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View Full Version : Which player do you think could have been top-10 all time if not for injuries?



JasonJohnHorn
11-04-2015, 12:04 PM
Injuries seem to be on the rise lately, but some players, like Duncan, have been very fortunate to remain relatively injury free throughout their careers.

Which players do you think stood the best chance of earning a top-10 ranking had they remained injury free throughout their careers?


Just to throw some names out there: Bill Walton, Penny Hardaway, Grant Hill, and Tracy McGrady.


Which one, or ones, would be in the top ten is healthy? And who else might you add to the list?

ROY 2 MVP Braun
11-04-2015, 12:08 PM
Grant Hill and Tracy McGrady are the 2 that popped into my head Right away.

jerellh528
11-04-2015, 12:22 PM
None

ewing
11-04-2015, 12:42 PM
LeBron. That guy could been someone :) Seriously, I'll get away from the obvious and say Yao Ming. He played every night for 3 years and then couldn't stay healthy. With his style of game and build he could have played a long long time if it wasn't for the feet.

krrys11
11-04-2015, 12:47 PM
Penny for me.

WaDe03
11-04-2015, 01:06 PM
Wade McGrady and Grant Hill.

Jamiecballer
11-04-2015, 01:31 PM
McGrady for me. And Kobe. He's just outside top 10 for me and with the way his game has evaporated so too has his chance of making my top 10.

InRoseWeTrust
11-04-2015, 01:32 PM
Hill, McGrady, and Wade now that I think about it

NYKalltheway
11-04-2015, 01:45 PM
McGrady, Yao Ming and.... Sam Bowie. There, I said it.

basch152
11-04-2015, 02:35 PM
Hill and webber.

Webber could very well have ended up the goat PF if not for injuries.

Jamiecballer
11-04-2015, 02:51 PM
Webber is a great great choice

c.c.
11-04-2015, 03:09 PM
The Yao Ming/T-Mac duo and the Greg Oden/ Brandon Roy duo would of very entertaining to watch if those guys was healthy.


I know that answer doesn't quite fit with the thread but...........

ManningToTyree
11-04-2015, 03:14 PM
Penny mcgrady and webber

FYL_McVeezy
11-04-2015, 03:40 PM
Penny and Grant Hill I think for sure....

Possibly TMac....possibly

CityofChaos
11-04-2015, 03:41 PM
Brandon Roy & Arenas

Dade County
11-04-2015, 03:51 PM
Wade

He would have been the undisputed 2nd greatest SG ever at this point.

But do to injuries & script plot (lbj in dallas Finals... & having to take a back seat to lbj, even tho Wade would have won Finals mvp), Wade is now a forgotten star.

Wade is avg 29min & 21.5 pts this season so far.

shep33
11-04-2015, 04:01 PM
Grant Hill easily for me.
Dude was an effective player at 40. He was putting up LeBron numbers. 20, 10 and 7 in his 2nd year. Good defender too

KnicksorBust
11-04-2015, 04:10 PM
No offense but half of these answers are terrible. Gilbert Arenas would have been a top 10 player of all-time? Seriously? Again I love Grant Hill. I met him in Orlando. Great guy. But he was healthy up until he was 28 years old. After 6 full seasons he had 0 MVPs, 0 all-defensive teams, 0 playoff series won, and a grand total of 1 all-nba 1st team. That player was going to be one of the 10 greatest players of all-time? Let's not exaggerate.

Bill Walton is the best answer imo.

Chronz
11-04-2015, 04:22 PM
You need a large amount of luck to make the top-10, you need to find the right team and coach to get you the success necessary to make the cut. Crazy how unlucky the Magic have been but they were almost that team for most of the guys you listed.

Hill and Tmac should have had a great run but I dont think they would be enough to win. If both are healthy maybe different players coalesce but without a great big man (the one they gave up to get Hill, for example) they aint winning **** but EC titles.

Tmac and Yao however, now that was a duo that had so much potential. Sadly, Tmac dropped off severely after his first year there, just as Yao was coming into his own. As it was, they won about 70% of their games when healthy. I shudder to imagine what they would have done to the league had Tmac remained the star he was.

Chronz
11-04-2015, 04:28 PM
Grant Hill easily for me.
Dude was an effective player at 40. He was putting up LeBron numbers. 20, 10 and 7 in his 2nd year. Good defender too

Far Inferior numbers to what Bron was doing at the same stage. Defense was average as well.

Now Tmac, THOSE are superstar numbers surpassed by few and a far more versatile defender as well.

KBD
11-04-2015, 06:07 PM
Agree about Wade. Dude was a beast on D before the injury. Rarely gets blocks now, but he was an elite shutdown defender back in the day. Just to balance out the O for those wanting to see a complete player.

Although probably not top 10, Drazen Petrovic had the chance to be pretty elite too. Career not cut short specifically by injury, but rather fatality (waaaay too soon). He was the original Steph Curry. In his final year (his 6th in the league), he averaged 0.518 FG%, 0.449 3P%, and 0.841 FT%. By comparison, Steph last year (his 6th in the league) averaged 0.487 FG%, 0.443 3P%, and 0.914 FT%. (Granted, Steph had better assists, rebounds, etc., but the systems the teams ran were different.) He once scored 112 points (40/60 FG, 10/20 3Pts, 22/22 FT) in a professional game in the Yugoslavian league (before joining the NBA). The dude was just getting better every year.

FlashBolt
11-04-2015, 06:25 PM
This is so stupid. Part of being top 10 is staying healthy and if guys can't stay healthy, they shouldn't be top 10. Wade was relatively healthy for his prime years so it's really difficult to say how much better he would be. I think a better example would be guys like Greg Oden, Grant Hill, Penny. But none of these guys have top 10 potential. You look at the top 10 list, It will take a lot to surpass those guys healthy or not healthy. If T-Mac was healthy, he would not be better than LeBron. Neither would Grant Hill, Penny, etc.

Saddletramp
11-04-2015, 06:33 PM
People really think Brandon Roy would have been a top ten player ever if he would have stayed healthy? Top ten ever?

FlashBolt
11-04-2015, 06:47 PM
People really think Brandon Roy would have been a top ten player ever if he would have stayed healthy? Top ten ever?

That's what confused me too. He would have been a top ten (maybe?) player during his time but I doubt he even sniffs top 30-40 ever. Grant Hill/Penny/Oden/T-Mac/Walton/Yao are the best from the pack. Yao could have been really exciting to watch... such a skilled player.

Shlumpledink
11-04-2015, 07:26 PM
Hakeem Olajuwon. Injuries to Ralph Sampson hurt his career. He'd be lugging around more championships which seem to carry a lot of sway with people when evaluating overall ability

ewing
11-04-2015, 08:29 PM
Agree about Wade. Dude was a beast on D before the injury. Rarely gets blocks now, but he was an elite shutdown defender back in the day. Just to balance out the O for those wanting to see a complete player.

Although probably not top 10, Drazen Petrovic had the chance to be pretty elite too. Career not cut short specifically by injury, but rather fatality (waaaay too soon). He was the original Steph Curry. In his final year (his 6th in the league), he averaged 0.518 FG%, 0.449 3P%, and 0.841 FT%. By comparison, Steph last year (his 6th in the league) averaged 0.487 FG%, 0.443 3P%, and 0.914 FT%. (Granted, Steph had better assists, rebounds, etc., but the systems the teams ran were different.) He once scored 112 points (40/60 FG, 10/20 3Pts, 22/22 FT) in a professional game in the Yugoslavian league (before joining the NBA). The dude was just getting better every year.

Drazen did not have the all around game Steph does but man could he shoot. I recently heard Reggie say he had the fastest release ever and its not close. He wasn't going to do it off the bounce the way Steph does but pure range shooting it didn't get better

Hawkeye15
11-04-2015, 08:31 PM
Walton is a great answer. He was the first one I thought of.

McGrady potentially as well. His peak was ridic. If he could have been healthy most of his career, he may have ended up in there.

flea
11-04-2015, 08:53 PM
Far Inferior numbers to what Bron was doing at the same stage. Defense was average as well.

Now Tmac, THOSE are superstar numbers surpassed by few and a far more versatile defender as well.

You must be joking. Hill was a great defender, in college and the pros. Even after his ankle was shredded he made a living as a defense-first role player even though he was in his mid to late 30s. T-Mac and him were comparable in their primes maybe, but Hill was a way headier player and it allowed him to have a solid career post-prime and post-injury. T-Mac was washed up before 30.

The only real answer in this thread is Walton. Rick Barry and Grant Hill are slight possibilities. There was no way T-Mac, Wade, Webber or whoever else was going to be a top 10 player.

Hawkeye15
11-04-2015, 09:01 PM
I feel like Grant Hill gets really overrated in the "what could have been" convo

JasonJohnHorn
11-04-2015, 09:03 PM
Hakeem Olajuwon. Injuries to Ralph Sampson hurt his career. He'd be lugging around more championships which seem to carry a lot of sway with people when evaluating overall ability

Hakeem is in most people's top-ten, no? I can't name ten players better than him.

Hawkeye15
11-04-2015, 09:04 PM
man people who didn't understand how awesome Walton was before his feet decided to retire at age 27 (with plenty of injuries prior), missed out. He was absolutely dominant.

flea
11-04-2015, 09:06 PM
I feel like Grant Hill gets really overrated in the "what could have been" convo

Why? He had an elite inside-out forward's game and his passing was better than anyone at the forward position at the time. His passing was legitimately on the level of Bird, Pippen, and Lebron. Plus he was a 2-way player. If anything he gets underrated because he was only really healthy for 5 years in the NBA. Not to mention his domination of college...

flea
11-04-2015, 09:08 PM
Plus during those 5 years Hill was actually healthy his team was poor but still won, and there were some dudes named Michael and Shaquille around getting all the accolades.

Chronz
11-04-2015, 09:27 PM
You must be joking. Hill was a great defender, in college and the pros. Even after his ankle was shredded he made a living as a defense-first role player even though he was in his mid to late 30s. T-Mac and him were comparable in their primes maybe, but Hill was a way headier player and it allowed him to have a solid career post-prime and post-injury. T-Mac was washed up before 30.

The only real answer in this thread is Walton. Rick Barry and Grant Hill are slight possibilities. There was no way T-Mac, Wade, Webber or whoever else was going to be a top 10 player.


Its no joke, his defense was average but elite during his role player days. There is no comparison, Tmac was better on both ends and was a MUCH better playoff performer, where Hill had a tendency to let down. Tmac was good enough to skip College altogether so I dont really care about that.

And no, even Grant Hill has stated that all those years of not playing saved the wear and tear on his knees, yes it robbed him of his prime but also extended his career. He was more nimble than most guys his age would be and he was a stout 220 IIRC so he could also be physical. I still remember that game where he completely took Blake out of it. Those were the days when he was checking 1-4 depending on the opposition. That wasn't Hill during his peak IMO. Tmac on the other hand was checking just as many players but he had the added responsibility of anchoring some of their zone schemes as a defacto center basically (Something I've never seen Hill do).


Bill Walton is a great choice, he had the team to win and a massive impact but I just dont think his production levels would merit Top-10. I guess we would ignore that if he won enough but really, whos he bumping and how many chips would it take cuz he definitely didn't have the numbers.

flea
11-04-2015, 09:42 PM
His defense was not average in his prime, IDK where you get this. Hill was my favorite in the 90s because I'm a Duke fan, and that's just not true. I know you're a big T-Mac fan so we're probably not going to see eye to eye on this, but Hill's the only one of the two to ever win an award for his defense, and his ability on that end extended his career.

As for "saving his knees," that may be true in isolation but from 22-30 (when Hill entered) compared to McGrady he only played about 70 games less. Conversely, after 30, Hill played 544 games to Mcgrady's 124 (16281 minutes vs. 2523). I don't think 1700 minutes or so before age 30 allowed Hill to play almost 7 times the amount of minutes after age 30.

What T-Mac did in a gimmicky zone on a bad team with average defenses (at best, terrible at times) doesn't impress me. Horford's ability to play in the middle of a 2-3/3-2 hybrid zone actually leads to top 10 defenses - that impresses me. Hill's Pistons being generally around the top 10 in defense + being turned into a defensive role player impresses me. Both players have crap playoff resumes because they weren't good enough to take their crap teams much further.

I don't see them as terribly different legacies overall - T-Mac was a greater scorer but Hill was a dominant all-around forward. Both had junk teams and wasted their best years with those junk teams.

Jamiecballer
11-04-2015, 10:11 PM
I feel like Grant Hill gets really overrated in the "what could have been" convo
Enormously.He could have been a perennial all star. That's it.

IKnowHoops
11-05-2015, 02:02 AM
Hakeem is in most people's top-ten, no? I can't name ten players better than him.

Exactly

Furthermore, the answer is none.

1.Bron
2.Mike
3.Shaq
4.Kareem
5.Wilt
6.Dream
7.Drob
8.Duncan
9.KG
10.Durant

I guess its possible for one of either Wade or Tmac to take Durant's spot, but as much as I love Wade and Tmac, I like what prime Durant brings over what Tmac or Wade brings in there respective primes. Its super close between these three though. I could probably change my mind a few times on who I want if I sat down and starting watching tape.

IKnowHoops
11-05-2015, 02:09 AM
I have no idea what the stats say, but I would of said that Grant hill was a better defender than Tracy Mcgrady. I would say that at one point, after Jordan and Pippen, Grant was the 3rd best wing defender in the game. Grant hill was a great player. No way a top 10 player, and not better the Tmac overall, but better defensively, by a little bit.

flea
11-05-2015, 02:12 AM
Durant and KG over Kobe, Bird, Magic etc.? Don't ever change bro.

Chronz
11-05-2015, 02:51 AM
His defense was not average in his prime, IDK where you get this.
From watching him play. IDK where you got the idea that he was anything but.


Hill was my favorite in the 90s because I'm a Duke fan, and that's just not true. I know you're a big T-Mac fan so we're probably not going to see eye to eye on this, but Hill's the only one of the two to ever win an award for his defense, and his ability on that end extended his career.

Same here, I actually only got turned onto T-Mac because I wanted to keep up with Hill. I know you're a big fan of his but I love both guys. As for his award, it was against College kids. Iverson was considered a great defender in College but come time to play in the L, he was anything but dominant. I already agreed he was a great defender during his Phx days. Tmac managed to be an impactful defender while actually carrying the offense. Which playoff matchup stands out for you defensively? I can think of games for every series with Mac and I can find the reports/quotes from various sources for Tmac instantly.


As for "saving his knees," that may be true in isolation but from 22-30 (when Hill entered) compared to McGrady he only played about 70 games less. Conversely, after 30, Hill played 544 games to Mcgrady's 124 (16281 minutes vs. 2523). I don't think 1700 minutes or so before age 30 allowed Hill to play almost 7 times the amount of minutes after age 30.

Well we're quoting Hill here so its most definitely true, the guy knows his body better than both of us. Not sure why ur cut off ends at 30 when Hill was done as a star by 27 but Hill only played 482 games (18495 Mins) till age 30 vs 814(28135 Mins) for Tmac, not counting playoffs.

Tmac also came in under developed physically, with a curvature in his spine that his Dr warned would not last long, this on top of undergoing Microfracture surgery among other issues. Thats a tall task to overcome but he adapted his game to remain an All-NBA force. Definitely gonna disagree that those werent more influential, especially given the long layoffs Hill had.


What T-Mac did in a gimmicky zone on a bad team with average defenses (at best, terrible at times) doesn't impress me. Horford's ability to play in the middle of a 2-3/3-2 hybrid zone actually leads to top 10 defenses - that impresses me.
Well it impressed enough GM's to rank him the 2nd most versatile defender in the league at one point. Also has impressed coaches and analysts alike with his playoff defense (though he slacked during his final Orlando years RS wise). Either way, its a talent that Hill did not possess. That impresses me more than vague analysis.


Hill's Pistons being generally around the top 10 in defense + being turned into a defensive role player impresses me.
Not me. As an example, Tmacs team in Houston was ELITE defensively, even during the times when he himself was a crap defender. Your teammates matter so much on defense that this vague analysis says nothing. It would be like me pointing to Tmac's superior offenses as why hes a better offensive player, only in that case we can actually point to his superior individual production to go with it. Thats not the case here.



Both players have crap playoff resumes because they weren't good enough to take their crap teams much further.

Crap teammates prevents them from winning, but it only prevented Hill from playing up to par.
The difference is in the details, vague analysis doesn't matter more than actual statistics.


I don't see them as terribly different legacies overall - T-Mac was a greater scorer but Hill was a dominant all-around forward. Both had junk teams and wasted their best years with those junk teams.
Nah, Tmac is actually overrated as a scorer, its his floor game that made him truly special. Microscopic turnover rates despite his immense load is what made him more efficient.

Not seeing whats so dominant (Relatively speaking) when hes inferior on both ends. Simply not productive enough and I dont recall many signature defensive moments come playoffs. With Tmac, it was practically every series. He made Big Dog his *****. His D against Dirk inspired the likes of George Karl among others. The only problem was Tmac couldn't guard everyone.

numba1CHANGsta
11-05-2015, 03:06 AM
Grant Hill, Penny, T-Mac, Walton, Webber

I wouldnt see any of them be a top 10 all time but would def make a case for top 20. Hill and T-Mac prob had the best chance of being top 10

Chronz
11-05-2015, 03:27 AM
Why? He had an elite inside-out forward's game and his passing was better than anyone at the forward position at the time. His passing was legitimately on the level of Bird, Pippen, and Lebron. Plus he was a 2-way player. If anything he gets underrated because he was only really healthy for 5 years in the NBA. Not to mention his domination of college...

Ur definitely overrating him. From what I remember he didn't really develop his jumper until his final year in Detroit. Before that he was mainly just a slasher with an inconsistent jumper. I know he himself admitted that he really worked hard on his jumper during the lockout of 99. Specifically from about 15 feet and out. Citing that he noticed it was the jumper teams kept giving him so it sounds like he was mostly uncontested out there.

Looking at the stats, they back up his assertions, he really only ever had 1 decent year from 3 but from mid range here are the numbers.

8-16FT
1998: 37%
1999: 47%
2000: 38.8%

16-24FT
1998: 33.6%
1999: 35%
2000: 42.9%


The numbers for 97 are much better but it was on lower usage and definitely less contested.
(43 and 45% respectively)


Still, given his lack of range and middling efficiency, I'd hardly call that an Elite Inside-Out game, more like an elite handle/driving game with a decent jumper.

Chronz
11-05-2015, 03:45 AM
I have no idea what the stats say, but I would of said that Grant hill was a better defender than Tracy Mcgrady. I would say that at one point, after Jordan and Pippen, Grant was the 3rd best wing defender in the game. Grant hill was a great player. No way a top 10 player, and not better the Tmac overall, but better defensively, by a little bit.
Not even close. Just off the top of my head we had Stacey Augmen, Sprewell, Eddie Jones, Derrick McKey, Doug Christie, Dan Majerle , Anthony Mason+Rodmen if you include the hybrid forwards.

Tmac was definitely better too. Stars are inconsistent defensively for the most part during the RS. But the playoffs, those are easier to examine. Point to his most dominant defensive showing, I dont recall too many (save for his Phx days). He doesn't necessarily have to lock someone down but just make it tough on the opposing team, showing immense versatility or something. With Mac, he was guarding 1-4 and even manning his teams zone defense as a center. THATS versatility. His defense has drawn praise from coaches, analysts and GM's alike. Help me find something on Hill cuz I remember him being average to barely above it.

Chronz
11-05-2015, 03:53 AM
Grant Hill, Penny, T-Mac, Walton, Webber

I wouldnt see any of them be a top 10 all time but would def make a case for top 20. Hill and T-Mac prob had the best chance of being top 10

I dont see why not.

Wade is another. Dudes knees have gone through hell, began in College. He missed out on quite a few playoff runs because of various injuries but I guess given his play style, its kind of unfair to suggest he always remain healthy.

For Wade I think Miami wins the chip when Shaq first got there if both of them stay healthy. That Chicago series looks alot better for them if Wade is healthy. The series vs the Spurs was awful.

QueensG718
11-05-2015, 06:44 AM
Penny hardaway

PhillyFaninLA
11-05-2015, 07:25 AM
Hill is always the one I think of...but if I can go away from injury for a second...Derreck Coleman if he had any heart could have been top 3 or even at the top....when he played with heart no one could touch him offensively or defensively....he just didn't have any love for the game and he add as much talent as any player I've seen.

Hawkeye15
11-05-2015, 10:51 AM
Hill is always the one I think of...but if I can go away from injury for a second...Derreck Coleman if he had any heart could have been top 3 or even at the top....when he played with heart no one could touch him offensively or defensively....he just didn't have any love for the game and he add as much talent as any player I've seen.

Derrick Coleman is one of the biggest wastes of talent in basketball history.

SoxPatsCeltsBs
11-05-2015, 11:00 AM
Greg Oden and Derrick Rose

R. Johnson#3
11-05-2015, 11:44 AM
Grant Hill is the first one that comes to mind for me. Guy was due to break out and that Magic team with him and T-Mac was destined for greatness. It's a shame we never got to see a full season of those 2 together.

flea
11-05-2015, 03:04 PM
Still, given his lack of range and middling efficiency, I'd hardly call that an Elite Inside-Out game, more like an elite handle/driving game with a decent jumper.

He and T-Mac both had the misfortune of playing in the strongest defensive era, neither one had "middling efficiency." Hill was 48% from 2 in the 3 years before his injury (which you're right, 2000 was his best year when his jumper was better) and Mcgrady was 46-47% once his prime started and pre-decline. That's probably more like 50% to 52% (Kawhi Leonard's 2 point rates) today. Hill also had a pretty good post game.

flea
11-05-2015, 03:10 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BP16tRyYnlU

Some Grant Hill picking on geezers Pippen and MJ.

nickdymez
11-05-2015, 06:03 PM
Easily grant hill for me. The guy was so ahead of his time and so much better than everyone it was crazy. He's what all of these young players are modeled after imo

Jamiecballer
11-05-2015, 06:34 PM
I'm absolutely shocked at how many people think Grant Hill was this good. His injuries seem to have actually helped him. Grant Hill wasn't even as good as Vince Carter, a contemporary.

flea
11-05-2015, 06:42 PM
I'm absolutely shocked at how many people think Grant Hill was this good. His injuries seem to have actually helped him. Grant Hill wasn't even as good as Vince Carter, a contemporary.

Yeah right dude, Hill was Lebron before Lebron. Less athletic and big but way more skilled. If Lebron had Hill's footwork he'd still be the consensus best player in the game. Carter was an athlete who eventually became a shooter.

Jamiecballer
11-05-2015, 06:44 PM
Yeah right dude, Hill was Lebron before Lebron. Less athletic and big but way more skilled. If Lebron had Hill's footwork he'd still be the consensus best player in the game. Carter was an athlete who eventually became a shooter.
Interesting comparison because honest to god what I considered saying previous was that Grant Hill was a super lite version of Lebron.

JLynn943
11-05-2015, 07:22 PM
Would have loved to see Yao stay healthy. Tough to say he'd be top 10, but if both he and T-Mac were healthy they could have built a legacy that maybe gets him consideration.

PowerHouse
11-05-2015, 08:07 PM
He wasnt in the NBA in his youth but injuries really derailed what would have been a ridiculous career for Arvydas Sabonis.

JasonJohnHorn
11-05-2015, 10:03 PM
Hill is always the one I think of...but if I can go away from injury for a second...Derreck Coleman if he had any heart could have been top 3 or even at the top....when he played with heart no one could touch him offensively or defensively....he just didn't have any love for the game and he add as much talent as any player I've seen.

Yeah... if Coleman had Jordan or K Malone's work ethic, he would have been as dominant as Shaq and far more rounded a player.

JasonJohnHorn
11-05-2015, 10:16 PM
I'm absolutely shocked at how many people think Grant Hill was this good. His injuries seem to have actually helped him. Grant Hill wasn't even as good as Vince Carter, a contemporary.

Carter never played defence; Hill was elite. He was able to lead a team in scoring, rebounding, assists, and steals. I've never seen Carter lead his team in anything other than scoring.

You can't even be serious to suggest that Hill was not as good as Carter. The only season they were both in their prime as 'contemporaries', Hill was better. They score the same about of points with roughly the same TS%, but got more boards, assists, and steals, with less personal fouls.

Jamiecballer
11-05-2015, 10:28 PM
Carter never played defence; Hill was elite. He was able to lead a team in scoring, rebounding, assists, and steals. I've never seen Carter lead his team in anything other than scoring.

You can't even be serious to suggest that Hill was not as good as Carter. The only season they were both in their prime as 'contemporaries', Hill was better. They score the same about of points with roughly the same TS%, but got more boards, assists, and steals, with less personal fouls.
Whenever I watched Grant Hill play in his early days I always wondered what the big deal was. And I certainly never would have put Hill in the category of elite defenders.

Kashmir13579
11-05-2015, 10:48 PM
Deff Penny, Grant, and Tmac

Bernard King?

Kashmir13579
11-05-2015, 10:49 PM
Would have loved to see Yao stay healthy. Tough to say he'd be top 10, but if both he and T-Mac were healthy they could have built a legacy that maybe gets him consideration. omg I forgot Yao

IKnowHoops
11-06-2015, 01:44 AM
Carter never played defence; Hill was elite. He was able to lead a team in scoring, rebounding, assists, and steals. I've never seen Carter lead his team in anything other than scoring.

You can't even be serious to suggest that Hill was not as good as Carter. The only season they were both in their prime as 'contemporaries', Hill was better. They score the same about of points with roughly the same TS%, but got more boards, assists, and steals, with less personal fouls.

I love Vince Carter, but I would say that prime Grant was better than Prime Vince by a slim margin, but he was better.

PowerHouse
11-06-2015, 03:27 AM
Idk about top 10 all time but Amare Stoudamire couldve cracked top 20 if it werent for the injuries.

PowerHouse
11-06-2015, 03:28 AM
We're on page 5 now and no Bulls homers have mentioned D-Rose?

slashsnake
11-06-2015, 04:05 AM
We're on page 5 now and no Bulls homers have mentioned D-Rose?

Would be a good one. Jay Williams would be where you get a bit homerish (I liked him, but not looking like he would be elite).

Not top 10 all time, but I thought Antonio McDyess would have been a long time all star if he hadn't gotten hurt. 21 point 12 board year before he went out. Getting a nice shooting touch to extend his range (Det and SA loved that later in his career). Smart guy...

FlashBolt
11-06-2015, 07:17 PM
Derrick Rose would be a good option but I don't think he ever had the ceiling that some of these other guys had. Also have to add that Rose would have a much tougher time competing against the PG's of today. At his MVP season, would he even be a top 5 PG? Tough to say.. I think CP3/Curry/Westbrook/Wall/Lillard/Irving/Rose are all top 5 PG talent. Still, that Rose would never be a top 10 player. He can thank LeBron for not reaching the Finals.

LakersIn5
11-07-2015, 03:55 AM
Bynum. Never was 100% because of injuries but still was a top 3 center in the league even if he's just at 80%

ewing
11-07-2015, 09:09 AM
Derrick Rose would be a good option but I don't think he ever had the ceiling that some of these other guys had. Also have to add that Rose would have a much tougher time competing against the PG's of today. At his MVP season, would he even be a top 5 PG? Tough to say.. I think CP3/Curry/Westbrook/Wall/Lillard/Irving/Rose are all top 5 PG talent. Still, that Rose would never be a top 10 player. He can thank LeBron for not reaching the Finals.

I don't think a healthy prime rose is a top 5 point right now. I don't think he was the top PG then either.

slashsnake
11-07-2015, 09:13 AM
Derrick Rose would be a good option but I don't think he ever had the ceiling that some of these other guys had. Also have to add that Rose would have a much tougher time competing against the PG's of today. At his MVP season, would he even be a top 5 PG? Tough to say.. I think CP3/Curry/Westbrook/Wall/Lillard/Irving/Rose are all top 5 PG talent. Still, that Rose would never be a top 10 player. He can thank LeBron for not reaching the Finals.

I don't know... He played a really really slow offensive system there, so they weren't running down the court and putting up shots quickly.

I guess I may be a bit biased... but I remember sitting at a bar in Florida with my wife, and my brother and his wife and my brother and I both kinda just tuned the wives out watching him as a rookie in that first ever playoff game vs. the Celtics. That was amazing.

His MVP year was MVP worthy. I know, now that we've seen banged up Rose it doesn't feel it. But the 3rd guy in the past 40 years to have a 2000 point 600 assist year (MJ and Lebron). He was so good on the road that year, led them to 60+ wins and had that offense working so much better than it has without him. Strike year they were on pace for 55 wins when he played (67 win full year), then came the injuries. I honestly think last years 50 win bulls team, outside of Rose is a LOT more talented than the 62 win Rose led bulls team.

I just have a hard time saying he wouldn't have had a great ceiling. Rookie of the year his first year, all star his 2nd, MVP his third...

mightybosstone
11-07-2015, 10:29 AM
To be honest, I don't think there's a single player that would have cracked the top 10 if not for injuries. Penny and Hill at their peaks do not even deserve to be spoken in the same breath as all-time great wings and guards like MJ, Magic, Lebron, Kobe and Bird. McGrady's peak is actually worth having a conversation about, but it was short lived and even if he stays healthy in Houston, no way does he belong in the top 10 discussion. Maybe top 25, but I think that's a stretch.

The only guy I can think of who has a remotely decent case for this is Bill Walton, who essentially got only two peak years, during which he won MVP, DPOY and a championship. But even Walton's numbers are extremely pedestrian when you compare them to the likes of Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt and Shaq. At best, maybe he ends up in that top 15 discussion with Moses as the two of them would have had an amazing rivalry in the 80s.

Chronz
11-07-2015, 01:06 PM
To be honest, I don't think there's a single player that would have cracked the top 10 if not for injuries. Penny and Hill at their peaks do not even deserve to be spoken in the same breath as all-time great wings and guards like MJ, Magic, Lebron, Kobe and Bird. McGrady's peak is actually worth having a conversation about, but it was short lived and even if he stays healthy in Houston, no way does he belong in the top 10 discussion. Maybe top 25, but I think that's a stretch.

The only guy I can think of who has a remotely decent case for this is Bill Walton, who essentially got only two peak years, during which he won MVP, DPOY and a championship. But even Walton's numbers are extremely pedestrian when you compare them to the likes of Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt and Shaq. At best, maybe he ends up in that top 15 discussion with Moses as the two of them would have had an amazing rivalry in the 80s.

Umm Tmacs peak was shortlived because of those injuries, his game changed so much by the time he got in Houston. The only vintage Mac we got in H-Town was come playoffs. And yes even that Tmac would have challenged for it.

Jamiecballer
11-07-2015, 01:10 PM
McGrady was every bit as good as Kobe. Better even. He could have been the number 2 SG for sure.

Chronz
11-07-2015, 01:15 PM
Bynum. Never was 100% because of injuries but still was a top 3 center in the league even if he's just at 80%

Very true. Bynum could have transitioned the Lakers into the next era and gotten Kobe another chip in the process. Those 2 would have gone down as our version of Magic/Kareem, elevated both of their status. Kobe may have gone down as a Top-4 guy in the eyes of those who value chips. Bynum was a force defensively but he and Pau became a poor fit once he forced himself on people. He had the drive IMO, he wasn't satisfied with winning as a role player, he wanted to lead a team. That he just couldn't wait alil longer hurts him.

PowerHouse
11-07-2015, 03:09 PM
The only guy I can think of who has a remotely decent case for this is Bill Walton, who essentially got only two peak years, during which he won MVP, DPOY and a championship. But even Walton's numbers are extremely pedestrian when you compare them to the likes of Kareem, Hakeem, Wilt and Shaq. At best, maybe he ends up in that top 15 discussion with Moses as the two of them would have had an amazing rivalry in the 80s.

Sorry to nit-pick but DPOY wasnt established until the 82-83 season. Walton was never a winner of that award.

Sadds The Gr8
11-07-2015, 03:20 PM
No offense but half of these answers are terrible. Gilbert Arenas would have been a top 10 player of all-time? Seriously? Again I love Grant Hill. I met him in Orlando. Great guy. But he was healthy up until he was 28 years old. After 6 full seasons he had 0 MVPs, 0 all-defensive teams, 0 playoff series won, and a grand total of 1 all-nba 1st team. That player was going to be one of the 10 greatest players of all-time? Let's not exaggerate.

Bill Walton is the best answer imo.

this.

People are just naming talented players who's careers got derailed. Grant Hill, Webber, and T-Mac woulda been regarded as greater players, but no way they make top 10 if healthy...

Walton was the first name that came to my mind also, but i'd lean toward nobody.

Sadds The Gr8
11-07-2015, 03:27 PM
I'm absolutely shocked at how many people think Grant Hill was this good. His injuries seem to have actually helped him. Grant Hill wasn't even as good as Vince Carter, a contemporary.

i think its the sexy per game stats

Chronz
11-07-2015, 03:54 PM
this.

People are just naming talented players who's careers got derailed. Grant Hill, Webber, and T-Mac woulda been regarded as greater players, but no way they make top 10 if healthy...

Walton was the first name that came to my mind also, but i'd lean toward nobody.

Why not? Who are the untouchables? Are they untouchable because you couldn't conceive of these guys winning a championship in any year or not being able to win multiple? Whats the magic number on championships won to make the top10?

Sadds The Gr8
11-07-2015, 03:58 PM
Why not? Who are the untouchables? Are they untouchable because you couldn't conceive of these guys winning a championship in any year or not being able to win multiple? Whats the magic number on championships won to make the top10?
Well I didn't even think about winning and championships. I just had stats and eye-test in my mind. It'd be hard to come up with the hypothetical of whether they woulda won titles or not unless you're talking about the teams Hill and Tmac played for in their primes. I don't recall either of them being on serious title contenders in their primes.

I guess Webber becomes interesting when you consider that tho, since a couple of those Kings teams were great, but I don't think he's efficient enough to crack that list.

mightybosstone
11-08-2015, 05:14 AM
Umm Tmacs peak was shortlived because of those injuries, his game changed so much by the time he got in Houston. The only vintage Mac we got in H-Town was come playoffs. And yes even that Tmac would have challenged for it.
I dunno man. I think he peaked in Orlando and was just never that same guy in Houston. He still had at least three seasons of at least 66 games as a Rocket and never came close to his Orlando production playing for a bad basketball team.

As a Rockets fan that loved McGrady to death, I've always been a supporter of him in all-time discussions, but top 10? If we really look at his numbers, I just don't think the guy makes it even if he's healthy. He was phenomenal in that 02-03 season, but it was the one season in his entire career he finished with a TS% over 54% or a WS over .200. He was a career 43.5% shooter and wasn't remotely good enough beyond the arc or the charity stripe to make up for that. Frankly, he was just a very inefficient offensive player, and when you consider that he was (at best) an average defender, what case could you possibly make for him in the top 10? I just don't see any scenario where I rank a healthy McGrady over any of the all-time great wing players.

mightybosstone
11-08-2015, 05:18 AM
Sorry to nit-pick but DPOY wasnt established until the 82-83 season. Walton was never a winner of that award.

Was going off the top of my head. My apologies. But if the award had been around, the guy would have had a damn good case. He was an All-Defensive 1st team center both of those seasons, so he likely would have won that award at least once.

slashsnake
11-08-2015, 06:18 AM
Was going off the top of my head. My apologies. But if the award had been around, the guy would have had a damn good case. He was an All-Defensive 1st team center both of those seasons, so he likely would have won that award at least once.

Yeah, he's the only one of the "could have's" that I'd say really could have been top 10 all time. The best college player easily... 3 college player of the year awards and led his team to 2 championships there.

He was banged up a little his first couple years. Then his 3rd season he was finally healthy. Best defensive player in NBA (led league in boards and blocks and was 1st team all defensive). Finished 2nd in MVP voting to Kareem, won a championship and finals MVP with a team that was a 37 win team the year before. Next year won the league MVP when he led his team in points, assists, blocks and rebounds per game.