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Shammyguy3
09-08-2015, 10:40 PM
We do this normally every year at the start of the summer. Since nobody has taken the liberty to continue it, I'll take the reigns and get us started. We'll skip #1, because it's the most obvious consensus there is in sports. We'll start at who everyone thinks is the 2nd best player of all time.

If you think someone should be added to the poll PLEASE don't ***** about it. Just mention in the thread that he should be added to the next poll and if the player's all-time standing is relatively close to the number we're at there shouldn't be a problem adding him to the poll.


So, who does everyone have?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. Tim Duncan
6. Hakeem Olajuwon
7. ?

Clippersfan86
09-09-2015, 12:14 AM
Still think it's ******** that Hakeem went 6. But I voted Lebron here again.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-09-2015, 12:31 AM
I wonder what Hakeem did the past few years to move himself above Magic/Bird when they were always ranked ahead of him.

Shammyguy3
09-09-2015, 12:35 AM
i think anchoring a defense has become increasingly valued in the eyes of fans after seeing how the Spurs and Warriors have performed the last two years (Duncan, Bogut, the Greens, Leonard, etc)

FlashBolt
09-09-2015, 12:38 AM
I wonder what Hakeem did the past few years to move himself above Magic/Bird when they were always ranked ahead of him.

Different people, different opinions, a change in POV, some trolls were banned. Lots to do.

Kobe for me. Longevity is a killer and he's done more than LeBronny right now.

naps
09-09-2015, 01:15 AM
I wonder what Hakeem did the past few years to move himself above Magic/Bird when they were always ranked ahead of him.

He became overrated, almost like a myth. I can't believe I am saying this because I love me some Dream. He is no way better than someone like LeBron James no matter how wanna go. Peak, accolades, two way player whatever you wanna go by. Anyways, going with LeBron again.

THE MTL
09-09-2015, 01:36 AM
This spot should be Magic Johnson no questions. End thread.

Sadds The Gr8
09-09-2015, 02:05 AM
I wonder what Hakeem did the past few years to move himself above Magic/Bird when they were always ranked ahead of him.


He became overrated, almost like a myth. I can't believe I am saying this because I love me some Dream. He is no way better than someone like LeBron James no matter how wanna go. Peak, accolades, two way player whatever you wanna go by. Anyways, going with LeBron again.

I love Hakeem but I agree with these. He's become overrated if he's 6...

DanG
09-09-2015, 08:20 AM
4 years ago Magic was voted #4 best all-time with 81 votes. Hakeem had 0.

ManRam
09-09-2015, 09:35 AM
Magic was a minus on defense. LeBron wasn't. Offensively their games are close enough. I do think LeBron's peak seasons were a bit more impressive. LeBron has put up significantly better playoff numbers too. The rings argument is fair, however. They're certainly very close.

kdspurman
09-09-2015, 09:39 AM
He became overrated, almost like a myth. I can't believe I am saying this because I love me some Dream. He is no way better than someone like LeBron James no matter how wanna go. Peak, accolades, two way player whatever you wanna go by. Anyways, going with LeBron again.

I don't know if Lebron was ever the dominant force Hakeem was defensively, and it's tough to compare cause they're different positions. But Lebron IMO seemed to really take a serious interest and focus on defense during his stint in Miami.

He seemed pretty average at best other than that to me.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-09-2015, 09:45 AM
Larry Bird

ManRam
09-09-2015, 09:48 AM
Yeah, I was a bit surprised Hakeem got voted at 6. I'm kinda with naps on this. He's much closer to 10 than 5 IMO. I don't get how a one-time MVP beats out so many of these 3+ time winners. I know it's just one silly award, but the bigger point is that he definitely wasn't frequently-enough viewed as the league's best player to justify him being the 6th best player ever. Hell, the one year he did win the MVP he probably was merely the 3rd best big man behind Shaq and The Admiral.

LeBron's been the consensus best player in the league for the better part of 5 years. Bird and Magic had nice stretches too. Was Hakeem ever that? I don't know. It just feels weird voting him so high.

But hey, Bill Russell is falling so there's a plus to all that.

Tony_Starks
09-09-2015, 10:58 AM
Hakeem the Dream himself would laugh himself silly if you told him he was over Magic and Bird. I'm not even sure how this monstrosity of a list went this way...but it is indeed very entertaining!

Clippersfan86
09-09-2015, 12:12 PM
Lebron
Magic
Bird

Should be 6, 7 and 8. Period. Differing orders fine. Kobe at 9, then MAYBE Hakeem at 10. As Chronz and others said when Hakeem's offense was great his defense wasn't great and vice versa. Not to mention his peak due to that just doesn't match up. Bird had a short prime and inefficiency in playoffs holding him below Lebron and Magic. Bird is one of my top 3 favorite all time players too along with Gary Payton and Ben Wallace.

Chronz
09-09-2015, 02:00 PM
Going Kobe cuz I have him as the greatest Laker ever and Magic comes next. After that its Bron then Bird. Dream should be here too

mngopher35
09-09-2015, 02:50 PM
This one will come down to Lebron/Magic for me. Defensively Lebron was obviously better and that might be the biggest difference in their games. As good as Lebron is at passing Magic is one of the rare players who was on another level though, arguably GOAT in that area. Longevity is no longer an issue between the two.

I am leaning slightly towards Lebron here but could see it going either way. Lebron is better statistically, defensively and hasn't had the same support over his career (help explain difference in team accolades, Lebron has more individual). I am actually a bit surprised Magic didn't go last round though, he has fallen for a lot of people in recent years it seems.

Tony_Starks
09-09-2015, 03:23 PM
Going Kobe cuz I have him as the greatest Laker ever and Magic comes next. After that its Bron then Bird. Dream should be here too


As much as I love Kobe I go back and forth on who's greater, him or Magic. All around game of course Kobe is on another level but I put a HUGE emphasis on Magics intangibles,basketball IQ, and leadership.

If forced to follow this list I would probably go Magic, Kobe, Bird, Lebron.

kdspurman
09-09-2015, 03:45 PM
Going w/Magic

LakersIn5
09-09-2015, 04:19 PM
Lololololololol

Not really hating but i dont see the point of having this rankings every year and i dont understand how the retired players rankings change when in fact they havent done anything for years now to move them up or down the rankings, maybe moving up active players for retired ones have sense but something like hakeem jumping over magic in the rankings when magic was 4th before. What exactly happened to warrant that change? I guess hakeem scoring 2 points in the nba africa game catapults him over magic.

Pierzynski4Prez
09-09-2015, 04:40 PM
Had Magic at 6.

Avenged
09-09-2015, 04:46 PM
Did Hakeem return to the league and did something remarkable? Where the hell is Magic :O wow. PSD is the only place I've ever seen rankings like this.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-09-2015, 04:50 PM
We all went wrong when we voted Shaq 4th.

LakersIn5
09-09-2015, 05:15 PM
Did Hakeem return to the league and did something remarkable? Where the hell is Magic :O wow. PSD is the only place I've ever seen rankings like this.
Hakeem scored over vucevic in nba africa game which led to him becoming no.6

Tony_Starks
09-09-2015, 06:59 PM
Did Hakeem return to the league and did something remarkable? Where the hell is Magic :O wow. PSD is the only place I've ever seen rankings like this.
Hakeem scored over vucevic in nba africa game which led to him becoming no.6


I think Magic played in a celebrity game this summer and had horrible PPP, ORTG, DRTG, TS, and YMCMB......he'll be lucky to be top 10.

FlashBolt
09-09-2015, 07:59 PM
Lololololololol

Not really hating but i dont see the point of having this rankings every year and i dont understand how the retired players rankings change when in fact they havent done anything for years now to move them up or down the rankings, maybe moving up active players for retired ones have sense but something like hakeem jumping over magic in the rankings when magic was 4th before. What exactly happened to warrant that change? I guess hakeem scoring 2 points in the nba africa game catapults him over magic.


It's called a change in opinion, a change in people voting (some are banned and some are new), a change in appreciation (some people are starting to see that some were just overrated).


Did Hakeem return to the league and did something remarkable? Where the hell is Magic :O wow. PSD is the only place I've ever seen rankings like this.

It's called a change in opinion, a change in people voting (some are banned and some are new), a change in appreciation (some people are starting to see that some were just overrated).

naps
09-09-2015, 09:32 PM
LeBron's peak as a 2 way player is greater than anyone on the list.

He also is the one to do the most with the least amount of help among the remaining bunch.

No one not named Russell made it to the 5 straight finals as the absolute leader of the team, and he did it playing for 2 franchises in that span.

None has been the absolute best player in the league for such a long period of stretch (8 years or so).

And he is better than anyone when it comes to individual accolades except may be for Russell but then again no one could compete with Russell because he probably would have had like 10 FMVPs if it was given out at that time)

ManRam
09-09-2015, 10:34 PM
lebron will be a guy whose stock only increases the further he's removed from the game. the more you're emotionally removed from things the better it will be for him. no way a now 5 year-old looks at the resumes of lebron, bird, and kobe and doesn't leave thinking lebron was the better...especially with the continuing shift/evolution in how we valuate players.

now, is removing those emotions always good thing? not always. we tend to forget things like "clutch" play, big game theatrics and a lot of the other minutiae the further we're removed, but yeah. i think time will be kind on him...almost regardless of what he does from here on out.

obviously i'm just speculating, but yeah. numbers are forever.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-10-2015, 12:00 PM
I think Magic played in a celebrity game this summer and had horrible PPP, ORTG, DRTG, TS, and YMCMB......he'll be lucky to be top 10.

My suspicion is many of the young voters did not watch those players during their actual careers so they did not feel the impact of guys like Bird/Magic/Hakeem in full context. They are often forced to rely on stats so in another 20 years there will probably be another generation of young people claiming things like Chris Paul was a top 5 NBA player of all time. There also is a bit of a popularity contest aspect to the voting at times.

ManRam
09-10-2015, 12:03 PM
My suspicion is many of the young voters did not watch those players during their actual careers so they did not feel the impact of guys like Bird/Magic/Hakeem in full context. They are often forced to rely on stats so in another 20 years there will probably be another generation of young people claiming things like Chris Paul was a top 5 NBA player of all time. There also is a bit of a popularity contest aspect to the voting at times.

Let's pump the brakes on the hyperbole there!!

SLY WILLIAMS
09-10-2015, 12:19 PM
Its not hyperbole when people not old enough to watch players judge them solely by stats. Hakeem often was not even thought of as the 6th best player in the league during the era when he played but PSD has him as the 6th best of all time.

There are reasons Bird was basically 1 or 2 (or 3) in the MVP voting his first 9 years in the league. People did not think of Hakeem at that level (except for 1-2 years) during the time when people actually watched them play.

LakersIn5
09-10-2015, 12:46 PM
I voted kobe because he is no.7 on my list

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Bird
Kobe
Duncan
Hakeem
Lebron

tredigs
09-10-2015, 01:04 PM
I voted kobe because he is no.7 on my list

Jordan
Wilt
Kareem
Magic
Shaq
Bird
Kobe
Duncan
Hakeem
Lebron

So by this logic we can assume you will not be voting Magic or Bird at any point correct?

mngopher35
09-10-2015, 01:26 PM
I'll be going Magic/Bron here depending on if either make it close to Kobe (since I have him a tier below). Both of them are just superior offensive players and peaked at a higher level than Kobe reached IMO. I think he should go in a couple picks but it is a bit early for him here.

LakersIn5
09-10-2015, 01:30 PM
So by this logic we can assume you will not be voting Magic or Bird at any point correct?

Yup. The rankings are screwed already anyways so im just going with the flow

Tony_Starks
09-10-2015, 01:30 PM
Its not hyperbole when people not old enough to watch players judge them solely by stats. Hakeem often was not even thought of as the 6th best player in the league during the era when he played but PSD has him as the 6th best of all time.

There are reasons Bird was basically 1 or 2 (or 3) in the MVP voting his first 9 years in the league. People did not think of Hakeem at that level (except for 1-2 years) during the time when people actually watched them play.


You are exactly right. The further we get removed from the fans that actually remember them playing, the worse voting like these will get. You can't determine a guys greatness off stats and youtube vids or classic games on nbaTV. People love to come up with all this revisionist history but the facts are when Bird and Magic were in their prime it was widely regarded as them>>>>>> rest of the league. To use the classic PSD cliche "it wasn't even close." They were on another tier than the Hakeems of the world, not just their teams, them individually.

ManRam
09-10-2015, 01:30 PM
Its not hyperbole when people not old enough to watch players judge them solely by stats. Hakeem often was not even thought of as the 6th best player in the league during the era when he played but PSD has him as the 6th best of all time.

There are reasons Bird was basically 1 or 2 (or 3) in the MVP voting his first 9 years in the league. People did not think of Hakeem at that level (except for 1-2 years) during the time when people actually watched them play.

Advanced stats love him, and rightfully so. But as long as there's a zero he's never even approaching anyone's top-5. You know that.


I agree on Hakeem. It's kinda silly he went so high. I missed that poll, but I'll guess that the arguments weren't laced in stats. It's probably those two Finals-MVPs if anything, 2 Finals MVP as the clear and undisputed best player...something rareish. I'll have to go back and look.

But it wasn't a lazy glance at stats.

He's only 16th all time in PER. He's 43rd in WS/48. 20th in total WS. 13th in VoRP. 19th in BPM.

These stats you're clearly championing against aren't the reason here. They don't paint him as a top-6 player.


And it's not hard to find out who was the best player in the NBA during a given season. Usually it stands out like a sore thumb. That was the crux of my anti-Hakeem argument: he wasn't really ever the clear best player in the NBA. So if anything it's just laziness, not a quick glance at the stats. Because a quick glance at the stats shows you Shaq and David were clearly better during his MVP seasons.

mngopher35
09-10-2015, 01:36 PM
Advanced stats love him, and rightfully so. But as long as there's a zero he's never even approaching anyone's top-5. You know that.


I agree on Hakeem. It's kinda silly he went so high. I missed that poll, but I'll guess that the arguments weren't laced in stats. It's probably those two Finals-MVPs if anything, 2 Finals MVP as the clear and undisputed best player...something rareish. I'll have to go back and look.

But it wasn't a lazy glance at stats.

He's only 16th all time in PER. He's 43rd in WS/48. 20th in total WS. 13th in VoRP. 19th in BPM.

These stats you're clearly championing against aren't the reason here. They don't paint him as a top-6 player.


And it's not hard to find out who was the best player in the NBA during a given season. Usually it stands out like a sore thumb. That was the crux of my anti-Hakeem argument: he wasn't really ever the clear best player in the NBA. So if anything it's just laziness, not a quick glance at the stats. Because a quick glance at the stats shows you Shaq and David were clearly better during his MVP seasons.

Based on stats it would have been Magic/Lebron. I posted a few stats for like 5 different players and Lebron came out the best with Magic after. Hakeem was in the middle statistically compared to others.

ManRam
09-10-2015, 01:38 PM
You are exactly right. The further we get removed from the fans that actually remember them playing, the worse voting like these will get. You can't determine a guys greatness off stats and youtube vids or classic games on nbaTV. People love to come up with all this revisionist history but the facts are when Bird and Magic were in their prime it was widely regarded as them>>>>>> rest of the league. To use the classic PSD cliche "it wasn't even close." They were on another tier than the Hakeems of the world, not just their teams, them individually.

I do agree that the further removed we are the more emotion is removed out of the equation. But I think that's a good and bad thing. For example, right now we're all so fixated on Finals losses and LeBron. But that sentiment will be forgotten over time...and to an extent that's justice. We treat a Finals loss as something worse than a missed playoffs, a 1st round loss, a 2nd round loss or an conference finals loss.

The things forgotten over time play on both sides of the spectrum. I do think time will be kind to LeBron, as I said earlier. Kobe and Bird won't be ranked ahead of him 15 years from now...I assure you that. His numbers are absurd, he has the MVPs, he has multiple Finals MVPs and he will be remembered as a clear #1 player in the league for a 5+ year long period. Those things will always keep him up there, and the nitpicking (fair or not...fair in 2011, unfair in 2015, for example) will be forgotten.


BUT...

I just don't think it's a lazy perusal of the stats that had Hakeem going 6th. The stats don't think Hakeem is a top-6 player...at all. I don't know what it is, but it isn't this laziness you're scared of. This fear of laziness isn't why Hakeem got voted there...it can't be.


Revisionism is real, for sure. But we also do have a better understanding of stats now, and as every year progresses, that does make some of these revisionist changes justified IMO. Bill Russell's stock has rightfully dropped. A guy like David Robinson's I'd imagine will rise. And so on. Just because we better understand what it means to be a productive and impacting player.

mngopher35
09-10-2015, 02:08 PM
I mean how can we blame statistics for this voting when Hakeem just went and Kobe is about to go?

Kobe has never lead the league in RS or playoff PER, WS/48, BPM or Vorp. He has lead in WS once in the 2001 playoffs and that's it. His efficiency is also down compared to the other guys. He is clearly behind the top guys left when it comes to statistics, that definitely is not a criteria being used here to vote for everyone.

Tony_Starks
09-10-2015, 02:37 PM
You are exactly right. The further we get removed from the fans that actually remember them playing, the worse voting like these will get. You can't determine a guys greatness off stats and youtube vids or classic games on nbaTV. People love to come up with all this revisionist history but the facts are when Bird and Magic were in their prime it was widely regarded as them>>>>>> rest of the league. To use the classic PSD cliche "it wasn't even close." They were on another tier than the Hakeems of the world, not just their teams, them individually.

I do agree that the further removed we are the more emotion is removed out of the equation. But I think that's a good and bad thing. For example, right now we're all so fixated on Finals losses and LeBron. But that sentiment will be forgotten over time...and to an extent that's justice. We treat a Finals loss as something worse than a missed playoffs, a 1st round loss, a 2nd round loss or an conference finals loss.

The things forgotten over time play on both sides of the spectrum. I do think time will be kind to LeBron, as I said earlier. Kobe and Bird won't be ranked ahead of him 15 years from now...I assure you that. His numbers are absurd, he has the MVPs, he has multiple Finals MVPs and he will be remembered as a clear #1 player in the league for a 5+ year long period. Those things will always keep him up there, and the nitpicking (fair or not...fair in 2011, unfair in 2015, for example) will be forgotten.


BUT...

I just don't think it's a lazy perusal of the stats that had Hakeem going 6th. The stats don't think Hakeem is a top-6 player...at all. I don't know what it is, but it isn't this laziness you're scared of. This fear of laziness isn't why Hakeem got voted there...it can't be.


Revisionism is real, for sure. But we also do have a better understanding of stats now, and as every year progresses, that does make some of these revisionist changes justified IMO. Bill Russell's stock has rightfully dropped. A guy like David Robinson's I'd imagine will rise. And so on. Just because we better understand what it means to be a productive and impacting player.

I see what you're saying but I'm not so sure about your premise of time changing Lebrons perception, for example. I think for the people that hold superstars finals records as something very serious that 2 for 6 is always going to be 2for 6. Time isn't changing that. For those that factor the team hopping/ joining forces in and hold it against him I don't think time will change that either. He's not passing Kobe or Bird for those fans unless he gets more rings, period.

Just like for those that put more emphasis on efficient stats it won't even matter how many rings he ends up with, they either have him over Kobe and Bird already or are right on the brink of it.

Chronz
09-10-2015, 02:47 PM
One argument I dont much understand is why it matters so much that a player be remembered as the clear cut best in the league. What if you play in the same time period as the GOAT? Hakeem shouldn't be punished for not being the best for much of a stretch, though he totally was for 3 years there at the least.

One thing I do know is that its not revisionist to question Bird's stature during the start of his career. Combined with the short peak and greater playoff let downs than anyone in this tier, I would have to put him with Russ following Magic and Bron.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2015, 02:49 PM
Lebron and Magic definitely rank ahead of Kobe and Hakeem and Bird has a case too. This voting is getting weird if people are picking Kobe ahead of Lebron due to "Ringz". If Lebron had prime Shaq on his team he would of raised less drama than Kobe and won 5 straight titles probably. Swap prime Shaq for Wade with Lebron and they break many records. 71+ wins, 5 straight titles and more. Would be the most unstoppable team ever.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2015, 02:52 PM
Lebron went to 4 straight finals with Wade breaking down the last two years. People forget that. Kobe is great and top 10 but more rings or not I don't see how he ranks higher than Lebron individually who's had a surprisingly long prime (still going strong) that stacks up well to Jordan and Wilt.

Chronz
09-10-2015, 02:57 PM
Lebron and Magic definitely rank ahead of Kobe and Hakeem and Bird has a case too. This voting is getting weird if people are picking Kobe ahead of Lebron due to "Ringz". If Lebron had prime Shaq on his team he would of raised less drama than Kobe and won 5 straight titles probably. Swap prime Shaq for Wade with Lebron and they break many records. 71+ wins, 5 straight titles and more. Would be the most unstoppable team ever.
Im not voting Kobe cuz of rings, though winning certainly helps. Im going because I think Kobe is abit better at making those around him better and that the individual gap between the 2 shrinks abit come playoffs against the best competition. At some point Kobes insane longevity wont outweigh Brons demonstrative regular season loads/accolades but I'm not there yet.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2015, 02:57 PM
Basically in only 3 clear cut seasons has Lebron had great teams top to bottom in 11 seasons. You put anyone else in his shoes, they don't even get to the finals. We all remember the 6 for 6 Jordan years but not the first 5 seasons where he was never past the 1st round? Or the 7 years before he even got to a finals and won it?

Lebron has consistently done more with bad teams than probably anyone in history and that is more indicative of dominance than winning rings with top 5 all time players on your squad, or stacked teams in general.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2015, 03:00 PM
Im not voting Kobe cuz of rings, though winning certainly helps. Im going because I think Kobe is abit better at making those around him better and that the individual gap between the 2 shrinks abit come playoffs against the best competition. At some point Kobes insane longevity wont outweigh Brons demonstrative regular season loads/accolades but I'm not there yet.

I didn't mean you specifically, but I understand. Your feel Kobe is better at making teammates around him better than Lebron?? I think it's the opposite. Lebron has a much better track record of elevating and involving teammates than Kobe IMO. In fact that's always been the difference pointed out between them. Kobe is the killer who's going to try to win it himself, Lebron is more Magic where he wants to get everyone else going first.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-10-2015, 03:03 PM
Basically in only 3 clear cut seasons has Lebron had great teams top to bottom in 11 seasons. You put anyone else in his shoes, they don't even get to the finals. We all remember the 6 for 6 Jordan years but not the first 5 seasons where he was never past the 1st round? Or the 7 years before he even got to a finals and won it?


That is not accurate.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2015, 03:04 PM
In order to see this difference look no further than Kobe's Lakers squad after Shaq left. Dude was ball hogging like a mother ****er. Making enemies with teammates left and right and barely made the playoffs one year, missed it entirely a year.

That was when he averaged like 35 ppg and set the NBA 40 ppg streak. Also where all the hilarious videos come from of him shooting over 3 defenders while teammates hang their heads, wide open.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2015, 03:08 PM
That is not accurate.

My bad, faulty memory. It was 3 years, not 5. 5th Year until conference finals may have been what I confused it with. Nonetheless, he didn't do much early on pre Pippen (I don't blame him). Point was that some players like Jordan are viewed as perfect by most, without realizing they had their moments too. I believe winning titles has been proven time and time again to be a team accomplishment. The more I get into basketball, the less titles weigh for me individually.

mngopher35
09-10-2015, 03:09 PM
Im not voting Kobe cuz of rings, though winning certainly helps. Im going because I think Kobe is abit better at making those around him better and that the individual gap between the 2 shrinks abit come playoffs against the best competition. At some point Kobes insane longevity wont outweigh Brons demonstrative regular season loads/accolades but I'm not there yet.

Care to expand on your reasoning at all? I just don't see how it is time for Kobe with Magic/Lebron on the board. The same way I did for Bird I will point out that while Kobe has many seasons in the league the first 3ish he wasn't at an elite level and the last 3 he couldn't finish the season. Those 6 years make up a lot of the difference in longevity but don't really add tons of value to his resume. Outside of those years Magic/Lebron were clearly the better players at their peak/prime and had pretty long primes as well. I think it is weird to say Kobe makes players around him better than Magic/Lebron did as well.

Just curious as to some of the reasoning you have, you always seem to have support and I'm wondering if I am overlooking something here.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-10-2015, 03:15 PM
My bad, faulty memory. It was 3 years, not 5. 5th Year until conference finals may have been what I confused it with. Nonetheless, he didn't do much early on pre Pippen (I don't blame him). Point was that some players like Jordan are viewed as perfect by most, without realizing they had their moments too. I believe winning titles has been proven time and time again to be a team accomplishment. The more I get into basketball, the less titles weigh for me individually.

The Pippen factor for Jordan winning in the playoffs in his 4th season gets way overrated on PSD in my opinion. Jordan went to a mess of a team that had a lot of players on drugs. Somehow they made the playoffs in his rookie year because of him. I do not remember who they lost to in the first round. The next year he also dragged them to the playoffs but they ran in to one of the greatest teams of all time in the 1986 Larry Bird Celtics. I think they played Bird and the Celtics in 87 as well. The Bulls and Jordan then won in the first round in his 4th year. By that time with a better coach and a lot of new players the team was starting to at least be decent around Jordan but there were no other stars at that point. Pippen was no absolutely no big deal at that point.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2015, 03:23 PM
The Pippen factor for Jordan winning in the playoffs in his 4th season gets way overrated on PSD in my opinion. Jordan went to a mess of a team that had a lot of players on drugs. Somehow they made the playoffs in his rookie year because of him. I do not remember who they lost to in the first round. The next year he also dragged them to the playoffs but they ran in to one of the greatest teams of all time in the 1986 Larry Bird Celtics. I think they played Bird and the Celtics in 87 as well. The Bulls and Jordan then won in the first round in his 4th year. By that time with a better coach and a lot of new players the team was starting to at least be decent around Jordan but there were no other stars at that point. Pippen was no absolutely no big deal at that point.

Like I said, I don't blame Jordan one bit. I'm just pointing out that Lebron got further when he had less help than Jordan did. Sure Jordan had to contend with Bird's Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons but Lebron caught the Sheed/Billups/Prince/Rip Pistons when they were still a top 10 team on both ends of the floor and won 53 or 54 games. That series was the crazy game where Lebron scored something like 28 of the 31 4th quarter points and willed the Cavs on if I'm remembering correctly.

This year on paper the Cavs were loaded but due to being decimated by injuries, Lebron was again tasked with carrying a team that isn't even a clear cut playoff team without him, even in the east to game 6 of the finals against maybe the 4th best team ever statistically.

Chronz
09-10-2015, 03:41 PM
I didn't mean you specifically, but I understand. Your feel Kobe is better at making teammates around him better than Lebron?? I think it's the opposite. Lebron has a much better track record of elevating and involving teammates than Kobe IMO. In fact that's always been the difference pointed out between them. Kobe is the killer who's going to try to win it himself, Lebron is more Magic where he wants to get everyone else going first.

In order to see this difference look no further than Kobe's Lakers squad after Shaq left. Dude was ball hogging like a mother ****er. Making enemies with teammates left and right and barely made the playoffs one year, missed it entirely a year.

That was when he averaged like 35 ppg and set the NBA 40 ppg streak. Also where all the hilarious videos come from of him shooting over 3 defenders while teammates hang their heads, wide open.

I'd love to see this track record. Im sure Bron is more affable and possibly likeable but Kobe has inspired even Bron with his training regimen and on the court, I feel Kobe's game brings out abit more in most players but its entirely subjective and not that much of a difference. I just think all these small differences make up enough of the gap in their peak performances for Kobe's longevity to still stand as an x-factor for the moment.

And I dont agree with your breakdown at all. Kobe actually continued deferring year 1 without Shaq. That was the year they missed the playoffs, yes, but it was with Kobe trying to play more of a top of the key, point of attack game, he was averaging a career high in assists (and turnovers) 41 games into his season. Then Hamblen took over and Kobe returned to isolating on the wing. Yes he has tunnel vision, but hes always had that, hes also suppressed his scoring instincts for teammates as well.

I remember that 05 Season vividly because it was the year I fell in love with Caron Butler's game. He and Kobe were killing it to close the season but the team spiraled out of playoff contention. Caron Butler went on to make the All-Star game in Washington but he constantly cites his years with Kobe as the growing experience necessary to max out his potential. Thats still Kobe making them better, especially considering he had the best season to that point alongside Kobe.


The following year they traded Kobe's support offensively in exchange for a bigman who could defend the post 1v1. The idea being that Kobe could handle more of an offensive load but that he needed more defensive support. Thats when he began chucking at will, but it coincided with the best years from Odom, Kwame, Smush, Mihm, Bynum, Pau etc....

Chronz
09-10-2015, 03:48 PM
The Pippen factor for Jordan winning in the playoffs in his 4th season gets way overrated on PSD in my opinion. Jordan went to a mess of a team that had a lot of players on drugs. Somehow they made the playoffs in his rookie year because of him. I do not remember who they lost to in the first round. The next year he also dragged them to the playoffs but they ran in to one of the greatest teams of all time in the 1986 Larry Bird Celtics. I think they played Bird and the Celtics in 87 as well. The Bulls and Jordan then won in the first round in his 4th year. By that time with a better coach and a lot of new players the team was starting to at least be decent around Jordan but there were no other stars at that point. Pippen was no absolutely no big deal at that point.

They made the playoffs cuz the East had sub.500 teams making the playoffs, the Bulls did make it because of him but they did hold the fort down for abit when he was mending his broken foot.

Point being, nobody expects him to beat those teams in the playoffs, but why is he being seeded so low to begin with? Did he really lack that much support than a young Bron?

Chronz
09-10-2015, 04:03 PM
Care to expand on your reasoning at all? I just don't see how it is time for Kobe with Magic/Lebron on the board. The same way I did for Bird I will point out that while Kobe has many seasons in the league the first 3ish he wasn't at an elite level and the last 3 he couldn't finish the season. Those 6 years make up a lot of the difference in longevity but don't really add tons of value to his resume. Outside of those years Magic/Lebron were clearly the better players at their peak/prime and had pretty long primes as well. I think it is weird to say Kobe makes players around him better than Magic/Lebron did as well.

Just curious as to some of the reasoning you have, you always seem to have support and I'm wondering if I am overlooking something here.

Why Magic? Kobe was overrated defensively but he could turn it on in ways Magic never could. Magic may be the best offensive player ever, but are you certain its enough to offset his defensive shortcomings in this comparison? Kobe was better in the halfcourt I think. That leaves us with longevity and Kobe crushes him there.

Kobe had the more impressive peak run IMO too. From 06-10, he was in perfect mode, shame he never had the horses during that specific time.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2015, 04:11 PM
Kobe is/was great Chronz but I just don't see how Kobe makes teammates better than Lebron. That's one thing I can't comprehend.

Chronz
09-10-2015, 04:15 PM
Kobe is/was great Chronz but I just don't see how Kobe makes teammates better than Lebron. That's one thing I can't comprehend.

Its close enough for me to go either way with it but it sounds like you think its one sided. Not really sure why but thats the prevailing thought among most fans I think.

Clippersfan86
09-10-2015, 04:27 PM
Its close enough for me to go either way with it but it sounds like you think its one sided. Not really sure why but thats the prevailing thought among most fans I think.

I think mainly because that's what Lebron is specifically known to be great at. It's one reason he has consistently been compared to Magic more than Jordan. I don't think it's a huge gap, but I also think it's clear cut IMO. Kobe has made some teammates better but I don't think he's getting as much out of teammates as LeBron did, especially ones lacking talent like the 07 Cavs finals team for example.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-10-2015, 05:31 PM
Like I said, I don't blame Jordan one bit. I'm just pointing out that Lebron got further when he had less help than Jordan did. Sure Jordan had to contend with Bird's Celtics and Bad Boy Pistons but Lebron caught the Sheed/Billups/Prince/Rip Pistons when they were still a top 10 team on both ends of the floor and won 53 or 54 games. That series was the crazy game where Lebron scored something like 28 of the 31 4th quarter points and willed the Cavs on if I'm remembering correctly.

This year on paper the Cavs were loaded but due to being decimated by injuries, Lebron was again tasked with carrying a team that isn't even a clear cut playoff team without him, even in the east to game 6 of the finals against maybe the 4th best team ever statistically.

I understand what you are trying to say but I respectfully disagree. Jordan went to a Bulls team full of players with drug issues. Lebron had Carlos Boozer and Zydrunas Ilgauskas to help him as a rookie. I think their situations are open to debate.

mngopher35
09-10-2015, 06:37 PM
Why Magic? Kobe was overrated defensively but he could turn it on in ways Magic never could. Magic may be the best offensive player ever, but are you certain its enough to offset his defensive shortcomings in this comparison?

Maybe this is where we differ the most but for me the difference in offensive impact is substantial here and I value offense more than defense (especially with wings). I also think Kobe has been all around overrated on the defensive end for much of his career. I think elite defensive Kobe ended before he hit that peak run you were talking about. Capable of great stretches but overall lacking IMO.

So while Kobe was clearly the better defender I think that the gap isn't much bigger than the offensive gap between them (especially factoring in offensive value is more important than defense from non bigs/anchors).



Kobe was better in the halfcourt I think. That leaves us with longevity and Kobe crushes him there.

This would make the second statement about Kobe I disagree with from you. I think Magic makes players around him better and was better in the half court than Kobe. Kobe had a better one on one game in the half court and especially mid-range/post but overall I think his teams tended to falter later in games (as did his own numbers) where as Magic was one of the better offensive managers/playmakers out there. Kobe might have had better half court skills but I don't think he turned that into a better impact in the half court.

On top of that I think that the longevity part isn't quite as big as people believe. His first 3 years and last two years were pretty bad overall and nothing that would really help a legacy. That is 7000 minutes of his career playing at a very low level that won't really add much value despite being "longevity". Sure he does have 7000+ minutes still on him which is the equivalent of a few seasons but it isn't as drastic as it looks (especially since there were a couple years he couldn't finish due to injury).


Kobe had the more impressive peak run IMO too. From 06-10, he was in perfect mode, shame he never had the horses during that specific time.

I don't think it was more impressive but to each their own as it was probably pretty close (that definitely wasn't great defensive Kobe as I'm sure you know). I will say that if we look at the best 12 years of Magic vs. the best 13 years of Kobe (both had 12 playoff runs in the span) I think Magic was the better, more accomplished player (FMVP/MVP advantage which is big for me accolades wise, also better statistically). Outside of those 13 years I don't think Kobe is giving much more to the point where I would take the lesser player for the added longevity (1997-1999 and 2013-2015 is the Kobe you get and it just isn't adding tons of value).

Clippersfan86
09-10-2015, 09:49 PM
I understand what you are trying to say but I respectfully disagree. Jordan went to a Bulls team full of players with drug issues. Lebron had Carlos Boozer and Zydrunas Ilgauskas to help him as a rookie. I think their situations are open to debate.

I didn't say Jordan didn't have a worse squad. I'm saying he didn't get as far as Lebron with said crappy squads. The mid 80's east was in a similar state as the east in Lebron's time where they had 1 juggernaut, 2-3 borderline contenders and a bunch of **** teams. Pistons being the one in young Lebron era, Celtics in Jordan's era. Pistons were great too but in mid 80's hadn't peaked yet.

The SRS of the top 10 teams in the east for both eras was very comparable.

Tony_Starks
09-10-2015, 10:57 PM
Kobe is/was great Chronz but I just don't see how Kobe makes teammates better than Lebron. That's one thing I can't comprehend.


I don't think its coincidence that Shaq and Gasol had their greatest seasons ever alongside Kobe. Shaq went from great to unstoppable and Gasol went from fringe all-star that a lot of teams questioned if he was worth the contract to best big man in the game conversation.

Those weren't coincidences. As he got better not only did Kobe demand so much attention but he is also a very underrated and crafty passer when playing alongside trusted teammates.

Not to mention role players like Odom, Bynum, Shannon Brown, Sasha....etc....who all thrived alongside him.

The Lakers not only got away with starting Fisher at point but went to 3 straight Finals with him. Just think about that for a second, he couldn't even start for another team.

Lebron is Magic 2k, nobody can discount his impact on teammates. But we have never seen a player with Kobe's scoring ability have that kind of impact on teammates the way he did with that level of success...

vics
09-11-2015, 04:52 AM
Lebron should have been 6th the least. Oh well voting for Bron.

RocketLoc80
09-11-2015, 10:22 AM
It should be between Magic and Lebron here but I went with Lebron because I am not looking at the shallow and easy cop out of rings. Its about peak,performance and dominance for me. Now I can make a case for Magic over Lebron because of longevity but i don`t think Lebron has had the teams that where deep as Magic had. Plus the fact that Lebron has performed on the same level as Magic with less. And another thing how is Kobe in this conversation with these two and how is it last year Lebron outpaced Kobe on this listt year and now it`s close? Are people easily influenced by the finals that people actually knocked Lebron down their list. I remember Chronz had Lebron over Kobe now I see he actually dropped him down a peg without taking the situation into account as the quality of teammates available? So I want to know from all of you so called experts have some of you really dropped Lebron down the ATL because he lost in the finals?

SLY WILLIAMS
09-11-2015, 10:46 AM
Hakeem the 6th best player of all time.

Kobe 12 votes
Larry Bird 2 votes

The silly season has started on PSD :)

Tony_Starks
09-11-2015, 11:51 AM
Hakeem the 6th best player of all time.

Kobe 12 votes
Larry Bird 2 votes

The silly season has started on PSD :)


I say we get the momentum started now to get D Rob at 8.

Advance stats love him, lets do it!!

Chronz
09-11-2015, 12:27 PM
I say we get the momentum started now to get D Rob at 8.

Advance stats love him, lets do it!!

you keep alluding to stats but its already been explained there is no correlation considering Hakeem wasnt really a statistical demon. find something else to whine about. its not even crazy to put him on that level. bird struggled ... ALOT and had a short career, really wish you guys would get over that.

Tony_Starks
09-11-2015, 12:35 PM
I say we get the momentum started now to get D Rob at 8.

Advance stats love him, lets do it!!

you keep alluding to stats but its already been explained there is no correlation considering Hakeem wasnt really a statistical demon. find something else to whine about. its not even crazy to put him on that level. bird struggled ... ALOT and had a short career, really wish you guys would get over that.

Every time I see someone allude to D Rob being top ten it is usually followed by a laundry list of alphabets in caps so yeah.....I'm whining about that.

I'm not sure what crack they were smoking to put Hakeem at 6 but certainly advanced stats would have a lot to do with the Robinsons of the world creeping into a top 10.

kdspurman
09-11-2015, 12:40 PM
Every time I see someone allude to D Rob being top ten it is usually followed by a laundry list of alphabets in caps so yeah.....I'm whining about that.

I'm not sure what crack they were smoking to put Hakeem at 6 but certainly advanced stats would have a lot to do with the Robinsons of the world creeping into a top 10.

I think I've only seen 1 person on this site who considers D-Rob a top 10 player. I think most have him in that 13-20ish range

ManRam
09-11-2015, 12:55 PM
Every time I see someone allude to D Rob being top ten it is usually followed by a laundry list of alphabets in caps so yeah.....I'm whining about that.

I'm not sure what crack they were smoking to put Hakeem at 6 but certainly advanced stats would have a lot to do with the Robinsons of the world creeping into a top 10.

I think you're conflating a lot of things and trying to explain a bunch of different things with one possible answer...and that one possible answer isn't there.

I agree, the argument for Robinson in the top-10 definitely comes from advanced stats. I don't agree that it's prevalent. He isn't even on this poll. I do think that's why there has been a very subtle, but consistent, rise in his all-time perception since he's retired...and that comes from how we are slowly changing how we judge players in lieu of an exponentially increasing amount of data, statistics and knowledge.

But the argument for Hakeem at #6 can't possibly, because as Chronz eloquantly put it, he "wasnt really a statistical demon".

RocketLoc80
09-11-2015, 12:55 PM
No one answered my question? How does somebody who had their position in the top 10 lose and drop after one season how the hell is Kobe winning this poll? I bet some of you Kobetards have multiple accounts with this garbage

RocketLoc80
09-11-2015, 01:04 PM
PSD has really gone down the drain this list became a joke once Shaq went 4th ,Hakeem went 6th and looks like everybody`s hero Kobe is gonna go ahead of Magic,Bird and Lebron

Chronz
09-11-2015, 01:12 PM
It should be between Magic and Lebron here but I went with Lebron because I am not looking at the shallow and easy cop out of rings. Its about peak,performance and dominance for me. Now I can make a case for Magic over Lebron because of longevity but i don`t think Lebron has had the teams that where deep as Magic had. Plus the fact that Lebron has performed on the same level as Magic with less. And another thing how is Kobe in this conversation with these two and how is it last year Lebron outpaced Kobe on this listt year and now it`s close? Are people easily influenced by the finals that people actually knocked Lebron down their list. I remember Chronz had Lebron over Kobe now I see he actually dropped him down a peg without taking the situation into account as the quality of teammates available? So I want to know from all of you so called experts have some of you really dropped Lebron down the ATL because he lost in the finals?

Never had Bron ahead of Kobe on the AT scale. Have him finishing higher, just not yet

tredigs
09-11-2015, 01:48 PM
No one answered my question? How does somebody who had their position in the top 10 lose and drop after one season how the hell is Kobe winning this poll? I bet some of you Kobetards have multiple accounts with this garbage

This is an actual question you have?

Let's see... low # of voters = high variance, especially when many of the voters are different people and not everyone votes on each of these polls. Everyone has different criteria and different lists, and peoples own opinions themselves can change within the debate (let alone over a year+).

I'm not a fan of the list particularly either (I echo the Shaq/Hakeem are too high), but it's not like Dominique Wilkins is 4th and Zeke is 2nd. All the players have a fairly reasonable case of landing where they have. Our list is just particularly unique to most All-Time lists (including the larger bball version of this site) where a Bill Russell very rarely falls outside top 10 and often goes top 3.

Tony_Starks
09-11-2015, 02:11 PM
Every time I see someone allude to D Rob being top ten it is usually followed by a laundry list of alphabets in caps so yeah.....I'm whining about that.

I'm not sure what crack they were smoking to put Hakeem at 6 but certainly advanced stats would have a lot to do with the Robinsons of the world creeping into a top 10.

I think I've only seen 1 person on this site who considers D-Rob a top 10 player. I think most have him in that 13-20ish range


I thought I've seen him brought up a few times but I don't know you could be right , it might've been the same poster.

Honestly I was so appalled at the very notion I just tapped out like what in the hell is this world coming to?

Chronz
09-11-2015, 02:14 PM
Maybe this is where we differ the most but for me the difference in offensive impact is substantial here and I value offense more than defense (especially with wings). I also think Kobe has been all around overrated on the defensive end for much of his career. I think elite defensive Kobe ended before he hit that peak run you were talking about. Capable of great stretches but overall lacking IMO.

So while Kobe was clearly the better defender I think that the gap isn't much bigger than the offensive gap between them (especially factoring in offensive value is more important than defense from non bigs/anchors).
The reason Kobe's defense was overrated was because he was lauded for his regular season exploits when he was basically mediocre on that end unless a matchup piqued his interest, but come playoffs, his rep was well deserved. He was better on the ball during his youth, but he was elite as a roamer during the stretch I mentioned and was gamely up for most challenges, like when he had to take on the bigger Melo. During (or after) the 2010 Finals, Doc Rivers mentioned how Kobe has been the best free safety hes seen since the days of Scottie Pippen. I guess I just dont see how a massive difference in defensive ability/impact is mitigated by whatever offensive difference you find, I mean we're talking about a guy who could outscore an entire team for most of the game, one of the best scorers ever and a guy who generally led elite offenses in his own right. Even if it were offset by Magic's passing ability, theres still the longevity factor.




This would make the second statement about Kobe I disagree with from you. I think Magic makes players around him better and was better in the half court than Kobe. Kobe had a better one on one game in the half court and especially mid-range/post but overall I think his teams tended to falter later in games (as did his own numbers) where as Magic was one of the better offensive managers/playmakers out there. Kobe might have had better half court skills but I don't think he turned that into a better impact in the half court.

Would love to have the numbers on Magic in that area but clutch play isnt more important than the totality of the game and I dont agree that Magic was on his level in the halfcourt. Its the entire reason he wanted his championship winning coach gone, he didn't like slowing the game down for Kareem and he didn't like sharing the ball with a true PG so he had both of them deleted. Magic was the type of guy you could leave wide open from the perimeter and not care what he did. But agree to disagree.


On top of that I think that the longevity part isn't quite as big as people believe. His first 3 years and last two years were pretty bad overall and nothing that would really help a legacy. That is 7000 minutes of his career playing at a very low level that won't really add much value despite being "longevity". Sure he does have 7000+ minutes still on him which is the equivalent of a few seasons but it isn't as drastic as it looks (especially since there were a couple years he couldn't finish due to injury).

A 6MOY caliber season and another fringe All-Star season to start his career dont do much for his longevity but would it rank higher than Magic missing most of a season to injury and being such a cancerous distraction to the locker room that it led to an upset by a sub.500 team? Assuming not, taking away those 5 seasons, hes still got 1039 games, 40335 Mins

Looking at Magic's entire career (save for his comeback season), he only amasses 874 games, 32287 Mins

So its still an advantage for Kobe.



I don't think it was more impressive but to each their own as it was probably pretty close (that definitely wasn't great defensive Kobe as I'm sure you know).
Not sure what this means, him being overrated doesn't mean he wasn't significantly better than Magic. Magic got worse defensively as time went on as well, only Kobe was still drawing praise for his defensive ability, hell he was the designated stopper on team USA during this stage. He had flummoxed the Celtics offensive attack with how he played off of Rondo. It wasn't peak defensive Kobe but he was still great defensively when it counted.


I will say that if we look at the best 12 years of Magic vs. the best 13 years of Kobe (both had 12 playoff runs in the span) I think Magic was the better, more accomplished player (FMVP/MVP advantage which is big for me accolades wise, also better statistically). Outside of those 13 years I don't think Kobe is giving much more to the point where I would take the lesser player for the added longevity (1997-1999 and 2013-2015 is the Kobe you get and it just isn't adding tons of value).
Have you accounted for the fact that the NBA didn't want Kareem to win the FMVP because he wasn't around to hand it out to? The press was pressured into it, some of them have already apologized to Kareem. And what if I dont believe Magic would have won any FMVP playing alongside Peak Shaq?
These subjective elements is why I would rather focus on their team accomplishments+individual contributions. Magic may have better numbers but last I checked it was pretty close, especially once we get to the playoff adjusted rates (No player in modern NBA history has faced more defensively dominant squads to accumulate his numbers than Kobe). Magic had it relatively easy when looking at his opponents strength of defense. The primary difference for me was that while Magic had to be hidden or in some cases, abused defensively, Kobe would lock up some star PG/SG's over the years.

Still, it sounds like a fun exercise lets start with the absolute worst runs. Cuz there is no doubt which one stands out the most.



#24 - 1981 Magic - Defending Champs enter the playoffs under the discourse Magic had with teammates and coaching staff. Not only did he undermine the team but he played poorly to boot. This led directly to his contending caliber team to bow out in R1 to a sub.500 squad. Doesn't get any worse.


Whats Kobe's worst?

FlashBolt
09-11-2015, 02:36 PM
I don't think its coincidence that Shaq and Gasol had their greatest seasons ever alongside Kobe. Shaq went from great to unstoppable and Gasol went from fringe all-star that a lot of teams questioned if he was worth the contract to best big man in the game conversation.

Those weren't coincidences. As he got better not only did Kobe demand so much attention but he is also a very underrated and crafty passer when playing alongside trusted teammates.

Not to mention role players like Odom, Bynum, Shannon Brown, Sasha....etc....who all thrived alongside him.

The Lakers not only got away with starting Fisher at point but went to 3 straight Finals with him. Just think about that for a second, he couldn't even start for another team.

Lebron is Magic 2k, nobody can discount his impact on teammates. But we have never seen a player with Kobe's scoring ability have that kind of impact on teammates the way he did with that level of success...

Actually... very simple. There's a reason why many professionals use ages 27-32 as the "prime" of an athlete's career. At that age, they are experienced enough and also, their body is at their most mature. Shaq/Gasol during their stints in LAL were during those ages. And it's funny you're using this double-standard nonsense when you always downplay the teammates that Kobe had. Gasol was the best big man in the game? Shaq went from unstoppable? Let me know when LeBron had or has that. I'm beginning to think you don't even watch basketball! Lakers thrived because their system doesn't require a legendary type PG. Who's the PG for the NYK? Someone no one cares about because that's not their focus. It's funny you mention this because this exact system was the one that Jordan won with -- no PG. So you clearly don't even know how basketball works in regards to your own team. "We have never seen a player with Kobe's scoring ability to have that kind of impact on teammates the way he did with that level of success." WHAT???????? How about the guy he copied and is regarded as the GOAT? And you've named all these role players as if other championship teams never had these role players who "thrived" with them. Mario Chalmers, Norris Cole, Birdman, Udonis Haslem, Shane Battier. Yeah, these guys never thrived playing in Miami with LeBron... just Shannon Brown and Sasha. Good one!


Every time I see someone allude to D Rob being top ten it is usually followed by a laundry list of alphabets in caps so yeah.....I'm whining about that.

I'm not sure what crack they were smoking to put Hakeem at 6 but certainly advanced stats would have a lot to do with the Robinsons of the world creeping into a top 10.

Who's saying Robinson is top ten besides IKNOWHOOPS? Using what one person says as "proof" just shows how much you're lacking. It's also funny that you provide absolutely zero arguments as to why one player deserves to be above another. You're just disagreeing and ranting about it with no actual substance. And for someone who loves to say PSD is biased and hates Kobe, he has the same votes as LeBron... so I think you're a tad bit confused here.


I understand what you are trying to say but I respectfully disagree. Jordan went to a Bulls team full of players with drug issues. Lebron had Carlos Boozer and Zydrunas Ilgauskas to help him as a rookie. I think their situations are open to debate.

Dude, are you serious? At that point, Boozer was a sophomore in the game... hardly a veteran presence. Zydrunas might have been somewhat helpful but I doubt it was monumental. And James was a recent HS graduate coming into the NBA at age 17-18, expecting to already be the face of this franchise. MJ was not more hyped than LeBron coming into the NBA. Jordan didn't have it great like Magic and Kobe but to suggest to the slightest that James had more? No way.

RocketLoc80
09-11-2015, 04:00 PM
This is an actual question you have?

Let's see... low # of voters = high variance, especially when many of the voters are different people and not everyone votes on each of these polls. Everyone has different criteria and different lists, and peoples own opinions themselves can change within the debate (let alone over a year+).

I'm not a fan of the list particularly either (I echo the Shaq/Hakeem are too high), but it's not like Dominique Wilkins is 4th and Zeke is 2nd. All the players have a fairly reasonable case of landing where they have. Our list is just particularly unique to most All-Time lists (including the larger bball version of this site) where a Bill Russell very rarely falls outside top 10 and often goes top 3.


Ok so you saying Lebron` shortcomings in the finals despite not taking into consideration the circumstances in what lead to those loses is seen as a negative light and because he lot this year you feel that he should be lowered on the list? That is very asinine and short sighted because every great player loses but not because of that player most of the time. The only one he should be accounted for was 2011 and that was it. Wilt has a 2 and 4 record in the finals too and he hasn`t lost his place .

mngopher35
09-11-2015, 04:42 PM
The reason Kobe's defense was overrated was because he was lauded for his regular season exploits when he was basically mediocre on that end unless a matchup piqued his interest, but come playoffs, his rep was well deserved. He was better on the ball during his youth, but he was elite as a roamer during the stretch I mentioned and was gamely up for most challenges, like when he had to take on the bigger Melo. During (or after) the 2010 Finals, Doc Rivers mentioned how Kobe has been the best free safety hes seen since the days of Scottie Pippen. I guess I just dont see how a massive difference in defensive ability/impact is mitigated by whatever offensive difference you find, I mean we're talking about a guy who could outscore an entire team for most of the game, one of the best scorers ever and a guy who generally led elite offenses in his own right. Even if it were offset by Magic's passing ability, theres still the longevity factor.

This is somewhat true about the playoffs, it definitely got better there (regular seasons he was bad due to effort). I still think he was overrated outside of his time as an elite 1v1 defender. They usually gave him a match up like rondo when he was "free safety", so while he was good at that role he wasn't as effective by that time when there was no easy match up. I think a lot of smart players who aren't necessarily great defenders can play in that role effectively (example Bird wasn't a great defender in totality but used his IQ to make some plays like this and usually got weaker offensive players). I hadn't heard that from Doc though maybe I underrate his impact a bit on that end (although Boston would be a great match up for him there).

Magic was actually good when given this type of role too though, he even lead the league in spg a couple times (sure he took gambles but so did Kobe and both had plenty work out). I am not saying Magic is equal on defense or anything but I do think the gap isn't as drastic as it could seem based on accolades. If we are considering being a good roamer on weak offensive players as great defense I think it could somewhat apply to Magic too. To me Magic was a far more efficient team leader who took what was given instead of trying to force what he wanted on the defense. Their offensive efficiency is as big of a gap as their defense and I value offensive output more especially when we aren't talking anchors.



Would love to have the numbers on Magic in that area but clutch play isnt more important than the totality of the game and I dont agree that Magic was on his level in the halfcourt. Its the entire reason he wanted his championship winning coach gone, he didn't like slowing the game down for Kareem and he didn't like sharing the ball with a true PG so he had both of them deleted. Magic was the type of guy you could leave wide open from the perimeter and not care what he did. But agree to disagree.

I wasn't touting it as much as clutch play as I was trying to find the time in the game where it slows down and you have to run half court offense more. To me the end of the game is more like that where both teams value possessions a bit more. In those scenarios I just think Magic was all around better due to his style of play and being open to taking the right play. Kobe was more of a force the issue with scoring type in the half court and I think it shows later in games with his drop off.

How often was magic actually just left alone where his defender was making plays though? It really didn't happen a ton from what I remember. Sure it might be different today if his shot was lacking but it wasn't as big of an issue when he played. I am sure Magic did like to push the pace as he was also great in the open court, but when the game slowed down he was still better than Kobe on that end. Once again Kobe may have had some better skills in the half court offense, but Magic was the more impactful offensive player/leader there.


A 6MOY caliber season and another fringe All-Star season to start his career dont do much for his longevity but would it rank higher than Magic missing most of a season to injury and being such a cancerous distraction to the locker room that it led to an upset by a sub.500 team? Assuming not, taking away those 5 seasons, hes still got 1039 games, 40335 Mins

Looking at Magic's entire career (save for his comeback season), he only amasses 874 games, 32287 Mins

So its still an advantage for Kobe.

It is still advantage Kobe but those years aren't anything that makes me want the lesser player over their prime is my point. Sure he can contribute a bit during that time but we are talking of a far lesser version player (6th moy compared to top 10 all time). While those minutes do look nice I don't think they translate into many great seasons of play though is what I'm saying. A few more mpg over a large span of time isn't going to mean much to me but extra seasons of good play would. I was comparing Magic from 80-91 and Kobe from 2000-2012 as their prime. Outside of that Kobe has those first 3 years and last 3 years (only good season ended with injury).

I am saying that in the years I didn't compare I don't see enough top level play from Kobe, a few extra poor-mediocre years doesn't help longevity as much imo.




Not sure what this means, him being overrated doesn't mean he wasn't significantly better than Magic. Magic got worse defensively as time went on as well, only Kobe was still drawing praise for his defensive ability, hell he was the designated stopper on team USA during this stage. He had flummoxed the Celtics offensive attack with how he played off of Rondo. It wasn't peak defensive Kobe but he was still great defensively when it counted.

I was simply saying that peak Kobe wasn't the defensive stopper he was in his early years. It is just to point out that in those peak years you mentioned Kobe was better offensively but worse defensively. I shouldn't have added that as it seems to have just been confusing. Basically at their peak Magic was still better offensively IMO and the defensive difference wasn't quite as big (although you are correct it was still an advantage).


Have you accounted for the fact that the NBA didn't want Kareem to win the FMVP because he wasn't around to hand it out to? The press was pressured into it, some of them have already apologized to Kareem.

This is true but didn't Magic also not receive a FMVP later in his career in part to a great game 7 by Worthy? I do get your point here but he does have the accolades and I believe his level of play getting his rings was higher as well. I will get into what I mean shortly.



And what if I dont believe Magic would have won any FMVP playing alongside Peak Shaq?
These subjective elements is why I would rather focus on their team accomplishments+individual contributions. Magic may have better numbers but last I checked it was pretty close, especially once we get to the playoff adjusted rates (No player in modern NBA history has faced more defensively dominant squads to accumulate his numbers than Kobe). Magic had it relatively easy when looking at his opponents strength of defense. The primary difference for me was that while Magic had to be hidden or in some cases, abused defensively, Kobe would lock up some star PG/SG's over the years.

While it is definitely possible that Magic wouldn't win a FMVP vs. Shaq I think his level of play for his 5 rings was higher than Kobe. To me it is the difference in their level of play that allows the accolades difference to be validated. Kobe benefited greatly from Shaq and less so the other way around. You yourself have shown how much those lakers struggled when Shaq was out but not as much the other way around. I think Magic/Kareem benefited from each other much more equally (and I think Magic was the bigger influence offensively). That is an extremely big point to make if you want to look into the context of their accolades.

Magic to me was a more impactful player for any combination of 3 of his rings than Kobe was for those 3 championship years next to Shaq. In fact as Kobe got better and was on his way to becoming truly great, he started hurting the team more by trying to prove he was the better player it seemed. So sure we can look at their level of play to receive their accolades but to me that still helps out Magic.


Still, it sounds like a fun exercise lets start with the absolute worst runs. Cuz there is no doubt which one stands out the most.



#24 - 1981 Magic - Defending Champs enter the playoffs under the discourse Magic had with teammates and coaching staff. Not only did he undermine the team but he played poorly to boot. This led directly to his contending caliber team to bow out in R1 to a sub.500 squad. Doesn't get any worse.


Whats Kobe's worst?

2004 loss to the Pistons where instead of going back to the championship ways of letting Shaq dominate Kobe needed to prove he was the man. He basically shot his team out of the finals. This all ends with Shaq going to Miami and the Lakers being poor for 3 years without him, even missing the playoffs the following season.

mngopher35
09-11-2015, 04:49 PM
By the way Chronz I actually think Lebron has a great argument when compared to Kobe too. While I went with Magic due to your initial post there are actually 2 players I think should go before we hit Kobe/Bird.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-11-2015, 05:34 PM
Dude, are you serious? At that point, Boozer was a sophomore in the game... hardly a veteran presence. Zydrunas might have been somewhat helpful but I doubt it was monumental. And James was a recent HS graduate coming into the NBA at age 17-18, expecting to already be the face of this franchise. MJ was not more hyped than LeBron coming into the NBA. Jordan didn't have it great like Magic and Kobe but to suggest to the slightest that James had more? No way.

Yes I'm serious. Boozer at 15ppg-11rpg and Big Z at 15ppg-8rpg-2.5bpg were just as good or better than the drug saddled Bulls players that Jordan had as a rookie. I'm not a Jordan or a Lebron fan so I have no reason to look at it in a biased manner towards either player. Neither Jordan nor Lebron changed their teams in as dramatic a way as Bird did as a rookie.

Hawkeye15
09-11-2015, 07:32 PM
I voted Magic here. That rounds out this tier for me.

Hawkeye15
09-11-2015, 07:33 PM
Yes I'm serious. Boozer at 15ppg-11rpg and Big Z at 15ppg-8rpg-2.5bpg were just as good or better than the drug saddled Bulls players that Jordan had as a rookie. I'm not a Jordan or a Lebron fan so I have no reason to look at it in a biased manner towards either player. Neither Jordan nor Lebron changed their teams in as dramatic a way as Bird did as a rookie.

Jordan was 21 and had crap for teammates, LeBron was 18 and had crap for teammates. Bird turned 23 his rookie year, and had way more help.

We have been through this though. Bird didn't play long enough for his peak to put him top 5, and there are some guys like LeBron who had better peaks and are already at his games played level.

Bird is top 10, but I fear you overrate him all the time.

Chronz
09-11-2015, 08:05 PM
This is somewhat true about the playoffs, it definitely got better there (regular seasons he was bad due to effort). I still think he was overrated outside of his time as an elite 1v1 defender. They usually gave him a match up like rondo when he was "free safety", so while he was good at that role he wasn't as effective by that time when there was no easy match up. I think a lot of smart players who aren't necessarily great defenders can play in that role effectively (example Bird wasn't a great defender in totality but used his IQ to make some plays like this and usually got weaker offensive players). I hadn't heard that from Doc though maybe I underrate his impact a bit on that end (although Boston would be a great match up for him there).
You're confusing me here.
Bad defenders CANNOT accomplish the free safety role at an elite level. Your example of Bird is a great one, he was only a great trapper during his early years and was making All-Defensive teams because of it. Once his help and recover ability declined, he was no longer that kind of player. Magic is someone I consider a high IQ player but he was NEVER considered in that same realm. Boston was a great team, so Kobe being a great matchup for them isn't as concerning a point for me. Not really sure where you're trying to go with that one, suffice it to say, Magic could have never done what Kobe did to that team defensively. Magic was the type you had to hide or risk getting obliterated by opposing speedsters, Kobe was never that guy in his prime.



Magic was actually good when given this type of role too though, he even lead the league in spg a couple times (sure he took gambles but so did Kobe and both had plenty work out). I am not saying Magic is equal on defense or anything but I do think the gap isn't as drastic as it could seem based on accolades. If we are considering being a good roamer on weak offensive players as great defense I think it could somewhat apply to Magic too. To me Magic was a far more efficient team leader who took what was given instead of trying to force what he wanted on the defense. Their offensive efficiency is as big of a gap as their defense and I value offensive output more especially when we aren't talking anchors.

Actually good? Even if I agreed, he was NEVER All-League material.
As for not being as drastic as the accolades suggest? Well **** man, you just got done telling me how much accolades matter to you but when someone outnumbers someone else ZERO to being THE Historical leader, you got to have more to say than that. Seems rather inconsistent to me.

In general I agree but whatever the case may be, defense is THE difference between the 2 IMO. Kobe was a GREAT offensive player, even the most drastic of haters can admit that much, whereas Magic was NEVER a great defensive player and even his greatest fans have to admit he was NEVER All-League caliber. Hell, at his worst he was a straight up liability. Hes very lucky the best PG's werent on the teams that could punish him for that.



I wasn't touting it as much as clutch play as I was trying to find the time in the game where it slows down and you have to run half court offense more. To me the end of the game is more like that where both teams value possessions a bit more. In those scenarios I just think Magic was all around better due to his style of play and being open to taking the right play. Kobe was more of a force the issue with scoring type in the half court and I think it shows later in games with his drop off.

Problem being the time in the game you referenced was available for only 1 player, so its a moot point. It was also so incredibly small of a sample that it makes it hard to take serious if you're trying to convey it as halfcourt efficiency. Halfcourt efficiency comes from the entire game, not just raw/1 sided stats.



How often was magic actually just left alone where his defender was making plays though?
Considering it was illegal to do so, not much, doesn't change the fact that he was a guy you could leave alone whenever you had to trap. Whereas if you did that with Kobe, he'd light you up. Kobe could play in both eras equally well, whereas Magic, as an oversized PG with a ****** jumper, couldn't. And he was left open more often for my liking, IIRC, he literally missed 90% of his wide open jumpers against the Bulls in 91. Kobe would never do that, if you forced him into uncontested half court shots, he would burry you.



It really didn't happen a ton from what I remember. Sure it might be different today if his shot was lacking but it wasn't as big of an issue when he played. I am sure Magic did like to push the pace as he was also great in the open court, but when the game slowed down he was still better than Kobe on that end. Once again Kobe may have had some better skills in the half court offense, but Magic was the more impactful offensive player/leader there.

It couldn't happen a ton because of the rules in place, which makes these comparisons really hard, but even judging by their own era's, Im not seeing how one of the elite 2 way guys is below someone whos game doesn't translate as well and lacks the same impact defensively, regardless of any era.



It is still advantage Kobe but those years aren't anything that makes me want the lesser player over their prime is my point. Sure he can contribute a bit during that time but we are talking of a far lesser version player (6th moy compared to top 10 all time). While those minutes do look nice I don't think they translate into many great seasons of play though is what I'm saying. A few more mpg over a large span of time isn't going to mean much to me but extra seasons of good play would. I was comparing Magic from 80-91 and Kobe from 2000-2012 as their prime. Outside of that Kobe has those first 3 years and last 3 years (only good season ended with injury).
I already agreed with that synopsis, what I was asking you was if you valued those years more than Magic endangering his team chemistry and missing most of the season altogether, especially considering how poorly he played in the playoffs. I dont know about you but those extra years (At a 6MOY and AS level) mean just as much as Magic missing most of the season and playing like **** in the playoffs. So either way, longevity IS in Kobes favor.



I am saying that in the years I didn't compare I don't see enough top level play from Kobe, a few extra poor-mediocre years doesn't help longevity as much imo.
Definitely your prerogative, but you cannot deny the longevity argument favors Kobe.



I was simply saying that peak Kobe wasn't the defensive stopper he was in his early years. It is just to point out that in those peak years you mentioned Kobe was better offensively but worse defensively. I shouldn't have added that as it seems to have just been confusing. Basically at their peak Magic was still better offensively IMO and the defensive difference wasn't quite as big (although you are correct it was still an advantage).
I know what you were trying to get at, my point was that whatever decline you feel happen in Kobe's defensive game, the same happened for Magic as he aged. The only difference is that while Magic was RARELY a great defender at ANY age, Kobe was STILL drawing praise for his defense during his absolute peak. I understand he wasn't the youngster who could slow anyone down 1v1, but he was STILL an elite defender when it counted. Considering Magic's peak came when he himself was declining as a defender, Im not seeing why your point should matter much. Simply put, you can identify ANY stretch and Kobe will always be the better defender by a significant margin. The onus is then on you to prove why Magic is a better offensive player than someone who was an ELITE offensive player in his own right.



This is true but didn't Magic also not receive a FMVP later in his career in part to a great game 7 by Worthy? I do get your point here but he does have the accolades and I believe his level of play getting his rings was higher as well. I will get into what I mean shortly.

Hey if you could find me voters who admitted to being forced to wrongfully select Worthy over Magic I would care, but Magic was in fact his 2nd or 3rd best option that series.



While it is definitely possible that Magic wouldn't win a FMVP vs. Shaq
You're underselling the possibility I think. Shaq was more dominant than both the guys in question during their Finals attack IMO. I would argue that Kobe in 01 was better than anyone else who never won FMVP.


I think his level of play for his 5 rings was higher than Kobe. To me it is the difference in their level of play that allows the accolades difference to be validated. Kobe benefited greatly from Shaq and less so the other way around. You yourself have shown how much those lakers struggled when Shaq was out but not as much the other way around. I think Magic/Kareem benefited from each other much more equally (and I think Magic was the bigger influence offensively). That is an extremely big point to make if you want to look into the context of their accolades.
Its a big point to make for sure, you just havent shown anything regarding their impact in relation to each other. We're not arguing Peak Shaq vs Young Kobe or Young Magic here.


Magic to me was a more impactful player for any combination of 3 of his rings than Kobe was for those 3 championship years next to Shaq. In fact as Kobe got better and was on his way to becoming truly great, he started hurting the team more by trying to prove he was the better player it seemed. So sure we can look at their level of play to receive their accolades but to me that still helps out Magic.

Magic hurt his team to a greater amount tho, his team had actually WON a championship and had wanted to build on that, thats when Magic stepped in and saw his team lose in R1. Whereas Kobe got his ego checked in time for the playoffs and fit into his role despite the loss in statistics.


2004 loss to the Pistons where instead of going back to the championship ways of letting Shaq dominate Kobe needed to prove he was the man. He basically shot his team out of the finals. This all ends with Shaq going to Miami and the Lakers being poor for 3 years without him, even missing the playoffs the following season.
That was STILL a Finals run. He **** the bed in the Finals vs the best defensive unit in league history, he disobeyed his coaches orders, but no way is that Kobe's worst showing. And no way is Magic losing to the Sixers somehow better. His entire run that year doesn't overwhelm Kobe statistically and he put up less of a fight. Really curious what stands out that year for you. Should we really punish Kobe for putting up a better fight with a FAR more injured team just because his attitude was wrong? Kobe was STILL better during that run than early Magic. #23 is still up for debate, lets keep this going.

Chronz
09-11-2015, 08:22 PM
Yes I'm serious. Boozer at 15ppg-11rpg and Big Z at 15ppg-8rpg-2.5bpg were just as good or better than the drug saddled Bulls players that Jordan had as a rookie. I'm not a Jordan or a Lebron fan so I have no reason to look at it in a biased manner towards either player. Neither Jordan nor Lebron changed their teams in as dramatic a way as Bird did as a rookie.

Bron was 18 and had Booz for 1 year. Really tough to put much significance on his peak impact there.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-11-2015, 10:22 PM
Jordan was 21 and had crap for teammates, LeBron was 18 and had crap for teammates. Bird turned 23 his rookie year, and had way more help.


Sometimes it seems you try to frame Bird in the worst light. In the past you used to tell people on PSD that Bird was 24 when he came in to the NBA. I know I pointed out a few times that Bird was 22 not 24 when he came in to the NBA. In this post you framed it by saying Bird "turned" 23 in his rookie year. Why didn't you say Lebron "turned" 19 in his rookie year? Or that Jordan "turned" 22 in his rookie year? I hated Bird so if you hate Bird I can understand the feeling but shouldn't we use the same standard for all 3 players?

mngopher35
09-11-2015, 10:30 PM
You're confusing me here.
Bad defenders CANNOT accomplish the free safety role at an elite level. Your example of Bird is a great one, he was only a great trapper during his early years and was making All-Defensive teams because of it. Once his help and recover ability declined, he was no longer that kind of player. Magic is someone I consider a high IQ player but he was NEVER considered in that same realm. Boston was a great team, so Kobe being a great matchup for them isn't as concerning a point for me. Not really sure where you're trying to go with that one, suffice it to say, Magic could have never done what Kobe did to that team defensively. Magic was the type you had to hide or risk getting obliterated by opposing speedsters, Kobe was never that guy in his prime.

My point was that Magic actually was pretty good at using his IQ and being on the weakest offensive player to make plays on defense like a prime Kobe was doing. Sure it wasn't up to the level of FS Kobe those years but I truly don't think he was that far off in just that aspect and did something Kobe never did with his stealing ability (even though the rules prevented the same type of roaming). Where they were far different in impact is as 1v1 defenders but Kobe fell of in that area by his early prime and definitely lacked effort as well (as do many as they age).

Was Magic in the same realm as Kobe on Defense? No, but he was pretty good at what you are praising a prime Kobe for doing and their impact on that end isn't affecting the game like their offense could. Offensively Kobe isn't in Magic's realm which is far more important to me since that is where they have their largest impact.




Actually good? Even if I agreed, he was NEVER All-League material.
As for not being as drastic as the accolades suggest? Well **** man, you just got done telling me how much accolades matter to you but when someone outnumbers someone else ZERO to being THE Historical leader, you got to have more to say than that. Seems rather inconsistent to me.

Woah woah woah. I said that Finals MVP's and MVP's were accolades I put stock into. As always context needs to be involved but those and DPOY are more important to me than the first team all nba, all star games, etc. Also when I mention accolades it is because I think the context behind them carry weight which would not be the case with all of those defensive teams.

So once again yes Kobe has the defensive advantage both on the court and in accolades. However, I think that not all of his accolades on that end are deserved and the difference in impact isn't enough to offset Magic being possibly the GOAT on the offensive end. I am not saying their defense was at the same level, just that neither was so good on that end it comes even close to their offensive impact. Magic was a better rebounder overall which can help negate a little bit of the defensive advantage too.


In general I agree but whatever the case may be, defense is THE difference between the 2 IMO. Kobe was a GREAT offensive player, even the most drastic of haters can admit that much, whereas Magic was NEVER a great defensive player and even his greatest fans have to admit he was NEVER All-League caliber. Hell, at his worst he was a straight up liability. Hes very lucky the best PG's werent on the teams that could punish him for that.

I agree with you but I think we value their defensive impact differently. To me neither one of these guys was going to carry a defense or even be able to drastically change how good their team's defense was. Yes Kobe was overall better on that end but the impact he had on the game defensively wasn't extremely high IMO.




Problem being the time in the game you referenced was available for only 1 player, so its a moot point. It was also so incredibly small of a sample that it makes it hard to take serious if you're trying to convey it as halfcourt efficiency. Halfcourt efficiency comes from the entire game, not just raw/1 sided stats.

Well this is only a problem if you don't agree with me about the end of games for Magic (since Kobe we have data for). Half court efficiency does come from the entire game and Magic was worlds better in that department as well. If he is statistically far better all game in efficiency and my eyes tell me he was better at the end of games when it slows down as well then I will go with it. Like I said, from what I saw one was better at running their teams offense in the halfcourt while one was more skilled within the half court. Everyone will see things differently so I probably can't change your mind but to me Magic was better at running a half court offense.



Considering it was illegal to do so, not much, doesn't change the fact that he was a guy you could leave alone whenever you had to trap. Whereas if you did that with Kobe, he'd light you up. Kobe could play in both eras equally well, whereas Magic, as an oversized PG with a ****** jumper, couldn't. And he was left open more often for my liking, IIRC, he literally missed 90% of his wide open jumpers against the Bulls in 91. Kobe would never do that, if you forced him into uncontested half court shots, he would burry you.

That is what I meant actually, on the traps. They did leave him alone at times but it usually came from somewhere else from what I remember. This is one area I may have to go back and pay attention to if I want a strong opinion though.

Kobe might translate better over eras but to me that is pretty much irrelevant. With how much the game changes (and even the athletes) over the years I think it is pretty tough to call out past players for not having an adaptable game to now. They did what they had to do in the era they played and that is where I judge them.

While Magic had plenty of shooting issues Kobe has been called out plenty for ignoring teammates late, chucking games/series away like 04 etc that would never happen to magic either. Different players with different skill sets and despite both having some flaws Magic was able to play far more efficiently as the leader on offense.




It couldn't happen a ton because of the rules in place, which makes these comparisons really hard, but even judging by their own era's, Im not seeing how one of the elite 2 way guys is below someone whos game doesn't translate as well and lacks the same impact defensively, regardless of any era.

Once again to me that translating part isn't important. I don't care if someone who played in the 80's never adjusted his game for the 2000 rule changes, he did what was working during the time he played. His level of play within that era is what I am looking at so that might give us different criteria.


I already agreed with that synopsis, what I was asking you was if you valued those years more than Magic endangering his team chemistry and missing most of the season altogether, especially considering how poorly he played in the playoffs. I dont know about you but those extra years (At a 6MOY and AS level) mean just as much as Magic missing most of the season and playing like **** in the playoffs. So either way, longevity IS in Kobes favor.


Definitely your prerogative, but you cannot deny the longevity argument favors Kobe.

Well Kobe/Shaq fued led to Kobe shooting his team out of the finals and a poor 3 year stretch after when they couldn't co-exist. I don't hold it all against Kobe but some of it is his fault and it cost his team at least the 2004 season. To me the off court issues are smaller and most players have some sort of flaws there.

Overall though I do agree Kobe still has longevity, I am just pointing out why that isn't that big of a deal when you look at how much value it actually brought.


I know what you were trying to get at, my point was that whatever decline you feel happen in Kobe's defensive game, the same happened for Magic as he aged. The only difference is that while Magic was RARELY a great defender at ANY age, Kobe was STILL drawing praise for his defense during his absolute peak. I understand he wasn't the youngster who could slow anyone down 1v1, but he was STILL an elite defender when it counted. Considering Magic's peak came when he himself was declining as a defender, Im not seeing why your point should matter much. Simply put, you can identify ANY stretch and Kobe will always be the better defender by a significant margin. The onus is then on you to prove why Magic is a better offensive player than someone who was an ELITE offensive player in his own right.

Alright this is pretty fair but we still disagree on Kobe's defensive impact if you think he was elite when it mattered. I think he could go on a couple stretches per game but otherwise looked pretty average on that end (yes, talking playoffs).





Hey if you could find me voters who admitted to being forced to wrongfully select Worthy over Magic I would care, but Magic was in fact his 2nd or 3rd best option that series.

Was it enough voters to change the vote? I am actually curious because I had not heard about the voters being forced to go Magic?

Either way when it comes to the accolades I mentioned Magic still has the advantage with his MVP's even if we dispute the FMVP. Not a huge advantage overall but it is something I thought worth mentioning to help even out the longevity advantage.



You're underselling the possibility I think. Shaq was more dominant than both the guys in question during their Finals attack IMO. I would argue that Kobe in 01 was better than anyone else who never won FMVP.

He might have had a better run but that once again gets into my point about Shaq making one better while Kareem/Magic were influencing each other more equally. I think there is a reason that young Kobe in 2001 was able to have arguably his best (one of his best for sure) post seasons individually, his name is Shaq. The attention that Shaq was drawing is something I have never seen before and it opened things up so much for Kobe. So yes he deserves credit for such a great run, but I don't think he was the best #2 player ever on a team (I believe this is what you meant, otherwise I can find tons of greats with better seasons and no FMVP).

I don't think Magic would have won FMVP over Shaq, not sure what I wrote or how it sounded. What I mostly want to get at was that individually Magic has been better on the way to his rings than Kobe (in totality).


Its a big point to make for sure, you just havent shown anything regarding their impact in relation to each other. We're not arguing Peak Shaq vs Young Kobe or Young Magic here.




Magic hurt his team to a greater amount tho, his team had actually WON a championship and had wanted to build on that, thats when Magic stepped in and saw his team lose in R1. Whereas Kobe got his ego checked in time for the playoffs and fit into his role despite the loss in statistics.

I disagree. Kobe has shot his team out of the finals while wanting to be the man (and was a bit greedy in 03 as well). Kobe has quit on his team at the end of a series. Kobe has had a fued with an all time great teammate leading to multiple poor years of play after sending him away. Both of them have had their flaws/issues but if anything I think Kobe has had more to be honest.


That was STILL a Finals run. He **** the bed in the Finals vs the best defensive unit in league history, he disobeyed his coaches orders, but no way is that Kobe's worst showing. And no way is Magic losing to the Sixers somehow better. His entire run that year doesn't overwhelm Kobe statistically and he put up less of a fight. Really curious what stands out that year for you. Should we really punish Kobe for putting up a better fight with a FAR more injured team just because his attitude was wrong? Kobe was STILL better during that run than early Magic. #23 is still up for debate, lets keep this going.

It isn't just the individual series. It is Kobe needing to be the #1 guy which started showing itself after the 3-peat IMO. This lead to not only a poor series but multiple years wasted with little talent because he couldn't get along with another teammate.

I blame both of them for those series and it is fine if you consider Magic's worse, especially since Kobe's Lakers were in the finals (although Magic's was a 3 game series only right?). What happened by the next year for Magic is he lead them to the finals winning FMVP. Kobe on the other hand got his way then couldn't reach the playoffs in 05 and couldn't make it out of the first round again until 2008 when they brought in Pau. Kobe's issues were part of what completely blew up his team and destroyed their title hopes, while Magic's issues only hampered things that season.

Lastly I wanted to go into their stats a bit since you generally seem to use them with your analysis. You seem to use/know the numbers pretty well so I won't get into exact numbers unless you want but Magic was clearly superior to Kobe when it comes to Metrics like BPM/Vorp, WS/48 and ORTG. Their PER is actually pretty close but as we know high usage can pump it up and that could help explain why Kobe closed the gap there but not in other metrics. When we look at the post season Magic still has nice advantages in those areas as well (12 pt higher ORTG, over 1.5 times the BPM during the primes). I can go into detail but I am pretty sure you either have looked into or are capable of getting an overall look at their numbers. With such strong advantages for Magic statistically is it really the longevity/defense alone that you think makes up the difference?

mngopher35
09-11-2015, 10:46 PM
If you want to just respond generally to that post instead of point by point it would be fine with me, many times I think we somewhat agreed or are arguing somewhat unimportant issues. I think the big thing is that I view Kobe's defense/longevity less highly than you do while also thinking Magic was clearly a level or two above Kobe offensively (and valuing that more).

I am curious on the FMVP voting thing though so would like to get a bit more info.

Clippersfan86
09-11-2015, 11:09 PM
Love the posts by Gopher and Chronz last few pages :). Good read guys. I definitely lean a bit more Gopher on the Kobe vs Magic debate, but nonetheless good points both ways.

FlashBolt
09-12-2015, 01:17 AM
Yes I'm serious. Boozer at 15ppg-11rpg and Big Z at 15ppg-8rpg-2.5bpg were just as good or better than the drug saddled Bulls players that Jordan had as a rookie. I'm not a Jordan or a Lebron fan so I have no reason to look at it in a biased manner towards either player. Neither Jordan nor Lebron changed their teams in as dramatic a way as Bird did as a rookie.

What does Bird have anything to do with this, though? Bird did an amazing job but he was not a better player than Jordan when Jordan was a rookie, was he? Cedric Max was better than anyone James/Jordan had by a longshot. Wooldridge wasn't a scrub at all. Boozer in his second season? I don't think that is proof of anything. But you're talking about all these numbers and don't understand how difficult it is for a player who is coming out of HS and is expected to lead a team. Even with Jordan, he said Dean Smith taught him how to play basketball. Who taught LeBron anything again? He was 18 years old who was already the face of a franchise compared to a 21 year old who had college experience under his belt. Again, 18 years old! What kind of 18 year old is the face of an NBA franchise in the history of the game?

JasonJohnHorn
09-14-2015, 01:22 PM
I wonder what Hakeem did the past few years to move himself above Magic/Bird when they were always ranked ahead of him.

I think it's a matter of people realizing how rare a talent Hakeem was. At the time, with Ewing getting most of the press because he was in NY, and Kareem and Moses being long-standing MVP's before Hakeem came in, and then D-Rob, Shaq and Zo all coming into the league, people thought Hakeem was just one of many great centers.

Now, people realize how special he was, and we've yet to see a player at that position enter the league since he left that could do what he did.

Alternately, we see guys do what Bird and Magic did. Durant, LBJ. When you see those guys fresh in your minds, it's easy to see Magic and Bird as one of many great players with that style of game.

When you realize that a guy like DMC is likely the best C in the game, and the Howard was good enough to dominate this generation, but you watch old games and see how much better Hakeem was.... you start to appreciate him more.

Also, that first ring he won....I mean.... it's not like he had Tony Parker and Manu and earlier D-Rob and late Leonard like Duncan had. And he didn't have a player like Kobe or Wade, as Shaq had (though Drexler was still an All-Star during Hakeem's second title run), so people see Hakeem as having taken a huge load and really carrying the team on his back (though I don't think that was the case).

Hakeem, though, is as good as Bird or Magic, even if he isn't as iconic outside of the game.

FlashBolt
09-14-2015, 02:48 PM
I think it's a matter of people realizing how rare a talent Hakeem was. At the time, with Ewing getting most of the press because he was in NY, and Kareem and Moses being long-standing MVP's before Hakeem came in, and then D-Rob, Shaq and Zo all coming into the league, people thought Hakeem was just one of many great centers.

Now, people realize how special he was, and we've yet to see a player at that position enter the league since he left that could do what he did.

Alternately, we see guys do what Bird and Magic did. Durant, LBJ. When you see those guys fresh in your minds, it's easy to see Magic and Bird as one of many great players with that style of game.

When you realize that a guy like DMC is likely the best C in the game, and the Howard was good enough to dominate this generation, but you watch old games and see how much better Hakeem was.... you start to appreciate him more.

Also, that first ring he won....I mean.... it's not like he had Tony Parker and Manu and earlier D-Rob and late Leonard like Duncan had. And he didn't have a player like Kobe or Wade, as Shaq had (though Drexler was still an All-Star during Hakeem's second title run), so people see Hakeem as having taken a huge load and really carrying the team on his back (though I don't think that was the case).

Hakeem, though, is as good as Bird or Magic, even if he isn't as iconic outside of the game.

Just to add to that:

1) Magic/Bird were hyped up because NBA ratings were incredibly low at that time. Great rivalry but they received the most buzz.
2) Magic/Bird had great teammates for a long period of time. Hakeem never had that luxury. Even then, we saw what LeBron went through this season and I'm starting to believe that people are realizing to a bigger extent that some guys with few rings were just as good as those with more rings under their belt.

Something that helps Hakeem's case is Tim Duncan here. Tim Duncan was basically Hakeem in terms of their versatility and we're seeing how appreciative people are of Duncan. Heck, he skyrocketed into the top five NBA players when some had him just around the top ten area.

G_S_W
09-14-2015, 03:24 PM
This all time list is one of the worst I have ever seen. If not the very worst. I don't think I've seen any with such a strong "recency" bias.

Might as well put Bron, Durant and Westbrook 1, 2, 3 and just get it over with.

Tony_Starks
09-14-2015, 03:33 PM
This all time list is one of the worst I have ever seen. If not the very worst. I don't think I've seen any with such a strong "recency" bias.

Might as well put Bron, Durant and Westbrook 1, 2, 3 and just get it over with.


Give it a year, Anthony Davis going number 9!

G_S_W
09-14-2015, 03:33 PM
As I said before, it's completely pathetic how low Magic and Bird will be on this list. No amount of logic or evidence will overcome the recency bias since most posters on this forum have never seen magic and bird play.

Bird was 29/11/7/2, 50/40/90 player for years on end in his prime. Just completely unprecedented stuff.

Magic just walked into the nba as a rook and DOMINATED from day 1, and posted 42/15/7 as a center in the nba finals. Magic was an mvp candidate from day 1 in the league, as was Bird.

Lebron found himself in the finals after 8 seasons, and basically crapped his pants.

Kobe has 5 rings, the first 3 of which were largely due to the dominance of a prime Shaq.

There is absolutely no way no how Lebron or Kobe are ahead of Magic Bird all time.


This is somewhat true about the playoffs, it definitely got better there (regular seasons he was bad due to effort). I still think he was overrated outside of his time as an elite 1v1 defender. They usually gave him a match up like rondo when he was "free safety", so while he was good at that role he wasn't as effective by that time when there was no easy match up. I think a lot of smart players who aren't necessarily great defenders can play in that role effectively (example Bird wasn't a great defender in totality but used his IQ to make some plays like this and usually got weaker offensive players). I hadn't heard that from Doc though maybe I underrate his impact a bit on that end (although Boston would be a great match up for him there).

Magic was actually good when given this type of role too though, he even lead the league in spg a couple times (sure he took gambles but so did Kobe and both had plenty work out). I am not saying Magic is equal on defense or anything but I do think the gap isn't as drastic as it could seem based on accolades. If we are considering being a good roamer on weak offensive players as great defense I think it could somewhat apply to Magic too. To me Magic was a far more efficient team leader who took what was given instead of trying to force what he wanted on the defense. Their offensive efficiency is as big of a gap as their defense and I value offensive output more especially when we aren't talking anchors.




I wasn't touting it as much as clutch play as I was trying to find the time in the game where it slows down and you have to run half court offense more. To me the end of the game is more like that where both teams value possessions a bit more. In those scenarios I just think Magic was all around better due to his style of play and being open to taking the right play. Kobe was more of a force the issue with scoring type in the half court and I think it shows later in games with his drop off.

How often was magic actually just left alone where his defender was making plays though? It really didn't happen a ton from what I remember. Sure it might be different today if his shot was lacking but it wasn't as big of an issue when he played. I am sure Magic did like to push the pace as he was also great in the open court, but when the game slowed down he was still better than Kobe on that end. Once again Kobe may have had some better skills in the half court offense, but Magic was the more impactful offensive player/leader there.



It is still advantage Kobe but those years aren't anything that makes me want the lesser player over their prime is my point. Sure he can contribute a bit during that time but we are talking of a far lesser version player (6th moy compared to top 10 all time). While those minutes do look nice I don't think they translate into many great seasons of play though is what I'm saying. A few more mpg over a large span of time isn't going to mean much to me but extra seasons of good play would. I was comparing Magic from 80-91 and Kobe from 2000-2012 as their prime. Outside of that Kobe has those first 3 years and last 3 years (only good season ended with injury).

I am saying that in the years I didn't compare I don't see enough top level play from Kobe, a few extra poor-mediocre years doesn't help longevity as much imo.





I was simply saying that peak Kobe wasn't the defensive stopper he was in his early years. It is just to point out that in those peak years you mentioned Kobe was better offensively but worse defensively. I shouldn't have added that as it seems to have just been confusing. Basically at their peak Magic was still better offensively IMO and the defensive difference wasn't quite as big (although you are correct it was still an advantage).



This is true but didn't Magic also not receive a FMVP later in his career in part to a great game 7 by Worthy? I do get your point here but he does have the accolades and I believe his level of play getting his rings was higher as well. I will get into what I mean shortly.




While it is definitely possible that Magic wouldn't win a FMVP vs. Shaq I think his level of play for his 5 rings was higher than Kobe. To me it is the difference in their level of play that allows the accolades difference to be validated. Kobe benefited greatly from Shaq and less so the other way around. You yourself have shown how much those lakers struggled when Shaq was out but not as much the other way around. I think Magic/Kareem benefited from each other much more equally (and I think Magic was the bigger influence offensively). That is an extremely big point to make if you want to look into the context of their accolades.

Magic to me was a more impactful player for any combination of 3 of his rings than Kobe was for those 3 championship years next to Shaq. In fact as Kobe got better and was on his way to becoming truly great, he started hurting the team more by trying to prove he was the better player it seemed. So sure we can look at their level of play to receive their accolades but to me that still helps out Magic.



2004 loss to the Pistons where instead of going back to the championship ways of letting Shaq dominate Kobe needed to prove he was the man. He basically shot his team out of the finals. This all ends with Shaq going to Miami and the Lakers being poor for 3 years without him, even missing the playoffs the following season.

Shammyguy3
09-14-2015, 08:31 PM
G S W

I suggest you read through the past through threads if you have the time. people have commented on the deficiencies in every player's game and based their voting off of it. Bird had a short career, and didn't live up to his regular season production a handful of times in the post-season. Magic was a one-way player that had the opportunity to play on one of the best teams ever (also similar with Bird). Guys like Hakeem and Lebron and Duncan didn't really have that, and they were absolutely dominant players on both sides of the floor and lead teams to the Finals with little around them.

FlashBolt
09-15-2015, 12:16 AM
As I said before, it's completely pathetic how low Magic and Bird will be on this list. No amount of logic or evidence will overcome the recency bias since most posters on this forum have never seen magic and bird play.

Bird was 29/11/7/2, 50/40/90 player for years on end in his prime. Just completely unprecedented stuff.

Magic just walked into the nba as a rook and DOMINATED from day 1, and posted 42/15/7 as a center in the nba finals. Magic was an mvp candidate from day 1 in the league, as was Bird.

Lebron found himself in the finals after 8 seasons, and basically crapped his pants.

Kobe has 5 rings, the first 3 of which were largely due to the dominance of a prime Shaq.

There is absolutely no way no how Lebron or Kobe are ahead of Magic Bird all time.

1) We're talking about an entire career. Bird had a short career and had more than a couple of seasons in which he wasn't "elite." Realistically, he was truly only elite for 6-8 years. In the playoffs, even less. LeBron has already surpassed him with elite seasons both on/off playoffs. He holds 1 less ring but equally the same amount of FMVP. LeBron has more MVP's and is a much better defender than Larry was. LeBron has already played more basketball than Larry.. what makes Larry a better player exactly? He beats him in most statistics and in advanced, there is no competition.
2) Magic walked into the NBA as a rookie and was paired with arguably the 2nd (some have him 1st) best player in NBA history.. Then got into a team with Worthy, Scott, Wilkes, Nixon, Cooper was a very consistent player even though no one mentions him. Team was stacked all those seasons. I think in one season, they had four players (Magic didn't) scoring over 20 PPG in the playoffs... let me know when anyone else has ever had that. And Magic didn't win jack after KAJ retired.
3) LeBron went up against an experienced Spurs team that had been ranked one of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history.. He was 22-23 at that time and had just gotten off one of the most amazing playoffs games vs the Pistons with a team that doesn't come 1/10 to what Magic's first Finals was like. Maybe you got hit in the head the past decade but guess which team had the worst record in the NBA before LeBron showed up? Cavs with a record of 17-65. Guess which team went from the best record to having the second worst record in the NBA after James left? The Cavs. Which team in the NBA went from being a top two team in the NBA and then when LeBron left, couldn't even crack the playoffs? The HEAT. So there is a pattern here: LeBron James makes a team 100000x better whereas Magic was never put into a spot in which he had to overcome that discrepancy. The years that he retired, Lakers were still in the playoffs more-so than not.

Tony_Starks
09-15-2015, 09:00 AM
As I said before, it's completely pathetic how low Magic and Bird will be on this list. No amount of logic or evidence will overcome the recency bias since most posters on this forum have never seen magic and bird play.

Bird was 29/11/7/2, 50/40/90 player for years on end in his prime. Just completely unprecedented stuff.

Magic just walked into the nba as a rook and DOMINATED from day 1, and posted 42/15/7 as a center in the nba finals. Magic was an mvp candidate from day 1 in the league, as was Bird.

Lebron found himself in the finals after 8 seasons, and basically crapped his pants.

Kobe has 5 rings, the first 3 of which were largely due to the dominance of a prime Shaq.

There is absolutely no way no how Lebron or Kobe are ahead of Magic Bird all time.

1) We're talking about an entire career. Bird had a short career and had more than a couple of seasons in which he wasn't "elite." Realistically, he was truly only elite for 6-8 years. In the playoffs, even less. LeBron has already surpassed him with elite seasons both on/off playoffs. He holds 1 less ring but equally the same amount of FMVP. LeBron has more MVP's and is a much better defender than Larry was. LeBron has already played more basketball than Larry.. what makes Larry a better player exactly? He beats him in most statistics and in advanced, there is no competition.
2) Magic walked into the NBA as a rookie and was paired with arguably the 2nd (some have him 1st) best player in NBA history.. Then got into a team with Worthy, Scott, Wilkes, Nixon, Cooper was a very consistent player even though no one mentions him. Team was stacked all those seasons. I think in one season, they had four players (Magic didn't) scoring over 20 PPG in the playoffs... let me know when anyone else has ever had that. And Magic didn't win jack after KAJ retired.
3) LeBron went up against an experienced Spurs team that had been ranked one of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history.. He was 22-23 at that time and had just gotten off one of the most amazing playoffs games vs the Pistons with a team that doesn't come 1/10 to what Magic's first Finals was like. Maybe you got hit in the head the past decade but guess which team had the worst record in the NBA before LeBron showed up? Cavs with a record of 17-65. Guess which team went from the best record to having the second worst record in the NBA after James left? The Cavs. Which team in the NBA went from being a top two team in the NBA and then when LeBron left, couldn't even crack the playoffs? The HEAT. So there is a pattern here: LeBron James makes a team 100000x better whereas Magic was never put into a spot in which he had to overcome that discrepancy. The years that he retired, Lakers were still in the playoffs more-so than not.


Nixon was traded for Scott, they never played together. Wilkes was gone by 85. And as far as Magic "not winning jack after KAJ retired" he proceeded to go to the finals after he retired with a rookie Vlade as his center, and a gimpy Worthy who would sit as the series progressed, only to lose to some guy named MJ that would dominate the next decade.

Nice try tho.....

FlashBolt
09-15-2015, 04:24 PM
Nixon was traded for Scott, they never played together. Wilkes was gone by 85. And as far as Magic "not winning jack after KAJ retired" he proceeded to go to the finals after he retired with a rookie Vlade as his center, and a gimpy Worthy who would sit as the series progressed, only to lose to some guy named MJ that would dominate the next decade.

Nice try tho.....

When did I say they were all on the same team at the same time? I was simply suggesting that those are some of the guys he played with. And he didn't win without KAJ despite him being ranked as the GOAT.. He should have taken out Jordan if he's the GOAT, huh? But let's not even entertain that.. you clearly have your dates messed up. Magic didn't take anyone to the Finals after he came back from retirement.. he was absolute garbage when he came back and they lost to the Rockets in the first round. He lost his last two Finals because 1) Kaj was no longer a force. 2) The second of his last finals, Kaj wasn't there. Divac wasn't even a rookie.. he was in his second season.. and he was also their most consistent player in the Finals that season. Worthy was going through an ankle injury that entire playoffs and sat out game 5... in which the Lakers would go on to lose.

You have your dates mixed up but nice try....

Tony_Starks
09-15-2015, 05:58 PM
Nixon was traded for Scott, they never played together. Wilkes was gone by 85. And as far as Magic "not winning jack after KAJ retired" he proceeded to go to the finals after he retired with a rookie Vlade as his center, and a gimpy Worthy who would sit as the series progressed, only to lose to some guy named MJ that would dominate the next decade.

Nice try tho.....

When did I say they were all on the same team at the same time? I was simply suggesting that those are some of the guys he played with. And he didn't win without KAJ despite him being ranked as the GOAT.. He should have taken out Jordan if he's the GOAT, huh? But let's not even entertain that.. you clearly have your dates messed up. Magic didn't take anyone to the Finals after he came back from retirement.. he was absolute garbage when he came back and they lost to the Rockets in the first round. He lost his last two Finals because 1) Kaj was no longer a force. 2) The second of his last finals, Kaj wasn't there. Divac wasn't even a rookie.. he was in his second season.. and he was also their most consistent player in the Finals that season. Worthy was going through an ankle injury that entire playoffs and sat out game 5... in which the Lakers would go on to lose.

You have your dates mixed up but nice try....


I said Magic took them to the finals after KAREEM retired in direct response to your he never won without KAJ rubbish. He took a Kareem-less squad to the Finals, thats a big deal. You expect Magic to beat MJ in his prime with no James Worthy AND later no B Scott? Right. I'm sure you gave Lebron a pass this year when Love and Kyrie went down tho right? Right!

Like I said nice try. Fact is Magic carried the Lakers as a rook with KAJ out in the biggest game of his career, and as a vet 10 years deep in the game with Kareem retired.

Give it a rest, nobody is buying your phony baloney narrative.....as usual.


Magics Finals line 18pts 8boards 12assist. Damn near a triple double with 2 hurt starters and NOBODY on the team averaging 20. Scottie Pippen averaged 20 and scored almost 30 more points than the Lakers leading scorer as a "sidekick."

But yeah I guess its Magics fault they lost,must mean he's not that great because if he was he would've still won the series regardless like Lebron.

Oh wait...

FlashBolt
09-16-2015, 02:47 AM
So now you're blaming me because you can't write correctly?

1) Divac wasn't a rookie.
2) Worthy sat just one game.
3) My narrative? I didn't even vote for LeBron! Divac+Worthy were more help than any player James had on his team in the NBA Finals the past season. Magic didn't even score 20 PPG but you try and fault his teammates for not doing so despite Worthy being their leading scorer in the Finals and Divac averaging the same amount of points as Magic?

I never said Magic wasn't great. I just said that he had an insane amount of help coming into the NBA and heading out of it as well. Great to see you ignore the obvious faults in your "argument" and then try and pinpoint the mistake on me when your writing doesn't even mention Kareem in that context.

FYI: Wilkes was gone by 85. And as far as Magic "not winning jack after KAJ retired" he proceeded to go to the finals after he retired with a rookie Vlade as his center,

In that context, you are basically stating that Magic retired -- not Kareem.

G_S_W
09-17-2015, 01:07 PM
Really dumb comments.

Magic and Bird were NOT hyped by the NBA. As a matter of fact, when Magic and Bird were playing in the nba finals, very few people were watching since the finals were on TAPE DELAY. Yeah, great job of hyping up Bird and Magic on the NBA's part. The fact of the matter is, the NBA did a horrendous job of marketing, period in that era.

On top of that, interest in the NBA during Bird and Magic's primes was quite low. It was not unusual for the lakers to have 4,000 to 5,000 empty seats in the forum in magic's prime.

The fact of the matter is, interest in the two players was enormous, witness the tv ratings for indiana st. vs mich st when Bird and Magic were in the ncaa finals, but the NBA did a very poor job of promoting these two elite players and of promoting the nba in general.

Hakeem didn't benefit from stacked teams, but he didn't have the once in a lifetime opportunity to pair with the most touted big man in the history of college basketball: Ralph Sampson, who was in face an elite big until he suffered a severe injury early in his career, and then won a pair of rings with a near prime Clyde Drexler.


Just to add to that:

1) Magic/Bird were hyped up because NBA ratings were incredibly low at that time. Great rivalry but they received the most buzz.
2) Magic/Bird had great teammates for a long period of time. Hakeem never had that luxury. Even then, we saw what LeBron went through this season and I'm starting to believe that people are realizing to a bigger extent that some guys with few rings were just as good as those with more rings under their belt.

Something that helps Hakeem's case is Tim Duncan here. Tim Duncan was basically Hakeem in terms of their versatility and we're seeing how appreciative people are of Duncan. Heck, he skyrocketed into the top five NBA players when some had him just around the top ten area.

G_S_W
09-17-2015, 01:32 PM
Are you feeling OK?

Bird had NINE CONSECUTIVE seasons where he averaged a minimum of 20+ ppg AND 9+ rpg.

Bird had ELEVEN seasons overall where he averaged 20+ ppg and 9+ rpg in the same season.

BACK TO BACK 50/40/90 seasons in 87 and 88. And he came very close in 85 and 86.

Bird was also a superior playmaker, averaging at least 5.8 apg in 10 seasons.

Bird was not a superior one on one defender, but was excellent help defender, and averaged 1.7 steals a game and nearly a block per game over the course of 13 seasons.

Bird did not have superior athleticism, and actually improved as he aged, averaging 29.9 ppg and posted 50/40/90 at the age of 31.

Bird played a reckless, balls out style of play which shouldn't count against him. Also, players like Durant, Lebron etc benefit enormously from 2 or 3 decades of trial and error improvements in sports medicine.

What's really astonishing is Bird's accuracy from 3 in an era when most coaches discounted the 3 ball. In this current era, with the 3 ball of pre-eminent importance and with players like Lebron and Harden practicing non-stop, they are unable to come anywhere close to an elite standard.

It's nice that you conveniently forget Lebron's epic choke job vs. Dallas in the finals. 17 ppg, 32% 3's, 60% from the line, 4 TOV's per game, biting his nails in timeouts looking confused, after forming and handpicking a super-team with Wade and Bosh was just a flat out joke.

Also, Lebron has no competition for MVP's. Bird had absolutely stacked competition for the MVP award.

Add to that, Kobe walked into the NBA paired with Shaq, arguably the most dominant player of all time in his prime. Duncan had a super team with Manu and Parker, and Robinson before that. Kobe and Duncan benefited from Phil Jax and Pop.

Lebron is well known for regular season dominance, but inconsistent, even embarrassing performance in the finals. You could say the same about Kobe in the finals as well.

RECENCY BIAS FTW!

Why argue, you never saw Magic or Bird play. You'll be making the case that Westbrook is superior to Magic in a year or two.


1) We're talking about an entire career. Bird had a short career and had more than a couple of seasons in which he wasn't "elite." Realistically, he was truly only elite for 6-8 years. In the playoffs, even less. LeBron has already surpassed him with elite seasons both on/off playoffs. He holds 1 less ring but equally the same amount of FMVP. LeBron has more MVP's and is a much better defender than Larry was. LeBron has already played more basketball than Larry.. what makes Larry a better player exactly? He beats him in most statistics and in advanced, there is no competition.
2) Magic walked into the NBA as a rookie and was paired with arguably the 2nd (some have him 1st) best player in NBA history.. Then got into a team with Worthy, Scott, Wilkes, Nixon, Cooper was a very consistent player even though no one mentions him. Team was stacked all those seasons. I think in one season, they had four players (Magic didn't) scoring over 20 PPG in the playoffs... let me know when anyone else has ever had that. And Magic didn't win jack after KAJ retired.
3) LeBron went up against an experienced Spurs team that had been ranked one of the greatest defensive teams in NBA history.. He was 22-23 at that time and had just gotten off one of the most amazing playoffs games vs the Pistons with a team that doesn't come 1/10 to what Magic's first Finals was like. Maybe you got hit in the head the past decade but guess which team had the worst record in the NBA before LeBron showed up? Cavs with a record of 17-65. Guess which team went from the best record to having the second worst record in the NBA after James left? The Cavs. Which team in the NBA went from being a top two team in the NBA and then when LeBron left, couldn't even crack the playoffs? The HEAT. So there is a pattern here: LeBron James makes a team 100000x better whereas Magic was never put into a spot in which he had to overcome that discrepancy. The years that he retired, Lakers were still in the playoffs more-so than not.

G_S_W
09-17-2015, 01:35 PM
When did I say they were all on the same team at the same time? I was simply suggesting that those are some of the guys he played with. And he didn't win without KAJ despite him being ranked as the GOAT.. He should have taken out Jordan if he's the GOAT, huh? But let's not even entertain that.. you clearly have your dates messed up. Magic didn't take anyone to the Finals after he came back from retirement.. he was absolute garbage when he came back and they lost to the Rockets in the first round. He lost his last two Finals because 1) Kaj was no longer a force. 2) The second of his last finals, Kaj wasn't there. Divac wasn't even a rookie.. he was in his second season.. and he was also their most consistent player in the Finals that season. Worthy was going through an ankle injury that entire playoffs and sat out game 5... in which the Lakers would go on to lose.

You have your dates mixed up but nice try....

Lebron has lost in FOUR FINALS in his absolute prime AFTER engineering a super team with Wade and Bosh.

Oh wait, Lebron lost in the finals because Wade and Bosh weren't up to par. SMH.

And if it weren't for Ray Allen, Lebron would have lost five of six.

Lebron's legacy is tarnished by losing 4 of 6 finals AFTER engineering two different BIG THREE super teams. He's lucky to have two actually, thanks to Ray Allen.

Cue: But Lebron's coaches aren't elite!!!! Waaaah!!!

G_S_W
09-17-2015, 01:39 PM
So now you're blaming me because you can't write correctly?

1) Divac wasn't a rookie.
2) Worthy sat just one game.
3) My narrative? I didn't even vote for LeBron! Divac+Worthy were more help than any player James had on his team in the NBA Finals the past season. Magic didn't even score 20 PPG but you try and fault his teammates for not doing so despite Worthy being their leading scorer in the Finals and Divac averaging the same amount of points as Magic?

I never said Magic wasn't great. I just said that he had an insane amount of help coming into the NBA and heading out of it as well. Great to see you ignore the obvious faults in your "argument" and then try and pinpoint the mistake on me when your writing doesn't even mention Kareem in that context.

FYI: Wilkes was gone by 85. And as far as Magic "not winning jack after KAJ retired" he proceeded to go to the finals after he retired with a rookie Vlade as his center,

In that context, you are basically stating that Magic retired -- not Kareem.

You can't penalize a player for having great teammates. Lebron has insisted upon having at least 3 all stars on his teams, and yet he's barely won 2 of 6 finals.

G_S_W
09-17-2015, 01:43 PM
Ok so you saying Lebron` shortcomings in the finals despite not taking into consideration the circumstances in what lead to those loses is seen as a negative light and because he lot this year you feel that he should be lowered on the list? That is very asinine and short sighted because every great player loses but not because of that player most of the time. The only one he should be accounted for was 2011 and that was it. Wilt has a 2 and 4 record in the finals too and he hasn`t lost his place .

Wilt played 48 mpg, and averaged 50 ppg and 25 rpg. Meanwhile, Lebron was *****ing and moaning to the media about playing 36 mpg. Please don't compare the two.

G_S_W
09-17-2015, 01:46 PM
Sometimes it seems you try to frame Bird in the worst light. In the past you used to tell people on PSD that Bird was 24 when he came in to the NBA. I know I pointed out a few times that Bird was 22 not 24 when he came in to the NBA. In this post you framed it by saying Bird "turned" 23 in his rookie year. Why didn't you say Lebron "turned" 19 in his rookie year? Or that Jordan "turned" 22 in his rookie year? I hated Bird so if you hate Bird I can understand the feeling but shouldn't we use the same standard for all 3 players?

Nice points. The recency bias leads to all sorts of bizarre distortions. They're just hoping you won't notice.

mngopher35
09-17-2015, 03:37 PM
Are you feeling OK?

Bird had NINE CONSECUTIVE seasons where he averaged a minimum of 20+ ppg AND 9+ rpg.

Bird had ELEVEN seasons overall where he averaged 20+ ppg and 9+ rpg in the same season.

BACK TO BACK 50/40/90 seasons in 87 and 88. And he came very close in 85 and 86.

Bird was also a superior playmaker, averaging at least 5.8 apg in 10 seasons.

Bird was not a superior one on one defender, but was excellent help defender, and averaged 1.7 steals a game and nearly a block per game over the course of 13 seasons.

Bird did not have superior athleticism, and actually improved as he aged, averaging 29.9 ppg and posted 50/40/90 at the age of 31.

Bird played a reckless, balls out style of play which shouldn't count against him. Also, players like Durant, Lebron etc benefit enormously from 2 or 3 decades of trial and error improvements in sports medicine.

What's really astonishing is Bird's accuracy from 3 in an era when most coaches discounted the 3 ball. In this current era, with the 3 ball of pre-eminent importance and with players like Lebron and Harden practicing non-stop, they are unable to come anywhere close to an elite standard.

A lot of what you are saying is true but how much weight does it really hold when compared to other greats? You use Lebron as an example later and he has ELEVEN consecutive seasons of 25+, 6+, and 6+ on slightly better efficiency than Bird had for those 11 seasons you mentioned (this at a slower pace). I mean if we want to look at those basic stats Lebron's AVERAGE over 10 post seasons is 28/6.7/8.8. Those are better than the regular season stats we were just raving over for Bird.

The same way Lebron/Durant benefit from better sports medicine, so does the entire league now. Everyone is on a level playing field within their eras.

Bird was certainly ahead of his time and a better 3 pt shooter than Lebron, true. Lebron was still able to score more efficiently overall despite having less shooting skills than Bird (mainly due to athleticism gap).




It's nice that you conveniently forget Lebron's epic choke job vs. Dallas in the finals. 17 ppg, 32% 3's, 60% from the line, 4 TOV's per game, biting his nails in timeouts looking confused, after forming and handpicking a super-team with Wade and Bosh was just a flat out joke.

Also, Lebron has no competition for MVP's. Bird had absolutely stacked competition for the MVP award.

Add to that, Kobe walked into the NBA paired with Shaq, arguably the most dominant player of all time in his prime. Duncan had a super team with Manu and Parker, and Robinson before that. Kobe and Duncan benefited from Phil Jax and Pop.

Lebron is well known for regular season dominance, but inconsistent, even embarrassing performance in the finals. You could say the same about Kobe in the finals as well.

RECENCY BIAS FTW!

Why argue, you never saw Magic or Bird play. You'll be making the case that Westbrook is superior to Magic in a year or two.

Sure Lebron has the 11 choke job which was horrible, but Bird underacheived in the playoffs as well. In 82 vs the 76ers he put up 18/7/14 on 41% shooting. Now 2011 was bad at a whole different level so I am not trying to simply downgrade the Bird performance to that same showing but this was coming off a championship run and Bird didn't step up (whereas that heat team was starting bibby/anthony and Wade/Lebron hadn't quite learned to co-exist yet). While Lebrons performance was worse some of the stats you use actually paint Bird in a similar/worse light here. (Then you have the 1988 ecf which was actually worse but is a little more forgiving due to the bone spurs. Still it is another year of poor playoff play ending their seasons)

Either way it was one season for both players which shouldn't discount all their other years. The problem for Bird is that he was a 20/6/13 type of player his first four post seasons which is a level below the elite tier we think at this all time great conversation. Then he wasn't the same after 88 so his last few runs aren't that impressive either. I covered this more in depth in a recent thread but when you already have less longevity than others on the list you can't afford 6 post-seasons of non-elite (like best of the best) level play. At his peak Bird was unbelievable, we just didn't get to see it for a long enough time due to many factors (playing style, recklesssness (on court good/off court bad, era, health etc).


Lebron has lost in FOUR FINALS in his absolute prime AFTER engineering a super team with Wade and Bosh.

Oh wait, Lebron lost in the finals because Wade and Bosh weren't up to par. SMH.

And if it weren't for Ray Allen, Lebron would have lost five of six.

Lebron's legacy is tarnished by losing 4 of 6 finals AFTER engineering two different BIG THREE super teams. He's lucky to have two actually, thanks to Ray Allen.

Cue: But Lebron's coaches aren't elite!!!! Waaaah!!!

Lebron has lost in the finals many times, that is true. I hope you understand that despite joining Miami for 4 years Lebron hasn't seen the same type of team Support Bird had. Even the last years in Miami it was clear Wade was declining and the team as a whole was flawed (too many overlapping skills while not having elite defensive anchor, or size/rebounding all of which Lebron was able to help cover). Still a great team that should have won championships, and they did at a 50% rate which is pretty high even though shorter sample.

For example over the last two times Lebron has made the finals his averages are 32.4ppg, 6.64 apg, 10.83 rpg. Now just like when you mentioned them, the basic stats don't tell the whole story but I won't hold losses against a player when they were playing great individually but didn't have the same support others have had. Bird won his first ring averaging 15/15/7 in the finals which is clearly lesser level than Lebrons most recent performances, but luckily for him he simply didn't need to do more because his team was so great.

Going into the series this year many were thinking sweep with banged up Kyrie and no Love yet Lebron played so well that his team won 2 games and he even got some votes for FMVP due to his personal play. He wasn't perfect which is why they could only steal a couple, but he was doing something we basically haven't seen before in the finals (leading pts/ast/reb). Then you have 2007 when he carried a lesser cavs team past the pistons as a 3rd year player. Sure they lost the finals to the far superior team but you again are going to hold having a poor cast against him when individually he had such a good run (that game 5 is consistently in top 10 playoff performance articles)? I have never heard anyone try and drop Wilt or West due to having finals losses on their resume but all of a sudden it is a big deal and only for one guy. It is far better to push your team to the finals and lose than stink it up in an earlier round and lose.

G_S_W
09-17-2015, 08:20 PM
Some fair points, mngopher.

Having said that, while Bird and Magic had stacked, historically great teams, they also had to get past stacked, historically great teams to win their championships.

The lakers and celtics in their primes had appallingly talented teams, by any historical standard, and to win a single chip in those circumstances was an extraordinary accomplishment. For the Lake Show to win 5, twice against the C's and for the C's to take one against the Lakers was equally impressive.

The Sixers' title in that same period was also an extraordinary accomplishment. I thought Erving's sixers were stacked prior to acquiring Malone, and the Sixers vs. Celtics both regular and postseason were wars in their own right even before one or the other made it to the NBA finals.

Also, Bird and Magic had to contend with a rising young Phenom named Michael Jordan as well, so there was that.

I find it interesting that the majority of posters in this thread, damn near all of them, want to knock Bird and Magic down a few pegs for having stacked rosters.

OTOH, they receive NO CREDIT for being the undisputed alpha on teams with multiple HOFer's.

Nor do they receive credit for winning chips against other teams with multiple HOFers not only in the finals, but having to get past teams in their own conference with multiple HOFers.

Meanwhile you have goofballs and idiots claiming that Olajuwon had no help when in fact he played from day 1 with perhaps the most heralded big man in the history of college basketball (ralph sampson), who is also a HOFer, and then with a near peak Clyde Drexler.

Duncan supposedly had weaker support, but had Tony Parker, Manu and David Robinson, among others, along with Pop and one of the best front offices in the history of the game.

Lebron actually had the luxury of colluding with multiple all NBA players while still a Cav, and then sinking that ship and abandoning it at the very same time. Strangely, he was barely able to win twice in 4 seasons, thanks in large part to a last second shot by Ray Allen. Without Ray Ray, Lebron would have a single chip against 5 finals losses, with one of the most embarrassing finals performances in nba history against Dallas.

Certainly, there is a large element of subjectivity in these lists, and I do think that with the benefit of a) modern sports medicine and b) something as simple as limited minutes for older players, contemporary players will almost always benefit in legacy rankings due to their longevity.

That's why I think it's important to give a greater emphasis to a "peak ten seasons" analysis, to account for the greater minutes played (leading to greater wear and tear), and therefore reduced longevity of players in previous era's.

While Lebron's accomplishments are truly elite, the way he went about creating this legacy has often been embarrassing.

1. he gave up on his own team and colluded with players from other teams to form a super team.

2. he blew up his first "super team" because it wasn't super enough.

3. he threw his own coach under the bus on both "super teams" on both occasions. First of all, by complaining that he was gassed playing 36 minutes a game in Mia, then declaring himself the de facto coach on CLE Pt2.

4. Lebron is no doubt a freak and has a superior work ethic. Having said that, he's a snake in the grass, and despite his machiavellian streak, has a legacy where he has barely been able to eke out two titles, the second by the skin of his teeth.

This is not to say that Bird or Magic were saints. They obviously weren't. But their loyalty to their teams was never in question.

This is a subjective criteria, but I value HOW a player goes about accomplishing certain benchmarks, not just WHETHER a player achieves them.

Durant is sketchy too. Dude won't even take shots at the buzzer to try to preserve his FG%.

This is a different era. The players these days consider themselves to be brands and future members of the billionaire boys club, whereas in the past, regardless of their behavior off court, were fiercely loyal to their teams, and would stop at nothing to win a chip.

Bird and Magic were alpha's with a kill switch. Lebron and Durant are working hard to create brands so they can become billionaires marketing themselves in China.

Today's generation of superstars is talented, but too vain to get their hands dirty or sully their stats.

G_S_W
09-17-2015, 08:34 PM
Maybe this is where we differ the most but for me the difference in offensive impact is substantial here and I value offense more than defense (especially with wings). I also think Kobe has been all around overrated on the defensive end for much of his career. I think elite defensive Kobe ended before he hit that peak run you were talking about. Capable of great stretches but overall lacking IMO.

So while Kobe was clearly the better defender I think that the gap isn't much bigger than the offensive gap between them (especially factoring in offensive value is more important than defense from non bigs/anchors).




This would make the second statement about Kobe I disagree with from you. I think Magic makes players around him better and was better in the half court than Kobe. Kobe had a better one on one game in the half court and especially mid-range/post but overall I think his teams tended to falter later in games (as did his own numbers) where as Magic was one of the better offensive managers/playmakers out there. Kobe might have had better half court skills but I don't think he turned that into a better impact in the half court.

On top of that I think that the longevity part isn't quite as big as people believe. His first 3 years and last two years were pretty bad overall and nothing that would really help a legacy. That is 7000 minutes of his career playing at a very low level that won't really add much value despite being "longevity". Sure he does have 7000+ minutes still on him which is the equivalent of a few seasons but it isn't as drastic as it looks (especially since there were a couple years he couldn't finish due to injury).



I don't think it was more impressive but to each their own as it was probably pretty close (that definitely wasn't great defensive Kobe as I'm sure you know). I will say that if we look at the best 12 years of Magic vs. the best 13 years of Kobe (both had 12 playoff runs in the span) I think Magic was the better, more accomplished player (FMVP/MVP advantage which is big for me accolades wise, also better statistically). Outside of those 13 years I don't think Kobe is giving much more to the point where I would take the lesser player for the added longevity (1997-1999 and 2013-2015 is the Kobe you get and it just isn't adding tons of value).

Kobe should never be ranked in the top 7.

First of all, his past 3 seasons have been a complete disaster. The Lakers have done nothing and Kobe has barely been on the court.

Second, he's been the second option during his first three titles, a distant second at that to Shaq. He's been gifted the most dominant big since Kareem from day 1, an extraordinary luxury. Unlike Magic, Kobe could never understand that gift and was constantly attempting in complete vain, to usurp the title of first option from shaq whenever possible.

Magic by comparison, made it his first priority to feed his legendary big, as well as all of his other teammates rather than attempting to hoard shot attempts for himself.

Magic made his teammates better, was a constant source of encouragement, whereas Kobe enraged teammates and his coaching staff with his selfishness.

Certainly, Kobe was the no. 1 option during his last two titles, but was shooting with embarrassing inefficiency in both title runs.

The polar opposite mentalities of Magic and Kobe, both Laker greats is highly instructive. Kobe won in spite of himself. Magic because he was his best self.

G_S_W
09-17-2015, 08:41 PM
Also, I agree with mngopher that offensive production is far and away the more valuable commodity and more beneficial to a team's wins and playoff potential than defensive ability.

This is why Steph Curry, an average defender, is league MVP, and why Harden, an embarrassingly lazy defender, was a consensus no. 2 mvp candidate.

Furthermore, many if not most superstars with strong reputations on the defensive end, often go for long "siestas" on the defensive end for many, many games.

For non superstar defenders, their impact is often quite limited. The game and the rules are tilted very heavily in favor of protecting scorers. In addition to that, superstar calls limit their impact even further.

The league wants it's superstars to remain in the game. The entire structure of the nba favors offensive superstars and production.

Bill Russell is the only defensive specialist in most top 10 rankings (perhaps top 100 on PSD). And this was in an era when goal tending was defined very differently, allowing Wilt and Russell far more lee way in their ability to protect the rim.

mngopher35
09-18-2015, 01:24 AM
Some fair points, mngopher.

Having said that, while Bird and Magic had stacked, historically great teams, they also had to get past stacked, historically great teams to win their championships.

The lakers and celtics in their primes had appallingly talented teams, by any historical standard, and to win a single chip in those circumstances was an extraordinary accomplishment. For the Lake Show to win 5, twice against the C's and for the C's to take one against the Lakers was equally impressive.

The Sixers' title in that same period was also an extraordinary accomplishment. I thought Erving's sixers were stacked prior to acquiring Malone, and the Sixers vs. Celtics both regular and postseason were wars in their own right even before one or the other made it to the NBA finals.

Also, Bird and Magic had to contend with a rising young Phenom named Michael Jordan as well, so there was that.

I find it interesting that the majority of posters in this thread, damn near all of them, want to knock Bird and Magic down a few pegs for having stacked rosters.

OTOH, they receive NO CREDIT for being the undisputed alpha on teams with multiple HOFer's.

Nor do they receive credit for winning chips against other teams with multiple HOFers not only in the finals, but having to get past teams in their own conference with multiple HOFers.

Meanwhile you have goofballs and idiots claiming that Olajuwon had no help when in fact he played from day 1 with perhaps the most heralded big man in the history of college basketball (ralph sampson), who is also a HOFer, and then with a near peak Clyde Drexler.

Duncan supposedly had weaker support, but had Tony Parker, Manu and David Robinson, among others, along with Pop and one of the best front offices in the history of the game.

Lebron actually had the luxury of colluding with multiple all NBA players while still a Cav, and then sinking that ship and abandoning it at the very same time. Strangely, he was barely able to win twice in 4 seasons, thanks in large part to a last second shot by Ray Allen. Without Ray Ray, Lebron would have a single chip against 5 finals losses, with one of the most embarrassing finals performances in nba history against Dallas.

Certainly, there is a large element of subjectivity in these lists, and I do think that with the benefit of a) modern sports medicine and b) something as simple as limited minutes for older players, contemporary players will almost always benefit in legacy rankings due to their longevity.

That's why I think it's important to give a greater emphasis to a "peak ten seasons" analysis, to account for the greater minutes played (leading to greater wear and tear), and therefore reduced longevity of players in previous era's.

While Lebron's accomplishments are truly elite, the way he went about creating this legacy has often been embarrassing.

1. he gave up on his own team and colluded with players from other teams to form a super team.

2. he blew up his first "super team" because it wasn't super enough.

3. he threw his own coach under the bus on both "super teams" on both occasions. First of all, by complaining that he was gassed playing 36 minutes a game in Mia, then declaring himself the de facto coach on CLE Pt2.

4. Lebron is no doubt a freak and has a superior work ethic. Having said that, he's a snake in the grass, and despite his machiavellian streak, has a legacy where he has barely been able to eke out two titles, the second by the skin of his teeth.

This is not to say that Bird or Magic were saints. They obviously weren't. But their loyalty to their teams was never in question.

This is a subjective criteria, but I value HOW a player goes about accomplishing certain benchmarks, not just WHETHER a player achieves them.

Durant is sketchy too. Dude won't even take shots at the buzzer to try to preserve his FG%.

This is a different era. The players these days consider themselves to be brands and future members of the billionaire boys club, whereas in the past, regardless of their behavior off court, were fiercely loyal to their teams, and would stop at nothing to win a chip.

Bird and Magic were alpha's with a kill switch. Lebron and Durant are working hard to create brands so they can become billionaires marketing themselves in China.

Today's generation of superstars is talented, but too vain to get their hands dirty or sully their stats.

There is some I agree with and some I don't throughout the post. I think that it is definitely fair to point out that while they had great teams it wasn't a walk in the park. Kobe/Duncan have also had plenty of help throughout their career no argument there.

Hakeem I think was different. You use sampson but you have to know that is ridiculous to compare what Hakeem got from Sampson to those all time great teams. None of Hakeem's teams were as good as the Celtics/Lakers casts and it wasn't very close. Now if you want to point out he wasn't beating MJ's bulls etc. that is fair but lets not make those rocket teams out to be anything more than good.

Same can be said for Lebron outside of his time in Miami (and likely more good teams moving forward with who they have now). Cleveland surrounding him with Big Z and Mo williams just isn't enough over a 7 year span to say they really tried to improve the team. An all time great from this era, Kobe, was demanding a trade after just a couple seasons of poor teammates (after being gifted the most dominant center from the start).
I know "the decision" will always be big to some but it really wasn't to me. Lebron wanted a real good team for the first time in his career and the best option on the market was in Miami with a close friend. In hindsight it was clearly the right path for him and quite possibly even Cleveland as well (they now have an actual championship type team around him).

You keep harping on 2 rings but continue to ignore that as a reason he might have left Cleveland, no support. Of course if he spends 7 years with very little help he won't be having team success, that's likely why he left. You seem to have wanted him to stay with a bad team just so you could point out he has 0 rings. Once again 2 rings on the heat is a 50% championship rate even though there was obvious decline and team flaws. Bird spent 12 years with Mchale/Parish and won 3 times for a 25% championship rate. There is tons of context left out but that is exactly what you are doing in your analysis.

I agree that Durant not shooting up half courters due to efficiency is a bit lame but that is far from huge in his overall legacy. He really isn't in this type of discussion yet anyways though.

This is definitely a different era but you seem intent on bringing down players now due to the changes over time instead of their actual on court play which is far more important IMO.

FlashBolt
09-18-2015, 02:41 PM
Lebron has lost in FOUR FINALS in his absolute prime AFTER engineering a super team with Wade and Bosh.

Oh wait, Lebron lost in the finals because Wade and Bosh weren't up to par. SMH.

And if it weren't for Ray Allen, Lebron would have lost five of six.

Lebron's legacy is tarnished by losing 4 of 6 finals AFTER engineering two different BIG THREE super teams. He's lucky to have two actually, thanks to Ray Allen.

Cue: But Lebron's coaches aren't elite!!!! Waaaah!!!


Are you feeling OK?

Bird had NINE CONSECUTIVE seasons where he averaged a minimum of 20+ ppg AND 9+ rpg.

Bird had ELEVEN seasons overall where he averaged 20+ ppg and 9+ rpg in the same season.

BACK TO BACK 50/40/90 seasons in 87 and 88. And he came very close in 85 and 86.

Bird was also a superior playmaker, averaging at least 5.8 apg in 10 seasons.

Bird was not a superior one on one defender, but was excellent help defender, and averaged 1.7 steals a game and nearly a block per game over the course of 13 seasons.

Bird did not have superior athleticism, and actually improved as he aged, averaging 29.9 ppg and posted 50/40/90 at the age of 31.

Bird played a reckless, balls out style of play which shouldn't count against him. Also, players like Durant, Lebron etc benefit enormously from 2 or 3 decades of trial and error improvements in sports medicine.

What's really astonishing is Bird's accuracy from 3 in an era when most coaches discounted the 3 ball. In this current era, with the 3 ball of pre-eminent importance and with players like Lebron and Harden practicing non-stop, they are unable to come anywhere close to an elite standard.

It's nice that you conveniently forget Lebron's epic choke job vs. Dallas in the finals. 17 ppg, 32% 3's, 60% from the line, 4 TOV's per game, biting his nails in timeouts looking confused, after forming and handpicking a super-team with Wade and Bosh was just a flat out joke.

Also, Lebron has no competition for MVP's. Bird had absolutely stacked competition for the MVP award.

Add to that, Kobe walked into the NBA paired with Shaq, arguably the most dominant player of all time in his prime. Duncan had a super team with Manu and Parker, and Robinson before that. Kobe and Duncan benefited from Phil Jax and Pop.

Lebron is well known for regular season dominance, but inconsistent, even embarrassing performance in the finals. You could say the same about Kobe in the finals as well.

RECENCY BIAS FTW!

Why argue, you never saw Magic or Bird play. You'll be making the case that Westbrook is superior to Magic in a year or two.

So good seasons = elite seasons? Learn to read. Why would I mention LeBron failing in the Dallas Finals when my post was about Larry Bird? Okay, here's a stat for you: 1991 NBA Finals, Larry Bird scores 15 PPG on 42% shooting. How convenient that you left that out, huh? I've always said LeBron's worst hit was that Dallas Finals. It was embarrassing and disgraceful for an NBA legend. But Larry Bird is guilty of having terrible playoff series/games as well. Again, good seasons =/= elite seasons. Larry Bird at his peak was not better than LeBron at his peak.. prove it instead of just claiming no one watched it as your sole argument. LeBron had no competition for MVP's? Look at what he did for his team: led his team 2x with the best regular season record with a completely average team, led his team to a 27 game winning streak, posted record PER/WS48 numbers for a SF (Jordan's peak level), posting insane efficiency of 26 PPG on 56% shooting with 7 rebounds/7 assists). There was no "competition" because he was just so much better than everyone else outside of KD at that time. Just like how Jordan had no competition... because he was just 10x better than anyone else. Understand? Funny you bring up Kobe being with Shaq and Duncan being with Robinson... Here's why:

Who won the Finals MVP when Larry Bird played horribly in the 81 Finals? Maxwell. Has Duncan/Kobe ever played that bad in the NBA Finals while having an elite regular season?

Who played with an elite frontcourt in McHale/Parish for much of his entire career and those players were at their prime throughout the way? Larry Bird.

Who got outplayed by James Worthy in the 1985 NBA Finals by a landslide and despite Parish/McHale playing at a higher level, still couldn't win? Larry Bird.

Who got outplayed by James Worthy AGAIN in the 1987 NBA Finals and shot just 36% from the field in the last three games of the NBA Finals (in which Celtics could have easily won if Bird played a tad better). Guess who choked up game 4 with a wide open shot to win the game? Larry the "Clutch" Bird.

Who played like a complete bum in the 1983 playoffs 2nd round vs the Bucks? Larry Bird averaged 16 PPG that series.. and was outplayed by a lesser SF in Johnson.

Who played like a complete bum again in the 1988 NBA Playoffs against the Pistons in which they had HCA? Bird played 46 min averaging 20/12/6 while shooting 35% from the field in that series. Kevin McHale carried the Celtics that series to a 2-2 tie but guess what happens:

Game 5: Larry shoots 36% from the field. Celtics lose by 6. Guess who misses again for the win? Mr. Larry Bird.
Game 6: Even with McHale going off for 33 points/11 rebounds, Celtics lose... Reason? Parish couldn't play. Second reason? Mr. Larry Bird goes off shooting 23% from the field. Celtics lose by five points. 100% safe to say Larry Bird shot them out of the game.

1991 NBA Playoffs. Once again, Celtics with HCA going against the Pistons. The Great Larry Bird shoots 36% for the series... again. Bird's Celtics up 2-1 heading to Detroit.

Game 4: McHale carried them but Celtics end up losing by 7 points because the Great Larry Bird shoots 40% from the field and scores only 13 points.

Game 5: Series is tied.. Okay, heading back to TD with HCA. Reggie Lewis had the best game of his career going for 30/11/5. Celtics lose by 5. Why? The Great Larry Bird shoots 39% scoring only 16 points.

Game 6: McHale carries the Celtics again the entire game. Heading to OT, The Great Larry Bird fails to live up to his "clutch" name and scores 12 points on 29 FG% from the field.

These numbers seem low and you would think he played 20 minutes because of his back injuries... but he played 41 minutes per game (the second most on his team).

Who led his team to win 61 regular season games and choked away the last two playoff games and was outplayed by Dr. J?

1992 NBA ECSF, Larry doesn't play the first round vs the Pacers. No problem, his team handily sweeps the Pacers. Semifinals, Celtics are up 2-1 (Larry doesn't play any of these three games). Who loses despite having HCA? The Celtics. Bird comes back and Celtics lose three games/wins one game (record of 1-3). Game 4, when Bird could have won the game for his team, he goes for 20% from the field scoring 2 points. Again, Celtics lose the next three out of four games with HCA.

Want more or is this enough for you? Larry Bird was great when he was great. He was also REALLY bad when he was supposed to be really great. Now, read the above and then tell me how LeBron would be portrayed if he played like that. LeBron averaged 18/7/8 on 48% shooting against the Mavericks in the 2011 NBA Finals yet that's the only thing we can blame him for. Let's talk about The Great Larry Bird some more, shall we? LeBron has had some embarrassing NBA Finals? 2007 was the WORST supporting cast for an NBA Finals. Blaming LeBron for the 2014/2015 NBA Finals huh? Very charming. Please let me know how Bird would have beaten that Spurs team and GSW with that squad.. A Wade that was outplayed by Manu Gino, a Bosh that was outplayed by Tim Duncan. 2015 NBA Finals, dragged a Delly/J.R. Smith/Shump (players that no one cared or wanted) to a starting role and as his 2nd/3rd/4th options. Anymore questions?


Really dumb comments.

Magic and Bird were NOT hyped by the NBA. As a matter of fact, when Magic and Bird were playing in the nba finals, very few people were watching since the finals were on TAPE DELAY. Yeah, great job of hyping up Bird and Magic on the NBA's part. The fact of the matter is, the NBA did a horrendous job of marketing, period in that era.

On top of that, interest in the NBA during Bird and Magic's primes was quite low. It was not unusual for the lakers to have 4,000 to 5,000 empty seats in the forum in magic's prime.

The fact of the matter is, interest in the two players was enormous, witness the tv ratings for indiana st. vs mich st when Bird and Magic were in the ncaa finals, but the NBA did a very poor job of promoting these two elite players and of promoting the nba in general.

Hakeem didn't benefit from stacked teams, but he didn't have the once in a lifetime opportunity to pair with the most touted big man in the history of college basketball: Ralph Sampson, who was in face an elite big until he suffered a severe injury early in his career, and then won a pair of rings with a near prime Clyde Drexler.


There's a documentary about it... and they stated that Bird came in at the right time because people saw African-Americans as the dominating players of the game. When Bird came along, it gave whites a reason to watch because a white guy was dominating the black guys except Magic Johnson. NBA (which is a business first off) marketed the hell out of Magic vs Bird because it drew ratings. They took it to another level when they marketed MJ via Phil Knight being a great friend of David Stern. They both benefited off MJ's insane success. Wrong? LOL, it's on the damn documentary...

FlashBolt
09-18-2015, 02:55 PM
Just to add to my previous post, seriously, read all those things about Bird and then tell me what happens when you change that name to "LeBron James" in this day and age. He would be MURDERED by the media. Hell, he plays at an elite level and media still finds a way to crucify him for no apparent reason. Yet, Bird gets this "clutch" name labeled onto him as if he wasn't an absolute disappointment in many series/games. Yeah, GSW mentions Kobe/Duncan having great teammates. I won't deny that at all. But LeBron never had "great" teammates for the majority of his career. He had an elite Wade for one season and then injuries plagued his career. He had a Bosh who has been exposed for just being a good player (not elite, if you want to go into this, I'll give you ten plus series in which he was destroyed by opposing PF/C), he averaged FIVE REBOUNDS despite playing 36 minutes vs the Spurs. FIVE REBOUNDS????). Last season with the Cavs, I want to label them as a great supporting cast but what was their record with LeBron out again? You tell me. How many games would they win if it was LeBron who was out and Irving who was healthy in the playoffs? They would have lost to the Bulls handily. They were just a very good team but we all saw how empty they were in the Finals.

Next: Let's talk about how great that Heat team was.. the same Heat team that everyone said LeBron stacked but somehow, they can't make the NBA playoffs last season without LeBron! The same Eastern Conference that all these crybabies say LeBron plays in because is weak, yet his previously stacked Miami Heat team doesn't even crack the playoffs? Let's talk about how LeBron comes into the league with the second worst record in NBA at the time with the Cavs and leads them to the most wins in a seven year period and the most playoff wins in their entire NBA history in that same period. Or how the Cavs led the league in wins for two seasons... or how the Cavs then suffered the worst wins to loss after a season and missed the playoffs for four seasons after LeBron left.. and then make it to the NBA Finals after LeBron comes back? You see this pattern? And everyone knows this... including Chris Webber.

http://l3.yimg.com/bt/api/res/1.2/ee9t0FKUauMP41qSjEWGHA--/YXBwaWQ9eW5ld3NfbGVnbztxPTg1O3c9NjMw/http://media.zenfs.com/en/blogs/sptusnbaexperts/Straightforward-analysis.-Screencap-via-NBA-TV.jpg

Any questions GSW?

FlashBolt
09-18-2015, 03:11 PM
You also want to mention Kobe as if Kobe was a trashcan player.

He was AMAZING those two rings he won as a 1st option. Not going to deny this but he also got plenty of help from Pau Gasol. But since when was Pau Gasol better than McHale/Parish? Barkley played against some of the greatest players in the game. He says the best player he played against was McHale. Yes, he played with Shaq but you act as if he was a liability... Kobe+Shaq won those rings. The disrespect Kobe gets is unreal.

Kobe's teammates in 2004-2006 actually ranked as low as LeBron's Cavs teammates in 2004-2008. They were BAD. I don't blame him for not winning with that team but what I always blame him for is not making the best out of it. You always got the feeling that Kobe thought of them as disposables -- which we have began to see.

I also want you to name me a top ten player who suffers a drop in PER/WS48 such as Bird does comes playoff time. His numbers across the board DROPS. Why? Worse than Kobe's and not even close to LeBron's.

Then you mention Tim Duncan..

Okay, Spurs success started with Tim Duncan and is still continuing with Tim Duncan. Besides Pop (who is the GOAT coach), there is a GOAT PF who has been the defensive anchor for 18+ seasons. He's still their defensive anchor today. His advanced numbers are consistent in the playoffs as well.. unlike Mr. Larry Bird. He also has five rings. He also is the guy who Shaq looks at as his fiercest rival. Yes, Tim has had great teammates but none of that works without Tim being Tim.

FlashBolt
09-18-2015, 03:59 PM
Some fair points, mngopher.

Having said that, while Bird and Magic had stacked, historically great teams, they also had to get past stacked, historically great teams to win their championships.

The lakers and celtics in their primes had appallingly talented teams, by any historical standard, and to win a single chip in those circumstances was an extraordinary accomplishment. For the Lake Show to win 5, twice against the C's and for the C's to take one against the Lakers was equally impressive.

The Sixers' title in that same period was also an extraordinary accomplishment. I thought Erving's sixers were stacked prior to acquiring Malone, and the Sixers vs. Celtics both regular and postseason were wars in their own right even before one or the other made it to the NBA finals.

Also, Bird and Magic had to contend with a rising young Phenom named Michael Jordan as well, so there was that.

I find it interesting that the majority of posters in this thread, damn near all of them, want to knock Bird and Magic down a few pegs for having stacked rosters.

OTOH, they receive NO CREDIT for being the undisputed alpha on teams with multiple HOFer's.

Nor do they receive credit for winning chips against other teams with multiple HOFers not only in the finals, but having to get past teams in their own conference with multiple HOFers.

Meanwhile you have goofballs and idiots claiming that Olajuwon had no help when in fact he played from day 1 with perhaps the most heralded big man in the history of college basketball (ralph sampson), who is also a HOFer, and then with a near peak Clyde Drexler.

Duncan supposedly had weaker support, but had Tony Parker, Manu and David Robinson, among others, along with Pop and one of the best front offices in the history of the game.

Lebron actually had the luxury of colluding with multiple all NBA players while still a Cav, and then sinking that ship and abandoning it at the very same time. Strangely, he was barely able to win twice in 4 seasons, thanks in large part to a last second shot by Ray Allen. Without Ray Ray, Lebron would have a single chip against 5 finals losses, with one of the most embarrassing finals performances in nba history against Dallas.

Certainly, there is a large element of subjectivity in these lists, and I do think that with the benefit of a) modern sports medicine and b) something as simple as limited minutes for older players, contemporary players will almost always benefit in legacy rankings due to their longevity.

That's why I think it's important to give a greater emphasis to a "peak ten seasons" analysis, to account for the greater minutes played (leading to greater wear and tear), and therefore reduced longevity of players in previous era's.

While Lebron's accomplishments are truly elite, the way he went about creating this legacy has often been embarrassing.

1. he gave up on his own team and colluded with players from other teams to form a super team.

2. he blew up his first "super team" because it wasn't super enough.

3. he threw his own coach under the bus on both "super teams" on both occasions. First of all, by complaining that he was gassed playing 36 minutes a game in Mia, then declaring himself the de facto coach on CLE Pt2.

4. Lebron is no doubt a freak and has a superior work ethic. Having said that, he's a snake in the grass, and despite his machiavellian streak, has a legacy where he has barely been able to eke out two titles, the second by the skin of his teeth.

This is not to say that Bird or Magic were saints. They obviously weren't. But their loyalty to their teams was never in question.

This is a subjective criteria, but I value HOW a player goes about accomplishing certain benchmarks, not just WHETHER a player achieves them.

Durant is sketchy too. Dude won't even take shots at the buzzer to try to preserve his FG%.

This is a different era. The players these days consider themselves to be brands and future members of the billionaire boys club, whereas in the past, regardless of their behavior off court, were fiercely loyal to their teams, and would stop at nothing to win a chip.

Bird and Magic were alpha's with a kill switch. Lebron and Durant are working hard to create brands so they can become billionaires marketing themselves in China.

Today's generation of superstars is talented, but too vain to get their hands dirty or sully their stats.

Here is what's wrong with your incredibly biased post. No one here is DISCREDITING Bird. But the fact is there that LeBron has done more than Bird has in this game.

1) Bird/Magic had to get past stacked teams but historically, they were not even close to their respective team. Don't try and make it a team vs team comparison.. besides the Celtics/Lakers, no one else came close until the Pistons came along.
2) I like how you knock LeBron for losing in the Finals with lesser teams but applaud Magic/Bird for winning with greater teams. Do you see how ironic that is? What kind of logic are you using here? How many rings would LeBron win with KAJ/Worthy/Scott in a league in which he would have outmuscled and athletically, destroyed everyone? GIVE ME A BREAK. Magic would have to turn 360 degrees just to see where the hell Steph Curry and Westbrook are. John Wall would blow past Magic. That PG era was WEAK compared to now in a league standpoint. As great as Magic was offensively, please tell me how he would stop Steph Curry from launching rocket launchers 30 feet out. Answer: he wouldn't bother trying.
3) Don't even compare Duncan's teammates to Magic/Bird... David Robinson was on his last legs and no one would ever put Parker/Gino in the same breath as KAJ, Worthy, McHale, and Parish.. But guess who never started off with those teammates and is still winning 18 years later? TIM DUNCAN.
4) Hakeem's Houston Rockets championship teams would rank low if you had to rank them in terms of supporting cast. Peak Clyde Drexler? LMFAO, you are on some really serious ****. Okay, let's switch Magic with Hakeem and give Hakeem KAJ, Worthy, and Byron Scott and Magic with "peak" Drex... LMFAO, you are too funny. Ralph Sam... that's funny, does he rank as high as KAJ does? LOL. How many championships did Ralph have? DPOY? All-NBA? You say Hakeem played with Ralph but don't see how Magic played with KAJ is 10x better?
5) And it's funny you keep bringing up LeBron's lack of success in the Finals when it was a success for them to even crack to the Finals. 2007 was a mismatch. LeBron played better in these Finals than Bird did in the 81 Finals.. Guess who won and who lost? 2011 Mavs, you won't hear an excuse from me. But LeBron played better than Bird did and he STILL didn't win. 2014 Finals, yeah, let's blame him when Dwyane Wade got outplayed by Manu and Chris Bosh (their center/PF) grabs five rebounds per game and gets outplayed by Tim Duncan. Let's also blame LeBron for losing in 2015 with a J.R. Smith/Shump (NYK shipped them out for free because that was how bad they didn't want them, they even threw in J.R. Smith and forced Cavs to take him), Cavs lacked any scoring options that they had Delly pulling up as if he was Steph Curry... That's how bad it was. But you seem to forget that these Finals losses wouldn't have happened if LeBron just played like trash and lost in the earlier rounds -- something that apparently is a much better option than actually reaching the NBA Finals. 2013 Finals, "Ray Allen saves LeBron." Oh yeah... cause Larry Bird and his 15 PPG was what allowed the Celtics to win the 1981 Finals.

Your logic is all over the place. Notice all my arguments are factually proven while yours is trying to nitpick things such as "Ray Allen saving LeBron", and completely ignore that LeBron scored 16 points in the fourth to get the Heat back into the game. You have zero intentions of factually proving anything but just want to deplore other players who have had much more success than Bird while not having equal teammates.

But I digress, you are the type of person who would drop a player a spot because he had bad seasons in which he was injured/completely out of his prime. Since when does a player lose their spot because of a season in which he should have retired? THAT MAKES NO SENSE. That's like saying I should drop Jordan two spots because he played with the Wizards... makes sense!

FlashBolt
09-18-2015, 04:14 PM
GSW brings up Kevin Durant but I can't recall a single person putting Durant on the level of a top ten player. Who's doing that? GSW himself. He drags a player into this conversation but then complains why that player shouldn't be applauded? What?

He brings up NBA valuing offensive talent over defensive talent but forget that Bird/Magic were purely offensive talents... The simple fact is, NBA is a much different game than Bird/Magic. What you could defend back then is something you can't defend now. I always laugh when people bring up the past and say "WOW, it was much tougher back then!" I always bring this video to just remind myself how silly that is.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NudiJUlxb10

Since GSW is a defensive specialist and has an answer to why NBA values offensive talent, can you please tell me how Magic or anyone from that era could stop the above from happening? Seriously, what are they going to do to stop that? Like I said, Magic wouldn't even know how to START. They would probably have thrown Scott onto Curry just so they can hide Magic's defensive liability like they always did. Difference is, Magic would be TORCHED by the players of today. There wasn't a PG dominated era in which PG's were capable of exposing Magic. Sorry, Magic would get exposed trying to guard these PG's of today.

FlashBolt
09-18-2015, 04:14 PM
I laugh and squeal just a little imaging how Magic would guard Westbrook. He had a slow vertical and Westbrook's first step would have gotten him from the FT line to the rim.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8uu4-OKnmDw

Magic wants no part of this... you and I know it. This is Kawhi guarding Westbrook, btw. Is there going to be a debate that Magic is a better defender than Kawhi? Cause apparently, defense isn't something that matters.

numba1CHANGsta
09-18-2015, 04:21 PM
How is Shaq and LeBron ahead of Magic? just a bunch of young kids voting in these polls, your guy's opinion is invalid since it's obvious none of you know basketball

G_S_W
09-24-2015, 12:23 PM
4 years ago Magic was voted #4 best all-time with 81 votes. Hakeem had 0.

NBA PSD forum would vote for taylor swift and justin bieber and kelly clarkson as GOAT rock stars over the stones and the beatles. I think the stones and beatles would beat out miley cyrus.

Shammyguy3
09-24-2015, 12:25 PM
NBA PSD forum would vote for taylor swift and justin bieber and kelly clarkson as GOAT rock stars over the stones and the beatles. I think the stones and beatles would beat out miley cyrus.

a bit over the top don't you think? a better comparison would be to vote for Khris Bryant ahead of Kobe Bryant, since you're going across very different genres.