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Sadds The Gr8
11-07-2015, 03:35 PM
NOT A TROLL THREAD


After last year and these first several games, it's clear to me that Stephen Curry is the league's best player, but the public still overwhelmingly assumes Lebron is the best player. Nobody effects the game today the way Curry does, and his numbers are staggering. We seem to hesitate when it comes to dethroning the best player in the league. We did the same thing with Kobe when Lebron was clearly better in like 08-09. Lebron is obviously still a top 3 player, but I think it's ridiculous that most basketball fans blindly crown him as the clear best player when there's certainly an argument against it. Why do we hesitate to dethrone the best player in the league? thoughts?

Arch Stanton
11-07-2015, 03:37 PM
This thread again... Wasn't there one last week? Lol!

Sadds The Gr8
11-07-2015, 03:40 PM
This thread again... Wasn't there one last week? Lol!

was there? I dont post in here much anymore. if it was that recent then my bad.

LegendX
11-07-2015, 03:56 PM
Truthfully I think the opposite. I think people too easily crown the next great player as the best & it happens in pretty much all sports. I wouldn't begrudge anybody for claiming Curry to be the best because he's earned it, but that's not to say Lebron isn't the best as you could make a strong, valid argument for him also. When it's not clear cut, a toss up between 2 phenomenal players, it depends on personal preferences on who you like.

mngopher35
11-07-2015, 03:57 PM
I think one of the issues is that as Lebron (and other greats) get older it becomes about the playoffs for them and they stop dominating the regular seasons. Last year I would certainly say Curry/Harden etc. had better regular seasons than Lebron but come playoffs I would have still chosen Lebron to lead my team over those two (curry was close though).

This year I think might be a little different as I believe Curry might actually be a bit better and Lebron will continue to decline. I won't be able to say for sure until the time comes but this year I would probably agree Lebron is no longer going to finish as the best player.

nastynice
11-07-2015, 04:28 PM
I don't know who's the best. What I do know is Curry is one BAD man. And he is AT WORST a top 3 player in the league, n I'm happy with that :)

Personally I'd still have to go with lebron, Curry still needs to keep doing it for longer

Gander13SM
11-07-2015, 04:53 PM
Longevity is a big deal for people. Hence the hesitation.

Regardless. I'm tempted to agree with you.

KnicksorBust
11-07-2015, 05:03 PM
NOT A TROLL THREAD


After last year and these first several games, it's clear to me that Stephen Curry is the league's best player, but the public still overwhelmingly assumes Lebron is the best player. Nobody effects the game today the way Curry does, and his numbers are staggering. We seem to hesitate when it comes to dethroning the best player in the league. We did the same thing with Kobe when Lebron was clearly better in like 08-09. Lebron is obviously still a top 3 player, but I think it's ridiculous that most basketball fans blindly crown him as the clear best player when there's certainly an argument against it. Why do we hesitate to dethrone the best player in the league? thoughts?

I am with you. Curry is the man even though PSD has him 3rd.

Just curious because I got attacked for trying to pass the torch to Curry after the Finals.... at what exact point do you think Curry took his spot?

FlashBolt
11-07-2015, 05:21 PM
PSD has Curry third because that thread was created before the season started. I think Steph is the best player right now but I also think LeBron has a higher chance of winning when it matters (if that makes sense). Sure, Steph is lighting it up in the regular season but there is zero chance he keeps that level of production by the end of the season. We're too infatuated with the present.. he's clearly playing like the best but like I said, I'd still take LeBron in the postseason. I agree with mngopher as well regarding older players tending to not put as much emphasis in the regular season as the post. Am I being biased? Maybe, but it's only 6 games into the season. Let's go back to this by the All-Star game.

Sadds The Gr8
11-07-2015, 05:23 PM
Truthfully I think the opposite. I think people too easily crown the next great player as the best & it happens in pretty much all sports. I wouldn't begrudge anybody for claiming Curry to be the best because he's earned it, but that's not to say Lebron isn't the best as you could make a strong, valid argument for him also. When it's not clear cut, a toss up between 2 phenomenal players, it depends on personal preferences on who you like.
I can see your point for football, as it's happening with Gurley now and Luck last year, but i think in basketball we overrate the older superstars much more. In basketball I guess Davis would be your example but i dont see ppl calling him the best yet.


I am with you. Curry is the man even though PSD has him 3rd.

Just curious because I got attacked for trying to pass the torch to Curry after the Finals.... at what exact point do you think Curry took his spot?

I voted for lbj in that poll but my mind changed in the past week or so. What curry is doing is ridiculous and I see no reason why he'd stop producing at an insane level (he obviously wont average 35 ppg and 8 3fgm). His stats/efficiency combined with his impact on offense is unlike anybody in nba history.

Yanks All Day
11-07-2015, 05:51 PM
I'd still say Curry is the 2nd best player in the NBA. But that's no indictment on him by any stretch. He obviously had a phenomenal year last season and started this one out on fire. But it's not like LeBron has been bad enough to be dethroned. In fact, we were 2 games away from LeBron leading his team to a championship over Curry's heavily favored squad.

LeBron still has as big an impact on the game as anyone in basketball. They just do it in different ways. Curry is in the phase of his career where he's hitting his prime at 27, just won an MVP, and is on a stacked team. He's showing off and it's incredible to watch, because he's one of the greatest shooters you'll ever see. LeBron is at a point where he has to preserve his body, play limited minutes, and make sure he carries most of the load for a team missing a trio of important players. Golden State looks like the best team in the NBA easily, but Cleveland looks like the 2nd best because of LeBron's overall impact.

Let's put it this way, if a soon-to-be 31 year old LeBron with a bad back can lead his team to the Finals missing its 2nd and 3rd best players and then follow it up by carrying his team at the start of the season missing 3 of its 4 best guards, he's having a great impact. He's still basically averaging 24/7/7 while shooting 50% from the field.

Curry is an immense talent, but I think he's had the benefit of comfort and continuity of situation over LeBron in the last year. Not much about Golden State has changed, not even health. Cleveland is a combination of moving parts and injured players and the only constant is LeBron James. The fact that they're even close speaks to LeBron's overall impact. For that reason, I'd still have LeBron 1 and Curry 2, but the 1-2 gap is closer than 2-3 and everyone after them.

Hawkeye15
11-07-2015, 05:55 PM
Curry, and a healthy Durant are better. But I might still take LeBron in the playoffs. But it's very clear he doesn't take the regular season on like he used to. Father time doesn't lose. Ever.

JEDean89
11-07-2015, 05:56 PM
lebron is too valuable being able to guard 5 positions better than anyone in the league. curry's ability to stroke the 3 and pass the ball makes him the 2nd best player alive, but lbj still has him for that two way impact. I think LBJ has another 2-3 seasons at the top, before Davis truly becomes the league best. If Curry can continue his torrid pace, and get up slightly over a PER of 30 by the end of the season, he has to be the repeat MVP. I have the Warriors winning 68 games, Curry with the MVP and the Warriors with a 2nd title as of what I've seen today. The only guy who can throw a wrench in anyone's plan is Durant, who if healthy, can also get his 2nd MVP. Westbrook, Harden and Paul sit on that next echelon after those 4, with Blake, Harden and Cp3 on the one after that. We got some serious talent in the league right now.

Sadds The Gr8
11-07-2015, 06:02 PM
I'd still say Curry is the 2nd best player in the NBA. But that's no indictment on him by any stretch. He obviously had a phenomenal year last season and started this one out on fire. But it's not like LeBron has been bad enough to be dethroned. In fact, we were 2 games away from LeBron leading his team to a championship over Curry's heavily favored squad.

LeBron still has as big an impact on the game as anyone in basketball. They just do it in different ways. Curry is in the phase of his career where he's hitting his prime at 27, just won an MVP, and is on a stacked team. He's showing off and it's incredible to watch, because he's one of the greatest shooters you'll ever see. LeBron is at a point where he has to preserve his body, play limited minutes, and make sure he carries most of the load for a team missing a trio of important players. Golden State looks like the best team in the NBA easily, but Cleveland looks like the 2nd best because of LeBron's overall impact.

Let's put it this way, if a soon-to-be 31 year old LeBron with a bad back can lead his team to the Finals missing its 2nd and 3rd best players and then follow it up by carrying his team at the start of the season missing 3 of its 4 best guards, he's having a great impact. He's still basically averaging 24/7/7 while shooting 50% from the field.

Curry is an immense talent, but I think he's had the benefit of comfort and continuity of situation over LeBron in the last year. Not much about Golden State has changed, not even health. Cleveland is a combination of moving parts and injured players and the only constant is LeBron James. The fact that they're even close speaks to LeBron's overall impact. For that reason, I'd still have LeBron 1 and Curry 2, but the 1-2 gap is closer than 2-3 and everyone after them.
This is a reasonable opinion even tho disagree. I think LBJ is easier to stop than curry since he's now a horrific shooter again. His defense isn't elite anymore which is the thing that would edge him out over curry. I can't buy the resting for the playoffs excuse for him because in the playoffs last year he also slacked on defense. Curry is clearly the better offensive player now and I don't know if LBJ has the defense anymore to put him on top.

Raps18-19 Champ
11-07-2015, 06:14 PM
I still think he's the best, but I think it's very close among the top 3 as well with Durant and Curry.

More-Than-Most
11-07-2015, 06:34 PM
I have no issues with people making a case for Curry/Durant.... I think James is right there but doesnt take the regular season as seriously and rightfully so.

More-Than-Most
11-07-2015, 06:35 PM
Lol I am glad the votes are public... Check them often : )

jerellh528
11-07-2015, 07:07 PM
Curry and kd when healthy are better. Lebron being in a position where he needs to conserve himself for playoffs isn't exactly a positive for his case, if he had to exert himself through the regular season, would he even be close to the player he is for the playoffs now? He seemed pretty burnt last playoffs even with "conserving himself", could only imagine if he hadn't been saving himself. Don't see how he gets a pass for what he does in the playoffs when the other players fight all season long. Just my opinion tho.

Hawkeye15
11-07-2015, 07:21 PM
Curry and kd when healthy are better. Lebron being in a position where he needs to conserve himself for playoffs isn't exactly a positive for his case, if he had to exert himself through the regular season, would he even be close to the player he is for the playoffs now? He seemed pretty burnt last playoffs even with "conserving himself", could only imagine if he hadn't been saving himself. Don't see how he gets a pass for what he does in the playoffs when the other players fight all season long. Just my opinion tho.


show me another all timer who played like he was 25-27 after game 1100. After 5 finals runs. No human can play every game like a young man after that. Sorry.

jerellh528
11-07-2015, 07:30 PM
show me another all timer who played like he was 25-27 after game 1100. After 5 finals runs. No human can play every game like a young man after that. Sorry.

Doesn't change anything I said though

Hawkeye15
11-07-2015, 07:35 PM
Doesn't change anything I said though

how do you think he gets a pass though? Makes no sense. Everyone in here is saying during the regular season he probably isn't. That is how it works, for EVERY all timer, when they reach a certain amount of games/minutes, certain things start to peel off. It's the ones that can learn how to still be effective that continue dominating, but in a lesser way (day in, day out).

He doesn't get a pass. It's well recognized he stopped being an elite defender a few years ago (last one in Miami), and the last 2 seasons, plays the regular season at a pace that allows rest.

That is just how it works. You are acting like any player at game 1100 gets a pass? Nah

jerellh528
11-07-2015, 07:43 PM
how do you think he gets a pass though? Makes no sense. Everyone in here is saying during the regular season he probably isn't. That is how it works, for EVERY all timer, when they reach a certain amount of games/minutes, certain things start to peel off. It's the ones that can learn how to still be effective that continue dominating, but in a lesser way (day in, day out).

He doesn't get a pass. It's well recognized he stopped being an elite defender a few years ago (last one in Miami), and the last 2 seasons, plays the regular season at a pace that allows rest.

That is just how it works. You are acting like any player at game 1100 gets a pass? Nah

Like when ppl say "I'll take X player in regular season, but in the playoffs give me Lebron" when Lebron has been "conserving" himself for playoffs while everyone else balls so hard every game. Just read throughout this thread, so many ppl refer to Lebron not taking regular season serious, but picks it up during the regular season. Yeah he's only able to pick it up because he's been half assing it all year

FlashBolt
11-07-2015, 07:43 PM
Curry and kd when healthy are better. Lebron being in a position where he needs to conserve himself for playoffs isn't exactly a positive for his case, if he had to exert himself through the regular season, would he even be close to the player he is for the playoffs now? He seemed pretty burnt last playoffs even with "conserving himself", could only imagine if he hadn't been saving himself. Don't see how he gets a pass for what he does in the playoffs when the other players fight all season long. Just my opinion tho.

How did LeBron get a pass? You Kobe fanatics will always continue spamming 2-4. He gets a semi-pass from guys who actually use logic in their arguments. AKA, if two of your best players are out and you're going against an historically ALL-NBA great team, then you shouldn't be blamed for the loss. The guy did everything he could. Much different than when he did deserve to be blamed for the Mavs series loss when it looked like he didn't want to do anything.

jerellh528
11-07-2015, 07:47 PM
How did LeBron get a pass? You Kobe fanatics will always continue spamming 2-4. He gets a semi-pass from guys who actually use logic in their arguments. AKA, if two of your best players are out and you're going against an historically ALL-NBA great team, then you shouldn't be blamed for the loss. The guy did everything he could. Much different than when he did deserve to be blamed for the Mavs series loss when it looked like he didn't want to do anything.

.

Vee-Rex
11-07-2015, 07:47 PM
I'm close to giving it to Curry. I'm a big proponent of longevity though. I feel like if Bron cared as much about the regular season he'd put up bigger numbers than he's doing now.

So right now I gotta stick with Bron. Might hand it over to Curry this year though.

And I certainly think people can make an argument for Curry or even Durant right now. Phenomenal players.

kobe4thewinbang
11-07-2015, 08:10 PM
That "former" best player was, who knows, a shot or two away, an ounce of energy away, or another Cavalier actually making a shot away, from defeating the "new" best player. Strip Curry of his two best teammates and let's see him equal or do what LeBron almost did last finals. Wait 2 years especially if the back trouble persists before forgetting how amazing LeBron is.

FlashBolt
11-07-2015, 08:25 PM
That "former" best player was, who knows, a shot or two away, an ounce of energy away, or another Cavalier actually making a shot away, from defeating the "new" best player. Strip Curry of his two best teammates and let's see him equal or do what LeBron almost did last finals. Wait 2 years especially if the back trouble persists before forgetting how amazing LeBron is.

Exactly. I think we're too quick to label a new just because we get tired of something. Curry is on his way if he continues this state of dominance but he hasn't done enough just yet.

Vee-Rex
11-07-2015, 08:37 PM
Exactly. I think we're too quick to label a new just because we get tired of something. Curry is on his way if he continues this state of dominance but he hasn't done enough just yet.

This. Can't be a prisoner of the moment. Curry certainly makes it hard not to be, though.

Chronz
11-07-2015, 08:49 PM
Curry and kd when healthy are better. Lebron being in a position where he needs to conserve himself for playoffs isn't exactly a positive for his case, if he had to exert himself through the regular season, would he even be close to the player he is for the playoffs now? He seemed pretty burnt last playoffs even with "conserving himself", could only imagine if he hadn't been saving himself. Don't see how he gets a pass for what he does in the playoffs when the other players fight all season long. Just my opinion tho.

Every superstar eventually reaches this point tho. A point where you would gladly absorb a few more losses in the RS for a spirited playoff team. Shaq and Kobe are my favorite examples. There came a short point where KG was the guy who was without a doubt the best bigman in the game, except, come playoffs. Shaq and Duncan were both superior IMO but thats just me. Kobe was surpassed by Bron in the regular season for years before I admitted he was the superior player, cuz come playoffs, they were far more relatable.

They get a pass because one season matters more than the other. They just have to get there.

Chronz
11-07-2015, 08:53 PM
How did LeBron get a pass? You Kobe fanatics will always continue spamming 2-4. He gets a semi-pass from guys who actually use logic in their arguments. AKA, if two of your best players are out and you're going against an historically ALL-NBA great team, then you shouldn't be blamed for the loss. The guy did everything he could. Much different than when he did deserve to be blamed for the Mavs series loss when it looked like he didn't want to do anything.

You can blame him for his poor play, but if he was surrounded by bums, I think Bron would defer less. He would still struggle but it would just look different. His Finals against the Mavs was bad but there have been worse from stars, even some who wound up winning in the process.

More-Than-Most
11-07-2015, 09:10 PM
That "former" best player was, who knows, a shot or two away, an ounce of energy away, or another Cavalier actually making a shot away, from defeating the "new" best player. Strip Curry of his two best teammates and let's see him equal or do what LeBron almost did last finals. Wait 2 years especially if the back trouble persists before forgetting how amazing LeBron is.

his back might be more of an issue then people think... i thought he would play at a top 10 player until the age of 33-35 but that might not be the case anymore and the next 2 years might be the last chance for him to actually be able to carry a team.

JasonJohnHorn
11-07-2015, 09:37 PM
There are a few players off to a better start than he is, but he's also playing hurt.

The thing is, every night you look at the stats, he never had the best night, but he's usually among the five best performances; other guys don't finish that high that consistently, with the exception of a small handful.


Off the top of my head, the guys who are playing at that level every game right now are KD, Westy, LBJ and obviously Curry. And maybe Drummond.

LBJ is a better rebounder than any of them, and a better defender than any of them, and he's playing hurt. He team is missing one of their big three, and they are still playing well.

If somebody wants to say Curry is the best, I won't argue. If they say KD and Westy are playing better right now, sure.. but they are healthy.

At the end of the day, when you look at what LBJ did in the finals last year... other than the low FG% (which was because there was nobody to guard on that team other than LBJ), it was historic. Sure, Curry's start is historic as well, but let's wait to see how long he keeps it up. Curry may very well have a peak year that excels what Kobe and T-Mac did in their best years, and may very well be the best player in the game statistically. But LBJ will still have an edge in that he can dictate the direction of a game on both ends of the floor.


There is an obvious case of Curry, and also Westy and KD, but let's let the season play out. LBJ has made it to the finals five years in a row. That is something special. and he led both teams in points, assists, and rebound in the finals, when he was playing against Curry, who wasn't even the MVP.


We need some more time before we hand the torch off, regardless of how much better Curry is for a fantasy league right now.

tredigs
11-07-2015, 10:14 PM
I'm actually very impressed by LeBron's effort/play to start the year, especially defensively.

That said, I think we're going to witness a top 3 season All Time from Curry. His skill + command of the game is at a level that seems almost impossible, and though he's going to have a regression from his current level, I don't think it will be significant. I think he's accepted his offensive ability and is just unleashing it at full throttle now.

MygirlhatesCod
11-07-2015, 11:14 PM
There are a few players off to a better start than he is, but he's also playing hurt.

The thing is, every night you look at the stats, he never had the best night, but he's usually among the five best performances; other guys don't finish that high that consistently, with the exception of a small handful.


Off the top of my head, the guys who are playing at that level every game right now are KD, Westy, LBJ and obviously Curry. And maybe Drummond.

LBJ is a better rebounder than any of them, and a better defender than any of them, and he's playing hurt. He team is missing one of their big three, and they are still playing well.

If somebody wants to say Curry is the best, I won't argue. If they say KD and Westy are playing better right now, sure.. but they are healthy.

At the end of the day, when you look at what LBJ did in the finals last year... other than the low FG% (which was because there was nobody to guard on that team other than LBJ), it was historic. Sure, Curry's start is historic as well, but let's wait to see how long he keeps it up. Curry may very well have a peak year that excels what Kobe and T-Mac did in their best years, and may very well be the best player in the game statistically. But LBJ will still have an edge in that he can dictate the direction of a game on both ends of the floor.


There is an obvious case of Curry, and also Westy and KD, but let's let the season play out. LBJ has made it to the finals five years in a row. That is something special. and he led both teams in points, assists, and rebound in the finals, when he was playing against Curry, who wasn't even the MVP.


We need some more time before we hand the torch off, regardless of how much better Curry is for a fantasy league right now.

its ironic that you say that because fantasy league style is how lebron has staked his teams for those last 5 runs. while he has led all those teams in scoring you cant take away the crazy amount of talent he always has around him. i think what divides curry from lebron right now (not by much) is his crazy efficient offense and that curry makes his teammates better. thats something i believe that lebron never really cared to do or even did by accident.

Hawkeye15
11-07-2015, 11:41 PM
Like when ppl say "I'll take X player in regular season, but in the playoffs give me Lebron" when Lebron has been "conserving" himself for playoffs while everyone else balls so hard every game. Just read throughout this thread, so many ppl refer to Lebron not taking regular season serious, but picks it up during the regular season. Yeah he's only able to pick it up because he's been half assing it all year

yep. Welcome to an elite all timer with 1100 games under his belt and long playoff runs. Again, you act like he is all of a sudden being given a pass, when everyone has alluded to the fact that nope, he isn't going to have the best regular season, but he is still a player most would take come playoff time.

vics
11-08-2015, 12:21 AM
Sorry, Lebron is still the best player in the world..

mrblisterdundee
11-08-2015, 01:13 AM
It's pretty obvious Curry is the best player right now. LeBron's obviously worlds better than Curry defensively, but Curry is producing offense at historic levels.

slashsnake
11-08-2015, 05:29 AM
I want to see more of Curry to say yes. As of a couple weeks ago, the most recent we had seen of Lebron was him going for 36-13-9 in an NBA finals in what might have been the best individual effort in a finals ever. That's top 10 all time for points scored in a finals.... and rebounds in a finals... and assists in a finals.

So yeah, 6 games beyond that...

One was a 30 point blowout win where he was resting a lot and letting others play, in the other 5 he had 3 double doubles.

Maybe this is where in 5-10 years we will be looking back and saying that's when the transition happened, but I need to see him not be the best player in the world on the biggest stage to say that.

LegendX
11-08-2015, 05:41 AM
Best way I can explain this is like this:

Curry is in the better form but Lebron is the better player.

But at the same time Curry is very close to being the best in the league - if he isn't already. You also have Durant, who if he could stay healthy, would have a strong case. There's also Harden, consistency is key, & fair or not, so is team success. There's a strong case for Harden, though not as strong as Curry, Durant or LeBron.

And those knocking Lebron for, in some sense, taking it easy in the regular season are foolish. In certain games or situations during the season there's no doubt he'll give it his all. Of course you want your best player to take it easy - when necessary - to save themselves for the playoffs, especially when you consider how many games & minutes such a player has played through.

Anyway... As I was saying... Curry is in the best form amongst all these players, carrying over from last season into this season, so long as he remains consistent - although he doesn't need to continue playing at this ridiculous level - you can crown him quite easily as the best. However it isn't a farce to believe Lebron is still the best player in the league.

GoferKing_
11-08-2015, 07:48 AM
The answer is simple. Just ask yourself who would you pick when building a team.

RenegadeRiot36
11-08-2015, 11:19 AM
You guys realize that LeBron is playing basically at half speed while injured too right? Lets also not forget Irving and JR are still hurt around him too. His jumpshooting is still off and he is still the most dominant player in the game when he turns it on, and if you watch a Cavs game you'll be able to recognize when he makes that switch during each game. Otherwise he's just chilling on the court. If you think there was a drop off from his finals form to now, you're sadly mistaken.

I agree his numbers won't be up to par with years past, but that is because LeBron wise enough to realize that he has the luxury of conserving himself until the playoffs. I guarantee you we'll see that same animal come out again at that time. Don't be surprised when it happens. Steph is definitely the cool person to root for at this point, but he has literally had every advantage you could give to a point guard in the league in terms of talent, scheme, etc. Outside of his GOAT shooting, there is still no comparison to LeBron.

Sly Guy
11-08-2015, 11:53 AM
I don't think longevity has anything to do with CURRENT best payer. That being said, the argument of the veteran player saving it for the playoffs is a valid one. I personally still take LBJ on my team over curry, but curry is making a great case for himself right now

jerellh528
11-08-2015, 12:07 PM
yep. Welcome to an elite all timer with 1100 games under his belt and long playoff runs. Again, you act like he is all of a sudden being given a pass, when everyone has alluded to the fact that nope, he isn't going to have the best regular season, but he is still a player most would take come playoff time.

Yeah but why would they take him during playoff time? Because he's been not putting forth the same effort as every other top player during the regular season. If he did, would he still even be able to play at a high level during playoffs? You saw how burnt he was last season, he played like **** though the majority of the playoffs, even with him self preservation.. I don't think anyone gets what I'm saying. Imagine if durant got to "save himself" for playoffs, but no, he has to struggle every day for seeding and Ws. I'm sayin the fact that he can no longer sustain the best season in it's entirety is reason to not be labeled a best player. The league's best player can't be a part timer.

AirPippen33
11-08-2015, 01:14 PM
because there are alot of fake fans that only look at stats in the regular season and don't understand stats don't always tell the whole story. Also also of those fake fans don't really understand basketball. They have been taught however to just look for the player or players that average 25+ppg 7 rebounds and 7 assist.
They usually ignore all other stats and pretty much ignore watching the games. To them even a player that averages 40ppg on 60% shooting 6 assist and 4 rebounds would not be as good as a player that averages 25, 7 and 7 on 45% shooting.

It's also biased opinion aswell. they get so used to cheering one guy year after year and hyping that one guy that they lose all reality on how good that player actually is or what he has actually accomplished and against whom.

All that being said Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA today and has been for the last 12 years. (Since Shaq was winding down his career, Shaq was the best before Duncan).

Duncan proves it every season in the Playoffs when it's winning time. He swept lebrat, wade and the entire miami team. In 13 he actually won that series as well but Popovich over thinks things sometimes and he benched his plus 22 Tim Duncan in the final minute and the 5 point lead turned to nothing in a matter of seconds. That's how important Tim Duncan was to the team he played on. His defense is so far greater than any player today and his post offense is a throwback to when the NBA was Great. He can get you a bucket when ever you call his name. He usually likes to back you in and then do a jump hook from the middle of the lane about 4 feet away from the rim.

Last season and playoffs he carried a mediocre team to game 7 in LA and LA needed the refs to help them at the end. LA Clippers were a legit contender and Tim Duncan nearly beat that entire team and the refs by his self

I was being kind when I called the Spurs mediocre without Tim Duncan. They'd be a 15-25 win team last season without Tim Duncan. Everyone had a bad season on that team except Duncan.

FlashBolt
11-08-2015, 03:25 PM
because there are alot of fake fans that only look at stats in the regular season and don't understand stats don't always tell the whole story. Also also of those fake fans don't really understand basketball. They have been taught however to just look for the player or players that average 25+ppg 7 rebounds and 7 assist.
They usually ignore all other stats and pretty much ignore watching the games. To them even a player that averages 40ppg on 60% shooting 6 assist and 4 rebounds would not be as good as a player that averages 25, 7 and 7 on 45% shooting.

It's also biased opinion aswell. they get so used to cheering one guy year after year and hyping that one guy that they lose all reality on how good that player actually is or what he has actually accomplished and against whom.

All that being said Tim Duncan is the best player in the NBA today and has been for the last 12 years. (Since Shaq was winding down his career, Shaq was the best before Duncan).

Duncan proves it every season in the Playoffs when it's winning time. He swept lebrat, wade and the entire miami team. In 13 he actually won that series as well but Popovich over thinks things sometimes and he benched his plus 22 Tim Duncan in the final minute and the 5 point lead turned to nothing in a matter of seconds. That's how important Tim Duncan was to the team he played on. His defense is so far greater than any player today and his post offense is a throwback to when the NBA was Great. He can get you a bucket when ever you call his name. He usually likes to back you in and then do a jump hook from the middle of the lane about 4 feet away from the rim.

Last season and playoffs he carried a mediocre team to game 7 in LA and LA needed the refs to help them at the end. LA Clippers were a legit contender and Tim Duncan nearly beat that entire team and the refs by his self

I was being kind when I called the Spurs mediocre without Tim Duncan. They'd be a 15-25 win team last season without Tim Duncan. Everyone had a bad season on that team except Duncan.

How is Tim Duncan the best player today? He's certainly one of the best historically but if you're relying on strictly Tim Duncan to carry a team, that's not happening. He's as successful as he is because he's in a custom-fit system with players that all jell. Kawhi is better than Duncan at this point so how is Duncan possibly the best?

And Tredigs said Curry will have a top 3 season. That's being way too generous. It's only 7 games into the season and Curry has slowed down from his first three games. I expect his averages to hit 26-28 PPG on 50% shooting/45% three point, which is amazing but hardly a top 3 season unless he's pulling up high APG/RPG (which he hasn't been doing much of lately). KD/Bron's MVP seasons are tough to match as well.

AirPippen33
11-08-2015, 03:50 PM
How is Tim Duncan the best player today? He's certainly one of the best historically but if you're relying on strictly Tim Duncan to carry a team, that's not happening. He's as successful as he is because he's in a custom-fit system with players that all jell. Kawhi is better than Duncan at this point so how is Duncan possibly the best?

And Tredigs said Curry will have a top 3 season. That's being way too generous. It's only 7 games into the season and Curry has slowed down from his first three games. I expect his averages to hit 26-28 PPG on 50% shooting/45% three point, which is amazing but hardly a top 3 season unless he's pulling up high APG/RPG (which he hasn't been doing much of lately). KD/Bron's MVP seasons are tough to match as well.

I'd say Curry is better than James overall now. Many others would agree with me that understand the game. They are not basing it off stats or the 7 games played this season. They're basing it off last season and the 7 games this season.

As for Duncan he can carry a team. He carried just a "nice" team to back to back Finals and actually won both soundly if not for Popovich benching him in the 4th because he thought it was locked up already.

You say Duncan can't lead a team to a Ring, but what about lebrat? You need to apply that same theory to your favorite player who keeps team hopping so he can join other established HOF player in thier prime.

Last time they faced in the Finals Duncan beat lebrat 4-1.

Hawkeye15
11-08-2015, 05:22 PM
Like when ppl say "I'll take X player in regular season, but in the playoffs give me Lebron" when Lebron has been "conserving" himself for playoffs while everyone else balls so hard every game. Just read throughout this thread, so many ppl refer to Lebron not taking regular season serious, but picks it up during the regular season. Yeah he's only able to pick it up because he's been half assing it all year


so? That is what happens at a certain time in an athletes career when they have been a superstar player who carriers a huge load. Every single star in history, ever single sport. At a certain point, you pick and choose when you give all you can, so you are fresh for the playoffs. Like how is that unique to LeBron haha, because you hate him?

Happens to all of them. It happened to Jabbar, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan (hell his coach did it for him). Now LeBron.

Guess what? He used to be 27 years old, busting his *** nightly, being an elite defender, playing every game as hard as he can. And guess what? In 5 years, Durant, and Curry will be picking and choosing what regular season games to take a rest, where to concede effort, all so they can be fresher for the playoffs.

Age, and more so wear and tear, do actually matter. Durant and Curry combined haven't played as many minutes (Curry around 16,400 total, Durant around 24,800) as LeBron has. Of course they have more to give, their body can handle it.

Hawkeye15
11-08-2015, 05:25 PM
read that again jerrell. Durant and Curry haven't combined in minutes played, to equal LeBron. And you expect him treating the regular season like anything more than a warm up for his inevitable 25 post season games? After he has played 100 games a year for 5 straight years now?

please

DanG
11-08-2015, 07:18 PM
I would still take LeBron in the playoffs. It's like Kobe-LeBron throughout 2008-2010. Also, there's no need for him play hard in the regular season because he is in the East.

jerellh528
11-08-2015, 08:17 PM
so? That is what happens at a certain time in an athletes career when they have been a superstar player who carriers a huge load. Every single star in history, ever single sport. At a certain point, you pick and choose when you give all you can, so you are fresh for the playoffs. Like how is that unique to LeBron haha, because you hate him?

Happens to all of them. It happened to Jabbar, Magic, Bird, Jordan, Shaq, Kobe, Duncan (hell his coach did it for him). Now LeBron.

Guess what? He used to be 27 years old, busting his *** nightly, being an elite defender, playing every game as hard as he can. And guess what? In 5 years, Durant, and Curry will be picking and choosing what regular season games to take a rest, where to concede effort, all so they can be fresher for the playoffs.

Age, and more so wear and tear, do actually matter. Durant and Curry combined haven't played as many minutes (Curry around 16,400 total, Durant around 24,800) as LeBron has. Of course they have more to give, their body can handle it.

Again, this has zero to do with him being the best player today. You're not getting my point. Unless you think those birds, Jordan's, kajs, are still the best until they retire. nothing you said has any relevance to my point, I know how many minutes he's played, It's part of the reason he's no longer the best. What don't you get?

Hawkeye15
11-08-2015, 09:10 PM
Again, this has zero to do with him being the best player today. You're not getting my point. Unless you think those birds, Jordan's, kajs, are still the best until they retire. nothing you said has any relevance to my point, I know how many minutes he's played, It's part of the reason he's no longer the best. What don't you get?

you act as if he gets a pass. No, he doesn't. I will take him come playoffs over those other guys that balled out all year, while his old *** paced himself to save it for when it matters.

Jamiecballer
11-08-2015, 10:04 PM
there's something utterly offensive about the notion that an athlete should "save it for when it matters".

valade16
11-08-2015, 10:15 PM
there's something utterly offensive about the notion that an athlete should "save it for when it matters".

In what way? This is common practice among all players and even coaches.

People are calling Popovich the greatest coach ever possibly for saving his athletes for when it matters. So when he does it he's a genius and when Bron does it it's offensive?

Bruno
11-08-2015, 10:16 PM
I hate to say it's not LeBron. but he's at the age when the torch gets passed while most don't notice. i'd say i only care about the playoffs, so who cares about his regular season "advanced" stats, but his line from last post season was mortal. I think its up in the air, but a changing of the guard is in motion. I'd give LBJ one more post season before feeling so certain about it.

JJ_JKidd
11-08-2015, 11:16 PM
I though Harden is the best player now? Or last time I checked, NBA "experts" are d!ickr!ding Anthony Davis till the Pelicans recent slump? Ho-hum NBA nowadays, cant wait till the playoffs start tbh.

Hawkeye15
11-08-2015, 11:23 PM
In what way? This is common practice among all players and even coaches.

People are calling Popovich the greatest coach ever possibly for saving his athletes for when it matters. So when he does it he's a genius and when Bron does it it's offensive?

apparently it is to some

Jamiecballer
11-08-2015, 11:27 PM
In what way? This is common practice among all players and even coaches.

People are calling Popovich the greatest coach ever possibly for saving his athletes for when it matters. So when he does it he's a genius and when Bron does it it's offensive?
That is exactly it. When the coach is managing his players with the big picture in mind it's quite different.

Vee-Rex
11-08-2015, 11:40 PM
That is exactly it. When the coach is managing his players with the big picture in mind it's quite different.

Eh, playstyle is a factor too.

Curry is capable of doing it all. Elite finisher, shooter, dribbler, passer. Yet I guarantee he's being coached to not kill himself driving hard into the paint all the time just 2 weeks into the regular season too. Dude can just blaze and still put up crazy numbers videogame-style.

Lebron is almost 31, has a team with 2 other all-star talents, and is in a weaker conference. There's absolutely no reason he should be trying to put up 40 points in a regular season game. His way of putting up 40 involves attacking the paint which increases fatigue and injury chance. Many experts/analysts/GMs have said that the Cavs most important issue right now is remaining healthy. That's all there is to it.

Curry is making noise when it comes to best in the world for sure.

nastynice
11-08-2015, 11:50 PM
I'll say this regarding Curry and Lebron, last year in the finals you could tell by his body language, when James was on d he wanted absolutely nothing to do with Curry.

Maybe its the first step in the torch passing, I don't know. What I do know is that Curry needs to do it (be the better player) for more than just one season before we can start saying its been passed.

lol, also, everyone forgot about KD. Let's see where he places himself in that top 3 now that he's healthy again.

Allphakenny1
11-09-2015, 12:00 AM
you act as if he gets a pass. No, he doesn't. I will take him come playoffs over those other guys that balled out all year, while his old *** paced himself to save it for when it matters.

The problem is that some players have to play hard all year to make it to the playoffs while LeBron can just coast. Then when a player is absolutely exhausted, LeBron is well rested and can dominate. I understand that this is what the NBA is, but when comparing player to player, it is an unfair advantage towards LeBron. If we just ignore the regular season and only look at playoffs, then we are also not seeing the whole picture as if we just looked at the regular season and ignored playoff success. They are both important when comparing players success.

nastynice
11-09-2015, 12:40 AM
I think it's dumb to hate on lebron for coasting. If he was on any of our team, we'd probably give a crap about the eeh season and just want him at his best for the playoffs.

Having said that, I also understand why it can be held against him when discussing who the best player is, obviously if others are doing it all year plus playoffs vs him just playoffs, that's gotta hold some kinda weight to it. How much, I don't know

Nikeman
11-09-2015, 02:46 AM
Threads like these crack me up. Did we forget the NBA finals? LeBron's 35+ 10+ 9+ stat-line for the SERIES? The dude who single handedly kept the Cavs competitive against Curry and the Warriors without half his team? The dude who lost and almost walked away with finals MVP against Curry who could not even win finals MVP?

Curry is a great, great, great player, but LeBron is the best. He is coasting. Dude is putting up 24/7/7 without even trying. So yes, when LeBron wants to be he is the best player on the planet and he can do what nobody else can on the court.

Curry is amazing, but LeBron when engaged is above anyone else in the NBA, and this past June showed me that.

numba1CHANGsta
11-09-2015, 03:36 AM
I'd rather take Curry, Harden, AD, KD, Westbrook, Leonard, Butler, Lillard, Griffin, Cousins (when healthy) over LeBron right now. LeBron will still have success because of a very weak Eastern Conference and he has Love and Irving (when healthy) to help him get further in the playoffs. Only 1 of the 10 players I mentioned play in the East so that's why LeBron seems so "great" still. We would all view him differently if he played in the Western Conference.

MTar786
11-09-2015, 04:44 AM
i got durant curry and westbrook ahead of lebron currently. dont know if curry and westbrrok will slip off.. but theyre both playing great right now.. way better than bron for sure.

Sadds The Gr8
11-09-2015, 05:15 AM
Threads like these crack me up. Did we forget the NBA finals? LeBron's 35+ 10+ 9+ stat-line for the SERIES? The dude who single handedly kept the Cavs competitive against Curry and the Warriors without half his team? The dude who lost and almost walked away with finals MVP against Curry who could not even win finals MVP?

Curry is a great, great, great player, but LeBron is the best. He is coasting. Dude is putting up 24/7/7 without even trying. So yes, when LeBron wants to be he is the best player on the planet and he can do what nobody else can on the court.

Curry is amazing, but LeBron when engaged is above anyone else in the NBA, and this past June showed me that.

He shot like crap and was inefficient. His run was basically Iverson-esque. He had a ton of usage and had a great defense backing him. The amount of endurance it took to do it was impressive but he wasn't an efficient player at all

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 07:34 AM
He shot like crap and was inefficient. His run was basically Iverson-esque. He had a ton of usage and had a great defense backing him. The amount of endurance it took to do it was impressive but he wasn't an efficient player at all

We've got smart people here. YES!!! I think I may have finally found a message board to talk hoops. You're so right it was basically Iverson-esque exactly. Although I think Iverson would've done a little better and would've been more impressive to watch because he's what like 5'11 a buck 60.

valade16
11-09-2015, 11:18 AM
That is exactly it. When the coach is managing his players with the big picture in mind it's quite different.

Why can't a player manage his body with the big picture in mind?

The goal of the season is to win the championship. Not to win every game. That is a huge distinction.

If you begrudge a player for putting himself in the best position to win a championship you have misplaced priorities.

valade16
11-09-2015, 11:24 AM
He shot like crap and was inefficient. His run was basically Iverson-esque. He had a ton of usage and had a great defense backing him. The amount of endurance it took to do it was impressive but he wasn't an efficient player at all

To clarify, his scoring was inefficient. To say he wasn't an efficient player discounts every other component of basketball. He averaged 13.3 RPG and 8.8 APG that series, there is nothing inefficient about that. While Iverson's finals performance was very similar from a scoring volume and efficiency standpoint, he only averaged 5.6 RPG and 3.8 APG, so Bron had a vastly higher impact.

So he had an Iverson-esque run if Iverson's scoring was mixed with say Big O or Magic's all around play...

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 11:30 AM
To clarify, his scoring was inefficient. To say he wasn't an efficient player discounts every other component of basketball. He averaged 13.3 RPG and 8.8 APG that series, there is nothing inefficient about that. While Iverson's finals performance was very similar from a scoring volume and efficiency standpoint, he only averaged 5.6 RPG and 3.8 APG, so Bron had a vastly higher impact.

So he had an Iverson-esque run if Iverson's scoring was mixed with say Big O or Magic's all around play...

you're getting a little carried away on "stats". he played dumb. Those that really know the game could see this on pretty much every play.

Also anyone that has the ball 90% of their teams possession will incur 'stats'. Especially when they play like 46 minutes a game and are 6'8 260 and play pg and are matched up with 6'1 players most of the game.

valade16
11-09-2015, 12:05 PM
you're getting a little carried away on "stats". he played dumb. Those that really know the game could see this on pretty much every play.

Also anyone that has the ball 90% of their teams possession will incur 'stats'. Especially when they play like 46 minutes a game and are 6'8 260 and play pg and are matched up with 6'1 players most of the game.

Can you elaborate on "played dumb". What does that mean? I also reject the idea that "those that know the game could see this" because you've given me no credentials or reason to believe you "know the game" to a greater degree than myself (or anyone else on this site).

In fact, you saying he was matched up against 6'1" PGs most of the game leads me to believe you neither watched the series or have a deeper knowledge of the game as he was most often matched up against Iggy...

Sadds The Gr8
11-09-2015, 12:38 PM
To clarify, his scoring was inefficient. To say he wasn't an efficient player discounts every other component of basketball. He averaged 13.3 RPG and 8.8 APG that series, there is nothing inefficient about that. While Iverson's finals performance was very similar from a scoring volume and efficiency standpoint, he only averaged 5.6 RPG and 3.8 APG, so Bron had a vastly higher impact.

So he had an Iverson-esque run if Iverson's scoring was mixed with say Big O or Magic's all around play...
Fine but remember he was also bad defensively

KnicksorBust
11-09-2015, 12:53 PM
I think it's dumb to hate on lebron for coasting. If he was on any of our team, we'd probably give a crap about the eeh season and just want him at his best for the playoffs.

Having said that, I also understand why it can be held against him when discussing who the best player is, obviously if others are doing it all year plus playoffs vs him just playoffs, that's gotta hold some kinda weight to it. How much, I don't know


Threads like these crack me up. Did we forget the NBA finals? LeBron's 35+ 10+ 9+ stat-line for the SERIES? The dude who single handedly kept the Cavs competitive against Curry and the Warriors without half his team? The dude who lost and almost walked away with finals MVP against Curry who could not even win finals MVP?

Curry is a great, great, great player, but LeBron is the best. He is coasting. Dude is putting up 24/7/7 without even trying. So yes, when LeBron wants to be he is the best player on the planet and he can do what nobody else can on the court.

Curry is amazing, but LeBron when engaged is above anyone else in the NBA, and this past June showed me that.

This came up on multiple posts but these were the two most recent. LeBron is "coasting."

You wanna know what real coasting looks like?

Curry played 32.7mpg last season. LeBron played 36.1mpg
Curry is playing 33.3mpg this season. LeBron is playing 34.4mpg.

In 33.3 mpg Curry is averaging 33.9ppg (more than a point per minute) for an undefeated team with a TS% of 73.3% (which would be the greatest of all-time).

When you are so good that your team is undefeated and you only have to play 33mpg. That is coasting. And that is the best player in the world.

Jamiecballer
11-09-2015, 01:17 PM
Why can't a player manage his body with the big picture in mind?

The goal of the season is to win the championship. Not to win every game. That is a huge distinction.

If you begrudge a player for putting himself in the best position to win a championship you have misplaced priorities.
I'm a fan. I don't buy tickets to the game to see someone compete at 80% effort. In fact I'm pretty sure that's universal. But ya, my priorities are messed up aren't they.

ewing
11-09-2015, 01:33 PM
I'm a fan. I don't buy tickets to the game to see someone compete at 80% effort. In fact I'm pretty sure that's universal. But ya, my priorities are messed up aren't they.



but poor LeBron needs to conserve is energy or he might just cramp.

smith&wesson
11-09-2015, 01:40 PM
NOT A TROLL THREAD


After last year and these first several games, it's clear to me that Stephen Curry is the league's best player, but the public still overwhelmingly assumes Lebron is the best player. Nobody effects the game today the way Curry does, and his numbers are staggering. We seem to hesitate when it comes to dethroning the best player in the league. We did the same thing with Kobe when Lebron was clearly better in like 08-09. Lebron is obviously still a top 3 player, but I think it's ridiculous that most basketball fans blindly crown him as the clear best player when there's certainly an argument against it. Why do we hesitate to dethrone the best player in the league? thoughts?

Offensively I would agree. I still think Lebron is the best two way player though.

In the playoffs, watching LeBron competing and basically going 1 on 5 with irving, love, shumpert, AV etc all injured still makes me think LBJ is the best currently. He was incredible.

smith&wesson
11-09-2015, 01:46 PM
He shot like crap and was inefficient. His run was basically Iverson-esque. He had a ton of usage and had a great defense backing him. The amount of endurance it took to do it was impressive but he wasn't an efficient player at all

yeah but again, who did he have to pass to ? the warriors would double and even triple up on him knowing he had no other options. The man battled hard against the deepest team in the league with 4-5 key players on his roster out.

If you flip the script, what would Curry do with out Iggy, Green, Bogut, Thompson vs a fully healthy Cavs squad ?

valade16
11-09-2015, 01:55 PM
I'm a fan. I don't buy tickets to the game to see someone compete at 80% effort. In fact I'm pretty sure that's universal. But ya, my priorities are messed up aren't they.

You can't keep track of whose priorities you mean. A fans priorities are wholly different than a players. A players are wholly different than an owners.

To us KoB's point about Curry only playing 33 MPG, you don't buy tickets to see the best player play 33 MPG either... But that happens.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 01:58 PM
yeah but again, who did he have to pass to ? the warriors would double and even triple up on him knowing he had no other options. The man battled hard against the deepest team in the league with 4-5 key players on his roster out.

If you flip the script, what would Curry do with out Iggy, Green, Bogut, Thompson vs a fully healthy Cavs squad ?

They made it to the Finals "HE HAD SOMEONE TO PASS TO" He just chose not too after Delly started stealling all the attention lebron so desires.
i saw was happened out there and even between games in the press.

The Cavs could've won that series, they had the ability to. They even had a 2-1 lead. They have poor leadership.

Sadds The Gr8
11-09-2015, 02:15 PM
yeah but again, who did he have to pass to ? the warriors would double and even triple up on him knowing he had no other options. The man battled hard against the deepest team in the league with 4-5 key players on his roster out.

If you flip the script, what would Curry do with out Iggy, Green, Bogut, Thompson vs a fully healthy Cavs squad ?
Sure he had no offensive help but even in the regular season last year he fell off when those guys were there. Hes just not the same LeBron but ppl just assume he is...that's my problem.

Chronz
11-09-2015, 02:33 PM
I'd rather take Curry, Harden, AD, KD, Westbrook, Leonard, Butler, Lillard, Griffin, Cousins (when healthy) over LeBron right now. LeBron will still have success because of a very weak Eastern Conference and he has Love and Irving (when healthy) to help him get further in the playoffs. Only 1 of the 10 players I mentioned play in the East so that's why LeBron seems so "great" still. We would all view him differently if he played in the Western Conference.


Fine but remember he was also bad defensively

Maybe so but it was his deliberate attack that slowed the Warriors transition offense. That still has value

smith&wesson
11-09-2015, 02:55 PM
They made it to the Finals "HE HAD SOMEONE TO PASS TO" He just chose not too after Delly started stealling all the attention lebron so desires.
i saw was happened out there and even between games in the press.

The Cavs could've won that series, they had the ability to. They even had a 2-1 lead. They have poor leadership.

Are we talking about the same LeBron ? one of the most unselfish super star talents the nba has seen ?

So Lebron and Delly should have won that series ? lol cmon bruh ... With out Love, Irving, Shumpert, AV its a miracle the cavs even won any games in that series.

nastynice
11-09-2015, 03:06 PM
yeah but again, who did he have to pass to ? the warriors would double and even triple up on him knowing he had no other options. The man battled hard against the deepest team in the league with 4-5 key players on his roster out.

If you flip the script, what would Curry do with out Iggy, Green, Bogut, Thompson vs a fully healthy Cavs squad ?

To be fair tho, Thompson and Bogut (two starters) were pretty much non factors. So yes, I can say with quite a bit of confidence the dubs could have been down two starters and still won

Saddletramp
11-09-2015, 03:14 PM
They made it to the Finals "HE HAD SOMEONE TO PASS TO" He just chose not too after Delly started stealling all the attention lebron so desires.
i saw was happened out there and even between games in the press.

The Cavs could've won that series, they had the ability to. They even had a 2-1 lead. They have poor leadership.


This can't be anything but a troll post/account. Or a comedy post/account.

ManRam
11-09-2015, 03:51 PM
Yeah...I don't think he is the best player, but I do think it's close and I do still think he does so many things that he might still be the guy you build around. But he's kinda coasted in the regular, he's not as readily able to survive long playoff runs and his numbers have undeniably dropped. He's got a lot of mileage. Statistically he wasn't the best player last year and certainly isn't this year...and while I do think lesser players can have better seasons than superior players, I'm not as convinced that's the case now. But it's close...and it's not a slam dunk.

Still, a helluva a run. His 5-6 year stretch of being the undisputed best player in the NBA just towers over everyone else since Jordan...and I wouldn't be surprised if it's the last time we see it.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 03:52 PM
This can't be anything but a troll post/account. Or a comedy post/account.

wow dude, chill, no reason to get offensive and start attacking your fellow basketball fans.

Did the Cavs not win game 3? That is proof they had the skill to win games in the Finals even without Irving and Love. They still have streaky shooters and big rebounders. Also game 2 was very close. The skill was there. They strategy wasn't. Blame it on the coach or someone, but the strategy wasn't there.

Also James telling the media they're going to win because of him, Isn't exactly sending confidence to his team mates that hear that.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 03:59 PM
Yeah...I don't think he is the best player, but I do think it's close and I do still think he does so many things that he might still be the guy you build around. But he's kinda coasted in the regular, he's not as readily able to survive long playoff runs and his numbers have undeniably dropped. He's got a lot of mileage. Statistically he wasn't the best player last year and certainly isn't this year...and while I do think lesser players can have better seasons than superior players, I'm not as convinced that's the case now. But it's close...and it's not a slam dunk.

Still, a helluva a run. His 5-6 year stretch of being the undisputed best player in the NBA just towers over everyone else since Jordan...and I wouldn't be surprised if it's the last time we see it.

How did Duncan beat him convincingly with just a young unproven Leonard, an older Parker ready to retire Ginobili?

While James had prime Wade (or atleast much younger than Parker and Ginobili, still averaging like 20 ppg even to this day without breaking a sweat) and a Prime Bosh with an aging HOF Ray Allen.

Also how did Dirk Nowitzki beat him in that 6 year stretch with just Terry and a 37 year old Kidd?

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 04:03 PM
Since defense is what wins Championships it's clear that Duncan and Garnett are better come Finals time than lebron. That is a fact if defense is infact what wins Championships So really lebron was just a "high stats guy" that couldn't win the big game. Much like Peyton Manning.

valade16
11-09-2015, 04:33 PM
AirPippen33 should change his name to "I hate LeBron James" because every post thus far has been an attempt to denigrate LeBron.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 04:42 PM
AirPippen33 should change his name to "I hate LeBron James" because every post thus far has been an attempt to denigrate LeBron.

Haha, No it hasn't. I've made post about top 22, I've made post about Chris Paul, i've made post about the Lakers draft choice.

I like facts not conjecture.

Also why do you attack me. Is it because I debate about basketball so well and beat you soundly. Everyone knows that if you take Rookie Garnett and Rookie James every GM would take the 6'11 Defensive and offensive player. He's 6'11 with game. Yes Lebron can do some things but he's just a guard that doesn't defend the rim and protect the rim, and he's not exceptional enough at being a guard or being clutch to offset a dominant post player. nor can he dominate around the rim.

Every GM is going to take Kevin Garnett over James.

Just saying.

ewing
11-09-2015, 04:50 PM
How did Duncan beat him convincingly with just a young unproven Leonard, an older Parker ready to retire Ginobili?

While James had prime Wade (or atleast much younger than Parker and Ginobili, still averaging like 20 ppg even to this day without breaking a sweat) and a Prime Bosh with an aging HOF Ray Allen.

Also how did Dirk Nowitzki beat him in that 6 year stretch with just Terry and a 37 year old Kidd?


Dude Bron coast during the regular season or he would have Wilt stats and his teammates let him down in the playoffs. He the tragic hero of PSD folklore

valade16
11-09-2015, 04:57 PM
Haha, No it hasn't. I've made post about top 22, I've made post about Chris Paul, i've made post about the Lakers draft choice.

I like facts not conjecture.

Also why do you attack me. Is it because I debate about basketball so well and beat you soundly. Everyone knows that if you take Rookie Garnett and Rookie James every GM would take the 6'11 Defensive and offensive player. He's 6'11 with game. Yes Lebron can do some things much like Drexler could but he's just a guard that doesn't defend the rim and protect the rim. nor can he dominate around the rim.

Every GM is going to take Kevin Garnett over James.

Just saying.

First bolded: No you don't like facts, and you prove it with this post being factually incorrect a number of times. First, Bron is a forward, not a guard. Second, 'take the defensive and offensive player'? Bron was better than Garnett on offense. Your justification for this was it was smoke and mirrors because he took more shots than Garnett but factually he was also more efficient than KG...

And this is the first year in like the last 5-6 where the GMs of the league actually voted someone else first in the "who would they want to build a franchise around" poll they do yearly. So most NBA GMs were taking Bron over the field during his prime.

Contrary to your claim you rely on facts not conjecture, you've dismissed every fact brought in opposition to your argument.

You discounting all the advanced stats Jeffy showed, you discounted the PPG/efficiency stats I've shown. The only stats you've referenced are wins (where Bron had 2 titles to KG's 1) and Rebounds.

I understand you hate Bron and have a hard on for KG, but that is the only thing you've proven since you certainly haven't proved KG was better than Bron...

numba1CHANGsta
11-09-2015, 05:00 PM
LeBron is just smart because he stayed in the East where there's hardly any competition so he knows he has a better chance of winning

Name me 10 players that are around the same the value as LeBron right now in the East and then name me 10 players from the West and you'll see the unbalanced of talent

Jamiecballer
11-09-2015, 05:01 PM
You can't keep track of whose priorities you mean. A fans priorities are wholly different than a players. A players are wholly different than an owners.

To us KoB's point about Curry only playing 33 MPG, you don't buy tickets to see the best player play 33 MPG either... But that happens.
The players priority should be to compete first for the fans in the arena, and for himself. I don't have much respect for the player who isnt leaving it on the floor every night. And I don't think you should either.

valade16
11-09-2015, 05:07 PM
The players priority should be to compete first for the fans in the arena, and for himself. I don't have much respect for the player who isnt leaving it on the floor every night. And I don't think you should either.

Just curious, do you criticize Hakeem/Shaq/Kareem for the same thibg? All have admitted they saved themselves for the playoffs. Hakeem told Kenny Smith in Houston he only tries "4 to 5 times a year" (contextually when he had to face other premier C's like Shaq/D-Rob, etc.).

And I don't care what you respect, history respects champions. It's a fact.

AI left it all on the floor far more than Shaq ever did, wanna guess which one history respects more?

ewing
11-09-2015, 05:12 PM
Just curious, do you criticize Hakeem/Shaq/Kareem for the same thibg? All have admitted they saved themselves for the playoffs. Hakeem told Kenny Smith in Houston he only tries "4 to 5 times a year" (contextually when he had to face other premier C's like Shaq/D-Rob, etc.).

And I don't care what you respect, history respects champions. It's a fact.

AI left it all on the floor far more than Shaq ever did, wanna guess which one history respects more?


A lot of people criticized Shaq when he dogged it and if your motivation is your legacy you're a tool. I always hope a guy plays for the love of competition first, the money and chicks second, and that other **** 3rd or not at all. I'm not really buying this LeBron is coasting nonsense either. Bron is playing hard. He just isn't as good as he once was.

AirPippen33
11-09-2015, 05:19 PM
LeBron is just smart because he stayed in the East where there's hardly any competition so he knows he has a better chance of winning

Name me 10 players that are around the same the value as LeBron right now in the East and then name me 10 players from the West and you'll see the unbalanced of talent

J. Butler but that is just this season. He's new on the scene
K. Love is pretty good
thats it for the East


now for the West

Leonard
Curry
Durant
Westbrook
Howard
Harden
Griffin
Paul
Duncan
D. Green
Lillard
etc
etc


Lets take 2006 now

East
Old Ben Wallace
Howard
Kidd was pretty good
Pierce
Wade

that is it.

Now for the West
Garnett
Dirk
Nash
Amare
Anthony
Duncan
Parker
Paul
Kobe
Pau
Marion
Brand
etc
etc

We can see how much greater the West is.

Jamiecballer
11-09-2015, 05:20 PM
Just curious, do you criticize Hakeem/Shaq/Kareem for the same thibg? All have admitted they saved themselves for the playoffs. Hakeem told Kenny Smith in Houston he only tries "4 to 5 times a year" (contextually when he had to face other premier C's like Shaq/D-Rob, etc.).

And I don't care what you respect, history respects champions. It's a fact.

AI left it all on the floor far more than Shaq ever did, wanna guess which one history respects more?
You are confusing personal respect with respecting accomplishments. And yes, my opinion is the same of any athlete that cheats themselves and the paying fans. Every one.

valade16
11-09-2015, 05:41 PM
You are confusing personal respect with respecting accomplishments. And yes, my opinion is the same of any athlete that cheats themselves and the paying fans. Every one.

So you do not have personal respect for Hakeem? Just trying to pinpoint your beliefs.

I also want to call everyone who gets mad at a player not 'leaving it all on the floor' a hypocrite. We all slack on some days in our jobs. Not one of us goes 110% every day (if you say you do you're a liar). It doesn't make us bad workers or mean we don't care, it's just we all realize it's impossible to maintain that level.

It is no different here. Nowhere on your ticket stub does it guarantee to see players at their best, or heck even their best players.

Going back to coach Pop, he benched his stars in a primetime game vs. Miami, they all could have easily played.

We can see this in the NFL with QBs as well. They oftentimes throw the ball out or slide before a first down. They aren't 'leaving it all on the field'. Do you have personal respect for any of them?

Chronz
11-09-2015, 07:05 PM
Lol at personal respect. These guys know their bodies better than us and no one should prioritize rs above the post season. You think shaq wants irrelevant respect or championship glory

Chronz
11-09-2015, 07:08 PM
You are confusing personal respect with respecting accomplishments. And yes, my opinion is the same of any athlete that cheats themselves and the paying fans. Every one.

Ummm that's beyond subjective. Some of us respect those who can pace themselves and give their teams the best chance at ultimate glory. Ur stance would make sense if we valued the regular season above all else. What if someone has a bad back, should they go full bore all the time or simply when it counts most

KnicksorBust
11-09-2015, 07:10 PM
Lol at personal respect. These guys know their bodies better than us and no one should prioritize rs above the post season. You think shaq wants irrelevant respect or championship glory

Don't feel like going back sorry if u already said... who you got here?

Jamiecballer
11-09-2015, 08:21 PM
Where did this false belief come from that you have to take plays off or nights off to play at your best in the postseason?

Jamiecballer
11-09-2015, 08:31 PM
Ummm that's beyond subjective. Some of us respect those who can pace themselves and give their teams the best chance at ultimate glory. Ur stance would make sense if we valued the regular season above all else. What if someone has a bad back, should they go full bore all the time or simply when it counts most
The way you are talking it sounds like you are talking as a fan of the team whose player we are talking about. What about neutral players who have no affiliation to your team? You respect guys who aren't trying that hard all season and just turn it on in May?

With regards to the back issue, its up to the coaching staff to determine who is healthy enough to play 100%. If you are able to pass that, then yes you should be putting out max effort for the team IMO.

Vee-Rex
11-09-2015, 10:52 PM
People sleep so hard on Paul George. He's looking so good right now. Best 2-way player.

kdspurman
11-10-2015, 12:55 AM
People sleep so hard on Paul George. He's looking so good right now. Best 2-way player.

Between him and Kawhi for sure. Their numbers have been very similar early on this season.

Happy for George though, that injury was so tough to watch.

IKnowHoops
11-10-2015, 12:57 AM
Like when ppl say "I'll take X player in regular season, but in the playoffs give me Lebron" when Lebron has been "conserving" himself for playoffs while everyone else balls so hard every game. Just read throughout this thread, so many ppl refer to Lebron not taking regular season serious, but picks it up during the regular season. Yeah he's only able to pick it up because he's been half assing it all year

I think your making the point as to why Lebron is the better player. Hebron can conserve and still be more productive than guys like Curry and Harden during the regular season, and then completely outclass them in the playoffs. At this point in his career, it is his duty to conserve himself for the unavoidable playoff run. The difference you see between Bron and everyone else in the playoffs last year is the true difference in what he can do and what others can.

IKnowHoops
11-10-2015, 01:22 AM
They made it to the Finals "HE HAD SOMEONE TO PASS TO" He just chose not too after Delly started stealling all the attention lebron so desires.
i saw was happened out there and even between games in the press.

The Cavs could've won that series, they had the ability to. They even had a 2-1 lead. They have poor leadership.


wow dude, chill, no reason to get offensive and start attacking your fellow basketball fans.

Did the Cavs not win game 3? That is proof they had the skill to win games in the Finals even without Irving and Love. They still have streaky shooters and big rebounders. Also game 2 was very close. The skill was there. They strategy wasn't. Blame it on the coach or someone, but the strategy wasn't there.

Also James telling the media they're going to win because of him, Isn't exactly sending confidence to his team mates that hear that.


How did Duncan beat him convincingly with just a young unproven Leonard, an older Parker ready to retire Ginobili?

While James had prime Wade (or atleast much younger than Parker and Ginobili, still averaging like 20 ppg even to this day without breaking a sweat) and a Prime Bosh with an aging HOF Ray Allen.

Also how did Dirk Nowitzki beat him in that 6 year stretch with just Terry and a 37 year old Kidd?


Since defense is what wins Championships it's clear that Duncan and Garnett are better come Finals time than lebron. That is a fact if defense is infact what wins Championships So really lebron was just a "high stats guy" that couldn't win the big game. Much like Peyton Manning.


Haha, No it hasn't. I've made post about top 22, I've made post about Chris Paul, i've made post about the Lakers draft choice.

I like facts not conjecture.

Also why do you attack me. Is it because I debate about basketball so well and beat you soundly. Everyone knows that if you take Rookie Garnett and Rookie James every GM would take the 6'11 Defensive and offensive player. He's 6'11 with game. Yes Lebron can do some things but he's just a guard that doesn't defend the rim and protect the rim, and he's not exceptional enough at being a guard or being clutch to offset a dominant post player. nor can he dominate around the rim.

Every GM is going to take Kevin Garnett over James.

Just saying.

Worst stuff I've read on PSD since Amosler. Is this Amosler letting loose his true feelings, not holding back his true form in any way, thinking he has the cover of a well thought out disguise, only to be betrayed and given up by his mentality.

tredigs
11-10-2015, 02:45 AM
Worst stuff I've read on PSD since Amosler. Is this Amosler letting loose his true feelings, not holding back his true form in any way, thinking he has the cover of a well thought out disguise, only to be betrayed and given up by his mentality.

He's biased and imo ultimately off base, but also smarter than you. Interesting challenge if you choose to accept it.

IKnowHoops
11-10-2015, 05:11 AM
What makes you think he's smarter than me?

LOLOL...No GM takes KG over Lebron

Why go on after that

More-Than-Most
11-10-2015, 05:11 AM
He's biased and imo ultimately off base, but also smarter than you. Interesting challenge if you choose to accept it.

all of those posts scream the exact opposite of what you are saying lol

AirPippen33
11-10-2015, 09:10 AM
Stop judging me, just because you don't agree with me on a basketball topic. You think a guy shooting 39% through a 6 game Finals is the best in the league. 45% is AVERAGE. Not too mention he was probably averaging about 5 turnovers a game.

Not to mention the Warriors even spotted him a 2-1 lead in the series and he still LOST

he is 2-4 in the Finals. That is his Finals record. The only reason he's made 6 Finals is because he plays in the East his entire career. Then he up and runs to D. Wade an Established top 2-3 player in the NBA. Whild Chris Bosh tags along. Then after getting destroyed in the 14 Finals he quits on Miami and joins with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving of which he both ruined their careers and after K Love was an established top 7 player in the NBA and Irving a top 15 player in the NBA.

The FACTS that can NOT be disputed

39.9% in the Finals shooting during 2015
2-4 in Finals series for his career
Joined up with All NBA Talent in the last 5-6 years.

Hawkeye15
11-10-2015, 07:01 PM
Stop judging me, just because you don't agree with me on a basketball topic. You think a guy shooting 39% through a 6 game Finals is the best in the league. 45% is AVERAGE. Not too mention he was probably averaging about 5 turnovers a game.

Not to mention the Warriors even spotted him a 2-1 lead in the series and he still LOST

he is 2-4 in the Finals. That is his Finals record. The only reason he's made 6 Finals is because he plays in the East his entire career. Then he up and runs to D. Wade an Established top 2-3 player in the NBA. Whild Chris Bosh tags along. Then after getting destroyed in the 14 Finals he quits on Miami and joins with Kevin Love and Kyrie Irving of which he both ruined their careers and after K Love was an established top 7 player in the NBA and Irving a top 15 player in the NBA.

The FACTS that can NOT be disputed

39.9% in the Finals shooting during 2015
2-4 in Finals series for his career
Joined up with All NBA Talent in the last 5-6 years.

considering his usage and responsibility level, and how important he was to nearly every basket the Cavs made, he was great in the finals.

Ask yourself, would you rather have Delly, Smith, Mosgov, and Tristan as your supporting cast? Or Iggy, Green, Thompson, Lee, and Bogut?

meh, per usual LeBron talk is boring me. I don't even know why I care anymore. He has won titles, I could care less if he succeeds or fails now, his haters have at least cooled off the A-Rod level hate he was getting for no apparent reason, the only reason I started to pull for him to begin with

tredigs
11-10-2015, 07:17 PM
What makes you think he's smarter than me?

LOLOL...No GM takes KG over Lebron

Why go on after that

I was just goating you, he was a troll.

Saddletramp
11-10-2015, 08:23 PM
considering his usage and responsibility level, and how important he was to nearly every basket the Cavs made, he was great in the finals.

Ask yourself, would you rather have Delly, Smith, Mosgov, and Tristan as your supporting cast? Or Iggy, Green, Thompson, Lee, and Bogut?

Don't wait for a response, he's already banned.


meh, per usual LeBron talk is boring me. I don't even know why I care anymore. He has won titles, I could care less if he succeeds or fails now, his haters have at least cooled off the A-Rod level hate he was getting for no apparent reason, the only reason I started to pull for him to begin with

Same here. I no longer care if he wins anymore, I'm just not a fan of Dan Gilbert winning.

ziglur
11-10-2015, 09:19 PM
This is a reasonable opinion even tho disagree. I think LBJ is easier to stop than curry since he's now a horrific shooter again. His defense isn't elite anymore which is the thing that would edge him out over curry. I can't buy the resting for the playoffs excuse for him because in the playoffs last year he also slacked on defense. Curry is clearly the better offensive player now and I don't know if LBJ has the defense anymore to put him on top.

James can play a game and not hit a 3 but he can still get , assist, Rebs and steals and blocks and defend all positions and can take over a game without hitting 3s. Ive seen the last 2 Warriors games Curry hasnt shot the 3 well and someone else has to take over. If hes not shooting well he should get more assists but he doesnt. Hes mainly a shooter and James has a much better all around game. I dont think all around Curry isnt in the top ten!

Chronz
11-10-2015, 11:01 PM
The way you are talking it sounds like you are talking as a fan of the team whose player we are talking about. What about neutral players who have no affiliation to your team? You respect guys who aren't trying that hard all season and just turn it on in May?

With regards to the back issue, its up to the coaching staff to determine who is healthy enough to play 100%. If you are able to pass that, then yes you should be putting out max effort for the team IMO.

I'm a fan of the NBA so I empathise with their situation. There's a difference between pacing and not trying. Why go at ur max all the time it it's more likely to hurt your team? I don't see why it's even up for debate when those regular season victories aren't remembered more fondly than a run for a title.

I don't agree with ur 2nd opinion sounds like you don't know the precarious situation having a balky back puts you in but hey some of us care about regular season others care about the post season. It's up to you to decide what's the bigger picture

Allphakenny1
11-10-2015, 11:04 PM
James can play a game and not hit a 3 but he can still get , assist, Rebs and steals and blocks and defend all positions and can take over a game without hitting 3s. Ive seen the last 2 Warriors games Curry hasnt shot the 3 well and someone else has to take over. If hes not shooting well he should get more assists but he doesnt. Hes mainly a shooter and James has a much better all around game. I dont think all around Curry isnt in the top ten!

While I agree LeBron is still the best player, I think you are vastly underrating Curry. He is a very good rebounder for a PG. He most likely draws more attention from a defense than any other player in the league, including LeBron, Which helps his teammates immensely. He is on such a great passing team that it vastly hurts his assist numbers. Players like Lebron and Westbrook and so many more have inflated assist numbers because they pass the ball and the player shoots it. If the player makes it they get the assist, if the player misses they do not. Curry makes the great pass and his teammate passes up a good shot to pass to a teammate with an even better shot. If the hockey assist counted, Curry would be one of the best passers in the game.

Curry has shot the 3 ball poorly the last two games and has had a huge impact on the game. In fact, he scored over 20 points each game and we all believe he played poorly. That should say in itself how great a player he is. Add to that that his defense has become good for his position, not average, but good, and you have to be vastly underrating Curry as an overall player.

tredigs
11-10-2015, 11:33 PM
While I agree LeBron is still the best player, I think you are vastly underrating Curry. He is a very good rebounder for a PG. He most likely draws more attention from a defense than any other player in the league, including LeBron, Which helps his teammates immensely. He is on such a great passing team that it vastly hurts his assist numbers. Players like Lebron and Westbrook and so many more have inflated assist numbers because they pass the ball and the player shoots it. If the player makes it they get the assist, if the player misses they do not. Curry makes the great pass and his teammate passes up a good shot to pass to a teammate with an even better shot. If the hockey assist counted, Curry would be one of the best passers in the game.

Curry has shot the 3 ball poorly the last two games and has had a huge impact on the game. In fact, he scored over 20 points each game and we all believe he played poorly. That should say in itself how great a player he is. Add to that that his defense has become good for his position, not average, but good, and you have to be vastly underrating Curry as an overall player.
Well hockey assists are counted, just not on ESPN.com. And yeah Curry is #2 in the NBA in hockey assists. He is one of the best passers in the game.

Lebron's amazing, but if we're going to give him a pass on being the best in the regular season due to rest for the end of the year (which is kind of a ridiculous premise to begin with. The other top 10 players in the NBA should not be dinged for all having to battle against each other in the West), then I'm going to need more than a 41/22/73 with >4 Turnover line without elite D in the playoffs from him to re anoint him #1. The gaudy box-score #'s on 42+ mpg are all well and good, but his efficiency needs to rise tremendously for me this post-season to take back the mantle as #1 if he has another regular season where he isn't a top 3 player. Pretty sure Love + Irving were not out the entire playoff run, so that's not a great excuse for his backers to hang their coat on.

Chronz
11-10-2015, 11:49 PM
While I agree LeBron is still the best player, I think you are vastly underrating Curry. He is a very good rebounder for a PG. He most likely draws more attention from a defense than any other player in the league, including LeBron, Which helps his teammates immensely. He is on such a great passing team that it vastly hurts his assist numbers. Players like Lebron and Westbrook and so many more have inflated assist numbers because they pass the ball and the player shoots it. If the player makes it they get the assist, if the player misses they do not. Curry makes the great pass and his teammate passes up a good shot to pass to a teammate with an even better shot. If the hockey assist counted, Curry would be one of the best passers in the game.

Curry has shot the 3 ball poorly the last two games and has had a huge impact on the game. In fact, he scored over 20 points each game and we all believe he played poorly. That should say in itself how great a player he is. Add to that that his defense has become good for his position, not average, but good, and you have to be vastly underrating Curry as an overall player.

It's not inflated, just different. Curry averages 2.5 hockey assists. 2nd highest in the league but RWB is still ahead. He's been that good. His passes lead to the highest percentage looks because he's always in attack mode. It's his inefficiencies offensively that hold him back

FlashBolt
11-11-2015, 01:55 AM
"LeBron plays in the East to avoid competition."

Yeah, let's send LeBron to the Grizzlies and even things up.. Would you like that you haters?

tredigs
11-11-2015, 02:02 AM
"LeBron plays in the East to avoid competition."

Yeah, let's send LeBron to the Grizzlies and even things up.. Would you like that you haters?

Or, the non-homer/non-hater take and the reality of the situation: He plays in the East, which is a much easier basketball life than playing in the West.

Fun fact: The Warriors will travel 55+ thousand miles this year on road trips. The Cavs will travel just under 35 thousand miles. There are advantages to him being on an East team that go beyond playing a far easier schedule his entire career. "But Lebron does great against the West!". Yes, on much more aggregate rest and after facing a much easier schedule day in/day out his entire NBA life. That matters, tremendously.

FlashBolt
11-11-2015, 02:12 AM
Or, the non-homer/non-hater take and the reality of the situation: He plays in the East, which is a much easier basketball life than playing in the West.

Fun fact: The Warriors will travel 55+ thousand miles this year on road trips. The Cavs will travel just under 35 thousand miles. There are advantages to him being on an East team that go beyond playing a far easier schedule his entire career. "But Lebron does great against the West!". Yes, on much more aggregate rest and after facing a much easier schedule day in/day out his entire NBA life. That matters, tremendously.

Doesn't have a thing to do with what I said. If you're going to reply with something I never disagreed with, then I don't know why I'm even replying back. So you're not considering the extra Finals that he has to play up to but you consider the length traveled? I can come up with 5000 variables as well such as LeBron not liking the food in the East coast or how cold it can get. We can play this game ALL day. The simple fact is, East is weaker because generally, the conference with the better players are playing in the West. Give LeBron Curry's team then tell me he wouldn't dominate. Send him to the Clippers in exchange for CP3 and stick CP3 in the East. Send LeBron to the Rockets too. They would be favorites and you know it. CP3/Curry would never reach five NBA Finals straight in that weak EC but when the name LeBron comes up, everyone somehow thinks he's avoiding competition. Yeah, pretty sure he's doing that.

tredigs
11-11-2015, 02:22 AM
Doesn't have a thing to do with what I said. If you're going to reply with something I never disagreed with, then I don't know why I'm even replying back. So you're not considering the extra Finals that he has to play up to but you consider the length traveled? I can come up with 5000 variables as well such as LeBron not liking the food in the East coast or how cold it can get. We can play this game ALL day. The simple fact is, East is weaker because generally, the conference with the better players are playing in the West. Give LeBron Curry's team then tell me he wouldn't dominate. Send him to the Clippers in exchange for CP3 and stick CP3 in the East. Send LeBron to the Rockets too. They would be favorites and you know it. CP3/Curry would never reach five NBA Finals straight in that weak EC but when the name LeBron comes up, everyone somehow thinks he's avoiding competition. Yeah, pretty sure he's doing that.

Now we're just "sending" Lebron to dominant West teams? Are we taking away their best players, at least? Lol. You're ****ing hopeless.

And my comment has nothing to do with you insinuating that Lebron playing in the East is seen as an advantage? The "haters" might say he does it to avoid competition (which frankly could be true, who knows?), but the REALITY is that it is in fact an advantage, for a multitude of reasons.

His playoff minutes are well established and fully realized, I thought that was a given. Apparently not.

Jeffy25
11-11-2015, 03:23 AM
Curry needs to sustain it longer to take the crown in my opinion.

I still think Durant could take the title before the year is over.

FlashBolt
11-11-2015, 03:26 AM
Now we're just "sending" Lebron to dominant West teams? Are we taking away their best players, at least? Lol. You're ****ing hopeless.

And my comment has nothing to do with you insinuating that Lebron playing in the East is seen as an advantage? The "haters" might say he does it to avoid competition (which frankly could be true, who knows?), but the REALITY is that it is in fact an advantage, for a multitude of reasons.

His playoff minutes are well established and fully realized, I thought that was a given. Apparently not.

I'm hopeless because you use one example but ignore countless other examples that can also attribute to the various pros/cons of playing in a certain conference? I think you're the one being hopeless here. You say that because you're probably suffering from some inferiority complex (which I perceive often about you since you immediately go into insults when you quote someone with another opinion). And I did take away their best player of that respective team.. If you read properly instead of getting your testosterone elevated, you would see that. And your comment was irrelevant all around. My comment was to suggest that if you want to point fingers at LeBron for playing at the East as if he's avoiding competition, then you have to acknowledge that he would have a much better team in the West overall. The main reason James couldn't win in Cleveland initially was because a lack of a team. So for seven seasons, he had the individual capability but not the team. Will he get to six NBA Finals in the West? With a better team, maybe or maybe not. But to ignore a completely plausible argument as to what would happen if he did play in the West is what irritates me. You basically pointed out things I agreed with which is why I said it has nothing to do with my argument. I know East has been severely weak. When you play vs Boston Celtics and another team plays vs the Spurs, there's no question about it. I never refuted that.

tredigs
11-11-2015, 04:10 AM
I'm hopeless because you use one example but ignore countless other examples that can also attribute to the various pros/cons of playing in a certain conference? I think you're the one being hopeless here. You say that because you're probably suffering from some inferiority complex (which I perceive often about you since you immediately go into insults when you quote someone with another opinion). And I did take away their best player of that respective team.. If you read properly instead of getting your testosterone elevated, you would see that. And your comment was irrelevant all around. My comment was to suggest that if you want to point fingers at LeBron for playing at the East as if he's avoiding competition, then you have to acknowledge that he would have a much better team in the West overall. The main reason James couldn't win in Cleveland initially was because a lack of a team. So for seven seasons, he had the individual capability but not the team. Will he get to six NBA Finals in the West? With a better team, maybe or maybe not. But to ignore a completely plausible argument as to what would happen if he did play in the West is what irritates me. You basically pointed out things I agreed with which is why I said it has nothing to do with my argument. I know East has been severely weak. When you play vs Boston Celtics and another team plays vs the Spurs, there's no question about it. I never refuted that.
You were clear about taking away maybe the 2nd best player on one of the teams. *High five*. But Lebron on the Warriors in place of Curry? No, I'm very confident they'd be a worse team. An irrelevant argument anyway.

I don't think there are many people that say he plays in the East to "avoid competition", and I concurrently don't think that should blind us from the fact that playing in the East does in fact cause him to "avoid competition". And like I elaborated on, it's not just the other teams, it's a flat out easier NBA life travel wise to play in the East than it is in the West. It's why Phil Jackson said a West Coast team could never beat his Bulls 72 win record; said the travel was too much to handle on West coast teams.

FlashBolt
11-11-2015, 04:16 AM
You were clear about taking away maybe the 2nd best player on one of the teams. *High five*. But Lebron on the Warriors in place of Curry? No, I'm very confident they'd be a worse team. An irrelevant argument anyway. I don't think there are many people that say he plays in the East to "avoid competition", and I concurrently don't think that should blind us from the fact that playing in the East does in fact cause him to "avoid competition". And like I elaborated on, it's not just the other teams, it's a flat out easier NBA life travel wise to play in the East than it is in the West. It's why Phil Jackson said a West Coast team could never beat his Bulls 72 win record; said the travel was too much to handle on West coast teams.

I didn't think I had to repeat myself with every roster. The example stands for most WC teams. Take out your best player and that team will probably have a better shot at winning (not as true now but definitely the case before). Of course Curry > LeBron for the Warriors right now but would they dominate and still be the best team? Probably. I agree with your reasoning in regards to East being weaker but there's zero reason to suggest he's been dodging competition. He's realistically had one ticket to go to the West (back in 2010's FA). His entire basketball career has been in the East because 1) He chose Miami. 2) He went back to Cleveland. Not like he had 5000 opportunities to go to the West. #2 made sense and I don't think you can fault the guy for choosing what was best for him financially and also in terms of just making things right for his career. I'm not buying the traveling crap, sorry. I can easily say he's traveling/playing more games since he's in the East = more Finals = deeper playoff runs. So let's go with something more tangible here. Weaker competition? I can easily see that. Better teams in the West = better team if LeBron is on your team. LeBron probably wouldn't have to carry a franchise as much. Send LeBron with Blake Griffin and that roster CP3 has right now. They'd make the Cavs look like a lottery team in comparison. But since of course, it's "LeBron", any team he is with gets labeled more highly.

tredigs
11-11-2015, 04:41 AM
I'll break down my stance on this very clearly for you.

#1) I do not fault him for staying in the East his entire career. I fully understand his reasons for doing so on multiple levels.

#2) I will not pretend that there are not significant advantages to staying in the East your entire career.

FlashBolt
11-11-2015, 04:43 AM
I'll break down my stance on this very clearly for you.

#1) I do not fault him for staying in the East his entire career.

#2) I will not pretend that there are not significant advantages to staying in the East your entire career.

I'll break down my stance for you very clearly:

You're just replying for the sake of it. No one ever disagreed with what you said.

Simple enough?

SteBO
11-11-2015, 07:56 AM
So then why do you keep fighting him? And why did you label him and others a "hater" just because of your perception of the FACT that he plays in a significantly weaker east?

More-Than-Most
11-11-2015, 08:14 AM
Flash has a big point... Just because he has played in the East a weaker conference shouldnt take anything away from him period because there are a ton of other variables... Again like he stated... If you take away the top player from any west team and put James on that team they are a better team period... If you take any of the top players from the west and put them on the cavs they are a worse team... There is tougher teams in the West but all of these players that are playing tougher teams also have had a ridiculous amount of help for their careers... Imagine any of curry/Durant and on down the list having to play on a team like James did when he entered the league... They would be shells of their former selves 3 years in

So yes there are advantages to playing in the East but again all these West type players that are being crowned the best have not come close to having traveled the road James has had to travel and wouldn't be as successful as they are or be able to play at the level they have played even if they did play in the weak East with the insane lack of help James has had for the majority of his career. I am not saying Tre is using this to take away anything from James but other posters... the haters if you will tend to try and use this as justification on why he has made it to as many finals or why he is the player he is which is a moronic argument.... James would have rolled through the West if he was on any of the top 6 west teams from 2008 on and you take away the wests best player on the team James would have Joined.

SteBO
11-11-2015, 08:26 AM
I still take LeBron slightly over Curry, because I tend to favor the all around game. But the weak east variable is still a more than valid counter argument, even if there are countless other factors. Also, I don't think it's a given that LBJ would've rampaged through the West. Playing OKC, GS, HOU, SAS three to four times every regular season can be very exhausting, let alone playoff series'. Not saying he couldn't pull it off, but it's not given.

KnicksorBust
11-11-2015, 09:37 AM
I still take LeBron slightly over Curry, because I tend to favor the all around game. But the weak east variable is still a more than valid counter argument, even if there are countless other factors. Also, I don't think it's a given that LBJ would've rampaged through the West. Playing OKC, GS, HOU, SAS three to four times every regular season can be very exhausting, let alone playoff series'. Not saying he couldn't pull it off, but it's not given.

But what if he was on OKC with Westbrook as his sidekick. Or on GS with Klay, Dray, Iggy,etc. Or on HOU with Dwight. Or on SAS with Kawhi, Manu, Parker. Throughout his career he has had as weak a supporting cast as anyone. He FINALLY got teammates in Wade and Bosh and made the Finals every year. LeBron has shown true talent in the way he maximizes the potential of his teams in basically every given year.

The problem for me is that Curry is now out-Broning LeBron by doing exactly the same thin I just described only at a higher level.

Yanks All Day
11-11-2015, 10:16 AM
LeBron's career stats against the West are better than his career vs. the East.

Every year, the counter to "LeBron plays in the East" is always "his team's record against the West is great."

2016 Cavs are 2-0. 1.000, but obviously early.
2015 Cavs 18-12. 0.600.
2014 Heat 20-10 0.667.
2013 Heat 25-5. 0.833.
2012 Heat 11-7. 0.611. 66 game season.
2011 Heat 20-10. 0.667.
2010 Cavs 23-7. 0.776.

You can keep going, and it doesn't change. I don't doubt the West is better. I don't doubt it's a day-in, day-out grind. But let's at least not pretend like he wouldn't be the exact same player. He plays phenomenally against the Western Conference when they match up. Because he's an all-time great. We're not talking about a Danny Granger or another marginal star for a few years. You're talking about one of the greatest of all time.

If you want to argue that Curry is currently just better than LeBron, then make that argument. But don't use conference as an excuse to bring it down. LeBron posts the same stats vs. the two different conferences, and his teams consistently beat the Western teams. All while carrying a significantly larger workload than every other player for the majority of his career. Whatever "conference advantage" LeBron gained by playing in the East is probably negated by him playing primary facilitator, defender, rebounder, and scorer his entire career. He's been the best player in the league for almost a decade, and is arguably still the best right now. He's a top 10 player to ever step on the court. Has nothing to do with conference. It's ridiculous to think otherwise just because of the conference he plays in.

Hawkeye15
11-11-2015, 10:59 AM
Or, the non-homer/non-hater take and the reality of the situation: He plays in the East, which is a much easier basketball life than playing in the West.

Fun fact: The Warriors will travel 55+ thousand miles this year on road trips. The Cavs will travel just under 35 thousand miles. There are advantages to him being on an East team that go beyond playing a far easier schedule his entire career. "But Lebron does great against the West!". Yes, on much more aggregate rest and after facing a much easier schedule day in/day out his entire NBA life. That matters, tremendously.

you don't choose who drafts you, or which teams open up the cap space to sign you. Nor where you are from. And as it's been brought up before, being out west just gives LeBron better teammates. So what's the difference?

Hawkeye15
11-11-2015, 11:01 AM
I'll break down my stance on this very clearly for you.

#1) I do not fault him for staying in the East his entire career. I fully understand his reasons for doing so on multiple levels.

#2) I will not pretend that there are not significant advantages to staying in the East your entire career.

and their are advantages to being in the west. Better players. LeBron would have been able to coast much earlier in his career most likely.

Let's say Melo goes 1, LeBron to Denver. Now what?

kdspurman
11-11-2015, 12:10 PM
I still take LeBron slightly over Curry, because I tend to favor the all around game. But the weak east variable is still a more than valid counter argument, even if there are countless other factors. Also, I don't think it's a given that LBJ would've rampaged through the West. Playing OKC, GS, HOU, SAS three to four times every regular season can be very exhausting, let alone playoff series'. Not saying he couldn't pull it off, but it's not given.

Definitely not a given. He might have a little less mileage, there's a higher chance at an early exit here and there so that could help long term. But the east being weaker is definitely a valid argument. Even with the better teammates argument, we've seen very good teams get bumped early & we've seen a key injury cost really good teams from making the playoffs at all. It's a completely different animal than the East

tredigs
11-11-2015, 12:13 PM
and their are advantages to being in the west. Better players. LeBron would have been able to coast much earlier in his career most likely.

Let's say Melo goes 1, LeBron to Denver. Now what?

Then he's on Denver and making ultimately ill-fated playoff runs versus dominant WC teams sooner rather than later? He would not be coasting earlier in his career in the West. Or ever in the West most likely. We've really only seen two teams good enough in our lifetime to have a level of "coast" mode in the regular season in this conference. 1) At various times the Spurs - by all accounts the best run sports organization in all of sports - and 2) Now the Warriors.

Playing against great teams more often and after 65% more average travel each season (the Cavs location is ideal, they travel the least of any NBA team), then having to battle true contenders in virtually every round he made it through in the playoffs? Yeah, that's not a recipe for an EC "coasting" life. It would be harder on him. A hell of a lot harder on him.

Hotone1401
11-11-2015, 12:46 PM
and their are advantages to being in the west. Better players. Lebron would have been able to coast much earlier in his career most likely.

Let's say melo goes 1, lebron to denver. Now what?

wrong.

valade16
11-11-2015, 01:15 PM
Then he's on Denver and making ultimately ill-fated playoff runs versus dominant WC teams sooner rather than later? He would not be coasting earlier in his career in the West. Or ever in the West most likely. We've really only seen two teams good enough in our lifetime to have a level of "coast" mode in the regular season in this conference. 1) At various times the Spurs - by all accounts the best run sports organization in all of sports - and 2) Now the Warriors.

Playing against great teams more often and after 65% more average travel each season (the Cavs location is ideal, they travel the least of any NBA team), then having to battle true contenders in virtually every round he made it through in the playoffs? Yeah, that's not a recipe for an EC "coasting" life. It would be harder on him. A hell of a lot harder on him.

Don't forget:

3). Kobe/Pau Lakers. They coasted frequently.

Hawkeye15
11-11-2015, 01:28 PM
Then he's on Denver and making ultimately ill-fated playoff runs versus dominant WC teams sooner rather than later? He would not be coasting earlier in his career in the West. Or ever in the West most likely. We've really only seen two teams good enough in our lifetime to have a level of "coast" mode in the regular season in this conference. 1) At various times the Spurs - by all accounts the best run sports organization in all of sports - and 2) Now the Warriors.

Playing against great teams more often and after 65% more average travel each season (the Cavs location is ideal, they travel the least of any NBA team), then having to battle true contenders in virtually every round he made it through in the playoffs? Yeah, that's not a recipe for an EC "coasting" life. It would be harder on him. A hell of a lot harder on him.

I disagree. The west simply has better players up and down, excluding the few teams run by idiots. His teammates are better out west over the duration of his career. Just like Kobe's, Duncan's, Durant's, and everyone else. Do they play tougher teams? Yep. Why is that? Because there are better players out west.

I also don't buy the travel issue today. Back in the 80's, when they flew commercial, sure. Now every team has a private jet that flies at any time, and is much more condusive to huge human beings.

Hawkeye15
11-11-2015, 01:30 PM
Don't forget:

3). Kobe/Pau Lakers. They coasted frequently.

what the hell have the Spurs been doing to years haha? If LeBron is coasting, Duncan has been sleepwalking

badbilly
11-11-2015, 01:31 PM
I am with you. Curry is the man even though PSD has him 3rd.

Just curious because I got attacked for trying to pass the torch to Curry after the Finals.... at what exact point do you think Curry took his spot?

While I am a cavs fan I agree that

1) Curry will statistically be better than bron his year. Looks like LeBron is trying to let the team run an offense for once.
2) Regular season stats don't count for everything.
3) Put Curry on the cavs last year. Do they fair as well a they did in the playoffs including the finals. No
4) It is a bit difficult measuring these two because difference in positions and body type. Lebron can still dominate a game with his physicalness but not his shooting. Curry can dominate with skill but can not impose his physicalness on teams.

I made up the word physicalness lol. Have at me.

Hawkeye15
11-11-2015, 01:39 PM
While I am a cavs fan I agree that

1) Curry will statistically be better than bron his year. Looks like LeBron is trying to let the team run an offense for once.
2) Regular season stats don't count for everything.
3) Put Curry on the cavs last year. Do they fair as well a they did in the playoffs including the finals. No
4) It is a bit difficult measuring these two because difference in positions and body type. Lebron can still dominate a game with his physicalness but not his shooting. Curry can dominate with skill but can not impose his physicalness on teams.

I made up the word physicalness lol. Have at me.

haha, there is a word already. Physicality.

But yes, Curry is at the spot where LeBron was in 2008. He still has to prove he is the games best. So he plays like he does night in, and night out, because of that. And his body can handle it. LeBron has already proven it. And his body can't handle giving 100% maximum effort for 80 games. Nobodies can after 1100 games and 5 straight finals runs.

But I still don't take any other player in a playoff game over LeBron. Not yet.

jerellh528
11-11-2015, 01:47 PM
I disagree. The west simply has better players up and down, excluding the few teams run by idiots. His teammates are better out west over the duration of his career. Just like Kobe's, Duncan's, Durant's, and everyone else. Do they play tougher teams? Yep. Why is that? Because there are better players out west.

I also don't buy the travel issue today. Back in the 80's, when they flew commercial, sure. Now every team has a private jet that flies at any time, and is much more condusive to huge human beings.

His teammates aren't the problem, he's hogged all the eastern talent since 2010. What team on the west could he be on that has a better opputunity than chillen in the east with wade, bosh, love, and Irving? Better players only count if all the good players are on one team, like lebron's out east. In the west, all the good players are spread out for the most part so there's tons more competition.

Hawkeye15
11-11-2015, 01:54 PM
His teammates aren't the problem, he's hogged all the eastern talent since 2010. What team on the west could he be on that has a better opputunity than chillen in the east with wade, bosh, love, and Irving? Better players only count if all the good players are on one team, like lebron's out east. In the west, all the good players are spread out for the most part so there's tons more competition.

no, no, missing my point. I am saying, over the duration of his career, being out west doesn't make his life any tougher. He would have consistently had more help from day 1 in all likelihood. Or at least a whole lot sooner than year 8.

Vee-Rex
11-11-2015, 02:31 PM
Wow, Flash destroying dudes in here. I have not yet seen an adequate counter-argument to his points.

Yeah, we get it. LeBron plays in the weaker East. Every anti-Bron poster slings it around like it's from the bible. Anything it takes, I guess.

However, if LeBron played in the West, he'd still be the exact player he is today. He'd might not have as many final appearances, but I bet his finals record would be better than 2-4 (he'd play a weaker East team). Maybe like 2-1 or something. AND, he'd have a better supporting cast.

kdspurman
11-11-2015, 02:31 PM
no, no, missing my point. I am saying, over the duration of his career, being out west doesn't make his life any tougher. He would have consistently had more help from day 1 in all likelihood. Or at least a whole lot sooner than year 8.

It depends what you consider tougher I guess. He may have had more help (depending on where he went), but he also may have had less playoff success than he's had in the East. No way he reaches the finals 5 straight years for example

Vee-Rex
11-11-2015, 02:33 PM
It depends what you consider tougher I guess. He may have had more help, but he also may have had less playoff success than he's had in the East. No way he reaches the finals 5 straight years for example

No, but his finals record should definitely be better. If he reaches the finals only 3 times, he'd probably be 2-1 or even 3-0 against the weaker eastern conference. Does that sound pretty fair?

Hawkeye15
11-11-2015, 02:35 PM
It depends what you consider tougher I guess. He may have had more help (depending on where he went), but he also may have had less playoff success than he's had in the East. No way he reaches the finals 5 straight years for example

We will never know, it's an opinion of mine. The argument can be used either way. People want to say if you put him in the west, he wouldn't have had as much success. Those same people neglect to agree there has simply been a lot more talent out west for the entire duration of his career. Barring 1-2 teams that always suck out west, if he goes to most teams in the west at 18, he comes up with more talented players. To me, that spells a better chance at success.

kdspurman
11-11-2015, 02:36 PM
No, but his finals record should definitely be better. If he reaches the finals only 3 times, he'd probably be 2-1 or even 3-0 against the weaker eastern conference. Does that sound pretty fair?

It should yes. It's tough as these are hypothetical's and we don't know what team he has with him, who he's facing, etc.... Even reaching the finals 3x wouldn't be a given (See CP3 for example), but I will agree if he did reach the finals 3x, his record would likely be 2-1 or 3-0 going up against the East

nastynice
11-11-2015, 02:43 PM
My only beef with lebron playing in the crappy east is that we as fans are getting robbed of so much great basketball. Lebron is greatness, and everyone love to see greatness play at the highest level. Remember how awesome it was to watch him go against the Bulls and celtics his first year in Miami? Now it's just cruise control to the finals. I'd LOVE to be able to watch him go thru Spurs, dubs, clippers, rox, grizz, blazers, mavs, just to get to the finals.

Vee-Rex
11-11-2015, 02:57 PM
My only beef with lebron playing in the crappy east is that we as fans are getting robbed of so much great basketball. Lebron is greatness, and everyone love to see greatness play at the highest level. Remember how awesome it was to watch him go against the Bulls and celtics his first year in Miami? Now it's just cruise control to the finals. I'd LOVE to be able to watch him go thru Spurs, dubs, clippers, rox, grizz, blazers, mavs, just to get to the finals.

Well said.

That's why I'm kinda low-key rooting/pushing for the Pacers to emerge as a possible contender. Paul George looks to be turning things around after a slow start.

Chronz
11-11-2015, 03:49 PM
Then he's on Denver and making ultimately ill-fated playoff runs versus dominant WC teams sooner rather than later? He would not be coasting earlier in his career in the West. Or ever in the West most likely. We've really only seen two teams good enough in our lifetime to have a level of "coast" mode in the regular season in this conference. 1) At various times the Spurs - by all accounts the best run sports organization in all of sports - and 2) Now the Warriors.

Playing against great teams more often and after 65% more average travel each season (the Cavs location is ideal, they travel the least of any NBA team), then having to battle true contenders in virtually every round he made it through in the playoffs? Yeah, that's not a recipe for an EC "coasting" life. It would be harder on him. A hell of a lot harder on him.

My favorite what if scenario. What if Memphis gets the #1 pick that year (thus allowing them to keep the pick they owed to Detroit). You give Bron Jerry ****ing West as the engineer. We were all robbed, that man would have given Bron the adequate support he needs to have a Tim Duncan esque career in terms of pacing for the long haul

valade16
11-11-2015, 04:35 PM
My favorite what if scenario. What if Memphis gets the #1 pick that year (thus allowing them to keep the pick they owed to Detroit). You give Bron Jerry ****ing West as the engineer. We were all robbed, that man would have given Bron the adequate support he needs to have a Tim Duncan esque career in terms of pacing for the long haul

LeBron walking onto a team with Pau Gasol, Jason Williams and Shane Battier with Jerry West engineering it? I think it's safe to say he'd have done very well, West or no West.

FlashBolt
11-11-2015, 05:11 PM
So then why do you keep fighting him? And why did you label him and others a "hater" just because of your perception of the FACT that he plays in a significantly weaker east?

Never called Tredigs a hater. I called the people who think he's blatantly avoiding competition a hater. Read the posts before mine. If you're going to accuse him of dodging competition, you also have to consider the alternatives. I never once said East wasn't easier -- which is why I found it pointless for him to mention it. And we're just fixated on the West right now. Why don't we talk about the countless teams in the East that had a much better roster than the Cavs but because LeBron carried them hard, everyone just ignores it? Pretty sure the Pistons had a better squad for quite some years, Bulls were always a better team overall, Heat had a better roster during Wade's championship run in 2005-06, Celtics had a better roster, Orlando had a better roster. Can we mention how these guys were never lamented for being in the East but because of LeBron, we raise the question?

superkegger
11-11-2015, 05:27 PM
My favorite what if scenario. What if Memphis gets the #1 pick that year (thus allowing them to keep the pick they owed to Detroit). You give Bron Jerry ****ing West as the engineer. We were all robbed, that man would have given Bron the adequate support he needs to have a Tim Duncan esque career in terms of pacing for the long haul

The fire in the belly is essential, otherwise you become Michael Buble - famous and meaningless.

FlashBolt
11-11-2015, 06:05 PM
Btw guys, don't forget: A top ten (some say he'll end up top five) player should and will dominate against any conference. Let's stop pretending as if LeBron wouldn't be the best as he has been for nearly seven years if he played in the West.

Jamiecballer
11-11-2015, 08:07 PM
I'm a fan of the NBA so I empathise with their situation. There's a difference between pacing and not trying. Why go at ur max all the time it it's more likely to hurt your team? I don't see why it's even up for debate when those regular season victories aren't remembered more fondly than a run for a title.

I don't agree with ur 2nd opinion sounds like you don't know the precarious situation having a balky back puts you in but hey some of us care about regular season others care about the post season. It's up to you to decide what's the bigger picture
I'm old school. The biggest picture is the game and competing. The second biggest picture is a title. coming in at a distant 3rd is a regular season win.

That's not my perspective as a fan of course. That's my perspective as a competitor, feeling like I am disrespecting the game and the people who ultimately allow me to live an outrageously luxurious lifestyle, the fan. I know from doing tons of reading on MJ that he felt that way as well.

KnicksorBust
11-11-2015, 08:07 PM
I'll break down my stance on this very clearly for you.

#1) I do not fault him for staying in the East his entire career. I fully understand his reasons for doing so on multiple levels.

#2) I will not pretend that there are not significant advantages to staying in the East your entire career.

and their are advantages to being in the west. Better players. LeBron would have been able to coast much earlier in his career most likely.

Let's say Melo goes 1, LeBron to Denver. Now what?

I completely agree. People act like the East was his gift I think that Cavs roster was his curse. Ricky Davis? Seriously? Their big move was Larry Hughes. They passed on STAT.

I challenge people to name me a West team that he wouldn't have made a contender faster than the Cavs.

SteBO
11-11-2015, 10:09 PM
Never called Tredigs a hater. I called the people who think he's blatantly avoiding competition a hater. Read the posts before mine. If you're going to accuse him of dodging competition, you also have to consider the alternatives. I never once said East wasn't easier -- which is why I found it pointless for him to mention it. And we're just fixated on the West right now. Why don't we talk about the countless teams in the East that had a much better roster than the Cavs but because LeBron carried them hard, everyone just ignores it? Pretty sure the Pistons had a better squad for quite some years, Bulls were always a better team overall, Heat had a better roster during Wade's championship run in 2005-06, Celtics had a better roster, Orlando had a better roster. Can we mention how these guys were never lamented for being in the East but because of LeBron, we raise the question?
I remember the '05-'06 Heat run like it was yesterday, and I can assure you that the East then was no walk in the park like it is now. It had 3-4 dangerous teams including Miami. Detroit was the team to go through, New Jersey was dangerous, even Chicago fielded a tough product. The style wasn't anything enticing, but it was difficult. If I had to guess, the reason the level of play in both conferences is being brought up now is because LBJ is so damn dominant, that for years not many EC teams could challenge, sans the Celtics, Bulls, and even the Pacers, though I never really respected them (and the playoffs proved me right 3 times). The West is a completely different animal, and you cannot tell me that he'd have more or maybe the same success if he had to deal w/ OKC, HOU, GS, and/or SAS in consecutive playoff rounds, not to mention other tough teams like LAC and MEM. He'd have better players sure, but it's no where near a given as the east is. This is the problem w/ nonsensical hypotheticals. Reality is, LBJ has benefitted from playing in a significantly weaker conference. There's really no debating this.

SteBO
11-11-2015, 10:13 PM
Btw guys, don't forget: A top ten (some say he'll end up top five) player should and will dominate against any conference. Let's stop pretending as if LeBron wouldn't be the best as he has been for nearly seven years if he played in the West.
I don't think his level of greatness is the discussion point here, because you're 100% on point with this. If it is, then you can ignore what I'm about to say. But from an achievement standpoint, we can't say for sure that it'd be the same. It's all hypothetical.

KnicksorBust
11-11-2015, 11:33 PM
Never called Tredigs a hater. I called the people who think he's blatantly avoiding competition a hater. Read the posts before mine. If you're going to accuse him of dodging competition, you also have to consider the alternatives. I never once said East wasn't easier -- which is why I found it pointless for him to mention it. And we're just fixated on the West right now. Why don't we talk about the countless teams in the East that had a much better roster than the Cavs but because LeBron carried them hard, everyone just ignores it? Pretty sure the Pistons had a better squad for quite some years, Bulls were always a better team overall, Heat had a better roster during Wade's championship run in 2005-06, Celtics had a better roster, Orlando had a better roster. Can we mention how these guys were never lamented for being in the East but because of LeBron, we raise the question?
I remember the '05-'06 Heat run like it was yesterday, and I can assure you that the East then was no walk in the park like it is now. It had 3-4 dangerous teams including Miami. Detroit was the team to go through, New Jersey was dangerous, even Chicago fielded a tough product. The style wasn't anything enticing, but it was difficult. If I had to guess, the reason the level of play in both conferences is being brought up now is because LBJ is so damn dominant, that for years not many EC teams could challenge, sans the Celtics, Bulls, and even the Pacers, though I never really respected them (and the playoffs proved me right 3 times). The West is a completely different animal, and you cannot tell me that he'd have more or maybe the same success if he had to deal w/ OKC, HOU, GS, and/or SAS in consecutive playoff rounds, not to mention other tough teams like LAC and MEM. He'd have better players sure, but it's no where near a given as the east is. This is the problem w/ nonsensical hypotheticals. Reality is, LBJ has benefitted from playing in a significantly weaker conference. There's really no debating this.

But it is no hypothetical to discuss how devoid of talent those Cavs rosters were in comparison to the rest of the league. He CARRIED them and made it look easy. Mo Williams was around a career 36% 3pt shooter. Goes to Cleveland starts hitting 44% of his threes. Coincidence? One of many examples. Seriously put him on a team in the West and it would be scary.

2009 would you rather play the Magic with a backcourt of Mo Williams and Delonte West or the Nuggets with Pau Gasol?

SteBO
11-12-2015, 09:02 AM
That's fine and your point is valid. I've been singing that tune ever since he left CLE the first time. But he's been fortunate to play in a weaker conference regardless...and playing in the Western Conference, even w/ better players, doesn't even guarantee a Finals appearance let alone 5 straight and multiple titles. That's all I'm saying.

Hawkeye15
11-12-2015, 10:35 AM
That's fine and your point is valid. I've been singing that tune ever since he left CLE the first time. But he's been fortunate to play in a weaker conference regardless...and playing in the Western Conference, even w/ better players, doesn't even guarantee a Finals appearance let alone 5 straight and multiple titles. That's all I'm saying.

it doesn't guarantee more finals appearances, but adding him to almost any west roster does indeed make them the favorite to see the finals. It also allows his minutes to be reduced quite a bit over his career. Meaning he is better at age 30-35 than he will be, after having to basically carry teams on his back for 10+ years.

SteBO
11-12-2015, 11:14 AM
Very true. I never looked at it that way.....even when he had a HOFer in Wade, he played a lot of minutes because Wade wasn't around all the time and delivered when necessary. LeBrons regular seasons would be less stressful individually. I still somewhat question your "favorites" part, but it's far from unfathomable.

ewing
11-12-2015, 11:49 AM
it doesn't guarantee more finals appearances, but adding him to almost any west roster does indeed make them the favorite to see the finals. It also allows his minutes to be reduced quite a bit over his career. Meaning he is better at age 30-35 than he will be, after having to basically carry teams on his back for 10+ years.


poor LeBron

Yanks All Day
11-12-2015, 12:49 PM
Very true. I never looked at it that way.....even when he had a HOFer in Wade, he played a lot of minutes because Wade wasn't around all the time and delivered when necessary. LeBrons regular seasons would be less stressful individually. I still somewhat question your "favorites" part, but it's far from unfathomable.

Exactly what I was saying earlier. Before Kyrie Irving, LeBron never played with a great, or even very good, point guard. Before Bosh, he never played with a great big man. Unless you count 95 year old Ben Wallace or Shaq. Varejao and Ilgauskas were solid, but far from studs. He never played with a guy who can consistently create offense before Dwyane Wade, and even then, Wade played 2/3 of the games due to injury and declined because of it. Before Shane Battier, LeBron never had a guy who can take the best player on the other team defensively. Mike Brown's system was "LeBron create and everyone else just help out."

LeBron, in turn, became the primary ball handler, facilitator, defender, scorer, and sometimes rebounder. He's played in 3 Olympics I believe. He's been to 5 straight NBA Finals. Essentially, he's played 5 straight years of basketball with no off time, unlike just about everyone else in the world. Outside of NBA activities, he's doing Olympics training. While playing, he's had to be the best player on every team he's played on. THAT'S wear and tear.

The conference/schedule argument just doesn't hold water against LeBron. He's done everything for every team he's ever been on. He's basically had no off time for half a decade at least. No one has EVER done that. I don't care who you bring up. Not Jordan. Not Wilt. Not Kobe. Not Magic. Not Kareem. Not Bird. Etc. LeBron carries a bigger responsibility on his team with as little off time as anyone in history. Whatever "conference advantage" the East provides is negligible compared to everything else he does basketball-wise.

If you make the argument that it's easier on the borderline stars and the role players, then that's valid. But pretending that LeBron is any less great because of his conference is absurd when you compare it to everything else. Here's one thing I can say about LeBron: At 31, he's at least in the conversation with Curry, Durant, Davis, etc. All of whom are much younger, haven't played as much over the summer, and haven't had the same work load that LeBron has had.

ewing
11-12-2015, 01:30 PM
.

Hawkeye15
11-12-2015, 01:54 PM
[/B]

poor LeBron

we get it dude

Chronz
11-12-2015, 02:21 PM
[/B]

poor LeBron

Brons teams sucked without him. Whereas a Kobe Bryant could and did see his teams win at a contention level without him for most of his chips. That's the luxury of being favored in the west. I'd take more support over an easier conference any day because the goal isn't to make the finals but winning and longevity

ewing
11-12-2015, 02:24 PM
Brons teams sucked without him. Whereas a Kobe Bryant could and did see his teams win at a contention level without him for most of his chips. That's the luxury of being favored in the west. I'd take more support over an easier conference any day because the goal isn't to make the finals but winning and longevity

reminds me of the Book of Job.

flea
11-12-2015, 02:25 PM
Lmao I've never heard as much dissing of teammates and coaches as with Lebron. It is like his fanboys have some sort of complex over his legacy. Don't hear anyone bemoaning Bird's backcourt that couldn't shoot or Jordan's frontcourt that could get abused - because they won. Also don't hear anyone bemoaning Vernon Maxwell or Sean Elliott for preventing their golden boy star from winning title after title. Hell even Kobephiles liked their role players.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
11-12-2015, 02:36 PM
Lmao I've never heard as much dissing of teammates and coaches as with Lebron. It is like his fanboys have some sort of complex over his legacy. Don't hear anyone bemoaning Bird's backcourt that couldn't shoot or Jordan's frontcourt that could get abused - because they won. Also don't hear anyone bemoaning Vernon Maxwell or Sean Elliott for preventing their golden boy star from winning title after title. Hell even Kobephiles liked their role players.

Mad Max!

FlashBolt
11-12-2015, 02:59 PM
Lmao I've never heard as much dissing of teammates and coaches as with Lebron. It is like his fanboys have some sort of complex over his legacy. Don't hear anyone bemoaning Bird's backcourt that couldn't shoot or Jordan's frontcourt that could get abused - because they won. Also don't hear anyone bemoaning Vernon Maxwell or Sean Elliott for preventing their golden boy star from winning title after title. Hell even Kobephiles liked their role players.

Lol @ you trying to compare LeBron's Cavs teammates with that of Bird's/Jordan. Go to sleep, old man. No one player in NBA history has had to do more than LeBron. Look at the facts, how many trifectas does LeBron have? More than twice what Larry had.

Trifecta = leading your team in assists/rebounds/points in one game.

No one else comes close to this. In fact, LeBron last postseason had half the amount of trifectas that Larry had for his entire career. No one is making stuff up here.

Jordan had two all-time great defenders (top 10), someone regarded as the GOAT rebounder, and a wing who managed to take his team to one game from the ECF and who was a 22/9/6 player. I think we all know what Bird had.. so unless you have a legitimate argument, bring it up.

nastynice
11-12-2015, 03:44 PM
Lol @ you trying to compare LeBron's Cavs teammates with that of Bird's/Jordan. Go to sleep, old man. No one player in NBA history has had to do more than LeBron. Look at the facts, how many trifectas does LeBron have? More than twice what Larry had.

Trifecta = leading your team in assists/rebounds/points in one game.

No one else comes close to this. In fact, LeBron last postseason had half the amount of trifectas that Larry had for his entire career. No one is making stuff up here.

Jordan had two all-time great defenders (top 10), someone regarded as the GOAT rebounder, and a wing who managed to take his team to one game from the ECF and who was a 22/9/6 player. I think we all know what Bird had.. so unless you have a legitimate argument, bring it up.

I fully agree that it is a big tragedy that lebron happened to be drafted to a team with such an incompetent FO, but at the same time, how much of it can be put on lebron? You know that saying "he makes his teammates around him better", but he gets a top 10 player (at the time) in Bosh on his team and he becomes a nobody. Maybe lebron's just too dominant, but he doesn't know how to play with other superstars. Even with Wade, whenever it was Wade's turn to take over, Lebron would just sit on the sideline basically. Its like he never properly learned how to play WITH a team.

Compare to a player like Curry, how often do the dubs have players standing on the court ice cold, and just ask them to take a shot at moments notice? Curry gets his guys in rhythm, he even force feeds the ball to some players when they have it going on, but he doesn't pass the ball go into shell mode, he's always moving, he's always a factor on the court, he's always controlling the court even if the ball isn't in his hands. Thats a great skill to have, one that lebron doesn't seem to have, which makes it so that most of the workload falls on him.

Even with Irving, he'll get him the ball and just kinda sit back and watch. He's not actively making sure the defense has to account for him even if he's on the other side of the court. This is something theres no stat for, but has a major impact on the game.

ewing
11-12-2015, 03:54 PM
Dude's got worse luck than Charlie Brown

valade16
11-12-2015, 03:57 PM
Lmao I've never heard as much dissing of teammates and coaches as with Lebron. It is like his fanboys have some sort of complex over his legacy. Don't hear anyone bemoaning Bird's backcourt that couldn't shoot or Jordan's frontcourt that could get abused - because they won. Also don't hear anyone bemoaning Vernon Maxwell or Sean Elliott for preventing their golden boy star from winning title after title. Hell even Kobephiles liked their role players.

I think the primary difference is that role players are all LeBron ever had.

Nobody bemoans Bird's backcourt because he had McHale, Parish, DJ and Tiny. Nobody bemoaned Jordan's frontcourt because he had Scottie and Dennis. Nobody bemoans Kobe's role players because he had Shaq, Pau, and Bynum.

Well actually that last one isn't true. Kobephiles did bemoan Kobe's role players, the very instant Kobe had no other stars around him. If you don't think Kobephiles complain about that, ask them why Kobe couldn't win in 05-06...

valade16
11-12-2015, 03:58 PM
I'm curious, does the same treatment get applied to Wilt? If I were to say Wilt Chamberlain is overrated because he only won 2 titles what's the difference between that and Bron?

What if I were to say Ewing sucked because he had 0 titles?

Hawkeye15
11-12-2015, 04:02 PM
Dude's got worse luck the Charlie Brown

let's not get ahead of ourselves

flea
11-12-2015, 04:19 PM
I think the primary difference is that role players are all LeBron ever had.

Nobody bemoans Bird's backcourt because he had McHale, Parish, DJ and Tiny. Nobody bemoaned Jordan's frontcourt because he had Scottie and Dennis. Nobody bemoans Kobe's role players because he had Shaq, Pau, and Bynum.

Well actually that last one isn't true. Kobephiles did bemoan Kobe's role players, the very instant Kobe had no other stars around him. If you don't think Kobephiles complain about that, ask them why Kobe couldn't win in 05-06...

Bird did play with a very good team, some say the best team of all time in 86. McHale was pretty much a 6th man role player though until 1986, and for half Bird's prime he had pretty much role players whose names we remember because they played with Bird. Parish was a nice center for anyone to have, but so was Big Z. The difference between the two in prime was not huge - though Parish definitely had a better career. Parish was a good (not great) defender though could get pushed around, and a solid but not remarkable post-up threat. Big Z was a jumpshooting big (mandatory for Lebronball) and a good (not great) defender/rim protector.

Take a look at these lines from per 100 possession stats in playoffs that span the Celtics 4 straight Finals (84-87) and the Cavs run with Lebron (06-09). 83 games for Parish, 60 for Big Z:

Parish: 21.8/13.3/1.8 on 50.2% shooting and 2.3 blocks 109/107 O/D ratings
Ilgauskas: 21.8/14.9/2 on 47.1% shooting and 2.2 blocks 108/101 O/D ratings

Big Z was underrated at the time, and now he's vastly underrated by Lebron fans who want to make it seem like he was guarding 5 positions at elite levels while doing everything on offense. Depending on who you talk to, Kenny Smith and Jason Terry were great secondary scorers (I've even had some posters straightfaced tell me they were stars) but Mo Williams was trash, utter garbage. It's just hilarious when you actually parse what these people believe.

I've said before, one of the main things Jordan had was his 2nd best player was almost his age which kept their prime windows coinciding. Most players never get that.

valade16
11-12-2015, 04:39 PM
Bird did play with a very good team, some say the best team of all time in 86. But for half his prime he had pretty much role players whose names we remember because they played with Bird. Parish was a nice center for anyone to have, but so was Big Z. The difference between the two in prime was not huge - though Parish definitely had a better career. Parish was a good (not great) defender though could get pushed around, and a solid but not remarkable post-up threat. Big Z was a jumpshooting big (mandatory for Lebronball) and a good (not great) defender/rim protector.

Take a look at these lines from per 100 possession stats in playoffs that span the Celtics 4 straight Finals (84-87) and the Cavs run with Lebron (06-09). 83 games for Parish, 60 for Big Z:

Parish: 21.8/13.3/1.8 on 50.2% shooting and 2.3 blocks 109/107 O/D ratings
Ilgauskas: 21.8/14.9/2 on 47.1% shooting and 2.2 blocks 108/101 O/D ratings

Big Z was underrated at the time, and now he's vastly underrated by Lebron fans who want to make it seem like he was guarding 5 positions at elite levels while doing everything on offense. Depending on who you talk to, Kenny Smith and Jason Terry were great secondary scorers (I've even had some posters straightfaced tell me they were stars) but Mo Williams was trash, utter garbage. It's just hilarious when you actually parse what these people believe.

I've said before, one of the main things Jordan had was his 2nd best player was almost his age which kept their prime windows coinciding. Most players never get that.

First, are you suggesting Big Z was as good as Robert Parish. I'll grant you Big Z was a good player, but he was not as good as Robert Parish. Not to mention that your stats only show their FG%, when you look at TS% Big Z's is .522 and Parish's is .547. I'd also point out Parish was averaging 36 MPG during that span and Big Z was only averaging 30 MPG.

But even supposing I stipulated to Big Z being absolutely equal to Robert Parish for their teams during those playoff runs, that's 1 player. I hope I don't have to convince you that McHale > Gooden or Varejao and DJ > Hughes or Mo Williams (Mo was only on the team for the last season of the period you highlighted).

So what exactly are you saying? Bird's 2nd supporting teammate is tied with LeBron's 1st? That doesn't address Bird's 1st supporting teammate being vastly superior than anyone Bron had during that time and his 3rd supporting teammate being better than anyone else either.

It seems like an extreme case of cherry picking.

ewing
11-12-2015, 04:47 PM
First, are you suggesting Big Z was as good as Robert Parish. I'll grant you Big Z was a good player, but he was not as good as Robert Parish. Not to mention that your stats only show their FG%, when you look at TS% Big Z's is .522 and Parish's is .547. I'd also point out Parish was averaging 36 MPG during that span and Big Z was only averaging 30 MPG.

But even supposing I stipulated to Big Z being absolutely equal to Robert Parish for their teams during those playoff runs, that's 1 player. I hope I don't have to convince you that McHale > Gooden or Varejao and DJ > Hughes or Mo Williams (Mo was only on the team for the last season of the period you highlighted).

So what exactly are you saying? Bird's 2nd supporting teammate is tied with LeBron's 1st? That doesn't address Bird's 1st supporting teammate being vastly superior than anyone Bron had during that time and his 3rd supporting teammate being better than anyone else either.

It seems like an extreme case of cherry picking.



I think the point is the LeBron fans trash his teammates. Parish's status is elevated b/c he played with Bird. Big Z's is down graded b/c he played with Bron. Maybe its b/c Bird fans are Celtics fans and LeBron fan are soulless mercenaries :)

flea
11-12-2015, 04:54 PM
First, are you suggesting Big Z was as good as Robert Parish. I'll grant you Big Z was a good player, but he was not as good as Robert Parish. Not to mention that your stats only show their FG%, when you look at TS% Big Z's is .522 and Parish's is .547. I'd also point out Parish was averaging 36 MPG during that span and Big Z was only averaging 30 MPG.

But even supposing I stipulated to Big Z being absolutely equal to Robert Parish for their teams during those playoff runs, that's 1 player. I hope I don't have to convince you that McHale > Gooden or Varejao and DJ > Hughes or Mo Williams (Mo was only on the team for the last season of the period you highlighted).

So what exactly are you saying? Bird's 2nd supporting teammate is tied with LeBron's 1st? That doesn't address Bird's 1st supporting teammate being vastly superior than anyone Bron had during that time and his 3rd supporting teammate being better than anyone else either.

It seems like an extreme case of cherry picking.

Nah not saying Bird had a worse cast than did Lebron pre-Heat. But he walked onto a team that wasn't very good, and lucked out with the McHale/Parish trade that ended up being a huge winner. DJ was certainly a better acquisition than Larry Hughes, but Larry Hughes wasn't a scrub - he was just a slasher like Lebron forced into a 3-and-D role because Lebron isn't very good off the ball (changing this year there though, from what I've seen).

What if the Cavs had matched on Boozer? He had his shortcomings but he made a career out of a being a really good pick and pop big - imagine prime Lebron with 2 jumpshooting bigs. They could have built something there, especially had Mo Williams gotten there sooner with Wally or somehow else build a defensively competent team where Lebron is your worst shooter in the starting lineup. It's not like other stars didn't go through transition periods with their teams where the talent was lacking.

Instead, he bailed on his team, declared himself a championship player before he won any who was going to team up with 2 of the top 5 other players in his conference (effectively destroying his conference's competition), waited until the Cavs got 5 top 4 picks, and then bolted on his aging superteam in favor of a young superteam. All of that happened and Lebron has now had probably the most talented team in the league going into the 6th year. That's his legacy - deal with it.

valade16
11-12-2015, 05:11 PM
I think the point is the LeBron fans trash his teammates. Parish's status is elevated b/c he played with Bird. Big Z's is down graded b/c he played with Bron. Maybe its b/c Bird fans are Celtics fans and LeBron fan are soulless mercenaries :)

Or maybe Robert Parish is simply better than Zydrunas (he is).

Essentially what he is saying is Zydrunas Ilgauskas can give you the same rate stats on inferior efficiency and will do it for less minutes on the court. Hardly inspiring.

I don't trash LeBron's teammates. I simply keep it in perspective. During LeBron's first stint in Cleveland players on his team made an All-Star game exactly twice: Big Z once and Mo Williams once.

So his supporting casts accolades while playing in Cleveland were: 2 All-Star games.

Larry Bird's supporting casts accolades while playing in Boston are:

Combined 21 All-Star appearances
Combined 4 All-NBA team appearances
Combined 9 All-Defense team appearances
2 6th Man of the Year awards and a Finals MVP

... compared to 2 All-Star games. And before you say that's because Bird played twice as long on the Celtics as Bron on the Cavs, there is not a single season in which the combined accolades for Bird's supporting cast does not equal or exceed Bron's for his entire tenure in Cleveland.

To make this equivalent to the help LeBron got. Bird would have to not have McHale or Parish and have his 2nd and 3rd best players be DJ and Danny Ainge, and even then it'd still be more than Bron because DJ made several All-Star teams. So maybe Danny Ainge and Cedric Maxwell.

flea
11-12-2015, 05:19 PM
Also Bird's first 5 years were nothing remarkable as far as teammates, yet he won 2 titles in that time. His teams weren't truly great until '85. Here are some of those so-called key cogs and their playoff lines from 80-84.

DJ (one season, '84): 16.6/3.6/4.4 on 40.4% shooting, very good guard defense.
Parish (four seasons, '81-'84): 16.2/10.2/1.2 on 48.5% shooting, good defense.
McHale (four seasons '81-'84): 12.8/5.6/1 on 53.3% shooting, fair defense.
Maxwell (five seasons '80-'84): 14.4/6.9/2.5 on 55% shooting, good man defense.
Archibald (four seasons '80-'83): 13.3/1.6/6.7 on 43.8% shooting, average or worse defense due to injuries.

That's not a terribly inspiring group to spend half of your prime with. I don't think it's a hell of a lot better than what Lebron dealt with. Difference is Bird stuck around, cajoled McHale into becoming a serious player, moved out of his natural position for the betterment of the team, and went to 4 straight Finals in the hard conference.

valade16
11-12-2015, 05:19 PM
Nah not saying Bird had a worse cast than did Lebron pre-Heat. But he walked onto a team that wasn't very good, and lucked out with the McHale/Parish trade that ended up being a huge winner. DJ was certainly a better acquisition than Larry Hughes, but Larry Hughes wasn't a scrub - he was just a slasher like Lebron forced into a 3-and-D role because Lebron isn't very good off the ball (changing this year there though, from what I've seen).

What if the Cavs had matched on Boozer? He had his shortcomings but he made a career out of a being a really good pick and pop big - imagine prime Lebron with 2 jumpshooting bigs. They could have built something there, especially had Mo Williams gotten there sooner with Wally or somehow else build a defensively competent team where Lebron is your worst shooter in the starting lineup. It's not like other stars didn't go through transition periods with their teams where the talent was lacking.

Instead, he bailed on his team, declared himself a championship player before he won any who was going to team up with 2 of the top 5 other players in his conference (effectively destroying his conference's competition), waited until the Cavs got 5 top 4 picks, and then bolted on his aging superteam in favor of a young superteam. All of that happened and Lebron has now had probably the most talented team in the league going into the 6th year. That's his legacy - deal with it.

1st Bolded: What if Bird's Celtics never got McHale or Parish. Do you still think they get 3 titles?

2nd Bolded: I don't care. I really don't even like LeBron James. I'm a fan of objectivity and your last paragraph leads me to believe you are unable to use it here because of your dislike of LeBron.

There are players/teams who managed to win a title with a comparable supporting cast... but they are few and far between. Hakeem's first Rockets team. Duncan's 03. Rick Barry's GS team. Maybe Dirk's Mavs (if you don't think having that many vets wasn't beneficial) or D-Wade's Heat team (based on Shaq's finals performance).

And those runs and stars deserve to be commended for their accomplishment. But those that couldn't do that don't deserve to be denigrated for failing to do something that has happened .05% of the time in NBA history.

ewing
11-12-2015, 05:20 PM
Or maybe Robert Parish is simply better than Zydrunas (he is).

Essentially what he is saying is Zydrunas Ilgauskas can give you the same rate stats on inferior efficiency and will do it for less minutes on the court. Hardly inspiring.

I don't trash LeBron's teammates. I simply keep it in perspective. During LeBron's first stint in Cleveland players on his team made an All-Star game exactly twice: Big Z once and Mo Williams once.

So his supporting casts accolades while playing in Cleveland were: 2 All-Star games.

Larry Bird's supporting casts accolades while playing in Boston are:

Combined 21 All-Star appearances
Combined 4 All-NBA team appearances
Combined 9 All-Defense team appearances
2 6th Man of the Year awards and a Finals MVP

... compared to 2 All-Star games. And before you say that's because Bird played twice as long on the Celtics as Bron on the Cavs, there is not a single season in which the combined accolades for Bird's supporting cast does not equal or exceed Bron's for his entire tenure in Cleveland.

To make this equivalent to the help LeBron got. Bird would have to not have McHale or Parish and have his 2nd and 3rd best players be DJ and Danny Ainge, and even then it'd still be more than Bron because DJ made several All-Star teams. So maybe Danny Ainge and Cedric Maxwell.



go back and find me where i said Big Z was as good as Robert Parish or where i said LeBron played with comparable talent in Clev to what Bird played with in Boston. You can't. I didn't. I said Bron fans trash his teammates. They do. Weather it be in Clev or Miami if a LeBron team does not win Bron fans will down grade his teammates. IMO it will happen again in Clev b/c LeBron fans aren't Cav fans. The worse LeBron's teammates are the better LeBron is. On the other the better Larry Bird's teammates are the better the Celtics are. No thinks better of Derek Harper and Charles Oakley then Knicks fans. no one thinks worse of Mo Williams then LeBron fans.

flea
11-12-2015, 05:23 PM
Or maybe Robert Parish is simply better than Zydrunas (he is).

Essentially what he is saying is Zydrunas Ilgauskas can give you the same rate stats on inferior efficiency and will do it for less minutes on the court. Hardly inspiring.

I don't trash LeBron's teammates. I simply keep it in perspective. During LeBron's first stint in Cleveland players on his team made an All-Star game exactly twice: Big Z once and Mo Williams once.

No, Big Z was probably even more efficient because he did most of his damage in the midrange (Lebronball will not stand for post-up teammates). He took most of his shots from 16 and out and hit them at 42.9% in the playoffs. From a center that is top-notch jumpshooting production.

Parish had a pretty solid J for a center at the time, but nothing compared to Big Z and he rarely took it. He was a decent post-option but probably miscast even as a secondary scorer - he just happened to be teammates with the best scorer of all time. He was prone to chucking ill-advised shots when defenses collapsed, and that low of a FG% is not very good if you're playing within 10 feet almost exclusively.

And yes, I'm saying for that period of their careers in which they were of similar age, they were not terribly different players. I'd probably take Parish but not if I had Lebron on my team.

Jamiecballer
11-12-2015, 05:25 PM
Teams have pretty much been ******* before and after Lebron. That pretty much tells you all you need to know.

Vee-Rex
11-12-2015, 05:28 PM
I love how Big Z has his name thrown around as if he was some kind of major player on the Lebron-led Cavs teams. Dude was declining and out of his prime by the time the Cavs became an actual contender. He was a shell of his former self (which wasn't spectacular to begin with) during those 08-09 and 09-10 seasons.

To compare him to Robert Parish, let alone the PRIME of Robert Parish is absolutely insane. I don't care much for Bron but man some of you hate his guts and will do anything to try to diminish him.

ewing
11-12-2015, 05:28 PM
Teams have pretty much been ******* before and after Lebron. That pretty much tells you all you need to know.

like LeBron just landed in Miami or back in Clev

flea
11-12-2015, 05:28 PM
1st Bolded: What if Bird's Celtics never got McHale or Parish. Do you still think they get 3 titles?

Yes, or at the very least they get the same amount of ECF wins. Showtime was more talented than everyone, but give Bird defensive role players and some modicum of shooting and he will win. Maybe it's Bob McAdoo or Tree Rollins or Dave Corzine at C but they win unless someone completely screws it up. Bird is probably the easiest player to build around, save for a few of the elite 2-way centers.

flea
11-12-2015, 05:29 PM
I love how Big Z has his name thrown around as if he was some kind of major player on the Lebron-led Cavs teams. Dude was declining and out of his prime by the time the Cavs became an actual contender. He was a shell of his former self (which wasn't spectacular to begin with) during those 08-09 and 09-10 seasons.

To compare him to Robert Parish, let alone the PRIME of Robert Parish is absolutely insane. I don't care much for Bron but man some of you hate his guts and will do anything to try to diminish him.

Surprised to hear you say that considering you fashion yourself as a Cavs fan first. Big Z was a fan favorite for real Cavs fans, and they should know best how good he was. Similar to how underrated I realize Zaza is because I've watched a bunch of Hawks games over the years.

Jamiecballer
11-12-2015, 05:30 PM
No, Big Z was probably even more efficient because he did most of his damage in the midrange (Lebronball will not stand for post-up teammates). He took most of his shots from 16 and out and hit them at 42.9% in the playoffs. From a center that is top-notch jumpshooting production.

Parish had a pretty solid J for a center at the time, but nothing compared to Big Z and he rarely took it. He was a decent post-option but probably miscast even as a secondary scorer - he just happened to be teammates with the best scorer of all time. He was prone to chucking ill-advised shots when defenses collapsed, and that low of a FG% is not very good if you're playing within 10 feet almost exclusively.

And yes, I'm saying for that period of their careers in which they were of similar age, they were not terribly different players. I'd probably take Parish but not if I had Lebron on my team.
Ilgauskas was efficient in large part because he had a great passer in Lebron to find him open. He was a solid player and that's about it.

ewing
11-12-2015, 05:34 PM
I love how Big Z has his name thrown around as if he was some kind of major player on the Lebron-led Cavs teams. Dude was declining and out of his prime by the time the Cavs became an actual contender. He was a shell of his former self (which wasn't spectacular to begin with) during those 08-09 and 09-10 seasons.

To compare him to Robert Parish, let alone the PRIME of Robert Parish is absolutely insane. I don't care much for Bron but man some of you hate his guts and will do anything to try to diminish him.

I was a very young when i saw Parish but i would have give him a clear nod over Big Z. Still, I do think Parish is very overrated historical b/c he played with Larry Bird. This has always happen for guys that play and have success with a great player, well it always happened until LeBron. LeBron teammates seem to be seen in a more negative light then is fair.

flea
11-12-2015, 05:35 PM
Ilgauskas was efficient in large part because he had a great passer in Lebron to find him open. He was a solid player and that's about it.

Why do you think people drool over McHale's shooting % years later without even having watched him? He had a better passing forward playing with him. Parish too, though he did see a fair amount of ISO post ups in the years before McHale emerged. A "solid player" is Evan Fournier. You can count the number of 2-way centers at any time in the league on one hand.

Chronz
11-12-2015, 05:39 PM
reminds me of the Book of Job.

I don't read fiction

valade16
11-12-2015, 05:40 PM
Also Bird's first 5 years were nothing remarkable as far as teammates, yet he won 2 titles in that time. His teams weren't truly great until '85. Here are some of those so-called key cogs and their playoff lines from 80-84.

DJ (one season, '84): 16.6/3.6/4.4 on 40.4% shooting, very good guard defense.
Parish (four seasons, '81-'84): 16.2/10.2/1.2 on 48.5% shooting, good defense.
McHale (four seasons '81-'84): 12.8/5.6/1 on 53.3% shooting, fair defense.
Maxwell (five seasons '80-'84): 14.4/6.9/2.5 on 55% shooting, good man defense.
Archibald (four seasons '80-'83): 13.3/1.6/6.7 on 43.8% shooting, average or worse defense due to injuries.

That's not a terribly inspiring group to spend half of your prime with. I don't think it's a hell of a lot better than what Lebron dealt with. Difference is Bird stuck around, cajoled McHale into becoming a serious player, moved out of his natural position for the betterment of the team, and went to 4 straight Finals in the hard conference.

That's where you're objectively wrong. They are better. Even just those key cogs have a combined 7 All-Star appearances to Cleveland's combined 2. Heck, Maxwell was Finals MVP.

Here are LeBron's 'key cogs' playoff stat lines:

Big Z: 11.1 PPG | 8.0 RPG | 1.2 BPG | 47.1 FG% | .522 TS%
Hughes: 11.3 PPG | 3.6 RPB | 3.0 APG | 33.7 FG% | .430 TS%
Gooden: 10.2 PPG | 7.8 RPG | 0.3 BPG | 50.3 FG% | .538 TS%
West: 12.4 PPG | 4.1 APG | 1.3 SPG | 43.8 FG% | .550 TS%
Williams: 15.4 PPG | 4.7 APG | 3.2 RPG | 40.9 FG% | .533 TS%

First, if you ranked them down every one of Bird's supporting cast outscored the comparable scorer by order:

16.6 to 15.4
16.2 to 12.4
14.4 to 11.3
13.3 to 11.1
12.8 to 10.2

But not only did they outscore LeBron's teammates, they did it on greater efficiency nearly down the entire line as well:

.550 to .613 for Maxwell
.538 to .579 for McHale
.533 to .556 for Tiny
.522 to 520 for Parish
.430 to .491 for DJ


So when you've got a cast of players who can score more and do it more efficiently and play better defense than the other cast, it's a better supporting cast. And remember, this is comparing LeBron's time in Cleveland to Bird's cherry-picked worst supporting cast in Boston.

ewing
11-12-2015, 05:44 PM
I don't read fiction

Spoken like a soulless LeBron fan. Don't read fiction- who reads but doesn't read fiction? you really don't read fiction?

Vee-Rex
11-12-2015, 05:46 PM
Surprised to hear you say that considering you fashion yourself as a Cavs fan first. Big Z was a fan favorite for real Cavs fans, and they should know best how good he was. Similar to how underrated I realize Zaza is because I've watched a bunch of Hawks games over the years.

What does Big Z being a fan favorite have anything to do with how good he was? I'm sure I've watched 230981342x more of him than you have, and I will tell you that although he was a good player in his prime, he was no Robert Parish in HIS prime.

Z's defense became terribad. He absolutely could not defend the pick-n-roll to save his life and that's partially why Tony Parker absolutely dominated us in the 2007 finals.

So yeah, stop your implication about me not being a 'real Cavs fan' when you're bonkers for suggesting Z was almost the equivalent to Robert Parish.

valade16
11-12-2015, 05:48 PM
Ilgauskas was efficient in large part because he had a great passer in Lebron to find him open. He was a solid player and that's about it.

To piggy-back off this. Here are Big Z's %'s prior to Bron and after.

Prior to Bron: 44.2 FG% | 36.5 FG% 16-23 ft.
After Bron: 48.0 FG% | 41.4 FG% 16-34 ft.

Seems like LeBron had at least in part something to do with Big Z's ability to hit midrange shots at a high %...

flea
11-12-2015, 05:49 PM
So when you've got a cast of players who can score more and do it more efficiently and play better defense than the other cast, it's a better supporting cast. And remember, this is comparing LeBron's time in Cleveland to Bird's cherry-picked worst supporting cast in Boston.

Don't know about better defense, the Cavs were defense first because they tried going the MJ route of unleashing Lebron as a scorer (clearly didn't work). Mike Brown was from Pop's tree, and has always preached defense first, and discipline on D, and he had the personnel to do it in Cleveland.

It's not going to be apples to apples like you made it on offense either, since Bird was a more and better off-ball player with a lower USG%. Plus you went down the line when DJ was only there one year, Mo one year, etc. Anyway, the point I was making was that it's not terribly different - and it's not. Plus those aren't cherrypicked - those are Bird's first 5 years in the league (age 23-27). We'll have to agree to disagree if you think Bird's teams for his first 5 years were appreciably more talented than Lebron's.

valade16
11-12-2015, 05:55 PM
Don't know about better defense, the Cavs were defense first because they tried going the MJ route of unleashing Lebron as a scorer (clearly didn't work). Mike Brown was from Pop's tree, and has always preached defense first, and discipline on D, and he had the personnel to do it in Cleveland.

It's not going to be apples to apples like you made it on offense either, since Bird was a more and better off-ball player with a lower USG%. Plus you went down the line when DJ was only there one year, Mo one year, etc. Anyway, the point I was making was that it's not terribly different - and it's not. Plus those aren't cherrypicked - those are Bird's first 5 years in the league (age 23-27). We'll have to agree to disagree if you think Bird's teams for his first 5 years were appreciably more talented than Lebron's.

And that is fine. But I suspect you'll be disagreeing with the vast majority of basketball fans (though I encourage you to create a thread and see how well that goes).

I also want to point out those are only playoff numbers. If we looked at regular season numbers it would be even more lopsided in favor of Bird's supporting cast.

Vee-Rex
11-12-2015, 06:05 PM
Don't know about better defense, the Cavs were defense first because they tried going the MJ route of unleashing Lebron as a scorer (clearly didn't work). Mike Brown was from Pop's tree, and has always preached defense first, and discipline on D, and he had the personnel to do it in Cleveland.

It's not going to be apples to apples like you made it on offense either, since Bird was a more and better off-ball player with a lower USG%. Plus you went down the line when DJ was only there one year, Mo one year, etc. Anyway, the point I was making was that it's not terribly different - and it's not. Plus those aren't cherrypicked - those are Bird's first 5 years in the league (age 23-27). We'll have to agree to disagree if you think Bird's teams for his first 5 years were appreciably more talented than Lebron's.

08-09/09-10 Cavs were a terrific defensive team in the regular season. Their weaknesses were glaringly obvious when playoffs came and opponents game-planned. They never beat anyone that was truly substantial and when they did match up against a team on their level that got blasted (except for the lucky 07 ECF win against the Pistons).

Our problem was always matchup problems. In the regular season we dominated because we had a great defensive system in place and could challenge any position with our length. In the playoffs other teams exploited our players inability to defend multiple positions, especially at the Center.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju3HU1Pxn0Q

Look at Tony Parker's points. Many of them came off the pick-n-roll and Big Z either:

1. Didn't know what to do
2. Was too slow to close out
3. Was too slow to come out and chase Parker to the rim

Z couldn't protect the rim at all, and he couldn't run up and down the court. In fact, during the 2007 finals, Big Z averaged 25mpg which was less than any series for the Cavs in the entire 2007 playoffs (he averaged 32mpg against the Pistons in the ECF). Popovich saw the weaknesses Z presented on defense and exploited it.

That's not to take away anything that the Spurs did. Parker was an animal. A freak. And Popovich of course incredible. But Big Z was horrendous on defense and really wasn't great at offense either at the time.

This was the 2007 playoffs, not even the 2009/10 playoffs. He got worse the years after 2007. I watched all that crap. Z is often underrated and while I'm a fan, he definitely was no Parish.

jerellh528
11-12-2015, 06:13 PM
I don't read fiction

You've never read Harry Potter?

flea
11-12-2015, 06:15 PM
Yeah you could pick on Big Z on P&Rs in his old age when he didn't move as well (post back problems too) but he wasn't "horrendous on defense." There are a lot of rim protectors that can exposed with good P&R teams, hell the Clips have made a living destroying teams that are even good at defending P&R. Even Duncan these days isn't ideal defending the P&R if the ballhandler can shoot.

And in 2007 there was maybe nobody better than Parker/Duncan in the P&R, not Williams/Boozer and maybe not even Nash/Stat even though they put up the gaudy stats and are widely recognized as perhaps the best P&R duo ever. That they shredded a less talented in the Finals is no surprise.

When healthy, he was a very good 2-way center. Sure the Cavs didn't win before Lebron got there, but it's not like Parish was carrying teams to anything either. He got traded off a 24 win Warriors team even though he was an in-prime center. Both good centers, Parish definitely had the edge for his career but at times they were very comparable in impact.

Hawkeye15
11-12-2015, 06:50 PM
You've never read Harry Potter?

or First Blood?

Chronz
11-12-2015, 06:58 PM
Spoken like a soulless LeBron fan. Don't read fiction- who reads but doesn't read fiction? you really don't read fiction?
I lied I do read fiction. I have to on this board

Vee-Rex
11-12-2015, 07:01 PM
Yeah you could pick on Big Z on P&Rs in his old age when he didn't move as well (post back problems too) but he wasn't "horrendous on defense." There are a lot of rim protectors that can exposed with good P&R teams, hell the Clips have made a living destroying teams that are even good at defending P&R. Even Duncan these days isn't ideal defending the P&R if the ballhandler can shoot.

And in 2007 there was maybe nobody better than Parker/Duncan in the P&R, not Williams/Boozer and maybe not even Nash/Stat even though they put up the gaudy stats and are widely recognized as perhaps the best P&R duo ever. That they shredded a less talented in the Finals is no surprise.

When healthy, he was a very good 2-way center. Sure the Cavs didn't win before Lebron got there, but it's not like Parish was carrying teams to anything either. He got traded off a 24 win Warriors team even though he was an in-prime center. Both good centers, Parish definitely had the edge for his career but at times they were very comparable in impact.

At this point I'm not sure what you're arguing.

My argument:

1. Big Z was a good player, often underrated
2. Big Z was no Robert Parish, especially when comparing primes
3. During the years where Lebron developed enough to make the Cavs a contender, Big Z was horrible on defense.

Z was in his prime 2002-2006'ish. The Cavs weren't competing to be in the finals until 2007-2010. Big Z was NOT a good defender or two-way player during those times.

Are you disputing any of this?

flea
11-12-2015, 07:23 PM
At this point I'm not sure what you're arguing.

My argument:

1. Big Z was a good player, often underrated
2. Big Z was no Robert Parish, especially when comparing primes
3. During the years where Lebron developed enough to make the Cavs a contender, Big Z was horrible on defense.

Z was in his prime 2002-2006'ish. The Cavs weren't competing to be in the finals until 2007-2010. Big Z was NOT a good defender or two-way player during those times.

Are you disputing any of this?

Depends on how much better you think Parish under the bolded. I think it's Parish's ability to be a good center for a very long time that makes him HOF level, even if he was the 2nd best player on a championship team. Even Bruce Bowen and Vernon Maxwell have been championship #2s, sometimes context is needed.

Their prime lines aren't terribly off from one another (similar everything but FG%, but eras were different and Big Z was a jumpshooting center), and I already posted their postseason lines. Both were good role playing centers, and injuries ended Big Z's career early. Nobody blames Parish for being unable to contain late 30s Kareem, rather they blame Bird for the 85/87 losses. And yet when a guard thrashes the Cavs it's not Lebron's fault at all but Big Z's.

Jamiecballer
11-12-2015, 07:42 PM
like LeBron just landed in Miami or back in Clev
No idea what this means

Jamiecballer
11-12-2015, 07:44 PM
Why do you think people drool over McHale's shooting % years later without even having watched him? He had a better passing forward playing with him. Parish too, though he did see a fair amount of ISO post ups in the years before McHale emerged. A "solid player" is Evan Fournier. You can count the number of 2-way centers at any time in the league on one hand.
He's really overrated IMO

Bartlee23
11-12-2015, 10:09 PM
Exactly what I was saying earlier. Before Kyrie Irving, LeBron never played with a great, or even very good, point guard. Before Bosh, he never played with a great big man. Unless you count 95 year old Ben Wallace or Shaq. Varejao and Ilgauskas were solid, but far from studs. He never played with a guy who can consistently create offense before Dwyane Wade, and even then, Wade played 2/3 of the games due to injury and declined because of it. Before Shane Battier, LeBron never had a guy who can take the best player on the other team defensively. Mike Brown's system was "LeBron create and everyone else just help out."

LeBron, in turn, became the primary ball handler, facilitator, defender, scorer, and sometimes rebounder. He's played in 3 Olympics I believe. He's been to 5 straight NBA Finals. Essentially, he's played 5 straight years of basketball with no off time, unlike just about everyone else in the world. Outside of NBA activities, he's doing Olympics training. While playing, he's had to be the best player on every team he's played on. THAT'S wear and tear.

The conference/schedule argument just doesn't hold water against LeBron. He's done everything for every team he's ever been on. He's basically had no off time for half a decade at least. No one has EVER done that. I don't care who you bring up. Not Jordan. Not Wilt. Not Kobe. Not Magic. Not Kareem. Not Bird. Etc. LeBron carries a bigger responsibility on his team with as little off time as anyone in history. Whatever "conference advantage" the East provides is negligible compared to everything else he does basketball-wise.

If you make the argument that it's easier on the borderline stars and the role players, then that's valid. But pretending that LeBron is any less great because of his conference is absurd when you compare it to everything else. Here's one thing I can say about LeBron: At 31, he's at least in the conversation with Curry, Durant, Davis, etc. All of whom are much younger, haven't played as much over the summer, and haven't had the same work load that LeBron has had.


What are you talking about? You know Jordan basically had a DECADE of " no time off." He competed deep in the playoffs for years won three titles and a summer of the "dream team" only to take time off and play baseball and then come back and win 3 more championships. Jordan's "time off" consisted of doing commercials, basketball camps, working with charity's and organizations and working with all the companies he owns. The guy never sleeps and by far "did everything for his team." I don't think you realize how important and popular Jordan is. He is the most popular athlete in the world and doesn't even play a sport.

In 10 years when Lebron is long retired he will not even come close to selling all the products Jordan does nor will he ever be as successful. Lebron is a top 10 player for sure but don't put him in a category he just isn't in. Everyone wanted Jordan's name on something or his involvement in something. It's why he's the best and always will be.

Vee-Rex
11-12-2015, 10:45 PM
Depends on how much better you think Parish under the bolded. I think it's Parish's ability to be a good center for a very long time that makes him HOF level, even if he was the 2nd best player on a championship team. Even Bruce Bowen and Vernon Maxwell have been championship #2s, sometimes context is needed.

Their prime lines aren't terribly off from one another (similar everything but FG%, but eras were different and Big Z was a jumpshooting center), and I already posted their postseason lines. Both were good role playing centers, and injuries ended Big Z's career early. Nobody blames Parish for being unable to contain late 30s Kareem, rather they blame Bird for the 85/87 losses. And yet when a guard thrashes the Cavs it's not Lebron's fault at all but Big Z's.

I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

It's unfortunate that you've taken your argument this far just to try to act like Bron's pre-Heat teams were just about as good as Bird's. I'm sure if I did a poll the number of people who share your belief would be equivalent or even less than those claiming George Hill is better than Irving. But why bother, it's not worth it when arguments are simply fueled from people hating someone that doesn't even know them.

Smh when I think I've seen it all on this site. It truly is sad IMO.

flea
11-12-2015, 11:03 PM
I guess we'll just agree to disagree.

It's unfortunate that you've taken your argument this far just to try to act like Bron's pre-Heat teams were just about as good as Bird's. I'm sure if I did a poll the number of people who share your belief would be equivalent or even less than those claiming George Hill is better than Irving. But why bother, it's not worth it when arguments are simply fueled from people hating someone that doesn't even know them.

Smh when I think I've seen it all on this site. It truly is sad IMO.

First 5 years of Bird's career. Nobody is talking about prime McHale here. No it's not that different, maybe the difference between Al Horford's cast and Chris Bosh's. Most people didn't even watch these teams back then - admittedly I hadn't for a while until I made it a point to do so, having only seen these players at the tail end. The mid-80s playoffs were as good as anything today.

FlashBolt
11-12-2015, 11:15 PM
He's really trying to say Parish wasn't much better than Big Z... I don't know what to tell you. He says Parish looked better because of Bird but I guess Big Z didn't look good because of LeBron. Flea, I have to ask.. did you watch the Cavs or are you just basing it off your personal vendetta that you have had against LeBron and other modern players? If you are trying to dispute that Bird has carried a team more than LeBron has, you are just spewing nonsense. If it's one thing no one can deny, it's that LeBron has carried teams his entire career. Refer to how crappy teams turn when he leaves and how great they become when he arrives. Btw, can you remind me who the Finals MVP was for one of their rings? Oh... that's right.

FlashBolt
11-12-2015, 11:20 PM
LeBron's best Cavs teammates: Mo Williams, Big Z, Anderson Varejao
Bird's best teammates: Maxwell, Tiny Nate, Parish, McHale

You tell me who wins here.

IKnowHoops
11-12-2015, 11:45 PM
LeBron's best Cavs teammates: Mo Williams, Big Z, Anderson Varejao
Bird's best teammates: Maxwell, Tiny Nate, Parish, McHale

You tell me who wins here.

Don't forget Dennis Johnson.

The worst player Bird played with is better than the best player Bron played with.

tredigs
11-12-2015, 11:48 PM
LeBron's best Cavs teammates: Mo Williams, Big Z, Anderson Varejao
Bird's best teammates: Maxwell, Tiny Nate, Parish, McHale

You tell me who wins here.

Obviously Bird, but 3 championships in his first 7 years in the league (that included two tough losses to the Showtime Lakers in the NBA Finals) would indicate as much. He did a lot more, with more.

IKnowHoops
11-12-2015, 11:57 PM
Obviously Bird, but 3 championships in his first 7 years in the league (that included two tough losses to the Showtime Lakers in the NBA Finals) would indicate as much. He did a lot more, with more.

So he basically did as much as Lebron with the Heat? But a lot more than what Bron did with Cleveland?

Thats funny because I think Bron was better on Cleveland than on Miami, and getting those teams 66 wins and to the finals seems like a tougher thing to do than winning a ring with Wade and Bosh, or Parish and Mchale. Just my opinion though. I bet he was statistically better on Cleveland too though.

FlashBolt
11-13-2015, 12:19 AM
LeBron's four seasons with Miami was really impressive. The guy won everything. 2x MVP, check. 2x FMVP, check. 2x rings, check. Olympics? Check. He achieved all he should have in terms of diversity. Hell, I still think he was robbed of DPOY. But we never even look at how the pairing for Boston worked much better for Bird than the pairing Miami had. Wade was injury prone, Bosh can't rebound and was destroyed by frontcourts. I'd reckon a team of LeBron+Parish+McHale would have been far more lethal than Wade+Bosh. Of course, Miami succeeded because of that vicious three point shooting orchestrated by LeBron. So you have a top ten frontcourt in Parish+McHale. I don't think there is a question who had a better team their first seven years. LeBron came into the league as the face of a team with practically zero veteran leadership. His entire team changed over the years and finally became stable after Mo/Gibs/Zydrunas/Varejao. Can we talk about how Jordan had the perfect team around him? He wasn't the best rebounder, passer, or defender on his own team. One guy named LeBron has been for nearly 90% of his career.

tredigs
11-13-2015, 12:30 AM
LeBron's four seasons with Miami was really impressive. The guy won everything. 2x MVP, check. 2x FMVP, check. 2x rings, check. Olympics? Check. He achieved all he should have in terms of diversity. Hell, I still think he was robbed of DPOY. But we never even look at how the pairing for Boston worked much better for Bird than the pairing Miami had. Wade was injury prone, Bosh can't rebound and was destroyed by frontcourts. I'd reckon a team of LeBron+Parish+McHale would have been far more lethal than Wade+Bosh. Of course, Miami succeeded because of that vicious three point shooting orchestrated by LeBron. So you have a top ten frontcourt in Parish+McHale. I don't think there is a question who had a better team their first seven years. LeBron came into the league as the face of a team with practically zero veteran leadership. His entire team changed over the years and finally became stable after Mo/Gibs/Zydrunas/Varejao. Can we talk about how Jordan had the perfect team around him? He wasn't the best rebounder, passer, or defender on his own team. One guy named LeBron has been for nearly 90% of his career.

#1 - Yes, Jordan was on many occasions the best defender and passer on his team.

#2 - Jordan's scoring ability was > Bron's, and probably everyone else ever.

#3 - Jordan was never outplayed by a teammate in the NBA Finals (I'd be impressed if we could pinpoint any series ever, actually). That is for sure.

Hawkeye15
11-13-2015, 12:55 AM
#1 - Yes, Jordan was on many occasions the best defender and passer on his team.

#2 - Jordan's scoring ability was > Bron's, and probably everyone else ever.

#3 - Jordan was never outplayed by a teammate in the NBA Finals (I'd be impressed if we could pinpoint any series ever, actually). That is for sure.

as a baseline, haven't we established Jordan is the GOAT?


comparing another player to him ends up a fail

tredigs
11-13-2015, 12:57 AM
as a baseline, haven't we established Jordan is the GOAT?


comparing another player to him ends up a fail

Obviously not?

More-Than-Most
11-13-2015, 01:01 AM
#1 - Yes, Jordan was on many occasions the best defender and passer on his team.

#2 - Jordan's scoring ability was > Bron's, and probably everyone else ever.

#3 - Jordan was never outplayed by a teammate in the NBA Finals (I'd be impressed if we could pinpoint any series ever, actually). That is for sure.

No Jordan wasnt the majority of the time the best defender on his team... Jordan didnt get outplayed by a teammate in the finals because he had so many great damn teammates that he could do as he pleases often... Lebron never had a team close to as deep or talented as any of the bulls teams when they won their championships... Not when he was with Wade/Bosh... Not now... The Bulls teams were stacked... They won like 60 games and went to the WCF without Jordan. Jordan is the Goat but Jordan had the benefit of some of the best teams ever. What was his playoff record without Pippen and them? 1-10 without Pippen and those stacked bulls teams.

Of the other top 10 players who ever played with a team and made a deep playoff run with the lack of talent James had as a cav? I will wait for anyone to answer this.

James on any of the Lakers teams with Shaq and they win championships every single year... James in his prime on the curry Warriors team in place of curry and no team comes close to beating them... Durant/Curry and on down the list never had to deal with the lack of talent around them like James did and neither did Jordan.

mngopher35
11-13-2015, 01:10 AM
I know this thread is all about Lebron right now but man is Curry impressing to start the year. He has been absolutely ridiculous.

tredigs
11-13-2015, 01:11 AM
No Jordan wasnt the majority of the time the best defender on his team... Jordan didnt get outplayed by a teammate in the finals because he had so many great damn teammates that he could do as he pleases often... Lebron never had a team close to as deep or talented as any of the bulls teams when they won their championships... Not when he was with Wade/Bosh... Not now... The Bulls teams were stacked... They won like 60 games without Jordan. Jordan is the Goat but Jordan had the benefit of some of the best teams ever. What was his playoff record without Pippen and them? 1-10 without Pippen and those stacked bulls teams.
Ugh, this post is depressing and been owned so many ****ing times on this site.

#1 - The Bulls without Jordan a 60 win team? They won 55 and 47. If you don't think prime Wade + Bosh and company were doing that in that East, then we have no baseline for argument here. Even at this point - nowhere close to their 2012 self - they're going to push 50 wins in the East (a better East).

#2 - Are we going to pretend to ignore who young Jordan (with hilariously **** casts) played in the post-season to receive the record he did? Because they were some slightly better comp than Bron faced.

I really don't have the energy or care to revisit this for the 100th time and entertain this any further right now.

@Hawkeye. Case in point?

IKnowHoops
11-13-2015, 01:16 AM
Ugh, this post is depressing and been owned so many ****ing times on this site.

#1 - The Bulls without Jordan a 60 win team? They won 55 and 47. If you don't think prime Wade + Bosh and company were doing that in that East, then we have no baseline for argument here. Even at this point - nowhere close to their 2012 self - they're going to push 50 wins in the East (a better East).

#2 - Are we going to pretend to ignore who young Jordan (with hilariously **** casts) played in the post-season to receive the record he did? Because they were some slightly better comp than Bron faced.

I really don't have the energy or care to revisit this for the 100th time and entertain this any further right now.

@Hawkeye. Case in point?

To be fair, there 2012 selves were nowhere near there 2006 selves. More importantly, Whiteside is the best player on the team right now, so, I'd slow down on giving them to much credit for this 50 win season.

IKnowHoops
11-13-2015, 01:21 AM
I know this thread is all about Lebron right now but man is Curry impressing to start the year. He has been absolutely ridiculous.

If you ain't impressed, you a hater. He's unbelievable. I rate him as the #1 PG of all-time.

tredigs
11-13-2015, 01:22 AM
To be fair, there 2012 selves were nowhere near there 2006 selves.

They were both in their absolute prime their first two seasons with Bron, and Wade was very close to that in year 3 (Bosh still there). In year 4 Bosh was just way too accepting of his role and that is where we saw Wade's true decline. At this point, neither are the players they once were. Bron knew that, and bolted town accordingly.

More-Than-Most
11-13-2015, 01:23 AM
Ugh, this post is depressing and been owned so many ****ing times on this site.

#1 - The Bulls without Jordan a 60 win team? They won 55 and 47. If you don't think prime Wade + Bosh and company were doing that in that East, then we have no baseline for argument here. Even at this point - nowhere close to their 2012 self - they're going to push 50 wins in the East (a better East).

#2 - Are we going to pretend to ignore who young Jordan (with hilariously **** casts) played in the post-season to receive the record he did? Because they were some slightly better comp than Bron faced.

I really don't have the energy or care to revisit this for the 100th time and entertain this any further right now.

@Hawkeye. Case in point?

Jordan never gets **** for those bad teams with his 1-10 record like James does whom had even worse teams around him period... People actually make the argument against James that it is better he doesnt make the finals and lose there because it hurts his legacy and he would be better off losing in the first round... Logic seems to go out the window the majority of the time when people discuss James or compare him to others. I dont know if there is anyone in the history of the game that does/did more with less than James did at the time with the cavs.

tredigs
11-13-2015, 01:27 AM
Jordan never gets **** for those bad teams with his 1-10 record like James does whom had even worse teams around him period... People actually make the argument against James that it is better he doesnt make the finals and lose there because it hurts his legacy and he would be better off losing in the first round... Logic seems to go out the window the majority of the time when people discuss James or compare him to others. I dont know if there is anyone in the history of the game that does/did more with less than James did at the time with the cavs.

I don't know how old you are or how well versed on NBA history you are, but if you don't think Jordan was getting otherworldly amounts of hell for not being a champion by the late 80's (despite Showtime / BadBoy Pistons / Celtics), again we have no baseline for an argument.

In 20 years, the 20 yr olds won't realize Bron got hell for his Cavs days, either. They'll just see a dominant player.

More-Than-Most
11-13-2015, 01:28 AM
They were both in their absolute prime their first two seasons with Bron, and Wade was very close to that in year 3 (Bosh still there). In year 4 Bosh was just way too accepting of his role and that is where we saw Wade's true decline. At this point, neither are the players they once were. Bron knew that, and bolted town accordingly.

Bosh was great the first year but after that not so much... That being said people considered them a super team but I stated all along there were still better teams than that team because they were 3 superstars with meh players around them and not a very deep team either.

Look and Bosh playoff stats from the 2nd year on... they fell off badly... wade fell off that 3rd year in every area by a bit and bosh and wade melted the 4th year completely.

IKnowHoops
11-13-2015, 01:28 AM
They were both in their absolute prime their first two seasons with Bron, and Wade was very close to that in year 3 (Bosh still there). In year 4 Bosh was just way too accepting of his role and that is where we saw Wade's true decline. At this point, neither are the players they once were. Bron knew that, and bolted town accordingly.

I definitely disagree with this. Wade had lost a good amount of his leap that first season. I remember a game against the Celtics early on that first year, he had so much trouble finishing at the rim in ways he had been excelling at his whole career. It was the loss of athletic ability that was affecting his athletic plays.

Bosh was so much quicker in 2007. He was much stiffer by the time he got to the Heat. The Heat team would of been much better had they got together in say 2005. Wade and Bron would of been very close to equals and all three of them would of had energy for days.

tredigs
11-13-2015, 01:30 AM
]I definitely disagree with this[/B]. Wade had lost a good amount of his leap that first season. I remember a game against the Celtics early on that first year, he had so much trouble finishing at the rim in ways he had been excelling at his whole career. It was the loss of athletic ability that was affecting his athletic plays.

Bosh was so much quicker in 2007. He was much stiffer by the time he got to the Heat. The Heat team would of been much better had they got together in say 2005. Wade and Bron would of been very close to equals and all three of them would of had energy for days.
Well, then you have to concede that a sub-prime lesser tier player outplayed a guy in his max peak that you consider the best of all time in multiple playoff series, including the NBA Finals. Something a peak Pippen never achieved over MJ.

More-Than-Most
11-13-2015, 01:33 AM
I don't know how old you are or how well versed on NBA history you are, but if you don't think Jordan was getting otherworldly amounts of hell for not being a champion by the late 80's (despite Showtime / BadBoy Pistons / Celtics), again we have no baseline for an argument.

In 20 years, the 20 yr olds won't realize Bron got hell for his Cavs days, either. They'll just see a dominant player.

There is no player in the history of any sport that has been hated on like James and had to deal with the crap james has had to deal with because of social media and the electronic age and so on... In the 80s and early 90s there was next to no hate going around for Jordan... He wasnt being as praised but no outside of a few the goldenboy never got destroyed for any of those playoff losses and rightfully so because his team was crap.. I am not arguing that he should be put down for it I am saying that Jordan gets passes and got passes for him the likes that someone like James never had... Nobody is even close to as scrutinized as Lebron james and nobody has had to deal with half the pressure he has from the age of like 14 on.

More-Than-Most
11-13-2015, 01:38 AM
Well, then you have to concede that a sub-prime lesser tier player outplayed a guy in his max peak that you consider the best of all time in multiple playoff series, including the NBA Finals. Something a peak Pippen never achieved over MJ.

agreed and everyone that loves Bron knows that this is why he will never be the GOAT and I am not sure anyone is arguing that... of his 4 losses the only one that is actually his fault is the Mavs series where he was without a doubt ****.

The others... He lost on the cavs because of 0 help... He lost to the spurs because they were the better team and he still played his *** off... They lost to the warriors even though he had one of the best finals of all time and 0 help against probably one of the best teams ever.

Pierzynski4Prez
11-13-2015, 01:39 AM
Outside of his comeback with the Wiz, Jordan won a ring in his last 6 years in the league. What is there to hate on again?

That's 6 if you needed a reminder.

More-Than-Most
11-13-2015, 01:48 AM
Outside of his comeback with the Wiz, Jordan won a ring in his last 6 years in the league. What is there to hate on again?

That's 6 if you needed a reminder.

Thank you for helping make my point for me.

nastynice
11-13-2015, 02:03 AM
I know this thread is all about Lebron right now but man is Curry impressing to start the year. He has been absolutely ridiculous.

yea, its borderline stupidity what this guy is doing right now. I can't remember a player being so unguardable on offense since prime kobe (their crappy years)

FlashBolt
11-13-2015, 02:05 AM
It doesn't matter if Wade+Bosh were at their prime. Pippen+Rodman>Wade+Bosh if you have a dominant ballhandler. Pippen+Rodman+LeBron would cause mayhem. You and I both know that.

ewing
11-13-2015, 07:32 AM
No idea what this means

you cant say teams got LeBron and suddenly got better b/c they weren't the same teams as they were the year before. When you get LeBron you get LeBron and the players he has colluded with through out the off season to create a super team. In Clev case you also seem to have let him take over as GM and spend whatever he wants.

ewing
11-13-2015, 07:45 AM
Bosh was great the first year but after that not so much... That being said people considered them a super team but I stated all along there were still better teams than that team because they were 3 superstars with meh players around them and not a very deep team either.

Look and Bosh playoff stats from the 2nd year on... they fell off badly... wade fell off that 3rd year in every area by a bit and bosh and wade melted the 4th year completely.

it takes a village of superstars

ewing
11-13-2015, 07:47 AM
There is no player in the history of any sport that has been hated on like James and had to deal with the crap james has had to deal with because of social media and the electronic age and so on... In the 80s and early 90s there was next to no hate going around for Jordan... He wasnt being as praised but no outside of a few the goldenboy never got destroyed for any of those playoff losses and rightfully so because his team was crap.. I am not arguing that he should be put down for it I am saying that Jordan gets passes and got passes for him the likes that someone like James never had... Nobody is even close to as scrutinized as Lebron james and nobody has had to deal with half the pressure he has from the age of like 14 on.

poor LeBron

ewing
11-13-2015, 09:22 AM
It doesn't matter if Wade+Bosh were at their prime. Pippen+Rodman>Wade+Bosh if you have a dominant ballhandler. Pippen+Rodman+LeBron would cause mayhem. You and I both know that.

See how other the teammates of other greats get talked up but anyone who plays with Bron gets slammed. Rodman on the Bulls is much more comparable to Tristan Thompson right now and your comparing that guy to prime Wade or Bosh.

Pierzynski4Prez
11-13-2015, 10:14 AM
It doesn't matter if Wade+Bosh were at their prime. Pippen+Rodman>Wade+Bosh if you have a dominant ballhandler. Pippen+Rodman+LeBron would cause mayhem. You and I both know that.

Is anyone here arguing against that? Rodman was also 34 when he came to Chicago FWIW. Bosh was 26 when he left for Miami. Rodman creating 0 floor spacing for others as he had no shot, you didn't need to guard him outside the paint ever. Bosh was able to spread the floor alot more to LBJ's benefit.

valade16
11-13-2015, 11:13 AM
as a baseline, haven't we established Jordan is the GOAT?

comparing another player to him ends up a fail

Lol exactly.

"Well he didn't do what MJ did"

Ok that means his ceiling is at best the 2nd best player of all-time?

valade16
11-13-2015, 11:16 AM
Is anyone here arguing against that? Rodman was also 34 when he came to Chicago FWIW. Bosh was 26 when he left for Miami. Rodman creating 0 floor spacing for others as he had no shot, you didn't need to guard him outside the paint ever. Bosh was able to spread the floor alot more to LBJ's benefit.

Rodman still was able to have offensive value statistically because he was a monster on the offensive glass.

But speaking to the larger point, if Pippen/Rodman were better than Wade/Bosh it's only because their skill sets were so complementary to a star player, otherwise I don't see Bron at any major disadvantage with his Heat supporting cast.

Scoots
11-13-2015, 01:17 PM
yea, its borderline stupidity what this guy is doing right now. I can't remember a player being so unguardable on offense since prime kobe (their crappy years)

That's a good comparison because Kobe was making "bad" shots with shocking regularity. Last year even in the finals Kerr was getting upset with Curry taking "bad" shots. This year he's taking even more "bad" shots and nobody is getting upset with him ... like Kobe's prime.