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View Full Version : If Dirk Nowitzki joins the 30,000 point club, where does he rank all time?



HouRealCoach
11-21-2015, 12:36 PM
He's currently at 28,300+ points. Also has a ring, Finals MVP, and a season MVP... Multiple times he kept his team at the top of the league seed wise. Only huge knocks on him was the choke in 2006 Finals and the 2007 first round. Always held his ground against the best PF ever Tim Duncan.

But is he top 15 if he reaches 30,000? As long as he doesn't retire after this year I think he can do it

KnicksorBust
11-21-2015, 12:38 PM
Top 15 no way

HandsOnTheWheel
11-21-2015, 12:39 PM
Assuming he doesn't win another, only having 1 chip hurts him but I'd say it's a possibility.

KnicksorBust
11-21-2015, 12:44 PM
Top 12 is pretty standard in various orders:
Mj
Kaj
Magic
Duncan
Kobe
Russell
Wilt
Lebron
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses

Then
Oscar
West

Then it gets messy. Are you willing to claim Dirk is #2 PF of all-time ahead of Malone, Barkley, and KG?

HandsOnTheWheel
11-21-2015, 12:51 PM
Karl and Barkley never won a ring despite their production. KG and Dirk is a tossup imo.

FlashBolt
11-21-2015, 12:56 PM
It's not farfetched to say Dirk is the 2nd greatest PF. I don't see any issues with that whatsoever. Besides Duncan, he's the greatest performing Playoff player in the KG/Malone/Barkley department. He has stayed with one team his entire career, he has carried his team for quite some time now.

HouRealCoach
11-21-2015, 12:57 PM
Karl and Barkley never won a ring despite their production. KG and Dirk is a tossup imo.

That's exactly how I see it

FlashBolt
11-21-2015, 01:14 PM
That's exactly how I see it

KG/Dirk never faced Jordan. That's how I see it as well.

KnicksorBust
11-21-2015, 01:18 PM
Karl and Barkley never won a ring despite their production. KG and Dirk is a tossup imo.

Malone's regular seasons are significantly better than Dirk... is it fair to simplify the whole debate down to Dirk's 1 title?

KnicksorBust
11-21-2015, 01:19 PM
It's not farfetched to say Dirk is the 2nd greatest PF. I don't see any issues with that whatsoever. Besides Duncan, he's the greatest performing Playoff player in the KG/Malone/Barkley department. He has stayed with one team his entire career, he has carried his team for quite some time now.

How much does staying with one team enhance his career? Or anyones?

FlashBolt
11-21-2015, 01:22 PM
How much does staying with one team enhance his career? Or anyones?

I'm someone who doesn't typically care about that but when you stick your entire career out with one team and produce spectacular results as the leading player of that team, there has to be some merit in that. It would be foolish to not give any reward to a guy who just plays basketball regardless of the situation and excel at it -- just like he's doing this season. Remember, Mavs were supposed to be out of or barely in the playoffs (8th spot maybe?). No one gave them a chance after losing DJ.

mngopher35
11-21-2015, 01:40 PM
Honestly I don't think hitting 30,000 does much for his legacy itself but he is in the top 20 all time now due to his longevity and the 2011 run.

Chronz
11-21-2015, 01:43 PM
What if we had a player who was able to play till he was 50 and amassed the most points in NBA history, the only catch is that he was a 0x All-Star.... would that kind of longevity/accolade really get a regular guy into any GOAT ranks?

Thumper 88
11-21-2015, 02:02 PM
Labron? That high up? I'm sure he will get there if he keeps playing but he shouldn't be that high atm.

As for Dirk? Yes. It should also solidify his spot as the second best PF ever. The longevity and great play he is having atm should speak volumes about how great he is.

He honestly might be the most underrated player in the top 15 - 20

KnicksorBust
11-21-2015, 02:04 PM
What if we had a player who was able to play till he was 50 and amassed the most points in NBA history, the only catch is that he was a 0x All-Star.... would that kind of longevity/accolade really get a regular guy into any GOAT ranks?

Who is making that argument?

Thumper 88
11-21-2015, 02:05 PM
What if we had a player who was able to play till he was 50 and amassed the most points in NBA history, the only catch is that he was a 0x All-Star.... would that kind of longevity/accolade really get a regular guy into any GOAT ranks?

Pretty high honestly.

Let's say he started playing at age 22. That would be 28 seasons. Let's just say that this guy averaged 75 games a year throughout his career. That would put him at 23.8 points per game which is pretty crazy for a 50 years plus he would have the all-time points record. So yeah he should be pretty high on the list

Chronz
11-21-2015, 02:18 PM
Who is making that argument?
Hopefully no one but I guess we have to respect all opinions dont we.

Chronz
11-21-2015, 02:22 PM
Pretty high honestly.

Let's say he started playing at age 22. That would be 28 seasons. Let's just say that this guy averaged 75 games a year throughout his career. That would put him at 23.8 points per game which is pretty crazy for a 50 years plus he would have the all-time points record. So yeah he should be pretty high on the list

How high we talking here. Like above Dominique types? Gervin or Iverson types?

Thumper 88
11-21-2015, 02:32 PM
How high we talking here. Like above Dominique types? Gervin or Iverson types?

I honestly don't know but someone with resume should be in top 25 imo. 50k points? That's huge! Avg 23.8 @50 yrs old? That's crazy iron man status right there.

Redrum187
11-21-2015, 04:04 PM
I don't think getting 1700 more points makes him any better. Having said that, he IS the 2ND best PF the game has ever seen. I have him any where from no better than 13 (no homers), no worse than 20 (no haters). I will agree though, his continued beastly numbers should easily give him the edge over Garnett if superior playoff performance didn't for you already.

He is also putting up beastly numbers in limited minutes this season! :D

PowerHouse
11-21-2015, 04:30 PM
Pretty high honestly.

Let's say he started playing at age 22. That would be 28 seasons. Let's just say that this guy averaged 75 games a year throughout his career. That would put him at 23.8 points per game which is pretty crazy for a 50 years plus he would have the all-time points record. So yeah he should be pretty high on the list

Yep. And to say that this player would get shafted out of the AS game 28 years in a row while scoring 24 ppg is a far-fetched fantasy to say the least. (but so would the notion of playing until age of 50 too I guess)

Chronz
11-21-2015, 04:39 PM
Yep. And to say that this player would get shafted out of the AS game 28 years in a row while scoring 24 ppg is a far-fetched fantasy to say the least. (but so would the notion of playing until age of 50 too I guess)

Hes an inefficient scorer who plays no defense, doesn't create for others, doesn't rebound above average and plays on the worst teams in the league. Thats his career. Is that legendary?

PowerHouse
11-21-2015, 04:50 PM
Hes an inefficient scorer who plays no defense, doesn't create for others, doesn't rebound above average and plays on the worst teams in the league. Thats his career. Is that legendary?

Based on that info, not legendary no. Dirk on the other hand is very efficient.

This player would go down in history as the most legendary health/conditioning wise though.

rhino17
11-21-2015, 04:52 PM
As much as I absolutely hate anything associated with the city of Dallas, which clearly includes the Mavs

Dirk is already on my top 15 list. He is the only player in Hakeem's category of winning a ring without a true #2 star (as much as I love Mad Max and JET), they are probably the worst #2 players to win rings. That accomplishment alone puts him on my top 15 list

He might be as high as the #2 PF of all time for me.

PowerHouse
11-21-2015, 05:27 PM
^There was also Rick Barry who won the '75 championship with a bunch of nobodys except Jamaal Wilkes as a wide-eyed rookie.

Chronz
11-21-2015, 07:37 PM
As much as I absolutely hate anything associated with the city of Dallas, which clearly includes the Mavs

Dirk is already on my top 15 list. He is the only player in Hakeem's category of winning a ring without a true #2 star (as much as I love Mad Max and JET), they are probably the worst #2 players to win rings. That accomplishment alone puts him on my top 15 list

He might be as high as the #2 PF of all time for me.

OTIS Thorpe?

More-Than-Most
11-21-2015, 08:30 PM
Not as good as porz.... top 20-25 in my opinion

More-Than-Most
11-21-2015, 08:32 PM
Labron? That high up? I'm sure he will get there if he keeps playing but he shouldn't be that high atm.

As for Dirk? Yes. It should also solidify his spot as the second best PF ever. The longevity and great play he is having atm should speak volumes about how great he is.

He honestly might be the most underrated player in the top 15 - 20

Lebron is in my top 5 :shrug: Most have him in the top 7... How is that high exactly?

Bostonjorge
11-21-2015, 08:39 PM
Top 12 is pretty standard in various orders:
Mj
Kaj
Magic
Duncan
Kobe
Russell
Wilt
Lebron
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses

Then
Oscar
West

Then it gets messy. Are you willing to claim Dirk is #2 PF of all-time ahead of Malone, Barkley, and KG?

I have dirk top 3 PF with Duncan and KG. Maybe right at #15 for him.

KnicksorBust
11-21-2015, 08:52 PM
Not as good as porz.... top 20-25 in my opinion

People should enjoy these years while Dirk is better than KP.

KnicksorBust
11-21-2015, 09:09 PM
Top 12 is pretty standard in various orders:
Mj
Kaj
Magic
Duncan
Kobe
Russell
Wilt
Lebron
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses

Then
Oscar
West

Then it gets messy. Are you willing to claim Dirk is #2 PF of all-time ahead of Malone, Barkley, and KG?

I have dirk top 3 PF with Duncan and KG. Maybe right at #15 for him.

What about David Robinson?

KnicksorBust
11-21-2015, 09:10 PM
Is Dirk ahead of Drob, Dr. J, Bob Pettit?

Thumper 88
11-21-2015, 10:06 PM
Lebron is in my top 5 :shrug: Most have him in the top 7... How is that high exactly?

Why so high though. Hakeem has better stats than him and that guy has him 4 spots higher.

KnicksorBust
11-21-2015, 10:59 PM
As much as I absolutely hate anything associated with the city of Dallas, which clearly includes the Mavs

Dirk is already on my top 15 list. He is the only player in Hakeem's category of winning a ring without a true #2 star (as much as I love Mad Max and JET), they are probably the worst #2 players to win rings. That accomplishment alone puts him on my top 15 list

He might be as high as the #2 PF of all time for me.

Who would you bump from

Mj
Kaj
Magic
Duncan
Kobe
Russell
Wilt
Lebron
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Oscar
West
Drob

Bostonjorge
11-21-2015, 11:02 PM
Is Dirk ahead of Drob, Dr. J, Bob Pettit?

Dirk did lead his team to a title. Robinson and Oscar never did they were carried by other forces.

FlashBolt
11-21-2015, 11:21 PM
Why so high though. Hakeem has better stats than him and that guy has him 4 spots higher.

Very few have had better stats than LeBron (less than a handful), so don't make lies up lol... Hakeem doesn't have better stats but he is right now higher than LeBron due to longevity.

Thumper 88
11-21-2015, 11:40 PM
More points
More rebounds
More blocks
Tied in championship
Tied in finales mvp's
More everything defensively

Only thing Lebron has on him is two more mvp's.

Not saying he won't pass him but stats wise he hasn't

YAALREADYKNO
11-22-2015, 10:24 PM
How is Dirk not a top 15 player of all time? One of four players to avg 25 & 10 in the playoffs, NBA MVP, NBA champion, Finals MVP, 7th all time in scoring and will probably pass shaq in a few months. How is that not good enough for top 15?

Hawkeye15
11-22-2015, 10:31 PM
somewhere between 18-25 for me off the top of my head

KnicksorBust
11-22-2015, 11:03 PM
How is Dirk not a top 15 player of all time? One of four players to avg 25 & 10 in the playoffs, NBA MVP, NBA champion, Finals MVP, 7th all time in scoring and will probably pass shaq in a few months. How is that not good enough for top 15?

Look at the list ahead of him and pick a name to bump. That is the whole challenge. I love Dirk but top 15 is pretty damn high for the entire history of the sport.

Thumper 88
11-23-2015, 10:38 AM
Put him behind Hakeem.

Daze9900
11-23-2015, 10:52 AM
Crazy how ppl are sleeping on his international play as well. I have no problem with putting Malone ahead of him but to me this is a toss up as well. Dirk revolutionized the way big man play the game, broke down the european soft label and really pioneered the international game. Guys like him and Pau are generational players should be first ballot and I'm surprised at how much people are underrating him

Thumper 88
11-23-2015, 12:35 PM
Dirk has always been underrated

KnicksorBust
11-23-2015, 12:49 PM
Put him behind Hakeem.

ahead of Moses Malone?

KnicksorBust
11-23-2015, 12:50 PM
Crazy how ppl are sleeping on his international play as well. I have no problem with putting Malone ahead of him but to me this is a toss up as well. Dirk revolutionized the way big man play the game, broke down the european soft label and really pioneered the international game. Guys like him and Pau are generational players should be first ballot and I'm surprised at how much people are underrating him

What does his international play have to do with anything? Do you actually think he is top 15 of all-time? I think it's crazier to see people just saying "1 ring" and auto-ranking him ahead of other all-time greats. And this is coming from a guy who is an admitted ring freak. :laugh:

Seriously check out my top 15 and tell me where you would put Dirk...

MJ
KAJ
Magic
Duncan
Kobe
Russell
LeBron
Bird
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Oscar
West
DRob

Chronz
11-23-2015, 01:30 PM
I have dirk top 3 PF with Duncan and KG. Maybe right at #15 for him.

Whats the deciding factor? Where does Elvin Hayes rank if its about titles.

YAALREADYKNO
11-23-2015, 02:18 PM
What does his international play have to do with anything? Do you actually think he is top 15 of all-time? I think it's crazier to see people just saying "1 ring" and auto-ranking him ahead of other all-time greats. And this is coming from a guy who is an admitted ring freak. :laugh:

Seriously check out my top 15 and tell me where you would put Dirk...

MJ
KAJ
Magic
Duncan
Kobe
Russell
LeBron
Bird
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Oscar
West
DRob

How can he not be right up there with Drob or even Oscar? Dirk was a better playoff performer than Drob and Oscar only led his team to a 50+ win season ONE time. Dirk did it 11 straight years with Jason terry and josh howard as his best players for most the time

Wade n Fade
11-23-2015, 02:59 PM
I am going to stick with the contrarian point. I think that Dirk ought to be ranked in the top 15 of all time. His impact goes beyond his stats and lone championship. He revolutionized the game so much. The term "stretch four" is synonymous with Dirk. He is also a class act too. Inspiring so many bigs to work on their shooting and play with a ton of heart. People look at on the court performance as the sole basis for top 50 players of all time. I like intangibles, which are harder to measure beyond the the eye test, even it's "beauty" in the eyes of the "beholder."

Jordan, Dirk, Russell, Robertson, Duncan, Wade, Shaq, Hakeem, Magic are some of the greats that revolutionized their positions in some facet. Guys like AI, Kobe, Melo, and Durant are some of the purest scorers of all time, but didn't revolutionize their positions as much as the other guys I mentioned. It goes back to my intangibles fascination. But I will get crap because I am making a contrarian argument. I relish it too.

tredigs
11-23-2015, 06:17 PM
The same place you have him ranked the day before he joined the 30K point club.

JasonJohnHorn
11-24-2015, 01:55 AM
30,000 is impressive, but there will be guys added to that list every generation, and while it will be a mark of distinction, it isn't going to add much to a resume. I mean, Duncan likely won't get there, but nobody's every going to be like "Ah, but he didn't get 30G's!"

Melo, LBJ, and KD will all be on there. Looks like Curry too. Hell, maybe even Blake, Westy, and Harden, depending on health.

With careers lasting 15-20 years instead of 10-12, there will be a lot more guys entering that club, and it will be a lot less exclusive.

An amazing accomplishment, but not one that is going to raise his stock much if at all.

JasonJohnHorn
11-24-2015, 02:02 AM
I am going to stick with the contrarian point. I think that Dirk ought to be ranked in the top 15 of all time. His impact goes beyond his stats and lone championship. He revolutionized the game so much. The term "stretch four" is synonymous with Dirk. He is also a class act too. Inspiring so many bigs to work on their shooting and play with a ton of heart. People look at on the court performance as the sole basis for top 50 players of all time. I like intangibles, which are harder to measure beyond the the eye test, even it's "beauty" in the eyes of the "beholder."

Jordan, Dirk, Russell, Robertson, Duncan, Wade, Shaq, Hakeem, Magic are some of the greats that revolutionized their positions in some facet. Guys like AI, Kobe, Melo, and Durant are some of the purest scorers of all time, but didn't revolutionize their positions as much as the other guys I mentioned. It goes back to my intangibles fascination. But I will get crap because I am making a contrarian argument. I relish it too.



I like the spirit of your argument, but I disagree with folks you say revolutized positions.

Jordan, Russell, The Big O, and Magic, yes. Bird, of course. Dr. J can be thrown in there, as well as Pippen and LBJ to a lesser extent. I thinks even KD to a lesser extent.

Dirk? He's just Bird light without the amazing passing game or high defensive IQ. Duncan? The best, but he's a classic big man, as was Hakeem. Hakeem had the greatest foot work of all time, but he wasn't doing anything that Wilt didn't do before him. Shaq... the only thing that set him apart was his size. Where guys like LBJ took what Magic and Jordan did at PG and SG and did it at SF, nobody took what Shaq did and tried to repeat it; he was just a freak of nature, not a guy who revolutionized the way the game is played. Wade was Jordan light.

I think you are spot on about AI, Kobe and Melo, but I think KD sets himself apart. He's created an expectation that you have to have range at that position. He pushed LBJ to bring that part of his game out more, and set the tone for guys like Curry. Though that said, Bird kinda set the standard for that, so I think there's a case to put him on that list.


But yeah, guys who change the way the game is played by future generations count for a lot more in my book too.

Great post!

JasonJohnHorn
11-24-2015, 02:03 AM
My Dirk, feed the whole luncheon;
Your Dirk, is short like a munchkin.

My Dirk, played the double-feature screen
Your Dirk, went straight to DVD.

Jeffy25
11-24-2015, 03:36 AM
Top 15 no way

18th all time in PER between Bird and Robertson
7th all time in WS between Duncan and Garnett
17th all time in WS/48 between Oscar and Malone

He's going to be at least 6th highest scorer of all-time (he's 200 points behind Shaq right now), though he may not catch Wilt who is 3000 points ahead of him.

He is 35th all-time in boards, I see him easily finishing top 30, maybe top 25 in boards


47th in TS in his career



I'd say top 20 for sure, top 15 probably, possibly top 10

He has had one hell of a career.

He was arguably the best player in the NBA for a decade, and people didn't realize it, from 02-11, he posted the best WS, and 4th best PER in the game.

Duncan, Kobe, and Garnett are with him during that period of course (and LeBron too, but he joined later)

Jeffy25
11-24-2015, 03:40 AM
What does his international play have to do with anything? Do you actually think he is top 15 of all-time? I think it's crazier to see people just saying "1 ring" and auto-ranking him ahead of other all-time greats. And this is coming from a guy who is an admitted ring freak. :laugh:

Seriously check out my top 15 and tell me where you would put Dirk...

MJ
KAJ
Magic
Duncan
Kobe
Russell
LeBron
Bird
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Oscar
West
DRob

I think he's around Moses and Oscar personally (today, still got some left in the tank)

Thumper 88
11-24-2015, 10:37 AM
30,000 is impressive, but there will be guys added to that list every generation, and while it will be a mark of distinction, it isn't going to add much to a resume. I mean, Duncan likely won't get there, but nobody's every going to be like "Ah, but he didn't get 30G's!"

Melo, LBJ, and KD will all be on there. Looks like Curry too. Hell, maybe even Blake, Westy, and Harden, depending on health.

With careers lasting 15-20 years instead of 10-12, there will be a lot more guys entering that club, and it will be a lot less exclusive.

An amazing accomplishment, but not one that is going to raise his stock much if at all.

Before you start adding all these guys to the 30k list let's wait and see.

We've seen this all the time in sports. People who are on pace but don't make it due to injuries, or declining skills.

JasonJohnHorn
11-24-2015, 01:14 PM
Before you start adding all these guys to the 30k list let's wait and see.

We've seen this all the time in sports. People who are on pace but don't make it due to injuries, or declining skills.

In that case, why talk about Dirk getting there?

It's kind of undermining the spirit of the conversation.

That aside, my point stands: players join the 30,000 point club every generation. As time goes on, the club gets more members and becomes less prestigious. Coupled with that, careers are lasting longer no, making the club more accessible.

Where 30,000 points impressive 20 years ago, today you'd need 35,000 points to be comparable today.

I mean, LBJ is at 25,000 already and he's only 31. KD is half way there and hasn't even played 9 seasons and is only 27 and has a shooter's touch (like Dirk).

Sure, not all these guys will get there, but many will.


Dirk's amazing, but hitting an arbitrary number isn't going to raise his value.

FlashBolt
11-24-2015, 01:20 PM
In that case, why talk about Dirk getting there?

It's kind of undermining the spirit of the conversation.

That aside, my point stands: players join the 30,000 point club every generation. As time goes on, the club gets more members and becomes less prestigious. Coupled with that, careers are lasting longer no, making the club more accessible.

Where 30,000 points impressive 20 years ago, today you'd need 35,000 points to be comparable today.

I mean, LBJ is at 25,000 already and he's only 31. KD is half way there and hasn't even played 9 seasons and is only 27 and has a shooter's touch (like Dirk).

Sure, not all these guys will get there, but many will.


Dirk's amazing, but hitting an arbitrary number isn't going to raise his value.

I agree but I also think it should just a little. Not everyone hits the 30k point. Only 6 players out of tens of thousands have been able to do that. If it was really close between Dirk and another player, this may be the boost Dirk needs. Again, all time lists are all subjective and clearly, it won't mean much if he's being compared to someone with 4 rings, but 30k points is really impressive as it is. Not sure what you mean about it being impressive or not. 30k points is 30k points regardless of how many members get there -- which history has shown, less than one tenth of 1% gets in. Safe to say not a lot of players in our lifetime will get to that.

Redrum187
11-24-2015, 05:14 PM
Dirk? He's just Bird light without the amazing passing game or high defensive IQ.

Dirk is a 7'0 PF... Bird is a 6'9 SF. Dirk was always way more perimeter oriented than Larry Bird. Dirk was also the more efficient scorer and superior playoff performer with less help than Bird. You're right though, Bird was a good defender with amazing passing abilities. Dirk became an average-to-good defender but not like Bird was. Dirk also didn't get the assists like Bird, but for a PF, Dirk has historically been known as a great passer. Dirk's passing/defense isn't what revolutionized the PF position, it was his perimeter play while still being able to be an above average rebounder and passer.

At the end of the day though, yes, Dirk revolutionized the PF position. 99% of people would agree with that as well. I'm sure even Larry Bird would agree.

JasonJohnHorn
11-24-2015, 08:49 PM
Dirk is a 7'0 PF... Bird is a 6'9 SF. Dirk was always way more perimeter oriented than Larry Bird. Dirk was also the more efficient scorer and superior playoff performer with less help than Bird. You're right though, Bird was a good defender with amazing passing abilities. Dirk became an average-to-good defender but not like Bird was. Dirk also didn't get the assists like Bird, but for a PF, Dirk has historically been known as a great passer. Dirk's passing/defense isn't what revolutionized the PF position, it was his perimeter play while still being able to be an above average rebounder and passer.

At the end of the day though, yes, Dirk revolutionized the PF position. 99% of people would agree with that as well. I'm sure even Larry Bird would agree.

I don't think their height makes them different. Yes, Dirk is taller, but he has a similar style of play. Both have great range, both are great post post players. Both are good in the mid-range as well. Both are one of very few players to hit 400/500/900. Efficiency? I don't think you could say Dirk was better.

Dirk is more athletic (not that Bird set the bar high there), and both are average man-to-man defenders, but Bird had a high bbIQ defensively that compensated for how slow he was, but he certainly needed help when defending strong post players.

Bird is also the better rebounder and defender, but Dirk managed to stay healthy and had a much longer career.

As for help... I mean... Bird never played with a future MVP, or a guy one season before earning MVP. Dirk had Nash and Finley, two All-Star players, and Finley was one of the best SG in the league when he was with Dirk. It's not like he didn't have talent around him.

Now, as for revolutionizing the power forward position, given that he borrow so much from Bird, who played PF himself for much of his career (though he's listed as a SF by many), I wouldn't say he revolutionized the position so much as managed to take a page from Bird's book.

Guys like Love are more modelled after Bird than Dirk.

Bird is the one who took it out of the post and made the stretch-4 and brought the 3-point shot into play for post players. The 3-point shot didn't exist before, and Bird was the first high-volume scoring post player to step out behind the arc on a regular basis (though other guys did it to a lesser extent and with less versitility, like Laimbeer).

I don't see Dirk having brought anything to the position that Bird didn't bring before him. not saying Dirk isn't amazing and top 5 or 6 all time at his position, but though it is a style he perfected, it is not one he invented.

Thumper 88
11-24-2015, 10:07 PM
Top 5 or 6 at pf? Gtfo lol

YAALREADYKNO
11-24-2015, 10:52 PM
I don't think their height makes them different. Yes, Dirk is taller, but he has a similar style of play. Both have great range, both are great post post players. Both are good in the mid-range as well. Both are one of very few players to hit 400/500/900. Efficiency? I don't think you could say Dirk was better.

Dirk is more athletic (not that Bird set the bar high there), and both are average man-to-man defenders, but Bird had a high bbIQ defensively that compensated for how slow he was, but he certainly needed help when defending strong post players.

Bird is also the better rebounder and defender, but Dirk managed to stay healthy and had a much longer career.

As for help... I mean... Bird never played with a future MVP, or a guy one season before earning MVP. Dirk had Nash and Finley, two All-Star players, and Finley was one of the best SG in the league when he was with Dirk. It's not like he didn't have talent around him.

Now, as for revolutionizing the power forward position, given that he borrow so much from Bird, who played PF himself for much of his career (though he's listed as a SF by many), I wouldn't say he revolutionized the position so much as managed to take a page from Bird's book.

Guys like Love are more modelled after Bird than Dirk.

Bird is the one who took it out of the post and made the stretch-4 and brought the 3-point shot into play for post players. The 3-point shot didn't exist before, and Bird was the first high-volume scoring post player to step out behind the arc on a regular basis (though other guys did it to a lesser extent and with less versitility, like Laimbeer).

I don't see Dirk having brought anything to the position that Bird didn't bring before him. not saying Dirk isn't amazing and top 5 or 6 all time at his position, but though it is a style he perfected, it is not one he invented.

OMG just stop. Bird is clearly the better player than Dirk but How you're trying to upgrade Dirks supporting cast is just ridiculous. Nash was not MVP Nash in Dallas. Finley had about two seasons in Dallas where he was an all star and then he started to decline. Dirk did have help but don't try to act like he was playing with 2-3 HOF's in their primes like how bird did. Dirks never had a teammate like that in his prime. Dirk is the definition of a stretch 4 and changed the way PF's play. Bird was a SF FYI so don't say Dirk did not revolutionize the way 7 footers and power forwards play the game of basketball. Top 5-6 at his position? At worse he's 3rd. He wasn't the greatest rebounder or defender and didn't even play as a "traditional" power forward but in the playoffs there's absolutely no doubt outside of Duncan he was the best playoff performer with one of the greatest playoff runs in NBA history to go with it.

FlashBolt
11-25-2015, 01:22 AM
I don't think their height makes them different. Yes, Dirk is taller, but he has a similar style of play. Both have great range, both are great post post players. Both are good in the mid-range as well. Both are one of very few players to hit 400/500/900. Efficiency? I don't think you could say Dirk was better.

Dirk is more athletic (not that Bird set the bar high there), and both are average man-to-man defenders, but Bird had a high bbIQ defensively that compensated for how slow he was, but he certainly needed help when defending strong post players.

Bird is also the better rebounder and defender, but Dirk managed to stay healthy and had a much longer career.

As for help... I mean... Bird never played with a future MVP, or a guy one season before earning MVP. Dirk had Nash and Finley, two All-Star players, and Finley was one of the best SG in the league when he was with Dirk. It's not like he didn't have talent around him.

Now, as for revolutionizing the power forward position, given that he borrow so much from Bird, who played PF himself for much of his career (though he's listed as a SF by many), I wouldn't say he revolutionized the position so much as managed to take a page from Bird's book.

Guys like Love are more modelled after Bird than Dirk.

Bird is the one who took it out of the post and made the stretch-4 and brought the 3-point shot into play for post players. The 3-point shot didn't exist before, and Bird was the first high-volume scoring post player to step out behind the arc on a regular basis (though other guys did it to a lesser extent and with less versitility, like Laimbeer).

I don't see Dirk having brought anything to the position that Bird didn't bring before him. not saying Dirk isn't amazing and top 5 or 6 all time at his position, but though it is a style he perfected, it is not one he invented.

He brought a style that a 6'9 SF played under as a 7'0 PF who at that time, you didn't see many PF's with such a range. He revolutionized the PF position and it is why he is used as the standard whenever you see a tall PF who can shoot. There's no question Dirk revolutionized that position just like how Magic revolutionized the PG position in which it was a position for primarily, shorter players.

FlashBolt
11-25-2015, 01:26 AM
Dirk not being a beast rebounder has a lot to do with his role in the game. Sure, he might not rebound as much but check how the opposing player guarding him has suffered a decrease in their rebounding as well. It's not as simple as the guy not rebounding. Dirk has played more in the post in the playoffs and go figure, his TRB% is much higher than in the regular season.

Redrum187
11-25-2015, 01:41 AM
I don't think their height makes them different. Yes, Dirk is taller, but he has a similar style of play. Both have great range, both are great post post players. Both are good in the mid-range as well. Both are one of very few players to hit 400/500/900. Efficiency? I don't think you could say Dirk was better.

Dirk is more athletic (not that Bird set the bar high there), and both are average man-to-man defenders, but Bird had a high bbIQ defensively that compensated for how slow he was, but he certainly needed help when defending strong post players.

Bird is also the better rebounder and defender, but Dirk managed to stay healthy and had a much longer career.

As for help... I mean... Bird never played with a future MVP, or a guy one season before earning MVP. Dirk had Nash and Finley, two All-Star players, and Finley was one of the best SG in the league when he was with Dirk. It's not like he didn't have talent around him.

Now, as for revolutionizing the power forward position, given that he borrow so much from Bird, who played PF himself for much of his career (though he's listed as a SF by many), I wouldn't say he revolutionized the position so much as managed to take a page from Bird's book.

Guys like Love are more modelled after Bird than Dirk.

Bird is the one who took it out of the post and made the stretch-4 and brought the 3-point shot into play for post players. The 3-point shot didn't exist before, and Bird was the first high-volume scoring post player to step out behind the arc on a regular basis (though other guys did it to a lesser extent and with less versitility, like Laimbeer).

I don't see Dirk having brought anything to the position that Bird didn't bring before him. not saying Dirk isn't amazing and top 5 or 6 all time at his position, but though it is a style he perfected, it is not one he invented.

Their height has a crucial part to play in it... 7'0'ers were not really known to be terrific free throw shooters, much less, deadly from 23 feet. That is one of the reasons Bird is revolutionary for the SF position.

Also, Bird played some PF towards the end of his career as he was too slow to keep up with SFs. He will forever be known as a SF first. His skills set him apart from the rest of the SFs, just as Dirk's skills set him apart form any other PF.

I also disagree that the stretch 4's of today are modeled after Bird. Sure there will be some overlapping between Dirk and Bird, but Bird didn't play most of his time at PF. Love's game is the epitome of a broke man's Dirk. Even taller SF's who play part time PF model their game after Dirk. Just ask Kevin Durant... Just look at all the players doing the one legged faded away jumper.

As for efficiency, check their advanced stats. Dirk definitely has the edge, but I fully admit Bird was superior defensively and he was a superior play-maker too.

Having a "future MVP" is meaningless when at the time he wasn't producing like an MVP (Steve Nash). Nash was a "good" PG at the time, but he was not even considered an elite PG. As for Michael Finley, he was a good shooting guard... a 2 time All star. I have absolutely no idea how you want to compare a YOUNG Steve Nash + Michael Finley to Robert Parish, Kevin McHale, Dennis Johnson, Danny Ainge. I think you really have to admit Bird's teammates were light years ahead of Dirk's, no?

FlashBolt
11-25-2015, 01:47 AM
LOL! I just read Jason's post about Bird not having Dirk's massively amazing teammates! Bird never had a future "MVP" as if that means anything? How about some context there, please? You're judging teammates based off household names rather than their legitimate performance(s) on that team. That was a Steve Nash much closer to Ricky Rubio than the prime Nash of the Suns. BTW, you are right about one thing... Larry Bird may have never played with a future MVP but he did win a ring at his prime while not being the Finals MVP. So how does this game work again?

flea
11-25-2015, 01:59 AM
Bird started almost half his games at PF and most of his prime was at PF. He's basically a PF but gets remembered as a SF because that is the position he played offensively once McHale graduated from his 6th man status midway through Bird's career. If you judge players' positions by where they play defensively (which I don't, it's a stupid way to assign positions) then Bird was a PF for his entire career. Offensively he was a perimeter player first, even when Cedric Maxwell was the SF for 2 rings next to him, because he could shoot and the game was more post-oriented - and that is primarily why he is thought of as a SF.

In any case, Bird was definitely forebear to Dirk in the same way Magic was to Pippen and Lebron.

Redrum187
11-25-2015, 02:18 AM
Bird started almost half his games at PF and most of his prime was at PF. He's basically a PF but gets remembered as a SF because that is the position he played offensively once McHale graduated from his 6th man status midway through Bird's career. If you judge players' positions by where they play defensively (which I don't, it's a stupid way to assign positions) then Bird was a PF for his entire career. Offensively he was a perimeter player first, even when Cedric Maxwell was the SF for 2 rings next to him, because he could shoot and the game was more post-oriented - and that is primarily why he is thought of as a SF.

In any case, Bird was definitely forebear to Dirk in the same way Magic was to Pippen and Lebron.

Bird and McHale almost played their entire career together (McHale came in a year later and retired a year after). McHale averaged 31 minutes per game at PF, making at MOST, a possible 17 minutes Bird played PF assuming no other player got time at PF and also assuming Bird never rested when McHale did.

He is a SF who started at PF at the beginning and end of his career. I'm not sure why you say most of his prime was at PF. His prime was definitely at SF as that took the vast majority of his playing time.

It's also important to note that in the beginning of Bird's career (when he started at PF), he was trash from the 3 point arch (shooting 30.8% for his first 5 seasons). When McHale came in as a starter, that allowed Bird to play almost entirely at SF, where his perimeter game was noticeably better. He didn't shoot lights out from 3 when he started at PF, that came after.

FlashBolt
11-25-2015, 02:29 AM
Dirk played his entire career as a PF while Bird will forever be known as a SF. He revolutionized the PF position because a 7'0 shooting European came into the league with a completely unorthodox PF game. 3 inches is a huge difference. A 6'5 PG vs a 6'2 PG is bigger than you think.

flea
11-25-2015, 09:33 AM
Bird and McHale almost played their entire career together (McHale came in a year later and retired a year after). McHale averaged 31 minutes per game at PF, making at MOST, a possible 17 minutes Bird played PF assuming no other player got time at PF and also assuming Bird never rested when McHale did.

He is a SF who started at PF at the beginning and end of his career. I'm not sure why you say most of his prime was at PF. His prime was definitely at SF as that took the vast majority of his playing time.

It's also important to note that in the beginning of Bird's career (when he started at PF), he was trash from the 3 point arch (shooting 30.8% for his first 5 seasons). When McHale came in as a starter, that allowed Bird to play almost entirely at SF, where his perimeter game was noticeably better. He didn't shoot lights out from 3 when he started at PF, that came after.

Because it was, from age 23 to midway through age 28 he started at PF next to Maxwell (the starting SF). McHale was a bench player until 84-85, it was Bird who moved from his natural position to accommodate the team - not the other way around. He was always a perimeter player, the 3 point shot just wasn't part of the game then and it certainly wasn't for those teams.

In any case, the differences between the 2 forward positions back then is like the difference between the 2 wing ones now. Most of the good players can switch back and forth depending on team need. But Bird definitely came into the league as a PF, won 2 rings starting there, and his game operated a lot like Dirk's.

Off topic but for some reason people call James Worthy a SF too when he was pretty much a PF during the Showtime's heyday, but one who could also slide to SF when the team needed to get bigger (end of Kareem's run). Like I said it doesn't really matter but I tend to think of guys as where they started during most of their winning years.

AnthonyTyrael2
11-25-2015, 10:28 AM
Off topic but for some reason people call James Worthy a SF too when he was pretty much a PF during the Showtime's heyday, but one who could also slide to SF when the team needed to get bigger (end of Kareem's run). Like I said it doesn't really matter but I tend to think of guys as where they started during most of their winning years.

Damn positions.

Same with Duncan. Guy played a few seasons PF alongside Robinson and afterwards too but has always been a Center for the majority of his carreer. Due to the Admirals presence, he was simply forced to. Perhaps, it didn't work the other way around. Nevertheless, Duncan played at Center for almost 70% of his career and this number goes up in the post season. Still EVERYBODY calls him PF.

Same with Dirk. Guys will laugh at me but he has played and is playing Center a lot too but he's definitely a PF.

I could contribute a lot more to this debate but actually I don't care that much where you guys rank this or that player. Also I'm sure that players like Dirk don't care either. Just look at his odds before he started. What was his realistic chance being considered - one day - top 25, top 20, top 15 ALL TIME? Coming overseas, being foreign, being white, being goofy, never having attended highschool nor college like at least Olajuwon. Different culture, language, and style of play. Different basketball education, basic work.

Before him, the spearhead of foreign born players not named Wilkins and Olajuwon were Kukoc, Schrempf, the late Petrovic (who never had the chance to show more), Divac and perhaps Smits and such plus specialist like Mutombo, Bol and just a likes. Coming close to such a role and such career like theirs seemd to be the cherry on the cake scenario that every foreign born player could only dream of when entering this league. Also a lot of great foreign born talents never had success in the NBA. Praised here, failed overseas. Then Dirk, Parker and Gasol hit this league one after one and set their mark.

Among all guys on all your all time lists, Dirk might be the one who has maximized his talent and chances the most. Sure, he has his ups and downs, his flaws too. Just like all others do. That's just natural. He's also not very marketable, spectacular. White, goofy, no D so is said, jumpshooting, not dunking, not freaking out all the time on and off court...a boring dude... out of Texas, where his team is located. Ok then... He never got the respect and recognition that he should have deserved outside some basketball freaks like we actually are giving or should I say granting him, we the few. No matter that he didn't only outplay KG most of the time and could easily keep pace with Timmy while being in a division and conference playing most times a against an already legendary franchise. Not to forget the other one with, Shaq, Kobe and Phil. Bulls Reloaded so to say, 2.0, with a massive Center, all time great on his own.

Sure he had first round setbacks too, came playoff time. Especailly the GSW one did hurt his reputation in the media but who has been there coach? Alright... With any other coach, I believe, Golden State would never ever had won this series but that's just my own speculation, my own opinion. I don't have prrof for it. metrics, Analyzes whatsoever. So guys blame me for it, if you feel like.

Add to Dirk's NBA career his international wear and tear. It's more than those top 25 guys have on their side. who's talking about this? So much talking about minutes played, but always this isn't mnetioned. Why not? Doesn't count? Doesn't influence his life and NBA career, while having played multiple summers with lots of burden on his shoulders?

Dirk had and still has bad games. Sure, so does everybody. He didn't win an MVP throphy and a championship all alone, and he never lost all those games he did lose, alone. He's a team player in a team sports, living greatness and profeesionell sports attitude/mindset on court since almost two decades but 60's, 70's, 80's...90's, and today. It's hard to compare.. Guys, just enjoy the greats of basketball for as long as you can and for as long as it is still possible... and sure there's always a next generation of players coming up.

Different areas, different rules are getting mentioned all the time. The developement of the game...yeah wow, they started clicking more and more threes in the late 80's.... well, that was intentionally. Still it took some years for players to adjust. That most teams/players nowadays are chucking threes like free throws in training camp, while being the worst at it (Mavs often enough too) is another debate. This do or die mentality really sucks regarding threes. But what's about improvement and change in health related topics, the medical staff, nutrition and diets, metrics and stats not only used by fans and media but also to...damn what's the word again... to prepare your team/players as professionell as only possible. All that stuff used for modern workouts, regeneration and rehab. Video analyzes which should look today very diffeen too....So how do you compare different areas? Stats freaks against eye test computer geeks... Players against non players...I dunno.

So, just enjoy the game and its players. As a fan of the game, I wish guys like Durant, the Brow and Rose for example would and could stay healthy. No matter what position they play, no matter what team they are with, no matter if they surpass Dirks stats or not one day, I just hope they stay healthy, compete as hard as they can and give us even more material to argue about.

Thumper 88
11-25-2015, 10:37 AM
Great post Anthony

noahopz
11-25-2015, 10:48 AM
No

absolutely not.

All of the top 15 players of all time dominated multiple categories during their careers; championships excluded if you only have 0 titles or 1 title that does not define your greatness as opposed to 2 to 3 at the top of your career prime.

for instance gary payton has a title, so does antoine walker and so does kevin garnett

see the difference ??

furthermore

I would be quick to place David robinson above him , patrick ewing above him, jason kidd above him, drexler, barkley, willis reed, frazier......

catch my drift

30,000 would put him amongst an elite set of players who are incredible scorers, but for DIRK his title was set on his will on a game, but timing; he was patient remained with the same team caught lightning in a bottle with the mixture of players and he was the perfect guy for that system.

the ball flew around the perimeter and dirk basically just put himself in the position to catch and shoot all series

thats how they beat the heat.

he didnt dominate the boards, dominate on defense, and he wasnt lights out that entire series either.

some one like shaq who basically steam rolled opponents in the finals, or jordan who controlled both sides of the floor throughout the playoffs.

only those kinds of players regardless of their titles or scoring prowess belong in an all time category of being the 15th best player to have ever stepped on the hardwood.

this thread is almost laughable after reading through my points again.
Dirk might not even be in the top 25 all time players.

Thumper 88
11-25-2015, 11:14 AM
Lmao ok

juggla53
11-25-2015, 12:32 PM
I don't think their height makes them different. Yes, Dirk is taller, but he has a similar style of play. Both have great range, both are great post post players. Both are good in the mid-range as well. Both are one of very few players to hit 400/500/900. Efficiency? I don't think you could say Dirk was better.

Dirk is more athletic (not that Bird set the bar high there), and both are average man-to-man defenders, but Bird had a high bbIQ defensively that compensated for how slow he was, but he certainly needed help when defending strong post players.

Bird is also the better rebounder and defender, but Dirk managed to stay healthy and had a much longer career.

As for help... I mean... Bird never played with a future MVP, or a guy one season before earning MVP. Dirk had Nash and Finley, two All-Star players, and Finley was one of the best SG in the league when he was with Dirk. It's not like he didn't have talent around him.

Now, as for revolutionizing the power forward position, given that he borrow so much from Bird, who played PF himself for much of his career (though he's listed as a SF by many), I wouldn't say he revolutionized the position so much as managed to take a page from Bird's book.

Guys like Love are more modelled after Bird than Dirk.

Bird is the one who took it out of the post and made the stretch-4 and brought the 3-point shot into play for post players. The 3-point shot didn't exist before, and Bird was the first high-volume scoring post player to step out behind the arc on a regular basis (though other guys did it to a lesser extent and with less versitility, like Laimbeer).

I don't see Dirk having brought anything to the position that Bird didn't bring before him. not saying Dirk isn't amazing and top 5 or 6 all time at his position, but though it is a style he perfected, it is not one he invented.

Larry bird had two future hall of famers in Robert Parish and Kevin Mchale and a 5 time all star in dennis johnson... he without question had better teams around him for the majority of his career

YAALREADYKNO
11-25-2015, 02:13 PM
no

absolutely not.

All of the top 15 players of all time dominated multiple categories during their careers; championships excluded if you only have 0 titles or 1 title that does not define your greatness as opposed to 2 to 3 at the top of your career prime.

For instance gary payton has a title, so does antoine walker and so does kevin garnett

see the difference ??

Furthermore

i would be quick to place david robinson above him , patrick ewing above him, jason kidd above him, drexler, barkley, willis reed, frazier......

Catch my drift

30,000 would put him amongst an elite set of players who are incredible scorers, but for dirk his title was set on his will on a game, but timing; he was patient remained with the same team caught lightning in a bottle with the mixture of players and he was the perfect guy for that system.

The ball flew around the perimeter and dirk basically just put himself in the position to catch and shoot all series

thats how they beat the heat.

He didnt dominate the boards, dominate on defense, and he wasnt lights out that entire series either.

Some one like shaq who basically steam rolled opponents in the finals, or jordan who controlled both sides of the floor throughout the playoffs.

Only those kinds of players regardless of their titles or scoring prowess belong in an all time category of being the 15th best player to have ever stepped on the hardwood.

This thread is almost laughable after reading through my points again.
Dirk might not even be in the top 25 all time players.

LMAO Ewing over Dirk? Kidd over Dirk? Just stop. Guess in your mind Oscar Robertson is a top 3 player of all time then right because he stuffed the stat sheet?

Redrum187
11-25-2015, 03:20 PM
No

absolutely not.

All of the top 15 players of all time dominated multiple categories during their careers; championships excluded if you only have 0 titles or 1 title that does not define your greatness as opposed to 2 to 3 at the top of your career prime.

for instance gary payton has a title, so does antoine walker and so does kevin garnett

see the difference ??

furthermore

I would be quick to place David robinson above him , patrick ewing above him, jason kidd above him, drexler, barkley, willis reed, frazier......

catch my drift

30,000 would put him amongst an elite set of players who are incredible scorers, but for DIRK his title was set on his will on a game, but timing; he was patient remained with the same team caught lightning in a bottle with the mixture of players and he was the perfect guy for that system.

the ball flew around the perimeter and dirk basically just put himself in the position to catch and shoot all series

thats how they beat the heat.

he didnt dominate the boards, dominate on defense, and he wasnt lights out that entire series either.

some one like shaq who basically steam rolled opponents in the finals, or jordan who controlled both sides of the floor throughout the playoffs.

only those kinds of players regardless of their titles or scoring prowess belong in an all time category of being the 15th best player to have ever stepped on the hardwood.

this thread is almost laughable after reading through my points again.
Dirk might not even be in the top 25 all time players.

Sparknotes

1.) Winning only 1 championship and FMVP is the equivalent of winning 0.
2.) Winning 2 or more championships makes you astronomically better than any player who has won 1 or 0.
3.) GP and Garnett winning their championship NOT as the man on the team is equivalent to Dirk winning his as the man (because it's only 1 championship).
4.) Dirk was lucky in the 11' postseason. He didn't shoot lights out even though regular stats, advanced stats, and the eye test confirmed Dirk's title run as a top 10 playoff performance of all time.
5.) Dirk doesn't rebound even though he is a postseason career average of 10+ rpg.
6.) Only Shaq and Jordan belong in the top 15 players of all time (not in the top 5 or even 10).
7.) Kidd, Drexler, Reed, and Frazier are superior players to Dirk.

Thumper 88
11-25-2015, 04:12 PM
Sparknotes

1.) Winning only 1 championship and FMVP is the equivalent of winning 0.
2.) Winning 2 or more championships makes you astronomically better than any player who has won 1 or 0.
3.) GP and Garnett winning their championship NOT as the man on the team is equivalent to Dirk winning his as the man (because it's only 1 championship).
4.) Dirk was lucky in the 11' postseason. He didn't shoot lights out even though regular stats, advanced stats, and the eye test confirmed Dirk's title run as a top 10 playoff performance of all time.
5.) Dirk doesn't rebound even though he is a postseason career average of 10+ rpg.
6.) Only Shaq and Jordan belong in the top 15 players of all time (not in the top 5 or even 10).
7.) Kidd, Drexler, Reed, and Frazier are superior players to Dirk.
Mic DROP

nickdymez
11-25-2015, 04:29 PM
Karl and Barkley never won a ring despite their production. KG and Dirk is a tossup imo.

Karl and Barkley weren't beating Jordan, neither would Dirk.

Vinylman
11-25-2015, 05:29 PM
I agree but I also think it should just a little. Not everyone hits the 30k point. Only 6 players out of tens of thousands have been able to do that. If it was really close between Dirk and another player, this may be the boost Dirk needs. Again, all time lists are all subjective and clearly, it won't mean much if he's being compared to someone with 4 rings, but 30k points is really impressive as it is. Not sure what you mean about it being impressive or not. 30k points is 30k points regardless of how many members get there -- which history has shown, less than one tenth of 1% gets in. Safe to say not a lot of players in our lifetime will get to that.

there hasn't even been 5k players in the history of the NBA

Chronz
11-25-2015, 05:51 PM
Sparknotes

1.) Winning only 1 championship and FMVP is the equivalent of winning 0.
2.) Winning 2 or more championships makes you astronomically better than any player who has won 1 or 0.
3.) GP and Garnett winning their championship NOT as the man on the team is equivalent to Dirk winning his as the man (because it's only 1 championship).
4.) Dirk was lucky in the 11' postseason. He didn't shoot lights out even though regular stats, advanced stats, and the eye test confirmed Dirk's title run as a top 10 playoff performance of all time.
5.) Dirk doesn't rebound even though he is a postseason career average of 10+ rpg.
6.) Only Shaq and Jordan belong in the top 15 players of all time (not in the top 5 or even 10).
7.) Kidd, Drexler, Reed, and Frazier are superior players to Dirk.

Its MURDAH

Gander13SM
11-25-2015, 06:09 PM
Sparknotes

1.) Winning only 1 championship and FMVP is the equivalent of winning 0.
2.) Winning 2 or more championships makes you astronomically better than any player who has won 1 or 0.
3.) GP and Garnett winning their championship NOT as the man on the team is equivalent to Dirk winning his as the man (because it's only 1 championship).
4.) Dirk was lucky in the 11' postseason. He didn't shoot lights out even though regular stats, advanced stats, and the eye test confirmed Dirk's title run as a top 10 playoff performance of all time.
5.) Dirk doesn't rebound even though he is a postseason career average of 10+ rpg.
6.) Only Shaq and Jordan belong in the top 15 players of all time (not in the top 5 or even 10).
7.) Kidd, Drexler, Reed, and Frazier are superior players to Dirk.


[SPOILER TAG]http://www.quickmeme.com/img/fb/fb1765ecfa6d54eb47ff0c4a017074796936ea2b560111d69f 31ac3470150ae2.jpg[/SPOILER TAG]

I don't get why people are still underrating Dirk after all these years.

Thumper 88
11-25-2015, 10:15 PM
[SPOILER TAG]http://www.quickmeme.com/img/fb/fb1765ecfa6d54eb47ff0c4a017074796936ea2b560111d69f 31ac3470150ae2.jpg[/SPOILER TAG]

I don't get why people are still underrating Dirk after all these years.

Probably because he's quite and doesn't like to be in the spot light.

AnthonyTyrael2
11-26-2015, 01:25 AM
Ever noticed that Dirk had the worst rookie season by far among all those all time greats?

Guys like him, TD, KG also had to face two lockout seasons, which, talking about longeveity and milestones, took them away quiet some games. More than half a season.

Just do the math and add their career averages onto their totals but at least most of their stats got recorded unlike in the early days of the game. For example, that's why Olajuwon is the all time blocking shots leader as well as it's the reason for Dirk being that up high in a category like the totals of defensive boards.

C_Mund
11-26-2015, 03:07 AM
Who would you bump from

Mj
Kaj
Magic
Duncan
Kobe
Russell
Wilt
Lebron
Bird
Shaq
Hakeem
Moses
Oscar
West
Drob

I'd put him in over Drob because of the famous melt-down in the finals vs. Hakeem. Although Dirk had a similar one against the Heat (very controversial, but Miami certainly earned the Chip), Dirk putting the Mavs on his back and forcing his way through better teams in the playoffs puts him over the hump

noahopz
11-26-2015, 09:32 AM
LMAO Ewing over Dirk? Kidd over Dirk? Just stop. Guess in your mind Oscar Robertson is a top 3 player of all time then right because he stuffed the stat sheet?


How not ?

how am I not allowed to make the argument that Ewing is better than Dirk

Ewing dominated both sides of the ball in an era that produced some of the best centers that have ever played the game.

And you pick kidd as the one outlier amidst the other hall of famers that I suggested I would also put in the top 15 before Dirk

You are as I have seen from afar before joining one of those foolish posters who only pick ONE component of a persons argument to state that they are wrong, instead of reading the entire post and picking it apart

if you want to tell me I'm wrong with kidd fine

but don't tell me everything else I said was wrong

because dirk is not a top 15 all time player

all time scorer yes

player noon

noahopz
11-26-2015, 09:37 AM
Sparknotes

1.) Winning only 1 championship and FMVP is the equivalent of winning 0.
2.) Winning 2 or more championships makes you astronomically better than any player who has won 1 or 0.
3.) GP and Garnett winning their championship NOT as the man on the team is equivalent to Dirk winning his as the man (because it's only 1 championship).
4.) Dirk was lucky in the 11' postseason. He didn't shoot lights out even though regular stats, advanced stats, and the eye test confirmed Dirk's title run as a top 10 playoff performance of all time.
5.) Dirk doesn't rebound even though he is a postseason career average of 10+ rpg.
6.) Only Shaq and Jordan belong in the top 15 players of all time (not in the top 5 or even 10).
7.) Kidd, Drexler, Reed, and Frazier are superior players to Dirk.

Its timing and perspective. You are acting like I am saying Dirk sucks and he's terrible; my point was there are so many other players that we leave off that top 15 list and to shove dirk into that category I Feel is a bit premature to just SAY he's top 15 because he scored 30,000 points in his career

you are all fading away from the theme of the OP and the point he was making about does 30 k make you a top 15 player

My reaction was no 30 k does not make you a top 15 player because there are so many variables to consider before you say some one is the top 15th player to every play the game

how you can rip apart my post is ridiculous and everything you stated outside of dirks stats was pure opinion

what 1 title to 0 titles mean etc, it was just as opinionated as my opinions

I Feel that dirk winning his title was huge, but how does it compare to david robinson winning his, or what karl malone did throughout his career to not even win one ??

dirk is an amazing talent, one of a kind

I just feel he is not to 15 based solely on 30 k career points

stick to the topic people, stop stretching the argument to make it fit your points.

Thumper 88
11-26-2015, 07:54 PM
Didn't d Rob have Duncan?

You can argue Dirk not in the top15 but he's better then Drob and definitely top 20

kdspurman
11-26-2015, 08:29 PM
Didn't d Rob have Duncan?

You can argue Dirk not in the top15 but he's better then Drob and definitely top 20

Drob got Duncan later in his career though, on the tailend. Robinson was a better all around player and one of the best defensive bigs to play the game IMO. He did have some shortcomings in the playoffs but overall he was quite dominant on both ends of the floor. It's fair to compare, but I think Robinsons defense would put him ahead of Dirk

AnthonyTyrael2
11-27-2015, 03:38 AM
Drob got Duncan later in his career though, on the tailend. Robinson was a better all around player and one of the best defensive bigs to play the game IMO. He did have some shortcomings in the playoffs but overall he was quite dominant on both ends of the floor. It's fair to compare, but I think Robinsons defense would put him ahead of Dirk

He's been a heck of player but what did he get done by himself? He put up great stats but same could be said about guys like Bosh in Toronto, KG in Minny, Love in Minny or for example Davis in NO and now Porzingis in NY too for all you freaks. He had a quadruple double (didn't he, or was it Hakeem?), could also score like crazy if needed. The admiral was great. He was the better defender, might also have collected more NBA accolades, like All NBA teams. He also got that one all star game selection over Dirk which was laughable but not his fault. However it shows how this business and all those votings work.

And well, he played back in the time when the East was superior to the West. He was avoiding most of the year the Celtics, Pistons, Knicks and Bulls. Those leading guys on them didn't only have great stats, they also achieved things that DRob couldn't. He carried his team to...right, nowhere. What about his playoff success? Did he go the finals once during that period? No, but the Rockets and even the Suns and Jazz did go. Later on a few things went quiet lucky for the Spurs under their circumstances, so they got great staff on and off the court and could establish their dynasty. Since those days, they've done the most terrific job in this league as a franchise. Never seen anybody in sports doing so much right about such a long period of time so that Timmy could win rings in three different decades.

However, DRob who entered the league pretty old, is surely above him in many ways but there's more than just stats (and those things Dirk is fulfilling) that will put you in the pantheon or in their case, even a level below where both Dirk and Robinson himself should be sitting.

jason6692
11-27-2015, 04:28 AM
Name the best player dirk played with
Ill wait this should spark a discussion

jason6692
11-27-2015, 04:30 AM
Ya gonna credit the "system" with all those 50 plus win seasons in a row only behind sa deapite a few coaching changes
And 06 was rigged doesnt change 10 yrs later

YAALREADYKNO
11-27-2015, 11:46 AM
How not ?

how am I not allowed to make the argument that Ewing is better than Dirk

Ewing dominated both sides of the ball in an era that produced some of the best centers that have ever played the game.

And you pick kidd as the one outlier amidst the other hall of famers that I suggested I would also put in the top 15 before Dirk

You are as I have seen from afar before joining one of those foolish posters who only pick ONE component of a persons argument to state that they are wrong, instead of reading the entire post and picking it apart

if you want to tell me I'm wrong with kidd fine

but don't tell me everything else I said was wrong

because dirk is not a top 15 all time player

all time scorer yes

player noon

It's funny how you say Dirk didn't "dominate" anything yet he still led his teams to more success than all the guys you named who you said that "dominated". Robinson is a perfect example. Monster regular season numbers but when the playoffs came around what happened? And don't use his talent around him as an excuse either because Dirk has had similar talent and has at least led his team to 2 NBA finals while winning 1. Robinson never got to an NBA finals till Duncan came along. As for Ewing, Dirk has more impact on the game. The things he does for guys on offense is almost unmatched. He spaces the floor so much that it gives players more room to operate. Not saying that Ewing didn't impact the game but dirks offense to me trumps ewings defense. The man led eric damper to an NBA finals in 06. Nuff said

kdspurman
11-27-2015, 12:18 PM
It's funny how you say Dirk didn't "dominate" anything yet he still led his teams to more success than all the guys you named who you said that "dominated". Robinson is a perfect example. Monster regular season numbers but when the playoffs came around what happened? And don't use his talent around him as an excuse either because Dirk has had similar talent and has at least led his team to 2 NBA finals while winning 1. Robinson never got to an NBA finals till Duncan came along. As for Ewing, Dirk has more impact on the game. The things he does for guys on offense is almost unmatched. He spaces the floor so much that it gives players more room to operate. Not saying that Ewing didn't impact the game but dirks offense to me trumps ewings defense. The man led eric damper to an NBA finals in 06. Nuff said

He had the perfect complement at least in his 2nd run though. Chandler was there and really helped to hide/cover for him defensively. I think he and Robinson had similar talent levels, but Dirk while great in that run had perfect pieces around him that complimented his style of play quite well.

That's not taking away from him, believe me. but you can't just bring up that Dirk did more with similar talent levels and not acknowledge how important fit is as well

YAALREADYKNO
11-27-2015, 12:55 PM
He had the perfect complement at least in his 2nd run though. Chandler was there and really helped to hide/cover for him defensively. I think he and Robinson had similar talent levels, but Dirk while great in that run had perfect pieces around him that complimented his style of play quite well.

That's not taking away from him, believe me. but you can't just bring up that Dirk did more with similar talent levels and not acknowledge how important fit is as well

And what did Tyson chandler do with melo? Or even cp3 before? Or when Dirk took Eric dampier and desagana diop to the finals in 06?

kdspurman
11-27-2015, 01:11 PM
And what did Tyson chandler do with melo? Or even cp3 before? Or when Dirk took Eric dampier and desagana diop to the finals in 06?

Again, I'm talking about fit. What did Boris Diaw do in Charlottle What happened when he got to SA? I'm not saying Chandler carried them, I'm saying don't dismiss the personnel Dirk had around him. He had the right pieces around him to help make them successful. Chandler was a big reason they won as well, despite the lack of success he had previously

jason6692
11-27-2015, 01:16 PM
In conclusion top 20 EASY.
First ballot HoF

YAALREADYKNO
11-27-2015, 02:04 PM
Again, I'm talking about fit. What did Boris Diaw do in Charlottle What happened when he got to SA? I'm not saying Chandler carried them, I'm saying don't dismiss the personnel Dirk had around him. He had the right pieces around him to help make them successful. Chandler was a big reason they won as well, despite the lack of success he had previously

Sure chandler had a big part in the Mavs run in 11 but Robinson had Elliot who was a solid player. You don't become a 2x all star in the NBA if you can't play. Dirk did more with similar casts and that to me puts him over Robinson.

Redrum187
11-27-2015, 06:15 PM
Again, I'm talking about fit. What did Boris Diaw do in Charlottle What happened when he got to SA? I'm not saying Chandler carried them, I'm saying don't dismiss the personnel Dirk had around him. He had the right pieces around him to help make them successful. Chandler was a big reason they won as well, despite the lack of success he had previously

The Mavericks had less talent but a good fit in 11' when they won. Tyson Chandler was probably the 2nd important player on the Maverick's title run.

Robinson had a great fit with elite players when he won. Duncan was their most important player in their title runs.

I agree, they are relatively in the same value/talent field, but no one can argue that DRob did what Dirk has done and with far less help. For this reason, Dirk is clearly the superior player.

WVNowitzki
11-27-2015, 07:10 PM
choke in 2006

Fixed finals.

FTFY