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jakub
09-13-2015, 10:13 AM
Allen Iverson ‏@alleniverson 7m7 minutes ago
My condolences to the family and friends of Moses Malone. You will truly be missed. Rest in peace Big Mo!!!

Reggie Miller ‏@ReggieMillerTNT 13m13 minutes ago
My heart saddens once more, Moses Malone passes away at 60, way too soon.. Thoughts n prayer to the family.. #FoFoFo

Rest in peace big fella

lakerfan85
09-13-2015, 10:31 AM
Loved watching him play.. RIP

Chronz
09-13-2015, 10:41 AM
wow a true legend. first dr dunk now fofofo ? sixers legends leaving us too soon. wats with bigs dying young

xbrackattackx
09-13-2015, 10:52 AM
Loved his attitude toward the game and his tenacity. RIP Moses.

D-Leethal
09-13-2015, 11:38 AM
wow a true legend. first dr dunk now fofofo ? sixers legends leaving us too soon. wats with bigs dying young

I was just thinking the same thing. 60 is way too ****ing young for former pro athletes to keep dropping out on us.

xbrackattackx
09-13-2015, 11:59 AM
Wierd with some of these guys at the last couple of all star games. They mostly seemed healthy looking and not frail. Hopefully not results of partying at a younger age and wearing them down. Cause when you famous and have money you can party anywhere. Not implying Moses was like this at all, just saying with pro athletes of a less political correct era. Where known to have a good time.

asandhu23
09-13-2015, 12:40 PM
Yeah, when I met Darryl Dawkins, you could see he gained a lot of weight. Either way he was pretty active. Don't know about Moses.

torocan
09-13-2015, 12:47 PM
Another sad day in sports. Way too many athletes from my youth are passing away.

RIP Malone.

JasonJohnHorn
09-13-2015, 12:51 PM
That's sad that he passed so young. He played until he was 40. One of the first guys to get draft out of highschool, played two decades in the league. Only player to win back-2-back MVP awards on different teams, AND he holds the record for most consecutive games played without fouling out. Great post player and offensive rebounder.

I wish the Hawks had a coach who knew what he was doing when he was there. They had Bob Weiss, who started Jon Konkac over Moses Malone....wtf? With Doc, Moncrief, Nique and Kevin Willis, that team should have been pushing for the finals.

Wish we had more guys like him. He will be missed.

IndyRealist
09-13-2015, 12:54 PM
Another sad day in sports. Way too many athletes from my youth are passing away.

RIP Mailman.

Moses Malone, not Karl Malone.

torocan
09-13-2015, 01:00 PM
Dam, got the nicknames confused. Thanks for the correction. Still unfortunate. :(

mrblisterdundee
09-13-2015, 01:44 PM
Best player the Blazers ever drafted (and traded before he ever played a game; cheap idiots). RIP Moses.

BigBuckley
09-13-2015, 03:23 PM
**** man whats going on with these nba legends recently? RIP Moses.

JWO35
09-13-2015, 04:03 PM
Rest In Peace

ghettosean
09-13-2015, 10:12 PM
Unreal!!! RIP

Hawkeye15
09-13-2015, 10:23 PM
wow a true legend. first dr dunk now fofofo ? sixers legends leaving us too soon. wats with bigs dying young

being that tall is too hard on the heart usually. Blood has to pump a long way.....

why do you think asians live forever?

Sad day. Moses was awesome. Possibly the most underrated star ever (along with D-Rob).

Burkey3472
09-14-2015, 08:38 AM
Very sad news.....RIP.

Chronz
09-14-2015, 12:05 PM
Just read a stat, he had 27 offensive rebounds in the Finals vs the Lakers, KAJ corralled 30 TOTAL rebounds. Man he ate him up and spat him out that series.

G_S_W
09-14-2015, 12:24 PM
Just read a stat, he had 27 offensive rebounds in the Finals vs the Lakers, KAJ corralled 30 TOTAL rebounds. Man he ate him up and spat him out that series.

Kareem was 35 at the time, and Malone was at the peak of his career at 27.

Nonetheless, Kareem managed to average 23.5 ppg, 7.5 rpg, and 2.2 bpg vs. 25.1, 18 and 1.5.

As quick reference, Cap averaged 14.0 and 16.9 rpg at ages 27 and 28, while Moses averaged 15.3 and 13.4 at the same age/s. Cap's career average was 11.2 and he averaged double figures every season until he was 34.

One should also note that many of Moses's offensive rebounds were of his own misses, often right at the rim, which led some to speculate that Moses had become a habitual stat padder in that statistical category.

This is not to denigrate Malone's legacy, only to offer some balance and perspective in comparing Kareem and Malone.

Starting at 1:21, you see Malone throwing up several AIRBALLS directly at the rim, retrieving his own miss, and scoring on a layup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1xlhGg-lCo

These "rebounds" are actually uncalled travels:

http://www.nba.com/2013/news/10/24/ask-donnie-q-and-a/


Again, there is no question that Malone, with his resume, is a top 30 all time player. Having said that, a silly comment such as "he ate kareem and spat him out" only encourages us to dig deeper into Malone's legacy. And it becomes clear that there was a lot of controversy over his rebounding statistics.

Phantom Dreamer
09-14-2015, 02:23 PM
Cause of death was heart disease.

G_S_W
09-14-2015, 03:37 PM
being that tall is too hard on the heart usually. Blood has to pump a long way.....

why do you think asians live forever?



Damn, how long does it take for you to tie your shoes in the morning, bro. The safer bet is you don't know how to tie your shoes at all.

Most likely Moses became physically inactive and ate heart unhealthy foods post retirement and paid the price. Malone never looked especially lean even when he was playing in the nba.

Tony_Starks
09-14-2015, 04:03 PM
A true Big man. It's a damn shame his name isn't mentioned more in top 10 discussions, rebounding at that kind of elite level is unheard of even today. Sure did give the Lakers the business when it mattered. Barkley has said he really took him under his wing as a rook and taught him how to be great AND about being a man. Another rarity in our era.

Sad day.

MickeyMgl
09-14-2015, 04:31 PM
Moses Malone > Shaquille O'Neal

Chronz
09-14-2015, 04:34 PM
Kareem was 35 at the time, and Malone was at the peak of his career at 27.

Nonetheless, Kareem managed to average 23.5 ppg, 7.5 rpg, and 2.2 bpg vs. 25.1, 18 and 1.5.

As quick reference, Cap averaged 14.0 and 16.9 rpg at ages 27 and 28, while Moses averaged 15.3 and 13.4 at the same age/s. Cap's career average was 11.2 and he averaged double figures every season until he was 34.

One should also note that many of Moses's offensive rebounds were of his own misses, often right at the rim, which led some to speculate that Moses had become a habitual stat padder in that statistical category.

This is not to denigrate Malone's legacy, only to offer some balance and perspective in comparing Kareem and Malone.

Starting at 1:21, you see Malone throwing up several AIRBALLS directly at the rim, retrieving his own miss, and scoring on a layup:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1xlhGg-lCo

These "rebounds" are actually uncalled travels:

http://www.nba.com/2013/news/10/24/ask-donnie-q-and-a/


Again, there is no question that Malone, with his resume, is a top 30 all time player. Having said that, a silly comment such as "he ate kareem and spat him out" only encourages us to dig deeper into Malone's legacy. And it becomes clear that there was a lot of controversy over his rebounding statistics.

Top-30, sure but Id put him more in that Top-15 range.

Im not seeing what you are with regards to the vids and rule definitions. As for inflating his rebounds, thats prolly true but its not inflating his statistical value, on any efficiency scale, a missed shot is negated by an offensive rebound and vice versa. They still count the missed field goal once they count his rebound. Besides, if it were as easy as just grabbing your own misses, more people would do it. The truth is, Malone didn't do it to pad his rebounding numbers, at least not to the extent guys like Rodman did, chasing teammates rebounds and ignoring defensive assignments. Malone did his board work as means to get a better angle to score. He would throw shots up there knowing they had no shot of going in, true, but he would also know the area he cleared out to get the rebound would open up a better opportunity at the rim.

What I admired most about Moses was how he loved competition and how he helped groom many HOF'ers. Without him, Hakeem never reaches his full potential. Which if he never does, Moses may make a couple more All-NBA teams towards the end of his prime. He didn't care, he would rather play the best at their best. Its odd how he declined so quickly after his title run. Offensive rebounding is one of those stats that really declines as players age, the advantages in quickness, leaping and getting that 2nd jump declines but unlike Kareem, he remained among the best rebounding bigs in the game. I read that he just stopped putting in as much effort in the gym due to contract disputes, began showing to camp abit out of shape but he straightened that out. Its abit of a paradox but one of the games most tireless workhorses was at one point lazy.



As for KAJ vs Moses, I shouldn't have suggested it was clearly 1-sided, hyperbole for sure, but I will say that while I would take KAJ vs most of the league, if it was for 1 series/game, I would take Moses vs KAJ. Yeah KAJ puts up a fight, but the single biggest reason his teams lost vs his Rockets/Sixers was because of how he pummeled him on the boards. Yes, KAJ declined but it wasn't an isolated incident, he had been doing that to him throughout their careers.


Like lets look at a younger KAJ vs Moses.


In 1979 KAJ was still very much still in his prime and averaged 12.9 rebounds per game to Moses 17.6

In their H2H match-ups, KAJ averaged 11.3 Rebounds vs 23.0 for Moses. Both finished with 47 win teams with the Rockets winning 2 of 3.


In 1980, KAJ averaged 10.5 vs Moses whereas Moses averaged 16, but this is an irrelevant stretch due to a migraine preventing KAJ from playing in 1 game and him getting ejected in another.


1981- Kareem was coming off an MVP season, a championship post season and would have been FMVP had the league not pressured the press into voting for the guy who could actually hoist the award live and in person. This would be his final year averaging a double-double and would mark the end of his truly terrorizing the league, tho he remained an MVP caliber player throughout his decline.

Anyways, this year KAJ averaged 9.4REB vs Moses whereas Moses averaged 16.6. Then in the playoffs, despite fielding a sub.500 squad, the Rockets upset the defending champs. Tho in fairness, KAJ averaged a robust 16.7 Rebounds vs 17.7 Kareem, but he actually outrebounded him in 2 of the 3 games.

1982+83 : At this point he regularly pummels him, KAJ is older, slower and though hes upped his strength, he can no longer compete with Peak Moses .


The part I left out is that not only is Moses out rebounding him, but he sports the higher scoring average throughout this stretch as well. He suppressed Kareems rebounding while simultaneously upping his own sterling averages. There is no question who was Kareems kryptonite and it wasn't just cuz he was older, even at his best he struggled in the matchup despite having superior teams most of the time.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-14-2015, 06:06 PM
Moses was such a hard worker. He literally carried his Rockets team to a NBA finals (loss) on his back. People talk about Hakeem not having much help in his first finals but his teammates were way better than the ones Moses had in that finals.

Saddletramp
09-14-2015, 06:15 PM
That blows. RIP, big fella

G_S_W
09-14-2015, 07:23 PM
Top-30, sure but Id put him more in that Top-15 range.

Im not seeing what you are with regards to the vids and rule definitions. As for inflating his rebounds, thats prolly true but its not inflating his statistical value, on any efficiency scale, a missed shot is negated by an offensive rebound and vice versa. They still count the missed field goal once they count his rebound. Besides, if it were as easy as just grabbing your own misses, more people would do it. The truth is, Malone didn't do it to pad his rebounding numbers, at least not to the extent guys like Rodman did, chasing teammates rebounds and ignoring defensive assignments. Malone did his board work as means to get a better angle to score. He would throw shots up there knowing they had no shot of going in, true, but he would also know the area he cleared out to get the rebound would open up a better opportunity at the rim.

What I admired most about Moses was how he loved competition and how he helped groom many HOF'ers. Without him, Hakeem never reaches his full potential. Which if he never does, Moses may make a couple more All-NBA teams towards the end of his prime. He didn't care, he would rather play the best at their best. Its odd how he declined so quickly after his title run. Offensive rebounding is one of those stats that really declines as players age, the advantages in quickness, leaping and getting that 2nd jump declines but unlike Kareem, he remained among the best rebounding bigs in the game. I read that he just stopped putting in as much effort in the gym due to contract disputes, began showing to camp abit out of shape but he straightened that out. Its abit of a paradox but one of the games most tireless workhorses was at one point lazy.



As for KAJ vs Moses, I shouldn't have suggested it was clearly 1-sided, hyperbole for sure, but I will say that while I would take KAJ vs most of the league, if it was for 1 series/game, I would take Moses vs KAJ. Yeah KAJ puts up a fight, but the single biggest reason his teams lost vs his Rockets/Sixers was because of how he pummeled him on the boards. Yes, KAJ declined but it wasn't an isolated incident, he had been doing that to him throughout their careers.


Like lets look at a younger KAJ vs Moses.


In 1979 KAJ was still very much still in his prime and averaged 12.9 rebounds per game to Moses 17.6

In their H2H match-ups, KAJ averaged 11.3 Rebounds vs 23.0 for Moses. Both finished with 47 win teams with the Rockets winning 2 of 3.


In 1980, KAJ averaged 10.5 vs Moses whereas Moses averaged 16, but this is an irrelevant stretch due to a migraine preventing KAJ from playing in 1 game and him getting ejected in another.


1981- Kareem was coming off an MVP season, a championship post season and would have been FMVP had the league not pressured the press into voting for the guy who could actually hoist the award live and in person. This would be his final year averaging a double-double and would mark the end of his truly terrorizing the league, tho he remained an MVP caliber player throughout his decline.

Anyways, this year KAJ averaged 9.4REB vs Moses whereas Moses averaged 16.6. Then in the playoffs, despite fielding a sub.500 squad, the Rockets upset the defending champs. Tho in fairness, KAJ averaged a robust 16.7 Rebounds vs 17.7 Kareem, but he actually outrebounded him in 2 of the 3 games.

1982+83 : At this point he regularly pummels him, KAJ is older, slower and though hes upped his strength, he can no longer compete with Peak Moses .


The part I left out is that not only is Moses out rebounding him, but he sports the higher scoring average throughout this stretch as well. He suppressed Kareems rebounding while simultaneously upping his own sterling averages. There is no question who was Kareems kryptonite and it wasn't just cuz he was older, even at his best he struggled in the matchup despite having superior teams most of the time.

Your comparison begins in '79, and by that point it was quite obvious that Kareem was exiting his prime, and 78/79 was probably the last of his truly great seasons, at 31 years of age.

Moses was 8 years younger, and by '79 was playing his 5th pro season.

Comparing a 23 year old, 5 year vet entering his prime, to a 31 year old center exiting his prime, and starting the comparison from that point onwards, doesn't make a lot of sense.

If the two had played H2H at the same age, I'd say Kareem would clearly dominate. Kareem averaged between 27 and 34.8 ppg between 23 and 28 years of age, with B2B scoring titles, averaging at least 30.0 ppg in 4 of 6 seasons. Kareem also averaged between 14 and 17 rpg in that same period.

Who are you going to compare next? How about a 24 year old Kobe vs. a 39 year old Jordan?

Chronz: "Look how Kobe dominated Jordan H2H in '01-'03. Kobe ate him up and spat him out. Kobe GOAT!"

This whole "Kareem's Kryptonite" prattle is just that: pure nonsense. I don't mind Rockets homers being Rockets homers, but there's a point where it becomes so extreme and silly, you reach the point where your pseudo-arguments can be completely dismissed.

edit: I read your post again and your citation of Malone's higher rebounding average is really a joke. Malone's extremely high percentage of offensive rebounds (often approaching half of his total rebounds) is extremely fishy.

Did you actually watch Malone play? Malone was notorious for tossing gimme layups, clunking them off the rim and/or backboard, sometimes directly back to himself, then dumping the ball back in for a layup. This happened so often, it's not too far off to say that Malone was making a mockery of the game.

The claim that Malone was "placing the ball in a more advantageous position" when deliberately missing shots is a crock. Malone was almost always at point blank range. There's no way to "get in a more advantageous position" when you start directly at the rim, miss deliberately, then make the same shot, standing right at the rim.

Considering this rather embarrassing habit (deliberate misses), and how Malone benefitted (multiple rebounding titles), it's much more accurate to say he was trying to help himself (bigger contracts based on his stats), than to say he was trying to help his team.

Chronz
09-14-2015, 10:29 PM
Your comparison begins in '79, and by that point it was quite obvious that Kareem was exiting his prime, and 78/79 was probably the last of his truly great seasons, at 31 years of age.
Could be semantics but I dont consider an MVP winning player who still led the league in overall production by quite a few barometers to be out of his prime. I think you're alluding to his peak run to be over, and looking at his #'s you would be right, but Im telling you the ABA weakened the NBA at that point. Maybe not enough to make a HUGE difference in Kareem's production/impact but it played something of a factor.


Moses was 8 years younger, and by '79 was playing his 5th pro season.

Comparing a 23 year old, 5 year vet entering his prime, to a 31 year old center exiting his prime, and starting the comparison from that point onwards, doesn't make a lot of sense.

I dont see why when the 2 were exchanging MVP awards during this tenure. Kareem is lauded for his longevity, seems to me you're diminishing that by making these excuses that he shouldn't be compared. Look, I get that Kareem was not at the top of his game, but he was close enough to it that we can compare 2 greats. And its not like Kareem didn't have a tendency to struggle with brutes. An old (far more removed from his prime) Wilt Chamberlain and Nate Thurmond were able to stifle skinny Kareem. Thurmond actually locked him up and Wilt was so heroic in defeat that KAJ home town fans were applauding his efforts, the following year, Kareems own coach admitted how intimidated he appeared. I know a few Kareem fans that have argued Wilt and Thurmond had that kind of success because he was so young and underdeveloped physically.
In fact, Kareem took up yoga and core strengthening regimens to counteract the brutes, I'd argue he would do even worse if he was younger, at least vs peak Moses.


Just tell me, at which point would you have considered the comparison fair?



If the two had played H2H at the same age, I'd say Kareem would clearly dominate. Kareem averaged between 27 and 34.8 ppg between 23 and 28 years of age, with B2B scoring titles, averaging at least 30.0 ppg in 4 of 6 seasons. Kareem also averaged between 14 and 17 rpg in that same period.

Yeah but rebounds per game dont tell us as much as their rebounding% and IIRC, Moses had always posted better numbers.



Who are you going to compare next? How about a 24 year old Kobe vs. a 39 year old Jordan?

Chronz: "Look how Kobe dominated Jordan H2H in '01-'03. Kobe ate him up and spat him out. Kobe GOAT!"
Just tell me, is this based on more than just age and even then Im not trying to do the math but is that really a fair comparison based on just mileage? All I know is that MJ was NOWHERE near his prime levels whilst in Washington, whereas KAJ was still posting MVP caliber numbers AND winning actual MVP's in my sample set. Seems like you're trying too hard to prove your point .


This whole "Kareem's Kryptonite" prattle is just that: pure nonsense. I don't mind Rockets homers being Rockets homers, but there's a point where it becomes so extreme and silly, you reach the point where your pseudo-arguments can be completely dismissed.

Firstly Im a Clippers fan, secondly, Im not ranking Moses above Kareem and no offense, but you would have to be biased to not know his main weakness was battling against brutes. He was the best in the league but the guys with the wide base/ immense strength were the ones who gave him the most trouble. It wasn't just Moses, although he was the primary guy who exposed his lack of bulk.

I dont care what stage you are in, if a particular matchup causes you to CONSISTENTLY underperform to your usual standards, then theres prolly something to be said for that matchup . Younger Kareem could board better but he was also WEAKER 1v1 in the post. Moses WAS his kryptonite and you despite your dismissal of my points, you've reached the point where I stop respecting your opinion as well. From here on out, I wont be so diplomatic. You can disagree with me without stooping to complete dismissal. LOL, Rox homer ? You really dont know who you're talking to do you? Why make leaps when you have nothing to stand on? Lets just let our argument stand for themselves before pointing fingers at any sort of allegiance.

Chronz
09-14-2015, 10:46 PM
Moses was such a hard worker. He literally carried his Rockets team to a NBA finals (loss) on his back. People talk about Hakeem not having much help in his first finals but his teammates were way better than the ones Moses had in that finals.

Hakeem had help, he had a guy who could at least contest Kareems shots in Ralph Sampson, all the while he provided ELITE help defense. Kareem still dominated but he could never be expected to outplay the twin towers on his own. Then there was Magic, had the Rockets had John Lucas they couldve expoited his lack of defense alot better but without him they had someone who could at least run the point in a pinch while being able to defend Magic better than most teams. Rodney McCray is an underrated role player, definitely not a championship caliber starter but still a viable option against a contending LA team.

Its a close comparison but I wonder who people felt put up the bigger fight against the overwhelming Celtics. Moses with his rag tag group or Hakeem and his more talented club.

JasonJohnHorn
09-14-2015, 11:57 PM
Damn, how long does it take for you to tie your shoes in the morning, bro. The safer bet is you don't know how to tie your shoes at all.

Most likely Moses became physically inactive and ate heart unhealthy foods post retirement and paid the price. Malone never looked especially lean even when he was playing in the nba.

I'm not saying Hawkeye is right or wrong, but you'd have to be Moses's personal physician to make a call like you are making.

Was he lean? No. Did he look like a guy that was gorging himself with icecream cake and double-down sammiches? Not at all. We was still active, out golfing and such. And we are talking about a guy who played into his 40's.

We don't know what caused it, but what Hawkeye is right about is that tall people have a lot of unique health problems. I've read that being taller actually makes you less likely to have heart disease, but at the same time we've seen enough guy in the league that had heart issue: Reggie Lewis, Hank Gather, Eddie Curry.

Who knows.... and who care... this is a thread for remembering the guy, not telling somebody they can't tie their shoe laces because you don't agree with them.

Chronz
09-15-2015, 03:30 AM
I'm not saying Hawkeye is right or wrong, but you'd have to be Moses's personal physician to make a call like you are making.

Was he lean? No. Did he look like a guy that was gorging himself with icecream cake and double-down sammiches? Not at all. We was still active, out golfing and such. And we are talking about a guy who played into his 40's.

We don't know what caused it, but what Hawkeye is right about is that tall people have a lot of unique health problems. I've read that being taller actually makes you less likely to have heart disease, but at the same time we've seen enough guy in the league that had heart issue: Reggie Lewis, Hank Gather, Eddie Curry.

Who knows.... and who care... this is a thread for remembering the guy, not telling somebody they can't tie their shoe laces because you don't agree with them.

As someone with heart disease, I can tell you, **** happens. What do you make of the fact that one of his final activities being working out at a hotel gym during a recent Philly Legends event? That seems like something you do if you care about health. Still, some guys dont know how to work out based on their heart rates. I've been getting stress tested since grade school. Dont know what good it will do but I can tell you Im trying to stay fit.

G_S_W
09-15-2015, 02:58 PM
I'm not saying Hawkeye is right or wrong, but you'd have to be Moses's personal physician to make a call like you are making.

Was he lean? No. Did he look like a guy that was gorging himself with icecream cake and double-down sammiches? Not at all. We was still active, out golfing and such. And we are talking about a guy who played into his 40's.

We don't know what caused it, but what Hawkeye is right about is that tall people have a lot of unique health problems. I've read that being taller actually makes you less likely to have heart disease, but at the same time we've seen enough guy in the league that had heart issue: Reggie Lewis, Hank Gather, Eddie Curry.

Who knows.... and who care... this is a thread for remembering the guy, not telling somebody they can't tie their shoe laces because you don't agree with them.

From what I understand, the "unique health problems" you refer to are generally reserved for individuals with acromegaly or other growth hormone/pituitary disorders. These individuals do typically have shorter life expectancy. Very tall individuals who are otherwise normal however, tend to suffer from joint issues, especially in the lower extremities: knees, feet, hips, ankles.

Someone who is tall but has clear blood vessels and a normally functioning heart should have a normal life span.

Golfing is not necessarily a great form of exercise. It's certainly better than sitting all day, but simply standing for a few hours and perhaps riding in a cart from one tee to the next is not exactly a formula for outstanding heart health.

We really don't know what Malone's eating habits were, or what the other risk factors were.

edit: also, keep in mind that many athletes, while highly skilled and fit (in the sense of being able to perform at a high level athletically), are not necessarily healthy, and are very often risk for a shorter life span.

The reasons are quite obvious: concussions, extreme stress on the joints, extremely high level of calorie consumption, tumbles and falls (taking charges in the nba for example), and many other forms of trauma.

G_S_W
09-15-2015, 03:19 PM
While I certainly cannot devote enough time to match your post volume (36,000), there are certainly a few points that I can address in a concise way:

1. You continually harp on Malone's rebounding advantage from ages 23 to 28. As I stated, this is a pointless exercise. A 31-36 year old Kareem was no longer the elite rebounder he was when he was 23 - 28, when he averaged 14-17 rpg.

In the time period you specify, Cap was down to 7-11 rpg. Respectable, but very far from his peak.

Kareem was elite, still dominant from 31 to 36, but obviously could not post the same exceptional rebounding numbers he did in his early and mid twenties.

On top of that, Kareem was a rebounder, not a stat padder. If you actually watched Malone play, he routinely tossed up 2-3 gimme's a game, missed them on purpose, just to retrieve his own misses and pad his stats. Hey, why not get credit for a few extra rebounds if you know you're going to score on a layup anyway?

Again, comparing rebounding numbers between a center who was early to mid/late 30's to a center entering his prime physically and statistically is really a joke.

2. Your statistical "evidence" is extremely weak. All that you demonstrate is that Kareem at worst, scores as many points against Malone as he did against the rest of the league. This is not evidence that Malone "ate him alive and spat him out." The only evidence you have is Malone's rebounding advantage, which totally evaporates when you compare the two at the same ages.

I do consider Malone a top 20 player. Having actually watched many of his games, and following his career closely, he was hardly an exemplar of how to play the game. Airball misses at the rim, bricking layups at point blank range, benefitting statistically from deliberate misses, having traveling calls overlooked (airball retrievals) were just an embarrassment to watch.

He really didn't need to resort to such silliness and it absolutely tarnishes his legacy.

These finer points are easy to overlook if you simply look at a stat sheet and nothing else. But for those with even a passing knowledge of Malone's actual play, he leaves a very mixed legacy.


Could be semantics but I dont consider an MVP winning player who still led the league in overall production by quite a few barometers to be out of his prime. I think you're alluding to his peak run to be over, and looking at his #'s you would be right, but Im telling you the ABA weakened the NBA at that point. Maybe not enough to make a HUGE difference in Kareem's production/impact but it played something of a factor.


I dont see why when the 2 were exchanging MVP awards during this tenure. Kareem is lauded for his longevity, seems to me you're diminishing that by making these excuses that he shouldn't be compared. Look, I get that Kareem was not at the top of his game, but he was close enough to it that we can compare 2 greats. And its not like Kareem didn't have a tendency to struggle with brutes. An old (far more removed from his prime) Wilt Chamberlain and Nate Thurmond were able to stifle skinny Kareem. Thurmond actually locked him up and Wilt was so heroic in defeat that KAJ home town fans were applauding his efforts, the following year, Kareems own coach admitted how intimidated he appeared. I know a few Kareem fans that have argued Wilt and Thurmond had that kind of success because he was so young and underdeveloped physically.
In fact, Kareem took up yoga and core strengthening regimens to counteract the brutes, I'd argue he would do even worse if he was younger, at least vs peak Moses.


Just tell me, at which point would you have considered the comparison fair?



Yeah but rebounds per game dont tell us as much as their rebounding% and IIRC, Moses had always posted better numbers.



Just tell me, is this based on more than just age and even then Im not trying to do the math but is that really a fair comparison based on just mileage? All I know is that MJ was NOWHERE near his prime levels whilst in Washington, whereas KAJ was still posting MVP caliber numbers AND winning actual MVP's in my sample set. Seems like you're trying too hard to prove your point .


Firstly Im a Clippers fan, secondly, Im not ranking Moses above Kareem and no offense, but you would have to be biased to not know his main weakness was battling against brutes. He was the best in the league but the guys with the wide base/ immense strength were the ones who gave him the most trouble. It wasn't just Moses, although he was the primary guy who exposed his lack of bulk.

I dont care what stage you are in, if a particular matchup causes you to CONSISTENTLY underperform to your usual standards, then theres prolly something to be said for that matchup . Younger Kareem could board better but he was also WEAKER 1v1 in the post. Moses WAS his kryptonite and you despite your dismissal of my points, you've reached the point where I stop respecting your opinion as well. From here on out, I wont be so diplomatic. You can disagree with me without stooping to complete dismissal. LOL, Rox homer ? You really dont know who you're talking to do you? Why make leaps when you have nothing to stand on? Lets just let our argument stand for themselves before pointing fingers at any sort of allegiance.

G_S_W
09-15-2015, 03:22 PM
As someone with heart disease, I can tell you, **** happens. What do you make of the fact that one of his final activities being working out at a hotel gym during a recent Philly Legends event? That seems like something you do if you care about health. Still, some guys dont know how to work out based on their heart rates. I've been getting stress tested since grade school. Dont know what good it will do but I can tell you Im trying to stay fit.

If you have cardiovascular disease, you have to make certain accommodations. Engaging in aerobic exercise (if that's what he was doing) and elevating his heart rate to a high level (presumably) can actually be a very bad idea and very dangerous to one's health in such cases.

We are all speculating at this point, and we don't know how much more information will come out, but it's a good guess that his eating habits were not that great. Assuming he was reasonably active after his career was over, that's the most likely culprit. Malone actually gained quite a bit of weight even during his nba career, which again, points to his eating habits as a primary culprit.

NBA players spend many months on the road each year, and are typically eating at fast food restaurants, hotel restaurants, etc. Anyone who has eaten out even occasionally knows that the food served at these places is not necessarily the healthiest.

I recall GSP (UFC) saying he was eating mcdonald's and junk food all the time, and only hired a professional dietitian chef much later in his career.

JasonJohnHorn
09-16-2015, 07:12 PM
As someone with heart disease, I can tell you, **** happens. What do you make of the fact that one of his final activities being working out at a hotel gym during a recent Philly Legends event? That seems like something you do if you care about health. Still, some guys dont know how to work out based on their heart rates. I've been getting stress tested since grade school. Dont know what good it will do but I can tell you Im trying to stay fit.

Hope you stay healthy! I always enjoy your posts, well... most of them ;-)

ghettosean
09-16-2015, 08:27 PM
As someone with heart disease, I can tell you, **** happens. What do you make of the fact that one of his final activities being working out at a hotel gym during a recent Philly Legends event? That seems like something you do if you care about health. Still, some guys dont know how to work out based on their heart rates. I've been getting stress tested since grade school. Dont know what good it will do but I can tell you Im trying to stay fit.

Hope you stay healthy! I always enjoy your posts, well... most of them ;-)

I don't but I still wish you good health :D

JPPT1974
09-17-2015, 02:19 AM
RIP Moses Malone. Heard he was a classy guy.