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Shammyguy3
10-18-2015, 03:34 PM
If you think someone should be added to the poll PLEASE don't ***** about it. Just mention in the thread that he should be added to the next poll and if the player's all-time standing is relatively close to the number we're at there shouldn't be a problem adding him to the poll.


So, who does everyone have?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Tim Duncan
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. Lebron James
8. Magic Johnson
9. Larry Bird
10. Kobe Bryant
11. Bill Russell
12. Moses Malone
13. Jerry West
14. Oscar Robertson
15. David Robinson
16. Julius Erving
17. ?

naps
10-18-2015, 04:11 PM
Dwyane Wade. Has the combination of hardware and statistical dominance better than anyone on the list. But ofcourse some people will devalue him as low as they possibly can for various reasons namely it somehow helps them value LeBron more.

Shammyguy3
10-18-2015, 04:18 PM
Wade doesn't have that long of a peak though, and his defense heavily fell off so his prime 2-way play didn't last long either. I can't take him over a good 5 players on the list for that alone.

Like last thread, I'm going with Chuck.

YAALREADYKNO
10-18-2015, 04:34 PM
Dirk Nowitzki

LakersIn5
10-18-2015, 04:46 PM
Karl Maloney. Did not win a championship. Neither would the other options had they played their prime in the 90s. High level of play fot a long period of time. 2nd in points all time. Most 20+ ppg season in history. Member of nba defensive team.

naps
10-18-2015, 04:58 PM
Wade doesn't have that long of a peak though, and his defense heavily fell off so his prime 2-way play didn't last long either. I can't take him over a good 5 players on the list for that alone.

Like last thread, I'm going with Chuck.


His prime lasted long enough to warrant him in this discusssion imo. And while it's true his defense fell off for obvious reasons, he has had a better 2 way career than most of the guys on this list including your pick. Add his finals heroics and 3 rings (would have been 4 rings and 2 fmvp, thanks to Lebron '11). Don't see anyone with a better career here.

YAALREADYKNO
10-18-2015, 06:21 PM
His prime lasted long enough to warrant him in this discusssion imo. And while it's true his defense fell off for obvious reasons, he has had a better 2 way career than most of the guys on this list including your pick. Add his finals heroics and 3 rings (would have been 4 rings and 2 fmvp, thanks to Lebron '11). Don't see anyone with a better career here.

Well to be fair wade could've played a lil better especially in game 6

naps
10-18-2015, 08:06 PM
Well to be fair wade could've played a lil better especially in game 6

Yeah ofcourse he could have but that's not really being fair here specially the way Lebron disappeared. Point is if LeBron played just a tad bit better Miami wins and Wade gets his second fmvp and all of a sudden he becomes a lock for, let's say, top 12 with 4 rings and 2 fmvp, even though he is still the same player. See how the narrative changes?

Shammyguy3
10-18-2015, 08:11 PM
His prime lasted long enough to warrant him in this discusssion imo. And while it's true his defense fell off for obvious reasons, he has had a better 2 way career than most of the guys on this list including your pick. Add his finals heroics and 3 rings (would have been 4 rings and 2 fmvp, thanks to Lebron '11). Don't see anyone with a better career here.

I disagree that his prime lasted long enough to warrant him near this discussion. His prime was very short, especially on the defensive end. What was it, like three seasons where he could be relied upon on the defensive end for a whole season (including playoffs)? That doesn't stack up considering how far behind he is offensively with Chuck in my opinion.

Sure, if Lebron played better in the 2011 Finals he'd likely have another ring and possibly another FMVP as well. But, what about how ****** Wade played in the 2012, 2013, AND 2014 Finals?

2012 versus Oklahoma City Wade posted a 51.6ts% 108 ORtg 29.2usg%
2013 versus San Antonio Wade posted a 50.5ts% 104 ORtg 28.5usg%
2014 versus San Antonio Wade posted a 50.4ts% 89 ORtg 27.5usg%

2011 versus Dallas Lebron posted a 54.1ts% 102 ORtg 22.9usg%

Now, you tell me who cost the other player more during their reign together? Lebron let Wade down in 2011 yes, perhaps costing him 1 ring. But Wade let Lebron down the following 3 seasons. And despite that, Lebron got him two more rings. Wade benefited far more from his teams than Barkely, Garnett, Dirk, and a couple other guys up there did.


Just comparing Wade, Chuck, and Dirk. Through each of these players' first 12 seasons, this is what they've given us during their regular seasons:

Chuck: 32,932 minutes over 890 games; 25.3usg% 62.0ts% 25.1 PER 0.219 WS/48 7.9 BPM 81.9 VORP
Dirk: 33,371 minutes over 920 games; 27.0usg% 58.0ts% 23.8 PER 0.214 WS/48 4.1 BPM 51.7 VORP
Wade: 28,302 minutes over 781 games; 32.1usg% 56.6ts% 25.0 PER 0.185 WS/48 5.7 BPM 54.8 VORP


Through each of these players' first 12 seasons, this is what they've given us during the playoffs:

Chuck: 4,000 minutes over 99 games; 25.7usg% 58.8ts% 24.7 PER 0.197 WS/48 7.8 BPM 9.9 VORP
Dirk: 4,301 minutes over 103 games; 26.2usg% 57.9ts% 24.7 PER 0.206 WS/48 4.9 BPM 7.5 VORP
Wade: 5,907 minutes over 152 games; 30.1usg% 55.4ts% 22.7 PER 0.161 WS/48 5.2 BPM 10.7 VORP


Now, each of these players have had historic playoffs and finals. Let's compare their great Finals appearances (For Chuck, obviously 1993; Dirk, 2011; Wade, obviously 2006):

Chuck: 26.1usg% 54.4ts% 123 ORtg 20.3ast% 16.4trb% 6.2tov%
Dirk: 33.1usg% 53.7ts% 105 ORtg 10.6ast% 15.0trb% 10.5tov%
Wade: 36.9usg% 57.2ts% 113 ORtg 20.3ast% 10.1trb% 10.8tov%


Wade had a historic 6 game series where he played possessed and took advantage of the way the games were being reffed. Now, should that 6 game series and his couple of years where he was great defensively override everything else these other two players produced on the floor during 12 seasons? Remember, that's not factoring in Chuck and Dirk's rest of their careers. To me, that's not fair. Especially when you look at how fast Wade became completely unreliable not just defensively but offensively in the 2012, 2013, and 2014 Finals appearances.

Bruno
10-18-2015, 08:15 PM
i like KG here. best two way player left, long career, long peak, and the brass to back it up.

WaDe03
10-18-2015, 09:57 PM
I disagree that his prime lasted long enough to warrant him near this discussion. His prime was very short, especially on the defensive end. What was it, like three seasons where he could be relied upon on the defensive end for a whole season (including playoffs)? That doesn't stack up considering how far behind he is offensively with Chuck in my opinion.

Sure, if Lebron played better in the 2011 Finals he'd likely have another ring and possibly another FMVP as well. But, what about how ****** Wade played in the 2012, 2013, AND 2014 Finals?

2012 versus Oklahoma City Wade posted a 51.6ts% 108 ORtg 29.2usg%
2013 versus San Antonio Wade posted a 50.5ts% 104 ORtg 28.5usg%
2014 versus San Antonio Wade posted a 50.4ts% 89 ORtg 27.5usg%

2011 versus Dallas Lebron posted a 54.1ts% 102 ORtg 22.9usg%

Now, you tell me who cost the other player more during their reign together? Lebron let Wade down in 2011 yes, perhaps costing him 1 ring. But Wade let Lebron down the following 3 seasons. And despite that, Lebron got him two more rings. Wade benefited far more from his teams than Barkely, Garnett, Dirk, and a couple other guys up there did.


Just comparing Wade, Chuck, and Dirk. Through each of these players' first 12 seasons, this is what they've given us during their regular seasons:

Chuck: 32,932 minutes over 890 games; 25.3usg% 62.0ts% 25.1 PER 0.219 WS/48 7.9 BPM 81.9 VORP
Dirk: 33,371 minutes over 920 games; 27.0usg% 58.0ts% 23.8 PER 0.214 WS/48 4.1 BPM 51.7 VORP
Wade: 28,302 minutes over 781 games; 32.1usg% 56.6ts% 25.0 PER 0.185 WS/48 5.7 BPM 54.8 VORP


Through each of these players' first 12 seasons, this is what they've given us during the playoffs:

Chuck: 4,000 minutes over 99 games; 25.7usg% 58.8ts% 24.7 PER 0.197 WS/48 7.8 BPM 9.9 VORP
Dirk: 4,301 minutes over 103 games; 26.2usg% 57.9ts% 24.7 PER 0.206 WS/48 4.9 BPM 7.5 VORP
Wade: 5,907 minutes over 152 games; 30.1usg% 55.4ts% 22.7 PER 0.161 WS/48 5.2 BPM 10.7 VORP


Now, each of these players have had historic playoffs and finals. Let's compare their great Finals appearances (For Chuck, obviously 1993; Dirk, 2011; Wade, obviously 2006):

Chuck: 26.1usg% 54.4ts% 123 ORtg 20.3ast% 16.4trb% 6.2tov%
Dirk: 33.1usg% 53.7ts% 105 ORtg 10.6ast% 15.0trb% 10.5tov%
Wade: 36.9usg% 57.2ts% 113 ORtg 20.3ast% 10.1trb% 10.8tov%


Wade had a historic 6 game series where he played possessed and took advantage of the way the games were being reffed. Now, should that 6 game series and his couple of years where he was great defensively override everything else these other two players produced on the floor during 12 seasons? Remember, that's not factoring in Chuck and Dirk's rest of their careers. To me, that's not fair. Especially when you look at how fast Wade became completely unreliable not just defensively but offensively in the 2012, 2013, and 2014 Finals appearances.

Idk what that advanced stats **** is but Wade put up good numbers in the 2012 and 2013 finals and had big moments in both series to help win the series. Game 4 against the Spurs for example down 2-1 and he balled out. If we lose that game the series is over. 2014 was terrible I'll give you that but his knees were ****ed.

kdspurman
10-18-2015, 10:45 PM
Idk what that advanced stats **** is but Wade put up good numbers in the 2012 and 2013 finals and had big moments in both series to help win the series. Game 4 against the Spurs for example down 2-1 and he balled out. If we lose that game the series is over. 2014 was terrible I'll give you that but his knees were ****ed.

2014 idk if it was his knees, or just having a great defender in Green slow him down a bit, and making work like crazy on the other end.

Wade did look good in 2014 in a couple games though, game 3 in particular. They made a huge run in the 3rd while Lebron sat and Wade really helped to make a big run. He was also pretty good in game 1 (acgate)

WaDe03
10-19-2015, 01:14 AM
2014 idk if it was his knees, or just having a great defender in Green slow him down a bit, and making work like crazy on the other end.

Wade did look good in 2014 in a couple games though, game 3 in particular. They made a huge run in the 3rd while Lebron sat and Wade really helped to make a big run. He was also pretty good in game 1 (acgate)

I blame that series on the AC over everything lol.

naps
10-19-2015, 03:49 AM
After the 2011 finals, the roles of the Miami Heat's two biggest stars were reversed. Wade understood the team won't be successful if one of them didn't take a lesser role and he knew LeBron can't play off of him as good as he can play off of LeBron. So he took the backseat to facilitate LeBron and made sure LeBron could do whatever he wanted while Wade himself became the clear robin. And both the times they won, he played his 2nd fiddle role as good as any 2nd fiddle can. He was fantastic. Ofcourse he was not gonna put up godly stats like a number 1 option. And Wade was a prime defender from 2005 to 2012 with 3 years being one of the best in the league. Funny how you gloss over Dirk/Chuck's no D careers and blaming Wade for the same reason while he is known to be one of the finest 2 way guards to have ever played the game.

Chronz
10-19-2015, 03:14 PM
How is Julius ahead of kg. Dirk. Wade. Hondo. Pettit?

Chronz
10-19-2015, 03:15 PM
Idk what that advanced stats **** is but Wade put up good numbers in the 2012 and 2013 finals and had big moments in both series to help win the series. Game 4 against the Spurs for example down 2-1 and he balled out. If we lose that game the series is over. 2014 was terrible I'll give you that but his knees were ****ed.
They weren't that good is what they say tho. Balling out in certain games doesn't completely erase how You perform all game and series.

Chronz
10-19-2015, 03:20 PM
After the 2011 finals, the roles of the Miami Heat's two biggest stars were reversed. Wade understood the team won't be successful if one of them didn't take a lesser role and he knew LeBron can't play off of him as good as he can play off of LeBron. So he took the backseat to facilitate LeBron and made sure LeBron could do whatever he wanted while Wade himself became the clear robin. And both the times they won, he played his 2nd fiddle role as good as any 2nd fiddle can. He was fantastic. Ofcourse he was not gonna put up godly stats like a number 1 option. And Wade was a prime defender from 2005 to 2012 with 3 years being one of the best in the league. Funny how you gloss over Dirk/Chuck's no D careers and blaming Wade for the same reason while he is known to be one of the finest 2 way guards to have ever played the game.
I don't see a complete reversal. I saw an equal opportunity offense evolve into what was best for all involved. Nobody expected godly from Wade after a certain point, just more consistency. The kind I've seen from other secondary options

WaDe03
10-19-2015, 03:57 PM
They weren't that good is what they say tho. Balling out in certain games doesn't completely erase how You perform all game and series.

But in the end he averaged like 24-5-6 in 2012 and 20-4-5 in 2013. Those numbers aren't spot on but they're along those lines I checked them a couple weeks ago. He made big plays and took crucial games over. It might not erase anything but it helps show how great of a player someone is when they step up like that in crucial moments on the biggest stage.

WaDe03
10-19-2015, 03:58 PM
How is Julius ahead of kg. Dirk. Wade. Hondo. Pettit?

Was wondering the same thing.

YAALREADYKNO
10-19-2015, 05:06 PM
How is Julius ahead of kg. Dirk. Wade. Hondo. Pettit?

That's what I wonder myself

Shammyguy3
10-19-2015, 06:08 PM
How is Julius ahead of kg. Dirk. Wade. Hondo. Pettit?

small number of voters

FlashBolt
10-20-2015, 01:16 AM
Shammy, just shut this thread down. No one is voting and it's just getting lame now. Sucks because top ten will always stay the same unless there's a huge change of members/LeBron wins another/Duncan/Kobe.

Shammyguy3
10-20-2015, 11:07 AM
might as well just keep it going until #20 don't you think?

Chronz
10-20-2015, 03:05 PM
I voted Chuck but I feel dirty about it. I think Wade has the best legacy/resume but Im putting Chucks consistently elite play above Wade's flashes of GOAT caliber seasons.

I think Im gonna vote Wade, Dirk, KG next but those 3 all have different arguments.

Shammyguy3
10-20-2015, 04:34 PM
Don't feel dirty about it, Chuck deserves to be ranked as high as 15, but can reasonably go anywhere between 16-20 likely. I agree, the next three are likely going to be those guys in some order.

flea
10-20-2015, 05:09 PM
Wade doesn't belong in the same breath as Barkley, Dirk, or probably KG and Malone. In the years without the superteam this is how his team's offense ranked in chronological order: 15, 5, 7, 24, 30, 20, 19, and 21 (last season). The 5 and 7 rankings were when he had end of prime Shaq on his team.

I understand it was primarily a defensive team but guys like Dirk and Barkley were carrying their squads to 45+ win seasons with some 50 win seasons sprinkled in while Wade was either not playing or barely ekeing out 42 wins in the terrible East. He never won 50 games without prime Shaq or prime Lebron - once again, in the East. The closest he came was 47 with JO the year before superteam. Hell Bosh won 47 games in Toronto with Anthony Parker and TJ Ford as his sidekicks.

Wade also had a season where his team won 15 games - in the East. Yes he only played 2/3 of the games that season and yes he had knee and should surgery before the season but that's still pathetic considering he played the 2nd most minutes on the Heat that year. Dirk could have carried his team to 20 wins if he only played 40 games in any year during his prime, especially in the East.

He was a good offensive guard and an athletic pest at times on defense, but he was way (way way way) closer to Gervin or Wilkins than he has been to Kobe. Hell, he doesn't touch Drexler IMO but for some reason Drexler gets tons of hate.

Shammyguy3
10-20-2015, 05:41 PM
Wade doesn't belong in the same breath as Barkley, Dirk, or probably KG and Malone. In the years without the superteam this is how his team's offense ranked in chronological order: 15, 5, 7, 24, 30, 20, 19, and 21 (last season). The 5 and 7 rankings were when he had end of prime Shaq on his team.

I understand it was primarily a defensive team but guys like Dirk and Barkley were carrying their squads to 45+ win seasons with some 50 win seasons sprinkled in while Wade was either not playing or barely ekeing out 42 wins in the terrible East. He never won 50 games without prime Shaq or prime Lebron - once again, in the East. The closest he came was 47 with JO the year before superteam. Hell Bosh won 47 games in Toronto with Anthony Parker and TJ Ford as his sidekicks.

Wade also had a season where his team won 15 games - in the East. Yes he only played 2/3 of the games that season and yes he had knee and should surgery before the season but that's still pathetic considering he played the 2nd most minutes on the Heat that year. Dirk could have carried his team to 20 wins if he only played 40 games in any year during his prime, especially in the East.

He was a good offensive guard and an athletic pest at times on defense, but he was way (way way way) closer to Gervin or Wilkins than he has been to Kobe. Hell, he doesn't touch Drexler IMO but for some reason Drexler gets tons of hate.

I can agree somewhat with this. However, Wade can't be the sole reason why his teams suffered on offense without a running mate or good supporting cast. I can't lay all of that at his foot. I agree though, that Wade's single Finals MVP where it was ridiculously officiated and he, smartly, took advantage of it puts him too high in many person's eyes.

Redrum187
10-21-2015, 05:40 AM
Wade is in the 25-30 range for me.

Wade's peak was ultra short and as Shammy said, Heat fans give Wade the credit for the refs blowing the whistle if someone breathed on him. Even objective Heat fans will admit the refs tanked that series for the Mavericks.

KnicksorBust
10-21-2015, 07:31 AM
I voted Chuck but I feel dirty about it. I think Wade has the best legacy/resume but Im putting Chucks consistently elite play above Wade's flashes of GOAT caliber seasons.

I think Im gonna vote Wade, Dirk, KG next but those 3 all have different arguments.

No mention of Hondo??

KnicksorBust
10-21-2015, 07:33 AM
Why am I the only one that values winning at a premium?

YAALREADYKNO
10-21-2015, 08:34 AM
Wade doesn't belong in the same breath as Barkley, Dirk, or probably KG and Malone. In the years without the superteam this is how his team's offense ranked in chronological order: 15, 5, 7, 24, 30, 20, 19, and 21 (last season). The 5 and 7 rankings were when he had end of prime Shaq on his team.

I understand it was primarily a defensive team but guys like Dirk and Barkley were carrying their squads to 45+ win seasons with some 50 win seasons sprinkled in while Wade was either not playing or barely ekeing out 42 wins in the terrible East. He never won 50 games without prime Shaq or prime Lebron - once again, in the East. The closest he came was 47 with JO the year before superteam. Hell Bosh won 47 games in Toronto with Anthony Parker and TJ Ford as his sidekicks.

Wade also had a season where his team won 15 games - in the East. Yes he only played 2/3 of the games that season and yes he had knee and should surgery before the season but that's still pathetic considering he played the 2nd most minutes on the Heat that year. Dirk could have carried his team to 20 wins if he only played 40 games in any year during his prime, especially in the East.

He was a good offensive guard and an athletic pest at times on defense, but he was way (way way way) closer to Gervin or Wilkins than he has been to Kobe. Hell, he doesn't touch Drexler IMO but for some reason Drexler gets tons of hate.

Dirk was carrying his teams to 50-60 wins every year for 11 seasons straight with jet terry and Josh Howard as his 2nd best players and with Eric dampier and desagana diop as his centers

mightybosstone
10-21-2015, 09:34 AM
How is Julius ahead of kg. Dirk. Wade. Hondo. Pettit?

He won titles and MVPs in both the ABA and NBA, was greatest player in the ABA by a mile, posted a solid NBA peak (.200+ WS/48 and 23+ PER for four consecutive NBA seasons) and wasn't an a subpar defensive player like Dirk or Barkley. I love Hondo, but the guy's offensive efficiency numbers are abysmal by pretty much any era's standards and I'm just not on the Pettit bandwagon. I won't put any guy in the top 25 who peaked in the 50s or early 60s who isn't Bill Russell.

I think Erving's case is as strong as anybody's on the list you just posted. It's just a matter of preference and what numbers and facts you're using to plead your case. :shrug:

WaDe03
10-21-2015, 10:57 AM
Wade is in the 25-30 range for me.

Wade's peak was ultra short and as Shammy said, Heat fans give Wade the credit for the refs blowing the whistle if someone breathed on him. Even objective Heat fans will admit the refs tanked that series for the Mavericks.

If you watched the series and re watched the games this summer when they played them you could also see that literally no one could stay in front of him. He was probably the fastest player in the league. He may have gotten some calls but every superstar does. They foiled him a lot. Harden shoots free throws like that every game lol.

WaDe03
10-21-2015, 11:03 AM
Wade doesn't belong in the same breath as Barkley, Dirk, or probably KG and Malone. In the years without the superteam this is how his team's offense ranked in chronological order: 15, 5, 7, 24, 30, 20, 19, and 21 (last season). The 5 and 7 rankings were when he had end of prime Shaq on his team.

I understand it was primarily a defensive team but guys like Dirk and Barkley were carrying their squads to 45+ win seasons with some 50 win seasons sprinkled in while Wade was either not playing or barely ekeing out 42 wins in the terrible East. He never won 50 games without prime Shaq or prime Lebron - once again, in the East. The closest he came was 47 with JO the year before superteam. Hell Bosh won 47 games in Toronto with Anthony Parker and TJ Ford as his sidekicks.

Wade also had a season where his team won 15 games - in the East. Yes he only played 2/3 of the games that season and yes he had knee and should surgery before the season but that's still pathetic considering he played the 2nd most minutes on the Heat that year. Dirk could have carried his team to 20 wins if he only played 40 games in any year during his prime, especially in the East.

He was a good offensive guard and an athletic pest at times on defense, but he was way (way way way) closer to Gervin or Wilkins than he has been to Kobe. Hell, he doesn't touch Drexler IMO but for some reason Drexler gets tons of hate.

The 15 win season he may have played a lot of minutes but he obviously was hurt while he was playing. Don't forget he came back that summer and led the redeem team to gold and the next season had the biggest turnaround in the wins column from a player coming back from injury in the history of the NBA I'm pretty sure. From the time he got injured in 06-07 where he was leading the MVP race until the time he brought LeBron and Bosh in he was playing with a bunch of scrubs .

WaDe03
10-21-2015, 11:18 AM
Dirk was carrying his teams to 50-60 wins every year for 11 seasons straight with jet terry and Josh Howard as his 2nd best players and with Eric dampier and desagana diop as his centers

You say that like Jason Terry is one of the best 6th mans ever, Josh Howard wasn't an all star as well as Jerry stackhouse being a former all star. Steve Nash Michael Finley Van Exel Tyson Chandler and Dampier was pretty good for awhile but Diop was trash. He's definitely played with a lot of talent over his career and I'm sure I'm leaving people off. He didn't carry them by himself for that long as you try to make it seem.

YAALREADYKNO
10-21-2015, 12:42 PM
You say that like Jason Terry is one of the best 6th mans ever, Josh Howard wasn't an all star as well as Jerry stackhouse being a former all star. Steve Nash Michael Finley Van Exel Tyson Chandler and Dampier was pretty good for awhile but Diop was trash. He's definitely played with a lot of talent over his career and I'm sure I'm leaving people off. He didn't carry them by himself for that long as you try to make it seem.

Dirks prime started in 04 once Nash left Howard and terry were his best players and quit acting like terry and Howard were some sort of superstars. They were solid role players. Josh Howard made the allstar team one year as a injury replacement. After that he started going downhill with injuries and off the court issues yet Dirk still had the Mavs in the playoffs and over 50 wins in the western conference smh

Hawkeye15
10-21-2015, 01:42 PM
Why am I the only one that values winning at a premium?

context

WaDe03
10-21-2015, 01:54 PM
Dirks prime started in 04 once Nash left Howard and terry were his best players and quit acting like terry and Howard were some sort of superstars. They were solid role players. Josh Howard made the allstar team one year as a injury replacement. After that he started going downhill with injuries and off the court issues yet Dirk still had the Mavs in the playoffs and over 50 wins in the western conference smh

Still an all star and one of the best 6th mans. You're trying to talk like their scrubs lol. You saw all the other players I mentioned as well.

mngopher35
10-21-2015, 02:25 PM
I voted KG but wouldn't mind Barkley or even Dirk as well. I don't have Wade here quite yet due to his longevity and injury issues but he will be in the next tier with Hondo I would think. His prime/peak have him in the conversation for sure but since 2011 playoffs he has been injured or resting for chunks of the season or playoffs.

YAALREADYKNO
10-21-2015, 05:16 PM
Still an all star and one of the best 6th mans. You're trying to talk like their scrubs lol. You saw all the other players I mentioned as well.

Never said they were scrubs. Just tired of the fact that everyone makes it seem like Dirk had star level type help every year

Redrum187
10-21-2015, 05:55 PM
You say that like Jason Terry is one of the best 6th mans ever, Josh Howard wasn't an all star as well as Jerry stackhouse being a former all star. Steve Nash Michael Finley Van Exel Tyson Chandler and Dampier was pretty good for awhile but Diop was trash. He's definitely played with a lot of talent over his career and I'm sure I'm leaving people off. He didn't carry them by himself for that long as you try to make it seem.

Jason Terry is a great 6th man... 6th man... as in, bench guy. He is a mediocre starter, but a great spark off the bench. To attribute any significant chunk of success to Jason Terry would be incredibly misplaced.

Josh Howard??! He is a scrub. He had one season where he put up 20 points and he was utter trash after it. Lets not pretend Josh Howard ISN'T a scrub.

Steve Nash is probably the greatest teammate Dirk has ever had. Unfortunately, it didn't translate to Finals appearances, so this is irrelevant to postseason success.

Tyson Chandler is the only real role player that should get recognition for his contribution. We all saw what Dirk could do with a defensive Center who can rebound and make his free throws.

Let's compare the teammates Wade has had. Gary Payton, Shaq, Mourning, Haslem, LeBron James, Ray Allen, Jermaine O'Neal, Chris Bosh, etc...

I think the 2006 Dallas Maverick team accomplished the most (67 wins) having by far the least talent, with Dirk as the only superstar or even star player for the Mavericks.

Furthermore, in 2011, Dirk was the best basketball player in the world for the couple months. No one, not even LeBron James, could stop Dirk that postseason. He did it all while not getting Wade or Harden-like foul calls.

Chronz
10-21-2015, 07:26 PM
Why am I the only one that values winning at a premium?

If that were so, you wouldn't have voted for big o over greater winners

KnicksorBust
10-21-2015, 09:09 PM
Why am I the only one that values winning at a premium?

If that were so, you wouldn't have voted for big o over greater winners

But there is a talent tipping point.

Chronz
10-21-2015, 09:55 PM
But there is a talent tipping point.
I think you set the bar low on the talent department then. Drob was more talented. More of a winner. Drob is pretty low on my list these days.

Chronz
10-21-2015, 10:05 PM
He won titles and MVPs in both the ABA and NBA, was greatest player in the ABA by a mile, posted a solid NBA peak (.200+ WS/48 and 23+ PER for four consecutive NBA seasons) and wasn't an a subpar defensive player like Dirk or Barkley. I love Hondo, but the guy's offensive efficiency numbers are abysmal by pretty much any era's standards and I'm just not on the Pettit bandwagon. I won't put any guy in the top 25 who peaked in the 50s or early 60s who isn't Bill Russell.

I think Erving's case is as strong as anybody's on the list you just posted. It's just a matter of preference and what numbers and facts you're using to plead your case. :shrug:
There is only 1 lg now. It would be sorta like having an eastern and western mvp + champion today. Would you have respected the NJ nets when kidd was leading them to a finals sweep as a historically notable squad?

His stats are basically just solid and his championships weren't more impressive. His mvp don't carry much weight given the comp.

FlashBolt
10-21-2015, 10:24 PM
I don't think Barkley is better than KG or Dirk but I'm not going to argue as well. Love the guy.