PDA

View Full Version : Isaiah Thomas: Top 5 Handles



Tony_Starks
09-24-2015, 03:19 PM
According to him
(take it for what it's worth, after all he only guards them)


1- J Crossover

2- Steph Curry

3- Chris Paul

4- Kyrie Irving

5- James Harden



I don't know It's really hard to argue with Jammal Crawford, I've never seen someone do that at the NBA level and still have the game to go along with it. The stuff he does would get the typical guy snatched from a game, but he's doing this and playing 6th man of the year caliber ball.


My vote number one would be Kyrie though. It just seems like at any given moment he is either about to make someone brake a ankle or turn around completely lost on D.

Nice to see CP3 gets that kind of love from his peers too. It doesn't get mentioned a lot by fans but his handle is pretty sick. Not as flashy as Steph or Kyrie but he can embarrass you.




http://www.theplayerstribune.com/isaiah-thomas-celtics-nba-best-ball-handlers/

MonroeFAN
09-24-2015, 03:32 PM
Seems about right (although I also would have Irving #1). I'd be curious to see his 6-10.

tredigs
09-24-2015, 03:39 PM
Seems like the pretty standard top 5 handles right now. If we had this thread (and we have had it I think. If not here it was on the other big site), then they would get the most votes in one order or another.

flea
09-24-2015, 03:42 PM
I'd put Parker in the top 5, he's got probably the best footwork of any guard currently and that's a big component of handles. He does it without a J too, while the rest of these guys range from good to great shooting off the dribble. Don't know that I'd put Harden so high, sort of a loose handle. He's got pretty good footwork for a guard but a lot of it is that Euro-step traveling and arm-flopping.

Tony_Starks
09-24-2015, 03:50 PM
I'd put Parker in the top 5, he's got probably the best footwork of any guard currently and that's a big component of handles. He does it without a J too, while the rest of these guys range from good to great shooting off the dribble. Don't know that I'd put Harden so high, sort of a loose handle. He's got pretty good footwork for a guard but a lot of it is that Euro-step traveling and arm-flopping.


Don't let Hardens antics fool you,his handle is pretty sick. That between the legs step back is almost invincible.

His crossover is very serious too. I'd actually put him over CP3.

tredigs
09-24-2015, 04:02 PM
I'd put Parker in the top 5, he's got probably the best footwork of any guard currently and that's a big component of handles. He does it without a J too, while the rest of these guys range from good to great shooting off the dribble. Don't know that I'd put Harden so high, sort of a loose handle. He's got pretty good footwork for a guard but a lot of it is that Euro-step traveling and arm-flopping.

Well Parker's got a great J now, just not from too deep. How does that make his handle more impressive, though? Imo it's a lot tougher for a guy like Kyrie or Curry who aren't afforded any space to work with and have to create that space with their deception. Harden would be #5 for me of these guys, but he's bigger also.

mngopher35
09-24-2015, 04:18 PM
I think Parker has great handles too and wouldn't really mind him over Harden but those would be my top 5. Irving/Crawford/Curry/CP3 would be locks and Harden gets the nod from me personally to round out the list even though I can see at least parker having an argument.

What about Wall, what are thoughts on him? He might not be as refined as some of these guys but he has some great moves. Not quite in the top tier but I think he would be top 10 still.

Tony_Starks
09-24-2015, 04:38 PM
I think Parker has great handles too and wouldn't really mind him over Harden but those would be my top 5. Irving/Crawford/Curry/CP3 would be locks and Harden gets the nod from me personally to round out the list even though I can see at least parker having an argument.

What about Wall, what are thoughts on him? He might not be as refined as some of these guys but he has some great moves. Not quite in the top tier but I think he would be top 10 still.


I think Wall and the forgotten D Rose are just outside the top 5. Their handle is a bit more crafty as opposed to the others.

On his rare healthy nights D Williams is actually very much in this conversation.

mngopher35
09-24-2015, 04:45 PM
I think Wall and the forgotten D Rose are just outside the top 5. Their handle is a bit more crafty as opposed to the others.

On his rare healthy nights D Williams is actually very much in this conversation.

Ya I think right outside the top 5 is right for Wall.

Dwill in his prime would definitely be someone to consider on a list like this but not so much anymore. On rare healthy nights maybe but I honestly haven't watched a ton of him these last couple years to have seen it.

flea
09-24-2015, 04:53 PM
Well Parker's got a great J now, just not from too deep. How does that make his handle more impressive, though? Imo it's a lot tougher for a guy like Kyrie or Curry who aren't afforded any space to work with and have to create that space with their deception. Harden would be #5 for me of these guys, but he's bigger also.

Don't think it makes him better but may make him more underrated, since people typically remember the crossovers and stepback jumpers - none of which is part of Parker's game. It's like dunking to big men, sticks out in your mind but really counts the same as anything else. Parker is as good as I've seen probing a defense and keeping his dribble, rarely gets stuck in bad parts of the court, and operates and a lot of different speeds. Tony's gotten solid at shooting off screens, but that's mainly to keep defenses from going under them all the time. He doesn't take very many shots off the dribble except in a few areas of the court - and he really doesn't try to take jumpers by breaking down a defender 1v1.

Crawford is one I think gets overrated because he's a scoring guard. Not a very good P&R handler and not very good at probing defenses deep into the paint, just overdribbles and chucks. I'm not saying he's bad or anything, and he might be top 5, but I'd rather have a guy who can do more. I think Wade is probably a better ballhandler than him, and a handful of other guards.

Chronz
09-24-2015, 04:54 PM
Its a fun read but I dont think hes actually ranking anyone but maybe he is. I just took it as the elites of the elite.
Anyways, if you get slower and less deceptive with the same moves, is your handle worse now? Has to be right. Kind of the same way the better shooter you are the better of a ball handler you become because players have to play you up tighter, making it easier to blow bye and create.

Its one of the reasons D-Will has dropped off, he doesn't put the fear of god anyone anymore with his bully ball. He used to have great momentum to the rim, now its all basically to set up his jumper, which hes still quite good with but hes missing that burst to the rim badly.

Chronz
09-24-2015, 05:04 PM
Don't think it makes him better but may make him more underrated, since people typically remember the crossovers and stepback jumpers - none of which is part of Parker's game. It's like dunking to big men, sticks out in your mind but really counts the same as anything else. Parker is as good as I've seen probing a defense and keeping his dribble, rarely gets stuck in bad parts of the court, and operates and a lot of different speeds. Tony's gotten solid at shooting off screens, but that's mainly to keep defenses from going under them all the time. He doesn't take very many shots off the dribble except in a few areas of the court - and he really doesn't try to take jumpers by breaking down a defender 1v1.

Crawford is one I think gets overrated because he's a scoring guard. Not a very good P&R handler and not very good at probing defenses deep into the paint, just overdribbles and chucks. I'm not saying he's bad or anything, and he might be top 5, but I'd rather have a guy who can do more. I think Wade is probably a better ballhandler than him, and a handful of other guards.

Thats a good point, especially with how his quickness has diminished. Jamal belongs in a best crossovers list, not sure I would put him on the best ball handlers list if we say that a ballhandlers job revolves around more than just creating for yourself. Probing a defense is the hardest thing to do, it requires adept ball handling and ohter physical traits. Like being smaller helps but if you're going to be a tall guard, you need more quickness/agility or a strong base to avoid getting knocked off balance.

Young Jamal would have been a better pick, he used to be able to play some PG.

tredigs
09-24-2015, 05:07 PM
Don't think it makes him better but may make him more underrated, since people typically remember the crossovers and stepback jumpers - none of which is part of Parker's game. It's like dunking to big men, sticks out in your mind but really counts the same as anything else. Parker is as good as I've seen probing a defense and keeping his dribble, rarely gets stuck in bad parts of the court, and operates and a lot of different speeds. Tony's gotten solid at shooting off screens, but that's mainly to keep defenses from going under them all the time. He doesn't take very many shots off the dribble except in a few areas of the court - and he really doesn't try to take jumpers by breaking down a defender 1v1.

Crawford is one I think gets overrated because he's a scoring guard. Not a very good P&R handler and not very good at probing defenses deep into the paint, just overdribbles and chucks. I'm not saying he's bad or anything, and he might be top 5, but I'd rather have a guy who can do more. I think Wade is probably a better ballhandler than him, and a handful of other guards.
Gotchya, I see where you're coming from and that does hold water.

5ass
09-24-2015, 05:20 PM
No mention of Iverson?

Chronz
09-24-2015, 05:26 PM
Gotchya, I see where you're coming from and that does hold water.

Its harder when guys sag off you man, its harder to penetrate. There a balance, obviously, you dont want to give a guy like Bron enough room to build momentum going towards the rim and if you sag off Rondo too much, it can make it easier for him to survey defenses and make passes with little to no pressure on him. But when it comes to shooting, the better the shooter the harder the decision and a much smaller room for error. Personally speaking, I know I have a guy on a string when hes convinced I can pull up at any moment, or at the least hit set shots if he just completely sags in the triple threat. If I hit my first 2 jumpers, its over 1v1.

I've seen these type of articles before, everytime Steph is brought up, they all mention how it begins and ends with his J. Its harder to stick guys if you're playing them tight because theres just no leeway in terms of reacting/shadowing the ball handler. It depends on the entire package.

BTW, whats everyones favorite attack move? CP3 and Tmac were some of the few I remember blasting guys with the Shamgod, I really wish I knew how to do that but Im not sure how much it would help my game. Seems like alot of effort for creating a simple jumper.

I cant do anything with my left hand some Im limited in what I can try and recreate but I've done my version of Jamals shake and bake move. Its a good way to start the game against strangers, keeps the pressure down the rest of the game even if you miss the J.

My main move is my head fake, I learned it from Kobe in the triple threat. I dont know why it works but everyone always gives me those first 1.5 steps I need the first time I whip it out. I've been playing at our parks "D-League" lately but I've actually had success with it against relatively superior athletes than myself as well.

tredigs
09-24-2015, 06:07 PM
Its harder when guys sag off you man, its harder to penetrate. There a balance, obviously, you dont want to give a guy like Bron enough room to build momentum going towards the rim and if you sag off Rondo too much, it can make it easier for him to survey defenses and make passes with little to no pressure on him. But when it comes to shooting, the better the shooter the harder the decision and a much smaller room for error. Personally speaking, I know I have a guy on a string when hes convinced I can pull up at any moment, or at the least hit set shots if he just completely sags in the triple threat. If I hit my first 2 jumpers, its over 1v1.

I've seen these type of articles before, everytime Steph is brought up, they all mention how it begins and ends with his J. Its harder to stick guys if you're playing them tight because theres just no leeway in terms of reacting/shadowing the ball handler. It depends on the entire package.

BTW, whats everyones favorite attack move? CP3 and Tmac were some of the few I remember blasting guys with the Shamgod, I really wish I knew how to do that but Im not sure how much it would help my game. Seems like alot of effort for creating a simple jumper.

I cant do anything with my left hand some Im limited in what I can try and recreate but I've done my version of Jamals shake and bake move. Its a good way to start the game against strangers, keeps the pressure down the rest of the game even if you miss the J.

My main move is my head fake, I learned it from Kobe in the triple threat. I dont know why it works but everyone always gives me those first 1.5 steps I need the first time I whip it out. I've been playing at our parks "D-League" lately but I've actually had success with it against relatively superior athletes than myself as well.
I mean, you're just using a different arsenal. When I played competitively and was sagged on my dribble was a lot less important and it was just about finding an angle with one quick cut + burst. When you see the best moves in the game it's from players creating space in a 2 foot ISO bubble so they can hit their J or get the defender off balance enough to open the lane for them.

And no homer but given the attention and his constant ability to create space almost without fail, I do think Curry has the most impressive handles in the game at this point. It's something he's improved on tremendously in the NBA as well, which isn't too common.

Chronz
09-24-2015, 07:38 PM
I mean, you're just using a different arsenal. When I played competitively and was sagged on my dribble was a lot less important and it was just about finding an angle with one quick cut + burst. When you see the best moves in the game it's from players creating space in a 2 foot ISO bubble so they can hit their J or get the defender off balance enough to open the lane for them.

And no homer but given the attention and his constant ability to create space almost without fail, I do think Curry has the most impressive handles in the game at this point. It's something he's improved on tremendously in the NBA as well, which isn't too common.

I was watching a few game breakdowns of Rookie Steph and the difference in his handle stood out the most. Its so much more fluid now, hes also bulked up abit more so Im sure that helps stay on balance when he does drive. It has to make a difference having that confidence. But yeah, its something hes really worked at.

Hawkeye15
09-25-2015, 01:15 AM
wont argue with his list.

For my money, Zeke is the best ball handler I have ever seen.

LA_Raiders
09-25-2015, 01:21 AM
Not bad, but I don't know about harden

Hawkeye15
09-25-2015, 10:49 AM
Not bad, but I don't know about harden

he has awesome handles. It's one of the reasons he can snake through the lane so easily, shifting side to side as he feels his defender. It's one of the reasons he is arguably the hardest scorer to guard 1-1, if not THE hardest.

MonroeFAN
09-25-2015, 11:26 AM
No mention of Iverson?

Seems like a list of active players. I don't think there's any chance a majority of these players would be listed in a top 5 all time list.

Unless I misunderstood your comment.

tredigs
09-25-2015, 12:15 PM
Seems like a list of active players. I don't think there's any chance a majority of these players would be listed in a top 5 all time list.

Unless I misunderstood your comment.

I think Curry/Kyrie/CP3 would have to be discussed for top 5 All Time. What would your list look like?

MonroeFAN
09-25-2015, 03:06 PM
I think Curry/Kyrie/CP3 would have to be discussed for top 5 All Time. What would your list look like?

Not sure tbh, so I won't challenge your opinion on it. It is slightly difficult for me to accept the idea that in a league that's been around since the 40's, 60% of the best ball handlers of all time are active players.

tredigs
09-25-2015, 03:45 PM
Not sure tbh, so I won't challenge your opinion on it. It is slightly difficult for me to accept the idea that in a league that's been around since the 40's, 60% of the best ball handlers of all time are active players.

I mean, back in the day when palming was enforced they were forced to dribble in an entirely different fashion (part of the reason why watching games from the 50's can look so funny to us now), so it's tough to compare that era to ours in regards to dribbling. But from say the 1970's on, most top 5 lists would probably be some combo of Zeke, Pistol Pete, J Williams, Iverson (palmed WAY too much for me to have him top 5, but a lot of people would include him), Jordan (more so because he was so innovative at the time and created a lot of the moves we still see today) and Tim Hardaway. And realistically I have Curry/CP3/Irving right in the thick of that list. I mean, look at Curry's handles from this ONE GAME alone last year against OKC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=12&v=ZurA01IYulE

That's about as good as it gets.

flea
09-25-2015, 07:19 PM
None of Curry, Paul, or Kyrie would be on my top 5 all-time handles list. Bogues, Nash, Thomas, Jason Williams, and Kidd/Stockton/Jordan probably round out mine, would have to think about it a bit more.

flea
09-25-2015, 07:41 PM
With all the Wade homers acting like he's still a top 20 player around here I'm surprised he hasn't gotten more love here. I think he's got the best handles among non-PGs right now.

tredigs
09-25-2015, 09:24 PM
I just typed in "best ballhandlers in NBA history" and just clicked on the first 5 lists.

#1 had it: 10: Rafer Alston - 9: CP3 - 8: Zeke - 7: Hardaway - 6: Curry - 5: Kyrie - 4: Jamal Crawford - 3: Jason Williams - 2: Pistol Pete - 1: Allen Iverson

#2 had it: 10: Jordan - 9: CP3 - 8: Kyrie - 7: Hardaway - 6: Nash - 5: Pistol Pete - 4: Iverson - 3: Jason Williams - 2: Zeke - 1: Curry

#3 had it: 10: Kenny Anderson - 9: Kyrie - 8: God Shammgod - 7: Penny Hardaway - 6: Tim Hardaway - 5: AI - 4: Rafer Alston - 3: Zeke - 2: Jamal Crawford - 1: Jason Williams

#4 had it: 10: D Rose - 9: Kyrie - 8: CP3 - 7: Nash - 6: Tim Hardaway - 5: Rondo - 4: Curry - 3: Zeke - 2: AI - 1: Jason Williams

#5 was for current players and had it: 10: Conley - 9: Lawson - 8: Kemba Walker - 7: Tony Parker - 6: Rondo - 5: Jamal Crawford - 4: CP3 - 3: James Harden - 2: Curry - 1: Kyrie

And one of the links was a link from before the Finals where Lebron is saying that Curry and Kyrie are two of the best ballhandlers in the games history. They asked Curry about it and he also mentioned Jamal Crawford and CP3 as the best right now.

Sly Guy
09-27-2015, 04:30 PM
No mention of Iverson?

this list is a currently playing list. An all time list would undoubtedly look different and include guys like tim hardaway and AI.

MonroeFAN
09-28-2015, 07:49 AM
^I posted the same exact thing and was told I was wrong.