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Redrum187
11-23-2015, 03:54 AM
I know this is a comparison thread, but I want to ask if this can stay on the main board for a few days.

I've never been a huge fan of either player (especially Carmelo). There are a lot of similarities between these players in that neither really play defense but both are fantastic if you need to get points. Which player has the superior peak (Harden just entered his)? At their peak, which player would you rather take and why? Which player has the superior career resume?

More-Than-Most
11-23-2015, 04:10 AM
Its Melo and its not close... I have always called harden a poor mans melo who gets a ton of ****ing calls for no reason at all... Melo is a much better shooter/scorer and as bad as melo is on defense he is and always has been better than harden on defense... I watched harden get a foul call the other night when there was nobody within a foot of him.

Gander13SM
11-23-2015, 05:01 AM
I'm not sure we've seen Harden at his peak yet but I'm confident we have seen Melo at his peak.

That makes this a difficult decision. Right now it's Harden without even thinking about it.

If you take prime Melo and put him up against Harden last year (his best season so far imo) I think I would lean towards Melo. At the end of the day he was better defensively, still not a good defender, but better than Harden ever has been. On top of that you have the ability of posting up as well as cutting and deep shooting. He's a more versatile scorer.

I hate comparisons like this because I've always felt you need to know the rest of the roster. I mean one thing Harden has over Melo is the ability to initiate an offense. You can run your offense through both in regards to them being at the end of plays but Harden can also initiate these plays, aside from LeBron I reckon Harden is the best passer in this league that doesn't play the 1. So although Melo is the more complete scorer, Harden might be the more complete offensive player.

I would need to check but I'm going to hazard a guess and say Harden is the more efficient scorer?

I'll go with Melo purely because I actually enjoyed watching him play when he was at his peak. I respect the hell out of Hardens game and when he's on he's great to watch but (and I know it's becoming cliché at this point) I can't stand watching him through himself into the lane trying to draw fouls. And this is coming from a guy who was a big fan of prime Wade.

But I'm open to an argument in favor of Harden changing my mind.

MonroeFAN
11-23-2015, 06:19 AM
Are you both New York fans? I'm convinced that Harden is better at basically everything.

Citing bad foul calls as the reason?

Gander13SM
11-23-2015, 07:14 AM
Are you both New York fans? I'm convinced that Harden is better at basically everything.

Citing bad foul calls as the reason?

That's not a very convincing argument. In fact it's not an argument. Just a statement. Opinion. As I said in my post I'm open to someone presenting an argument for Harden to change my mind. But you'll need to provide a little more than "I'm convinced he's better at everything"

Like I said, it's difficult. Because I still don't think we've seen Hardens peak.

thapastime7
11-23-2015, 10:03 AM
Melo no comparison yes they are both volume shooters but much different game. Melo is a player who can score from anywhere including back to the basket. Harden plays as a slasher. I would compare Melo's game to Durants game and as for Defense Melo isnt a bad defender its just about trying with him. When he faces players like LEbron, Durant and the other great forwards he plays them well. If you watch his Defense this year its much improved. He know he doesnt have to be a one man show in the offense side. He doesnt take 30 shots anymore which requires lots of energy from one side.

nycericanguy
11-23-2015, 10:08 AM
Melo's prime he was and still is a more versatile scorer who doesn't rely anywhere near as much on getting whistles like Harden. Harden gets more assists because he basically plays PG, but he also turns it over a ton more. Melo is better on D, tho neither is good, and of course Melo is better on the boards.

I'd give the edge to Melo, tho I'm biased because I hate the way Harden plays and I'm a knick fan. But I dont like watching Melo at times either TBH. But he can score from anywhere on the court without getting 12 free throws.

xxplayerxx23
11-23-2015, 10:25 AM
Melo doesn't play defense is such a bs statement. Hardens defense makes Melo look all first team. Melo so far this year has really played good defense, still doesn't have any lift coming back from that knee injury. For whatever reason harden gets a ton of calls. It's close but I'd take Melo for now.

SolemnJudgement
11-23-2015, 10:52 AM
Harden flops and gets egregious calls
Melo doesnt flop and gets killed in the paint

Melo by alot, harden is the most overrated player in the NBA

nycericanguy
11-23-2015, 10:58 AM
Melo plays defense well sparingly... but most of the time he gets lazy.

Beltrans Mole
11-23-2015, 11:00 AM
Melo doesn't get star calls either.

tredigs
11-23-2015, 01:22 PM
Show me a year Melo had better than Harden last season, and I'll show you why you don't know what you're talking about. Batter up -->

nycericanguy
11-23-2015, 01:24 PM
Show me a year Melo had better than Harden last season, and I'll show you why you don't know what you're talking about. Batter up -->

I'm sure you're going to bring up advanced stats, but the only reason Harden has better advanced stats than Melo or just about everyone... is because he gets so many more ft's than everyone else. I'm not convinced that means he's a better player or had a better peak.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
11-23-2015, 01:34 PM
this season its Melo by far

xxplayerxx23
11-23-2015, 01:42 PM
Melo plays defense well sparingly... but most of the time he gets lazy.


He does get lazy but I haven't really seen him get beat to bad this year. Last time I check he was holding the guy he was guarding to pretty low fg % not sure if that changed of late

Gander13SM
11-23-2015, 01:51 PM
Show me a year Melo had better than Harden last season, and I'll show you why you don't know what you're talking about. Batter up -->

Based on what? Efficiency? That's the only argument I can see. Melo is clearly better defensively and definitely the more versatile scorer. I'm interested to see what your argument is though.

tredigs
11-23-2015, 05:37 PM
I'm sure you're going to bring up advanced stats, but the only reason Harden has better advanced stats than Melo or just about everyone... is because he gets so many more ft's than everyone else. I'm not convinced that means he's a better player or had a better peak.


Based on what? Efficiency? That's the only argument I can see. Melo is clearly better defensively and definitely the more versatile scorer. I'm interested to see what your argument is though.

You guys can ***** and moan about FT's all you want, but the bottom line is that these are not phantom calls, he's just fantastic at drawing contact. "But in the playoffs when refs swallow the whistle...". Yeah, no. In the playoffs the last 3 years he averages 10 FTA's a game. It's the highest percentage shot in the game, and he gets it as much as anyone. You can whine about the methods, but it doesn't take away from its effectiveness. He's a better perimeter shooter than Melo as well. A career 37% from behind the arc and shot it at 38% in the playoffs last year on a high volume. Melo's a 35% 3pt shooter who falls to a paltry 32% in the playoffs. Better distributor/playmaker? Harden by a wide margin. He's good for 6 to 8 assists a night and is always a threat to create. Melo's a black hole as often as not and won't get you more than 3 assist a game. You can say he's getting hockey assists yada yada, but Harden does as well. Overall, it's a massive gap in this department. Neither are good defenders, and I don't think Melo had a year where he was any more impressive than Harden's improved effort last season.

Harden is playing like hot garbage right now, but his best is very clearly better and more impactful than Melo's best. You guys didn't want to see advanced stats so I did not bother, but rest assure his best absolutely crushes Melo's best in VORP, RPM, etc. He has a larger impact, and it is not a tight debate.

Gander13SM
11-23-2015, 06:16 PM
1. Where did I say I didn't want to see advanced stats? I think you could at least read all of my posts before replying with such an arrogant tone. I clearly said I hadn't checked the stats but figured Harden was more efficient and I clearly said I was open to somebody putting forward an argument for Harden to change my mind.

2. Stats aren't everything. I put a lot of stock into them but face it, Melos ability to shoot, cut, post up etc makes him a more versatile scorer. He can get it done in more ways and has a greater skillset in that regard.

3. I already said Harden was the better play maker. Seriously I don't think you read my first post in this thread at all.

4. A lot of Hardens calls are phantom calls. That's the issue. A lot of the time there is literally no contact made whatsoever. He's just flailing around. Is drawing contact a skill? Yes. Is getting 75% of your points at the free throw line something that makes you a better scorer? Absolutely not.

5. Melo has definitely had better defensive years than Harden.

6. Why are you talking about Melos career numbers versus Hardens best season so far. That seems stupidly biased.

I would put Melos best season in terms of effort defensively and still being an elite scorer as 2014. Speaking solely about him as an individual obviously. Team didn't do so well that year.

If we assume Harden peaked last year (which I wholeheartedly disagree with) the numbers are;

(Melo)
27 PPG,
.50 efg%,
.40 3pt%,

VS

(Harden)
27 PPG,
.51 efg%
.37 3pt%


Not that much of a gap.

And if you break it down further you'll see that last season James Hardens eFG% on jump shots was .474 while in 2014 Melos eFG% on jump shots was .490

You'll also find that 11.5 of Hardens points per 48 minutes came from the free throw line. While 7.4 points came from the line for Melo.

Again, I accept that Harden is the more efficient scorer. But I would argue that Melo, although not as efficient is still an efficient scorer especially at his peak. And he is by far a more versatile scorer, able to get buckets in a large variety of ways. I would argue that in terms of scoring, Melo is more skilled, he has more tools in his box whereas Harden is more efficient.

Essentially. I believe Harden to be more efficient. But I think margins matter. And the gap in efficiency (between their best season) isn't as great as the gap in their skill set. I'll take the slightly less efficient guy who is significantly more skilled at scoring in a variety of ways.

I would argue Melos best years defensively trump Hardens.

I would argue Melos effectiveness as an off the ball player trumps Harden.

And I would argue that Melos game is definitely more aesthetically pleasing. I'm not sure how relevant that is though haha.

Again, I think Harden is more efficient and the more complete offensive player. I think Melo is the more complete scorer and better defender. And AGAIN we are talking about their best years, of which, I think we've yet to see from Harden.

Please read all of my posts before replying in the future. That way I don't have to repeat myself. Thanks.

tredigs
11-23-2015, 06:26 PM
Realize that I quoted two posts Gander. I was responding to post 1 with the advanced stat comment. You did not make a good case for Melo in your post. You essentially just told me that their eFG% are similar and that they can score at a similar clip and you like the way Melo scores. Care. eFG% <<< PPP and that is where Harden crushes Melo. It also does not account for the huge gap in playmaking ability. Overall, that is where the cream separates. It's a paramount reason why his RPM, PER, VORP, BPM, etc etc etc all own Melo's best. When virtually everything is saying A > B, it's probably time to accept that A might be > B.

If you're going to try to position the debate on Melo's defensive ability being superior and that being the difference, more power to you. But it's not a position I can take seriously.

Gander13SM
11-23-2015, 06:45 PM
So you accept the gap in efficiency isn't that great and you accept that Melo can score in a more varied way? It's not about liking the way he scores it's about basketball. There is more to this game than math. I love advanced stats but people who rely on them solely to form an opinion on a player are just as ignorant as people who ignore them completely.

Melos ability to cut, shoot and post up allow you to run all sorts of offense for him. Way more than you can for Harden. Melo is one of the best post up wings in the league, we've seen him play in this triangle offense and we've seen him play in that fast pace offense in Denver. Back then he was playing a lot of pinch post in the half court stuff, shooting brilliantly from the elbow. In terms of points per possession post ups aren't that popular or regarded as being as efficient I get it, but to have a wing that can post up as well as any big man in the league is a gift. Aside from the triangle we've seen Melo in an abundance of pick and rolls/pops and other sets this year already never mind at his peak.

I'm sorry but Melos ability to do MORE in terms of scoring simply allows for more options for a coach. With Harden you are far more limited in that regard.

I'll take the small gap in efficiency for a guy that can post you up and use his exceptional footwork to get a basket, then spot up for a three, hit the mid range playing some pinch post, cut and finish off the ball and isolate taking a guy one on one all within about 5 minutes of action.

If the gap in efficiency was greater I might change my mind.

That's the scoring.

As for the playmaking? I agree. Harden I superior.

I think Melo is the better defender.

What's left? My count says 2-1 to Melo right now...

tredigs
11-23-2015, 06:51 PM
There is nothing small about the gap in their scoring ability, and it is laughable to say that Melo's is superior to Harden's. Your preference of not liking the way Harden scores does not change the fact that he is a more effective producer. Your "2>1" is a joke as well. I'm done entertaining you.

Vee-Rex
11-23-2015, 06:53 PM
In their primes I'd have to take Melo. I think Melo would be more efficient with the larger shot selection. I think he can defend a bit better and is a little more versatile in that department because of his size. Sure, Harden is a better passer, but Melo is the better rebounder.

Also, from a raw scoring standpoint I think Melo was better. I saw Harden getting shut down quite a bit last year, more than what I've seen of a prime Melo. Maybe it's because Melo also could score in more ways since he can post better. He's stronger in the paint... and this stuff really matters.

This has nothing to do with Harden's free throw attempts. I've played a lot of basketball in my life and I can say without a doubt that I wouldn't keep fouling a guy like that. His free throw attempts are just bizarre IMO.

His ability to sell the severity of contact is unique. Where other players get arms slapped and no calls made, Harden is able to make it look like a harder foul than it is (though it's still a foul), so that's how he goes to the line so much. It's just that there's no true solidarity... a foul should be a foul no matter how much someone sells it.

Gander13SM
11-23-2015, 06:59 PM
There is nothing small about the gap in their scoring ability, and it is laughable to say that Melo's is superior to Harden's. Your preference of not liking the way Harden scores does not change the fact that he is a more effective producer. Your "2>1" is a joke as well. I'm done entertaining you.

You're right. There is nothing small about their gap in scoring ability. Melo has a greater ability to score because he can do it in more ways. You did acknowledge the gap in efficiency between Melos best season and Hardens last season was similar (eFG%).

And again it's not about preference. It's about basketball. A guy who can score in more ways with similar efficiency is more valuable as a scorer.

You're done entertaining me? I'm done with talking to people who clearly know nothing about the game and judge everyone on nothing but numbers.

If Jordan couldn't post up as well as he did you think he would've been as great a scorer? Smh.

The more ways you can score, the more dangerous you are as a scorer.

The margin of efficiency isn't that big (between the two peak years). The way they scored is significantly different. Having a guy that can do everything Harden does in terms of scoring (shooting and driving) as well as scoring in MORE ways all the while doing so with a similar efficiency... sorry. That makes him a better scorer than Harden.

Gander13SM
11-23-2015, 07:04 PM
I was (and still am) completely open to someone changing my mind on this. Yet so far all I've seen are people comparing Hardens best year to Melos entire career, people with a lack of actual basketball knowledge who are over reliant on stats and probably don't even know what the pinch post is as well as people claiming being marginally more efficient trumps having a more varied skill set in regards to scoring.

Will someone please present an intelligent and thought provoking argument for Harden? I sort of want to vote for him, I just can't see how it's possible yet.

tredigs
11-23-2015, 07:06 PM
Why are you bringing up eFG%? I do not care about eFG%. It is a half-stat that is meaningless if we're talking about scoring ability.

I don't care if you think Melo can score in more ways. Harden has proven to create more offense at a more efficient clip than Melo. That is all that maters. Your opinions of aesthetics and versatility mean nothing. Wilt Chamberlain did not have half the scoring versatility as Chris Bosh. Guess what? That doesn't mater.

tredigs
11-23-2015, 07:08 PM
I was (and still am) completely open to someone changing my mind on this. Yet so far all I've seen are people comparing Hardens best year to Melos entire career, people with a lack of actual basketball knowledge who are over reliant on stats and probably don't even know what the pinch post is as well as people claiming being marginally more efficient trumps having a more varied skill set in regards to scoring.

Will someone please present an intelligent and thought provoking argument for Harden? I sort of want to vote for him, I just can't see how it's possible yet.

That's because you have no understanding of how to properly use stats/context, yet are still using them. Never bet on basketball.

5ass
11-23-2015, 07:18 PM
Show me a year Melo had better than Harden last season, and I'll show you why you don't know what you're talking about. Batter up -->

Exactly. I voted for Harden and I was not expecting the poll to be so much in favor of Melo. Harden put up one of the most efficient high USG offensive seasons in NBA history last year. I guess its because he's had a slow start to the season.

tredigs
11-23-2015, 07:52 PM
Exactly. I voted for Harden and I was not expecting the poll to be so much in favor of Melo. Harden put up one of the most efficient high USG offensive seasons in NBA history last year. I guess its because he's had a slow start to the season.

That's because most people now are victims of the moment, and he's had a bad month. Rest assure he would have owned this poll had it been made 6 months ago.

Mind you Harden is probably my least favorite player in the association. Cannot stand him. But, when he's at his best he is pretty ridiculously tough to stop and what he accomplished in carrying the Rox last year eclipses anything Melo's accomplished in this league, and it's why he nearly won MVP.

Edit: Melo has 6 seasons on Harden, and Harden already has him beat in total MVP award shares. That's nuts.

Edit 2: Also, New York is 4x the size of Houston and virtually everybody outside of Houston can't stand Harden. I wouldn't even be shocked if some Houston fans voted for Melo right now given what a wreck he's been lately. Dude needs to drop the ugly Kardashian quick before he lets her ruin his career.

D-Leethal
11-23-2015, 08:14 PM
I think Harden beats him in output but Melo is more of a matchup nightmare and forces the attention of multiple defenders than Harden. Unless I am completely mistaken, teams seem to guard Harden straight up way more than they do Melo, and that opens up a lot for an offense and makes life miserable for a defense. I wouldn't go ahead and say this warrants a nod for Melo in this debate, but I do think you could build a more dangerous contender around prime Melo than you could a prime Harden.

More-Than-Most
11-23-2015, 08:44 PM
Melo doesn't play defense is such a bs statement. Hardens defense makes Melo look all first team. Melo so far this year has really played good defense, still doesn't have any lift coming back from that knee injury. For whatever reason harden gets a ton of calls. It's close but I'd take Melo for now.

I dont think its close at all.. Melo gets GOAT treatment with foul calls from the refs for whatever reason and like you stated melo is all defensive first team compared to harden.

More-Than-Most
11-23-2015, 08:51 PM
You guys can ***** and moan about FT's all you want, but the bottom line is that these are not phantom calls, he's just fantastic at drawing contact. "But in the playoffs when refs swallow the whistle...". Yeah, no. In the playoffs the last 3 years he averages 10 FTA's a game. It's the highest percentage shot in the game, and he gets it as much as anyone. You can whine about the methods, but it doesn't take away from its effectiveness. He's a better perimeter shooter than Melo as well. A career 37% from behind the arc and shot it at 38% in the playoffs last year on a high volume. Melo's a 35% 3pt shooter who falls to a paltry 32% in the playoffs. Better distributor/playmaker? Harden by a wide margin. He's good for 6 to 8 assists a night and is always a threat to create. Melo's a black hole as often as not and won't get you more than 3 assist a game. You can say he's getting hockey assists yada yada, but Harden does as well. Overall, it's a massive gap in this department. Neither are good defenders, and I don't think Melo had a year where he was any more impressive than Harden's improved effort last season.

Harden is playing like hot garbage right now, but his best is very clearly better and more impactful than Melo's best. You guys didn't want to see advanced stats so I did not bother, but rest assure his best absolutely crushes Melo's best in VORP, RPM, etc. He has a larger impact, and it is not a tight debate.

Except one is the worst defender in the NBA and was literally HISTORICALLY bad defensively and hasnt gotten much better. On top of that I dont wanna hear the FT don't matter because its Effectiveness... That is bogus. Its only Effective because the refs give him ridiculous calls that Melo has not ever gotten... Again I watched the other night where he got a foul call when there was nobody within a foot of him and it seriously happens every single game... Its bogus and bad for basketball and bad basketball in general and just because its effective does not make him the better player. It makes him lucky and shows the other holes in his game by Relying on continuous ****** reffing instead of actually trying to evolve his game and being better and because of that he expects the calls and gets them.

Its bad basketball... Iverson use to get this same treatment and I hated it then as well. Again Historically bad defense who relies on free throws and has had super teams around him forever.

Vee-Rex
11-23-2015, 08:53 PM
Harden sells fouls. That's why he has led the NBA in free throw attempts 3 of the last 4 years, and I believe has the highest FTr (free throw attempts per shot attempt) in NBA history compared to wing players. He's dwarfing Jordan, dwarfing Lebron, dwarfing Kobe's and pretty much any other great wing player in the history of the game that takes a lot of shot attempts.

The reason for that is because when he's fouled and misses, it doesn't count as a shot attempt. I'm sorry, but if anyone believes Harden gets fouled more than any other wing in the history of the game then they're naive. All those guys got fouled tons of times. Harden just sells his extremely well, and personally I don't think a better acting job should allow for that discrepancy. A foul is a foul is a foul. Call it fair or not at all.

So no, all I see is inflated advanced stats because of Harden's ability to go to the line more than others.

Again, I'm not saying he's NOT fouled, I'm saying maybe 75% of his fouls are called whereas every other wing player is at like 50-60%, all because of an acting job.

More-Than-Most
11-23-2015, 08:58 PM
Also to me it has nothing to do with the moment because I laughed when people tried to say he was having a top 5 season last year and was the MVP... I laughed then and said it was moronic and I am saying it now... His defense is so beyond **** he should never be in any mvp or top 5 season discussion... Add in all of the horse **** calls he gets and the insane acting he does or complaining when he goes to the hole and it makes for extremely bad basketball all because he doesnt have the skill to evolve his game or be better... Instead exploits a weakness in NBA officiating and this inst a shot at you Tre because I love how you talk basketball its just pretty shocking that you tolerate his antics and holes in his games because of his scoring effectiveness when you have the privilege of actually watching real basketball in curry... Imagine if curry got the calls Harden got? Imagine how pissed off you'd be at curry if he played defense like Harden does? Do not say you wouldnt rage because you have raged on curry the last 5 games because of his passing lazyness and that is what harden is as an all around player.

JJ_JKidd
11-23-2015, 09:01 PM
I know this is a comparison thread, but I want to ask if this can stay on the main board for a few days.

I've never been a huge fan of either player (especially Carmelo). There are a lot of similarities between these players in that neither really play defense but both are fantastic if you need to get points. Which player has the superior peak (Harden just entered his)? At their peak, which player would you rather take and why? Which player has the superior career resume?

Melo is more offensively versatile than Harden. He has an excellent post game, midrange game and does not need a ton of dribbles to score unlike the self proclaimed MVP. I can only see two ways Harden can score: 1. ton of dribbles from the three point line then step back whatever; 2. tons of dribbles from the three point line, bulldozes his way to he paint, flails his elbows, snaps his neck, for a layup or a FT.

He defends better than Harden too. Cant compare the 2 tbh.

tredigs
11-23-2015, 09:02 PM
Harden sells fouls. That's why he has led the NBA in free throw attempts 3 of the last 4 years, and I believe has the highest FTr (free throw attempts per shot attempt) in NBA history compared to wing players. He's dwarfing Jordan, dwarfing Lebron, dwarfing Kobe's and pretty much any other great wing player in the history of the game that takes a lot of shot attempts.

The reason for that is because when he's fouled and misses, it doesn't count as a shot attempt. I'm sorry, but if anyone believes Harden gets fouled more than any other wing in the history of the game then they're naive. All those guys got fouled tons of times. Harden just sells his extremely well, and personally I don't think a better acting job should allow for that discrepancy. A foul is a foul is a foul. Call it fair or not at all.

So no, all I see is inflated advanced stats because of Harden's ability to go to the line more than others.

Again, I'm not saying he's NOT fouled, I'm saying maybe 75% of his fouls are called whereas every other wing player is at like 50-60%, all because of an acting job.

Am I supposed to pretend we live in an alternate reality where these fouls don't in fact impact how productive he is on the court?

I understand that you guys don't like that Harden is a genius at getting the refs to blow their whistle, what I don't get is that you're unable to separate your personal feelings from the fact that it is a reality. I don't like it either, but I'm not going to sit here and be petty + blind to their effect.

He's an amazing offensive player with or without the free throws he generates. But, those free throws do in fact separate his production from many, including Melo.

MTM, your post was horrible by the way. Less typing, more thinking.

For those who say Melo > Harden, I never want to see you cite an advanced stat again in favor of a player. Because you are ignoring virtually all of them in this argument.

More-Than-Most
11-23-2015, 09:04 PM
Am I supposed to pretend we live in an alternate reality where these fouls don't in fact impact how productive he is on the court?

I understand that you guys don't like that Harden is a genius at getting the refs to blow their whistle, what I don't get is that you're unable to separate your personal feelings from the fact that it is a reality. I don't like it either, but I'm not going to sit here and be petty + blind to their effect.

He's an amazing offensive player with or without the free throws he generates. But, those free throws do in fact separate his production from many, including Melo.

MTM, your post was horrible by the way. Less typing, more thinking.

For those who say Melo > Harden, I never want to see you cite an advanced stat again in favor of a player. Because you are ignoring virtually all of them in this argument.

So basically we give him credit for being better than a much better all around Offensive player in Melo because he knows how to jiggle the Jolly good ones of the refs? Again BAD BASKETBALL.

tredigs
11-23-2015, 09:08 PM
So basically we give him credit for being better than a much better all around Offensive player in Melo because he knows how to jiggle the Jolly good ones of the refs? Again BAD BASKETBALL.

Lol cool, dude. He led a depleted roster to the 2 seed in the West plus the Western Conference Finals while playing solid defense and nearly winning MVP. Putting up far better advanced stats as a more complete offensive player (scoring + distribution both at a higher level than Melo's best in any year). You have no leg to stand on, but you fight. I feel like I'm in a Monty Python movie arguing with you guys.

More-Than-Most
11-23-2015, 09:10 PM
Lol cool, dude. He led a depleted roster to the 2 seed in the West plus the Western Conference Finals while playing solid defense and nearly winning MVP. Putting up far better advanced stats as a more complete offensive player (scoring + distribution both at a higher level than Melo's best in any year). You have no leg to stand on, but you fight. I feel like I'm in a Monty Python movie arguing with you guys.

Solid defense and Harden in the same sentence... We need not go on from here. Its pointless. I am out... :love: you doh

tredigs
11-23-2015, 09:15 PM
Solid defense and Harden in the same sentence... We need not go on from here. Its pointless. I am out... :love: you doh
Yeah, that was the reality of his play last season. It was "fine" at worst despite some hilarious Harden .gif worthy moments. Far be it from you to be able to compartmentalize fact from narrative. Melo is not and has never been a dominant defender. It is beyond hilarious for that to be the cornerstone of your take.

That said, you are as loud a hater of Harden as there is on this site. I am not surprised in the least at your take here. I bet we could go quite a bit further down the gauntlet of lesser players before we find a player you'd concede that Harden has been more dominant then.

More-Than-Most
11-23-2015, 09:23 PM
Yeah, that was the reality of his play last season. It was "fine" at worst despite some hilarious Harden .gif worthy moments. Far be it from you to be able to compartmentalize fact from narrative. Melo is not and has never been a dominant defender. It is beyond hilarious for that to be the cornerstone of your take.

That said, you are as loud a hater of Harden as there is on this site. I am not surprised in the least at your take here. I bet we could go quite a bit further down the gauntlet of lesser players before we find a player you'd concede that Harden has been more dominant then.

I hate him because his play is bad for basketball and I never hid that fact... I have never said Melo is good at defense my take on Melo has been the same... He is a lazy defender that could have been a ton better had he actually tried to play defense or worked on it but as bad as Melo is Harden is honestly that much worse on defense.

tredigs
11-23-2015, 09:25 PM
I hate him because his play is bad for basketball and I never hid that fact... I have never said Melo is good at defense my take on Melo has been the same... He is a lazy defender that could have been a ton better had he actually tried to play defense or worked on it but as bad as Melo is Harden is honestly that much worse on defense.

Conjecture that you simply can't back up because it's not true. But, that's the reality of the Melo side in this debate.

Vee-Rex
11-23-2015, 09:27 PM
Am I supposed to pretend we live in an alternate reality where these fouls don't in fact impact how productive he is on the court?

I understand that you guys don't like that Harden is a genius at getting the refs to blow their whistle, what I don't get is that you're unable to separate your personal feelings from the fact that it is a reality. I don't like it either, but I'm not going to sit here and be petty + blind to their effect.

He's an amazing offensive player with or without the free throws he generates. But, those free throws do in fact separate his production from many, including Melo.

MTM, your post was horrible by the way. Less typing, more thinking.

For those who say Melo > Harden, I never want to see you cite an advanced stat again in favor of a player. Because you are ignoring virtually all of them in this argument.

The fouls do impact how effective he is.

But we all realize that his offensive skill output is heavily dependent on him getting to the line BASED off an acting performance. If he got to the line more just because he was fouled more (like Shaq for example), no one would have a problem with it. I'm not gonna rate him higher than another player because he acts better. And I think that's a fair stance for anyone to take.

tredigs
11-23-2015, 09:34 PM
The fouls do impact how effective he is.

But we all realize that his offensive skill output is heavily dependent on him getting to the line BASED off an acting performance. If he got to the line more just because he was fouled more (like Shaq for example), no one would have a problem with it. I'm not gonna rate him higher than another player because he acts better. And I think that's a fair stance for anyone to take.

Yeah, I mean, I think if you looked at his fouls more closely you'd find that you're wrong.

And regardless, I'm not rating the player based on how I like their playing style. I'm rating it based on their effectiveness. You know, that whole "reality" thing.

Funny thing is that Harden is clear as day more productive than Melo offensively with or without the FTA's. His distribution is better, and his shooting ability is better.

Anyway, I'm done talking about two players I can't stand in a debate without anybody having a smart take against Harden. Have fun with this.

More-Than-Most
11-23-2015, 09:40 PM
Yeah, I mean, I think if you looked at his fouls more closely you'd find that you're wrong.

And regardless, I'm not rating the player based on how I like their playing style. I'm rating it based on their effectiveness. You know, that whole "reality" thing.

Funny thing is that Harden is clear as day more productive than Melo offensively with or without the FTA's. His distribution is better, and his shooting ability is better.

Anyway, I'm done talking about two players I can't stand in a debate without anybody having a smart take against Harden. Have fun with this.

I think most people in here have hard plenty of smart takes on Harden :shrug:

Like again that thing called defense.

More-Than-Most
11-23-2015, 09:40 PM
The fouls do impact how effective he is.

But we all realize that his offensive skill output is heavily dependent on him getting to the line BASED off an acting performance. If he got to the line more just because he was fouled more (like Shaq for example), no one would have a problem with it. I'm not gonna rate him higher than another player because he acts better. And I think that's a fair stance for anyone to take.

:clap:

Vee-Rex
11-23-2015, 10:09 PM
Steroids would make one more effective. So would cheating. The numbers would still be reality.

Quite frankly, I don't care about "reality" if the numbers are skewed from something that's unfair.

I am NOT saying he's cheating, obviously. I'm saying it's unfair that he gets more fouls called REGULARLY per shot attempt than the careers of LeBron, Kobe, Jordan, Wade (I think it's less than but comparable to Wade in the '06 finals, which is absurd), and any other wing in NBA history.

There is no other sport where a player can benefit by acting.

NBA foul: excessive or unjustified contact that one player inflicts on another player.

It's a black/white rule. If referees are calling it at an X rate for the entire league, it's not fair to call it at a Y rate for one player (just because he acts better). I don't credit this to Harden's skill because we're watching basketball, not a movie. Acting (and flopping) is actually severely discouraged evidenced by fines and so forth.

PowerHouse
11-23-2015, 10:52 PM
I never understood the big outrage over Harden getting to the FT line a lot or getting "phantom" calls. How is it fair to hold him responsible for the decisions of the ref? The ref is his own man with his own mind, unless Harden has some jedi mind trick over these refs I dont see it as him doing anything unfair.

He notices that if he slashes to the rim a lot, he gets the whistle a lot and so he may take advantage of that but isnt that just sports? Kareem noticed that nobody could block his skyhook, so he took advantage of it. Shaq noticed he was bigger and stronger than his defenders, so he took advantage of it. Magic noticed that he was taller than all the other point guards so took advantage of his vision over the top of guys heads. Dirk noticed that if he fades away with his knee up, nobody can block his shot so he took advantage.

blahblahyoutoo
11-23-2015, 11:32 PM
I hate him because his play is bad for basketball and I never hid that fact... I have never said Melo is good at defense my take on Melo has been the same... He is a lazy defender that could have been a ton better had he actually tried to play defense or worked on it but as bad as Melo is Harden is honestly that much worse on defense.


melo isn't bad at defense solely because of a lack of effort. it's more because he's fat. he can barely get any lift because of his spare tire. even in offense he rarely plays above the rim.
his girth does make him a better rebounder though.

with that said, melo gets the nod over harden because harden flops.

Saddletramp
11-24-2015, 12:19 AM
There is no other sport where a player can benefit by acting.

Soccer says Hey, Bro!


He gets some super star calls, no doubt. A lot of guys do. He also gets hit a lot and it doesn't get called because some refs don't want to be "fooled" by his unorthodox driving.

He holds the ball out from his body. Players slap at the ball. A lot of times they miss the ball. It's not illegal to drive this way yet it's illegal to smack a guy on the arm. If you were playing in a 5v5 game and a guy drove to the basket near you, would you be more willing to pry the ball away from him if the ball was close to his body or out inches away from you?


I don't know how this still eludes some of you guys.

Vee-Rex
11-24-2015, 12:37 AM
Statistical benefit, I should've said.

All the greats have held the ball close and then extended their arms to draw contact. You're silly if you believe it's exclusive to just Harden.

It's the sell after the contact that draws the whistle.

To be honest I'm not sure why people get sensitive to the fact that people don't enjoy flopping and dramatics. It really has no place in the NBA.

Saddletramp
11-24-2015, 12:47 AM
Statistical benefit, I should've said.

All the greats have held the ball close and then extended their arms to draw contact. You're silly if you believe it's exclusive to just Harden.

It's the sell after the contact that draws the whistle.

To be honest I'm not sure why people get sensitive to the fact that people don't enjoy flopping and dramatics. It really has no place in the NBA.

I don't care what anybody likes or doesn't like to watch. It's all a personal preference. Just tired of hearing the same old *****fests. Some people make it sound like he flops for 10 of his 14 free throw attempts every game and always gets the call, which is bs. And are there seriously some Heat fans crying about Harden getting calls?


Also, pretty sure getting an opponent kicked out of a game because you flopped in soccer would be considered a "statistical benefit".

xxplayerxx23
11-24-2015, 11:25 AM
melo isn't bad at defense solely because of a lack of effort. it's more because he's fat. he can barely get any lift because of his spare tire. even in offense he rarely plays above the rim.
his girth does make him a better rebounder though.

with that said, melo gets the nod over harden because harden flops.

1- he isn't a bad defender #s speak for themselves
2- lmfao he's fat? Are you insane
3- agree he can't get lift yet but that will come

cmellofan15
11-24-2015, 12:29 PM
lmao someone give me a season where Melo competed for an MVP like Harden did last year

KnicksorBust
11-24-2015, 12:58 PM
You're right. There is nothing small about their gap in scoring ability. Melo has a greater ability to score because he can do it in more ways. You did acknowledge the gap in efficiency between Melos best season and Hardens last season was similar (eFG%).

And again it's not about preference. It's about basketball. A guy who can score in more ways with similar efficiency is more valuable as a scorer.

You're done entertaining me? I'm done with talking to people who clearly know nothing about the game and judge everyone on nothing but numbers.

If Jordan couldn't post up as well as he did you think he would've been as great a scorer? Smh.

The more ways you can score, the more dangerous you are as a scorer.

The margin of efficiency isn't that big (between the two peak years). The way they scored is significantly different. Having a guy that can do everything Harden does in terms of scoring (shooting and driving) as well as scoring in MORE ways all the while doing so with a similar efficiency... sorry. That makes him a better scorer than Harden.

I have Carmelo Anthony in my avator so I'm a little biased here... IT'S JAMES HARDEN.

During the 2012-2013 season Carmelo Anthony won his only scoring title while averaging 28.7ppg and rocking a strong 56% TS%. During the 2014-2015 season James Harden finished 2nd in scoring while averaging 27.4ppg and dominating the league with a 61% TS%. That's obscene. I believed someone used the phrase "hot garbage" to describe his level of play right now and he still has a TS% of 55% which is right in line with some of Melo's best seasons. I can safely say I've watched Carmelo Anthony played thousands of minutes of basketball. He can shoot from perimeter. He can drive and pull-up. He can finish at the rim. He can post-up. He can fade-away. He can essentially score in every way imaginable. I love watching it. The only problem is far too much of it is a straight pull-up in the mid-range. He cuts off half the floor and does his iso game. Yes he is great at it. That's why he is my 2nd favorite player. But Harden's game is more efficient. He's smarter. That ends the discussion. While Melo is pulling up for a mid-range jumper, Harden is at the foul line. While Melo is taking a fade-away, Harden is taking a 3pt'er. The efficiency isn't close. Harden's getting the foul line is one of the most valuable skills in the game. Whether you like it or not it puts other teams at the foul line and produces about 1.87 points per trip. That's winning basketball. Harden's last 4 seasons from an efficiency stand-point have been 4 of the best seasons from a guard in NBA History.

THIS IS COMPLETELY IGNORING HOW MUCH BETTER HARDEN IS AS A PASSER. That competition is even more lopsided.

This year's Harden is off to a rough start but last year's Harden was amazing and peak Melo was never on that level as a play-maker and efficient scorer.

FlashBolt
11-24-2015, 01:15 PM
I have Carmelo Anthony in my avator so I'm a little biased here... IT'S JAMES HARDEN.

During the 2012-2013 season Carmelo Anthony won his only scoring title while averaging 28.7ppg and rocking a strong 56% TS%. During the 2014-2015 season James Harden finished 2nd in scoring while averaging 27.4ppg and dominating the league with a 61% TS%. That's obscene. I believed someone used the phrase "hot garbage" to describe his level of play right now and he still has a TS% of 55% which is right in line with some of Melo's best seasons. I can safely say I've watched Carmelo Anthony played thousands of minutes of basketball. He can shoot from perimeter. He can drive and pull-up. He can finish at the rim. He can post-up. He can fade-away. He can essentially score in every way imaginable. I love watching it. The only problem is far too much of it is a straight pull-up in the mid-range. He cuts off half the floor and does his iso game. Yes he is great at it. That's why he is my 2nd favorite player. But Harden's game is more efficient. He's smarter. That ends the discussion. While Melo is pulling up for a mid-range jumper, Harden is at the foul line. While Melo is taking a fade-away, Harden is taking a 3pt'er. The efficiency isn't close. Harden's getting the foul line is one of the most valuable skills in the game. Whether you like it or not it puts other teams at the foul line and produces about 1.87 points per trip. That's winning basketball. Harden's last 4 seasons from an efficiency stand-point have been 4 of the best seasons from a guard in NBA History.

THIS IS COMPLETELY IGNORING HOW MUCH BETTER HARDEN IS AS A PASSER. That competition is even more lopsided.

This year's Harden is off to a rough start but last year's Harden was amazing and peak Melo was never on that level as a play-maker and efficient scorer.

At least you know Melo isn't a quitter. Harden looks like he wants to just walk out of the game when he plays terrible. At least Melo actually TRIES to play defense. Harden just ignores it and falls asleep. I agree, Harden last season beats Melo's best season but that is besides the point. I don't think you're using or understanding TS% correctly. You do realize it accounts for all the insane FT output of James Harden, right? No one in their right mind would say Harden is playing great right now because of his "TS%." If anything, that just shows how terrible he is outside of his FT's. The fact that he's at .550 with that amount of FT's and % with a crappy 2/3 point game is mind boggling bad. TS% doesn't prove jack right now so let's throw that away and use something a bit more credible.. like how 1/3rd of his points come from the FT line... or how he's taking 9 threes per game shooting 27% from the field. That's just terrible.

D-Leethal
11-24-2015, 01:25 PM
I think Harden would have a harder time adjusting to any era, adjusting to any culture of refereeing. As a basketball player, I do not think he is better than Carmelo Anthony, but his output in the 2015 era has been better. He relies a lot on current standard of rules (i.e. make life infinitely easier for penetrating guards) and standard of officiating (i.e. whistle any sign of minimal contact on guards driving to the rim, allowing floppers to thrive and defenders to play soft). I don't think Harden's skills are as robust as Melo's.

Scoots
11-24-2015, 01:27 PM
Statistical benefit, I should've said.

All the greats have held the ball close and then extended their arms to draw contact. You're silly if you believe it's exclusive to just Harden.

It's the sell after the contact that draws the whistle.

To be honest I'm not sure why people get sensitive to the fact that people don't enjoy flopping and dramatics. It really has no place in the NBA.

It's actually a skill Harden has developed. I don't like it, it's ugly basketball and I hate that the refs fall for his head snaps and the contact he creates against defenders making no mistakes ... but Harden has worked hard to develop skills to get the calls. He tries to get calls more than any player in history and he's worked at that SKILL to the point where he gets a lot of calls.

What I want is the refs to call the game as the rules intended and do it equally for all. Harden creates so much contact that he's actually getting fouled on a lot of plays where he's not getting the call too.

Steph Curry is getting more calls this year than at any point in his career, but he's still getting hacked and grabbed and pushed plenty of other times where there is no call. NBA players know there is a foul or 10 on every play and the refs not going to call them all ... if acting works then it's a good tactic to employ.

FlashBolt
11-24-2015, 01:33 PM
It's actually a skill Harden has developed. I don't like it, it's ugly basketball and I hate that the refs fall for his head snaps and the contact he creates against defenders making no mistakes ... but Harden has worked hard to develop skills to get the calls. He tries to get calls more than any player in history and he's worked at that SKILL to the point where he gets a lot of calls.

What I want is the refs to call the game as the rules intended and do it equally for all. Harden creates so much contact that he's actually getting fouled on a lot of plays where he's not getting the call too.

Steph Curry is getting more calls this year than at any point in his career, but he's still getting hacked and grabbed and pushed plenty of other times where there is no call. NBA players know there is a foul or 10 on every play and the refs not going to call them all ... if acting works then it's a good tactic to employ.

Harden flops, Curry doesn't. When a guy flops, you should think twice before giving him FT's. If it is legitimate, he shouldn't get the damn call if he's busy faking contact out there just so he knows that either he plays basketball or stop acting like he's in an action film. There's a 10 minute video of his flops.. so you are right that he tries harder than anyone to get a call for sure. I know LeBron used to flop but he hasn't done so at all the past two seasons.

Scoots
11-24-2015, 01:49 PM
Harden flops, Curry doesn't. When a guy flops, you should think twice before giving him FT's. If it is legitimate, he shouldn't get the damn call if he's busy faking contact out there just so he knows that either he plays basketball or stop acting like he's in an action film. There's a 10 minute video of his flops.. so you are right that he tries harder than anyone to get a call for sure. I know LeBron used to flop but he hasn't done so at all the past two seasons.

First off, Curry does flop some ... not enough to really call him a flopper, but Curry does occasionally exaggerate contact.

I totally agree that flopping should not be rewarded, however I also am fine with a player taking full advantage of the situation and as long as flops are called they are going to happen. It would be easy to clean it up if the league wanted to.

FlashBolt
11-24-2015, 01:58 PM
First off, Curry does flop some ... not enough to really call him a flopper, but Curry does occasionally exaggerate contact.

I totally agree that flopping should not be rewarded, however I also am fine with a player taking full advantage of the situation and as long as flops are called they are going to happen. It would be easy to clean it up if the league wanted to.

Is Curry flopping really something to be brought up, though? I'm talking about a guy who notoriously flops. I've seen plays where Harden could just stand his position when being posted up but he decides to flop, falls down, and lets the opponent score an easy bucket. He actively tries to find flopping positions. That's a skill indeed. Flopping should NEVER be awarded and a player taking full advantage should be fined once, fined much more for a second offense, and suspended for the next game without pay if caught. He's not taking advantage of the situation.. he's taking advantage of the system. Flops are called because refs can't see everything that goes on in the court and especially when Harden is driving to the paint and guys and hands are everywhere, they'll most likely call it. Taking advantage of the situation is completely different from taking advantage of the system. There is no way to stop flopping in a real time game unless you pause it to review -- which would cause a loss in viewers. So if he intends to take advantage of the situation, there is simply no solution other than hiring a team of flopper-detectors and start penalizing him for every blatant attempt at flopping. I'm pretty sure if Harden was fined $200,000, he would never think about flopping again. He needs to start worrying about his other prominent skills rather than flopping skill.

nycericanguy
11-24-2015, 02:00 PM
I have Carmelo Anthony in my avator so I'm a little biased here... IT'S JAMES HARDEN.

During the 2012-2013 season Carmelo Anthony won his only scoring title while averaging 28.7ppg and rocking a strong 56% TS%. During the 2014-2015 season James Harden finished 2nd in scoring while averaging 27.4ppg and dominating the league with a 61% TS%. That's obscene. I believed someone used the phrase "hot garbage" to describe his level of play right now and he still has a TS% of 55% which is right in line with some of Melo's best seasons. I can safely say I've watched Carmelo Anthony played thousands of minutes of basketball. He can shoot from perimeter. He can drive and pull-up. He can finish at the rim. He can post-up. He can fade-away. He can essentially score in every way imaginable. I love watching it. The only problem is far too much of it is a straight pull-up in the mid-range. He cuts off half the floor and does his iso game. Yes he is great at it. That's why he is my 2nd favorite player. But Harden's game is more efficient. He's smarter. That ends the discussion. While Melo is pulling up for a mid-range jumper, Harden is at the foul line. While Melo is taking a fade-away, Harden is taking a 3pt'er. The efficiency isn't close. Harden's getting the foul line is one of the most valuable skills in the game. Whether you like it or not it puts other teams at the foul line and produces about 1.87 points per trip. That's winning basketball. Harden's last 4 seasons from an efficiency stand-point have been 4 of the best seasons from a guard in NBA History.

THIS IS COMPLETELY IGNORING HOW MUCH BETTER HARDEN IS AS A PASSER. That competition is even more lopsided.

This year's Harden is off to a rough start but last year's Harden was amazing and peak Melo was never on that level as a play-maker and efficient scorer.

Ok but comparing Melo in '12-13 to Harden last year, Melo shot a higher % overall and a higher % from 3. Harden simply had a higher TS % because of FT's... I mean Melo gets to the line at a decent clip, but no one can compete with Harden when it comes to ft's.

and Harden basically plays PG, so yes he's going to get more assists, but he also turns it over a lot more than Melo. ANd of course Melo rebounds more.

Really at the end of the day I think Melo is a better basketball player, but he doesn't flop... or at least nowhere near the level that Harden does. I don't really look at flopping or acting as a basketball skill, but that's what separates Harden from Melo, and from most guys really when it comes to the advanced stats. So I suppose Harden wins the overall production based off that.

Scoots
11-24-2015, 02:19 PM
Is Curry flopping really something to be brought up, though? I'm talking about a guy who notoriously flops. I've seen plays where Harden could just stand his position when being posted up but he decides to flop, falls down, and lets the opponent score an easy bucket. He actively tries to find flopping positions. That's a skill indeed. Flopping should NEVER be awarded and a player taking full advantage should be fined once, fined much more for a second offense, and suspended for the next game without pay if caught. He's not taking advantage of the situation.. he's taking advantage of the system. Flops are called because refs can't see everything that goes on in the court and especially when Harden is driving to the paint and guys and hands are everywhere, they'll most likely call it. Taking advantage of the situation is completely different from taking advantage of the system. There is no way to stop flopping in a real time game unless you pause it to review -- which would cause a loss in viewers. So if he intends to take advantage of the situation, there is simply no solution other than hiring a team of flopper-detectors and start penalizing him for every blatant attempt at flopping. I'm pretty sure if Harden was fined $200,000, he would never think about flopping again. He needs to start worrying about his other prominent skills rather than flopping skill.

First off, I didn't bring up Curry flopping, you did. I think when it comes to sports, and particularly with behavior people find morally wrong, if someone says X player does A but Y player doesn't it quickly becomes how Y player really does do A and not about the egregiousness of the act.

Flopping should never be rewarded no doubt. And your idea for a solution is pretty close to mine. When they came up with the flopping system now in place it was evident from the press release that the league didn't really care about fixing the problem since there is no real process to stop it from happening ... players get some warnings arbitrarily and occasionally for flopping, the fines are inconsistent and too small, and most importantly there is no escalation. I think the first SUCCESSFUL flop should be a warning (success measured by the player getting the call from the ref), the 2nd successful flop is a $5k fine, the 3rd is a 1 game suspension, the 4th is a 3 game suspension, the 5th a 7 game suspension, then reset back to warning for the next one. I think the flop calls should be made by an outside group with no association with the NBA referees (who don't want to show up their pals) ... maybe can do the job? Have the public submit plays for review and have the members of the NBA press vote flop/no flop on them. But it should not be players or refs making that call.

As far as taking advantage ... that's what Curry is doing by honing his ball handling and 3 point shooting. Curry is bending the game, just in a more aesthetic way than Harden is, but they are both taking advantage of the application of the rules.

If you look at the history of motorsport where the rules are simple and concrete every team is looking to take advantage of the enforcement of those rules for every race. The "spirit of the rule" doesn't matter at all in the actual sport, what matters is the application of the rule and as long as the people applying the rule let it happen it will be part of the sport, whatever it is.

Harden should be commended for mastering this skill, and he should be made outdated by changes in the application of the rules in short order, just like they are talking about changing the 3 point line because of Curry.

Gander13SM
11-24-2015, 02:28 PM
That's because you have no understanding of how to properly use stats/context, yet are still using them. Never bet on basketball.

Lmao. Based on what? The fact that you think eFG% is useless? I bet you still quote PER to people you ****ing relic. I know, you want us to use TS% because it takes into account Hardens free throws? And without them his production doesn't come close to Melo.

I never put money on anything unless it's poker. That requires skill.

And you have still yet to prove you have any basketball knowledge. Have you ever played in your life? Coached? Done anything related to basketball other than throw away your wages on it based on math?

tredigs
11-24-2015, 02:50 PM
Yes, child, I'm fully aware that your cherry picking of half-stats (I see you, eFG%) that favor Melo in order to half heartedly try to prove a point that ultimately (in that whole 'reality' thing again), are not true. I wouldn't even bother with TS%, you want their PPP.

Poker player, ay? Good, then you're familiar with the term "on tilt". That's you, kid. And you're no longer making any sense what so ever. You're just blindly firing hate and conjecture. Take a step back, breathe, and reevaluate where you went wrong here. Because I'm done making the points for you.

I've played/coached and yes spent far more money backing up my mouth than you ever will.

D-Leethal
11-24-2015, 03:24 PM
I don't think you need to live in an alternate reality where FT's don't count towards production, but you can acknowledge that how the game is officiated changes from season to season, era to era, and right now we are in an era of officiating that benefits Harden big time and does the complete opposite for a guy like Melo. Small, penetrating guards who flop are given much bigger advantages than they were years ago.

There are a lot of external factors that go into a players output. A lot of those factors change from season to season, era to era. It's not much different than great shooters that played before the 3 ball became a weapon had less of an impact than they would now. The same exact player could hypothetically have a much different impact in one era than he would in another, due to rule changes, current style, makeup of the league, officiating patterns.

I wouldn't expect that to sway anyone from saying Harden's season last year is better production wise than Melo's best season. I don't think that makes him a better basketball player. But that is unfortunately what we are limited to when it comes to comparing players.

D-Leethal
11-24-2015, 03:37 PM
I don't think eFG is a half stat either. Your scoring efficiency during live, fluid game action against an active defense should be isolated from your ability to hit FTs unguarded during a stoppage in play. They are two completely different animals.

tredigs
11-24-2015, 03:46 PM
I don't think eFG is a half stat either. Your scoring efficiency during live, fluid game action against an active defense should be isolated from your ability to hit FTs unguarded during a stoppage in play. They are two completely different animals.

Only when there becomes a point in an NBA game where a player is not given the potential for FT attempts if he is fouled. As it stands, a players overall scoring ability is ultimately what matters when talking about... their scoring ability. Also does not change the fact that Harden is a better perimeter shooter and a significantly better play maker. Even in the fairy tale land where we are saying that all of Harden's FT's are irrelevant (a joke of a debate anyway. He gets to the line on average not even once more per game than Melo's peak), he's the better offensive player. And in reality land, it's why his RPM crushed anything Melo has ever produced, and ultimately why he was able to lead such a mediocre/injury riddled roster so far last season.

Gander13SM
11-24-2015, 03:47 PM
PPP... let's use another stat that inflates Hardens performance by taking into account the excessive amount of free throws he gets.

I don't know why you find this so hard to grasp. It's as if HOW a player gets points means nothing to you.

Does Harden get a similar amount of points/production on better efficiency? Yes. Does that make him more skilled? No.

Because Melo can get the same production in a variety of ways.

Let me ask you this, if you were running Gentrys Corner offense what role would Melo play in this offense? Go through every offense you're aware of and tell me that you can't fit Melo into more of these than Harden.

How a player gets these points defines their skill level. Melo can simply score in more ways than Harden can. I wouldn't go as far as calling Harden one dimensional because he's far from it. But we all know he prefers going left and that his only other consistent move is that nasty step back. He just doesn't have the same skill set as Melo.

Whether you like how these guys score is irrelevant. You could love free throw shooting and still think that Hardens ability to score does not have the same variety as Melo.

cmellofan15
11-24-2015, 04:28 PM
it seems like every stat except eFG seems to inflate Harden's performance lmao. he was clearly better last year than Melo was at any point in his career and I don't see how it is really debatable. all these hypothetical, made up scenarios mean nothing.

also, why do you keep arguing for their play styles? the style of play has nothing to do with whether or not they are producing, and one of them produced more efficiently than the other (hint: Harden).

Scoots
11-24-2015, 04:28 PM
Let me ask you this, if you were running Gentrys Corner offense what role would Melo play in this offense? Go through every offense you're aware of and tell me that you can't fit Melo into more of these than Harden.

Don't much care for the tone this has degenerated to between you two ... but this is an excellent point and one I was having trouble wording.

tredigs
11-24-2015, 04:33 PM
I've seen Harden excel in a hell of a lot more ways offensively than I have Melo. We do all remember Harden in OKC as an off the ball 6th man and crunch-time player, yes? His superior shooting ability + playmaking ability make him much more versatile.

Redrum187
11-24-2015, 04:55 PM
Just my opinion:

The way(s) a player scores is incredibly overrated. I don't care if someone shoots granny style from 3, as long as it goes in and it counts as 3 points I'm good. I don't care if they can score right at the rim, or from half-court. I look at production and ignore the variety of ways a player CAN score when determining the superior player.

I'll be the first to say I HATE when James Harden jerks his head back after every attack to the rim. It clearly works for him though. As a result of this, he is a better scorer (in terms of efficiency) than Carmelo.

The question one ought to ask is: Would I rather have a more dynamic scorer, or a more efficient scorer who puts up roughly the same number of points? It should be a no-brainer, the more efficient scorer.

Furthermore, people are overrating Carmelo's rebounding advantage. I would argue Harden is a better rebounder for his position than Carmelo is for his. The argument of "Harden basically plays PG" (meaning he is suppose to get more assists) works, but Carmelo playing SF/PF and him supposed to get more rebounds DOESN'T apply? Harden is a better rebounder than Carmelo is facilitator. To those that say "Harden gets more assists but he turns the ball over more", well, his assist/turnover ratio is far and away better than Carmelo's; Carmelo is essentially a 1/1 assist/turnover player which is pretty terrible.

I totally understand WHY people say Carmelo is the superior player and better scorer. I just don't think it's very objective to state because of Harden's ft's and because Carmelo is a more dynamic (and less efficient) scorer.

Redrum187
11-24-2015, 05:01 PM
Comparing their postseason success. Until last year, Harden was thought of as a player who shut down come playoffs. He definitely increased his stock last postseason (minus the game he was benched and the team came back to win the game/series). He hasn't played as long so he still has time to do something remarkable.

Carmelo has been in the league for quite some time now. He hasn't done jack in the postseason. He has historically had a difficult time getting out of the first round. There is nothing significant he has done whatsoever. Even though Harden has played fewer postseasons, I think what he did last season is exponentially better than anything Carmelo has done.

(This is coming from someone who dislikes both players. I'm just trying to be as objective as possible.)

Scoots
11-24-2015, 05:28 PM
Just my opinion:

The way(s) a player scores is incredibly overrated. I don't care if someone shoots granny style from 3, as long as it goes in and it counts as 3 points I'm good. I don't care if they can score right at the rim, or from half-court. I look at production and ignore the variety of ways a player CAN score when determining the superior player.

Ahh, but Steph Curry creates space for his teammates BECAUSE he's so good with the ball way outside, and he demands that the pick man blitz because he so good inside (leading the league in FG% on shots at the rim which is insane) on drives. If Curry could only score at that rate at the rim or only shoot from the outside he wouldn't be nearly as important to the Warriors offense. DeAndre Jordan most scores when other people create the shot while CP3 can score when he creates the shot and his ability to score at a high rate from the midrange lets him move defenders around and get the ball to DeAndre to score. It does matter HOW you score, not just how much you score or even how efficient you are at it.

Gander13SM
11-24-2015, 05:33 PM
Just my opinion:

The way(s) a player scores is incredibly overrated. I don't care if someone shoots granny style from 3, as long as it goes in and it counts as 3 points I'm good. I don't care if they can score right at the rim, or from half-court. I look at production and ignore the variety of ways a player CAN score when determining the superior player.



Fair enough. But I completely disagree. The more ways you can score the more skilled you are as a scorer, it's simple. For example, Kyle Korver V Klay Thompson, scoring wise they're both elite perimiter threats that play exceptionally well off the ball. What seperates them as scorers isn't their efficiency as 3pt shooters because they're both elite, it's Klays ability to finish at the rim and he even has a little post game. Korver, aside from shooting only really has value as a semi-decent pick and roll ball handler.



I've seen Harden excel in a hell of a lot more ways offensively than I have Melo. We do all remember Harden in OKC as an off the ball 6th man and crunch-time player, yes? His superior shooting ability + playmaking ability make him much more versatile.

OKC barely had an offense to run during this "era". It's just a bunch of isolations and some high screen PnR action. There's no way you could fit Harden into as many offenses as you could Melo. Melo is quite simply the more versatile scorer, his skillset outweighs Hardens.

Now if you want to argue (which I think you do) that Harden is better because of his efficiency and how he gets these points doesn't matter, as long as he's getting them. Then fine. I accept that. I don't agree with that making him a more skilled player, but it is what it is.

If you're trying to argue that Harden has a comparable skillset and that he can score in the variety of ways Melo can and can be used in the variety of ways Melo can (pinch post, low post, spot up shooter, isolation scorer, cutter/slasher etc etc etc) or that you can fit him into as many offensive systems as you can Melo, then I sincerely think you're lacking any form of basketball knowledge outside of an adept understanding of advanced metrics OR you're in denial.

Either way I think it best to end the conversation (between the two of us) right here. I don't feel like either of us are going to come around to the others argument and repeating ourself over and over is becoming tedious imo.

Gander13SM
11-24-2015, 05:45 PM
it seems like every stat except eFG seems to inflate Harden's performance lmao.

Unfortunately a lot of these advanced metrics are heavily flawed in that sense (when you take them as individual numbers and don't apply proper context) PER for example rewards players for the more shots a player takes, and it rewards steals for some random reason. It's at a point where the guy who created it has completely abandoned it and admitted how flawed it truly is as a stand alone stat and that it can only be used as a support mechanism not as a be all and end all.

Scoots
11-24-2015, 05:58 PM
I've got to say that I have no horse in this race, and am actually more of a fan of Harden than Melo ... but Harden's offensive style is harder to maximize a team around than Melo's ... at least from what we've seen so far. Harden has a more varied skill set and both have been ball stoppers in the past. Melo at his peak was an effortless scorer who I believe would fit better on more teams than Harden would ... but I'm not sure that makes Melo better or Harden worse necessarily.

If a team could be built to maximize Harden's ability would they beat a team built to maximize Melo's? I don't know.

For example, if you put prime Melo on this Warriors team I think they would be even more devastating, but if you put prime Harden on this Warriors team they might get worse. He just doesn't fit. Harden would LOVE to be throwing the ball out to Thompson/Curry/Barnes/Green/Iguodala for the open 3 ... but I don't think those 5 would love playing with him.

Gander13SM
11-24-2015, 06:06 PM
I've got to say that I have no horse in this race, and am actually more of a fan of Harden than Melo ... but Harden's offensive style is harder to maximize a team around than Melo's ... at least from what we've seen so far. Harden has a more varied skill set and both have been ball stoppers in the past. Melo at his peak was an effortless scorer who I believe would fit better on more teams than Harden would ... but I'm not sure that makes Melo better or Harden worse necessarily.

If a team could be built to maximize Harden's ability would they beat a team built to maximize Melo's? I don't know.

For example, if you put prime Melo on this Warriors team I think they would be even more devastating, but if you put prime Harden on this Warriors team they might get worse. He just doesn't fit. Harden would LOVE to be throwing the ball out to Thompson/Curry/Barnes/Green/Iguodala for the open 3 ... but I don't think those 5 would love playing with him.

I completely agree.

Really, I don't know what it is about my first post that has people so angry.



I'm not sure we've seen Harden at his peak yet but I'm confident we have seen Melo at his peak.

That makes this a difficult decision. Right now it's Harden without even thinking about it.

If you take prime Melo and put him up against Harden last year (his best season so far imo) I think I would lean towards Melo. At the end of the day he was better defensively, still not a good defender, but better than Harden ever has been. On top of that you have the ability of posting up as well as cutting and deep shooting. He's a more versatile scorer.

I hate comparisons like this because I've always felt you need to know the rest of the roster. I mean one thing Harden has over Melo is the ability to initiate an offense. You can run your offense through both in regards to them being at the end of plays but Harden can also initiate these plays, aside from LeBron I reckon Harden is the best passer in this league that doesn't play the 1. So although Melo is the more complete scorer, Harden might be the more complete offensive player.

I would need to check but I'm going to hazard a guess and say Harden is the more efficient scorer?

I'll go with Melo purely because I actually enjoyed watching him play when he was at his peak. I respect the hell out of Hardens game and when he's on he's great to watch but (and I know it's becoming cliché at this point) I can't stand watching him through himself into the lane trying to draw fouls. And this is coming from a guy who was a big fan of prime Wade.

But I'm open to an argument in favor of Harden changing my mind.



I don't actually LIKE either of them. I probably prefer prime Melo if you make me choose but I'm not an advocate for either.

nickdymez
11-24-2015, 07:54 PM
Melo is one of the best pure scores I've seen play the game. He doesn't rely on anything except the fact that he knows he can torch anybody. His efficiency isn't as high obviously, but hes not getting bailed out as much as harden.

Harden relys to much on getting fouled and going to the line. Although that's the direction that the NBA is going in, I don't respect it and im not scared as a fan of an opposing team. Hardens production always falls off in the playoffs (At least in crunch time) because the refs generally call a looser game, which works to the detriment of Harden.

Crackadalic
11-24-2015, 08:38 PM
Idk but every time I see melo play, the other team always have another guy ready to double team him or make it tough on him and because Melo's offensive IQ is low he makes silly passes or bad shots butthat just shows how scared teams are with melo as a one on one threat. How often does Harden get doubled team on a game by game basis. Plus Melo is the most least superstar that never gets calls. I swear it's worse then Griffin on some nights smh

Redrum187
11-24-2015, 11:31 PM
Ahh, but Steph Curry creates space for his teammates BECAUSE he's so good with the ball way outside, and he demands that the pick man blitz because he so good inside (leading the league in FG% on shots at the rim which is insane) on drives. If Curry could only score at that rate at the rim or only shoot from the outside he wouldn't be nearly as important to the Warriors offense. DeAndre Jordan most scores when other people create the shot while CP3 can score when he creates the shot and his ability to score at a high rate from the midrange lets him move defenders around and get the ball to DeAndre to score. It does matter HOW you score, not just how much you score or even how efficient you are at it.

In a team game, I completely agree. When comparing player A to player B, I think it is relevant, but overrated.

Curry is a deadly outside shooter, no debate there. Harden is a deadly slasher. There are relatively equal advantages to both styles. They are 2 extremes of 2 completely different ways to get points. Harden slashes, gets fouled, kicks out to the open man for the 3; Curry dribbles around the perimeter, has a quick shot, passes to the open perimeter player or inside man for an easy shot.

When talking about Carmelo though, he is no Curry, so his dynamic scoring is less prestigious in my opinion. As someone said earlier, Wilt Chamberlain is not nearly as dynamic of a scorer as Chris Bosh, but Wilt is light-years ahead of Bosh offensively.

Redrum187
11-24-2015, 11:35 PM
Fair enough. But I completely disagree. The more ways you can score the more skilled you are as a scorer, it's simple. For example, Kyle Korver V Klay Thompson, scoring wise they're both elite perimiter threats that play exceptionally well off the ball. What seperates them as scorers isn't their efficiency as 3pt shooters because they're both elite, it's Klays ability to finish at the rim and he even has a little post game. Korver, aside from shooting only really has value as a semi-decent pick and roll ball handler.


I'm not sure if "skilled" is the right word. I think "dynamic" is a better word. It takes skill to do what Harden does, it's just not as diverse/dynamic as Carmelo. However, it comes back to the other question I posed. Would you rather have a more dynamic scorer who is less efficient and doesn't make his teammates better to the same degree as a player who scores just as many points but noticeably more efficient while making their teammates better?

FlashBolt
11-25-2015, 12:59 AM
First off, I didn't bring up Curry flopping, you did. I think when it comes to sports, and particularly with behavior people find morally wrong, if someone says X player does A but Y player doesn't it quickly becomes how Y player really does do A and not about the egregiousness of the act.

Flopping should never be rewarded no doubt. And your idea for a solution is pretty close to mine. When they came up with the flopping system now in place it was evident from the press release that the league didn't really care about fixing the problem since there is no real process to stop it from happening ... players get some warnings arbitrarily and occasionally for flopping, the fines are inconsistent and too small, and most importantly there is no escalation. I think the first SUCCESSFUL flop should be a warning (success measured by the player getting the call from the ref), the 2nd successful flop is a $5k fine, the 3rd is a 1 game suspension, the 4th is a 3 game suspension, the 5th a 7 game suspension, then reset back to warning for the next one. I think the flop calls should be made by an outside group with no association with the NBA referees (who don't want to show up their pals) ... maybe can do the job? Have the public submit plays for review and have the members of the NBA press vote flop/no flop on them. But it should not be players or refs making that call.

As far as taking advantage ... that's what Curry is doing by honing his ball handling and 3 point shooting. Curry is bending the game, just in a more aesthetic way than Harden is, but they are both taking advantage of the application of the rules.

If you look at the history of motorsport where the rules are simple and concrete every team is looking to take advantage of the enforcement of those rules for every race. The "spirit of the rule" doesn't matter at all in the actual sport, what matters is the application of the rule and as long as the people applying the rule let it happen it will be part of the sport, whatever it is.

Harden should be commended for mastering this skill, and he should be made outdated by changes in the application of the rules in short order, just like they are talking about changing the 3 point line because of Curry.

I brought up Curry's lack of flopping, that I did. I'm well aware many players have flopped but it is insignificant compared to the master of flops, Harden. You're proving my point.. this guy is "mastering" a form of acting that doesn't involve any basketball skill. It's incredibly pathetic when I watch this guy resort to flopping rather than actually go out there and play basketball. Commended for mastering flopping? This is basketball.. I hope you are well aware of that before you type such nonsense. Could you imagine a league if teams just decided to flop 24/7? Note: There wouldn't be a league.

FlashBolt
11-25-2015, 01:10 AM
Haha, Melo is way more skilled than Harden at scoring.. Whenever Harden has a high scoring game, just look at his FT's. His game is based off primarily, the FT line. That's where most of his points are coming from. Granted, he is great at that so if you want to call that an "offensive weapon", go for it. Melo is one of the most gifted scorers and would probably have been for the past decade if it weren't for Durant and Kobe, and now, Curry. He can do ANYTHING offensively. Harden, not so much. Just because the guy has a higher TS%, it doesn't mean jack. No one in their right mind would ever say Harden was a better offensive option than Kobe... and it's pretty evident who is a Houston fan if you think otherwise.

Redrum187
11-25-2015, 01:26 AM
Haha, Melo is way more skilled than Harden at scoring.. Whenever Harden has a high scoring game, just look at his FT's. His game is based off primarily, the FT line. That's where most of his points are coming from. Granted, he is great at that so if you want to call that an "offensive weapon", go for it. Melo is one of the most gifted scorers and would probably have been for the past decade if it weren't for Durant and Kobe, and now, Curry. He can do ANYTHING offensively. Harden, not so much. Just because the guy has a higher TS%, it doesn't mean jack. No one in their right mind would ever say Harden was a better offensive option than Kobe... and it's pretty evident who is a Houston fan if you think otherwise.

I don't like how he gets all the calls either. However, being completely objective, an "offensive weapon" is an offensive maneuver which yields points. Everyone ought to be calling his slashing maneuver an "offensive weapon". He either finishes at the rim, makes the kick out pass, or jerks his head back where he shoots free throws.

Also, I'm not sure anyone is saying Harden is as dynamic of a scorer as Carmelo. I think almost 100% of us agree Carmelo is the more dynamic scorer. Almost 100% of people agree Harden is the superior efficient scorer, scoring roughly the same points/game as peak Carmelo as well. The part people DON'T agree on is that Harden is the superior offensive player due to his efficiency AND playmaking abilities.

FlashBolt
11-25-2015, 01:35 AM
I don't like how he gets all the calls either. However, being completely objective, an "offensive weapon" is an offensive maneuver which yields points. Everyone ought to be calling his slashing maneuver an "offensive weapon". He either finishes at the rim, makes the kick out pass, or jerks his head back where he shoots free throws.

Also, I'm not sure anyone is saying Harden is as dynamic of a scorer as Carmelo. I think almost 100% of us agree Carmelo is the more dynamic scorer. Almost 100% of people agree Harden is the superior efficient scorer, scoring roughly the same points/game as peak Carmelo as well. The part people DON'T agree on is that Harden is the superior offensive player due to his efficiency AND playmaking abilities.

No question Harden last season was better than any of Melo's previous season for the exact reasons you mentioned in your last sentence. My post was specifically based on scoring. Melo has earned a reputation for being one of the clutchest players in the game. That doesn't come without evidence in his game. And I disagree with you on how he gets those calls. There's a difference between forcing a foul call from pretending there is a foul. One guy will dominate you to the point where you HAVE to foul them, the other, fakes it.

Redrum187
11-25-2015, 01:56 AM
No question Harden last season was better than any of Melo's previous season for the exact reasons you mentioned in your last sentence. My post was specifically based on scoring. Melo has earned a reputation for being one of the clutchest players in the game. That doesn't come without evidence in his game. And I disagree with you on how he gets those calls. There's a difference between forcing a foul call from pretending there is a foul. One guy will dominate you to the point where you HAVE to foul them, the other, fakes it.

It's a distinction without a difference in the NBA. The end result is, he gets to shoot free throws and they count as 1 point for every free throw he makes.

Trust me, that is the reason why I don't like Harden, but his desire to be a thespian on the basketball court yields more offensive production. Unless and until the league changes their stance on it, I have to count his antics as an effective offensive maneuver. Having said that, he'll never be in my list of favorite players (not that he would care anyways lol).

Scoots
11-25-2015, 02:19 AM
I brought up Curry's lack of flopping, that I did. I'm well aware many players have flopped but it is insignificant compared to the master of flops, Harden. You're proving my point.. this guy is "mastering" a form of acting that doesn't involve any basketball skill. It's incredibly pathetic when I watch this guy resort to flopping rather than actually go out there and play basketball. Commended for mastering flopping? This is basketball.. I hope you are well aware of that before you type such nonsense. Could you imagine a league if teams just decided to flop 24/7? Note: There wouldn't be a league.

Harden should be commended for mastering the art of drawing fouls, not flopping. And I'm not going to blame him for the league not making it a losing tactic. Are intentional fouls, moving picks and screens, and the all too common grabbing and hooking also "incredibly pathetic"? These are all commonplace parts of the game and all are outside of the rules but teams that do none of those things will never win. Harden is just maximizing a less common and less savory part of playing a minimally officiated sport.

FlashBolt
11-25-2015, 02:35 AM
Harden should be commended for mastering the art of drawing fouls, not flopping. And I'm not going to blame him for the league not making it a losing tactic. Are intentional fouls, moving picks and screens, and the all too common grabbing and hooking also "incredibly pathetic"? These are all commonplace parts of the game and all are outside of the rules but teams that do none of those things will never win. Harden is just maximizing a less common and less savory part of playing a minimally officiated sport.

You're condoning a guy who knowingly deceives the referee to get foul calls. There's a difference in what you call "the art of drawing fouls" from what he does do, which is flop to get those calls. He doesn't have to jerk his head when someone swipes down to smack the ball away from him. Refs aren't going to see everything and they have a moral duty to treat every player the same regardless of whether the "boy cries wolf" every time. He should be commended for deceiving refs? Because that's what he does... offensively and defensively. Your comparison of moving picks/screens and grabbing/hooking are way off compared to a guy who acts as if he was on the receiving end of a tackle.

FlashBolt
11-25-2015, 02:39 AM
It's a distinction without a difference in the NBA. The end result is, he gets to shoot free throws and they count as 1 point for every free throw he makes.

Trust me, that is the reason why I don't like Harden, but his desire to be a thespian on the basketball court yields more offensive production. Unless and until the league changes their stance on it, I have to count his antics as an effective offensive maneuver. Having said that, he'll never be in my list of favorite players (not that he would care anyways lol).

I guess that's two separate POV's. I look at Curry and see a legitimate scorer who does it effortlessly and then I see a guy who jerks his head faking contact and who at the dust of the wind, is sent flying.

Scoots
11-25-2015, 02:39 AM
You're condoning a guy who knowingly deceives the referee to get foul calls. There's a difference in what you call "the art of drawing fouls" from what he does do, which is flop to get those calls. He doesn't have to jerk his head when someone swipes down to smack the ball away from him. Refs aren't going to see everything and they have a moral duty to treat every player the same regardless of whether the "boy cries wolf" every time. He should be commended for deceiving refs? Because that's what he does... offensively and defensively. Your comparison of moving picks/screens and grabbing/hooking are way off compared to a guy who acts as if he was on the receiving end of a tackle.

I said specifically "not flopping" I also said I don't like his game ... Harden is very good at drawing legitimate fouls.

I hate the flopping and it would be easily removed from the game if the NBA wanted it to be.

FlashBolt
11-25-2015, 02:47 AM
I said specifically "not flopping" I also said I don't like his game ... Harden is very good at drawing legitimate fouls.

I hate the flopping and it would be easily removed from the game if the NBA wanted it to be.

I have a reason to believe a guy who actively flops would also portray a foul when there doesn't seem to be one as well. Such as him driving to the paint, seeing your arm there in a solid position, and then smacking his own arm into yours and causing that foul. He's done it many times as well. He is very good at drawing legitimate fouls -- which is why I even question his attempts to flop. Wade was perhaps the best at doing so during his prime. He would fake a shot and force those fouls or he would drive to the paint, see you come towards him, and move his body in a way that forces your landing to hit him. That's completely different from what I've seen Harden tried to do. I think it is also detrimental to Harden's offensive game mentally -- which is why when refs aren't blowing the whistle, he seems to have a tough time to get back into the game offensively.

Scoots
11-25-2015, 02:52 AM
I have a reason to believe a guy who actively flops would also portray a foul when there doesn't seem to be one as well. Such as him driving to the paint, seeing your arm there in a solid position, and then smacking his own arm into yours and causing that foul. He's done it many times as well. He is very good at drawing legitimate fouls -- which is why I even question his attempts to flop. Wade was perhaps the best at doing so during his prime. He would fake a shot and force those fouls or he would drive to the paint, see you come towards him, and move his body in a way that forces your landing to hit him. That's completely different from what I've seen Harden tried to do. I think it is also detrimental to Harden's offensive game mentally -- which is why when refs aren't blowing the whistle, he seems to have a tough time to get back into the game offensively.

Yeah, I don't like his game either, but I can't deny it's effectiveness.

Vee-Rex
11-25-2015, 11:42 AM
Yeah, I don't like his game either, but I can't deny it's effectiveness.

It's only effective when the refs are fooled.

I'd love to find a way to see James Harden's production and advanced numbers when he's limited to just a few free throws or less a game. Unless he happens to be hot, I get the feeling he'd be rather terrible, especially when you account for his defensive woes.

Every fan of the NBA knows the refs can be extremely fickle when blowing the whistle, especially in the playoffs. With that in mind, I do NOT want my number one option/go-to-player/bonafide-star/batman-team-saving-hero to not only be completely dependent and reliant on these stupid referees to generate offense, but largely ineffective when he doesn't go to the line (exception being getting hot and scoring non-stop, but even Mo Williams can do this and put up 50).

MonroeFAN
11-25-2015, 12:06 PM
Am I supposed to pretend we live in an alternate reality where these fouls don't in fact impact how productive he is on the court?

I understand that you guys don't like that Harden is a genius at getting the refs to blow their whistle, what I don't get is that you're unable to separate your personal feelings from the fact that it is a reality. I don't like it either, but I'm not going to sit here and be petty + blind to their effect.

He's an amazing offensive player with or without the free throws he generates. But, those free throws do in fact separate his production from many, including Melo.

MTM, your post was horrible by the way. Less typing, more thinking.

For those who say Melo > Harden, I never want to see you cite an advanced stat again in favor of a player. Because you are ignoring virtually all of them in this argument.

You really are an arrogant little **** aren't you? Who made you King Money Ball? Get a grip.

I don't want to see YOU talk about basketball ever again because without your advanced metrics you know nothing. How would you have evaluated a player pre '00s? Oh wait, you wouldn't have had to. You probably weren't even born.

Listen you smug little ****. If you're not even going to entertain other people's opinions you are the definition of ignorance. Closed mindedness.

The gap in their offensive efficiency IS NOT THAT BIG between peak years. The gap in skill level and ways to score is MASSIVE.

His advanced metrics are skewed because of how many ******** calls the refs give him. That does not make him a better player. Melo can shoot just as well, attach the basket just as well AND post up. I've given you the evidence for this already and you just blindly ignore it.

If you rate a player as being more skilled because he can flop better, you need to just find another sport buddy. You clearly don't know **** about this game.

I'm out here trying to have a civilised basketball discussion and you just come rampaging through hurling out these condescending and arrogant remarks like you're working in an NBA analytic department. Check yourself. Nobody comes on here to have some smug little ***** talking down to them because their opinion is different.

Are you actually going to present an argument for Harden that includes an analysis of his game beyond the numbers? Or are you incapable of doing so?

You sound like a major idiot. How about win %, is that a valid argument for Harden? So combined with the fact that he is basically better at everything, he also wins more.

The idea that someone thinks the answer is Melo is absolute blasphemy.

Scoots
11-25-2015, 12:31 PM
It's only effective when the refs are fooled.

Yep. But that's not Harden's fault really. They are fooled when a lot of players do it, it's just that most players don't build their game around it to the level he did.

I would LOVE to have the NBA solve the flopping problem and I detailed earlier in this thread how they could do that in just a couple weeks. But they don't really seem to want to stop the flop.

The NBA wants this James Harden for whatever reason.

MELO 15
11-25-2015, 12:56 PM
Haha, Melo is way more skilled than Harden at scoring.. Whenever Harden has a high scoring game, just look at his FT's. His game is based off primarily, the FT line. That's where most of his points are coming from. Granted, he is great at that so if you want to call that an "offensive weapon", go for it. Melo is one of the most gifted scorers and would probably have been for the past decade if it weren't for Durant and Kobe, and now, Curry. He can do ANYTHING offensively. Harden, not so much. Just because the guy has a higher TS%, it doesn't mean jack. No one in their right mind would ever say Harden was a better offensive option than Kobe... and it's pretty evident who is a Houston fan if you think otherwise.

A lot of people who know me on this forum can tell just by my Screen Name Im of the back going to be Bias, but I will tell it like it is.

Melo is my favorite player in the NBA, but when he is messing up, ask other guys from the knicks forum, and they'll tell you.....I call him out and critique him.

Last year I thought that calling the MVP race was tough because the rockets had less talent than the warriors, and although the warriors had a better record I felt that Harden was a little more deserving of the MVP.

Im going to be honest here, Prime Melo would Ish on harden.

It was mentioned a couple of times on this forum, Melo can play D. if he is motivated. Look at when he goes against guys like Durant, Lebron, and Kobe.... Those have watched can tell you he is up for the challenge, Heck I think there is some stat that Melo this year is holding opponents that he defends to low percentages and that he is top three defensively....I don't think harden has it in him to be motivated to play anyone defensively much less has ever been in any category defensively to holding players that he guards to low percentages. Does that mean Melo has always been a great defender? No, it just means that He isn't consistent on the the defensive side of the ball.

But Offensively, if anyone argues that Harden is better, needs to know this....
Harden relies on getting to the free throw line. And there's nothing wrong with that, My problem is that the refs bail him out on some Phantom calls, now does that happen to other players? Im sure of it. But it's just the rate of times that alarms me, the guy is what you call a flop artist, that knows how to sell the flop, to me that is not a great offensive player. There was a game I was watching where harden had like 50 points, and when I went to check the stat line he went to the line 25 times! 25 freaking times! That's un heard of, you find a player that has led the league in scoring that has actually went to the line once in there career that went to the line that many times, and if you find one, show me one that has done three times in a season ill guarantee you won't find one! Except James Harden, that's is not an offensively skilled player, it's someone who has mastered the ways of deception.

Melo on the other hand doesn't get the benefits of the calls as far as going to the line.
As a matter of fact, look into the 62 point game he had, and I can almost guarantee that he didn't go to the line more 12 times. So what does that tell you about his game? He doesn't have to rely on the refs whistle to earn him his points.

Im sorry, but even at this stage Melo is playing better than him, and Im not just talking scoring the ball, because Harden has one of the worst percentages still making a living off of the line which is why he avg more points, Im talking over all game.

From My end, and forget being Biased, Im just talking truth. It's Melo.

nycericanguy
11-25-2015, 01:10 PM
You sound like a major idiot. How about win %, is that a valid argument for Harden? So combined with the fact that he is basically better at everything, he also wins more.

The idea that someone thinks the answer is Melo is absolute blasphemy.

How does Harden win more? Pretty sure Melo had led his teams to about a 60% win % before the last 2 disastrous years in NY... but then Melo never had anyone as good as Dwight Howard or Durant, or Westbrook... heck the last 2 years he didn't even have anyone as good as Ibaka or Chandler Parsons...lol.

slashsnake
11-25-2015, 02:27 PM
How does Harden win more? Pretty sure Melo had led his teams to about a 60% win % before the last 2 disastrous years in NY... but then Melo never had anyone as good as Dwight Howard or Durant, or Westbrook... heck the last 2 years he didn't even have anyone as good as Ibaka or Chandler Parsons...lol.

They did pretty well in Denver when he missed games and after he left. But I do think you are right that the guys that were winners, that were great, tended to try and stay away from him.

Offensively that is tough. I think Melo is as talented as they come offensively. Post up, midrange, off the dribble... He's great. The one knock I have as someone above is saying is he's settling more now for the jumpers. He used to be one of the best at attacking the rim and getting to the line. He used to shoot 40% of his shots or more at the rim... Now, past 3 years that is less than 20%. It's why the past few years his shooting % is way down even though he's shooting as well as ever.



But how often do we see Harden putting a D on their heels and collapsing them and kicking it out for open 3's. How often do we see him putting opponents bigs in foul trouble? Those are huge things... that's part of what made younger Melo's game so good. Getting to the rim at will is a MASSIVE benefit to the entire offense. More easy shots, more open shooters, more fouls drawn.

And like someone above me says...free throws are a huge part to scoring. Melo about 9 free throws a game his best scoring year. Harden at his best is around 10 a game in houston. Past couple seasons when Melo hasn't been as great of a scorer...6 a game. It isn't just the points at the line it's aggressively getting easy buckets.

2015 Melo season high in scoring... same games as his season high in free throws. (Only 30+ point game is his only 10+ free throw game)

2014 Melo. Only 40 point game. Season high 16 trips to the line. 8 games all year last year with 10+ trips to the line. Half of them were his top 8 scoring games.

2013 Melo 10, 11, 7, 9, 12 trips to the line in his 40+ pt games. Bottom scoring? 0, 5, 5, 3, 3.... 10 trips to the line in his 60 pt game, 0 to the line in his 10 point game.

2012... 31 games with 30+ pts. 14 with at least 10 trips to the line. 36 with less than 30 points, 4 with more than 10 free throws. His scoring championship year

2011... more of the same, top scoring games, 9, 15, 9,5, 15, 5, 14, 13, 8, 8, 16 free throws. Bottom scoring, 1, 0, 4, 1, 4, 6, 0, 1, 4, 5, 2...

2010... Had a 50 pt game, 18 free throws. Top games 4 scoring games had 18 free throws in one, 17 in two of the others. Bottom scoring, 0, 2, 4, 3, 3, 4, 4...

09... Now getting to one of his best scoring years. Top games, 16, 7, 12, 19, 17, 7, 16, 20, 13, 12 in free throw attempts. Lowest scoring games, 3, 4, 7, 5, 9, 2...



It is scary when you just sort his games by scoring, and you see that monster free throw attempt number just work it's way down as his scoring does the same.

His 7 seasons scoring 25+ had his 5 highest free throw rates. his 6 scoring under 25 have his 4 lowest.


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Chronz
11-25-2015, 03:31 PM
At their peaks, Melo had 1 post season run as impressive as Hardens, only he accomplished it without the monster regular season campaign. So to me its Harden, who gives a **** how aesthetically pleasing someones game is, I know I would rather my team have the highest chance to win than please the crowd. I do loathe watching the Rockets now but there is no denying Hardens offensive brilliance. Hes the FAR more efficient scorer and the FAR better playmaker. That efficiency does decline in the post season but its not for lack of calls moreso than hes more predictable in his attack and predictability is easier to contain when opponents can game plan. Melo has seen his efficiency drop off as well. Versatility is only a plus if it enhances your teams efficiency overall and you have to prove he does that at a higher rate than Harden's playmaking game.

mrblisterdundee
11-25-2015, 04:21 PM
Harden's a better playmaker and foul-baiter than Anthony. The only thing Melo's significantly better than Harden at is rebounding.
And like someone else said, you have to take the roster into account. Anthony's usage rate was more than 30 percent in Denver, from his rookie season on. Harden's usage rate in Oklahoma City was 20 percent. We can't really know what Harden would have done without Westbrook and Durant in front of him. Even in Houston, Harden has never reached the peak usage rates of Anthony in Denver and New York.
Compare the two stars in seasons where they were used the most. Anthony's peak was in 2012-13 in New York, when he was used 35 percent of the time. Harden's was last year, when he was used 31 percent of the time in Houston. They both had similar shooting percentages from the field, the foul line and from three-point land. Anthony scored one more point and grabbed one more rebound per 36 minutes than Harden. Meanwhile, Harden dished 2.7 times as many assists than Anthony and attempted 35 percent more free throws.
Even just entering his prime, Harden has already proved he can do everything Anthony can and more.

FlashBolt
11-25-2015, 05:07 PM
But Melo is the better scoring weapon -- which is not debatable here. Efficiency/the total package, yes, I already said Harden is superior. He just does more in terms of being the overall package. Melo is just a rebounder/scorer and he's a top ten scorer in NBA history IMO. Name ten players who can score the way Melo can.

Redrum187
11-25-2015, 08:00 PM
But Melo is the better scoring weapon -- which is not debatable here. Efficiency/the total package, yes, I already said Harden is superior. He just does more in terms of being the overall package. Melo is just a rebounder/scorer and he's a top ten scorer in NBA history IMO. Name ten players who can score the way Melo can.

Being more dynamic doesn't necessarily equate to being the better scoring weapon. As Chronz said, what good is being more dynamic when it doesn't yield better efficiency for one's self or the team?

tredigs
11-25-2015, 08:19 PM
But Melo is the better scoring weapon -- which is not debatable here. Efficiency/the total package, yes, I already said Harden is superior. He just does more in terms of being the overall package. Melo is just a rebounder/scorer and he's a top ten scorer in NBA history IMO. Name ten players who can score the way Melo can.

The "way", or better?

I'll name ten better scorers off the top of my head:

Rick Barry
Wilt Chamberlain
Jerry West
Larry Bird
Lebron James
Kobe Bryant
Michael Jordan
Kevin Durant
Kareem Abdul Jabaar
Shaq
David Robinson
Karl Malone
Adrian Dantley
Chris Mullen
Charles Barkley
Elgin Baylor
George Gervin
Dirk Nowitzki

I don't know, is that 10 yet?

I'd put him with Drexler, Moses Malone, D Wade, Paul Pierce, Nique etc around ~30th.

tredigs
11-25-2015, 08:35 PM
Or we could keep it to ten better peak year scorers than Melo in the last 25 years alone:

Jordan
Hakeem
D. Rob
Malone
Durant
Wade
Lebron
McGrady
Shaq
Kobe

I could easily argue 10 other names here including Harden, Curry, Gilbert Arenas, AI, PP, Dominique, Barkley, etc.

It's been said before and I'll say it again: Melo is a more finesse style/less throwdown in your face style version of Dominique Wilkins. Neither will stand the test of time in comparison to the greats, and neither were certainly top 10 scorers ever.

Chronz
11-25-2015, 11:09 PM
But Melo is the better scoring weapon -- which is not debatable here. Efficiency/the total package, yes, I already said Harden is superior. He just does more in terms of being the overall package. Melo is just a rebounder/scorer and he's a top ten scorer in NBA history IMO. Name ten players who can score the way Melo can.

Its VERY debatable but even if it werent, who cares about a "Scoring weapon" when what matters most is an OFFENSIVE weapon?

Dude, lots of guys dont need to rely on the low% shots Melo does, why does that make him better?