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View Full Version : Who was actually better in their primes? Kevin Garnett or Lebron James



AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 11:18 AM
The evidence is in large favor of Kevin Garnett.

goingfor28
11-09-2015, 11:35 AM
LeBron

RateSports
11-09-2015, 11:43 AM
Just close this thread. This is so dumb.

basch152
11-09-2015, 11:49 AM
Smush parker is better than both

YAALREADYKNO
11-09-2015, 11:56 AM
Wtf??? Is this a serious question?

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 12:00 PM
Just close this thread. This is so dumb.

No, lets debate it. It's never been discussed. Everyone just skipped over it when Lebron's high school game was on ESPN and Garnett's weren't. BUT is was a different time and era. ESPN was looking for something new to do. So they started televising High School Games.

Garnett is a legit 6'11 240 in his prime. Had a legit in game 30 inch vertical and had hangtime.
was once an DPOY. Led the lowly Wolves franchise to many 50 win seasons and many straight Playoff appearances in the Mighty Western Conference.

Then way after his prime really, went to Boston to join up with two players players that were pretty much winding down their careers aswell then beat lebron 2-3 times in the same conference to advance past him in the East. This was past his prime KG at age 32-35 mind you.

Even when KG was like 36 he took lebron, wade and bosh all of which were in their primes and Wade was still only like 31 years old, he took them to GAME 7. A prime KG beats them.

Jeffy25
11-09-2015, 12:07 PM
What was Garnett's prime?

97-11 is his healthy phase...he averaged 24.1 PER, .551 TS%, 169.9 WS at .201 WS/48 in just over 40,000 minutes
20.2 points per game, 11.1 rebounds per game, 4.3 assists per game, 1.3 steals, 1.5 blocks

Garnett did have an elite two years (03-05) where he put up 28.8 PER...but this was only two years

You could say LeBron entered his prime in his second year in the league (04-05) but he did get better in 05-06.

But we'll say since the start of his second year.
Lebron has thrown up 28.5 PER, .588 TS%, 175 WS at .255 WS/48 in just under 33,000 minutes
25.6 points per game, 6.7 rebounds per game, 6.4 assists per game, 1.6 steals, 0.7 blocks

There is nothing to discuss, LeBron pounces on Garnett's prime. Garnett's two very best years don't even compare to what LeBron has been doing basically his whole career.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 12:13 PM
I love debating basketball because many have a misconception that who ever averages more ppg is automatically better, but this just isn't always the case.

For those who like numbers since I already gave their compeition level and head to head level of which Garnett comes out on top. Here are the numbers for his 8 year prime from age 23-30

PPG 22.5
FG% 49.3%
FT% 79.2%
REBS 12.7
ASTS 5.0
STLS 1.4
BLKS 1.6
TO's 2.8

Averaged 50 wins a season in the West with his second best player being Rasho Nestrovic most seasons
and was a leading candidate each season for DPOY.

He was a legit back to the basket guy that you could run your offense though and he was soo good at passing from the PF position that he could draw the defense to him and pass out of the double teams for easy layups and shots. Then would still get to the offensive boards if one of his team mates missed. Truly amazing.

The Rebounding numbers really pop out too. 12.7 for 8 years!! That's amazing to go with 23 points per game essentially.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 12:21 PM
What was Garnett's prime?

97-11 is his healthy phase...he averaged 24.1 PER, .551 TS%, 169.9 WS at .201 WS/48 in just over 40,000 minutes
20.2 points per game, 11.1 rebounds per game, 4.3 assists per game, 1.3 steals, 1.5 blocks

Garnett did have an elite two years (03-05) where he put up 28.8 PER...but this was only two years

You could say LeBron entered his prime in his second year in the league (04-05) but he did get better in 05-06.

But we'll say since the start of his second year.
Lebron has thrown up 28.5 PER, .588 TS%, 175 WS at .255 WS/48 in just under 33,000 minutes
25.6 points per game, 6.7 rebounds per game, 6.4 assists per game, 1.6 steals, 0.7 blocks

There is nothing to discuss, LeBron pounces on Garnett's prime. Garnett's two very best years don't even compare to what LeBron has been doing basically his whole career.

I don't think we can just pretty much go by PER or other formula driven stats that have a lot to do with how many points your team mates are getting and other things like that. Also they really don't factor in total defense and other things aswell. Also they don't factor in competition level either.

Remember Flip Saunders was a very "team oriented" guy and was big on all 12 players playing and all 12 players getting about on average 5-6 shots. I've looked at the PER formula long enough to see that I don't really especially like it and to know that it inflates players who keep their team mates 'down'. Same thing with WS. It can be another tool in the shed, but it's down the list and by no means a "end all be all" like some have tried to make it in the past. Although not as much as they used to.

Jeffy25
11-09-2015, 12:22 PM
I don't think we can just pretty much go by PER or other formula driven stats that have a lot to do with how many points your team mates are getting and other things like that. Also they really don't factor in total defense and other things aswell. Also they don't factor in competition level either.

Okay, I posted way more than just PER, and their primes overlap more than enough, and both were in the East for a lot of that.

Bron was better, and is still going.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 12:30 PM
Okay, I posted way more than just PER, and their primes overlap more than enough, and both were in the East for a lot of that.

Bron was better, and is still going.

Garnett's prime wasn't until 23 years old really when he started getting big and filling out. This was the West where you had to be 6'11 240 pretty much if I may be facisus.

What about the HEAD TO HEAD of which Garnett beat lebron in his absolute atheletic prime and probably shooting prime aswell. Garnett was pretty much past his prime even at that time. I know Garnett had the better team, but still. They held Lebron to like 12 points in one of those games.

I think it's open for discusion.

also just on pure numbers and stats. Garnett is more impressive because of the 13 boards and nearly 2 blocks per game and the more unique position he played. A 6'11 PF that could play Center and guard point gaurds. Also a top 5 Defender pretty much every season.

If you want to add up the pure stats and factor in the much greater overall defense Garnett could play we can.

valade16
11-09-2015, 12:35 PM
Another thing to consider is that Bron was criticized earlier in his career for not wanting to take the final shot or be 'that guy'. Well Garnett had that same problem and oftentimes folded offensively when he was needed most.

The thing is, Garnett and Bron are both so good because they can do so many things. Garnett was the better rebounder, Bron the better passer. The difference to me is that while they were near equals in diversity of skills, Garnett had a slightly better defensive impact (while Garnett won DPOY, Bron finished 2nd for the award before), but Bron was far better at scoring.

Garnett's best PPG was 24.0. LeBron's was 31.4. Bron has averaged more PPG than Garnett's best every year besides his rookie season and did so on better efficiency.

So I'll take the guy who is nearly as impactful on D, who is just as good an all around player, but who averages 8 PPG more on better efficiency. And that is Bron...

valade16
11-09-2015, 12:38 PM
Also, while Garnett's teams in Minny were bad, Bron's supporting cast in Cleveland was pretty bad as well and he led them to far greater success than KG did Minny (albeit in the East).

Once they both went to their "superteams" Bron again got 2 rings to KG's 1. And while Bron did lose to KG's Celtics while in Cleveland, when he went to Miami he beat the Celtics in the playoffs twice in a row.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 12:48 PM
Another thing to consider is that Bron was criticized earlier in his career for not wanting to take the final shot or be 'that guy'. Well Garnett had that same problem and oftentimes folded offensively when he was needed most.

The thing is, Garnett and Bron are both so good because they can do so many things. Garnett was the better rebounder, Bron the better passer. The difference to me is that while they were near equals in diversity of skills, Garnett had a slightly better defensive impact (while Garnett won DPOY, Bron finished 2nd for the award before), but Bron was far better at scoring.

Garnett's best PPG was 24.0. LeBron's was 31.4. Bron has averaged more PPG than Garnett's best every year besides his rookie season and did so on better efficiency.

So I'll take the guy who is nearly as impactful on D, who is just as good an all around player, but who averages 8 PPG more on better efficiency. And that is Bron...

How come when Garnett in his last prime season really at age 31 went to the East was immediately won an NBA title and dominated the East and then beat the Lakers? Granted he had Pierce and Allen who weren't exactly World Beaters but they were just really good players. While James up and joined the Heat with Wade and Bosh in their primes and they struggled that season to put it together at just 58 wins then got beat down by the Dallas Mavericks.... Makes you wonder.

Maybe lebron is just a little bit over hyped.

As for the ppg stats which I see you're making the End All be All. PPG stats can be faked. Just take more shots. Iverson did it for 9 years pretty much. Bryant has done it the last 8 years in an all out journey and hell bent on passing Jordan in overall scoring points accumlated. It took him 20 years I might add.

Also sometimes one guy taking all the shots like lebron likes to especially in the playoffs because he thinks he's Jordan and he knows all the cameras are on. He's an attention whore. Anyways sometimes that can play into the other teams hands, like it did the Golden State Warriors. By game 4 they knew exactly where each shot was coming from, by whom, when it would be taken and how it would be missed. They then started having guys like Iggy and others position out and get ready for a quick pass ahead fast break. They blew each game open and led the entire way. Then lebron would play extra hard for numbers in the final 2 minutes after the game is pretty much over to be like "look at me everyone, I'm not the reason we lost, my team just isn't good enough"

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 12:55 PM
Also, while Garnett's teams in Minny were bad, Bron's supporting cast in Cleveland was pretty bad as well and he led them to far greater success than KG did Minny (albeit in the East).

Once they both went to their "superteams" Bron again got 2 rings to KG's 1. And while Bron did lose to KG's Celtics while in Cleveland, when he went to Miami he beat the Celtics in the playoffs twice in a row.

Although everyone including Ray Allen himself knows that the 13 Finals was luck. They needed a major Popovich mistake and a lucky three by Ray Allen.

Really James has 1 Ring legitimately he knows darn well he didn't deserve the 13 one and the Spurs proved it in convincing fashion in the 14 Finals. They set a record for the best beating ever. Miami didn't even want to play on the same team with each other after that beating. Pretty much ruining that franchise forever.


Also when Miami did beat the Celtics it wasn't even convincingly and Allen, Pierce, and Garnett were already past their primes. Also Rondo was injured.

Head to Head both in their primes Garnett owned Lebron.

Also I would say that Lebron had more overall in Cleveland than Garnett had in Minn.

Also it's the West vs the East and not only that but Garnett played in the Jordan era some. He played in that better era and James never even played in that era. James was going against an old Piston team that was way past their primes and an old Nets team with an injured Kidd and things like that.

The East was a joke from like 00-well really now....

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 12:57 PM
If both of them could only take like 3-4 shots in a game, who would have a better chance of dominating?

I rest my case. This is really what separates the greats from the pretenders.

Hawkeye15
11-09-2015, 01:01 PM
coming from a Wolves fan here, KG was my favorite player for years

It's LeBron by a mile

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 01:05 PM
coming from a Wolves fan here, KG was my favorite player for years

It's LeBron by a mile

So you think Lebron with Nestrovic as his second best player every year beats down Shaq's Lakers, Webber's Kings, Nash's Suns, Duncans Spurs and Dirk's Mavs?

Seems a little far fetched.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 01:09 PM
I realize ppg stats are important but sometimes it's clear that lebron is just chucking. Like in the 15 Finals in which he did that for attention so everyone would be like "look at that poor warrior out there" "doesn't have a sole to throw the ball too" "poor guy"

He aint the winner some of you think he is. He's been very fortunate to play in such a terrible Conference and somewhat bad league now days.

Hawkeye15
11-09-2015, 01:26 PM
So you think Lebron with Nestrovic as his second best player every year beats down Shaq's Lakers, Webber's Kings, Nash's Suns, Duncans Spurs and Dirk's Mavs?

Seems a little far fetched.

I don't know. I do know he doesn't get killed in the 1st round year after year, while putting up far inferior stats to his regular season, and being outplayed by his counterpart badly 3 times during his prime.

I love KG, and I think he is a top 20 player ever. But he always regressed in the playoffs, and if you think LeBron settles for "the best basketball play" in the end of game scenarios, you missed the entire KG era....

Dude was scared to death of last second shot attempts.

Hawkeye15
11-09-2015, 01:27 PM
and Rasho was not his 2nd best player, ever.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 01:31 PM
I don't know. I do know he doesn't get killed in the 1st round year after year, while putting up far inferior stats to his regular season, and being outplayed by his counterpart badly 3 times during his prime.

I love KG, and I think he is a top 20 player ever. But he always regressed in the playoffs, and if you think LeBron settles for "the best basketball play" in the end of game scenarios, you missed the entire KG era....

Dude was scared to death of last second shot attempts.

So you think Lebron is going to upset a Western Conference Power House in the First round back then? Remember Lebron would most likely be a 6 or 7 seed, playing against a 2 or 3 seed. That being most likely the Spurs or the Mavs.
And I don't see Ray Allen anywhere on that Minnesota roster to bail him out

valade16
11-09-2015, 01:58 PM
and Rasho was not his 2nd best player, ever.

Was gonna say, dude couldn't be very knowledgeable about KG's Minny years to say that (unless he was sensationalizing to make his point).

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 02:14 PM
He had Brandon one year, Terry Porter one year, Gugliotta one year, Sprewell like one year, cassell for a year or so. Wally who he made look like an All Star until he joined lebron and lebron turned him into a 12th man.

Sorry but Rasho wasn't as bad as people think. He was a legit 7'1 and about 250. He played there in Minny for like 5 years and was consistent with like 9 points and 8 rebounds. Also had a lot of Playoff experience.

Just saying... and I'd rather have a 37 year old Shaq... Which Lebron also had.

kingsdelez24
11-09-2015, 02:27 PM
He had Brandon one year, Terry Porter one year, Gugliotta one year, Sprewell like one year, cassell for a year or so. Wally who he made look like an All Star until he joined lebron and lebron turned him into a 12th man.

Sorry but Rasho wasn't as bad as people think. He was a legit 7'1 and about 250. He played there in Minny for like 5 years and was consistent with like 9 points and 8 rebounds. Also had a lot of Playoff experience.

Just saying... and I'd rather have a 37 year old Shaq... Which Lebron also had.

To be fair on Wally, he was injured to **** ever since he left the T-wolves

YAALREADYKNO
11-09-2015, 02:44 PM
He had Brandon one year, Terry Porter one year, Gugliotta one year, Sprewell like one year, cassell for a year or so. Wally who he made look like an All Star until he joined lebron and lebron turned him into a 12th man.

Sorry but Rasho wasn't as bad as people think. He was a legit 7'1 and about 250. He played there in Minny for like 5 years and was consistent with like 9 points and 8 rebounds. Also had a lot of Playoff experience.

Just saying... and I'd rather have a 37 year old Shaq... Which Lebron also had.

In 02 he had both Wally and billups both averaging 20 in the playoffs against the mavs and a pre prime Dirk was the best player in that series and it wasn't even close

Hawkeye15
11-09-2015, 03:53 PM
So you think Lebron is going to upset a Western Conference Power House in the First round back then? Remember Lebron would most likely be a 6 or 7 seed, playing against a 2 or 3 seed. That being most likely the Spurs or the Mavs.
And I don't see Ray Allen anywhere on that Minnesota roster to bail him out

I think LeBron gives them 5-8 more wins a year, so they wouldn't have been underdogs, and yes, the Wolves move in deeper into the playoffs every single year.

I don't see anyone on LeBron's team bailing him out, I see LeBron James leading teams that have no business calling themselves contenders to 60 win seasons, and teams to finals.

You didn't follow the Wolves at all obviously.

Hawkeye15
11-09-2015, 03:54 PM
He had Brandon one year, Terry Porter one year, Gugliotta one year, Sprewell like one year, cassell for a year or so. Wally who he made look like an All Star until he joined lebron and lebron turned him into a 12th man.

Sorry but Rasho wasn't as bad as people think. He was a legit 7'1 and about 250. He played there in Minny for like 5 years and was consistent with like 9 points and 8 rebounds. Also had a lot of Playoff experience.

Just saying... and I'd rather have a 37 year old Shaq... Which Lebron also had.

yep, you didn't watch any of the Wolves, nor are you familiar with their rosters. Perhaps if KG hadn't turned into a ***** come playoff time many years, the Wolves would have won a few more series.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 04:10 PM
In 02 he had both Wally and billups both averaging 20 in the playoffs against the mavs and a pre prime Dirk was the best player in that series and it wasn't even close

Dirk was actually already in his prime dude. He was ALL NBA SECOND TEAM that season so you must not have good knowledge on Dirk's career. Dirk also had Future MVP Nash in his prime and Prime Finley.

Also Garnett did average 24 and 18 in that series with about 2 steals and 2 bocks. 24 and 18. I'd say they didn't really lose because of Garnett. So is Lebron going to average 30 and 20 vs that stacked Mavs team? Give me a break.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 04:18 PM
yep, you didn't watch any of the Wolves, nor are you familiar with their rosters. Perhaps if KG hadn't turned into a ***** come playoff time many years, the Wolves would have won a few more series.

I'd say you're getting testy. I do know about the Wolves and you're sort of fibbing and straight lying about Garnett in the playoffs. You don't what me to find his best playoff seasons in his prime do you.

also he carried two career losers to the Championships and Finals two times. Let's not pretend that Pierce and allen were world beaters.

22/13/5/1.5/1.5 for his best 7 Playoffs in a row.

That's pretty good for the West where all team have multiple HOFers.

KG was healthy for one season in the East and that one season he happened to Win the Title.

he was 1 for 1.

Lebron is 2 for 12.


I'll take the 1 for 1 odds.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 04:27 PM
When they both faced each other in their primes in a playoff series Lebron shot 33% in his final three games of that series in a losing effort while adding 6.3 turnovers per game.

Garnett's Defense was too much for lebran. lebran cracked under the pressure.

YAALREADYKNO
11-09-2015, 04:43 PM
Dirk was actually already in his prime dude. He was ALL NBA SECOND TEAM that season so you must not have good knowledge on Dirk's career. Dirk also had Future MVP Nash in his prime and Prime Finley.

Also Garnett did average 24 and 18 in that series with about 2 steals and 2 bocks. 24 and 18. I'd say they didn't really lose because of Garnett. So is Lebron going to average 30 and 20 vs that stacked Mavs team? Give me a break.

I'm a mavs fan so I've been following Dirk and no he was not in his prime yet because he was still sharing touches with Finley and Nash and that was only his 2nd-3rd playoff series. You're just looking at the numbers now. Yes kg averaged 24 & 19 but in the 4th he was no where to be found. Why do you think kg was called out by guys like Barkley and magic saying how he wasn't the type of guy to give you 40 in a tough playoff game. Even his own coach at the time Kevin mchale called him out saying he needed kg to get more aggressive on offense especially since the mavs that year were a horrible defensive team.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 05:36 PM
I'm a mavs fan so I've been following Dirk and no he was not in his prime yet because he was still sharing touches with Finley and Nash and that was only his 2nd-3rd playoff series. You're just looking at the numbers now. Yes kg averaged 24 & 19 but in the 4th he was no where to be found. Why do you think kg was called out by guys like Barkley and magic saying how he wasn't the type of guy to give you 40 in a tough playoff game. Even his own coach at the time Kevin mchale called him out saying he needed kg to get more aggressive on offense especially since the mavs that year were a horrible defensive team.

So I guess Magic Johnson never had a prime then since he was sharing shots with Worthy and Kareem.

Dirk averaged 23 and 10 that season with 1.2 blocks and 1.1 steals.
I remember that series very well. I lived in Arlington at the time and went to many Mavericks games and sat courtside plenty of times. I went to Dirk's first NBA game ( A preseason game vs the Suns).

Dirk was very much in his prime and was already 23 years old. He had already beaten Malone straight up in a series and had put up a 40/20 on Duncan in the 01 playoffs.
Only an idiot would say that someone is not in their prime averaging 23 and 10 with 1.2 steals and 1.2 blocks and leading his team to the playoffs for the first time in 12 years.

Dirk's "prime" was like 00-about 12. Even his absolute Prime was like 00-09

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 05:40 PM
And the reason they were getting on Garnett hard that series is because of skin color. Hate to say it but it's true. They were even saying some racist stuff on TNT.

YAALREADYKNO
11-09-2015, 06:25 PM
So I guess Magic Johnson never had a prime then since he was sharing shots with Worthy and Kareem.

Dirk averaged 23 and 10 that season with 1.2 blocks and 1.1 steals.
I remember that series very well. I lived in Arlington at the time and went to many Mavericks games and sat courtside plenty of times. I went to Dirk's first NBA game ( A preseason game vs the Suns).

Dirk was very much in his prime and was already 23 years old. He had already beaten Malone straight up in a series and had put up a 40/20 on Duncan in the 01 playoffs.
Only an idiot would say that someone is not in their prime averaging 23 and 10 with 1.2 steals and 1.2 blocks and leading his team to the playoffs for the first time in 12 years.

Dirk's "prime" was like 00-about 12. Even his absolute Prime was like 00-09

Magics game was to get others involved lmao he was a pass first kinda player which is totally different from Dirk so you're not really proving anything with that point.

If you really watched the mavs in the early 00's then you would know that it was Finley and not Dirk who would have the ball in the closing seconds of the game while Dirk would stand and wait in the corner. It wasn't until injuries hit Finley and Nash that we really saw him take on more responsibilities for those mavs teams. You're only looking at the numbers. That same year was his best playoffs STATISTICALLY but you wouldn't be dumb enough to say that was his best playoff Run would you? Or shaq in his first year with Miami averaging 22 & 10 was he still in his prime then? Smh look beyond what the stats tell you.

And no they were getting on kg because he was shying away in the 4th quarter. It wasn't that hard to see lol

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 10:11 PM
Magics game was to get others involved lmao he was a pass first kinda player which is totally different from Dirk so you're not really proving anything with that point.

If you really watched the mavs in the early 00's then you would know that it was Finley and not Dirk who would have the ball in the closing seconds of the game while Dirk would stand and wait in the corner. It wasn't until injuries hit Finley and Nash that we really saw him take on more responsibilities for those mavs teams. You're only looking at the numbers. That same year was his best playoffs STATISTICALLY but you wouldn't be dumb enough to say that was his best playoff Run would you? Or shaq in his first year with Miami averaging 22 & 10 was he still in his prime then? Smh look beyond what the stats tell you.

And no they were getting on kg because he was shying away in the 4th quarter. It wasn't that hard to see lol

So do you only count the season a player averages the most points for a season of their career.

So if a player averages 25 one year but then 26 the next you think his prime didn't start until the 26 ppg season. You're not making any sense.

Shaq's prime was like age 21-32 without looking it up.

Primes are usually about age 23-31 in the NBA just on average. Some can go longer and some start sooner.

You're analogy about a player having to be the number one option to be in their prime doesn't really make any sense at all. Sorry to say it that way to you but it doesn't. By the way I never missed a Dallas Mavericks game since 1990. I've only missed a few here in the last couple of seasons because the NBA is less entertaining some games. I don't find it right that you acuse me of never watching the Mavs in the early 2000's.
Yes I know that Finley was more of the last second guy in those years, But Dirk was still in his prime. They just liked Finley for the last second shots and Dirk didn't mind Finley taking some of those shots.
By the way they did go to Dirk in the low post some to win games. Go check the game against Denver in Denver around 01 that he won. Also go check the game in Dallas when he dunked on Ben Wallace in 01 to beat the Pistons. Maybe that one was 02. That game was around Christmas and the change of the year.
I know a lot about the Mavs.

I still don't see how you can say an All NBA Second Team player isn't in their prime. It's not like he started averaging 40 a game later in his career. No, he went from 23 to 25. That's all good. I've seen players go from 21-27 then back to 21 and then to 25. All those years are the players prime. People need to stop scuffing at 21 a game.


I was also the ONLY one saying Dirk was going to be a 10 time all star, that was draft day.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 10:20 PM
Anyway, Dirk was well into his prime when he averaged 33 and 15 on 57% shooting vs KG, Billups and the T-Wolves.

That's not the point of this topic. This is about KG vs Lebron. Who did MORE things to help a team win? Who was more dominant down low in the post?

YAALREADYKNO
11-09-2015, 10:37 PM
So do you only count the season a player averages the most points for a season of their career.

So if a player averages 25 one year but then 26 the next you think his prime didn't start until the 26 ppg season. You're not making any sense.

Shaq's prime was like age 21-32 without looking it up.

Primes are usually about age 23-31 in the NBA just on average. Some can go longer and some start sooner.

You're analogy about a player having to be the number one option to be in their prime doesn't really make any sense at all. Sorry to say it that way to you but it doesn't. By the way I never missed a Dallas Mavericks game since 1990. I've only missed a few here in the last couple of seasons because the NBA is less entertaining some games. I don't find it right that you acuse me of never watching the Mavs in the early 2000's.
Yes I know that Finley was more of the last second guy in those years, But Dirk was still in his prime. They just liked Finley for the last second shots and Dirk didn't mind Finley taking some of those shots.
By the way they did go to Dirk in the low post some to win games. Go check the game against Denver in Denver around 01 that he won. Also go check the game in Dallas when he dunked on Ben Wallace in 01 to beat the Pistons. Maybe that one was 02. That game was around Christmas and the change of the year.
I know a lot about the Mavs.

I still don't see how you can say an All NBA Second Team player isn't in their prime. It's not like he started averaging 40 a game later in his career. No, he went from 23 to 25. That's all good. I've seen players go from 21-27 then back to 21 and then to 25. All those years are the players prime. People need to stop scuffing at 21 a game.


I was also the ONLY one saying Dirk was going to be a 10 time all star, that was draft day.

What the? You were the one bringing up numbers lol I was doing the total opposite. I'm telling you that yes Dirk was putting up nice numbers but he wasn't the Dirk we know him to be these days. Once he had more responsibilities for the mavs you really saw what he was able to do. Finley got those shots because Dirk wasn't ready at that time. He was used for more of being a decoy. Even Nash was the 2nd option behind Finley in those situations lol. Dirk was a good player entering his prime that year but compared to kg he was not in his prime like how kg was and he absoultey was the best player In that series and out played kg.

As for kg vs lebron neither of them weren't really dominate down in the low post but what the hell does that have to do with who was better in their primes? The myth with kg needs to stop. He just wasn't that go to guy you could count on offensively consistently in the playoffs.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 11:24 PM
Finley was getting last second shots because he was a guard. Most last second shots are designed for gaurds.

However, Dirk did hit many game winners in his third NBA season and led the team in WS in his third season. then put up a 42 and 18 game on Duncan and Robinson in game 6 of the WCSF. Also added 6 steals.

It doesn't matter who takes the final shot. A player can be in his prime and not take the final shot. Look at Pippen. Phil Liked Toni Kukoc, John Paxson or Jordan taking the final shot but Pippen was a top SF of the entire decade of the 90's.

Dirk was in his prime from 00-about 11. during that time he had to adjust his game some. He was more athletic in his early years.

Dirk made the All NBA third team in 01 and become one of the youngest players ever to do so in recent years.

this is a fact that if you are an All NBAer you are in your prime. you're trying to lie.

So was John Paxson not in his prime until they passed to him in the 93 Finals to hit the game winner. He was already like 34 years old. That is what you're saying.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 11:47 PM
Dirk was better than KG that season and everyone knew Dirk should've been All NBA 1st team and Garnett shoudl've been Second team. Dirk out played him in the regular season for two straight seasons and then completly out played his entire team in the 02 Series. Dirk was already in his PRIME. PRIME STARTS YOUR THIRD SEASON.

Everyone was calling him a top 10 player after the 01 Playoffs.

You couldn't see it because you really didn't watch the games and you don't understand the game and you would listening to idiots.

I already knew Dirk was a top 25 player ALL TIME by the age he was 21. I could just see it. He would hit so many game winners and he was amazing on the road that first season.

His win Shares was higher than Garnetts and His team won 57 games which is astounding in that west.

Acutally if you took that 21 year old crazy Dirk with the long hair and the royal blue jerseys that beat Stockton and Malone and played him with the 11 Championship team in Miami he would've averaged like 35 a game. They wouldn't know what to do.

YAALREADYKNO
11-09-2015, 11:47 PM
Finley was getting last second shots because he was a guard. Most last second shots are designed for gaurds.

However, Dirk did hit many game winners in his third NBA season and led the team in WS in his third season. then put up a 42 and 18 game on Duncan and Robinson in game 6 of the WCSF. Also added 6 steals.

It doesn't matter who takes the final shot. A player can be in his prime and not take the final shot. Look at Pippen. Phil Liked Toni Kukoc, John Paxson or Jordan taking the final shot but Pippen was a top SF of the entire decade of the 90's.

Dirk was in his prime from 00-about 11. during that time he had to adjust his game some. He was more athletic in his early years.

Dirk made the All NBA third team in 01 and become one of the youngest players ever to do so in recent years.

this is a fact that if you are an All NBAer you are in your prime. you're trying to lie.

So was John Paxson not in his prime until they passed to him in the 93 Finals to hit the game winner. He was already like 34 years old. That is what you're saying.

First off Paxson was nothing more than a role player on those bulls teams that's totally different. Dirk early on was criticized for just standing around in the corner. He wasn't even the 2nd option because That role went to Nash. If you actually watched the mavs early on you'd be able to see this. Just look how Dirk went from being strictly a jumpshooter when Nash and Finley was there to being more aggressive when they were gone. Again he was making all star teams and all that but anyone who watched Dirk when he was with Finley and Nash to when he was the lone star on that team will tell you he became a better player and of course why wouldn't you choose those guys to shoot over Pippen? Pippen wasn't exactly known as a great shooter like Dirk was lmao that's common sense. He just wasn't ready to take on that role so early in his career. There was a reason why they trusted not just one but two players ahead of Dirk for those situations. You're pretty much just going off numbers instead of looking at their actual game and let's be real here, that jazz team in 01 were old and they were up 2-0 that series. Dirk in 01 would not have beaten that heat team because he was strictly a jump shooter back then. Again you're just looking at the numbers instead of actually watching how they played.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 11:58 PM
First off Paxson was nothing more than a role player on those bulls teams that's totally different. Dirk early on was criticized for just standing around in the corner. He wasn't even the 2nd option because That role went to Nash. If you actually watched the mavs early on you'd be able to see this. Just look how Dirk went from being strictly a jumpshooter when Nash and Finley was there to being more aggressive when they were gone. Again he was making all star teams and all that but anyone who watched Dirk when he was with Finley and Nash to when he was the lone star on that team will tell you he became a better player and of course why wouldn't you choose those guys to shoot over Pippen? Pippen wasn't exactly known as a great shooter like Dirk was lmao that's common sense. He just wasn't ready to take on that role so early in his career. There was a reason why they trusted not just one but two players ahead of Dirk for those situations. You're pretty much just going off numbers instead of looking at their actual game.

And the truth comes out. Dirk was never critized for standing in the corner. you were listening to idiots all day probably.

Dirk hit many game winners. They just liked to let Finley hit some and Nash hit some. WTF is wrong with you. Why are you so hung up on who takes the final shot everytime. Dirk got plenty of clutch shots and actually led the league in clutch baskets a free throws in the 00-01 season. So you were being presueded as a younster probably about 19 at the time by idiots that didn't really like Dirk. So you were going to the wrong local sports bars.

Go check the numbers.

Dirk hit plenty of game winners and like that even means a damn thing.

So I guess McHale wasn't in his prime until he was 35 years old playing Mourning and Johnson in the 94 playoffs when they finally let him shoot the final shot. Please, give me a break. McHale was in his prime from day one back in 1980. He was just a bench player but he could still do it all. He was asked to play more in the mid 80's because Maxwell left, but he was still the same player that just kept getting better.


The word "prime" in sports is talking about players that aren't really ready for the pros and need to fill out more and get better and work on their game. Then when they do, usually third third season, It's called PRIME then.

Didn't you ever hear a darn thing Bob Otegal would say on the Dallas Commentary. You must have been out drinking.

It's a vague term. It just means the player is playing about as well as he can play. you seem to think of it as a technical term that is talking about when the player had his best game ever and won a title with a last second shot in game 7 of the NBA Finals to win the Title. And then to never reach that level again.

Give me a BREAK!!!

AirPippen33
11-10-2015, 12:02 AM
You need to go to those other sites where they sit around cherry picking certain seasons of each player and talk about some word called "peak". They act like a player only has one great season or something. Eventhough someone like M Jordan actually got better every single season he played in the NBA. With the Bulls atleast. True. He didn't average as many points, but he got better and learned more tricks about the game the older he got. The game became more and more easy to him.

All that being said Jordan's prime was from freaking 18 to 35. From the age of 18 he could've stepped on an NBA court and dominated with 26 a game and 3 steals.

AirPippen33
11-10-2015, 12:05 AM
Most players are in their prime from 20-32 or so.

Some players in high school can be in their prime too.

Shawn Kemp was averging 30/ 20 and 8 blocks with 5 dimes in high school at 6'8 230.

Moses Malone was averaging 38 ppp 28 rebounds 8 blocks in high school.

YAALREADYKNO
11-10-2015, 12:14 AM
And the truth comes out. Dirk was never critized for standing in the corner. you were listening to idiots all day probably.

Dirk hit many game winners. They just liked to let Finley hit some and Nash hit some. WTF is wrong with you. Why are you so hung up on who takes the final shot everytime. Dirk got plenty of clutch shots and actually led the league in clutch baskets a free throws in the 00-01 season. So you were being presueded as a younster probably about 19 at the time by idiots that didn't really like Dirk. So you were going to the wrong local sports bars.

Go check the numbers.

Dirk hit plenty of game winners and like that even means a damn thing.

So I guess McHale wasn't in his prime until he was 35 years old playing Mourning and Johnson in the 94 playoffs when they finally let him shoot the final shot. Please, give me a break. McHale was in his prime from day one back in 1980. He was just a bench player but he could still do it all. He was asked to play more in the mid 80's because Maxwell left, but he was still the same player that just kept getting better.


The word "prime" in sports is talking about players that aren't really ready for the pros and need to fill out more and get better and work on their game. Then when they do, usually third third season, It's called PRIME then.

Didn't you ever hear a darn thing Bob Otegal would say on the Dallas Commentary. You must have been out drinking.

It's a vague term. It just means the player is playing about as well as he can play. you seem to think of it as a technical term that is talking about when the player had his best game ever and won a title with a last second shot in game 7 of the NBA Finals to win the Title. And then to never reach that level again.

Give me a BREAK!!!

Dirk was strictly a freaken jump shooter in his early years. If you didn't see that then it's clear you were not watching those mavs teams at all. There's a reason why Finley and even Nash had that "closer" role over Dirk because Dirk was just not confident when it came to closing out games at that point early in his career. Why do you think Sacramento had dallas's number almost every year and they made Dirk work for everything he got? Because they put a 6'8 hedo turkoglu who had just enough length to contest his jump shots but was quick enough to stay in front of him. Why'd they do that because Dirk early on was a JUMPSHOOTER with little to no post game. A players prime depends on the player. You just don't automatically think a guy is in his prime just because it's his 3rd year do you? Just look at steph curry. He was coming into his own during his 3rd-4th seasons but nobody would say that he was in his prime then smh.
For a guy who "knows" a lot about Dirk, you obviously didn't know how a team like the Kings defended him and made it tough for him back in the days smh. You're too caught up into stats. Yet you know a lot about Dirk? As lethal as Dirk was as a jumpshooter once he started attacking the rim more and actually developed a post game he became even more lethal but obviously to you its all about the numbers smh GTFO

AirPippen33
11-10-2015, 12:26 AM
Oh, you need help. you think Dirk was just a jump shooter. Go watch some dunk videos of Dirk right now. Type in Dirk dunk on youtube and you'll see all the dunks he had in his first 5 seasons.

Dirk was way fast in his early years and would play a lot of point center or point foward. He would drive to the rim about half the time and was one of the leaders in And 1's at the rim, layups at the rim and even had about 60 dunks a season back then. Also was in the top 10 in FTA's FTA means Free Throw Attempts. I have to make sure with you. you don't know basic basketball lingo.

Dirk was leading the team in scoring from 2000- on. Which was when he was like 21 years old. Even Don Nelson kept telling idiots like you that Dirk is a hard worker and that it will be about 2 years after the draft for him to reach his prime. The draft was in 98 In 2000 he was in his prime averaging 22, 9.3, 1.2 blocks. Blocks that's another thing he'd get more of in his prime. Also like I said he LED THE LEAGUE in CLUTCH points in 2000 when he was 21 years old. He was also 3rd in the NBA in ROAD SCORING on 50% shooting. It was one of the best ROAD seasons in the history of the NBA in 2000-01 for Dirk.

you just don't know much about Dirk ,You never watched the Mavs or basketball. You probaly just started acting like you payed attention to it for the social aspect of it all in Dallas at the time. You know like some people social drink.

YAALREADYKNO
11-10-2015, 12:38 AM
Oh, you need help. you think Dirk was just a jump shooter. Go watch some dunk videos of Dirk right now. Type in Dirk dunk on youtube and you'll see all the dunks he had in his first 5 seasons.

Dirk was way fast in his early years and would play a lot of point center or point foward. He would drive to the rim about half the time and was one of the leaders in And 1's at the rim, layups at the rim and even had about 60 dunks a season back then. Also was in the top 10 in FTA's FTA means Free Throw Attempts. I have to make sure with you. you don't know basic basketball lingo.

Dirk was leading the team in scoring from 2000- on. Which was when he was like 21 years old. Even Don Nelson kept telling idiots like you that Dirk is a hard worker and that it will be about 2 years after the draft for him to reach his prime. The draft was in 98 In 2000 he was in his prime averaging 22, 9.3, 1.2 blocks. Blocks that's another thing he'd get more of in his prime. Also like I said he LED THE LEAGUE in CLUTCH points in 2000 when he was 21 years old. He was also 3rd in the NBA in ROAD SCORING on 50% shooting. It was one of the best ROAD seasons in the history of the NBA in 2000-01 for Dirk.

you just don't know much about Dirk ,You never watched the Mavs or basketball. You probaly just started acting like you payed attention to it for the social aspect of it all in Dallas at the time. You know like some people social drink.

So a couple of dunks made Dirk an attacking machine? Shaq would hit both free throws sometimes does that make him a good free throw shooter? Why did teams back in the day put smaller 6'7-6'8 more athletic guys on him then? Because they would take away his ability to beat them off the dribble and force him to take tough contested JUMP SHOTS! If you say he was in his prime back then when he still had athleticism then why didn't he ever get to an NBA finals? The mavs would never get past the Kings because like I said the Kings had the perfect game plan for him. It wasn't until he developed his post game that teams stopped putting 6'7-6'8 players on Dirk. All you do is look at stats and that's what tells you the whole story smh. I know you didn't watch the mavs or Dirk back then because even people who didn't really watch him knew teams used to put their smaller athletic defenders on Dirk to make him one dimensional because he had little to no post game and that is what everyone was saying he needed to work on.

Hawkeye15
11-10-2015, 01:42 AM
I'd say you're getting testy. I do know about the Wolves and you're sort of fibbing and straight lying about Garnett in the playoffs. You don't what me to find his best playoff seasons in his prime do you.

also he carried two career losers to the Championships and Finals two times. Let's not pretend that Pierce and allen were world beaters.

22/13/5/1.5/1.5 for his best 7 Playoffs in a row.

That's pretty good for the West where all team have multiple HOFers.

KG was healthy for one season in the East and that one season he happened to Win the Title.

he was 1 for 1.

Lebron is 2 for 12.


I'll take the 1 for 1 odds.

if there is one person on this entire site you don't want to talk about KG with, it's me.

I am not testy. I love KG. But he was a straight up ***** when the clutch happened, and the sole reason he isn't a top 5 player ever is because he ran and hid when it mattered most.

So, let's talk about each and every game he played. Show me how you possibly know more about the Wolves, than I do.

Good luck Bron hater

AirPippen33
11-10-2015, 08:49 AM
So a couple of dunks made Dirk an attacking machine? Shaq would hit both free throws sometimes does that make him a good free throw shooter? Why did teams back in the day put smaller 6'7-6'8 more athletic guys on him then? Because they would take away his ability to beat them off the dribble and force him to take tough contested JUMP SHOTS! If you say he was in his prime back then when he still had athleticism then why didn't he ever get to an NBA finals? The mavs would never get past the Kings because like I said the Kings had the perfect game plan for him. It wasn't until he developed his post game that teams stopped putting 6'7-6'8 players on Dirk. All you do is look at stats and that's what tells you the whole story smh. I know you didn't watch the mavs or Dirk back then because even people who didn't really watch him knew teams used to put their smaller athletic defenders on Dirk to make him one dimensional because he had little to no post game and that is what everyone was saying he needed to work on.

If you put a PF on him in his ATHLETIC PRIME which was 00-05 He would just simply up fake him and drive right around him everytime for the left layup or the lefty jam. Sometimes he'd dunk it with his right. As for his dunks. They don't put very many of them on Youtube because well, people in Dallas weren't recording games and making high light packages of him. Same with people in San Antonio and other cities for Duncan and Robinson.
Dirk would dunk about 60 times a season. That is almost 1 dunk a game and he would get about 300 layups a season. for about 4 layups per game. So that is 5 baskets a game at the rim.

Then some teams saw that a PF couldn't guard him so they would put a SF on him. Nelson would then tell Nash to call 4 Down. Nash would do this and pass to Dirk on the LOW block for an easy post up play 5 feet from the basket. They would run this play about 12 times a game from 00-05 until Nelson left. Avery wasn't the offensive genius that Nelson was at finding and exploiting mismatches.

AirPippen33
11-10-2015, 08:53 AM
if there is one person on this entire site you don't want to talk about KG with, it's me.

I am not testy. I love KG. But he was a straight up ***** when the clutch happened, and the sole reason he isn't a top 5 player ever is because he ran and hid when it mattered most.

So, let's talk about each and every game he played. Show me how you possibly know more about the Wolves, than I do.

Good luck Bron hater

Could you be SPECIFIC about a certain game when he didn't want to take the final shot to win a game?

Also was Shaq and Wilt Clutch? Why are they both top 5 players all time then?

YAALREADYKNO
11-10-2015, 09:44 AM
Yeah ok now I really know you weren't watching the mavs and Dirk in the early 00's. Nash was gone by the 04-05 season and the mavs tried to turn Jason terry into a pg which obviously didn't work out. Also, teams from 00-04 used to put small forwards on Dirk because they knew he was most likely gonna just settle for a jumper. Why do you think once Nash left his 3pt attempts dropped drastically? It's because he couldn't rely on running that pick & pop play with with a Jason terry who isn't half the passer Nash was and terry just couldn't run and set up an offense. That's when Dirk started to develop somewhat of a low post game and teams started to stop putting their 6'7-6'8 small forwards on Dirk. It's not hard to see that once Nash left Dirk became even a better player than he already was.

And yes shaq is pretty clutch. You don't win back to back to back championships as the main guy if you're not playing up to par. Kg as great as he was in the regular season just couldn't elevate his game in the postseason like some of the other greats.

AirPippen33
11-10-2015, 11:31 AM
obviously you didn't watch young Dirk. you're just listening to the chatter around you to form your opinion.

Dirk would drive and post up most all the time. (at least half his shots). Go type in the Nike Hoops Summit Dirk Nowitzki. You'll see him as a 19 year old with NBA game already in the key and around the rim.

Dirk was the first 7 foot SF ever. Bradley, Juwan Howard, and Dirk. Who is the SF there and the PF.

Bradley, Trent, Dirk. Who is the SF

Bradley, Laettner and Dirk was even a starting lineup a few times.

You don't know who any of these players are so it's useless.

KG was also a SF but KG is actually 6'11.

Dirk was a SF/PF and vice versa PF/SF also played and started at center a few times. I remember one time Don Nelson doing that against Shaq in his prime. He was trying to draw Shaq out of the lane, because he explained on the radio before the game how Shaq completely shuts down the lane on defense by him self practically. (haters won't tell you that about Shaq). Dirk did well there in LA. He had 33 points on like 15 shots. I would have to get the boxscore to see the exact numbers but I'm pretty much right. A lot better than anyone else could do without looking at the boxscore.

In the Nelson years, the only play Nelson would call was 4 down. Which meant Dirk on the block. he would call that about 15 times a game. Dirk would get about 10 shots out or it and pass off 5 other times. Even Nelson said that is the main reason they drafted Dirk, because he had a post game and he was strong and said it was the favorite thing they liked about Dirk.

you're just listening to all the chatter and people that didnt' like Don Nelson and wanted him out. They would lie and say good riddance and then say Dirk has automatically learned to post up with Avery. Actually Avery called less post up plays for Dirk. dumb people just didn't like Don Nelson for different petty reasons and also Don was in a feud and lawsuit with Mark Cuban the area darling at the time so that added to it.

YAALREADYKNO
11-10-2015, 11:43 AM
obviously you didn't watch young Dirk. you're just listening to the chatter around you to form your opinion.

Dirk would drive and post up most all the time. (at least half his shots). Go type in the Nike Hoops Summit Dirk Nowitzki. You'll see him as a 19 year old with NBA game already in the key and around the rim.

Dirk was the first 7 foot SF ever. Bradley, Juwan Howard, and Dirk. Who is the SF there and the PF.

Bradley, Trent, Dirk. Who is the SF.

Bradley, Laettner and Dirk was even a starting lineup a few times.

You don't know who any of these players are so it's useless.

KG was also a SF but KG is actually 6'11.

the only play Nelson would call was 4 down. Which meant Dirk on the block. he would call that about 15 times a game. Dirk would get about 10 shots our or it and pass off 5 other times. Even Nelson said that is the main reason they drafted Dirk, because he had a post game and he was strong. Yes they could see he could shoot for a 7 footer and dribble and run, but Nelson himself said they wouldn't had drafted him had he not had the post game he had. He also said it was their favorite thing about him.

you're just listening to all the chatter and people that didnt' like Don Nelson and wanted him out. They would lie and say good riddance and then say Dirk has automatically learned to post up with Avery. Actually Avery called less post up plays for Dirk. dumb people just didn't like Don Nelson for different petty reasons and also Don was in a feud and lawsuit with Mark Cuban the area darling at the time.

If Dirk was posting up all the time then why was he being defended by 6'7-6'8 guys who were more athletic who could stay in front of him even though Dirk had a good 5-6 inches on them? It's because he didn't really post up like how he did today and they knew he couldn't get by those guys and that forced Dirk to take contested jump shots all the time. That was the biggest flaw in dirks game early in his career. He played pf but just cause you're a pf doesn't mean that other teams have to defend you with another pf smh. It wasn't until Dirk developed a post game that teams went back to defending Dirk with big guys again, but then again why try to argue with you when you think a prime kg was better than a prime lebron lolol i love how you keep saying lebron was 2-4 in the finals but always avoid talking about how kg was getting his *** kicked in the first round for 6 years in a row 😂

AirPippen33
11-10-2015, 12:22 PM
[QUOTE=YAALREADYKNO;30497532]If Dirk was posting up all the time then why was he being defended by 6'7

Could you be specific? Which teams were doing that and which players?

In his early 6 years he was rarely if ever defended by SF's. If you did, Don Nelson would quickly call a low post up 5 feet from the basket and Dirk would take his time and be patient and back the smaller defender down and either dunk on him or lay it in. Dirk could also do this against established PF's too by the way.

YAALREADYKNO
11-10-2015, 12:32 PM
[QUOTE=YAALREADYKNO;30497532]If Dirk was posting up all the time then why was he being defended by 6'7

Could you be specific? Which teams were doing that and which players?

In his early 6 years he was rarely if ever defended by SF's. If you did, Don Nelson would quickly call a low post up 5 feet from the basket and Dirk would take his time and be patient and back the smaller defender down and either dunk on him or lay it in. Dirk could also do this against established PF's too by the way.

The Kings did that with turkoglu and the Spurs did that with Bowen. The Warriors also did that with Stephen Jackson and it worked every time. The mavs only beat the Kings in 02-03 because c-Webb got injured. The very next year the Kings smashed the mavs 4-1. Dirk was a spot up shooting perimeter guy who would run the pick and pop with Nash before he turned into a post up isolation matchup nightmare for everyone. Once he developed a post game that's when teams had no choice but to put bigger guys on him because now he would just back them down and score. Before that teams would stick there most athletic wing player on Dirk and force him to run that pick and pop with Nash or force him to take tough contested jump shots because he wasn't taking a 6'7-6'8 athletic wing off the dribble.

AirPippen33
11-10-2015, 01:06 PM
[QUOTE=YAALREADYKNO;30497624][QUOTE=AirPippen33;30497599]

The Kings did that with turkoglu and the Spurs did that with Bowen. The Warriors also did that with Stephen Jackson and it worked every time. The mavs only beat the Kings in 02

The Mavs were going to win the Kings series in 03 anyway. They were leading throughout the series. Dirk was playing great. He averaged like 25 and 15 in the series.

You're a straight up LIAR. Everything you say is a lie.

So Bowen wasn't even in SAN Antonio until like 04. What did they guard Dirk with before that. Danny Ferry who is a 6'10 pf. They would also put Duncan on him some, but the Spurs didnt' like that matchup because then Dirk would pull Duncan out from the hoop and force their best shot blocker to come out from under the hoop. See, it's called strategy, something you don't know.

Also I like the way Dirk won game 7 in San Antonio on bowen and ginobili.

When GS guarded him with Stephen Jackson they were triple teaming him everytime he caught the ball or started to drive. That was Don Nelsons Defense.

You're all over the place, that was also in 07.

you didn't watch Dirk from the beginning. He was a BIG PF on the post that was 7 feet and 250 pure muscle.

He was usually guarded by players like Webber, Garnett, Donyell Marshall, Malone, Duncan, Ferry, McDyess,

It affected teams defense too much because Dirk was a 40% three point shooter and consistent. So really pretty much the first was Don Nelson decided to put a bunch of guards on him in 07. It worked because avery can't coach to save his life didn't know how to call a 4 - down play. Had Avery called 4-down each time Dirk would've averaged 30 a game on the Warriors and they would've beat the Warriors in 07. But Avery didn't want to win.

From day one if you put a sf on Dirk he'll post him up. If you put a defensive PF that likes to hang around the basket he'll pull him out. This is from day one. You just weren't on board the entire time as a Mavs fan. Infact he'd even post up most PF's.

I specifically remember him winning a game in Denver around 2000 December where he backed a Prime McDyess in to the middle of the lane faked a shot and McDyess jumped on him then pump faked and went up for a shot that he made from about 7 feet away in the very middle of the lane with like 3 seconds left in the game. He made the AND 1 free throw and the Mavs won by 2.

YAALREADYKNO
11-10-2015, 01:39 PM
[QUOTE=YAALREADYKNO;30497624][QUOTE=AirPippen33;30497599]

The Kings did that with turkoglu and the Spurs did that with Bowen. The Warriors also did that with Stephen Jackson and it worked every time. The mavs only beat the Kings in 02

The Mavs were going to win the Kings series in 03 anyway. They were leading throughout the series. Dirk was playing great. He averaged like 25 and 15 in the series.

You're a straight up LIAR. Everything you say is a lie.

So Bowen wasn't even in SAN Antonio until like 04. What did they guard Dirk with before that. Danny Ferry who is a 6'10 pf. They would also put Duncan on him some, but the Spurs didnt' like that matchup because then Dirk would pull Duncan out from the hoop and force their best shot blocker to come out from under the hoop. See, it's called strategy, something you don't know.

Also I like the way Dirk won game 7 in San Antonio on bowen and ginobili.

When GS guarded him with Stephen Jackson they were triple teaming him everytime he caught the ball or started to drive. That was Don Nelsons Defense.

You're all over the place, that was also in 07.

you didn't watch Dirk from the beginning. He was a BIG PF on the post that was 7 feet and 250 pure muscle.

He was usually guarded by players like Webber, Garnett, Donyell Marshall, Malone, Duncan, Ferry, McDyess,

It affected teams defense too much because Dirk was a 40% three point shooter and consistent. So really pretty much the first was Don Nelson decided to put a bunch of guards on him in 07. It worked because avery can't coach to save his life didn't know how to call a 4 - down play. Had Avery called 4-down each time Dirk would've averaged 30 a game on the Warriors and they would've beat the Warriors in 07. But Avery didn't want to win.

From day one if you put a sf on Dirk he'll post him up. If you put a defensive PF that likes to hang around the basket he'll pull him out. This is from day one. You just weren't on board the entire time as a Mavs fan. Infact he'd even post up most PF's.

I specifically remember him winning a game in Denver around 2000 December where he backed a Prime McDyess in to the middle of the lane faked a shot and McDyess jumped on him then pump faked and went up for a shot that he made from about 7 feet away in the very middle of the lane with like 3 seconds left in the game. He made the AND 1 free throw and the Mavs won by 2.

The Spurs did defend Dirk with Bruce Bowen wtf? Lolol even before he got there they had a 6'7 Malik rose defending Dirk a lot of the time and even ginobili defended him at times. Duncan was barley guarding Dirk.
Even in the 05 playoffs when the mavs and rockets were matched up the rockets put a 6'9 Ryan Bowen and a 6'8 McGrady on Dirk and that limited dirk. The next round against the Suns they were using Shawn Marion and joe Johnson to try to limit Dirk. Anybody who knows basketball will tell you Dirk had his way with the bigger guys early in his career and it was the smaller athletic guys with length that bothered him the most.
In the 06 finals a 6'8 udonis Haslem gave Dirk some problems and the very next year in 07 Dirk was struggling against who? Athletic wing defenders with some length to them. Don Nelson had the perfect game plan for Dirk but Dirk was relying too much on his face up instead of making golden state pay by putting smaller players on him. Do you remember any of that if you really watched Dirk early in his career or am I just making that up? Smh

AirPippen33
11-10-2015, 02:38 PM
[QUOTE=AirPippen33;30497694][QUOTE=YAALREADYKNO;30497624]

The Spurs did defend Dirk with Bruce Bowen wtf? Lolol even before he got there they had a 6'7 Malik rose defending Dirk a lot of the time and even ginobili defended him at times. Duncan was barley guarding Dirk.
Even in the 05 playoffs when the mavs and rockets were matched up the rockets put a 6'9 Ryan Bowen and a 6'8 McGrady on Dirk and that limited dirk. The next round against the Suns they were using Shawn Marion and joe Johnson to try to limit Dirk. Anybody who knows basketball will tell you Dirk had his way with the bigger guys early in his career and it was the smaller athletic guys with length that bothered him the most.
In the 06 finals a 6'8 udonis Haslem gave Dirk some problems and the very next year in 07 Dirk was struggling against who? Athletic wing defenders with some length to them. Don Nelson had the perfect game plan for Dirk but Dirk was relying too much on his face up instead of making golden state pay by putting smaller players on him. Do you remember any of that if you really watched Dirk early in his career or am I just making that up? Smh

Do you have any idea why a team didn't want to put a 7 footer on Dirk? I want you to answer that. What would it do to the teams defense?

His best scoring seasons PER SHOT were actually when Don Nelson coached him because Don would have him on the low block half the game. I'm not exhaggerating at all when I say that. It was Avery who didn't like the post up offense and went more to a guard oriented jumpshooting offense. Eventhough Dirk had already proved to be a great post up player. Remember it was Avery that pulled Dampier and Diop in the 07 Playoffs. He went with Dirk at the 5 and 4 guards. It played into GS's hands because GS had the better guards.

Dirk was a post up player from day one. Ask Charles Barkley in the 98-99 Season.

Dirk was even more of a post player than Garnett was.

Dirk was a mismatch problem for opposing team from day one. Because he was 7 feet, could post up and could shoot. He had it all. He could even drive.

you're just listening to BS media that thought they had to make excuses for Avery in 05, 06 and 07 so the meida liking Avery a lot and much more than Dirk decided to make up things and lie. Dirk was a post up freak in 01-02-03... o4 he didn't get the ball much with ball hog walker on the team, but once again a post up freak in 05 and then Avery started to just like jumpshots with Terry mainly. Avery was a horrible coach. The media loved him though because he worked at ESPN, NBA TV for several years and he'd been in a few movies.

Dirk could post up every season.

the reason they finally won a title is because they the West wasn't as great finally and the East was horrible and they didn't rig the 11 Finals. So he finally got his ring. They didn't rig it against him like they did in 06.

YAALREADYKNO
11-10-2015, 02:58 PM
[QUOTE=YAALREADYKNO;30497756][QUOTE=AirPippen33;30497694]

Do you have any idea why a team didn't want to put a 7 footer on Dirk? I want you to answer that. What would it do to the teams defense?

His best scoring seasons PER SHOT were actually when Don Nelson coached him because Don would have him on the low block half the game. I'm not exhaggerating at all when I say that. It was Avery who didn't like the post up offense and went more to a guard oriented jumpshooting offense. Eventhough Dirk had already proved to be a great post up player. Remember it was Avery that pulled Dampier and Diop in the 07 Playoffs. He went with Dirk at the 5 and 4 guards. It played into GS's hands because GS had the better guards.

Dirk was a post up player from day one. Ask Charles Barkley in the 98-99 Season.

Dirk was even more of a post player than Garnett was.

Dirk was a mismatch problem for opposing team from day one. Because he was 7 feet, could post up and could shoot. He had it all. He could even drive.

you're just listening to BS media that thought they had to make excuses for Avery in 05, 06 and 07 so the meida liking Avery a lot and much more than Dirk decided to make up things and lie. Dirk was a post up freak in 01-02-03... o4 he didn't get the ball much with ball hog walker on the team, but once again a post up freak in 05 and then Avery started to just like jumpshots with Terry mainly. Avery was a horrible coach. The media loved him though because he worked at ESPN, NBA TV for several years and he'd been in a few movies.

Dirk could post up every season.

the reason they finally won a title is because they the West wasn't as great finally and the East was horrible and they didn't rig the 11 Finals. So he finally got his ring. They didn't rig it against him like they did in 06.


Not early in his career he wasn't SMH. Its clear to me you did not watch the mavs at all. Nelson wanted dirk to be that stretch 4 and shoot away 3's. He ran the pick and pop with nash countless times. He's the coach who in the final minutes of the game wanted Dirk to just be a floor spacer to make room for nash and finley. He was the coach who traded away nick van exel and brought in Antoine walker so he could move Dirk to center so he could play more small ball. You have no idea what you are saying at all its ridiculous.
Why do you think Nelson in golden state knew how to match up against Dirk? I've been telling you this whole entire time Dirk had his way with the bigger guys in the league and the smaller more athletic guys were the ones who would give him the most trouble.
Dirk would spot up and shoot a lot and would usually drive right pass by the bigger guys if they were defending him. Then teams started figuring out that if you put a quicker guy on Dirk with enough length to bother his shot he'd be less effective. Its no accident that everytime you saw the mavs and kings matched up you saw a guy like Hedo defend dirk more than you did divac or c-webb.
When the spurs defended him they didn't put nesterovic or Duncan on him. They put a 6'7 malik rose and even ginobili got some chances to guard dirk before bruce bowen got there. The suns the same thing with shawn marion and joe Johnson.
For a guy who supposedly watched dirk for his whole career you sound like you barley started watching him from 07 on. He was never this good in the post as to where he is now for his whole entire career. Just stop. smh

slashsnake
11-12-2015, 05:58 AM
Although everyone including Ray Allen himself knows that the 13 Finals was luck. They needed a major Popovich mistake and a lucky three by Ray Allen.

Really James has 1 Ring legitimately he knows darn well he didn't deserve the 13 one and the Spurs proved it in convincing fashion in the 14 Finals. They set a record for the best beating ever. Miami didn't even want to play on the same team with each other after that beating. Pretty much ruining that franchise forever.


Also when Miami did beat the Celtics it wasn't even convincingly and Allen, Pierce, and Garnett were already past their primes. Also Rondo was injured.

Head to Head both in their primes Garnett owned Lebron.

Also I would say that Lebron had more overall in Cleveland than Garnett had in Minn.

Also it's the West vs the East and not only that but Garnett played in the Jordan era some. He played in that better era and James never even played in that era. James was going against an old Piston team that was way past their primes and an old Nets team with an injured Kidd and things like that.

The East was a joke from like 00-well really now....

What the heck? A big shot to win a game by an all time great shooter no longer counts as anything but luck? We taking rings from Detroit, LA, San Antonio because of what Elliott, Chauncey, Horry and Fisher did too while we are at it? How much history are we rewriting because we wish he hadn't made that shot?

So are we taking away Garnetts only ring because PJ Brown has the luckiest game of his life in the 4th quarter of a game 7 ECF? You really want to just erase Garnett's lone championship?

And what do you mean Lebron didn't do well vs. that Celtics team. He was 34 and 11 on 53% shooting in that series. In what aspect was Garnett even close to him there? That was the short year where the old celtics were playing better off a short season, and yes Rondo got hurt. His team was down 2-0 with a healthy Rondo though.


Are we removing rings from Jordan because an old *** Chris Mullin pushed him further than he should have? lol


And "he played in the Jordan Era"... you are serious about that? He averaged 15-8 in the Jordan era, and couldn't even get out of the first round. He beat a Jordan Bulls team... ONCE. Really?

Prime Lebron got a crap team around him and left because he couldn't win in the finals with them and left and formed a team that won multiple championships. Prime Garnett got a crap team around him and left because he couldn't even get them in the playoffs, and formed a team that won a championship.

slashsnake
11-12-2015, 06:18 AM
[QUOTE=YAALREADYKNO;30497756][QUOTE=AirPippen33;30497694]

Do you have any idea why a team didn't want to put a 7 footer on Dirk? I want you to answer that. What would it do to the teams defense?

His best scoring seasons PER SHOT were actually when Don Nelson coached him because Don would have him on the low block half the game. I'm not exhaggerating at all when I say that. It was Avery who didn't like the post up offense and went more to a guard oriented jumpshooting offense. Eventhough Dirk had already proved to be a great post up player. Remember it was Avery that pulled Dampier and Diop in the 07 Playoffs. He went with Dirk at the 5 and 4 guards. It played into GS's hands because GS had the better guards.

Dirk was a post up player from day one. Ask Charles Barkley in the 98-99 Season.

Dirk was even more of a post player than Garnett was.

Dirk was a mismatch problem for opposing team from day one. Because he was 7 feet, could post up and could shoot. He had it all. He could even drive.

you're just listening to BS media that thought they had to make excuses for Avery in 05, 06 and 07 so the meida liking Avery a lot and much more than Dirk decided to make up things and lie. Dirk was a post up freak in 01-02-03... o4 he didn't get the ball much with ball hog walker on the team, but once again a post up freak in 05 and then Avery started to just like jumpshots with Terry mainly. Avery was a horrible coach. The media loved him though because he worked at ESPN, NBA TV for several years and he'd been in a few movies.

Dirk could post up every season.

the reason they finally won a title is because they the West wasn't as great finally and the East was horrible and they didn't rig the 11 Finals. So he finally got his ring. They didn't rig it against him like they did in 06.

What the ????


What Dirk did you watch? Early Dirk was before he bulked up to play in the post.


Guy had 1/3 of his shots early on come from beyond the arc. pick and pop, screen and step back, slow trail on the fast break and stop at the 3pt line as the d all had collapsed inside. Or take guys off the dribble on the face up, or cut to the hole and get shots at the rim. He was playing more point forward early on too switching that role with Finley before Nash took over at PG. Basically lived at the top of the key too.

They'd play him on the perimeter all the time, he'd take bigs off the dribble, or they'd collapse off him when Nash and Finley went to the rack and he'd be there open.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-YKhZ-B_OQ

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0WEAEzfN0kA

There's a 33 point game from him in a win over the Jazz in the 2000 playoffs and a 45 point game of his over the Spurs in 2001. Every single score of his. Once you see him posting someone up and that's when John Stockton gets switched up on him (and he kicks it out to Nash for an open shot).

I think it was 04 or 05 when the Mavs traded for Walker and Jameson and Dirk moved to center when he really bulked up and started playing some back to the basket with consistency and started going to that turn around jumper, and it slowly started growing more and more after that, but we are talking post-Finley when he really made that a consistent part of his game.

slashsnake
11-12-2015, 06:31 AM
I know 9-10 years ago sounds like when he was young, but Dirk started out backing up AC Green. 9-10 years ago was his mid career.

thegerman
10-28-2017, 03:39 PM
that is a toss up, but I would take lebron