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View Full Version : Current Top-15 Players in the NBA (#13)



Shammyguy3
09-15-2015, 09:35 AM
Choose from the poll options and debate who the current Top 15 best players in the NBA are. This should not be based on who had the best season last year, but rather who you would choose for a team in order to win right now.

Additional options will be added as we go along based on who will realistically receive votes at that level (or if players are requested in the thread).


1. Lebron (73% of the vote)
2. Durant (55% of the vote)
3. Curry (55% of the vote)
4. Davis (50% of the vote)
5. Harden (57% of the vote)
6. Paul (52% of the vote)
7. Westbrook (82% of the vote)
8. Griffin (59% of the vote)
9. Cousins (29% of the vote)
10. Leonard (39% of the vote)
11. Gasol (41% of the vote)
12. Melo (28% of the vote)
13. ?

Shammyguy3
09-15-2015, 09:38 AM
I'm going with Jimmy Buckets again

QuatreBarton
09-15-2015, 11:11 AM
I voted Dwight Howard, how the hell did Melo beat half of these people left?

SteBO
09-15-2015, 12:36 PM
I voted Dwight Howard, how the hell did Melo beat half of these people left?
Not enough voters and...well you know the rest. Anyway, Jimmy Butler again here.

ClipsFanSince98
09-15-2015, 12:57 PM
I went ahead and picked Butler although it's debatable.

ManRam
09-15-2015, 03:21 PM
I'll continue my crusade against Jimmy Butler being rated this highly. Perhaps I'm being too stubborn but I'm not 100% sold on his offensive improvements last season. His offensive impact was real, I just still see too many things I don't like. I also think his defense is a tad bit overvalued; he's closer to a top-10 defensive SG than a top-3. I'm just not sold on him quite yet as a #1 player on a team...but he can prove me wrong quickly now.

FlashBolt
09-15-2015, 04:11 PM
I have a hard time picking Butler. He's a very good player but Tim Duncan has results to back it up. He might not play as many minutes as Butler does but when he does play, he performs on an elite level. Not to mention this question is WHO DO YOU THINK WILL GIVE YOU THE BEST CHANCE AT WINNING. I don't think anyone else on this list does that better than Tim.

tredigs
09-15-2015, 04:38 PM
Honestly it's tough and I can very much understand Man/Flash's takes here. Personally, I just think Jimmy is an absolute beast/workhorse and the fact that he added a reliable 3pt shot to his game makes him absolutely deadly. This is a guy who could be the best player on a title winning team, I have no doubt about that. Top 5 player? No. But he's battling with Kawhi in the well rounded quiet/monster mix for future Finals MVP's.

If I get a choice to have to win this year and the only players available are Jimmy Butler or Tim Duncan, I'd actually go with Jimmy.

Bruno
09-15-2015, 06:09 PM
I'll continue my crusade against Jimmy Butler being rated this highly. Perhaps I'm being too stubborn but I'm not 100% sold on his offensive improvements last season. His offensive impact was real, I just still see too many things I don't like. I also think his defense is a tad bit overvalued; he's closer to a top-10 defensive SG than a top-3. I'm just not sold on him quite yet as a #1 player on a team...but he can prove me wrong quickly now.

A true shooting increase from .522% to .583%, combined with his offensive win shares nearly quadropling from 2.4 in 2013-2014 to 8.2 last year isn't enough for you to be sold on his offensive improvements?

also, why does it matter if he's the solidified "#1 option"? his impact is him impact.

flea
09-15-2015, 06:12 PM
Does Butler really have a "reliable 3 pt shot" though? I haven't seen it if he does, and his team really could have used it in the playoffs. He's fine to spot-up when he's wide open but seems streaky to me - maybe a Bulls fan can weigh in. What I saw last year was a good transition player, good slasher, okay post option if he has a size advantage, and a decent shooter off the dribble. Still a lot of holes in his offensive game for a guard.

I'm okay with him here, he's a better play than Melo but NBA fans just love PPG. I'll still take a 2-way big over both.

Bruno
09-15-2015, 06:12 PM
I have a hard time picking Butler. He's a very good player but Tim Duncan has results to back it up. He might not play as many minutes as Butler does but when he does play, he performs on an elite level. Not to mention this question is WHO DO YOU THINK WILL GIVE YOU THE BEST CHANCE AT WINNING. I don't think anyone else on this list does that better than Tim.
Combine all regular season and post-season games from last season and Butler surpassed Duncan in WS/48.


Honestly it's tough and I can very much understand Man/Flash's takes here. Personally, I just think Jimmy is an absolute beast/workhorse and the fact that he added a reliable 3pt shot to his game makes him absolutely deadly. This is a guy who could be the best player on a title winning team, I have no doubt about that. Top 5 player? No. But he's battling with Kawhi in the well rounded quiet/monster mix for future Finals MVP's.

If I get a choice to have to win this year and the only players available are Jimmy Butler or Tim Duncan, I'd actually go with Jimmy.

why? i think they're both late to the party. ...the bucket party.

Bruno
09-15-2015, 06:16 PM
Does Butler really have a "reliable 3 pt shot" though? I haven't seen it if he does, and his team really could have used it in the playoffs. He's fine to spot-up when he's wide open but seems streaky to me - maybe a Bulls fan can weigh in. What I saw last year was a good transition player, good slasher, okay post option if he has a size advantage, and a decent shooter off the dribble. Still a lot of holes in his offensive game for a guard.

I'm okay with him here, he's a better play than Melo but NBA fans just love PPG. I'll still take a 2-way big over both.

In the regular season he shot 38% on 3 attempts per game, and he improved that mark in the post-season 39% on six attempts per game. Which is great.

Jimmy is a two way asset.

flea
09-15-2015, 06:24 PM
In the regular season he shot 38% on 3 attempts per game, and he improved that mark in the post-season 39% on six attempts per game. Which is great.

Jimmy is a two way asset.

Yes I can see his stats, but averaging 1 3-pointer per game is not very much. He shoots the 3 less than Lebron even, and nobody could consider him a reliable 3 point threat at any point in his career. Functional and efficient for a ball-dominant slasher? Yes. Reliable are people like Middleton, Korver, Danny Green, etc.

Shammyguy3
09-15-2015, 08:48 PM
Let me lead the Jimmy Buckets train


I'll continue my crusade against Jimmy Butler being rated this highly. Perhaps I'm being too stubborn but I'm not 100% sold on his offensive improvements last season. His offensive impact was real, I just still see too many things I don't like. I also think his defense is a tad bit overvalued; he's closer to a top-10 defensive SG than a top-3. I'm just not sold on him quite yet as a #1 player on a team...but he can prove me wrong quickly now.

What things have you seen that you don't like? And as someone else commented on his offense (i believe Bruno), his offensive game is ridiculous in my opinion. He literally scores in every facet a guard can score in. He NEVER turns the ball over, is ridiculously efficient even with a dumbass guard in Derrick next to him and a stubborn coach in Thibs who doesn't run any offensive sets for him. Jimmy butler absolutely earns his on the offensive end, and does it in an efficient way while opening up shooters thanks to his great ability to force double teams on his drives (while also drawing an immense amount of fouls)


I have a hard time picking Butler. He's a very good player but Tim Duncan has results to back it up. He might not play as many minutes as Butler does but when he does play, he performs on an elite level. Not to mention this question is WHO DO YOU THINK WILL GIVE YOU THE BEST CHANCE AT WINNING. I don't think anyone else on this list does that better than Tim.

Butler provides elite play on both sides while having perhaps the greatest minutes load. That in itself is more valuable than a player that can't play 30+ minutes a game and play every game during the season


Does Butler really have a "reliable 3 pt shot" though? I haven't seen it if he does, and his team really could have used it in the playoffs. He's fine to spot-up when he's wide open but seems streaky to me - maybe a Bulls fan can weigh in. What I saw last year was a good transition player, good slasher, okay post option if he has a size advantage, and a decent shooter off the dribble. Still a lot of holes in his offensive game for a guard.

I'm okay with him here, he's a better play than Melo but NBA fans just love PPG. I'll still take a 2-way big over both.

Semantics for what you deem "reliable." Bruno already commented on Butler's 3 point shooting in the regular season and post-season.

Also, his efg% increases in the second half from the first half.

This is the second time I've seen someone claim that Butler has a lot of holes in his offensive game. I'd like to hear what you think those are


Yes I can see his stats, but averaging 1 3-pointer per game is not very much. He shoots the 3 less than Lebron even, and nobody could consider him a reliable 3 point threat at any point in his career. Functional and efficient for a ball-dominant slasher? Yes. Reliable are people like Middleton, Korver, Danny Green, etc.

Lebron has absolutely been a reliable 3 point threat in his career. Maybe people haven't considered him one. But those same very people consider Kobe to be a reliable 3 point threat for his career. Guess who has a better career %, better career high% in a single season, better playoff career best from deep? It's Lebron.

So i think part of this is just misconception for Jimmy, because having watched all of his games he is well worthy of this spot

CousinsEvansDUO
09-15-2015, 11:07 PM
I'm going with Rudy Gay here, most underrated player in the NBA, with a bigger impact than MELO.

tredigs
09-15-2015, 11:30 PM
I'm going with Rudy Gay here, most underrated player in the NBA, with a bigger impact than MELO.

If we make it to top 50 your voice will surely be heard young Jedi. Stick around.

MELO 15
09-15-2015, 11:40 PM
If we make it to top 50 your voice will surely be heard young Jedi. Stick around.

I know right! Some people are crazy!

MELO 15
09-16-2015, 12:03 AM
I'm going with Rudy Gay here, most underrated player in the NBA, with a bigger impact than MELO.

Really? Really?!

Dade County
09-16-2015, 12:06 AM
If we make it to top 50 your voice will surely be heard young Jedi. Stick around.


:laugh2:

FlashBolt
09-16-2015, 03:04 AM
Combine all regular season and post-season games from last season and Butler surpassed Duncan in WS/48.

why? i think they're both late to the party. ...the bucket party.


He also surpasses LeBron James as well. And I think it's safe to say that no one would take Butler over LeBron.


Let me lead the Jimmy Buckets train



What things have you seen that you don't like? And as someone else commented on his offense (i believe Bruno), his offensive game is ridiculous in my opinion. He literally scores in every facet a guard can score in. He NEVER turns the ball over, is ridiculously efficient even with a dumbass guard in Derrick next to him and a stubborn coach in Thibs who doesn't run any offensive sets for him. Jimmy butler absolutely earns his on the offensive end, and does it in an efficient way while opening up shooters thanks to his great ability to force double teams on his drives (while also drawing an immense amount of fouls)



Butler provides elite play on both sides while having perhaps the greatest minutes load. That in itself is more valuable than a player that can't play 30+ minutes a game and play every game during the season



Semantics for what you deem "reliable." Bruno already commented on Butler's 3 point shooting in the regular season and post-season.

Also, his efg% increases in the second half from the first half.

This is the second time I've seen someone claim that Butler has a lot of holes in his offensive game. I'd like to hear what you think those are



Lebron has absolutely been a reliable 3 point threat in his career. Maybe people haven't considered him one. But those same very people consider Kobe to be a reliable 3 point threat for his career. Guess who has a better career %, better career high% in a single season, better playoff career best from deep? It's Lebron.

So i think part of this is just misconception for Jimmy, because having watched all of his games he is well worthy of this spot

I don't look at it like that tbh. More minutes is a great thing for sure but I also see it as a sacrifice on a team. Tim Duncan plays 30 minutes or whatever and plays elite on both ends. He's always consistent and incredibly effective when needed. Just look at the playoffs and what he was able to do. Furthermore, one season isn't enough proof for me.

tredigs
09-16-2015, 03:10 AM
Seems strange to me that a full regular season+playoffs of basketball is not enough proof for you to recognize where a player stands. Is your take that he may have lucked his way into that production? Seems odd. That's 80 games from the guy who led the league in minutes played. There are Hall Of Fame NFL careers with less minutes played than that lol.

FlashBolt
09-16-2015, 03:25 AM
Seems strange to me that a full regular season+playoffs of basketball is not enough proof for you to recognize where a player stands. Is your take that he may have lucked his way into that production? Seems odd. That's 80 games from the guy who led the league in minutes played. There are Hall Of Fame NFL careers with less minutes played than that lol.

Just rather have a player who is proven, still proves it, and is a 5x champion than someone who will have to play alongside Rose for a season again and has only had one great season. He went from shooting 45% or whatever to under 40%, then back to 45% the next season. One guy has had an entire career's worth of dominance, the other I can count with one finger.

tredigs
09-16-2015, 03:37 AM
Fair enough, and Duncan certainly has a case here. But personally, I feel like I know/understand what talent level a player is at after a ~3 thousand minute sample size. And Jimmy is currently playing at a higher level than anyone on the board imo. John Wall also has a case.

kdspurman
09-16-2015, 09:20 AM
Lebron has absolutely been a reliable 3 point threat in his career. Maybe people haven't considered him one. But those same very people consider Kobe to be a reliable 3 point threat for his career. Guess who has a better career %, better career high% in a single season, better playoff career best from deep? It's Lebron.

So i think part of this is just misconception for Jimmy, because having watched all of his games he is well worthy of this spot

I don't think he was most of his career, I feel like it was something he picked up on 7-8 years into his career. He relied so much on his body to plow through people, but his shooting was not so great from 3 or mid range. You could live with him shooting the ball. As he got older and in particular in Miami he really started to pick and choose when to shoot and worked on his mid range game. He gotten smarter as he's aged. Lebron may have had a higher % at times but it's probably more due to volume IMO. Kobe was a guy you had to get up on whereas Lebron you're more concerned with him driving.

I don't disagree about Jimmy deserving this spot, though I see the argument for TD.

thenaj17
09-16-2015, 09:54 AM
I have a hard time picking Butler. He's a very good player but Tim Duncan has results to back it up. He might not play as many minutes as Butler does but when he does play, he performs on an elite level. Not to mention this question is WHO DO YOU THINK WILL GIVE YOU THE BEST CHANCE AT WINNING. I don't think anyone else on this list does that better than Tim.

Not sure how Tim Duncan can be a top 12 player when he's not even top 2, maybe 3 on his own team anymore

Tony_Starks
09-16-2015, 10:40 AM
John Wall

tredigs
09-16-2015, 12:24 PM
Not sure how Tim Duncan can be a top 12 player when he's not even top 2, maybe 3 on his own team anymore

Ooh Ooh I know this one!

Because be anchors a contender and there is another top 10 player on his team. DING.

Also, maybe not top 2/3 on his team? The hell are you talking about? lol.

Bruno
09-16-2015, 03:49 PM
Yes I can see his stats, but averaging 1 3-pointer per game is not very much. He shoots the 3 less than Lebron even, and nobody could consider him a reliable 3 point threat at any point in his career. Functional and efficient for a ball-dominant slasher? Yes. Reliable are people like Middleton, Korver, Danny Green, etc.

Khris Middleton 2015 playoffs- 11/34, 32.4%
Jimmy Butler 2015 playoffs- 28/72, 39%.
Kyle Korver 2015 playoffs- 39/110, 35.5%
Danny Green 2015 playoffs- 12/40, 30%

Even excellent proven shooters like the three you mention can go through bouts of being unreliable when all the marbles are on the table during the playoffs. when teams have time to create legitimate and creative defensive game plans that can essentially take spot up shooters out of the game. Had Middleton, Korver and Green shot on the reliable level we've grown accustomed to seeing from them, the Spurs would have won, and the other two series would have been closer. Jimmy is new to the ranks, but he's shot 38% from three in the playoffs dating back to 2012-2013 on 130 attempts. Jimmys 39% is all the more impressive when you consider how the other three guys get most of their looks off the catch and shoot. but when the real season starts, those looks dry up real fast.

flea
09-16-2015, 04:01 PM
Khris Middleton 2015 playoffs- 11/34, 32.4%
Jimmy Butler 2015 playoffs- 28/72, 39%.
Kyle Korver 2015 playoffs- 39/110, 35.5%
Danny Green 2015 playoffs- 12/40, 30%

Even excellent proven shooters like the three you mention can go through bouts of being unreliable when all the marbles are on the table during the playoffs. when teams have time to create legitimate and creative defensive game plans that can essentially take spot up shooters out of the game. Had Middleton, Korver and Green shot on the reliable level we've grown accustomed to seeing from them, the Spurs would have won, and the other two series would have been closer. Jimmy is new to the ranks, but he's shot 38% from three in the playoffs dating back to 2012-2013 on 130 attempts. Jimmys 39% is all the more impressive when you consider how the other three guys get most of their looks off the catch and shoot. but when the real season starts, those looks dry up real fast.

He shot better than I thought in playoffs, but I need to see more than 1 season of good shooting (making only 1 attempt per game) to say he's reliable. He is a 31% shooter before this year from 3. Look at his shot chart and you can see why I'm skeptical of his reliability - he picks his spots and practices them like Lebron but that doesn't make you a reliable shooter, it makes you an effective one. Nearly all his 3s are from the wings, where slashers often start their moves, and a few in the corners.

This (http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/g/greenda02/shooting/2015/) is what a shot chart from a reliable 3 point threat looks like. Yeah shooters go cold, all the great ones do for entire playoff runs sometimes. Allen, Miller, Dirk, the best of them. And Green is streakier than a lot of shooters - but the streakiness also has to do with how they're guarded and the types of looks they get. Adding to my skepticism for Jimmy Butler's shooting is how awful he is in the midrange. I'm not sure I'd say he's a better shooter than Kawhi Leonard - and Kawhi is another guy I wouldn't exactly call "reliable" yet.

Shammyguy3
09-16-2015, 06:16 PM
How is an effective shooter not a reliable shooter? Makes no sense to argue one as fact and the other as fallacy. Jimmy Butler's one of the smartest players on the court when it comes to offense in my opinion. He can't run an offense like Nash, or carry a scoring load like Russell Westbrook. But he knows where players are supposed to be, he demands the ball when needed. He creates not just for himself, but for others. He scores on the ball and off the ball. He's a threat from everyone on the court. His mid-range needs improvement, sure. But he's a monster otherwise.

This past year, Jimmy Butler put up 20.0/5.8/3.3 with 1.8 steals a game. His efficiency numbers were a 122 ORtg, 0.214 Ws/48 58.3ts% 21.3 PER 7.7tov% 21.6usg% 4.7 BPM 4.2 VORP.

In the post-season he put up 22.9/5.6/3.2 with 2.4 steals a game guarding Lebron James for 6 games. His efficiency numbers throughout the playoffs were a 115 ORtg, 0.203 Ws/48 56.2ts% 20.8 PER 7.9tov% 23.9usg% 6.0 BPM and 1.0 VORP.

ManRam
09-16-2015, 08:38 PM
A true shooting increase from .522% to .583%, combined with his offensive win shares nearly quadropling from 2.4 in 2013-2014 to 8.2 last year isn't enough for you to be sold on his offensive improvements?

also, why does it matter if he's the solidified "#1 option"? his impact is him impact.

His impact wasn't that of a top-15 player. He had an impact, and a very positive one...but I think we're getting carried away here.

I understand what he did last year. His efficiency jumped as did his usage. That's impressive. I also understand that not everyone who takes a huge step forward one year continues to do so, or even just maintains that. I'm going off of prejudices and memories of an older version of him. I think he had a lot of ups and downs last year, but I think the ups were the best we'll see from him. I don't think he has the offensive arsenal to really take it to the next level that you'd expect a superstar to. He did a tremendous job getting to the line which boosted his efficiency a ton, but it's the rest of his scoring game that I'm still skeptical about.

I get why this might seem like a preposterous claim, but I think we've seen his peak offensive play already during stretches last year. I'm still scarred by some hideous shot charts for the majority of his career. I still see a guy whose shot just looks weird to me. I'd probably be arguing against myself here, but again, I'm gonna be stubborn with this and go with my gut. I think what Jimmy showed last year is what Jimmy has to offer...and I don't think that's a top-15 player in the NBA :shrug:

Look, if it doesn't sound rational it's because maybe it's not. I guess it's that good ol' eye test thing everyone is always raving about. We'll see after next year. I posit that he won't be a top-15 player. That's all.

I don't think it's an atrocity either that he's voted here, however. Don't think that. These guys all have their issues.

mrblisterdundee
09-16-2015, 09:16 PM
I made the cardinal mistake of voting as if a player was healthy. When healthy, I think Paul George is the best player left on this list.
We're in the age of hybrids, and while Jimmy Buckets can proficiently play two positions, George can play three. They both made recent leaps in production, but George's was greater. Butler scores more, but George gets more rebounds and assists, and I think he's a slightly better defender because of his length.

D-Leethal
09-17-2015, 11:10 AM
Duncan

Chronz
09-17-2015, 11:24 AM
Why has LMA fallen off in so many's eyes? What about Bosh? We used to say Bosh sacrificed his #'s for winning, now that hes no longer winning and putting up worse numbers than years prior, are we seeing him for what he is or has he declined?

LMA used to be considered ahead of Blake and on par with Duncan IIRC, whats happened?

ghettosean
09-17-2015, 12:08 PM
Why has LMA fallen off in so many's eyes? What about Bosh? We used to say Bosh sacrificed his #'s for winning, now that hes no longer winning and putting up worse numbers than years prior, are we seeing him for what he is or has he declined?

LMA used to be considered ahead of Blake and on par with Duncan IIRC, whats happened?

We might have to wait for Bosh to play a full season before we can mark him up in that bracket. Though I'm not sure anyone considered him to be a top 15 player in the league at any point maybe a top 20 and definitely a top PF for sure.

mrblisterdundee
09-17-2015, 12:38 PM
Why has LMA fallen off in so many's eyes? What about Bosh? We used to say Bosh sacrificed his #'s for winning, now that hes no longer winning and putting up worse numbers than years prior, are we seeing him for what he is or has he declined?

LMA used to be considered ahead of Blake and on par with Duncan IIRC, whats happened?

I think people might expect Aldridge to blend into the Spurs, thus stunting his individual accolades, similar to Bosh. It is an absolutely stacked team, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a usage rate of 20 percent.
I'm guilty of that too. But for all we know, the Spurs could send Duncan, Leonard and Aldridge to the all-star game.

Sadds The Gr8
09-17-2015, 12:42 PM
Why has LMA fallen off in so many's eyes? What about Bosh? We used to say Bosh sacrificed his #'s for winning, now that hes no longer winning and putting up worse numbers than years prior, are we seeing him for what he is or has he declined?

LMA used to be considered ahead of Blake and on par with Duncan IIRC, whats happened?

probably the poor playoff play this yr, even tho it's tough to blame that all on him. He'll prolly be closer to top 10 next year after ppl see him in SA

Chronz
09-17-2015, 12:49 PM
We might have to wait for Bosh to play a full season before we can mark him up in that bracket. Though I'm not sure anyone considered him to be a top 15 player in the league at any point maybe a top 20 and definitely a top PF for sure.
Where would we put him then? We're gonna have to come to a decision on Paul George eventually, just to project.

Bosh played half a season right, thats a decent chunk to assess but I do think he'll bounce back abit this year.

Chronz
09-17-2015, 12:56 PM
I think people might expect Aldridge to blend into the Spurs, thus stunting his individual accolades, similar to Bosh. It is an absolutely stacked team, and I wouldn't be surprised to see a usage rate of 20 percent.
I'm guilty of that too. But for all we know, the Spurs could send Duncan, Leonard and Aldridge to the all-star game.
Yeah, I just hope he get the benefit of the doubt the way Bosh did and Love did not in making that All-Star game. If his 2-way efficiency improves, then hes basically the same player just impacting the game differently. I was actually thinking of making a thread on his fit with the Spurs but its abit played out these days. Still, Im very curious to see how he blends in there. There are only 3 possibilities, he himself becomes more efficient and helps the Spurs much more, he remains about the same efficiency wise but the attention he draws opens up the game for others and they become more efficient. Or the backbreaking combo, hes less efficient and only bogs down an offense that hums with the best of them without him.



probably the poor playoff play this yr, even tho it's tough to blame that all on him. He'll prolly be closer to top 10 next year after ppl see him in SA

True, I've always held that against him, aside from the Houston series, I dont recall him ever really elevating his play, true its not all on him but alot of it is.

kdspurman
09-17-2015, 12:59 PM
probably the poor playoff play this yr, even tho it's tough to blame that all on him. He'll prolly be closer to top 10 next year after ppl see him in SA

Wasn't he playing after having surgery on his thumb too?

kdspurman
09-17-2015, 01:01 PM
Yeah, I just hope he get the benefit of the doubt the way Bosh did and Love did not in making that All-Star game. If his 2-way efficiency improves, then hes basically the same player just impacting the game differently. I was actually thinking of making a thread on his fit with the Spurs but its abit played out these days. Still, Im very curious to see how he blends in there. There are only 3 possibilities, he himself becomes more efficient and helps the Spurs much more, he remains about the same efficiency wise but the attention he draws opens up the game for others and they become more efficient. Or the backbreaking combo, hes less efficient and only bogs down an offense that hums with the best of them without him. .

Idk if you saw Zach Lowe's article on LMA's fit, but it's probably one of the better one's I've seen this summer.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-adjustment-bureau-how-lamarcus-aldridge-will-fit-in-with-the-spurs/

Sadds The Gr8
09-17-2015, 01:02 PM
Wasn't he playing after having surgery on his thumb too?

yea, that also

ghettosean
09-17-2015, 01:06 PM
We might have to wait for Bosh to play a full season before we can mark him up in that bracket. Though I'm not sure anyone considered him to be a top 15 player in the league at any point maybe a top 20 and definitely a top PF for sure.
Where would we put him then? We're gonna have to come to a decision on Paul George eventually, just to project.

Bosh played half a season right, thats a decent chunk to assess but I do think he'll bounce back abit this year.

Honestly that's a tough question I really don't know. At least with George you know he was a top 5 player at one point. Bosh is too hard to gauge last year was really his time to prove that he's still a franchise player since playing behind Wade and Bosh I think it will be more of a wait and see where he's at but I'd rate him as a top 20 - 25 player right now. I'd prefer to see consistency before making a true ranking on him though.

flea
09-17-2015, 02:28 PM
Idk if you saw Zach Lowe's article on LMA's fit, but it's probably one of the better one's I've seen this summer.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-adjustment-bureau-how-lamarcus-aldridge-will-fit-in-with-the-spurs/

I don't really like Lowe most of the time, but I'll give this a shot later. I read up to where he calls Aldridge "damn near Nowitzkian from midrange" and shut it down for now. Nobody is damn near Nowitzkian from midrange except Larry Bird. Aldridge is "Boshian" on his best days. Very good midrange, very good mid-post, very good low-post and in the paint. Dirk is something else.

No idea why there's any worry over the fit, though. Instead of having 2 bigs with range on the roster, the Spurs now have 4. They can play giant lineups and beat up on small-ball teams. They'll be top 5-7 on offense unless the guards really go down the toilet. My question is around things like Diaw's role: does he play SF some more like he did earlier in his career? Could we ever seen a hilarious lineup like Diaw/Green/Leonard/Aldridge/Duncan to really stick it to these small-ball midgets and their zone defenses? I hope so.

Chronz
09-17-2015, 03:11 PM
I don't really like Lowe most of the time, but I'll give this a shot later. I read up to where he calls Aldridge "damn near Nowitzkian from midrange" and shut it down for now. Nobody is damn near Nowitzkian from midrange except Larry Bird. Aldridge is "Boshian" on his best days. Very good midrange, very good mid-post, very good low-post and in the paint. Dirk is something else.

No idea why there's any worry over the fit, though. Instead of having 2 bigs with range on the roster, the Spurs now have 4. They can play giant lineups and beat up on small-ball teams. They'll be top 5-7 on offense unless the guards really go down the toilet. My question is around things like Diaw's role: does he play SF some more like he did earlier in his career? Could we ever seen a hilarious lineup like Diaw/Green/Leonard/Aldridge/Duncan to really stick it to these small-ball midgets and their zone defenses? I hope so.
Firstly, Lowe is the best.
Secondly, he IS damn near Nowitzkian, its the reason his teams have been able to survive his own relative inefficiencies. Because if you leave him open, its a high% weapon, that attention opens up the games for his teammates ala Dirk. What keeps him from being Dirk is that he cant accomplish that intangible with actual tangibles like elite level efficiency, Dirk is deadly even when you're up tight on him. Dirk is also a MUCH better passer.

I dont know how I feel about Bosh anymore.

As for the fit, he details a few reasons why and both sides (LMA and the Spurs system) know they will have to adjust abit. Splitter was a high% rim attacker and both West and LMA prefer to drift out and PnPop. Which is great but they do lack an element that opens up the game for their snipers. Diaw's role is unclear but he might have to play alongside West in an undersized bench mob, another worry for the fit.

But yes, Lowe states they got LMA specifically with small ball in mind. The way the league is trending, its a great bet. But we will truly find out how important LMA's spacing was to his teammates this year.

kdspurman
09-17-2015, 03:15 PM
I don't really like Lowe most of the time, but I'll give this a shot later. I read up to where he calls Aldridge "damn near Nowitzkian from midrange" and shut it down for now. Nobody is damn near Nowitzkian from midrange except Larry Bird. Aldridge is "Boshian" on his best days. Very good midrange, very good mid-post, very good low-post and in the paint. Dirk is something else.

No idea why there's any worry over the fit, though. Instead of having 2 bigs with range on the roster, the Spurs now have 4. They can play giant lineups and beat up on small-ball teams. They'll be top 5-7 on offense unless the guards really go down the toilet. My question is around things like Diaw's role: does he play SF some more like he did earlier in his career? Could we ever seen a hilarious lineup like Diaw/Green/Leonard/Aldridge/Duncan to really stick it to these small-ball midgets and their zone defenses? I hope so.

I think Diaw can fit with just about any lineup. In the 2nd unit because West is a good midrange shooter, it'll allow him to play more in the post if need be which he is very good/comfortable, but he can also play outside and spread the floor since he is a respectable shooter.

I could see him sliding into the 3 in certain situations. Pop will have all year to see what lineups to close with and who works best with what unit

Chronz
09-17-2015, 03:17 PM
Idk if you saw Zach Lowe's article on LMA's fit, but it's probably one of the better one's I've seen this summer.

http://grantland.com/the-triangle/the-adjustment-bureau-how-lamarcus-aldridge-will-fit-in-with-the-spurs/

I have, I've also read blog posts on the matter, even one about why David West is a misfit with them. Here it is if you're interested.

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/8/29/9216949/david-west-is-more-a-luxury-than-a-need

and the follow up

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/9/7/9267183/david-west-fit-aldridge-diaw-duncan

ManRam
09-17-2015, 03:30 PM
Not sure how often, if ever, I've heard "I don't really like Lowe".


I do agree that there are some short term memory biases here. However, I think this is a really tough area to properly rank guys. Pretty conflated group. Not gonna get too up in arms about much here.

I think you can really open up and expand the polling choices soon. Dray, Millsap, DAJ, Bosh, Lowry, Horford, Lillard, Ibaka, etc. I think all have varying levels of compelling claims for the top-20.

phantasyyy
09-17-2015, 03:32 PM
Voted for PG. Hes had the opportunity to rehab all of last year, and even got to play in about 6/8 games if not mistaken. I think he'll come back and show that hes a top 15 player in the L. Especially with all the turnover the Pacers have had.

He is still a 2 way player, but it'll be interesting to see how he responds after having the entire summer to work out the kinks/rust in his game.

That said in regards to who is leading the vote here, I'd also put Butler>Duncan just because I think the Big Fundamentals impact will be limited even further for the regular season with huge additions in Aldridge and West. But then again whose going to be playing C? - they have that big 7'3 Serbian guy otherwise they'll have to go so small-ish with LA and West

kdspurman
09-17-2015, 03:36 PM
I have, I've also read blog posts on the matter, even one about why David West is a misfit with them. Here it is if you're interested.

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/8/29/9216949/david-west-is-more-a-luxury-than-a-need

and the follow up

http://www.poundingtherock.com/2015/9/7/9267183/david-west-fit-aldridge-diaw-duncan

Ah yes, I've seen these as well. I mean, I feel like because West has the mid-range shot in his repertoire, and with creators like Manu/Diaw, he should fit in. He'll essentially replace Baynes IMO, and Baynes pick & pop game improved once he got more time. He also became a good spot up mid range shooter. Maybe that's a too simplistic view, but I see West fitting in just fine.

It'll be interesting to see though, Pop will have his hands full. Fortunately he's got guys on the team who understand it'll be a process and won't have any pouting or anything.

Chronz
09-17-2015, 03:44 PM
I think Diaw can fit with just about any lineup. In the 2nd unit because West is a good midrange shooter, it'll allow him to play more in the post if need be which he is very good/comfortable, but he can also play outside and spread the floor since he is a respectable shooter.

I could see him sliding into the 3 in certain situations. Pop will have all year to see what lineups to close with and who works best with what unit

Can they survive defensively without Diaw playing alongside a true C tho? How good is West as a backup C? These are great problems to worry about BTW.

kdspurman
09-17-2015, 04:01 PM
Can they survive defensively without Diaw playing alongside a true C tho? How good is West as a backup C? These are great problems to worry about BTW.

The 2nd unit has not been the greatest defensively anyway, so while it is a problem, it's certainly not a new problem.

We'll see about West as a backup. Pop could end up subbing TD out early and playing him alongside Diaw more and letting West/LMA play more together. He'll have to get creative, but it's not exactly a bad problem to have

flea
09-17-2015, 04:02 PM
Firstly, Lowe is the best.

Types a lot of words, doesn't ever say very much that isn't fairly obvious. Typical Grantland fluff, but to each their own.


Secondly, he IS damn near Nowitzkian, its the reason his teams have been able to survive his own relative inefficiencies. Because if you leave him open, its a high% weapon, that attention opens up the games for his teammates ala Dirk. What keeps him from being Dirk is that he cant accomplish that intangible with actual tangibles like elite level efficiency, Dirk is deadly even when you're up tight on him. Dirk is also a MUCH better passer.

It's only "damn near Nowitzkian" in the same way that Westbrook is "damn near Jordanian." There have been plenty of jump-shooting big men in LMA's class, but he has a versatile offensive skillset buoyed by his consistency with his baseline fade. There have been no big men besides Bird in Dirk's class as a shooter, and opening up to guards only brings up Nash, Curry, and maybe a few others. Where LMA is pretty good in the midrange, Dirk is the gold standard. Maybe it's picking nits, but dumb analogies like that cheapen real NBA comparisons. What he meant to say was, "LMA is a very good shooter for a big."


I dont know how I feel about Bosh anymore.

I do, less athletic than he once was but has improved his already very good jumpshot. Now is a real danger from 3, instead of just a guy who flicks up a few every week or so.


As for the fit, he details a few reasons why and both sides (LMA and the Spurs system) know they will have to adjust abit. Splitter was a high% rim attacker and both West and LMA prefer to drift out and PnPop. Which is great but they do lack an element that opens up the game for their snipers. Diaw's role is unclear but he might have to play alongside West in an undersized bench mob, another worry for the fit.

But yes, Lowe states they got LMA specifically with small ball in mind. The way the league is trending, its a great bet. But we will truly find out how important LMA's spacing was to his teammates this year.

I haven't watched much West since NO but he's more than just a jumpshooter off picks. I blame general offensive ineptitude with personnel more than anything for his drift away from the rim in Indiana (Hibbert's presence, no real P&R guards to really base your offense around it, etc.). Might not have elite touch down low like Duncan and Aldridge, but he's got a big body and positions himself well. I think he'll be fine as an all-purpose backup big.

The funny thing about the Spurs is they didn't need any post help, they are already one of the best teams in the league there. I think Lowe is right that the slow-paced elbow work that LMA (and West) are used to will probably be out the window - if only because the Spurs guards really only offer offense at this point. I think if Aldridge is averaging very much over 20 that he's probably hurting the team.

5ass
09-17-2015, 05:24 PM
I agree with flea about Lamarcus being nowhere near Nowitzkian.
Nowtizki career:
10ft-16ft: 47%
16ft-3pt: 48%

Lamarcus:
10-16ft: 41%
16-3pt: 42%

Vucevic:
10-16ft: 45% (47% last season)
16-3pt: 43% (47% last season)

I always thought Aldridge was overrated. He's closer to Vucevic than Nowitzki. When he plays center, which he will often in san Antonio, he's a pretty bad defender, and not a great rebounder. As a center, I don't think he's much better than Vucevic. I just don't see why people think he's that good. I'll take Butler, Duncan, Wall, George, Thompson and possibly Wade and Howard over him.

FlashBolt
09-18-2015, 03:23 PM
People who vote Wade should explain their reasoning. It's laughable at this point...