall lead the NBA in "touches" and time spent with the ball in his hands. I haven't watched the Wiz much this year but both these #s are down and his dribbles per touch are down significantly. Maybe he is getting better. If you have the ball in your hands all the time and you rarely a threat to score during that time b/c you can't shoot it's a big problem. Maybe Wall is waking up a little.

valade16
12-21-2015, 05:12 PM
Wall's scoring on a career high volume on a career high efficiency with a career high PER, ranks 5th in the league among PG's in RPM (the deepest position right now obviously), and I watched his game Saturday, he looked amazing in their win v the Hornets. He's the only thing holding that shell of a team together. The starting wings with him right now are a conglomeration of Kelly Oubre JR, Garrett Temple and Jared Dudley. The team's running an 8 man rotation because they're so shallow. It's ridiculous what he has to work with and he still manages 20 points and 9 assists in sub 36 minutes. IT and Reggie are not at his level. It's a silly comparison.

Well career high efficiency yes but it's 53.8 TS%, which isn't very good. He's also averaging a career high TO%.

Also, Bball-reference's BPM has both Jackson and IT higher and ESPN's EWA also has Jackson and IT higher.

Gander13SM
12-22-2015, 04:12 AM
People can't be serious about Wall?