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Shammyguy3
09-27-2015, 04:29 PM
Choose from the poll options and debate who the current Top 20 best players in the NBA are. This should not be based on who had the best season last year, but rather who you would choose for a team in order to win right now.

Additional options will be added as we go along based on who will realistically receive votes at that level (or if players are requested in the thread).


1. Lebron (73% of the vote)
2. Durant (55% of the vote)
3. Curry (55% of the vote)
4. Davis (50% of the vote)
5. Harden (57% of the vote)
6. Paul (52% of the vote)
7. Westbrook (82% of the vote)
8. Griffin (59% of the vote)
9. Cousins (29% of the vote)
10. Leonard (39% of the vote)
11. Gasol (41% of the vote)
12. Melo (28% of the vote)
13. Butler (39% of the vote)
14. Wall (33% of the vote)
15. Duncan (35% of the vote)
16. ?

mrblisterdundee
09-28-2015, 01:10 AM
LaMarcus Aldridge is probably going to be better than Tim Duncan, who's (rightfully) riding on reputation. It'll be interesting to see whether Paul George and Kyrie Irving stay healthy.
It surprises me how much better some people think Jimmy Butler is than Klay Thompson. Butler's clearly the better defender, but Thompson's the more efficient and voluminous scorer. I'd rather have Thompson when my team's down near the end of the game.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-28-2015, 03:46 AM
Andrew Wiggins.

Tony_Starks
09-28-2015, 10:57 AM
Kyrie

Slug3
09-28-2015, 12:25 PM
Kyrie

I want to vote for him, but he is so young and has really shown he cant stay healthy.

Tony_Starks
09-28-2015, 01:02 PM
Kyrie

I want to vote for him, but he is so young and has really shown he cant stay healthy.


His propensity for injury is the only thing that would give me pause. Other than that he's definitely proved he is a top talent. He actually fit with Lebron way better than I expected, he can be off the ball and still very effective.

Slug3
09-28-2015, 01:07 PM
His propensity for injury is the only thing that would give me pause. Other than that he's definitely proved he is a top talent. He actually fit with Lebron way better than I expected, he can be off the ball and still very effective.

I agree with that, I would have put him a lot higher if he was able to stay healthy for a good 2 year stretch so I can enjoy him, but if memory serves me correct, I even think in College he dealt with a bad ankle injury as well (I could be thinking of someone else).

nycericanguy
09-28-2015, 01:22 PM
LaMarcus Aldridge is probably going to be better than Tim Duncan, who's (rightfully) riding on reputation. It'll be interesting to see whether Paul George and Kyrie Irving stay healthy.
It surprises me how much better some people think Jimmy Butler is than Klay Thompson. Butler's clearly the better defender, but Thompson's the more efficient and voluminous scorer. I'd rather have Thompson when my team's down near the end of the game.

that's a good point. Klay scored almost 22ppg in under 32mpg... Butler scored 20 in almost 39mpg. Now on the other hand there is value in being able to play so many minutes, whereas guys like Klay and Leonard rested a lot.

I also think Klay has had a more natural progression, whereas with Butler, you kinda wonder if he can replicate last year because he kind of came out of nowhere scoring wise.

Butler, Leonard and DMC went way too high in this list. I dont think you can put Butler above Melo after just last season.

valade16
09-28-2015, 01:29 PM
that's a good point. Klay scored almost 22ppg in under 32mpg... Butler scored 20 in almost 39mpg. Now on the other hand there is value in being able to play so many minutes, whereas guys like Klay and Leonard rested a lot.

I also think Klay has had a more natural progression, whereas with Butler, you kinda wonder if he can replicate last year because he kind of came out of nowhere scoring wise.

Butler, Leonard and DMC went way too high in this list. I dont think you can put Butler above Melo after just last season.

But I don't think that's because they can't play 39 MPG, it's just their teams were so good and deep, they often times were rested at the end of blowouts and they were able to rely on their bench more than Chicago.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
09-28-2015, 01:30 PM
I'd like to pick Paul George but if he's not completely healthy and how well will he play when he returns. Other wise kinda stumped yet. It's kinda down to 4. I know who i'm not picking from that list.

nycericanguy
09-28-2015, 01:38 PM
But I don't think that's because they can't play 39 MPG, it's just their teams were so good and deep, they often times were rested at the end of blowouts and they were able to rely on their bench more than Chicago.

true also... but then again it does make Butler more impressive. It's tough to score 20 AND defend for 39mpg and 80 games.

Whereas a guy like Khawi has never played more than 66 games or more than 31mpg or scored more than 16ppg... he just has a much easier role... hence I dont think he's a top 10 player.

Chronz
09-28-2015, 02:00 PM
His propensity for injury is the only thing that would give me pause. Other than that he's definitely proved he is a top talent. He actually fit with Lebron way better than I expected, he can be off the ball and still very effective.

I didn't like the fit at first but it wasn't because of Bron, it was because of the make up of the entire team. I guess Ill find out how Love responds to playing without Kyrie but I truly feel his lack of facilitation hurt Loves game and forced Bron into doing too much with the ball. Bron hasn't held the ball this long since the days he had no help, its no coincidence he had the most turnover prone season of his career.

Chronz
09-28-2015, 02:10 PM
I think its time to show respect to what LMA has accomplished in the past. We'll find out how his inefficiencies individually influence the Spurs this year but Im thinking he should belong in this tier regardless.

nycericanguy
09-28-2015, 02:16 PM
Dwight howard is also being slighted... he had a rough year but in the playoffs 16 & 14 and 2bpg and a deep team run and he's still a great defender.

tough list tho, really after #8 you can arguments for so many guys. you have the old timers like Duncan, Melo, Howard... against guys like Butler, Leonard, Klay...tough for me to put those guys ahead of guys who have done it so long.

D-Leethal
09-29-2015, 08:05 PM
I think its time to show respect to what LMA has accomplished in the past. We'll find out how his inefficiencies individually influence the Spurs this year but Im thinking he should belong in this tier regardless.

How would you say his inefficiencies influenced Portland's offense?

kdspurman
09-29-2015, 09:10 PM
true also... but then again it does make Butler more impressive. It's tough to score 20 AND defend for 39mpg and 80 games.

Whereas a guy like Khawi has never played more than 66 games or more than 31mpg or scored more than 16ppg... he just has a much easier role... hence I dont think he's a top 10 player.

I wouldn't say Kawhi has a much easier role. The ppg thing isn't the most important thing here . The dude impacts the game like crazy. His RPM and DRPM show that, as does the spurs record w/of him.

nycericanguy
09-29-2015, 09:21 PM
I wouldn't say Kawhi has a much easier role. The ppg thing isn't the most important thing here . The dude impacts the game like crazy. His RPM and DRPM show that, as does the spurs record w/of him.

POP gives him alot of games/minutes off. You don't see how only playing 65 games and 31mpg is easier than playing 39mpg and 80 games like Butler? Most young stars play 36mpg+...

PPG was just one of the things I mentioned. It's not everything but my point was, if you gave him a STAR role... could he be the #1 guy on a team? I'm not convinced he could be, and to me that's what a top 10 player is if you're going to have him ranked above guys like LMA, Melo, Klay, Wall, Wade...list goes on and on.

I mean he's in a great situation with a great coach and great players around him, but his role just isn't big enough imo to have him above so many great players that have done it year in and year out as #1 guys on their teams. And not for nothing but the Spurs were great way before Kwahi, i'm sure they are better with him but it's not like they weren't winning titles without him.

kdspurman
09-29-2015, 09:28 PM
POP gives him alot of games/minutes off. You don't see how only playing 65 games and 31mpg is easier than playing 39mpg and 80 games like Butler? Most young stars play 36mpg+...

PPG was just one of the things I mentioned. It's not everything but my point was, if you gave him a STAR role... could he be the #1 guy on a team? I'm not convinced he could be, and to me that's what a top 10 player is if you're going to have him ranked above guys like LMA, Melo, Klay, Wall, Wade...list goes on and on.

I mean he's in a great situation with a great coach and great players around him, but his role just isn't big enough imo to have him above so many great players that have done it year in and year out as #1 guys on their teams. And not for nothing but the Spurs were great way before Kwahi, i'm sure they are better with him but it's not like they weren't winning titles without him.

Pop limits his minutes. He's missed games due to injuries, not rest . 95% of the time he missed is due to injurys. His hand, quad, eye injury, etc... pop isn't resting him like he's Duncan or Manu. And his minutes definitely go up in the playoffs.

The spurs weren't winning squat before Kawhi. He came in and they went WCF loss, Finals loss, Finals win, and finally last year they lost in the first round to the clips. He is the reason they are still competing for a title. Prior to his arrival, they were a good team. They weren't a championship team

You've got different criteria, which is your prerogative. But you're also selling the guy way too short

Chronz
09-29-2015, 09:55 PM
Pop limits his minutes. He's missed games due to injuries, not rest . 95% of the time he missed is due to injurys. His hand, quad, eye injury, etc... pop isn't resting him like he's Duncan or Manu. And his minutes definitely go up in the playoffs.

The spurs weren't winning squat before Kawhi. He came in and they went WCF loss, Finals loss, Finals win, and finally last year they lost in the first round to the clips. He is the reason they are still competing for a title. Prior to his arrival, they were a good team. They weren't a championship team

You've got different criteria, which is your prerogative. But you're also selling the guy way too short
Agreed. Having an allegedly higher role doesn't make you a better player. It usually means you can't impact the game enough without the touches or ur on a worse team

Chronz
09-29-2015, 09:57 PM
How would you say his inefficiencies influenced Portland's offense?
Enough to finally vote for him since the last spot

FlashBolt
09-29-2015, 11:29 PM
Pop limits his minutes. He's missed games due to injuries, not rest . 95% of the time he missed is due to injurys. His hand, quad, eye injury, etc... pop isn't resting him like he's Duncan or Manu. And his minutes definitely go up in the playoffs.

The spurs weren't winning squat before Kawhi. He came in and they went WCF loss, Finals loss, Finals win, and finally last year they lost in the first round to the clips. He is the reason they are still competing for a title. Prior to his arrival, they were a good team. They weren't a championship team

You've got different criteria, which is your prerogative. But you're also selling the guy way too short

I think you're giving Kawhi too much credit here for what goes great for the Spurs and not enough for when things go wrong.

Danny Green deserves some respect here. His defense and ability to knock down threes is an incredible threat. They paid him $11 million -- which signifies just how important he is to their team. Not enough credit given to guys who played above expectations such as Neal, Bonner, Diaw, and even Splitter. Not saying Kawhi doesn't get any credit here but let's not pretend as if he's stuck in a no-win situation. The guy is placed in a role that fits him 100%. I would like to see him get tested on a team in which he is forced to be a top ten guy.

No one also knocks him for playing horribly against the Clippers the last three or four games. Rest assured, I think Spurs win if Kawhi somewhat stepped up a bit more. He was atrocious from the field and couldn't get anything going. I think we all forgot he was even playing because of that minimal impact. So if we're going to give him credit for the Spurs success (which he is a huge part of; him sitting out games while he was injured definitely made Spurs drop a few seedings), it's only fair we give him the same treatment when the Spurs aren't successful.

kdspurman
09-30-2015, 09:14 AM
I think you're giving Kawhi too much credit here for what goes great for the Spurs and not enough for when things go wrong.

Danny Green deserves some respect here. His defense and ability to knock down threes is an incredible threat. They paid him $11 million -- which signifies just how important he is to their team. Not enough credit given to guys who played above expectations such as Neal, Bonner, Diaw, and even Splitter. Not saying Kawhi doesn't get any credit here but let's not pretend as if he's stuck in a no-win situation. The guy is placed in a role that fits him 100%. I would like to see him get tested on a team in which he is forced to be a top ten guy.

No one also knocks him for playing horribly against the Clippers the last three or four games. Rest assured, I think Spurs win if Kawhi somewhat stepped up a bit more. He was atrocious from the field and couldn't get anything going. I think we all forgot he was even playing because of that minimal impact. So if we're going to give him credit for the Spurs success (which he is a huge part of; him sitting out games while he was injured definitely made Spurs drop a few seedings), it's only fair we give him the same treatment when the Spurs aren't successful.

I knew if there was a Kawhi discussion, you would be here. ;)

Firstly, yes he struggled the last few games against the Clips. So what? He, like a few other players did not step up when needed. It happens. That doesn't make anything I said less true.

All those guys you mentioned are valuable. No doubt. I believe we have the 2 best defenders at the 2/3 spot, and Green deserves major props. That doesn't change the fact that Leonard is the most valuable/important Spur, and without him, they wouldn't be contending for anything but a playoff spot.

If I'm giving Kawhi too much credit, it's cause he deserves it. He does more for this team than you realize.

nycericanguy
09-30-2015, 09:25 AM
I knew if there was a Kawhi discussion, you would be here. ;)

Firstly, yes he struggled the last few games against the Clips. So what? He, like a few other players did not step up when needed. It happens. That doesn't make anything I said less true.

All those guys you mentioned are valuable. No doubt. I believe we have the 2 best defenders at the 2/3 spot, and Green deserves major props. That doesn't change the fact that Leonard is the most valuable/important Spur, and without him, they wouldn't be contending for anything but a playoff spot.

If I'm giving Kawhi too much credit, it's cause he deserves it. He does more for this team than you realize.

do you really think he's one of the 10 best players in the world though? that's my issue...

Better than LMA, Melo, Wall, Klay, Dwight, Gasol, Beal, Wade, Duncan, George, Love, Bosh, Irving, Lillard....?

I don't want to knock him for being in a perfect situation, but I just wonder if he'd really be that great outside of that situation.

valade16
09-30-2015, 10:12 AM
do you really think he's one of the 10 best players in the world though? that's my issue...

Better than LMA, Melo, Wall, Klay, Dwight, Gasol, Beal, Wade, Duncan, George, Love, Bosh, Irving, Lillard....?

I don't want to knock him for being in a perfect situation, but I just wonder if he'd really be that great outside of that situation.

One of these is not like the others lol

nycericanguy
09-30-2015, 10:23 AM
One of these is not like the others lol

lol yea youre right...

tredigs
09-30-2015, 10:31 AM
do you really think he's one of the 10 best players in the world though? that's my issue...

Better than LMA, Melo, Wall, Klay, Dwight, Gasol, Beal, Wade, Duncan, George, Love, Bosh, Irving, Lillard....?

I don't want to knock him for being in a perfect situation, but I just wonder if he'd really be that great outside of that situation.
He is so much better than some of these players that I wouldn't even know where to start from an arguments standpoint. We're watching different leagues at this point.

Chronz
09-30-2015, 11:57 AM
Easily better than the majority of those guys

nycericanguy
09-30-2015, 12:02 PM
Easily better than the majority of those guys

would you put ANY of those guys above Khawi then?

How do you feel about Gordon Haywood? Is he worthy of being top 10 consideration? Or is Khawi miles above him?

JAZZNC
09-30-2015, 12:49 PM
I have no idea who Gordon Haywood is but Leonard is better than Gordon Hayward simply because he is a much much better defender. Hayward is better offensively (I feel like Kawhi would struggle mightily on a team like Utah where he was the #1 scoring option), but Kawhi is the better overall player.

phantasyyy
09-30-2015, 03:21 PM
I knew if there was a Kawhi discussion, you would be here. ;)

Firstly, yes he struggled the last few games against the Clips. So what? He, like a few other players did not step up when needed. It happens. That doesn't make anything I said less true.

All those guys you mentioned are valuable. No doubt. I believe we have the 2 best defenders at the 2/3 spot, and Green deserves major props. That doesn't change the fact that Leonard is the most valuable/important Spur, and without him, they wouldn't be contending for anything but a playoff spot.

If I'm giving Kawhi too much credit, it's cause he deserves it. He does more for this team than you realize.

Crazy how there was a backlash in terms of trading Hill.

valade16
09-30-2015, 03:25 PM
Do people think Kawhi will be the No. 1 option on SA or LMA? Because it seems in the question of which is better or more capable of leading a team, a good thing to watch would be the team that has both to see who leads them.

kdspurman
09-30-2015, 03:33 PM
Crazy how there was a backlash in terms of trading Hill.

Ha.. Yea, I remember that. I was unsure, only cause I liked Hill and the chemistry, etc... But I knew it was a need for us at that position. Big time difference maker

kdspurman
09-30-2015, 03:33 PM
do you really think he's one of the 10 best players in the world though? that's my issue...

Better than LMA, Melo, Wall, Klay, Dwight, Gasol, Beal, Wade, Duncan, George, Love, Bosh, Irving, Lillard....?

I don't want to knock him for being in a perfect situation, but I just wonder if he'd really be that great outside of that situation.

I do at this point, yes.

Chronz
09-30-2015, 03:58 PM
Do people think Kawhi will be the No. 1 option on SA or LMA? Because it seems in the question of which is better or more capable of leading a team, a good thing to watch would be the team that has both to see who leads them.

Not at all. The player who performs his individual role to the highest degree is the better player. You dont need to be a #1 option if you impact the game in other ways. 1 example is Michael Beasley being the go-to guy in Minny vs Kevin Love.

When you're the DPOY, focusing on offense is negating most of his impact. Hes still great offensively but we'll see how LMA influences the Spurs.

valade16
09-30-2015, 04:08 PM
Not at all. The player who performs his individual role to the highest degree is the better player. You dont need to be a #1 option if you impact the game in other ways. 1 example is Michael Beasley being the go-to guy in Minny vs Kevin Love.

When you're the DPOY, focusing on offense is negating most of his impact. Hes still great offensively but we'll see how LMA influences the Spurs.

I wasn't speaking necessarily as the #1 scorer. I was talking about the team leader. Every article I've seen about the Spurs seems to list LMA as the 'superstar' of the team. We will see but for now it looks like LMA will be counted on to be 'the man' over Kawhi.

I also refute the idea that performing your role to the best degree makes you a better player, it makes you better in that role. There are people who are in miscast roles who if they were put in another players role who had a smaller role or more specific function, could perform that role better but because they are so talented they are asked to do more.

nycericanguy
09-30-2015, 04:21 PM
Not at all. The player who performs his individual role to the highest degree is the better player. You dont need to be a #1 option if you impact the game in other ways. 1 example is Michael Beasley being the go-to guy in Minny vs Kevin Love.

When you're the DPOY, focusing on offense is negating most of his impact. Hes still great offensively but we'll see how LMA influences the Spurs.

totally disagree here... unless you worded it wrong.

Steve Novak was the best at his role of 3pt shooter in NY, that doesn't mean he was the best player on the team...obviously not by a long shot.

Similarly Korver is the best probably in the entire league in his role, but not even the best player on his own team.

If you take a guy and reduce his minutes, and reduce his workload on offense, of course it's going to be easier for him to expend energy on defense and be more efficient on offense.

Chronz
09-30-2015, 04:26 PM
I wasn't speaking necessarily as the #1 scorer. I was talking about the team leader. Every article I've seen about the Spurs seems to list LMA as the 'superstar' of the team. We will see but for now it looks like LMA will be counted on to be 'the man' over Kawhi.

I also refute the idea that performing your role to the best degree makes you a better player, it makes you better in that role. There are people who are in miscast roles who if they were put in another players role who had a smaller role or more specific function, could perform that role better but because they are so talented they are asked to do more.
Team leaders go beyond being a #1 option (which is the only aspect you mentioned in your post). What articles tho? Most rankings I've seen have them both on equal footing.

There are also players who are miscast in roles where when asked to do less actually perform less efficiently. You're argument works both ways which is why I leave it to the players to prove their worth. I really dont see the point of people trying to force roles onto other players. Like Kawhi vs Melo, Melo is a better #1 option for a ****** team, but I could never imagine him having the dual impact of Kawhi on a championship winning team.

kdspurman
09-30-2015, 04:26 PM
I wasn't speaking necessarily as the #1 scorer. I was talking about the team leader. Every article I've seen about the Spurs seems to list LMA as the 'superstar' of the team. We will see but for now it looks like LMA will be counted on to be 'the man' over Kawhi.

I also refute the idea that performing your role to the best degree makes you a better player, it makes you better in that role. There are people who are in miscast roles who if they were put in another players role who had a smaller role or more specific function, could perform that role better but because they are so talented they are asked to do more.

Those articles and whatever is all stuff the media does. LMA is a bigger name so naturally he's getting the nod as "the guy" but who knows what'll happen.

That sort of stuff isn't important to those guys, that's 1 of the things Pop/RC look for when bringing guys over. It's fun for fans and the media to talk about, but Pop/RC look at that stuff more before they look at what you do on the court.

Chronz
09-30-2015, 04:28 PM
totally disagree here... unless you worded it wrong.

Steve Novak was the best at his role of 3pt shooter in NY, that doesn't mean he was the best player on the team...obviously not by a long shot.

Similarly Korver is the best probably in the entire league in his role, but not even the best player on his own team.

If you take a guy and reduce his minutes, and reduce his workload on offense, of course it's going to be easier for him to expend energy on defense and be more efficient on offense.
I didn't word it wrong, Novak didn't perform his role to the highest degree because it led to being one of the least productive players on his team, especially given his HORRID defensive impact. Korver is highly underrated in terms of team impact but that is easily Horfords team IMO. Simply far more productive on both ends to suggest Korver performs his role to a higher degree.

I also disagree with youR last theory. Its not as easy as you think, some players are utterly incapable of being elite 2-way players regardless of their roles.

valade16
09-30-2015, 04:37 PM
I didn't word it wrong, Novak didn't perform his role to the highest degree because it led to being one of the least productive players on his team, especially given his HORRID defensive impact. Korver is highly underrated in terms of team impact but that is easily Horfords team IMO. Simply far more productive on both ends to suggest Korver performs his role to a higher degree.

I also disagree with youR last theory. Its not as easy as you think, some players are utterly incapable of being elite 2-way players regardless of their roles.

But he's far more productive because of his role. Korver is the best 3pt shooting specialist and floor spacer in the league period. Al Horford is not the best No. 1 option, well rounded PF in the league.

Korver absolutely does his role better than Al Horford does his, but we all know Horford is the better player. Saying Horford does more is essentially saying Horford's role is to do more.

But if you were going to replace Korver with another 3pt shooting, floor spacing role player you couldn't find a better one in the league. If you wanted to replace Horford with a No. 1 option PF you could for sure pick AD and Blake Griffin, probably LMA and some others.

While I agree some players are utterly incapable of being 2 way players regardless of their role, I think the same holds true for being the No. 1 scoring option and offensive leader of a team. There's no way Kyle Korver could be the highest scorer on a team and that team not be terrible on offense because he simply doesn't have the offensive diversity to carry an offense.

valade16
09-30-2015, 04:38 PM
Team leaders go beyond being a #1 option (which is the only aspect you mentioned in your post). What articles tho? Most rankings I've seen have them both on equal footing.

There are also players who are miscast in roles where when asked to do less actually perform less efficiently. You're argument works both ways which is why I leave it to the players to prove their worth. I really dont see the point of people trying to force roles onto other players. Like Kawhi vs Melo, Melo is a better #1 option for a ****** team, but I could never imagine him having the dual impact of Kawhi on a championship winning team.

But would he also be a better No. 1 option for a WCF team? Because he was that. If Kawhi was on that Denver team instead would he have been able to do what Melo did? I'm not even going to ask if he could be the No. 1 scorer because we both know AI would've taken over those duties from Kawhi in a hearbeat.

JAZZNC
09-30-2015, 04:46 PM
I didn't word it wrong, Novak didn't perform his role to the highest degree because it led to being one of the least productive players on his team, especially given his HORRID defensive impact. Korver is highly underrated in terms of team impact but that is easily Horfords team IMO. Simply far more productive on both ends to suggest Korver performs his role to a higher degree.

I also disagree with youR last theory. Its not as easy as you think, some players are utterly incapable of being elite 2-way players regardless of their roles.
So then is everyone's role to be high end two way players?

Because if not then I don't see how Korver could have performed his given role on that team any better last year.

Chronz
09-30-2015, 04:52 PM
But he's far more productive because of his role. Korver is the best 3pt shooting specialist and floor spacer in the league period. Al Horford is not the best No. 1 option, well rounded PF in the league.
And he has his role because he can fulfill the requirements expected to a higher degree.


Korver absolutely does his role better than Al Horford does his, but we all know Horford is the better player. Saying Horford does more is essentially saying Horford's role is to do more.

Based on what? How is he doing his role more effectively if it influences his team to a lesser degree?


But if you were going to replace Korver with another 3pt shooting, floor spacing role player you couldn't find a better one in the league. If you wanted to replace Horford with a No. 1 option PF you could for sure pick AD and Blake Griffin, probably LMA and some others.
Those are also players superior to Korver tho, wats ur point?


While I agree some players are utterly incapable of being 2 way players regardless of their role, I think the same holds true for being the No. 1 scoring option and offensive leader of a team. There's no way Kyle Korver could be the highest scorer on a team and that team not be terrible on offense because he simply doesn't have the offensive diversity to carry an offense.

Thats been my point this entire time.

Chronz
09-30-2015, 04:58 PM
But would he also be a better No. 1 option for a WCF team? Because he was that. If Kawhi was on that Denver team instead would he have been able to do what Melo did? I'm not even going to ask if he could be the No. 1 scorer because we both know AI would've taken over those duties from Kawhi in a hearbeat.
Newsflash, AI wasn't on the team. That the team improved so much upon jettisoning a #1 option in AI for a true 2-way leader in Chauncey only helps my argument. Also, that Denver team was prolly the 4th best in its conference IMO. Sometimes the best teams dont advance further but it takes a higher level of performance to actually win a title. So theres a distinct difference in being a WC finalist and winning the whole thing. Melo had the worst regular season (offensively) of his career during that run but it was the best we've ever seen him play defense and the stats back this, however, it was a FAR cry from being a DPOY caliber defender. (Man I've been capitalizing FAR cry, FAR too often today).

Chronz
09-30-2015, 05:01 PM
So then is everyone's role to be high end two way players?

Because if not then I don't see how Korver could have performed his given role on that team any better last year.
If you're asking me if everyone should strive to be 2-way players, then yes. Some dont have it in them so teams have to build around them abit differently. That puts more strain on teams to find adequate fits.

Not sure what you mean here, Korver could have DRASTICALLY improved his role by increasing his usage and playing far better defense. And I say this as someone who loves Korver and understands hes better than public perception. He did not fulfill his role better than Horford IMO.

Chronz
09-30-2015, 05:08 PM
I have no idea who Gordon Haywood is but Leonard is better than Gordon Hayward simply because he is a much much better defender. Hayward is better offensively (I feel like Kawhi would struggle mightily on a team like Utah where he was the #1 scoring option), but Kawhi is the better overall player.

The problem I have with this sort of reasoning is that it works BOTH ways. Haywood would struggle MIGHTILY (to a greater degree, hence the caps) if tasked with the responsibilities of a DPOY. I love Haywards game, he struggled his first year without Al Jeff but those growing pains made him a better overall player today. I look forward to his prime but I have no doubt that if you were to replace the 2, the Spurs would suffer. So why is it that people prioritize what a player would do on a losing team like the Jazz instead of what a player would contribute to a championship winning team?

On a team like the Jazz, I envision them being worse offensively with Kawhi, but MUCH better defensively, historically great even (I have high hopes for the Stifle Tower), thus making them a better overall team.

Chronz
09-30-2015, 05:11 PM
If anything, Jazz fans should see how much more important a limited player who fulfills his role to perfection is more beneficial than a guy who can carry more offensive responsibility. Kanter was a special level of bad defensively but he was a better offensive presence. Now imagine a WING having a DPOY level impact on a team. Thats so rare that it has value in itself.

nycericanguy
09-30-2015, 05:14 PM
Newsflash, AI wasn't on the team. That the team improved so much upon jettisoning a #1 option in AI for a true 2-way leader in Chauncey only helps my argument. Also, that Denver team was prolly the 4th best in its conference IMO. Sometimes the best teams dont advance further but it takes a higher level of performance to actually win a title. So theres a distinct difference in being a WC finalist and winning the whole thing. Melo had the worst regular season (offensively) of his career during that run but it was the best we've ever seen him play defense and the stats back this, however, it was a FAR cry from being a DPOY caliber defender. (Man I've been capitalizing FAR cry, FAR too often today).

But Melo was still the #1 option on DEN teams that won 60% of their games in a very tough WC during his time there. Sure his teams in NY have been rough the past couple of years, but if you put Melo with Duncan, Manu & Parker obviously things would be different.

I think Khawi is a top 20 player, but putting him top 10 when he's never played more than 31mpg, or more than 65 games, never even made an all star team, and never scored more than 16ppg is just a bit too soon for me.

Tyson was DPOY and extremely efficient offensively in NY, but I don't think he was ever a top 20 or 30 player. He just excelled in his limited role/games/minutes.

valade16
09-30-2015, 05:25 PM
And he has his role because he can fulfill the requirements expected to a higher degree.

Based on what? How is he doing his role more effectively if it influences his team to a lesser degree?

Those are also players superior to Korver tho, wats ur point?

Thats been my point this entire time.

Because certain roles are designed to affect a team more than others. If your job is to space the floor and play D inherently that role won't have as much of an impact on the team as being the role of primary scoring option, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that the lesser impact person in a lesser impact role can be better at that role than the guy who is playing the role of the primary scoring option.

A good example is LMA. As you say, he's superior to Korver as a player. But as a No. 1 option, he is not the best No. 1 option in the league. So Kyle Korver is by definition better at his role as there is no one who is better in the league at it than LMA is at his, however LMA's role is by it's very parameters designed for him to have more of an impact on a team.

Chronz
09-30-2015, 05:40 PM
But Melo was still the #1 option on DEN teams that won 60% of their games in a very tough WC during his time there. Sure his teams in NY have been rough the past couple of years, but if you put Melo with Duncan, Manu & Parker obviously things would be different.
Again with this #1 option, thats because thats Melo's game, it doesn't mean you have to have the same role to be a superior player. I think both he and Billups were on equal footing and history is filled with guys who were lower on the totem poll offensively yet remained their teams best players. Obviously things would be different, doesn't mean they would be better. Melo was always a sure fire scorer, didn't prevent the Pistons from neglecting him because they already had a stud defender at the 3.


I think Khawi is a top 20 player, but putting him top 10 when he's never played more than 31mpg, or more than 65 games, never even made an all star team, and never scored more than 16ppg is just a bit too soon for me.

I dont see why, hes been more influential on both ends because of that role and I dont prioritize what players do on awful teams more than what great players do on championship winning teams unless there is a drastic difference in their production. Im not trying to make it seem like its not even close, but it is a simple decision based on Melo's lack of durability and 2-way efficiency. Peak Melo is likely better, but I havent seen that guy lately.


Tyson was DPOY and extremely efficient offensively in NY, but I don't think he was ever a top 20 or 30 player. He just excelled in his limited role/games/minutes.

Now imagine getting the DPOY from a position that makes it MUCH harder to have that sort of impact, now imagine that same player holding a greater offensive responsibility. Thats why Kawhi is special.

Chronz
09-30-2015, 05:52 PM
Because certain roles are designed to affect a team more than others. If your job is to space the floor and play D inherently that role won't have as much of an impact on the team as being the role of primary scoring option
Can you give me some examples because I dont think its that cut and dry. Back when Tmac and Yao were playing, after year 1 it was clear that Yao was the most productive player and definitely their best defender, yet without Tmac the team was rudderless whereas without Yao, the team kept winning. A players impact for his team depends on his replacement value, individual production and defensive contributions. Thats been my point from the start and being a #1 option doesn't make you better (as history has shown), so all you're left with is an excuse that works both ways, whereas a guy like Kawhi has less excuses to make.


, but that doesn't preclude the possibility that the lesser impact person in a lesser impact role can be better at that role than the guy who is playing the role of the primary scoring option.

Agreed. Hence my Tmac+Yao example.



A good example is LMA. As you say, he's superior to Korver as a player. But as a No. 1 option, he is not the best No. 1 option in the league. So Kyle Korver is by definition better at his role as there is no one who is better in the league at it than LMA is at his, however LMA's role is by it's very parameters designed for him to have more of an impact on a team.

By what definition? There isnt a criteria I know of that suggests any of this. Being a great marksmen doesn't negate the usage disparity in this instance, but we'll see what the replacement value is this year, tho thats the lowest on my list of priorities. Its why I once acknowledged Yao as the superior player despite Tmac being more valuable to his team.

JAZZNC
09-30-2015, 07:32 PM
If you're asking me if everyone should strive to be 2-way players, then yes. Some dont have it in them so teams have to build around them abit differently. That puts more strain on teams to find adequate fits.

Not sure what you mean here, Korver could have DRASTICALLY improved his role by increasing his usage and playing far better defense. And I say this as someone who loves Korver and understands hes better than public perception. He did not fulfill his role better than Horford IMO.
I completely agree that everyone should strive to be great two way players. However, there are players that simply don't have the physical attributes to excell on both ends i.e. Korver. I honestly don't know that he could be a + defender. Also I feel like upping his usage would have made him less efficient in this particular example. Korver played his particular role on that team to the best of his ability. I am certainly not saying that he is a better player or more important to the team than Horford. I guess what I am getting at is Horford and Korver have very different roles and given their skill set I feel like they both maximized their particular roles to the best of their ability. I don't feel like Horford fulfilled his role any better, he is just a better player and thus was asked to do more (rightfully so) and did. I don't know if you could ask Korver to do much better.

JAZZNC
10-01-2015, 12:39 AM
If anything, Jazz fans should see how much more important a limited player who fulfills his role to perfection is more beneficial than a guy who can carry more offensive responsibility. Kanter was a special level of bad defensively but he was a better offensive presence. Now imagine a WING having a DPOY level impact on a team. Thats so rare that it has value in itself.

Believe me I understand the importance of that Kanter trade in our late season success. And yes adding Leonard would make us possibly historically great defensively but exactly what part of Kawhi is the better player overall did you not understand?