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Shammyguy3
10-27-2015, 12:20 AM
If you think someone should be added to the poll PLEASE don't ***** about it. Just mention in the thread that he should be added to the next poll and if the player's all-time standing is relatively close to the number we're at there shouldn't be a problem adding him to the poll.


So, who does everyone have?
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Tim Duncan
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Lebron James
8. Magic Johnson
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Bill Russell
12. Moses Malone
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. David Robinson
16. Julius Erving
17. Charles Barkley
18. Kevin Garnett
19. ?

Redrum187
10-27-2015, 12:42 AM
I'll go with the 2nd best PF in the history of the NBA, Dirk Nowitzki. :P

FlashBolt
10-27-2015, 01:17 AM
Not sure how you can't go Dirk here. Pretty sure that previous All-Time ranking convinced people of Dirk's greatness too.

mngopher35
10-27-2015, 01:45 AM
Not sure how you can't go Dirk here. Pretty sure that previous All-Time ranking convinced people of Dirk's greatness too.

I haven't personally seen a ton of him but I think Hondo could be in the conversation. I am far from an expert about his career and personally think Dirk but if someone said Hondo I wouldn't argue too much (nor could I without relying mostly on stats and what I have read).

FlashBolt
10-27-2015, 02:32 AM
I haven't personally seen a ton of him but I think Hondo could be in the conversation. I am far from an expert about his career and personally think Dirk but if someone said Hondo I wouldn't argue too much (nor could I without relying mostly on stats and what I have read).

Dirk has faced some of the greatest PF's ever and some really good ones as well. He's faced far more competitive teams than Havlicek did. Statistically, I don't think it's even close. Dirk wins in both basic/advanced by a longshot. I think it was you who argued KG>Bill Walton in the other thread due to pace. Well, the pace difference in Hondo vs Dirk comparison is astronomical. Some of his teams went to a pace of 127. Plus, the SF/SG competition was fairly weak back then. Dirk had to face Duncan/KG/Webber/Amare/Bosh/Sheed, etc. Just a huge list of NBA greats. Hondo is by far more achieved but the level of competition doesn't really compare. Winning 8 games, weak conference, stacked team, it would be a travesty if they didn't win as many as they did.

YAALREADYKNO
10-27-2015, 08:48 AM
This is Dirk without a doubt

mightybosstone
10-27-2015, 09:16 AM
I thought Dirk deserved a slight edge over KG, so clearly I think he's the option here. But I'm surprised the voting has been this one-sided. I think 4-5 guys in this poll absolutely have a strong case to be made here.

YAALREADYKNO
10-27-2015, 09:30 AM
The nba season is back tonight!!!

Hawkeye15
10-27-2015, 09:33 AM
I am voting Malone just cause

KnicksorBust
10-27-2015, 11:55 AM
John Havlicek.

4-time All-NBA 1st team
7-time All-NBA 2nd team
8-time NBA Champion.

Elite two-way player. Legendary stamina. Give me him over the one-legged fadeaway and one magical season.

mngopher35
10-27-2015, 01:44 PM
Dirk has faced some of the greatest PF's ever and some really good ones as well. He's faced far more competitive teams than Havlicek did. Statistically, I don't think it's even close. Dirk wins in both basic/advanced by a longshot. I think it was you who argued KG>Bill Walton in the other thread due to pace. Well, the pace difference in Hondo vs Dirk comparison is astronomical. Some of his teams went to a pace of 127. Plus, the SF/SG competition was fairly weak back then. Dirk had to face Duncan/KG/Webber/Amare/Bosh/Sheed, etc. Just a huge list of NBA greats. Hondo is by far more achieved but the level of competition doesn't really compare. Winning 8 games, weak conference, stacked team, it would be a travesty if they didn't win as many as they did.

There is a good portion of what you said that I agree with and it is why I am taking Dirk. I think he is the better talent and if I could choose one of these guys to lead my team its him. I don't know enough about the context behind Hondos stats or championships to really gauge how impressive they are though just some basics. Also you didn't talk about defense where Hondo certainly had the edge.

All in all there isn't much of a point in me arguing here since we agree, I am just saying that I don't think Dirk is the ONLY choice. I will be going Dirk since I think a decent part of the case for Hondo comes with his team success and I prefer individual talent more than having better teammates as I said last thread.

YAALREADYKNO
10-27-2015, 02:30 PM
I'll go with the 2nd best PF in the history of the NBA, Dirk Nowitzki. :P

Lol

teddygreen17
10-27-2015, 02:38 PM
John Havlicek, then Malone, then Dirk.

KnicksorBust
10-27-2015, 02:55 PM
John Havlicek, then Malone, then Dirk.

:clap:

ewing
10-27-2015, 03:12 PM
John Havlicek.

4-time All-NBA 1st team
7-time All-NBA 2nd team
8-time NBA Champion.

Elite two-way player. Legendary stamina. Give me him over the one-legged fadeaway and one magical season.


and over that stupid sky hook too

Chronz
10-27-2015, 03:15 PM
There is a good portion of what you said that I agree with and it is why I am taking Dirk. I think he is the better talent and if I could choose one of these guys to lead my team its him. I don't know enough about the context behind Hondos stats or championships to really gauge how impressive they are though just some basics. Also you didn't talk about defense where Hondo certainly had the edge.

All in all there isn't much of a point in me arguing here since we agree, I am just saying that I don't think Dirk is the ONLY choice. I will be going Dirk since I think a decent part of the case for Hondo comes with his team success and I prefer individual talent more than having better teammates as I said last thread.

I seen you mention how having superior teammates can help ur performances but Hondo is an example of someone who performed better individually once his dynastic teammates left his side.

KnicksorBust
10-27-2015, 03:19 PM
There is a good portion of what you said that I agree with and it is why I am taking Dirk. I think he is the better talent and if I could choose one of these guys to lead my team its him. I don't know enough about the context behind Hondos stats or championships to really gauge how impressive they are though just some basics. Also you didn't talk about defense where Hondo certainly had the edge.

All in all there isn't much of a point in me arguing here since we agree, I am just saying that I don't think Dirk is the ONLY choice. I will be going Dirk since I think a decent part of the case for Hondo comes with his team success and I prefer individual talent more than having better teammates as I said last thread.

His most impressive runs were in 66, 68, 69, and 74.

In 66 he was the 2nd leading scorer for the Celtics averaging 23ppg / 10rpg / 4apg playing 43.1mpg
In 68 he was by far their leading scorer in the finals, averaging 27ppg / 9rpg / 7apg playing 48.5mpg (one minute played less than Russell that series).
In 69 he was again by far their leading scorer in the finals, averaging 28.3ppg / 11rpg / 4apg playing all 48mpg. That's right he played EVERY MINUTE OF THE SERIES. He did not see the bench.
In 74 he was again their leading scorer in the finals, averaging 26.4ppg / 7.7 rpg / 4.7 apg playing 47.1 mpg. That year he won Finals MVP.

This is why little things like his defensive prowess as a 5x all-nba defensive 1st team member and 3x all-nab defensive 2nd team member and stamina to run his opponents up and down the floor should be admired and looked upon as legendary accomplishments.

Dirk in his lone title win:
He was the leading scorer averaging 26ppg / 9.7 rpg / 2 apg playing 40.4 mpg. Look I give Dirk full credit for his championship but it didn't hurt that Terry/Kidd/Stevenson/Barea went off from the perimeter and he really only did it once. Even if I eat up Havlicek's 74 MVP he still has 3 impressive championship rings as the go-to player of championship teams AND 4 other rings as a role player at the beginning/end of his career.

mngopher35
10-27-2015, 03:51 PM
I seen you mention how having superior teammates can help ur performances but Hondo is an example of someone who performed better individually once his dynastic teammates left his side.

Where I think it gets tough statistically is when you have bad teammates in a playoff setting where the other team can really game plan for just you. I think with the rule changes that might apply a bit more to the modern era but still when it is just you and some average or less talent it gets tougher. Regular season it isn't as big of an issue though.

When he lost the first set of great teammates his playoff production/success went from good to non existent until the new guys (jo jo, Cowens, Chaney) were added and grew together. I believe his best numbers/run came in 74 once that team as a whole was more developed, even though he was 33 years old and should have been declining (like in the RS)?

Honestly I know less about Hondo than most we have been voting for so maybe you can give a little background if I am off. What I have usually seen is that when you have a top level talent with a bad cast it makes it tougher for them in the playoffs (team success wise for sure and many times with stats as well but context is key to determine why). I don't know the context behind Hondo so it is tough for me to give an opinion why it happened since I didn't see it.

mngopher35
10-27-2015, 04:04 PM
His most impressive runs were in 66, 68, 69, and 74.

In 66 he was the 2nd leading scorer for the Celtics averaging 23ppg / 10rpg / 4apg playing 43.1mpg
In 68 he was by far their leading scorer in the finals, averaging 27ppg / 9rpg / 7apg playing 48.5mpg (one minute played less than Russell that series).
In 69 he was again by far their leading scorer in the finals, averaging 28.3ppg / 11rpg / 4apg playing all 48mpg. That's right he played EVERY MINUTE OF THE SERIES. He did not see the bench.
In 74 he was again their leading scorer in the finals, averaging 26.4ppg / 7.7 rpg / 4.7 apg playing 47.1 mpg. That year he won Finals MVP.

This is why little things like his defensive prowess as a 5x all-nba defensive 1st team member and 3x all-nab defensive 2nd team member and stamina to run his opponents up and down the floor should be admired and looked upon as legendary accomplishments.

Dirk in his lone title win:
He was the leading scorer averaging 26ppg / 9.7 rpg / 2 apg playing 40.4 mpg. Look I give Dirk full credit for his championship but it didn't hurt that Terry/Kidd/Stevenson/Barea went off from the perimeter and he really only did it once. Even if I eat up Havlicek's 74 MVP he still has 3 impressive championship rings as the go-to player of championship teams AND 4 other rings as a role player at the beginning/end of his career.

First of all the numbers aren't adjusted for pace so I think that makes it look better for Hondo, and you didn't get into efficiency which is a great part of Dirk's offense. This is a big reason why the advanced numbers favor Dirk more than just the basics would. I don't want to look up and post all the numbers but I think you get what I mean (if you don't I will try to go in depth).

Outside of that you bring some good points to the table, like I said I think he has a case around here. I will also point out that while he was the best player offensively for many of those teams, it was their defense that was the key. This is different because Dirk lead all of those Mavs teams as the leader offensively with that being their strength and they are usually near the top in the league on this end while Boston was middle of the pack type. So Dirk clearly had more offensive influence IMO and honestly I don't think it was super close.

Chronz
10-27-2015, 04:24 PM
Where I think it gets tough statistically is when you have bad teammates in a playoff setting where the other team can really game plan for just you. I think with the rule changes that might apply a bit more to the modern era but still when it is just you and some average or less talent it gets tougher. Regular season it isn't as big of an issue though.

I think it depends on the caliber of the individual regardless of era. But what do you mean, so in the regular season, are the standards shifted?


When he lost the first set of great teammates his playoff production/success went from good to non existent until the new guys (jo jo, Cowens, Chaney) were added and grew together. I believe his best numbers/run came in 74 once that team as a whole was more developed, even though he was 33 years old and should have been declining (like in the RS)?

Thats what I was alluding to. His numbers improved the minute those superior teammates were gone and once he made the playoffs with that inferior team, his efficiency skyrocketed and would have been better if not for that injury one of those runs. Still, .536 TS% in that 3 year run vs .505 during the final 3 dynastic runs. I would go back further but he was far younger then.



Honestly I know less about Hondo than most we have been voting for so maybe you can give a little background if I am off. What I have usually seen is that when you have a top level talent with a bad cast it makes it tougher for them in the playoffs (team success wise for sure and many times with stats as well but context is key to determine why). I don't know the context behind Hondo so it is tough for me to give an opinion why it happened since I didn't see it.

Thats pretty subjective tho, whats a bad cast may be a decent cast with a different superstar, really depends on how the talents mesh and who they face. Interesting theory that may be true but ur teammates dont completely exonerate your performance either. I guess it depends on the disparity of the comp, what guys have you seen that gave you this impression.

Chronz
10-27-2015, 04:36 PM
Yeah KOB, when discussing prior eras, neglecting the pace difference is a huge deal.

YAALREADYKNO
10-27-2015, 04:47 PM
I think it depends on the caliber of the individual regardless of era. But what do you mean, so in the regular season, are the standards shifted?


Thats what I was alluding to. His numbers improved the minute those superior teammates were gone and once he made the playoffs with that inferior team, his efficiency skyrocketed and would have been better if not for that injury one of those runs. Still, .536 TS% in that 3 year run vs .505 during the final 3 dynastic runs. I would go back further but he was far younger then.



Thats pretty subjective tho, whats a bad cast may be a decent cast with a different superstar, really depends on how the talents mesh and who they face. Interesting theory that may be true but ur teammates dont completely exonerate your performance either. I guess it depends on the disparity of the comp, what guys have you seen that gave you this impression.

He said kg in the last thread

KnicksorBust
10-27-2015, 05:01 PM
His most impressive runs were in 66, 68, 69, and 74.

In 66 he was the 2nd leading scorer for the Celtics averaging 23ppg / 10rpg / 4apg playing 43.1mpg
In 68 he was by far their leading scorer in the finals, averaging 27ppg / 9rpg / 7apg playing 48.5mpg (one minute played less than Russell that series).
In 69 he was again by far their leading scorer in the finals, averaging 28.3ppg / 11rpg / 4apg playing all 48mpg. That's right he played EVERY MINUTE OF THE SERIES. He did not see the bench.
In 74 he was again their leading scorer in the finals, averaging 26.4ppg / 7.7 rpg / 4.7 apg playing 47.1 mpg. That year he won Finals MVP.

This is why little things like his defensive prowess as a 5x all-nba defensive 1st team member and 3x all-nab defensive 2nd team member and stamina to run his opponents up and down the floor should be admired and looked upon as legendary accomplishments.

Dirk in his lone title win:
He was the leading scorer averaging 26ppg / 9.7 rpg / 2 apg playing 40.4 mpg. Look I give Dirk full credit for his championship but it didn't hurt that Terry/Kidd/Stevenson/Barea went off from the perimeter and he really only did it once. Even if I eat up Havlicek's 74 MVP he still has 3 impressive championship rings as the go-to player of championship teams AND 4 other rings as a role player at the beginning/end of his career.

First of all the numbers aren't adjusted for pace so I think that makes it look better for Hondo, and you didn't get into efficiency which is a great part of Dirk's offense. This is a big reason why the advanced numbers favor Dirk more than just the basics would. I don't want to look up and post all the numbers but I think you get what I mean (if you don't I will try to go in depth).

Outside of that you bring some good points to the table, like I said I think he has a case around here. I will also point out that while he was the best player offensively for many of those teams, it was their defense that was the key. This is different because Dirk lead all of those Mavs teams as the leader offensively with that being their strength and they are usually near the top in the league on this end while Boston was middle of the pack type. So Dirk clearly had more offensive influence IMO and honestly I don't think it was super close.

There is more than just scoring to compare. He is not a great rebounder or passer for his position. It took over half a decade for him to become an average defender. He won one title on a team that had multiple players going supernova from 3pt. His efficiency in his LONE championship was below average.

KnicksorBust
10-27-2015, 05:03 PM
Yeah KOB, when discussing prior eras, neglecting the pace difference is a huge deal.

Feel free to explain how my post would have been drastically altered if I adjusted for pace for a comparison of their championship series. The fundamental arguments I am making have very little to do with pace.

WaDe03
10-27-2015, 05:05 PM
Next thread please. Wade is better than everyone left after this thread btw.

mngopher35
10-27-2015, 05:25 PM
I think it depends on the caliber of the individual regardless of era. But what do you mean, so in the regular season, are the standards shifted?

I don't disagree that the caliber of the player ialso important but sometimes they are put in tougher situations. In a sense they are different in the regular season, yes. In the playoffs teams get to really game plan for the other team and you see a lot of different things thrown at you that you might not during the regular season where the focus is more so playing within your own teams system for 82 games. Against good teams this isn't as big of an issue since they have multiple options to attack with but bad teams with just one great player can be really hindered IMO (Lebron in 07 finals was a good example of a big change, many times they just walled him off and left others open). It always depends on context and how things are actually being played but I think it can be much easier to put up your normal (or even better) stats in the regular season than post season with a poor cast.



Thats what I was alluding to. His numbers improved the minute those superior teammates were gone and once he made the playoffs with that inferior team, his efficiency skyrocketed and would have been better if not for that injury one of those runs. Still, .536 TS% in that 3 year run vs .505 during the final 3 dynastic runs. I would go back further but he was far younger then.

Weren't the scoring percentages of the league increasing over this time though? It wasn't a huge difference but the average EFG% in mid 60's to mid 70's increased by about 1.5-2% (while Hondo's went up about 2.5%). On top of this the teams he had in the 70's gave him more help offensively and less defensively so that could also be a reason why his offensive efficiency jumped a little. Just a couple of reasons I can think of that may have attributed to that bump in his shooting efficiency but without watching that might be the best I can do.




Thats pretty subjective tho, whats a bad cast may be a decent cast with a different superstar, really depends on how the talents mesh and who they face. Interesting theory that may be true but ur teammates dont completely exonerate your performance either. I guess it depends on the disparity of the comp, what guys have you seen that gave you this impression.

Totally agree and it is why it is extremely tough for me to be sure about my answers with Hondo. You absolutely need to know the context and have seen the games to know what certain players had to deal with. I also don't think Hondo had a poor cast in the 70's so it is a little different than what I am thinking of.

Many times I think this can be just a series or two of a post season as well because not all teams have the same talent/defensive ability/coaching etc. I mentioned Lebron vs. the Spurs in 07 and the way they walled him off which is an example of an OK cast against superior team. Kobe in 06 had his stats drop big from RS to the playoffs, it wasn't so much his shooting as it was extra attention and different role than he was used to. This caused him to have his highest TOV% of his post season career outside of his rookie year (also well below his average PER, WS/48, BPM).

It doesn't always affect players in the same way or to the same extent and definitely has many variables but having a worse cast can hurt you in multiple ways (more defensive attention, have to try and do more than you normally would or get others involved to a greater extent changing your role etc).

Thumper 88
10-27-2015, 05:27 PM
lol

Chronz
10-27-2015, 05:55 PM
Feel free to explain how my post would have been drastically altered if I adjusted for pace for a comparison of their championship series. The fundamental arguments I am making have very little to do with pace.

Maybe so, but showing us his per game averages is alil disingenuous, would you still cite those numbers if they translated to say, 17-5-6 or so (Pippen type numbers)? And while Dirk wasn't the god people make out to be that title run, precisely because his numbers weren't where they used to be (I believe Dirk was past his peak at the moment) but he had an uncanny ability to make everyone more efficient. And while Dirk took until Avery to really excel defensively, he was underrated throughout his career. Hondo took forever to become an offensive force in much the same way.

mngopher35
10-27-2015, 05:58 PM
I forgot to add Chronz that another part of not having as much help is the type of looks/opportunities you receive. In the regular season the game isn't as slowed down against set defenses but in the playoffs it gets tighter so half court offense is more important. When this happens if you have other people who can create open/good opportunities for you it can certainly help you more than if you have to initiate more often for others and don't get those same looks.

I don't think that is the case here though as I think you know. In this case I was referring to the help Hondo had leading to more rings than Dirk has. With KG it was different because of the emphasis people were putting on things like career playoff numbers and ignoring KG didn't get to play much of his prime there (or even just playoff success/making it there while ignoring the teams around each). Where the stats may have been slightly hindered for him in that comparison is how often he had to initiate our offense compared to playing off players and getting more open looks (which I had a video to help show the easy looks he got).

KnicksorBust
10-27-2015, 06:23 PM
His most impressive runs were in 66, 68, 69, and 74.

In 66 he was the 2nd leading scorer for the Celtics averaging 23ppg / 10rpg / 4apg playing 43.1mpg
In 68 he was by far their leading scorer in the finals, averaging 27ppg / 9rpg / 7apg playing 48.5mpg (one minute played less than Russell that series).
In 69 he was again by far their leading scorer in the finals, averaging 28.3ppg / 11rpg / 4apg playing all 48mpg. That's right he played EVERY MINUTE OF THE SERIES. He did not see the bench.
In 74 he was again their leading scorer in the finals, averaging 26.4ppg / 7.7 rpg / 4.7 apg playing 47.1 mpg. That year he won Finals MVP.

This is why little things like his defensive prowess as a 5x all-nba defensive 1st team member and 3x all-nab defensive 2nd team member and stamina to run his opponents up and down the floor should be admired and looked upon as legendary accomplishments.

Dirk in his lone title win:
He was the leading scorer averaging 26ppg / 9.7 rpg / 2 apg playing 40.4 mpg. Look I give Dirk full credit for his championship but it didn't hurt that Terry/Kidd/Stevenson/Barea went off from the perimeter and he really only did it once. Even if I eat up Havlicek's 74 MVP he still has 3 impressive championship rings as the go-to player of championship teams AND 4 other rings as a role player at the beginning/end of his career.

First of all the numbers aren't adjusted for pace so I think that makes it look better for Hondo, and you didn't get into efficiency which is a great part of Dirk's offense. This is a big reason why the advanced numbers favor Dirk more than just the basics would. I don't want to look up and post all the numbers but I think you get what I mean (if you don't I will try to go in depth).

Outside of that you bring some good points to the table, like I said I think he has a case around here. I will also point out that while he was the best player offensively for many of those teams, it was their defense that was the key. This is different because Dirk lead all of those Mavs teams as the leader offensively with that being their strength and they are usually near the top in the league on this end while Boston was middle of the pack type. So Dirk clearly had more offensive influence IMO and honestly I don't think it was super close.

There is more than just scoring to compare. He is not a great rebounder or passer for his position. It took over half a decade for him to become an average defender. He won one title on a team that had multiple players going supernova from 3pt. His efficiency in his LONE championship was below average.

Indefensible holes in Dirk's resume?

AntiG
10-27-2015, 06:33 PM
Clyde Drexler should be added.

mngopher35
10-27-2015, 06:54 PM
There is more than just scoring to compare. He is not a great rebounder or passer for his position. It took over half a decade for him to become an average defender. He won one title on a team that had multiple players going supernova from 3pt. His efficiency in his LONE championship was below average.

I know there is more to scoring but when it comes to scoring, efficiency and influencing the offensive end Dirk has a big advantage. Now this could be overcome if Hondo had an elite area where his impact was far greater than Dirk in a similar way but I don't think he did. He was a very good defender for the time but he wasn't anchoring or influencing on that end at an elite level.

When we look at the per 100 possessions of his 74 season (unfortunately it is the only season of those great years I see the data for) he averaged 28.8 ppg, 6.1 apg and 6.2 rpg that playoff run. Dirk was at 39.1 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 3.5 apg on better efficiency for his 11 title run in comparison. That is a pretty big difference in scoring with Hondo having assists and Dirk rebounds.

I am curious to what you think of Hondo's defense overall though as that may be a point where I could consider more. From what I know he was a very good defender but I have never heard of him influencing that end at an elite level, just that he was good for his position at that time. To me Hondo is close to KG level offensively but without the same level of impact with defense/rebounding. What are your thoughts on this?

I have no issue with taking Hondo as I said earlier and I can't even say 100% Dirk is better since I am mostly going off stats and what I have read making me less confident in my opinions on him.

FlashBolt
10-27-2015, 07:01 PM
Are we going to ignore that one guy played against the best of his position in the history while the other played against inferior competition from his position? I can't name one top SF in NBA history from his time. Dirk has a legitimate case for greatest PF if Duncan/KG were not NBA players. Pace/competition is in huge favor for Havlicek. That has to account for something, no? Plus, Wade is better than Havlicek.. sorry.

mngopher35
10-27-2015, 07:04 PM
Indefensible holes in Dirk's resume?

What do you mean by this?

He has had a couple poor performances come playoff time I can think of but nothing on a consistent basis or anything and most players have a couple down series here and there.

KnicksorBust
10-27-2015, 07:12 PM
There is more than just scoring to compare. He is not a great rebounder or passer for his position. It took over half a decade for him to become an average defender. He won one title on a team that had multiple players going supernova from 3pt. His efficiency in his LONE championship was below average.

I know there is more to scoring but when it comes to scoring, efficiency and influencing the offensive end Dirk has a big advantage. Now this could be overcome if Hondo had an elite area where his impact was far greater than Dirk in a similar way but I don't think he did. He was a very good defender for the time but he wasn't anchoring or influencing on that end at an elite level.

When we look at the per 100 possessions of his 74 season (unfortunately it is the only season of those great years I see the data for) he averaged 28.8 ppg, 6.1 apg and 6.2 rpg that playoff run. Dirk was at 39.1 ppg, 11.1 rpg, 3.5 apg on better efficiency for his 11 title run in comparison. That is a pretty big difference in scoring with Hondo having assists and Dirk rebounds.

I am curious to what you think of Hondo's defense overall though as that may be a point where I could consider more. From what I know he was a very good defender but I have never heard of him influencing that end at an elite level, just that he was good for his position at that time. To me Hondo is close to KG level offensively but without the same level of impact with defense/rebounding. What are your thoughts on this?

I have no issue with taking Hondo as I said earlier and I can't even say 100% Dirk is better since I am mostly going off stats and what I have read making me less confident in my opinions on him.

TBH I don't know how you can refer to Hondo as only a "very good" defender. His defensive team resume is equivalent to legendary defenders like Cooper and Bowen. 5x all nba defensive first team and 3x all-nba defensive second team. That by definition is elite.

mngopher35
10-27-2015, 07:28 PM
Wings don't impact the defensive end nearly as much as big men can though, anchoring a defense is very important. Kobe and Chris Paul have many awards and I don't consider them near the level of impact as Duncan or KG defensively. On top of this the league was different then and there was less competition for these awards.

I want to know if his defense was at the level where he could be the main/best defensive player on a league leading defense? Can he completely change the way other teams play on that end of the floor? That is more of what I am getting at.

KnicksorBust
10-27-2015, 07:45 PM
Wings don't impact the defensive end nearly as much as big men can though, anchoring a defense is very important. Kobe and Chris Paul have many awards and I don't consider them near the level of impact as Duncan or KG defensively. On top of this the league was different then and there was less competition for these awards.

I want to know if his defense was at the level where he could be the main/best defensive player on a league leading defense? Can he completely change the way other teams play on that end of the floor? That is more of what I am getting at.

If the league shrunk to 16 teams tomorrow, would it be easier to make an all-nba defensive team?

YAALREADYKNO
10-27-2015, 09:00 PM
Dirk and then maybe wade or Malone

YAALREADYKNO
10-27-2015, 09:04 PM
Dirk was the best player for his team for the majority of his career. A lot of people say Bill Russell was the one that made that team go. How many prime hall of fame players did Dirk play with compared to Havlicek?

KnicksorBust
10-27-2015, 09:07 PM
Dirk was the best player for his team for the majority of his career. A lot of people say Bill Russell was the one that made that team go. How many prime hall of fame players did Dirk play with compared to Havlicek?

So why is Kobe top 10? He got to play with prime Shaq.

mngopher35
10-27-2015, 09:26 PM
If the league shrunk to 16 teams tomorrow, would it be easier to make an all-nba defensive team?

It wasn't just half the teams back then though, it was the entire talent pool you were working with. Over the years basketball and the NBA have grown a ton and now many more players worldwide come to play the sport. With a larger talent pool the league has expanded and IMO today it would be harder to make the all defensive team. I don't think half the league today is worse than the bottom players in the 70's just because their are twice as many players.

YAALREADYKNO
10-27-2015, 09:40 PM
So why is Kobe top 10? He got to play with prime Shaq.

Because he led the lakers to a back to back while collecting two finals mvps

KnicksorBust
10-28-2015, 06:22 AM
So why is Kobe top 10? He got to play with prime Shaq.

Because he led the lakers to a back to back while collecting two finals mvps

And Havlicek led the Celtics to titles in 69 and 74 winning one FMVP.

mightybosstone
10-28-2015, 08:27 AM
I am voting Malone just cause


John Havlicek, then Malone, then Dirk.

Eww... I will not be voting for Karl Malone anywhere in the top 25 and will protest against his selection in any thread. Putting him over Dirk is blasphemy in my book, and that's coming from someone who also loathes the Mavs with a passion almost as much as I loathed the Jazz in the '90s.

mightybosstone
10-28-2015, 08:30 AM
And Havlicek led the Celtics to titles in 69 and 74 winning one FMVP.

Pick your battles, KoB. Dirk had this thing won within the first couple of hours of this thread being posted. Come back in a couple of days and we'll argue Wade vs. Hondo. I'm fairly certain you'll be fighting a losing battle in that one as well. ;)

YAALREADYKNO
10-28-2015, 09:02 AM
And Havlicek led the Celtics to titles in 69 and 74 winning one FMVP.

He didn't lead them to a 2nd one. He was 4th in scoring on that team in the regular season and 4th in scoring in the playoffs while Kobe led the lakers in their repeat. Nice try though

KnicksorBust
10-28-2015, 11:54 AM
And Havlicek led the Celtics to titles in 69 and 74 winning one FMVP.

He didn't lead them to a 2nd one. He was 4th in scoring on that team in the regular season and 4th in scoring in the playoffs while Kobe led the lakers in their repeat. Nice try though

You don't value performance in the finals? That is outrageous and ludicrous.

KnicksorBust
10-28-2015, 11:57 AM
And Havlicek led the Celtics to titles in 69 and 74 winning one FMVP.

Pick your battles, KoB. Dirk had this thing won within the first couple of hours of this thread being posted. Come back in a couple of days and we'll argue Wade vs. Hondo. I'm fairly certain you'll be fighting a losing battle in that one as well. ;)

It is all about the inevitability game. Sooner you bring him up the sooner others get on board.

Plus I legitimately think championships are disgustingly undervalued in these discussions and enjoy a good debate.

YAALREADYKNO
10-28-2015, 01:42 PM
You don't value performance in the finals? That is outrageous and ludicrous.

And you act like Kobe didn't perform in the finals smh

KnicksorBust
10-28-2015, 02:03 PM
You don't value performance in the finals? That is outrageous and ludicrous.

And you act like Kobe didn't perform in the finals smh

How so? I have Kobe ranked 5th all-time.

YAALREADYKNO
10-28-2015, 03:28 PM
How so? I have Kobe ranked 5th all-time.

You're about to get killed on PSD for ranking Kobe that high lol this is an anti Kobe website

valade16
10-28-2015, 05:18 PM
It is all about the inevitability game. Sooner you bring him up the sooner others get on board.

Plus I legitimately think championships are disgustingly undervalued in these discussions and enjoy a good debate.

Where do you rank Bill Russell? If championships are massively underrated how can he not be at least Top 5 and likely top 3?

KnicksorBust
10-28-2015, 06:04 PM
It is all about the inevitability game. Sooner you bring him up the sooner others get on board.

Plus I legitimately think championships are disgustingly undervalued in these discussions and enjoy a good debate.

Where do you rank Bill Russell? If championships are massively underrated how can he not be at least Top 5 and likely top 3?

6th.

YAALREADYKNO
10-28-2015, 07:52 PM
Well dirks obviously got this one. Let's move on. D-Wade, isiah Thomas, or Malone for my next pick

KnicksorBust
10-28-2015, 08:00 PM
Well dirks obviously got this one. Let's move on. D-Wade, isiah Thomas, or Malone for my next pick

You can't honestly think Malone and his 0 rings touch Hondo with 8 rings.

YAALREADYKNO
10-28-2015, 09:11 PM
You can't honestly think Malone and his 0 rings touch Hondo with 8 rings.

Ok yah maybe not Malone lol but it was interesting on NBA open court they all chose Malone as the best Pf of the 90's decade

KnicksorBust
10-28-2015, 09:25 PM
You can't honestly think Malone and his 0 rings touch Hondo with 8 rings.

Ok yah maybe not Malone lol but it was interesting on NBA open court they all chose Malone as the best Pf of the 90's decade

I agree with you about Wade and Zeke. Both have shown legendary guts.