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zn23
11-30-2015, 10:30 PM
With Los Angeles Lakers star Kobe Bryant announcing his retirement from basketball at the end of the 2015-16 season, attention now turns to Bryant's legacy.

Just five months remain in Kobe's career, so this seems like a good time to ask about where he ranks among the all-time greats. In particular, is he one of the 10 best to play the game?

A close reading of the facts suggests the answer is no. As remarkable as his career has been, Bryant's résumé can't quite compare to that of the league's inner-circle Hall of Famers.

Win shares: Kobe ranks No. 15

Win shares, found at Basketball Reference, are our most complete historic NBA metric. They give us a way to compare players across NBA eras.

Although full box-score stats did not become available until 1977-78, when the league started tracking player turnovers, Basketball Reference estimates turnovers and other stats that were not recorded at the time (including steals and blocks before 1973-74) to come up with approximations for player value throughout league history.

Bryant is currently 15th among NBA players in career win shares (172.5), with an outside chance of surpassing Reggie Miller (174.4) by the end of the season, if he improves his level of play. Because he has started so poorly, Bryant has actually lost 0.6 win shares from his career total so far this season.

Expected championships added: Kobe ranks No. 20

As Miller's high ranking suggests, the problem with using win shares as a historic measuring stick is they tend to reward longevity over quality of play. To better reflect the impact players had on their teams, I've developed a model that relates their win shares each season to a typical team's chances of winning a championship.

This model shows value is exponential rather than linear. For instance, a season with 15 win shares (such as Bryant's 2005-06 campaign) is nearly three times as valuable as one with 10 win shares (such as his 2010-11).

A preliminary version of this model shows Bryant 20th all time in expected championships added (ECA), just behind Larry Bird and ahead of the late Moses Malone.

Why Kobe doesn't rate as well by advanced stats

Bryant comes out slightly worse by this method because of his lack of truly elite statistical seasons. Bryant's best season in terms of win shares, 2005-06, ranks 102nd in NBA history behind, for example, Stephen Curry's 2014-15 campaign.

That's fairly consistent with what other advanced metrics indicate. Bryant's 2005-06 performance did rank 56th all-time in PER, but his best season by my wins above replacement player statistic (2002-03, with 20.4 WAR) ranks 72nd, dating back to 1977-78.

ESPN's real plus-minus (RPM) is even harsher. Because of the need for detailed play-by-play data, RPM is available only since 2000-01, but in that span, Bryant's best rating (plus-6.3 points per 100 possessions in 2007-08) ranks 80th in that span.

These all-in-one metrics are universally picking up that by the standards of all-time great scorers, Bryant was relatively inefficient. Bryant's best season in terms of true shooting percentage (.580 in 2006-07) would rank seventh in Michael Jordan's career, seventh in LeBron James' and behind five of Kevin Durant's seven full seasons.

Since Bryant wasn't an exceptional rebounder or distributor and has never rated especially well statistically as a defender, he would need to be better than his peers as a scorer to provide more value than they did. That was only the case in Bryant's very best seasons.

The verdict

Naturally, the arguments in favor of Bryant's greatness are likely to revolve around the five championships the Lakers won during his career. While it's a bad idea to credit team success to one individual, it is true that Bryant's postseason performance is a point in his favor.

He ranks eighth in career playoff win shares. Factoring in playoff value surely lifts Bryant's all-time rank from 20th, but it's harder to make the case that he should jump all the way into the top 10.

It's not just advanced statistics that are down on Bryant's best seasons. He won only one MVP award, which puts him behind the 12 players (including former Lakers teammate Steve Nash) who won the league's highest honor multiple times.

Although there's a case to be made that Bryant should have won in 2005-06, when he set an NBA record for usage rate and carried a limited Lakers team to the playoffs, Bryant benefited from something of a "lifetime achievement" factor in 2007-08, when he beat Kevin Garnett and Chris Paul for the award.

In terms of the share of MVP votes accumulated over the course of his career, Bryant ranks 11th.

Considering all those factors, I'd ultimately rank Bryant somewhere around the 15th-best player in NBA history. You might move him a few spots in either direction, depending how you value playoff performance versus regular-season success, peak value versus longevity and the league's quality of play over time.

But when it comes to cracking the 10 best NBA players ever, Bryant didn't quite accomplish enough in a career that now has a finish line in sight.

http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14254853/is-kobe-bryant-top-10-all-player-nba

I agree with the article. Kobe is probably around 15th spot.

still1ballin
11-30-2015, 10:32 PM
lol

lakerfan85
11-30-2015, 10:38 PM
lol

Dude every time I see your Sig I ****ing crack up..

AIRMAR72
11-30-2015, 10:45 PM
I agree with the article. Kobe is probably around 15th spot. I've been saying that for yrs kobe NEVER dominated the NBA GAME never those some of the few reason why he only have 1seasonal MVP that was handed to Kobe out of pity the MVP award for 2008 should've went to Chris Paul or Bron. kobe is top 15 when it comes to SG.. Kobe is a star but not superstar

Bostonjorge
11-30-2015, 10:52 PM
So season metrics trump playoff play? One MVP hurts a player but 5 championships is only worth the 15th spot? Terrible article.

Can't take anyone serious who believe Kobe is not a top 10 ever.

More-Than-Most
11-30-2015, 10:55 PM
I have him 8-12

I can see the argument both ways.

Jamiecballer
11-30-2015, 11:36 PM
I agree with the article. Kobe is probably around 15th spot.

i don't have a precise number in mind but he's not a top 10 player for me either.

TheIlladelph16
11-30-2015, 11:44 PM
If he's not a Top 10 player of all time, which he has a very good argument for, he's pretty damn close. In no order...

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Wilt
Lebron
Hakeem
Duncan

I would have all of those players above Kobe. He's right there towards the back end of the Top 10 and has a case above a couple guys there.

More-Than-Most
12-01-2015, 12:02 AM
If he's not a Top 10 player of all time, which he has a very good argument for, he's pretty damn close. In no order...

Jordan
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Shaq
Wilt
Lebron
Hakeem
Duncan

I would have all of those players above Kobe. He's right there towards the back end of the Top 10 and has a case above a couple guys there.

i think i would have him above bird but wouldnt argue against bird... the rest i 100 percent agree with.

lamzoka
12-01-2015, 12:11 AM
Nothing to see here. We all know the guy is overrated.

ink
12-01-2015, 12:23 AM
Good article. Hard to refute. Good to see proven what so many already thought.

Wade n Fade
12-01-2015, 12:57 AM
What I enjoy about advanced metrics is that can contradict the eye test. The evidence shows Kobe is a great player, but not among the top 10 based on career PER, win shares, etc. If I had to put the ball in someone's hands at the end of the game, in their prime, Kobe would not be among my first 5 players in my mind. I would play the mathematical odds. Ray Allen and MJ would give you better chances to win a game at the buzzer.

Wade n Fade
12-01-2015, 01:02 AM
Nothing to see here. We all know the guy is overrated.

I agree he is overrated. People hate contrarian opinions that Kobe isn't a top 10 player, that he's extremely overrated, and he isn't as clutch as people think. Imagine it from their shoes, they watch a guy have great moments, dominate games with one of the best duos of all time, and then people telling them that the math doesn't support what their eyes showed them. Some of the Kobe fans are like this: they remind me of the folks that pay for Dial Up Internet in 2015. They don't want to get with the times because it is contrary to their entire experience. Advanced metrics are here to stay. They despise the Haberstrohs.

YAALREADYKNO
12-01-2015, 01:23 AM
Daryl Morey?

Sly Guy
12-01-2015, 02:28 AM
I never thought I'd be arguing in favor of kobe (he lost me the moment he ran shaq outta town), but I think a lot of the reason why his advanced stats suffer is simply because he had the endure some rebuilding laker teams, causing his usage to go up, and his efficiency to go down. I don't think I'd put him top 10 regardless, but if he's outside the top 10, he *just* outside.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-01-2015, 03:41 AM
I never thought I'd be arguing in favor of kobe (he lost me the moment he ran shaq outta town), but I think a lot of the reason why his advanced stats suffer is simply because he had the endure some rebuilding laker teams, causing his usage to go up, and his efficiency to go down. I don't think I'd put him top 10 regardless, but if he's outside the top 10, he *just* outside.
Uh, actually his advanced stats went up when Shaq left.

The articles main point is to say that Kobe doesn't have as many win shares as guys like Malone, Stockton, Reggie Miller, Dirk, KG, Barkley, Robinson, Julius Irving etc so that should knock him down. The article then says that you should not take into account team success.Talk about having your cake and eating it to. (Whatever that means)

Do you people know how a win share is calculated? Do you understand that there are two main factors into how you accumulate these win shares? Your teammates, and your teams scheme effect your win shares. John Stockton and Karl Malone ran the pick and roll nearly every time down the floor. They accumulated the most counting numbers and thus were awarded the most win shares for that team. Are they better players than Shaq? No they were not. They were really the only two talented guys on the team so they didn't win anything but got to put up good numbers. Shaq was always surrounded by good players so he could defer to them at times. That drops his win shares but raises team success. Same with Kobe. His win shares went to where a top 3 guy in win shares like Malone was for the 4 years after Shaq left at about 14 per year. Kobes team success goes down but his individual advanced stats flourish.


Reggie Miller is not as good as Kobe. But he has more win shares. Why? Because Reggie was the main focal point on everyone of his teams for 17 years. Kobe took a back seat to Shaq for his first 7 years of his career. Then had Pau, Bynum, Odom. So Kobe doesn't get credit of the win shares he could have accumulated and cant lean on the team success that flourished due to his sharing of the responsibilities. Got ya:rolleyes:

Par for the course type of biased atticle. But there are only 4 players with more win shares than Kobe that have had equal or greater team success to go with it. That would be Jordan, Kareem, Duncan, and Shaq. Lebron would be there as well if he faired better in the finals. And Magic suffers the same thing as Kobe. Played on great teams so his teammates produced to steal away win shares. Magic is at#22

Jeffy25
12-01-2015, 03:52 AM
Uh, actually his advanced stats went up when Shaq left.

The articles main point is to say that Kobe doesn't have as many win shares as guys like Malone, Stockton, Reggie Miller, Dirk, KG, Barkley, Robinson, Julius Irving etc so that should knock him down. The article then says that you should not take into account team success.Talk about having your cake and eating it to. (Whatever that means)

Do you people know how a win share is calculated? Do you understand that there are two main factors into how you accumulate these win shares? Your teammates, and your teams scheme effect your win shares. John Stockton and Karl Malone ran the pick and roll nearly every time down the floor. The accumulated the most counting numbers and thus were awarded the most win shares for that team. Are they better players than Shaq? No they were not. They were really the only two talented guys on the team so they didn't win anything but got to put up good numbers. Shaq was always surrounded by good players so he could defer to them at times. That drops his win shares but raises team success. Same with Kobe. His win shares went to where a top 3 guy in win shares like Malone was for the 4 years after Shaq left at about 14 per year. Kobes team success goes down but his individual advanced stats flourish.

Reggie Miller is not as good as Kobe. But he has more win shares. Why? Because Reggie was the main focal point on everyone of his teams for 17 years. Kobe took a back seat to Shaq for his first 7 years of his career. Then had Pau, Bynum, Odom. So Kobe doesn't get credit of win shares and cant lean on team success.

Par for the course type of biased atticle. But there are only 4 players with more win shares than Kobe that have had equal or greater team success to go with it. That would be Jordan, Kareem, Duncan, and Shaq. Lebron would be there as well if he faired better in the finals. And Magic suffers the same thing as Kobe. Played on great teams so his teammates produced to steal away win shares. Magic is at#22

Just as you said in your first paragraph.

You can't give him credit for the team success, and then say he doesn't have the numbers because of Shaq and his team mates.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't issue.

It comes down to this. Kobe wasn't as efficient of a scorer as other top 10 players, and he wasn't good enough at the other ends (like rebounding, distributing, or defense) to make up for his lack of success as a scorer.

He should probably get a nod for the playoff boosts that he provided, but it isn't enough in my opinion to put him ahead of many others that should belong ahead of him.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-01-2015, 04:00 AM
Just as you said in your first paragraph.

You can't give him credit for the team success, and then say he doesn't have the numbers because of Shaq and his team mates.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't issue.

It comes down to this. Kobe wasn't as efficient of a scorer as other top 10 players, and he wasn't good enough at the other ends (like rebounding, distributing, or defense) to make up for his lack of success as a scorer.

He should probably get a nod for the playoff boosts that he provided, but it isn't enough in my opinion to put him ahead of many others that should belong ahead of him.
Kobe's ts% was 1% worse than Jordans, better than Russells, better than Wilts, and almost identical to Duncan, Hakeem and Birds. He is a very good passer and rebounder for a shooting guard. And he was a very good defender. And he hardly turned the ball over for someone of his usage. I don't know what you are talking about.

Only player in NBA history to have 30,000 points, 6,000 assist, and 6,000 rebounds. His per game averages are right on par with MJ's when adjusted for pace. (Jordan's Bulls averaged 9 more possessions than Kobe's Lakers)

And I think you are remembering 30 to 37 year old Kobe defense. When he was in his prime he was a very good defender. Not to the tune of 9 first team all defenses but don't let the disdain of him winning undeserved awards sway you to the opposite end of the spectrum in thinking that he stunk cause that would be just as wrong

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-01-2015, 04:12 AM
Just as you said in your first paragraph.

You can't give him credit for the team success, and then say he doesn't have the numbers because of Shaq and his team mates.

It's a damned if you do, damned if you don't issue.

It comes down to this. Kobe wasn't as efficient of a scorer as other top 10 players, and he wasn't good enough at the other ends (like rebounding, distributing, or defense) to make up for his lack of success as a scorer.

He should probably get a nod for the playoff boosts that he provided, but it isn't enough in my opinion to put him ahead of many others that should belong ahead of him.

Also, I wasn't being the hypocrite. I was pointing out the authors hypocrisy. I was showing how he wants to only look at win shares, which is a team stat, and not look at team success, which is a team stat. Your teammates and teams offensive scheme impact your win shares, and they also impact your team success. So he is basically pulling a magician act and trying to use slight of hand to distract you. "Look over here at the win shares" while he slides Kobes success behind the curtain.

More-Than-Most
12-01-2015, 04:14 AM
You just made me realize something... Lebron could end up with 35000 points... 10000 rebounds and 10000 assists... :speechless:

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-01-2015, 04:25 AM
It almost seems like people would have MORE respect for Kobe if he had crappy teammates that ran a pick and roll offense where he was responsible to either make a basket or be the assist man. He would have never won anything but his box score and advanced stats would have been marvelous. We seen him play that way for 2 years and his PER, WS, WS/48, TS% all went up. But then he goes back into the triangle offense which is supposed to spread responsibility around and he goes back to what he was before Shaq left. Kobe got free reign for 2 years at the age of 25 and 26. League history has shown that players best statistical seasons are at age 27 and then decline slowly from then on. Kobe played good soldier for his first 7 years and played within a restrictive offense (if your not the post man) that stymied what he could have done. He then played again in that offense, once again for a team with championship aspirations.

So if you want Kobes numbers to be better with less team success, that says more about you than Kobe. Cause he showed everyone what he could do with the breaks off.

Demon11
12-01-2015, 04:29 AM
Uh, actually his advanced stats went up when Shaq left.

The articles main point is to say that Kobe doesn't have as many win shares as guys like Malone, Stockton, Reggie Miller, Dirk, KG, Barkley, Robinson, Julius Irving etc so that should knock him down. The article then says that you should not take into account team success.Talk about having your cake and eating it to. (Whatever that means)

Do you people know how a win share is calculated? Do you understand that there are two main factors into how you accumulate these win shares? Your teammates, and your teams scheme effect your win shares. John Stockton and Karl Malone ran the pick and roll nearly every time down the floor. They accumulated the most counting numbers and thus were awarded the most win shares for that team. Are they better players than Shaq? No they were not. They were really the only two talented guys on the team so they didn't win anything but got to put up good numbers. Shaq was always surrounded by good players so he could defer to them at times. That drops his win shares but raises team success. Same with Kobe. His win shares went to where a top 3 guy in win shares like Malone was for the 4 years after Shaq left at about 14 per year. Kobes team success goes down but his individual advanced stats flourish.


Reggie Miller is not as good as Kobe. But he has more win shares. Why? Because Reggie was the main focal point on everyone of his teams for 17 years. Kobe took a back seat to Shaq for his first 7 years of his career. Then had Pau, Bynum, Odom. So Kobe doesn't get credit of win shares and cant lean on team success.

Par for the course type of biased atticle. But there are only 4 players with more win shares than Kobe that have had equal or greater team success to go with it. That would be Jordan, Kareem, Duncan, and Shaq. Lebron would be there as well if he faired better in the finals. And Magic suffers the same thing as Kobe. Played on great teams so his teammates produced to steal away win shares. Magic is at#22

There are many things in this article other than winshares. Another point you could add, is that Kobe is one of the few goats who's numbers actually get worse once he enters the playoffs.

More-Than-Most
12-01-2015, 04:30 AM
It almost seems like people would have MORE respect for Kobe if he had crappy teammates that ran a pick and roll offense where he was responsible to either make a basket or be the assist man. He would have never won anything but his box score and advanced stats would have been marvelous. We seen him play that way for 2 years and his PER, WS, WS/48, TS% all went up. But then he goes back into the triangle offense which is supposed to spread responsibility around and he goes back to what he was before Shaq left. Kobe got free reign for 2 years at the age of 25 and 26. League history has shown that players best statistical seasons are at age 27 and then decline slowly from then on. Kobe played good soldier for his first 7 years and played within a restrictive offense (if your not the post man) that stymied what he could have done. He then played again in that offense, once again for a team with championship aspirations.

So if you want Kobes numbers to be better with less team success, that says more about you than Kobe. Cause he showed everyone what he could do with the breaks off.

He had Shaq and lucked into stealing Gasol :shrug:

I have Kobe top 8 or so but lets not act like he didnt have insane teams around him his entire tenure when he did win and had he gone the route of the assists in the years where his teams were great he still wins the championships because of the help he had around him

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-01-2015, 04:36 AM
You just made me realize something... Lebron could end up with 35000 points... 10000 rebounds and 10000 assists... :speechless:

Well... lets say he played 20 years. Which would give him 8 more years including this one. He would have to average 437 rebounds per year and 462 assist per year. Which is only about 5.5 rebounds and assist per game if he played all 82 games for the next 8 years. Its possible. Dude is an all time great

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-01-2015, 04:41 AM
He had Shaq and lucked into stealing Gasol :shrug:

I have Kobe top 8 or so but lets not act like he didnt have insane teams around him his entire tenure when he did win and had he gone the route of the assists in the years where his teams were great he still wins the championships because of the help he had around him
You're missing my entire point. I am not throwing Kobe's championships in anyone's face. I am saying that the author and all the minions in this thread nodding their heads like bobble heads punish Kobe for always playing with good teams by looking at his stats, and then in the same breath don't want to acknowledge the fact that his stats were stunted for the good of the team and in the name of team success. He put up insane numbers while he was not playing for rings. There is no reason to believe he could not have done equal or more from ages 20 though 28.

Mr_Jones
12-01-2015, 04:52 AM
lol

my name beetlejuice could be could be.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-01-2015, 04:56 AM
There are many things in this article other than winshares. Another point you could add, is that Kobe is one of the few goats who's numbers actually get worse once he enters the playoffs.

Like what? TS%? Already showed Kobe is on par with all the greats.

And your other totally made up statement regarding Kobe in the playoffs. Where did you hear that? Or is it homemade BS? Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Kobe are all the same when it comes to playoffs.

Wilt regular season PER 26, post season 22. TS% went from 549 to 524
Kareem regular season PER 24.6 post 24.1 TS 592 down to 571
Magic PER 24.1 down to 23. TS% 610 down to 595
Bird PER 23.5 down to 21.4 Ts% 564 down to 551
Kobe PER 23.1 down to 22.4 TS% 552 down to 541

If anything, Kobe played relatively the same from regular to post season.

Jordan and Hakeem were really the only players that can say their performance went up during the post season. Everyone else had a slight to big decline
Shaq and Lebron play on par with their regular seasons. But Kobe is not the only all time great to see a slight decline in the playoffs as you would like to infer.

Demon11
12-01-2015, 05:16 AM
Like what? TS%? Already showed Kobe is on par with all the greats.

And your other totally made up statement regarding Kobe in the playoffs. Where did you hear that? Or is it homemade BS? Wilt, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and Kobe are all the same when it comes to playoffs.

Wilt regular season PER 26, post season 22. TS% went from 549 to 524
Kareem regular season PER 24.6 post 24.1 TS 592 down to 571
Magic PER 24.1 down to 23. TS% 610 down to 595
Bird PER 23.5 down to 21.4 Ts% 564 down to 551
Kobe PER 23.1 down to 22.4 TS% 552 down to 541

If anything, Kobe played relatively the same from regular to post season.

Jordan is really the only player that can say his performance went up during the post season. Everyone else had a slight to big decline

I stand corrected. I'd change that into comparison with Lebron and MJ.. but then that wouldn't match the point.

I Dont Mean To Knock On Kobe..

I have him as 12 on my person list. So it's not really far off and i Feel Kobe is a legendary player regardless.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-01-2015, 05:24 AM
I stand corrected. I'd change that into comparison with Lebron and MJ.. but then that wouldn't match the point.

I Dont Mean To Knock On Kobe..

I have him as 12 on my person list. So it's not really far off and i Feel Kobe is a legendary player regardless.

Well, with Lebron and MJ, they are already better players than him without playoffs taken into account. But even though MJ played better, it was only slightly. Lebron actually plays a little worse but its not so much of a decline that it was worth mentioning. But his PER goes down from 27.6 to 27.4 and his TS% goes down from 581 to 565. Hakeem is the only one I see a marked improvement from regular to post. His PER went up from 23.6 to 25.7 and TS% up from 553 to 569

Demon11
12-01-2015, 05:32 AM
Well, with Lebron and MJ, they are already better players than him without playoffs taken into account. But even though MJ played better, it was only slightly. Lebron actually plays a little worse but its not so much of a decline that it was worth mentioning. But his PER goes down from 27.6 to 27.4 and his TS% goes down from 581 to 565. Hakeem is the only one I see a marked improvement from regular to post. His PER went up from 23.6 to 25.7 and TS% up from 553 to 569

I would bet it goes over after this year though

tsubibo
12-01-2015, 05:38 AM
Its hard to put Kobe inside the top ten. Maybe an 11th?

nickdymez
12-01-2015, 05:57 AM
PSD as a collective has such a low basketball iq.

PurpleLynch
12-01-2015, 06:19 AM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4d5KovCbU8w

This is the only logic answer to these Kobe's threads :)

PhillyFaninLA
12-01-2015, 07:16 AM
Magic, Shaq, Wilt, Kareem all better than Kobe you cannot be the 5th best player (at best) in franchise history and be in the top 10 all time

kdspurman
12-01-2015, 10:31 AM
Nothing to see here. We all know the guy is overrated.

A guy who many have at the very least a top 10-15 player of all time is overrated?

AIRMAR72
12-01-2015, 10:49 AM
uh, actually his advanced stats went up when shaq left.

The articles main point is to say that kobe doesn't have as many win shares as guys like malone, stockton, reggie miller, dirk, kg, barkley, robinson, julius irving etc so that should knock him down. The article then says that you should not take into account team success.talk about having your cake and eating it to. (whatever that means)

do you people know how a win share is calculated? Do you understand that there are two main factors into how you accumulate these win shares? Your teammates, and your teams scheme effect your win shares. John stockton and karl malone ran the pick and roll nearly every time down the floor. They accumulated the most counting numbers and thus were awarded the most win shares for that team. Are they better players than shaq? No they were not. They were really the only two talented guys on the team so they didn't win anything but got to put up good numbers. Shaq was always surrounded by good players so he could defer to them at times. That drops his win shares but raises team success. Same with kobe. His win shares went to where a top 3 guy in win shares like malone was for the 4 years after shaq left at about 14 per year. Kobes team success goes down but his individual advanced stats flourish.


Reggie miller is not as good as kobe. But he has more win shares. Why? Because reggie was the main focal point on everyone of his teams for 17 years. Kobe took a back seat to shaq for his first 7 years of his career. Then had pau, bynum, odom. So kobe doesn't get credit of the win shares he could have accumulated and cant lean on the team success that flourished due to his sharing of the responsibilities. Got ya:rolleyes:

Par for the course type of biased atticle. But there are only 4 players with more win shares than kobe that have had equal or greater team success to go with it. That would be jordan, kareem, duncan, and shaq. Lebron would be there as well if he faired better in the finals. And magic suffers the same thing as kobe. Played on great teams so his teammates produced to steal away win shares. Magic is at#22
rubbish!!

HoopsDrive
12-01-2015, 11:12 AM
Laughing hard at all of you saying 'top 15 player' like it's a bad thing. If that's a player's lowest ranking, well then, that's simply ****ing amazing.

Some of you are so desperate to find evidence to put the guy down a few that I think you're missing the big picture. No matter how much you dig up, no matter how many different metrics you come up with to further debase (mind you, his numbers are still ****ing outstanding), Kobe is still one of the greatest players to step into a basketball court and that is unquestionable. Of course I don't expect the most ardent of haters to admit it. Just keep on mentioning 'not top 10, top 15' so you can sleep better at night.

ink
12-01-2015, 11:27 AM
Laughing hard at all of you saying 'top 15 player' like it's a bad thing. If that's a player's lowest ranking, well then, that's simply ****ing amazing.

Some of you are so desperate to find evidence to put the guy down a few that I think you're missing the big picture. No matter how much you dig up, no matter how many different metrics you come up with to further debase (mind you, his numbers are still ****ing outstanding), Kobe is still one of the greatest players to step into a basketball court and that is unquestionable. Of course I don't expect the most ardent of haters to admit it. Just keep on mentioning 'not top 10, top 15' so you can sleep better at night.

Be careful: when most of your post is aimed at other people here you're crossing the line into baiting. Just because people don't give Kobe enough credit in your eyes doesn't mean you need to attack them. Same is true from the other side. Let's keep the discussion focused on the topic and not on other posters and the thread will be fine. Thanks.

HoopsDrive
12-01-2015, 11:40 AM
Be careful: when most of your post is aimed at other people here you're crossing the line into baiting. Just because people don't give Kobe enough credit in your eyes doesn't mean you need to attack them. Same is true from the other side. Let's keep the discussion focused on the topic and not on other posters and the thread will be fine. Thanks.

I got a bit carried away admittedly, although my intention was not to bait.

In more refined terms, the feel I get from detractors is that somehow a top 15 ranking is a bad thing and that actually made me chuckle.

Jamiecballer
12-01-2015, 11:50 AM
PSD as a collective has such a low basketball iq.

i think PSD has a pretty good handle on Kobe. it seems that if you average it out most people would have him in or around 10, which is more generous than i would give him, but not by much. if you remove star power from the equation and judge simply from what he accomplished i think it's a very reasonable and impressive spot to land.

nickdymez
12-01-2015, 11:52 AM
i think PSD has a pretty good handle on Kobe. it seems that if you average it out most people would have him in or around 10, which is more generous than i would give him, but not by much. if you remove star power from the equation and judge simply from what he accomplished i think it's a very reasonable and impressive spot to land.
He accomplished more than almost anyone in NBA history.

jerellh528
12-01-2015, 11:53 AM
Be careful: when most of your post is aimed at other people here you're crossing the line into baiting. Just because people don't give Kobe enough credit in your eyes doesn't mean you need to attack them. Same is true from the other side. Let's keep the discussion focused on the topic and not on other posters and the thread will be fine. Thanks.

Lol can't believe you go after this post which was decent and leave all the other Anti-Kobe bait posts alone. Bias.

KnicksorBust
12-01-2015, 12:09 PM
MJ
Kareem
Magic
Duncan
Kobe

I have him at #5. But I value his longevity and playoff success a lot more than the article.

Chronz
12-01-2015, 12:17 PM
There are alot of intangibles we have to include for Kobe. Moreso than most greats, some of them aren't really intangible just less precise measures. Like his ability to enhance the offensive rebounding of his bigmen simply because he attracts so much attention. His defense was underrated from 99-03.

DODGERS&LAKERS
12-01-2015, 01:35 PM
rubbish!!
How can i argue with sound logic like that?

Tony_Starks
12-01-2015, 02:05 PM
The funniest part is how people try to say Kobe is ONLY the 15th best ever as if that is supposed to be some earth shattering diss.

Even if you foolishly believe Kobe to be the 15-20th best player in your bitter heart of hearts you still have to begrudgingly say "one of the greatest players ever" after his name....no matter where you place him.

lakerfan85
12-01-2015, 02:29 PM
Lol can't believe you go after this post which was decent and leave all the other Anti-Kobe bait posts alone. Bias.

He clearly is..

ink
12-01-2015, 02:29 PM
Lol can't believe you go after this post which was decent and leave all the other Anti-Kobe bait posts alone. Bias.

I did say that both sides need to stay away from the personal.

ink
12-01-2015, 02:31 PM
He clearly is..

I'm fine with acknowledging I'm not a Kobe fan. But that doesn't change what I said. If people stick to talking about Kobe without attacking each other, the quality of the thread will be higher and it will stay open.

ink
12-01-2015, 02:32 PM
I got a bit carried away admittedly, although my intention was not to bait.

In more refined terms, the feel I get from detractors is that somehow a top 15 ranking is a bad thing and that actually made me chuckle.

Thanks man. You seemed like a reasonable poster so I chose your post to make the request with. Cheers.

Vinylman
12-01-2015, 02:36 PM
another self - serving article rationalizing the overuse of AS...

no one should be surprised on the authors stance based upon his background... nor should anyone give great weight to his opinions...

Jamiecballer
12-01-2015, 02:36 PM
He accomplished more than almost anyone in NBA history.
Wrong. Not even close.

Jamiecballer
12-01-2015, 02:37 PM
The funniest part is how people try to say Kobe is ONLY the 15th best ever as if that is supposed to be some earth shattering diss.

Even if you foolishly believe Kobe to be the 15-20th best player in your bitter heart of hearts you still have to begrudgingly say "one of the greatest players ever" after his name....no matter where you place him.
Agree.

zn23
12-01-2015, 02:38 PM
Nothing wrong with being ranked around 15th best... Actually it's amazing tbh.

But let's not overrate him by putting him in the top 10. That was the point of the article.

Vinylman
12-01-2015, 02:38 PM
Wrong. Not even close.

really? who has accomplished more and in what way have they accomplished more?

nickdymez
12-01-2015, 02:38 PM
Wrong. Not even close.
Lmao. Ok, you got it

Shlumpledink
12-01-2015, 03:07 PM
No one is hated more than Kobe, its funny. He gets the most emotional votes for and against, its really bizarre.

Scoots
12-01-2015, 03:24 PM
The Lakers fan mindset is a funny thing ... they claim Wilt's whole career even though he played his 5 worst seasons for the Lakers.

Vinylman
12-01-2015, 03:37 PM
The Lakers fan mindset is a funny thing ... they claim Wilt's whole career even though he played his 5 worst seasons for the Lakers.

Don't disagree that Wilt wasn't really a laker but your point to support it is kinda equally dumb....

that his last 5 years in the league were his worse. I am sure that never happened to anyone else in NBA history

mngopher35
12-01-2015, 04:13 PM
If you look at all the players with 2 fmvps in their career Willis Reed is the only one not regularly ranked in the top 10 (and he is a clear outlier compared to others whereas Kobe fits in). Kobe is tied for the most all nba first team selections with Malone at 11 (and 15 total all nba selections I believe). You can say the same about the defensive awards too but imo those weren't as deserved so I will just say he was at that level for a good stretch at least. He is # 11 in MVP award shares with a little jump between him and the next person. On top of this he is right in line with Wilt/Duncan/Shaq and ahead of Hakeem in this category. This ranks him very high overall when it comes to accolades.

When it comes to WS Kobe may not be in the top 10 for RS but in the playoffs he is #8 and post-season is more important imo. I think he might not match up quite as well statistically as other greats at their peak but over a 13 year span he was one of the best players in the game while putting up very good stats that are likely top 15-20 worthy still as the article mentioned.

So basically I think it is possible to look at these stats and still come to the conclusion that Kobe is a top 10 player based on everything he has done in his career. His accolades and longevity probably put him above most and would have him around the top 5 area. Stats/impact probably have him a bit outside of the top 10 but still point to him being pretty close say top 15ish range. While I think his defense as a whole could be overrated it is still a positive to add to the stats when finding impact. Combine that and you have a player who is borderline top 10 who probably lands inside more than outside.

Jamiecballer
12-01-2015, 04:18 PM
really? who has accomplished more and in what way have they accomplished more?


Lmao. Ok, you got it

i know where you guys are going with this but if it's a conversation about being decorated it doesn't mean all that much to me. i'm interested in what the player actually did themselves on the court. obviously even that has ties to others on the floor but at least we can isolate what a player did instead of what his team did. there are plenty more accomplished players. MJ, Magic, Kareem, Lebron, Duncan, Hakeem, Bird, Russell and maybe a few more. Kobe is a sure-fire HOF but not basketball royalty.

ink
12-01-2015, 04:39 PM
Nothing wrong with being ranked around 15th best... Actually it's amazing tbh.

But let's not overrate him by putting him in the top 10.

That's exactly what I got out of the article.

Scoots
12-01-2015, 04:45 PM
Don't disagree that Wilt wasn't really a laker but your point to support it is kinda equally dumb....

that his last 5 years in the league were his worse. I am sure that never happened to anyone else in NBA history

The point was that if his best 5 years were with the Lakers they would have a point. But that wasn't the case.

NFLNBA
12-01-2015, 04:52 PM
A lot of his stats suffered because he played 20 yrs lmao he has had 3 awful years with awful stats. He should have retired at 15/17 years prob right after his Achilles injury but a legend does not want to go out like that. He was still averaging 27 a game at year 15. That Achilles Rupture really ruined him. People here said Kobe never dominated the game are most ridiculous fans or just hate the man so much to put your pride aside. 2000-20009 he was hands down best player. The man should have had a couple more MVP's. If people really think Nash deserved the MVP over him when he averaged 36Pts a game are high as a kite. Kobe was robbed and i think we all know it was because he was hated and the colorado affair case. The man did things the great MJ couldnt do and thats saying something. Kobe had "8" straight 40 pt games!! Put down 81 pts which most will tell you is more impressive than Wilts 100 because Kobe was perimeter while wilt was a man among boys. Top 3 in scoring, best laker of all-time yet you have magic in over him, 2nd best SG ever yet you dont have him in top 10? Most all-star games, tied for most all-nba teams, all-defense teams with 9. and longevity is crucial IMO. 20 years is INSANE! Lebron James ring chases...goes to WADES team with Bosh then when he uses up their prime...leave for Kyrie and Love, dude has worst finals record of all-time at 2-7 yet he is in your top 10 lmfao. Kobe 5-7 in finals.....James 2-7 in finals LMFAO im no math expert but one of these is FAILING Most experts and all players have him in top 10 hands down. Pretty sure they know a little more. Just ask MJ, Magic, current players like Lebron and Durrant, and even table hosts like shaq, berry, miller, ect ect ALL SAY TOP 10

FraziersKnicks
12-01-2015, 04:53 PM
As much as I dislike Kobe, I do find it hard to not put him in the top 10.

Jordan
Kareem
Wilt
Shaq
Timmy
LeBron
Hakeem
Magic
Bird

Those are all locks for me being above Kobe, but I struggle to put Robertson, Russell etc. above Kobe, bumping him out of the top 10.

I actually think the top 10 players ever is quite an easy, unanimous group of the guys I just listed but everyone's always gonna have different opinions.

lamzoka
12-01-2015, 05:31 PM
A guy who many have at the very least a top 10-15 player of all time is overrated?

I said he's overrated because most people have him in their top 10, some laker fans even said he's the 2nd GOAT.Me personally i would put him on the low 20s

The guy made the all defensive team 12x. really? when did kobe become Ron Artest in his prime on the defensive end? He wasn't a great defender, he wasn't a great rebounder, he wasn't a great passer, he wasn't as clutch as ESPN and his fans made it seem. The guy laid more bricks than any other player that ever touches a basketball.



KOBE'S NBA RECORDS

NBA record for most missed shots in a regular season

NBA record for most career FG misses

NBA record for most missed buzzer beaters

NBA record for most missed shots in a finals series

NBA record for most missed shots in a playoffs series

NBA record only finals MVP to not shoot above 50% in a single game (He did it 2009 and 2010)

NBA record for worst shooting performance by any finals MVP in history (40%)

NBA record of the top 10 scorers of all to time Kobe has the lowest shooting %

NBA record there are only 13 games in history where someone shot below 50% and reach 50 points. Kobe is
responsible for 7 of those 13 games

Kobe's selfishness and ego cost the Lakers the title in 2004

Shaq averaged 26.6 points per game with a .631 FG %, while Kobe averaged 22.6 points per game with a [B] .381 FG%. But he still took nearly 6 shots more than Shaq a game.

Kobe decided that he was going to be the man, even if it cost the team.

Phil Jackson‘s book “The Last Season: A Team in Search of Its Soul,” in Kobe’s exit interview with him Kobe said, “I’m tired of being a sidekick.”

He was willing to do whatever it takes to get that finals MVP. He was tired of Shaq winning it every year

NFLNBA
12-01-2015, 05:43 PM
Pretty fair video made today. Smith has Kobe at 9, Skip has Kobe at 10. I dont agree with LJ being in list but i agree with rest of their opinions. We are comparing career numbers where lebron has yet to have those 5 years where he loses his prime. I also want to say 2-7 in finals is pathetic. If anyone actually watched kobe when he was averaging 36 Pts, 5 Reb, 5 Ast, on 45%FG, 35%3pt, 88%FT yet still loses MVP to Nash lmfao people hated kobe because of the Colorado incident and his arrogance, Lebron and this new generation of flopping, teaming up, flagrant fouls that used to be good hard fouls has me hating this NBA so im prob bias but i loved the old school style Kobe played with


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iyL5OxZQyc

NFLNBA
12-01-2015, 06:09 PM
I said he's overrated because most people have him in their top 10, some laker fans even said he's the 2nd GOAT.Me personally i would put him on the low 20s

The guy made the all defensive team 12x. really? when did kobe become Ron Artest in his prime on the defensive end? He wasn't a great defender, he wasn't a great rebounder, he wasn't a great passer, he wasn't as clutch as ESPN and his fans made it seem. The guy laid more bricks than any other player that ever touches a basketball.



KOBE'S NBA RECORDS

NBA record for most missed shots in a regular season

NBA record for most career FG misses

NBA record for most missed buzzer beaters

NBA record for most missed shots in a finals series

NBA record for most missed shots in a playoffs series

NBA record only finals MVP to not shoot above 50% in a single game (He did it 2009 and 2010)

NBA record for worst shooting performance by any finals MVP in history (40%)

NBA record of the top 10 scorers of all to time Kobe has the lowest shooting %

NBA record there are only 13 games in history where someone shot below 50% and reach 50 points. Kobe is
responsible for 7 of those 13 games

Kobe's selfishness and ego cost the Lakers the title in 2004

Shaq averaged 26.6 points per game with a .631 FG %, while Kobe averaged 22.6 points per game with a [B] .381 FG%. But he still took nearly 6 shots more than Shaq a game.

Kobe decided that he was going to be the man, even if it cost the team.

Phil Jackson‘s book “The Last Season: A Team in Search of Its Soul,” in Kobe’s exit interview with him Kobe said, “I’m tired of being a sidekick.”

He was willing to do whatever it takes to get that finals MVP. He was tired of Shaq winning it every year

It is funny you bring these numbers up lol the man played 20 yrs. MJ played 15, Havlicek played 16, Malone played 18, Baylor 13 yrs, Wilkins 17 years, Iverson 15 years, Kareem 19 years, Dirk 16 years. Kobe is not far apart from these men who played 7-1 years less than him. The krazy thing is look at all these names...all of them are HOFers and greats lol If MJ played 5 more years, if Baylor played 7 more years, if Havlicek played 4 more years does kobe have the #1 spot?

Kobe has played 220 playoff games......MJ only 179........malone 193......Kareem is ONLY star player with more playoff games than Kobe. Fisher and Horry are both 1 and 2 in appearances but they of-course were not 1 or 2 scoring options.

If your are a player like Kobe or MJ the player who plays more games will have more missed shots.....add 5-7 years and the numbers are obscured

Same with career stats...kobe played a lot more years past his prime than MJ ect.....it is only natural your career FG% and stats take a huge hit.

lamzoka
12-01-2015, 06:30 PM
It is funny you bring these numbers up lol the man played 20 yrs. MJ played 15, Havlicek played 16, Malone played 18, Baylor 13 yrs, Wilkins 17 years, Iverson 15 years, Kareem 19 years, Dirk 16 years. Kobe is not far apart from these men who played 7-1 years less than him. The krazy thing is look at all these names...all of them are HOFers and greats lol If MJ played 5 more years, if Baylor played 7 more years, if Havlicek played 4 more years does kobe have the #1 spot?

Kobe has played 220 playoff games......MJ only 179........malone 193......Kareem is ONLY star player with more playoff games than Kobe. Fisher and Horry are both 1 and 2 in appearances but they of-course were not 1 or 2 scoring options.

If your are a player like Kobe or MJ the player who plays more games will have more missed shots.....add 5-7 years and the numbers are obscured

Same with career stats...kobe played a lot more years past his prime than MJ ect.....it is only natural your career FG% and stats take a huge hit.

Bro Kobe was a non-efficient chucker. For example MJ attempted less FGs than Kobe but he made a lot more than him.

NFLNBA
12-01-2015, 07:06 PM
Bro Kobe was a non-efficient chucker. For example MJ attempted less FGs than Kobe but he made a lot more than him.

You are wrong and dont make statements on facts

Stats dont lie people......you want actual factual information?

MJ - 15 Years - 24,537 FGA

Kobe - 15 years - 21,370 FGA

Jordan put up 3,167 more shot attempts in equal years. 3,167 is about 2 years of play in shot attempts.

numba1CHANGsta
12-01-2015, 07:11 PM
How is Kobe not a top 10 player?

11-time 1st Team All-NBA (tied most all time)
9-time 1st Team All-Defense (tied most all time)
MVP Award Shares: 11 times in the top 5, 11th all time in MVP shares

Kobe is easily a top 10 player all time

In no order:

MJ
Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Kobe
Duncan
Bird
LeBron
Wilt
Russell
Hakeem

I think these 11 players are no question the top players all time. With Shaq, Duncan, Kobe, LeBron getting into the top 10 over the past years, it pushes Bird down to 11 IMO. There's 5-6 centers in the top 10 all time list, of course they're going to be there because they can dominate more than guards. But I can't think of any other guards other than MJ, Magic, and Kobe who dominated the guard position. If you take out the centers (and yes I consider Duncan as a PF/C so I'm considering him a center) the top 5 would be MJ, Magic, Kobe, LeBron, Bird in that order.

NFLNBA
12-01-2015, 07:23 PM
Everyone can have their own opinion on things but when you consider the man was best player for nearly a decade 2000-2009 and did things many could not do. He averaged 36, 5, 5 and still didnt win MVP because he was so hated (arrogant young guy who cheated on his wife). We will never see anther perimeter player hit 81 pts, MJ tried and could never. 8 straight 40 pt games. If you were not blind you watched a man that got tripple teamed and still went off for 40. Most dominate unstoppable perimeter player since MJ. We all consider MJ the best and he did things MJ couldnt and didnt. 2nd most all-stars, tied for most all-nba teams, 9x defensive 1st team, single handidly saved USA for gold. Kobe is a hated man on most hated NBA team in basketball....i get that but dont let your pride blind you from the impact this man had on the game.

tredigs
12-01-2015, 07:51 PM
Everyone can have their own opinion on things but when you consider the man was best player for nearly a decade 2000-2009 and did things many could not do. He averaged 36, 5, 5 and still didnt win MVP because he was so hated (arrogant young guy who cheated on his wife). We will never see anther perimeter player hit 81 pts, MJ tried and could never. 8 straight 40 pt games. If you were not blind you watched a man that got tripple teamed and still went off for 40. Most dominate unstoppable perimeter player since MJ. We all consider MJ the best and he did things MJ couldnt and didnt. 2nd most all-stars, tied for most all-nba teams, 9x defensive 1st team, single handidly saved USA for gold. Kobe is a hated man on most hated NBA team in basketball....i get that but dont let your pride blind you from the impact this man had on the game.

A lot of noise in this post. Kobe's not "hated". He's top 3 in All Star balloting virtually every season and plays for the most popular team in the world. Give me a break with the woe is me bs. He didn't win MVP when he averaged 35/5/5 because he was the leader of a non playoff team. MVP's come from top seeds. Always. And he didn't even lead the league in a single advanced stat that year. Which, is not surprising, as the only advanced stat Kobe has ever lead the league in is Usage%. That's a fact.

Best player in the NBA from 2000 to 2009? As in, every year he was the best? Between Shaq, Duncan, T-Mac, KG, Wade, Dirk and Lebron (depending on what years we're looking at). No. Just no. "We all consider MJ the best but Kobe could do things he couldn't". MJ certainly had him one upped in virtually every aspect of the game, including scoring. 81 points on a terrible Raptors team is all well and good - incredible in fact - but it doesn't change the fact that he couldn't approach Jordan's overall game.

More-Than-Most
12-01-2015, 08:44 PM
Nothing wrong with being ranked around 15th best... Actually it's amazing tbh.

But let's not overrate him by putting him in the top 10. That was the point of the article.

How is it overrating him saying he is top 10? I get the article but at the end of the day Longevity matters and what he did for as long as he did and the championships he won matter enough that 8-12 isnt overrating him at all. Top 5-7 would be overrating him... 15-20 IMO would be underrating him

More-Than-Most
12-01-2015, 08:46 PM
Everyone can have their own opinion on things but when you consider the man was best player for nearly a decade 2000-2009 and did things many could not do. He averaged 36, 5, 5 and still didnt win MVP because he was so hated (arrogant young guy who cheated on his wife). We will never see anther perimeter player hit 81 pts, MJ tried and could never. 8 straight 40 pt games. If you were not blind you watched a man that got tripple teamed and still went off for 40. Most dominate unstoppable perimeter player since MJ. We all consider MJ the best and he did things MJ couldnt and didnt. 2nd most all-stars, tied for most all-nba teams, 9x defensive 1st team, single handidly saved USA for gold. Kobe is a hated man on most hated NBA team in basketball....i get that but dont let your pride blind you from the impact this man had on the game.

There can only be an argument for him as the best in any of those years once and thats in 06 where I think James was still better... Over his career he was arguably the best for one season and top 3 for about 3 seasons... The rest were 5-10 before his decline.

More-Than-Most
12-01-2015, 08:49 PM
Nobody loved or Worked harder and respected the game more than Kobe... Love or hate the guy if Jordan/Lebron had his drive they would both have many more championships... Kobe Lived for the game where MJ and Lebron both loved the game but didnt live for it and as they are playing looked to do other stuff.. MJ movies/Baseball... Lebron Movies... Kobe lived for this game. Thats why I said people should show some more respect when it comes to him... I have him 8-12... Probably 8-10 but people are just being disrespectful in here and that isnt unusual when it comes to Kobe/Lebron... Jordan is the only one who has forever got a pass on any type of criticism

Jeffy25
12-01-2015, 08:55 PM
Nobody loved or Worked harder and respected the game more than Kobe... Love or hate the guy if Jordan/Lebron had his drive they would both have many more championships... Kobe Lived for the game where MJ and Lebron both loved the game but didnt live for it and as they are playing looked to do other stuff.. MJ movies/Baseball... Lebron Movies... Kobe lived for this game. Thats why I said people should show some more respect when it comes to him... I have him 8-12... Probably 8-10 but people are just being disrespectful in here and that isnt unusual when it comes to Kobe/Lebron... Jordan is the only one who has forever got a pass on any type of criticism

Saying he is borderline top 10, I don't think is disrespectful. And I don't see anyone criticizing his work ethic.

He just didn't produce like some other players that played this game. That's all.

Lakers + Giants
12-01-2015, 09:08 PM
I like how some people take being outside of the top 10 as a diss. Also like how others say he's #15 at best. Either way, both of those are impressive. There isn't any negativity in that. Being a top 50 player alone is a huge compliment.

Jamiecballer
12-01-2015, 09:26 PM
Nobody loved or Worked harder and respected the game more than Kobe... Love or hate the guy if Jordan/Lebron had his drive they would both have many more championships... Kobe Lived for the game where MJ and Lebron both loved the game but didnt live for it and as they are playing looked to do other stuff.. MJ movies/Baseball... Lebron Movies... Kobe lived for this game. Thats why I said people should show some more respect when it comes to him... I have him 8-12... Probably 8-10 but people are just being disrespectful in here and that isnt unusual when it comes to Kobe/Lebron... Jordan is the only one who has forever got a pass on any type of criticism
What is your reasoning for saying that Kobe lived for the game and Jordan/Lebron did not?

tredigs
12-01-2015, 09:36 PM
Also, MTM just made a post questioning Michael Jordan's work ethic and passion for basketball? Lmfao. Don't confuse leaving basketball (if he did in fact leave and was not actually suspended... which is possible) after his fathers murder with a lack of passion. He had that in droves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peibLmDfOeE

lamzoka
12-01-2015, 09:59 PM
Everyone can have their own opinion on things but when you consider the man was best player for nearly a decade 2000-2009 and did things many could not do. He averaged 36, 5, 5 and still didnt win MVP because he was so hated (arrogant young guy who cheated on his wife). We will never see anther perimeter player hit 81 pts, MJ tried and could never. 8 straight 40 pt games. If you were not blind you watched a man that got tripple teamed and still went off for 40. Most dominate unstoppable perimeter player since MJ. We all consider MJ the best and he did things MJ couldnt and didnt. 2nd most all-stars, tied for most all-nba teams, 9x defensive 1st team, single handidly saved USA for gold. Kobe is a hated man on most hated NBA team in basketball....i get that but dont let your pride blind you from the impact this man had on the game.

This why I said Kobe is overrated, he was never the best player in the league in any decade he played in. Jordan was dominating when he came in the league. Then Shaq and Duncan took over. Then LeBron. Now I guess it's KD and Curry.

Jamiecballer
12-01-2015, 10:02 PM
I don't think its occurred to him that Kobe's surly unlikeable personality probably forced him to "live for the game" whereas Jordan and Lebron have charisma and that makes them more desirable for other ventures outside basketball.

ackar
12-01-2015, 10:04 PM
Kobe is top ten all time. It is really that simple. You don't have to like it but it is true.

Bruno
12-01-2015, 10:11 PM
you can't make the argument he makes in an argument as short as this. this would take pages and hours to actually debate.

More-Than-Most
12-01-2015, 10:14 PM
Saying he is borderline top 10, I don't think is disrespectful. And I don't see anyone criticizing his work ethic.

He just didn't produce like some other players that played this game. That's all.

some are saying 15 and beyond and i just dont see that... I hate to argue for kobe ever lol

Jeffy25
12-01-2015, 10:14 PM
This why I said Kobe is overrated, he was never the best player in the league in any decade he played in. Jordan was dominating when he came in the league. Then Shaq and Duncan took over. Then LeBron. Now I guess it's KD and Curry.

Exactly

Kobe was ONE of the best players in the league from 00-09, but I wouldn't say he was the best.

4th in WS - Dirk, Duncan, Garnett
8th in PER - James, Wade, Paul, Duncan, Shaq, Garnett, Dirk
20th in TS (among qualifiers) - too many to name
1st in total points, but 2nd in total minutes (Dirk and he are just a few minutes a part)

I would say Duncan for sure was better, Garnett has a great argument, so does Dirk....and LeBron was clearly better the last half of the decade, after Shaq was clearly better the first half.

Nothing wrong with being the 2nd-4th best player for that decade of course.

lamzoka
12-01-2015, 10:14 PM
Kobe is top ten all time. It is really that simple. You don't have to like it but it is true.

Kobe is not top 10 all time. It's really that simple. You don't have to like it, but it's true.

More-Than-Most
12-01-2015, 10:15 PM
Also, MTM just made a post questioning Michael Jordan's work ethic and passion for basketball? Lmfao. Don't confuse leaving basketball (if he did in fact leave and was not actually suspended... which is possible) after his fathers murder with a lack of passion. He had that in droves.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peibLmDfOeE

yes I do question it.. There is countless times where he has confirmed to be a heavy alcoholic/smoker and so on down the list and a party guy who had a passion for movies/baseball and so on... whatever the excuse may be his sole passion wasnt basketball and thats not a crime in any way... Kobe work ethic and drive for basketball is 2nd to none.

http://firstwefeast.com/drink/michael-jordan-six-pack-myth/

There are countless other articles and people who have worked with him that have stated the same thing.

Bruno
12-01-2015, 10:23 PM
I stopped reading after he built the crux of his argument around win shares.

Raw efficiency numbers are a useful tool, however secondary to understanding the gravitational pull that given players have on defenses regardless of their personal efficiency.

If efficiency was the end all be all to all great basketball minds, Pop never would have let Aldridge through the door. Efficiency balances out our perspective of PPG but there is a certain dark matter to be accounted for that doesn't show up in TS% and other excellent efficiency formulas. Well rounded understanding of ball accounts for all these things, as abstract as they may be at times. Advanced stats that aren't contextual (or applied appropriately in debate) limit us, in time they will be viewed as archaically as hard averages are today.

Goldsberry and other great thinkers have been pushing the boundaries of statistical interpretation for a few years now, these ideas will expand grow and replace our current 'advanced stats' as the art of basketball statistical analysis further develops.

http://grantland.com/features/how-kobe-bryant-missed-shots-translate-new-nba-statistic-kobe-assist/

AIRMAR72
12-01-2015, 10:23 PM
Kobe is not top 10 all time. It's really that simple. You don't have to like it, but it's true.
They cant handle the truth

tredigs
12-01-2015, 10:27 PM
Re-establishing that you're questioning MJ's work ethic. Lol. The person who every single player/coach who has come in contact with him says that he was so fixated on improving his game, winning and dominating every aspect he could on the court that it was like nothing they had ever seen. I could literally link you 500 pages worth of quotes, anecdotes and video on this.

Lol. You can have a life and also have an absolutely insane work ethic. There are 24 hours in a day.

How do you suppose MJ was able to continue to dominate the game well past his athletic prime? Blind luck and bad decisions?

Bruno
12-01-2015, 10:29 PM
Kobe is indisputable top 11, as of today. Somewhere in the 7-11 range.

tredigs
12-01-2015, 11:03 PM
I'm fine with him 7 to 11 but I think it's pretty disputable. I've read very smart people's take on it (much better takes than the link in the OP) who don't have him top 15. Those guys generally value peak/prime over longevity though.

More-Than-Most
12-01-2015, 11:59 PM
Re-establishing that you're questioning MJ's work ethic. Lol. The person who every single player/coach who has come in contact with him says that he was so fixated on improving his game, winning and dominating every aspect he could on the court that it was like nothing they had ever seen. I could literally link you 500 pages worth of quotes, anecdotes and video on this.

Lol. You can have a life and also have an absolutely insane work ethic. There are 24 hours in a day.

How do you suppose MJ was able to continue to dominate the game well past his athletic prime? Blind luck and bad decisions?

Never said he had a poor work ethic... Kobe--------->Jordans work ethic is what I stated... Dunno why you assume I am saying he has a poor work ethic.

tredigs
12-02-2015, 12:50 AM
It's fine to say that Kobe had an even more dedicated work ethic than MJ, what's ridiculous is to come out and deny that Jordan also had legendary work ethic (Kobe's work is based directly off of MJ's, he has come out and said as much). "Jordan would have many more rings if he put it in the work" is a hilariously dumb comment. He transcended the game, continually improved, broke molds and was the best player in the league virtually every season he played. I'd say it's fair to say he maxed out his personal potential. Your only argument would be the years he left for baseball, but that obviously was not due to a hole in his work ethic.

LA_Raiders
12-02-2015, 12:56 AM
Lol, he is top 3

nastynice
12-02-2015, 01:25 AM
I've been saying that for yrs kobe NEVER dominated the NBA GAME never those some of the few reason why he only have 1seasonal MVP that was handed to Kobe out of pity the MVP award for 2008 should've went to Chris Paul or Bron. kobe is top 15 when it comes to SG.. Kobe is a star but not superstar

lol, wtf!! The man had plenty of undisputable DOMINANT years! Maybe we have diff definitions of dominant, but he could absolutely take games over almost at will during his prime.

Having said that, is the guy top 10, top 15, top 20? **** if I know, what I do know is he is nba greatness, a historically elite player. In that category of elites he isn't tier 1, but he's up there.

*personally I could never make an all time great list because 80's and earlier I never got to see live, but since early 90's when I started really watching and understanding, the guy is definitely a top 10.

nastynice
12-02-2015, 01:32 AM
I like how some people take being outside of the top 10 as a diss. Also like how others say he's #15 at best. Either way, both of those are impressive. There isn't any negativity in that. Being a top 50 player alone is a huge compliment.

Thank you. Either way, if you are UNDISPUTABLY in the top 25 (and I think that's a pretty conservative number, but I think we can all agree, even the biggest kobe HATER can't have him under 25) at time of retirement, you are nba greatness and legend status, and any fan of the game will be sad to see a legend leave the game. Circle of life.

G_S_W
12-02-2015, 03:59 AM
I had him between 9 and 12. This was before this (hopefully) final season of his.

Has there ever been an nba superstar, in their final season, who impacted their team as negatively as Kobe Bryant has this year?

More-Than-Most
12-02-2015, 04:22 AM
It's fine to say that Kobe had an even more dedicated work ethic than MJ, what's ridiculous is to come out and deny that Jordan also had legendary work ethic (Kobe's work is based directly off of MJ's, he has come out and said as much). "Jordan would have many more rings if he put it in the work" is a hilariously dumb comment. He transcended the game, continually improved, broke molds and was the best player in the league virtually every season he played. I'd say it's fair to say he maxed out his personal potential. Your only argument would be the years he left for baseball, but that obviously was not due to a hole in his work ethic.

He left basketball... He didnt have the drive to continue... You are helping make my argument for me... Whatever reasons he had he left period... Kobe had a ton of real life issues and never left the game... His drive was the game... How exactly is me saying he could have more rings if he put in the work considering again HE LEFT THE SPORT FOR WHATEVER REASON THAT MAY BE... Again making my point for me... He was a known heavy smoker/drinker who loved to party and left the sport... Yea your damn right I question his work ethic when it comes to a guy like Kobe and the facts are right there to back it up.. Do not sit here and say something is a dumb comment then basically say the only argument I have is the years he left the sport... Holy **** listen to that... You are just arguing to argue.

Did not play to play baseball when he would have won probably his 7th ring there and then did not play after his 3 other rings and could have had even more rings had he stayed.... At the end of the day when he left the sport HE NO LONGER WANTED TO PLAY THE SPORT.

Sadds The Gr8
12-02-2015, 04:23 AM
I have him 8-10 range. These are always weird tho, cuz what are we basing it on? Longevity or Peak?

dnl123
12-02-2015, 06:08 AM
Lol, he is top 3

Yeah I agree. Top 3 Shooting Guard all time. Top 3 player? You're out of your mind if you actually think that.

PhillyFaninLA
12-02-2015, 07:32 AM
Lol, he is top 3

He's at best 5th best Laker of all time so he can't be top 3 or even top 10. Shaq, Magic, Wilt, Kareem are better and more well rounded player then Kobe.

Kobe was a warrior and a top 3 offensive player of all time (which is debatable), but you can't be 5th best in franchise history and be top 10 all time let alone top 3.


I also think its worth noting....all time rankings are opinions not facts....too many people on this site are acting as if there opinion is fact.

Here are 2 things I can say with absolute certainty:

- The legacy and history of a player is only decided years after the retire and people think back, we won't really know what we think as individuals for 5 years or so and we can think back, most of our opinions will change over that time when we don't see him play for a good period of time
- Due to Kobe's personality, narcissism (which I believe lead to both his warrior like offensive game and all the negative things people say about him), what people think happened in Colorado he needs to be away from the game as much as if not more than anyone in history for polarizing opinions to calm and proper perception set in, this is whether you are an irrational Kobephile, a Kobe Hater, or someone that is just former there opinion without being in either of those camps.

Jamiecballer
12-02-2015, 09:20 AM
I have him 8-10 range. These are always weird tho, cuz what are we basing it on? Longevity or Peak?
I think it should be extended peak, and that's the reason he falls short of the top 10 for me. Longevity is impressive but has more variables that are outside of the players direct control and sort of skews the numbers.

ballallday
12-02-2015, 10:42 AM
Yeah I agree. Top 3 Shooting Guard all time. Top 3 player? You're out of your mind if you actually think that.

Interms of scoring talent kobe could be ranked #1

Some people like myself like watching guys flat out score which is why some people love him and some hate him because thats all he wants to do. He has no other formula to win. So haters go look at your advanced stats and if you want to hate him for that great... but kobe is off the charts with talent you have to be dumb to not admit that.

I kno shaq is a beast and all but if that guy was 6 foot 6 he wouldn't be in the nba, let alone playing basketball not sure why he sits so high on everyones list. He is far from being talented rather a freak of nature. The most basic part of the game is shooting free throws and he can't. Which is why lebron is so great, dude is a beast but can ball.

I hear wilt missed 20 ft in a game too, again not sure why these big men get so much credit... Numbers? Advanced stats? Im sure no one really watched wilt play and I'm sure most of you didn't watch his games on youtube. looking at a stat line and saying x player is good always seemed crazy to me.

Duncan on the other hand for a big man has crazy talent and deserves high praise.

my two cents

Wade n Fade
12-02-2015, 10:58 AM
Fun fact, Kobe lost to one of the worst basketball teams of all time yesterday.

YAALREADYKNO
12-02-2015, 11:04 AM
Fun fact, Kobe lost to one of the worst basketball teams of all time yesterday.

He's old and the lakers suck lol cant blame Kobe for that smh

FraziersKnicks
12-02-2015, 11:21 AM
He's old and the lakers suck lol cant blame Kobe for that smh

You kinda can considering he shot 7/26 and had the most turnovers on the team.

Wade n Fade
12-02-2015, 11:41 AM
You kinda can considering he shot 7/26 and had the most turnovers on the team.

I will forever hold that against him regardless of age. He did that quite often. Hell, Robert Covington outdid him. Robert freaking Covington. You need to take a step back and pass more to run a more fluid offense, but it's the KoME show because it's all about him.

Sadds The Gr8
12-02-2015, 12:00 PM
I think it should be extended peak, and that's the reason he falls short of the top 10 for me. Longevity is impressive but has more variables that are outside of the players direct control and sort of skews the numbers.
Where do u have Duncan then?

Tony_Starks
12-02-2015, 12:03 PM
How legendary do you have to be for a team to allow you to play a entire season like someones drunk Uncle at the park?....

I'm in awe, bewilderment, disgust, and appreciation all at the same damn time.

joedaheights
12-02-2015, 12:35 PM
http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/insider/story/_/id/14254853/is-kobe-bryant-top-10-all-player-nba

I agree with the article. Kobe is probably around 15th spot.

I can't take this article seriously.. win shares has Stockton and Malone in the top 5, but Bird and Magic hovering around 20? Riiiiight.

These numbers are good guidelines, but for example, look at Bill Russell, who doesn't show up in any of these numbers..

I think you need to look at championships first... championships as the LEADER of your team. I don't care that it's a team achievement. Sure, there are times when you can knock that... I don't think that even if you were to argue Kobe Bryant as the co-leader of the 02 Lakers, anyone thinks that that title carries the weight of a title won by Larry Bird.

When you're the leader, the defense is geared to stop YOU. You're the one getting doubled first. You're the one whose hands they're trying to take the ball out of. In the case of Russell, you're the one making the paint a no-man's-land and allowing scorers who aren't elite defenders to just do what they do.

Nothing you do matters unless it is part of the object of the game.. to win the championship. Stats by a great player with 0 rings can be used to tell the difference between that player and another player with 0 rings, but don't come and argue some BS about Karl Malone to me in an attempt to tell me he's better than Isiah Thomas. Now, when comparing Thomas to other players who led their teams to rings, yes.. his lack of great stats will make him suffer.

But that's just it... if you're not a moron and you watch Isiah, you can tell in two minutes that he could have dropped what he had to do to WIN in a hot second to start making his stat sheet look twice as good as it did.

But when you argue him with Tim Duncan or Larry Bird, those players ALSO did what they had to do to win, AND they brought the stats to the party.

I've heard all kinds of BS about all kinds of players over the years. Name a player who might be considered top 25 by anyone and I've likely heard it...

List of myths:

> Oscar Robertson is better than X, he averaged a triple double

He also had Jerry Lucas, a hall of famer, and never led his team to a ring. He was second fiddle to Abdul-Jabbar when Milwaukee won. Excuses for why you don't do something (Russell) are not as compelling as actually doing something.

> Bill Russell is better than MJ, he has 11 rings. And if you count stats, Wilt had better stats, so there...

Bill Russell also averaged 14 PPG for his career on 44% FG. He won because they matched his defense with top scorers. If you put Bill Russell with Scottie Pippen and ten guys, do they still win? Besides, be honest with yourself, by the 80s and 90s, does any player win 11 rings? In Russell and Wilt's day, there were centers who would be dwarfed by Horace Grant, and the second biggest player on the team was often the size of a small forward from the 90s, if that.

Regarding Wilt, he had the stats, but only won two rings and failed miserably when his team was heavily favored in 69 and 70.

So MJ had it all.. the stats and the rings in one player.

> Michael was a great one on one player, but Magic made his teammates better..

Michael's response in 1987 to a reporter, "I'd love a chance to make Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and James Worthy better."

What if you put Magic without a top 5 player ever as his primary scorer. Remember, if the Lakers couldn't outrun teams, they could just drop it in to Kareem and watch him go to work. Magic is great.. top 5...

But I think Lebron is showing you what would happen to Magic. Teams have frustrated Lebron when they haven't left his teammates open and said "YOU beat us." When times have called for him to be selfish and take it straight to the cup and dominate, only this past season has he really begun to show that killer instinct.

Michael could average 41 PPG in a playoff series, shoot 52% and beat you. He could also average 33 PPG on 55% FG AND 11.4 APG in a series and beat you.

> Well, Karl Malone would have won, if it wasn't for running in to some guy named Jordan.

BS. Bill Simmons commentary about how the Jazz weren't sexy, they were just the last girl left after all the hot girls got married (Sonics, Suns, Rockets) was spot on. Yeah, they lost to Jordan twice. They also:

Lost 0-3 to the Warriors in the first round in 1989
Lost in the first round to a Suns team in 1990 whose top 5 players in starts were... and you really can't make this stuff up... Tom Chambers, Kevin Johnson, Mark West, Jeff Hornacek and Kurt Rambis

So... I've heard all the BS. I believe in using rings, stats, and having watching the games break ties, and then creating a tiered system where you can argue within tiers, but not from one tier to the other... my list:

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2a. Magic Johnson
2b. Bill Russell

5. Larry Bird

6. Tim Duncan
6a. Shaquille O'neal

8. Wilt Chamberlain
8a. Lebron James (if he retired today)

10. Kobe Bryant
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Isiah Thomas
13. Moses Malone
14. Oscar Robertson

Yes, I know, I know.. Robertson never led a team to a ring, but Nowitzki did, Curry did, Rick Barry did. To me the difference is just that large. Besides, it's just too explosive to me to rate Curry yet. I have to see what he does in the next 2-4 years.

You can knock Kobe for a lot... and believe me, I like to, because I hate him.. and not in a "he always beat my team way." I think he's a douche. But I'm not about to detach myself from reality and not rank the man higher than 15. I'll put my list up against anyone ever.

Kobe got two rings where HE was the man... including one where there were more future hall of famers on his Finals opponent than there were on his team. Case closed.

By the way, as early entry becomes the complete norm and as college coaches and high school coaches get lazier and lazier, I'm promising you that there will never be another SG who is as close to everything that Jordan was as Jordan Lite (Kobe Bryant). Kind of that Jordan zero, diet Jordan or Tab/Pepsi Free (Jordan lol).

Jamiecballer
12-02-2015, 01:59 PM
Where do u have Duncan then?

that's a very tough call for me. his peak was shorter than some and it's pretty tough to gauge whether the quick decline in minutes should be held against him because he needed it or if you are then punishing him for having a very pro-active coach. and while he also has played in pretty an ideal environment for his entire career, i think his unselfishness and personality are also pretty hefty contributors to that environment in the first place. Duncan is a crazy tough call for me, so much so that I can't even say exactly where. top 10, but i would need to look a lot closer at the other 9 to be sure where.

Hawkeye15
12-02-2015, 02:07 PM
Uh, actually his advanced stats went up when Shaq left.

The articles main point is to say that Kobe doesn't have as many win shares as guys like Malone, Stockton, Reggie Miller, Dirk, KG, Barkley, Robinson, Julius Irving etc so that should knock him down. The article then says that you should not take into account team success.Talk about having your cake and eating it to. (Whatever that means)

Do you people know how a win share is calculated? Do you understand that there are two main factors into how you accumulate these win shares? Your teammates, and your teams scheme effect your win shares. John Stockton and Karl Malone ran the pick and roll nearly every time down the floor. They accumulated the most counting numbers and thus were awarded the most win shares for that team. Are they better players than Shaq? No they were not. They were really the only two talented guys on the team so they didn't win anything but got to put up good numbers. Shaq was always surrounded by good players so he could defer to them at times. That drops his win shares but raises team success. Same with Kobe. His win shares went to where a top 3 guy in win shares like Malone was for the 4 years after Shaq left at about 14 per year. Kobes team success goes down but his individual advanced stats flourish.


Reggie Miller is not as good as Kobe. But he has more win shares. Why? Because Reggie was the main focal point on everyone of his teams for 17 years. Kobe took a back seat to Shaq for his first 7 years of his career. Then had Pau, Bynum, Odom. So Kobe doesn't get credit of the win shares he could have accumulated and cant lean on the team success that flourished due to his sharing of the responsibilities. Got ya:rolleyes:

Par for the course type of biased atticle. But there are only 4 players with more win shares than Kobe that have had equal or greater team success to go with it. That would be Jordan, Kareem, Duncan, and Shaq. Lebron would be there as well if he faired better in the finals. And Magic suffers the same thing as Kobe. Played on great teams so his teammates produced to steal away win shares. Magic is at#22

then why did Love collect oodles of win shares on a terrible team? That is not how they are calculated.

Statistically, Kobe will never be on par with the elite of the elite. But we also can't ignore is absolute beast longevity, which is why he does slide to around my top 10.

I get not using titles. But when you are comparing him alongside guys like KG, who stunk in some playoffs, and continually regressed, are we really saying KG had a better career? I can't rate KG ahead of him.

Somewhere 8-11 is the tier I have him in.

Hawkeye15
12-02-2015, 02:08 PM
I can't take this article seriously.. win shares has Stockton and Malone in the top 5, but Bird and Magic hovering around 20? Riiiiight.

These numbers are good guidelines, but for example, look at Bill Russell, who doesn't show up in any of these numbers..

I think you need to look at championships first... championships as the LEADER of your team. I don't care that it's a team achievement. Sure, there are times when you can knock that... I don't think that even if you were to argue Kobe Bryant as the co-leader of the 02 Lakers, anyone thinks that that title carries the weight of a title won by Larry Bird.

When you're the leader, the defense is geared to stop YOU. You're the one getting doubled first. You're the one whose hands they're trying to take the ball out of. In the case of Russell, you're the one making the paint a no-man's-land and allowing scorers who aren't elite defenders to just do what they do.

Nothing you do matters unless it is part of the object of the game.. to win the championship. Stats by a great player with 0 rings can be used to tell the difference between that player and another player with 0 rings, but don't come and argue some BS about Karl Malone to me in an attempt to tell me he's better than Isiah Thomas. Now, when comparing Thomas to other players who led their teams to rings, yes.. his lack of great stats will make him suffer.

But that's just it... if you're not a moron and you watch Isiah, you can tell in two minutes that he could have dropped what he had to do to WIN in a hot second to start making his stat sheet look twice as good as it did.

But when you argue him with Tim Duncan or Larry Bird, those players ALSO did what they had to do to win, AND they brought the stats to the party.

I've heard all kinds of BS about all kinds of players over the years. Name a player who might be considered top 25 by anyone and I've likely heard it...

List of myths:

> Oscar Robertson is better than X, he averaged a triple double

He also had Jerry Lucas, a hall of famer, and never led his team to a ring. He was second fiddle to Abdul-Jabbar when Milwaukee won. Excuses for why you don't do something (Russell) are not as compelling as actually doing something.

> Bill Russell is better than MJ, he has 11 rings. And if you count stats, Wilt had better stats, so there...

Bill Russell also averaged 14 PPG for his career on 44% FG. He won because they matched his defense with top scorers. If you put Bill Russell with Scottie Pippen and ten guys, do they still win? Besides, be honest with yourself, by the 80s and 90s, does any player win 11 rings? In Russell and Wilt's day, there were centers who would be dwarfed by Horace Grant, and the second biggest player on the team was often the size of a small forward from the 90s, if that.

Regarding Wilt, he had the stats, but only won two rings and failed miserably when his team was heavily favored in 69 and 70.

So MJ had it all.. the stats and the rings in one player.

> Michael was a great one on one player, but Magic made his teammates better..

Michael's response in 1987 to a reporter, "I'd love a chance to make Kareem Abdul-Jabbar and James Worthy better."

What if you put Magic without a top 5 player ever as his primary scorer. Remember, if the Lakers couldn't outrun teams, they could just drop it in to Kareem and watch him go to work. Magic is great.. top 5...

But I think Lebron is showing you what would happen to Magic. Teams have frustrated Lebron when they haven't left his teammates open and said "YOU beat us." When times have called for him to be selfish and take it straight to the cup and dominate, only this past season has he really begun to show that killer instinct.

Michael could average 41 PPG in a playoff series, shoot 52% and beat you. He could also average 33 PPG on 55% FG AND 11.4 APG in a series and beat you.

> Well, Karl Malone would have won, if it wasn't for running in to some guy named Jordan.

BS. Bill Simmons commentary about how the Jazz weren't sexy, they were just the last girl left after all the hot girls got married (Sonics, Suns, Rockets) was spot on. Yeah, they lost to Jordan twice. They also:

Lost 0-3 to the Warriors in the first round in 1989
Lost in the first round to a Suns team in 1990 whose top 5 players in starts were... and you really can't make this stuff up... Tom Chambers, Kevin Johnson, Mark West, Jeff Hornacek and Kurt Rambis

So... I've heard all the BS. I believe in using rings, stats, and having watching the games break ties, and then creating a tiered system where you can argue within tiers, but not from one tier to the other... my list:

1. Michael Jordan

2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
2a. Magic Johnson
2b. Bill Russell

5. Larry Bird

6. Tim Duncan
6a. Shaquille O'neal

8. Wilt Chamberlain
8a. Lebron James (if he retired today)

10. Kobe Bryant
11. Hakeem Olajuwon
12. Isiah Thomas
13. Moses Malone
14. Oscar Robertson

Yes, I know, I know.. Robertson never led a team to a ring, but Nowitzki did, Curry did, Rick Barry did. To me the difference is just that large. Besides, it's just too explosive to me to rate Curry yet. I have to see what he does in the next 2-4 years.

You can knock Kobe for a lot... and believe me, I like to, because I hate him.. and not in a "he always beat my team way." I think he's a douche. But I'm not about to detach myself from reality and not rank the man higher than 15. I'll put my list up against anyone ever.

Kobe got two rings where HE was the man... including one where there were more future hall of famers on his Finals opponent than there were on his team. Case closed.

By the way, as early entry becomes the complete norm and as college coaches and high school coaches get lazier and lazier, I'm promising you that there will never be another SG who is as close to everything that Jordan was as Jordan Lite (Kobe Bryant). Kind of that Jordan zero, diet Jordan or Tab/Pepsi Free (Jordan lol).

that is because of the years played. Magic with HIV, and Bird with his back, retired way earlier.

Hawkeye15
12-02-2015, 02:08 PM
How legendary do you have to be for a team to allow you to play a entire season like someones drunk Uncle at the park?....

I'm in awe, bewilderment, disgust, and appreciation all at the same damn time.

haha, great comment

joedaheights
12-02-2015, 02:28 PM
Never said he had a poor work ethic... Kobe--------->Jordans work ethic is what I stated... Dunno why you assume I am saying he has a poor work ethic.

Again, like most Kobe fans.. Who think that MJ's career spanned from 96-03, you likely have no idea what you're talking about. Early in Scottie Pippen's career, the very raw Pippen improved his game because he and Jordan would go to war all summer long. The 91 Bulls all talk about how they gave up beer and going out in 91. They attribute struggles in the 92 playoffs to not giving those things up.

Jordan's work ethic was fine for him to be as great as he was. Bill Russell didn't practice at times because he'd tell Auerbach he was tired and he was better than Kobe too.

You know what Jordan had that Kobe never had.. The biggest difference between not only Jordan and Kobe but Jordan and every leaping swing man who ever lived? Vince Carter, Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, Clyde Drexler, Lebron James, Julius Erving, Elgin Baylor, Scottie Pippen, All of them?

A lightning quick first step. His first step and quickness were more like a top pg than a swingman. Ever see how these guys can jump and dunk like MJ when they have a clear lane to the basket but don't look nearly as good with defenders set in the half court?

MJ created his own full court break in the half court because he'd give his defender the 1-2, put the guy clearly behind him and have ten feet to load up unfettered on his way to posterizing Alonzo mourning, Patrick Ewing etc. the smart ones like shaq and Hakeem saw him coming and got out of the way.., and I can show you those..

THAT is the difference

jerellh528
12-02-2015, 02:36 PM
Funny to see all the usual suspects trying to kick a dog when he's down haha. Kobe must've really devastated your favorite teams over the past few decades.

still1ballin
12-02-2015, 02:49 PM
Dude every time I see your Sig I ****ing crack up..

:laugh2:

I'm glad bro

Jamiecballer
12-02-2015, 04:41 PM
Funny to see all the usual suspects trying to kick a dog when he's down haha. Kobe must've really devastated your favorite teams over the past few decades.
This dog had fleas the whole time :)

chipurmunki
12-02-2015, 09:24 PM
he's top 20, maaaaaaybe top 15, but no way in hell is he sniffing top 10.

More-Than-Most
12-02-2015, 09:46 PM
Again, like most Kobe fans.. Who think that MJ's career spanned from 96-03, you likely have no idea what you're talking about. Early in Scottie Pippen's career, the very raw Pippen improved his game because he and Jordan would go to war all summer long. The 91 Bulls all talk about how they gave up beer and going out in 91. They attribute struggles in the 92 playoffs to not giving those things up.

Jordan's work ethic was fine for him to be as great as he was. Bill Russell didn't practice at times because he'd tell Auerbach he was tired and he was better than Kobe too.

You know what Jordan had that Kobe never had.. The biggest difference between not only Jordan and Kobe but Jordan and every leaping swing man who ever lived? Vince Carter, Grant Hill, Tracy McGrady, Clyde Drexler, Lebron James, Julius Erving, Elgin Baylor, Scottie Pippen, All of them?

A lightning quick first step. His first step and quickness were more like a top pg than a swingman. Ever see how these guys can jump and dunk like MJ when they have a clear lane to the basket but don't look nearly as good with defenders set in the half court?

MJ created his own full court break in the half court because he'd give his defender the 1-2, put the guy clearly behind him and have ten feet to load up unfettered on his way to posterizing Alonzo mourning, Patrick Ewing etc. the smart ones like shaq and Hakeem saw him coming and got out of the way.., and I can show you those..

THAT is the difference

what is the point in this? so because the dude was great he didnt have to work hard? i never once said he didnt work hard... i said kobe has the most drive and best work ethic in the history of the game to me... even in his 20th season after being injured he was yet again busting his *** to get back... that is him his entire career... he isnt nearly as good as jordan or lebron but nobody has worked harder.

YAALREADYKNO
12-02-2015, 10:56 PM
Yall hold that against Kobe tonight too

Bostonjorge
12-03-2015, 01:21 AM
Funny how the reasoning to rank Kobe out of the top 10 is value the stats never brought up like advance stats ect... And down play what Kobe has over 95% of every player ever. Like a 2 time back to back champ and three peat. Most all NBA and Def first teams ect.

You never hear the old players say look at my win shares. I don't even think Jordan even knew these stats even existed. I know for sure he knows about the ones Kobe has. Scoring list, titles and so on. No way Jordan would compare him self to a player out of the top 5 let alone the top 10.

Hawkeye15
12-03-2015, 01:48 AM
Funny how the reasoning to rank Kobe out of the top 10 is value the stats never brought up like advance stats ect... And down play what Kobe has over 95% of every player ever. Like a 2 time back to back champ and three peat. Most all NBA and Def first teams ect.

You never hear the old players say look at my win shares. I don't even think Jordan even knew these stats even existed. I know for sure he knows about the ones Kobe has. Scoring list, titles and so on. No way Jordan would compare him self to a player out of the top 5 let alone the top 10.

you do realize, Kobe was given chip help for well over a decade, right? While I agree with much of your post, (meaning, the older players didn't know what the hell advanced stats are), fact is, Kobe is not statistically on par with the elite of the elite, and that is even despite the fact that the back end of his career did give information of efficiency.

Hell, my coach benched me in 1991 for taking a shot 1 foot inside the 3 point line. It's not like efficiency is a revelation haha

joedaheights
12-03-2015, 02:26 AM
what is the point in this? so because the dude was great he didnt have to work hard? i never once said he didnt work hard... i said kobe has the most drive and best work ethic in the history of the game to me... even in his 20th season after being injured he was yet again busting his *** to get back... that is him his entire career... he isnt nearly as good as jordan or lebron but nobody has worked harder.

Yes, that's exactly my point. A reporter once interviewed Bo Jackson at his house... Bo had this weight set and the reporter was excited because he was going to see this routine that had made Bo who he was. At the height of his excitement, the reporter was shocked at what Bo said next. "I never use it man." A fitness company gave it to me because they assumed I was a workout warrior, but I'm not.

Jordan worked hard early in his career, but I'm not sure that being as good as him is purely a product of hard work. I have never looked at Shaq and thought, "god, I bet he has to work hard."

Jordan, Russell... they worked hard enough, but they were just very naturally talented.

The best way I can illustrate it to you is this.. Bobby Fischer, America's second world chess champion.. a man who was considered the second most recognizable figure in the world after JESUS at the height of his reign.. was asked about players and their "will to win." He replied, I've played a lot of players with a tremendous will to win.. who just weren't good."

I'm not saying Bryant wasn't good, but what I am saying is that how hard you work is immaterial to the discussion.

Are you great or aren't you? If you are, I don't care if the reason is genetics (Shaq), a combination of genetics and a lot of hard work (Jordan), or the "hardest worker ever."

If you're great I don't care if you are a hard worker, a terrible worker, a degenerate off the court like Scottie Pippen.. whatever.

That's all moral BS. It's the kind of BS that John Paxson Bulls fans buy into...

Are you great or aren't you, period...

Scoots
12-03-2015, 12:56 PM
Does a players attitude to teammates, to the press, and to the public matter in their ranking?

If so some players are helped and some players are hurt simply by their personality.

Jordan loses a bit since he was a major prick to his teammates but great with fans and the press. (also Kobe)
Magic goes up a bit since really little substantially negative seems to come out or stick to him (even philandering and getting sick)
Russel was supposedly a great teammate, but really harsh with fans and the press.

Hawkeye15
12-03-2015, 01:05 PM
Does a players attitude to teammates, to the press, and to the public matter in their ranking?

If so some players are helped and some players are hurt simply by their personality.

Jordan loses a bit since he was a major prick to his teammates but great with fans and the press. (also Kobe)
Magic goes up a bit since really little substantially negative seems to come out or stick to him (even philandering and getting sick)
Russel was supposedly a great teammate, but really harsh with fans and the press.

none of that should matter. As I have stated many times, I personally hate Kobe, but I can't let it impact what I think of his game overall. You can not like a guy and recognize how good/bad he is.

I hate Tome Brady and want all his fans to get herpes, but I still believe he is one of the top 3 QB's to ever play.

Scoots
12-03-2015, 01:59 PM
none of that should matter. As I have stated many times, I personally hate Kobe, but I can't let it impact what I think of his game overall. You can not like a guy and recognize how good/bad he is.

I hate Tome Brady and want all his fans to get herpes, but I still believe he is one of the top 3 QB's to ever play.

I think some of it has to matter ... if a guy is a bad teammate or a limited teammate then he is hurting his team. I bet Magic would have been able to maximize Dwight Howard as a teammate while all Kobe could do was complain. Some guys just don't understand that not everyone has that insane inner drive and you need to find another way.

Take a look at Houston this year ... it's clear that chemistry last year was far superior to the chemistry this year and also that neither Howard nor Harden are good chemists. That's part of the game it's just not very quantifiable.

How they deal with the press and the public means less, but certainly the business of the NBA would prefer you not be a prick. :)

Hawkeye15
12-03-2015, 02:14 PM
I think some of it has to matter ... if a guy is a bad teammate or a limited teammate then he is hurting his team. I bet Magic would have been able to maximize Dwight Howard as a teammate while all Kobe could do was complain. Some guys just don't understand that not everyone has that insane inner drive and you need to find another way.

Take a look at Houston this year ... it's clear that chemistry last year was far superior to the chemistry this year and also that neither Howard nor Harden are good chemists. That's part of the game it's just not very quantifiable.

How they deal with the press and the public means less, but certainly the business of the NBA would prefer you not be a prick. :)

I totally get where you are coming from. I guess I meant a lot of great athletes (or successful people in general) are type A personalities, so they will always have run in's with others.

Bostonjorge
12-03-2015, 06:31 PM
you do realize, Kobe was given chip help for well over a decade, right? While I agree with much of your post, (meaning, the older players didn't know what the hell advanced stats are), fact is, Kobe is not statistically on par with the elite of the elite, and that is even despite the fact that the back end of his career did give information of efficiency.

Hell, my coach benched me in 1991 for taking a shot 1 foot inside the 3 point line. It's not like efficiency is a revelation haha
I agree efficiency is important but it's not the in all end all to ranking players. Especially when Kobe was the only player in the top 10 who shot from the outside other then bird. Kobe's efficiency is also not terrible and is way above average. My main point is you can't down play his tiltes and spots on all time list's because some feel on here that they play a smaller role then stats no one cares about other then this site.

I mean come on this site along was made for basketball and quickly became pro sports kobe daily.

Hawkeye15
12-03-2015, 06:37 PM
I agree efficiency is important but it's not the in all end all to ranking players. Especially when Kobe was the only player in the top 10 who shot from the outside other then bird. Kobe's efficiency is also not terrible and is way above average. My main point is you can't down play his tiltes and spots on all time list's because some feel on here that they play a smaller role then stats no one cares about other then this site.

I mean come on this site along was made for basketball and quickly became pro sports kobe daily.

a whole lot of things go into ranking a player. Pelton is a stats guy. So that is how he judges. I think a lot of factors play in. I have him higher than Pelton.

Scoots
12-04-2015, 11:36 AM
Luke Walton when asked for Kobe stories said he remembered Jackson in film review pointing out Brian Cook standing wide open at the 3 point line in the corner and Jackson told Kobe he should pass the ball to Cook for the 3. Kobe's response was that if Cook was a good teammate he'd know Kobe was going to shoot the ball and should be inside getting ready for the rebound.

Gotta love a guy who not only says he's going to shoot the ball regardless of what the coach says the right play is, but that he's likely to miss so Cook should be there for the rebound ... like 2nd chance points is the best way for his teammates to score :)