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Shammyguy3
09-01-2015, 08:25 PM
We do this normally every year at the start of the summer. Since nobody has taken the liberty to continue it, I'll take the reigns and get us started. We'll skip #1, because it's the most obvious consensus there is in sports. We'll start at who everyone thinks is the 2nd best player of all time.

If you think someone should be added to the poll PLEASE don't ***** about it. Just mention in the thread that he should be added to the next poll and if the player's all-time standing is relatively close to the number we're at there shouldn't be a problem adding him to the poll.


So, who does everyone have?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. Shaquille O'Neal
5. ?

tredigs
09-01-2015, 11:15 PM
Shaq won? Crazy. I remember seeing it 10-10 with Duncan in the last thread and we had three straight write-ins for Duncan. Figured he'd take it. He deserved it.

So that said, Duncan.

CousinsEvansDUO
09-01-2015, 11:20 PM
Just wanted to say that I laughed my *** of seeing Spurs fan 1 get his Duncan vote rejected!!!! And haha to all the Spurs homer bandwagon fans. Duncan is barely top 10. I'm tired of these new age kids thinking that these 2000s players were so superior to the 90s and 80s players.

5. Bill Russell
6. Magic

tredigs
09-01-2015, 11:23 PM
Just wanted to say that I laughed my *** of seeing Spurs fan 1 get his Duncan vote rejected!!!! And haha to all the Spurs homer bandwagon fans. Duncan is barely top 10. I'm tired of these new age kids thinking that these 2000s players were so superior to the 90s and 80s players.

5. Bill Russell
6. Magic


But Cousins 7 tho rite?

FlashBolt
09-02-2015, 12:53 AM
Why is LeBron getting a vote? I don't get it... same with Larry or Magic. Over TIM? How did Shaq even beat Tim, no one answered that.

Clippersfan86
09-02-2015, 01:17 AM
Why is LeBron getting a vote? I don't get it... same with Larry or Magic. Over TIM? How did Shaq even beat Tim, no one answered that.

Since when did Duncan become locked in as the 5th be at all time? That's news to me. I voted Lebron. Sure he's had his moments of failure but he's also done more than anyone on this list has with far inferior talent such as his two finals runs in Cleveland. You guys are putting too much weight into longevity IMO. Duncan while still great isn't a guy who can carry you to the finals anymore like Lebron and hasn't been for 5+ years.

CarolinaKing
09-02-2015, 01:17 AM
I'm sorry, but in NO way is Tim Duncan superior to Hakeem Olajuwon...unless we just have some young people voting

Clippersfan86
09-02-2015, 01:19 AM
Magic and Bird definitely have a case too. Both careers shortened by injuries/health but peak... they are both among the best ever.

Dade County
09-02-2015, 01:22 AM
I went Magic here. The man did go to the Final's 9 times and carried the league on his back for many years.


When Lbj career is over and done with, I'll place him in front of Magic and others.


The list is looking perfect so far.

Tony_Starks
09-02-2015, 01:41 AM
Magic.

FlashBolt
09-02-2015, 01:49 AM
Since when did Duncan become locked in as the 5th be at all time? That's news to me. I voted Lebron. Sure he's had his moments of failure but he's also done more than anyone on this list has with far inferior talent such as his two finals runs in Cleveland. You guys are putting too much weight into longevity IMO. Duncan while still great isn't a guy who can carry you to the finals anymore like Lebron and hasn't been for 5+ years.

Since he won that fifth ring and is still a force? Look, he dominated vs the Clippers. Duncan can't carry you to the Finals but if that was the criteria, LeBron should be the GOAT. There is no one in NBA history that could carry a team like LeBron could and did. But this isn't about carrying a team to the NBA Finals; it's also about winning and doing so your entire career. Duncan has been winning the moment he stepped onto the court and is still winning. He's more accomplished than Bron at this moment. I will put LeBron in my top five when he's done (assuming he wins one more ring MINIMUM and is the best player while winning that ring), but until then, I don't see a case for LeBron here this early. And I don't see why Magic/Bird deserve such high praise at this particular order. Both played with insanely stacked teams and had short careers. LeBron definitely bumped Bird out after his 2nd ring.

FlashBolt
09-02-2015, 01:51 AM
I'm sorry, but in NO way is Tim Duncan superior to Hakeem Olajuwon...unless we just have some young people voting

That's the great thing about forums, you prove your case. I haven't seen you put any substance into this thread supporting Hakeem>Duncan. How about it?

Clippersfan86
09-02-2015, 02:08 AM
Duncan dominated one game vs the Clippers, in some others he was great but not dominant. He didn't win finals MVP for a reason, he's not the Duncan of old as great as he still is for his age. Lebron is almost a finals guarantee every year, or at least conference finals. Sure you could bring up how he plays in the east, then we can bring up how little talent he's had besides the 4 Miami years.

FlashBolt
09-02-2015, 02:29 AM
Duncan dominated one game vs the Clippers, in some others he was great but not dominant. He didn't win finals MVP for a reason, he's not the Duncan of old as great as he still is for his age. Lebron is almost a finals guarantee every year, or at least conference finals. Sure you could bring up how he plays in the east, then we can bring up how little talent he's had besides the 4 Miami years.

Game 2: 28 pts, 11 reb, 4 ast, 60 FG%
Game 4: 22 pts, 14 reb, 3 ast, 3 blk, 2 stl, 62 FG%
Game 5: 21 pts, 11 reb, 4 ast, 1 blk, 3 stl 62 FG%
Game 6: 12 pts, 13 reb, 3 ast, 67 FG%,
Game 7: 27 pts, 11 reb, 1 ast, 69 FG%

That's more than one game.. and he was dominant (not prime Duncanesque) but he was certainly dominant for someone his age. He didn't win Finals MVP but Andre Iggy won one last season, would Iggy be better than Curry? Don't think so. Part of why he didn't win was because Spurs just destroyed Miami at every category. Kawhi did a great job vs LeBron so he got a lot of opportunities to showcase his talent on the brightest stage against the greatest player today. LeBron is a finals guarantee but he's made six NBA Finals just like Duncan. We're talking present tense here and presently, Duncan has done more.

Clippersfan86
09-02-2015, 02:46 AM
Big stats doesn't= dominant. Duncan was awesome. He only truly dominated one game. You could make a case for two, that's about it. To be dominant implies he was unstoppable and took over the game.

mightybosstone
09-02-2015, 09:03 AM
Since when did Duncan become locked in as the 5th be at all time? That's news to me. I voted Lebron. Sure he's had his moments of failure but he's also done more than anyone on this list has with far inferior talent such as his two finals runs in Cleveland. You guys are putting too much weight into longevity IMO. Duncan while still great isn't a guy who can carry you to the finals anymore like Lebron and hasn't been for 5+ years.

This. I also voted Lebron. Don't get me wrong, I love and respect Tim Duncan's game. In fact, I have both Lebron and Duncan in my all-time top five with Shaq somewhere around 7-8. But if I have to pick between Duncan and Lebron, I'm taking James. He's just the better, more productive all around basketball player. Even at Timmie's peak (which is really, really good), he doesn't sniff Lebron's dominance. And, yes, he's had far more success in the postseason, but he played on some pretty damn good basketball teams with one of the four or five greatest coaches in NBA history. And Lebron's postseason numbers are actually better than Duncan's.

In fact, I'm curious to see someone make a case for Duncan over Lebron that doesn't involve rings. Longevity and loyalty are pretty much the only other arguments to be made, and the latter is one of the weakest arguments in all of sports.

kdspurman
09-02-2015, 09:17 AM
Duncan's defensive presence is far greater than Lebron's, career-wise and even at his age now, he's a greater presence. Lebron really dials in when he feels like it, no where near as consistent as TD in his prime or even now.

kdspurman
09-02-2015, 09:20 AM
Since when did Duncan become locked in as the 5th be at all time? That's news to me. I voted Lebron. Sure he's had his moments of failure but he's also done more than anyone on this list has with far inferior talent such as his two finals runs in Cleveland. You guys are putting too much weight into longevity IMO. Duncan while still great isn't a guy who can carry you to the finals anymore like Lebron and hasn't been for 5+ years.

Duncan is almost 40. Of course he can't right now.... & Lebron never won or carried a team to a title with a weak supporting cast like Duncan had in 03. Talk about inferior talent....

kdspurman
09-02-2015, 09:24 AM
Big stats doesn't= dominant. Duncan was awesome. He only truly dominated one game. You could make a case for two, that's about it. To be dominant implies he was unstoppable and took over the game.

You can't dominate a game on the defensive end? (sometimes of which don't show up in the box score)

I'm sure you're thinking, he didn't dominate cause his #'s weren't as good as Blake's who did dominate, but it was several games where his defense was dominant. His scoring in a few games as well

mightybosstone
09-02-2015, 10:20 AM
Duncan's defensive presence is far greater than Lebron's, career-wise and even at his age now, he's a greater presence. Lebron really dials in when he feels like it, no where near as consistent as TD in his prime or even now.
Lebron's defense, while stellar, should not be measured equally to that of an elite defensive big man like Duncan. That being said, Duncan was never remotely the offensive player that prime Lebron is. That door swings both ways. And when we look at all encompassing numbers that take both ends of the floor into account, Lebron had a sizable advantage. I'm not saying the argument isn't debatable or that Duncan doesn't have a solid case to be listed ahead of Lebron, but Lebron has just as solid a case to be listed ahead of Duncan.

tredigs
09-02-2015, 10:32 AM
He really doesn't. The defensive dominance is just as vast as Lebron's edge in offense. We got about 4-5 years of great D out of Lebron. We're STILL getting great D out of Duncan and he's pushing 40. Lebron is 30. He doesn't belong above Duncan, not yet at least. And Duncan in that 03 run was a better overall player than Lebron has ever been or ever will be imo. That was a top 3 run of all time.

Tony_Starks
09-02-2015, 10:48 AM
Duncan's defensive presence is far greater than Lebron's, career-wise and even at his age now, he's a greater presence. Lebron really dials in when he feels like it, no where near as consistent as TD in his prime or even now.
Lebron's defense, while stellar, should not be measured equally to that of an elite defensive big man like Duncan. That being said, Duncan was never remotely the offensive player that prime Lebron is. That door swings both ways. And when we look at all encompassing numbers that take both ends of the floor into account, Lebron had a sizable advantage. I'm not saying the argument isn't debatable or that Duncan doesn't have a solid case to be listed ahead of Lebron, but Lebron has just as solid a case to be listed ahead of Duncan.

Duncan was never "remotely" the offensive player Lebron was? This is revisionist history at it's finest. During Duncans early days he could easily give you anywhere in the 30ish-40ish range, and I'm talking about in the playoffs and Finals in the clutch when it mattered. And unlike Lebron you couldn't play him single coverage or back off and dare him to shoot, he absolutely demanded a double team making the defense collapse. You could actually say in his prime Duncans impact on offense was greater than Lebrons, and we're not even getting into him starting fast breaks on the other end with great D, rebounding, and blocks.

Clippersfan86
09-02-2015, 10:54 AM
You can't dominate a game on the defensive end? (sometimes of which don't show up in the box score)

I'm sure you're thinking, he didn't dominate cause his #'s weren't as good as Blake's who did dominate, but it was several games where his defense was dominant. His scoring in a few games as well

And even defensively it was for stretches, not a whole series. Thats not me attacking him man, I love the old man and root for him. I'm just saying to say Duncan "dominated" the Clippers is a misleading term. For his age it was among GOAT playoff performances but not in general.

Clippersfan86
09-02-2015, 10:56 AM
He really doesn't. The defensive dominance is just as vast as Lebron's edge in offense. We got about 4-5 years of great D out of Lebron. We're STILL getting great D out of Duncan and he's pushing 40. Lebron is 30. He doesn't belong above Duncan, not yet at least. And Duncan in that 03 run was a better overall player than Lebron has ever been or ever will be imo. That was a top 3 run of all time.

Comon man. 03 Duncan while amazing isn't as good or dominant as peak Lebron. Arguably nobody in NBA history is including Jordan.

Clippersfan86
09-02-2015, 10:58 AM
09, 12, 13 Lebron are .300 WS/48 players and he was a top notch defender as well. I'd take Lebron over Duncan in 03 in those years all day.

tredigs
09-02-2015, 11:30 AM
Comon man. 03 Duncan while amazing isn't as good or dominant as peak Lebron. Arguably nobody in NBA history is including Jordan.

Yes, he was. He led his team in points/rebounds/assists/blocks with 25/15/5/3 as the most dominant defender in the playoffs en route to the ship through teams that included the Dirk/Nash/Finley Mavs, Amare/Marion/JJ Suns and Shaq/Kobe Lakers. That was just the West. Lebron has never taken a team that weak on his back to those heights while dominating in every facet of the game.

The 2nd comment is ridiculous.

kdspurman
09-02-2015, 11:34 AM
And even defensively it was for stretches, not a whole series. Thats not me attacking him man, I love the old man and root for him. I'm just saying to say Duncan "dominated" the Clippers is a misleading term. For his age it was among GOAT playoff performances but not in general.

Fair enough... There definitely were stretches of dominance and at his age, going against the athletes he was, was very impressive. He doesn't dominate the way some of these other guys do. He's like a silent assassin, and many times you don't even notice the little things he's doing

SLY WILLIAMS
09-02-2015, 11:46 AM
The hick from French Lick.

Larry Bird. Averaged around 24ppg-10rpg-6apg-2spg Shot 50%FG-90%FT-38%3pt Won 3 straight NBA MVPs.

Could score inside like a PF and outside like a SF. Rebounded like a center. Great help defender. Who else did all that?

Clippersfan86
09-02-2015, 11:54 AM
Fair enough... There definitely were stretches of dominance and at his age, going against the athletes he was, was very impressive. He doesn't dominate the way some of these other guys do. He's like a silent assassin, and many times you don't even notice the little things he's doing

No doubt. There were times he was doing things and I was like man wtf so unfair for a 39 year old.

Clippersfan86
09-02-2015, 11:55 AM
Yes, he was. He led his team in points/rebounds/assists/blocks with 25/15/5/3 as the most dominant defender in the playoffs en route to the ship through teams that included the Dirk/Nash/Finley Mavs, Amare/Marion/JJ Suns and Shaq/Kobe Lakers. That was just the West. Lebron has never taken a team that weak on his back to those heights while dominating in every facet of the game.

The 2nd comment is ridiculous.

I disagree and I'll respond when i'm home later on.

Hawkeye15
09-02-2015, 12:54 PM
I voted Duncan here. The next one is between Dream and Magic for me, that will be a toughy

Chronz
09-02-2015, 01:39 PM
Its Duncan for sure, him and Shaq are neck and neck to me so the only logical choice is Duncan. Dominated from day 1 and is still going strong today. He had a brief stretch where it looked like he was winding down then he reinvented his game/body and became an even better defender than he was in his youth.


Bron may have a case if he sustains his dominance long enough but its pretty hard to have the defensive impact of a dominant bigman.

naps
09-02-2015, 02:51 PM
The way Duncan's defense has been highlighted here, one would think Magic doesn't have a shot at being in the top 10 at all because the man didnt play a lick of D in his career.

Chronz
09-02-2015, 03:09 PM
The way Duncan's defense has been highlighted here, one would think Magic doesn't have a shot at being in the top 10 at all because the man didnt play a lick of D in his career.

His offensive impact was unparalleled, he improved the efficiency of his teammates perhaps more than anyone. He certainly has a case, I just love Duncan more for his sustained dominance while Magic's prime was cut short. I have Kobe-Magic-Dream in the next tier tho.

Tony_Starks
09-02-2015, 04:10 PM
The way Duncan's defense has been highlighted here, one would think Magic doesn't have a shot at being in the top 10 at all because the man didnt play a lick of D in his career.


Do people really believe this or is this just something that everyone parrots? Magic was not a good one-on-one defender for his position,big shocker he's 6'9 chasing around pg's. But he could however guard Bigs well, rebound with the best of them, and was a excellent team defender.

Most people don't even know Magic led the league in steals a couple years. Let people tell it he was Steve Nash out there.

Bruno
09-02-2015, 04:37 PM
were going to put Shaq, Hakeem, LBJ and Duncan over Bird and Magic but not Kobe right? I'm just calling it out now I can already see it.

Chronz
09-02-2015, 04:56 PM
Bird had ultimate glue guy level intangibles and was insanely productive. His only faults (aside from a short prime) were sporadic individual level defense but he masked that with an elite understanding of where everyone on the court was positioned. If you watch his Finals vs the Rockets, sure hes always guarding the weakest frontcourt player but he absolutely knew when to trap Hakeem. Its like when we see Kobe's talents on the likes of Rondo instead of primary scorers, hes roaming around and mucking **** up. Thats an elite defensive impact.

The blemishes only arise when a team has 3 legitimate frontcourt scorers, how do assess that?

If we grant that team defense is more valuable than any individual defense, then we have to consider Larry to be a +defender and an A+ offensive player. Not really sure where I would rank Bird defensively but hes definitely higher than Magic on that end. Offensively its much closer, the reason Magic is ranked higher is because he had a relatively longer peak/prime but also because Bird got locked down come playoffs much more often. He did face superior teams/defenses whereas Magic feasted on the weak West mostly.

Magic while a great team defender, also had to be masked on the weakest frontcourt players if possible. When he was squared off vs true PG's, they would obliterate him to a higher degree than Bird IMO. Speedy PG's were the Lakers achilles heal ever since Magic forced their PG out.



I would have no problem with Bird+Magic ahead of Hakeem. If we figure Bird was on average an A+ offensive player, Hakeem was like a solid B in his youth and then elite after about his 9th season or so. He took much longer to master the art of passing and how to play off of others. He relied mostly on his insane defensive prowess and athletic ability offensively to win games, which he could do with the best of them. Had Hakeem won that Finals vs Bird or performed much better, I would have given him the edge vs the legends of the 80s. I just dont value what Dream did much in the 80's.



I think Kobe and Bron should go one after another and Bird and Magic can alternate between who goes before Hakeem. If this were strictly peak stretches, Hakeem would go before any of them save for perhaps Bron but he lacks the same legacy, consistency.

Dade County
09-02-2015, 04:56 PM
were going to put Shaq, Hakeem, LBJ and Duncan over Bird and Magic but not Kobe right? I'm just calling it out now I can already see it.

I can see Kobe going ahead of Bird but not Magic.

Chronz
09-02-2015, 05:04 PM
Bill Russell should go in after Magic.

xnick5757
09-02-2015, 05:09 PM
Lebron's level of dominance in the mid/late 00s far out-ways anyone else on this list

His career's not over yet, but he is:

#3 all time VORP
#14 all time Win Shares
#1 all time for career BPM
25th most points

and he is only tied for #214 in terms of regular season games!


Then in playoffs:

6th most points
3rd most Win Shares
most VORP
and #1 in BPM

with the 19th most games played


LeBron was hands down the best player in the league from 2005-06 to 2012-13.

That level of total domination is one only equaled by MJ

SLY WILLIAMS
09-02-2015, 05:54 PM
Post shooter
Drives to the hoop
Mid Range shooter
Free Throw Shooter
3pt shooter
Rebounder
Passer
Defender
Steals
Shot blocks

Name 5 things Magic/Kobe/Hakeem did better than Bird.

alexander_37
09-02-2015, 06:07 PM
Hakeem for me. I'd probably put him before Shaq too. Dude was a monster, the only reason he didn't have 4-5 rings is Jordan...

Rings aren't everything but he CARRIED his teams.

Catfish1314
09-02-2015, 06:20 PM
Duncan dominated one game vs the Clippers, in some others he was great but not dominant. He didn't win finals MVP for a reason, he's not the Duncan of old as great as he still is for his age. Lebron is almost a finals guarantee every year, or at least conference finals. Sure you could bring up how he plays in the east, then we can bring up how little talent he's had besides the 4 Miami years.

You're comparing Duncan and LeBron present day. LeBron is nine years younger than Duncan.

That this even came up ironically lends favor to the argument for Duncan.

Tony_Starks
09-02-2015, 06:23 PM
Post shooter
Drives to the hoop
Mid Range shooter
Free Throw Shooter
3pt shooter
Rebounder
Passer
Defender
Steals
Shot blocks

Name 5 things Magic/Kobe/Hakeem did better than Bird.


If you're of the opinion that when the Lakers and Celtics squared off they were pretty evenly stacked with HOF talent, which they were, then its reasonable to say that Magic being better than Bird was the main reason for their success against the Celtics. The proof is all there from the numbers,to him hitting the infamous game winner. When Magic choked in 84 they lost.

Larry Bird himself famously said after losing to Magic in the Finals yet again "Magic is the best I've ever seen" and this is coming from a notorious trash talker who was completely against being buddy buddy with opposing players and giving them any kind of credit.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-02-2015, 07:05 PM
If you're of the opinion that when the Lakers and Celtics squared off they were pretty evenly stacked with HOF talent, which they were, then its reasonable to say that Magic being better than Bird was the main reason for their success against the Celtics. The proof is all there from the numbers,to him hitting the infamous game winner. When Magic choked in 84 they lost.

Larry Bird himself famously said after losing to Magic in the Finals yet again "Magic is the best I've ever seen" and this is coming from a notorious trash talker who was completely against being buddy buddy with opposing players and giving them any kind of credit.

Magic said Bird was the best numerous times as well. Is it possible people put too much in to what these friends say about each other? What are all the things on a basketball court you feel Magic did better than Bird?

SLY WILLIAMS
09-02-2015, 07:07 PM
Hakeem for me. I'd probably put him before Shaq too. Dude was a monster, the only reason he didn't have 4-5 rings is Jordan...

Rings aren't everything but he CARRIED his teams.

???? Jordan did not prevent Hakeem from winning a single ring....Bird did. Magic did. Hakeem lost to a lot of not so great teams over the years.

alexander_37
09-02-2015, 07:13 PM
???? Jordan did not prevent Hakeem from winning a single ring....Bird did. Magic did.

Yes you are right, regardless those were some of the best all time teams. The point I am trying to make is that he was a victim of playing with little talent and going up against just absolutely stacked teams. Pat Riley admitted to putting 4 guys on him before and they still had trouble stopping him.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-02-2015, 07:16 PM
Yes you are right, regardless those were some of the best all time teams. The point I am trying to make is that he was a victim of playing with little talent and going up against just absolutely stacked teams. Pat Riley admitted to putting 4 guys on him before and they still had trouble stopping him.

You are right that he carried some less than great teams to those two rings. He had 3 long playoff runs but several early playoff exits as well.

alexander_37
09-02-2015, 07:38 PM
You are right that he carried some less than great teams to those two rings. He had 3 long playoff runs but several early playoff exits as well.

I am looking through them to refresh my memory as I am typing this he lost to some solid Seattle teams in his ealry years, the 90-91 Lakers with a Prime Magic and Worthy.

The Payton/Kemp Sonics where he averaged like 25/14, where not one player on his team averaged over 14 ppg that season.

We all know 93-94/94-95 Hakeem wins championship ( with one player who even averaged 14 a game.)

Even with Clyde being the only other real player he regularly had poor shooting nights and the Spurs put the clamps on him pretty badly.

96 they lose to an AMAZING Sonics team who lost to the Bulls ( in one of Jordans best ever campaigns.)

96-97 Clyde was slowing down big time, Barkley was a really great addition but hardly prime Barkley.

97-98 they lose to utah Barkley (hurt I believe played but didn't even start.) is a non factor, Clyde shoots 30% and retires.

98 they lose to the Shaq-Kobe Lakers and it's the first time where Hakeem got truly shut down in the playoffs ( at 35 years old to a 25 year old shaq)

mngopher35
09-02-2015, 08:07 PM
were going to put Shaq, Hakeem, LBJ and Duncan over Bird and Magic but not Kobe right? I'm just calling it out now I can already see it.

I think Bird/Kobe could end up being a good debate and I would ultimately give the nod to Kobe. I don't think I see Hakeem and Lebron being able to beat out Magic though, my guess is he will go next. Magic/Hakeem/Lebron will likely be next 3 for me followed by Kobe/Bird/Russell.

flea
09-02-2015, 08:17 PM
I think Bird/Kobe could end up being a good debate and I would ultimately give the nod to Kobe. I don't think I see Hakeem and Lebron being able to beat out Magic though, my guess is he will go next. Magic/Hakeem/Lebron will likely be next 3 for me followed by Kobe/Bird/Russell.

Yikes Kobe over Bird? Sly is right, lots of Bird hate. Bird has a legitimate claim as best offensive player ever and best peak ever - there was pretty much nothing Kobe did better than Bird except perimeter D (not better overall defensive player though) and ballhandling. You don't have to build your offense around Bird, though you can and his teams did, and the only person I think has a legitimate argument for greater off-ball offensive impact is Dirk.

mngopher35
09-02-2015, 08:36 PM
Yikes Kobe over Bird? Sly is right, lots of Bird hate. Bird has a legitimate claim as best offensive player ever and best peak ever - there was pretty much nothing Kobe did better than Bird except perimeter D (not better overall defensive player though) and ballhandling. You don't have to build your offense around Bird, though you can and his teams did, and the only person I think has a legitimate argument for greater off-ball offensive impact is Dirk.

Just because someone ranks an all time great slightly over another doesn't mean it is hate. Bird was the better player at his peak for sure but Kobe had such a long prime that I think it makes up for that difference. It is somewhat similar reasoning I had Duncan over Shaq. Now obviously the defense isn't as big of an issue here but the longevity gap is larger too. Like I said I think it can be a good debate overall.

I can get into more specific reasoning when the time comes.

GREATNESS ONE
09-02-2015, 10:28 PM
were going to put Shaq, Hakeem, LBJ and Duncan over Bird and Magic but not Kobe right? I'm just calling it out now I can already see it.

Magic and Kobe were garbage. Duh. It's PSD.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-02-2015, 10:38 PM
were going to put Shaq, Hakeem, LBJ and Duncan over Bird and Magic but not Kobe right? I'm just calling it out now I can already see it.

I don't think anyone said that.

naps
09-03-2015, 12:54 AM
If you're of the opinion that when the Lakers and Celtics squared off they were pretty evenly stacked with HOF talent, which they were, then its reasonable to say that Magic being better than Bird was the main reason for their success against the Celtics. The proof is all there from the numbers,to him hitting the infamous game winner. When Magic choked in 84 they lost.

Larry Bird himself famously said after losing to Magic in the Finals yet again "Magic is the best I've ever seen" and this is coming from a notorious trash talker who was completely against being buddy buddy with opposing players and giving them any kind of credit.

You must not have heard Magic talk about BIRD then. When Magic talks about Bird, you could see on his face he is having an orgasm. Players talking about players are just opinions, just like people that make life out of talking about the sports.

Tony_Starks
09-03-2015, 12:58 PM
You are right that he carried some less than great teams to those two rings. He had 3 long playoff runs but several early playoff exits as well.

I am looking through them to refresh my memory as I am typing this he lost to some solid Seattle teams in his ealry years, the 90-91 Lakers with a Prime Magic and Worthy.

The Payton/Kemp Sonics where he averaged like 25/14, where not one player on his team averaged over 14 ppg that season.

We all know 93-94/94-95 Hakeem wins championship ( with one player who even averaged 14 a game.)

Even with Clyde being the only other real player he regularly had poor shooting nights and the Spurs put the clamps on him pretty badly.

96 they lose to an AMAZING Sonics team who lost to the Bulls ( in one of Jordans best ever campaigns.)

96-97 Clyde was slowing down big time, Barkley was a really great addition but hardly prime Barkley.

97-98 they lose to utah Barkley (hurt I believe played but didn't even start.) is a non factor, Clyde shoots 30% and retires.

98 they lose to the Shaq-Kobe Lakers and it's the first time where Hakeem got truly shut down in the playoffs ( at 35 years old to a 25 year old shaq)


Magic and Worthy were NOT in their prime in 91. Far from it. Magic was slowing down and Worthys knees had started to go south on him, he ended up missing the last couple games of the Finals ( B Scott was done at some point during the series as well). I remember everybody was pissed because they didn't send him home to LA for treatment after we stole game 1.

It's not like MJ beat the Showtime Lakers, he beat a Laker squad that had dominated for a decade and still had some left in the tank. It's the equivalent of beating the Spurs now as opposed to early 2000's.

Tony_Starks
09-03-2015, 01:08 PM
If you're of the opinion that when the Lakers and Celtics squared off they were pretty evenly stacked with HOF talent, which they were, then its reasonable to say that Magic being better than Bird was the main reason for their success against the Celtics. The proof is all there from the numbers,to him hitting the infamous game winner. When Magic choked in 84 they lost.

Larry Bird himself famously said after losing to Magic in the Finals yet again "Magic is the best I've ever seen" and this is coming from a notorious trash talker who was completely against being buddy buddy with opposing players and giving them any kind of credit.

Magic said Bird was the best numerous times as well. Is it possible people put too much in to what these friends say about each other? What are all the things on a basketball court you feel Magic did better than Bird?


Well at that point they weren't friends but bittter rivals so it did have much more relevance to it. That's way different from guys looking back and remembering things fondly with the benefit of hindsight. This was right after the worse loss of his career to a team he hated and a guy that had been a thorn in his side since college.

To your question Magic was the far superior passer than Bird, the best passer ever in fact. Magic was also able to control a game better than Bird. He had the game down to where he knew exactly when to distribute, or when to turn into a scorer. Bird was a great passer as well but he was more of a assassin first. Magic could also pound the glass a little better than Bird, especially for a pg and then it was a instant fast break.

Also the cliche about "making everyone better" Magic really did that. He had guys around him so spoiled that they didn't even have to dribble, he gave it to them in prime scoring position.

They are close but I give the edge to Magic. Either one of them is over the Dream tho and damn sure over Lebron imo....

SLY WILLIAMS
09-03-2015, 01:31 PM
Well at that point they weren't friends but bittter rivals so it did have much more relevance to it. That's way different from guys looking back and remembering things fondly with the benefit of hindsight. This was right after the worse loss of his career to a team he hated and a guy that had been a thorn in his side since college.

To your question Magic was the far superior passer than Bird, the best passer ever in fact. Magic was also able to control a game better than Bird. He had the game down to where he knew exactly when to distribute, or when to turn into a scorer. Bird was a great passer as well but he was more of a assassin first. Magic could also pound the glass a little better than Bird, especially for a pg and then it was a instant fast break.

Also the cliche about "making everyone better" Magic really did that. He had guys around him so spoiled that they didn't even have to dribble, he gave it to them in prime scoring position.

They are close but I give the edge to Magic. Either one of them is over the Dream tho and damn sure over Lebron imo....

Magic was a great passer. So was Bird but because of the overall assist numbers I give passing to Magic. I agree with you there.

As far as rebounding goes Bird was the better rebounder. Bird was one of if not the best rebounding small forward ever so I disagree with you there. Birds rebound numbers are up around guys like Shaq, Drob, and Duncan despite playing SF. Magic was a great rebounder for a PG but his rebound numbers are 50% less than Birds.

Magic had a very good effect on his teammates and so did Bird so its hard for me to qualify that intangible enough to give either an edge.

Would you say Bird was the better scorer? And defender?

I agree about Hakeem. I think Hakeem was a great player BUT why did he get so overrated on these PSD lists?

Chronz
09-03-2015, 02:05 PM
I agree about Hakeem. I think Hakeem was a great player BUT why did he get so overrated on these PSD lists?

Lots of people think Hakeem was elite on both ends, which for stretches he was, but throughout his career, the man basically had a defensive peak at the start of his career and an offensive peak towards the end. Im sure they overlapped for a few years there but people have this misconception that he was at the top of his game on both ends throughout the majority of his career and thats just not true. I used to have Dream ahead of both Magic and Bird but Im starting to value their intangible worth alot more. Its a conversation for sure but Im just stating why I think people might be overrating him.

Clippersfan86
09-03-2015, 03:04 PM
You're comparing Duncan and LeBron present day. LeBron is nine years younger than Duncan.

That this even came up ironically lends favor to the argument for Duncan.

Actually I'm not comparing current Lebron to current Duncan.That comparison was in reference to the claim that 08, 09, 13 Lebron weren't better than 03 Duncan, which Lebron was surely better peak vs peak. He said Duncan's best season is better than any of Lebron's which I strongly disagree with. Lebron may have the best peak in NBA history. I know it's just one stat but Lebron was a .300 WS/48 player in those years. 2013 Lebron was noticeably more dominant and better than 03 Duncan.

Clippersfan86
09-03-2015, 03:13 PM
This was only like 65 percent of the way through season but look at some of these numbers.

http://www.businessinsider.com/lebron-stats-best-season-ever-2013-2

Lebron's 6 or 7 year peak he had an AVERAGE of about .260 WS/48 which is higher than Duncan's best year. 2 seasons at over .300 WS/48, 2 literally right at it at .299 and .298.

Not to mention he shot nearly 60 percent on the season en route to putting up 27/8/7/1.5 and being .2 away from stealing the all time PER record from Wilt. All while still being a borderline elite defender who can guard all 5 positions pretty comfortably. Mind you the last two years his defense dropped off pretty bad but he anchored that Miami offense AND defense.

Clippersfan86
09-03-2015, 03:17 PM
http://www.businessinsider.com/lebrons-2012-13-is-one-of-best-nba-seasons-ever-2013-6

More stats. 1st in offense win shares, 10th in defense win shares, only player ever to average those stats. Never mind the 27 game win streak, 66 wins, locking up TP for parts of the finals.

Clippersfan86
09-03-2015, 03:21 PM
Btw I meant 2009, 2010 Lebron, not 2008. Think I crossed the years. 03 Duncan was better in the playoffs than 13 Lebron (not 12 though arguably) but when you mentioned a peak year, I'm taking it in its entirety and LeBron was the more dominant player. There is a reason people started legitimately debating Lebron vs Jordan that year.

flea
09-03-2015, 04:10 PM
That'd all be fine and good if WS or defensive WS had anything to do with defense. Since it doesn't, we're left to analyze relative defensive impacts ourselves. Duncan, who is probably the defensive GOAT (unless you like Russell) compared to Lebron's D, which was that of a wing who gets boards.

It's not terrible to think '12 Lebron was better than '03 Duncan, but it'd probably be a minority opinion especially considering relative team strength and conference strength. Heat didn't waltz through anything that year, even if the Finals weren't terribly competitive. Ancient Boston Big 3 pushed them the distance and Rondo put up a Magic Johnson type line. And the Heat were far and away the most talented team in every series that year - the Spurs did not have had as much talent as the West's 8 seed if you take Duncan off the team.

Clippersfan86
09-03-2015, 04:19 PM
Duncan did more with less that year, not even gonna argue that. Lebron had arguably the greatest season ever though in its totality, Duncan did not. Both were elite on both ends and even if you don't value those particular stats, find one you do value and I guarantee Lebron will show as elite. Their gap on offense was just as large if not more than their defensive gap. I'm also a believer that rim defense is overrated and perimeter/positional defense is underrated.

Clippersfan86
09-03-2015, 04:39 PM
I'd take Gary Payton in this league over an elite rim protector. Especially with the more perimeter based play and huge uptick in 3 point shooting. Rim defense would have been more important in the 90's but not now IMO.

mngopher35
09-03-2015, 04:44 PM
Since this one is about done I looked up some stats for reference when considering the next group of players. Let me be clear that while I think stats are valuable just because certain players look better here isn't the end of the discussion, it's just a start point. I left Russell out since we know a lot of his impact was more defense which won't show as much here and they don't have Vorp/BPM data either. He did have some playoff runs with high WS/48 and a few with PER over 22 though. Also these were arbitrary numbers chosen based on what I thought would be telling, I did not know the results going in and a couple of times players were close to having more. I suggest looking into it a bit yourself if truly interested in comparing their stats as this is extremely basic.

Years with RS PER over 25:
Bird:4
Kobe:3
Lebron:10
Magic:5
Hakeem:5


Years with RS WS/48 over .25:
Bird:0
Magic:4
Kobe:0
Lebron:5
Hakeem: 0

Years leading RS in BPM or Vorp
(this one relies on the time they played more too, Magic was against Bird for example. Lebron v Kobe and Hakeem V Jordan to name others):
Kobe:0
Magic:1 (lead both)
Bird: 4 (lead both all 4)
Lebron:9 (lead both 7 times)
Hakeem:0

Years with a playoff PER of 22 or higher:
Kobe:7
Magic:10
Bird:4 (I rounded up two seasons 21.8)
Lebron:10 (every playoffs played)
Hakeem:9

Years with playoff PER of 25+:
Bird:1
Magic:3
Lebron:6
Kobe:3
Hakeem:7

Years with playoff WS/48 over .200:
Bird:2
Magic:7
Kobe:2
Lebron:6
Hakeem:5

Years with playoff WS/48 over .25:
Bird:0
Magic:2
Kobe:1
Lebron:4
Hakeem:2

Years leading the league in playoff vorp or BPM (this one relies on the time they played more too):
Bird: 6 (two years leading both)
Magic: 4 (one year leading both)
Lebron: 7 (5 years leading both)
Kobe: 0
Hakeem:3 (one year leading both)



Now these numbers aren't the end all but I do think if you look into it a little bit more it is interesting. So far of the 5 people we have chosen all of them have 8+ years with a playoff PER over 22 and 6+ over 25 (Lebron and Hakeem match that criteria, magic next closest). All of the players already chosen have 6+ years of WS/48 of over .20 and 1+ year at .25 in the playoffs (Lebron and Magic have that, Hakeem very close). In the regular season all of those chosen have 5+ years with PER over 25 and 1+ season with WS/48 .25 (Magic and Lebron match that).

I have Magic/Hakeem/Lebron in my next tier which statistically seems to follow in the players we have been picking earlier on.

Clippersfan86
09-03-2015, 04:53 PM
You should provide that data for Duncan too Gopher but good post.

mngopher35
09-03-2015, 05:05 PM
You should provide that data for Duncan too Gopher but good post.

No problem, I got a little time. I just considered him someone who we had already chosen (he set a low end standard or two for top 5). Just for Duncan # of years at each mark:

RS PER over 25: 5 time
RS WS/48 over .25: 1 time
Playoff PER over 22: 11 times
Playoff PER over 25: 7 times
Playoff WS/48 .20: 7 times
Playoff WS/48 .25: 2 times
Lead regulars season in Vorp or BPM: 1 time (lead in both)
Playoff lead in Vorp or BPM: 3 times (lead in both once)

He is someone who has some really close years that don't quite make it, maybe they all do.

Tony_Starks
09-04-2015, 10:24 AM
Well at that point they weren't friends but bittter rivals so it did have much more relevance to it. That's way different from guys looking back and remembering things fondly with the benefit of hindsight. This was right after the worse loss of his career to a team he hated and a guy that had been a thorn in his side since college.

To your question Magic was the far superior passer than Bird, the best passer ever in fact. Magic was also able to control a game better than Bird. He had the game down to where he knew exactly when to distribute, or when to turn into a scorer. Bird was a great passer as well but he was more of a assassin first. Magic could also pound the glass a little better than Bird, especially for a pg and then it was a instant fast break.

Also the cliche about "making everyone better" Magic really did that. He had guys around him so spoiled that they didn't even have to dribble, he gave it to them in prime scoring position.

They are close but I give the edge to Magic. Either one of them is over the Dream tho and damn sure over Lebron imo....

Magic was a great passer. So was Bird but because of the overall assist numbers I give passing to Magic. I agree with you there.

As far as rebounding goes Bird was the better rebounder. Bird was one of if not the best rebounding small forward ever so I disagree with you there. Birds rebound numbers are up around guys like Shaq, Drob, and Duncan despite playing SF. Magic was a great rebounder for a PG but his rebound numbers are 50% less than Birds.

Magic had a very good effect on his teammates and so did Bird so its hard for me to qualify that intangible enough to give either an edge.

Would you say Bird was the better scorer? And defender?

I agree about Hakeem. I think Hakeem was a great player BUT why did he get so overrated on these PSD lists?


I don't think he is really overrated, typically everyone has him in the 6-9 range which is where I have him. Anytime you're the main part of back to back chips you are officially in a rare conversation. I personally don't believe MJ himself would've stopped Dream when he was on that rampage, but I don't even want to mess with the MJ myth worshippers.

Suffice to say for that window he was pretty unstoppable. He was really balling earlier in his career as well, just so happens he was one of the many victims of Magics Lakers.

Clippersfan86
09-04-2015, 10:43 AM
No problem, I got a little time. I just considered him someone who we had already chosen (he set a low end standard or two for top 5). Just for Duncan # of years at each mark:

RS PER over 25: 5 time
RS WS/48 over .25: 1 time
Playoff PER over 22: 11 times
Playoff PER over 25: 7 times
Playoff WS/48 .20: 7 times
Playoff WS/48 .25: 2 times
Lead regulars season in Vorp or BPM: 1 time (lead in both)
Playoff lead in Vorp or BPM: 3 times (lead in both once)

He is someone who has some really close years that don't quite make it, maybe they all do.

Thanks!

tredigs
09-04-2015, 12:11 PM
I don't think he is really overrated, typically everyone has him in the 6-9 range which is where I have him. Anytime you're the main part of back to back chips you are officially in a rare conversation. I personally don't believe MJ himself would've stopped Dream when he was on that rampage, but I don't even want to mess with the MJ myth worshippers.

Suffice to say for that window he was pretty unstoppable. He was really balling earlier in his career as well, just so happens he was one of the many victims of Magics Lakers.

MJ a victim of the Showtime Lakers? When/how? His team was garbage until the late 80's and you could really only say he was victim to Bird's Celtics + BadBoys at that point.

Chronz
09-04-2015, 01:11 PM
MJ a victim of the Showtime Lakers? When/how? His team was garbage until the late 80's and you could really only say he was victim to Bird's Celtics + BadBoys at that point.

I think hes getting at Dream losing to the Lakeshow but aside from that horrific showing in 1990, I dont think Dream ever lost to Magic. In fact Im pretty sure he upset them, without their PG to boot.

I just finished watching G1 of that series too, Ive forgotten how much everyone used to back each other down back then.

SLY WILLIAMS
09-04-2015, 02:52 PM
I don't think he is really overrated, typically everyone has him in the 6-9 range which is where I have him. Anytime you're the main part of back to back chips you are officially in a rare conversation. I personally don't believe MJ himself would've stopped Dream when he was on that rampage, but I don't even want to mess with the MJ myth worshippers.

Suffice to say for that window he was pretty unstoppable. He was really balling earlier in his career as well, just so happens he was one of the many victims of Magics Lakers.


I hated Jordan. I still do not like him but he would have beat Hakeem when he was in his prime not the 17 game rusty version of Jordan. I will tell you why.

1. In 1993-94 my Knicks choked away a 3-2 finals lead going back to MSG more than the Rockets won it.
2. In 1994-95 the Suns also choked away a 3-1 semifinals lead.

Those Rocket teams were not that special. They rode a great Hakeem and played clutch but they pretty weak for a back to back repeat champion. Jordan had the killer instinct that my Knicks and those Suns teams did not have. Jordan would have put them away.

Bruno
09-07-2015, 07:20 PM
I'd take Gary Payton in this league over an elite rim protector. Especially with the more perimeter based play and huge uptick in 3 point shooting. Rim defense would have been more important in the 90's but not now IMO.

kind of depends on the rim protector. but i buy the idea that PGs can anchor defenses if they are on elite enough of a level. look at those early 2000s Nets teams, how were they so dominant defensively without a single top tier defender on the roster outside of Jason Kidd? perimeter stabilizers.

andy2518
09-07-2015, 08:25 PM
Shouldn't the number six player be up for vote by now?

andy2518
09-07-2015, 08:28 PM
Since this one is about done I looked up some stats for reference when considering the next group of players. Let me be clear that while I think stats are valuable just because certain players look better here isn't the end of the discussion, it's just a start point. I left Russell out since we know a lot of his impact was more defense which won't show as much here and they don't have Vorp/BPM data either. He did have some playoff runs with high WS/48 and a few with PER over 22 though. Also these were arbitrary numbers chosen based on what I thought would be telling, I did not know the results going in and a couple of times players were close to having more. I suggest looking into it a bit yourself if truly interested in comparing their stats as this is extremely basic.

Years with RS PER over 25:
Bird:4
Kobe:3
Lebron:10
Magic:5
Hakeem:5


Years with RS WS/48 over .25:
Bird:0
Magic:4
Kobe:0
Lebron:5
Hakeem: 0

Years leading RS in BPM or Vorp
(this one relies on the time they played more too, Magic was against Bird for example. Lebron v Kobe and Hakeem V Jordan to name others):
Kobe:0
Magic:1 (lead both)
Bird: 4 (lead both all 4)
Lebron:9 (lead both 7 times)
Hakeem:0

Years with a playoff PER of 22 or higher:
Kobe:7
Magic:10
Bird:4 (I rounded up two seasons 21.8)
Lebron:10 (every playoffs played)
Hakeem:9

Years with playoff PER of 25+:
Bird:1
Magic:3
Lebron:6
Kobe:3
Hakeem:7

Years with playoff WS/48 over .200:
Bird:2
Magic:7
Kobe:2
Lebron:6
Hakeem:5

Years with playoff WS/48 over .25:
Bird:0
Magic:2
Kobe:1
Lebron:4
Hakeem:2

Years leading the league in playoff vorp or BPM (this one relies on the time they played more too):
Bird: 6 (two years leading both)
Magic: 4 (one year leading both)
Lebron: 7 (5 years leading both)
Kobe: 0
Hakeem:3 (one year leading both)



Now these numbers aren't the end all but I do think if you look into it a little bit more it is interesting. So far of the 5 people we have chosen all of them have 8+ years with a playoff PER over 22 and 6+ over 25 (Lebron and Hakeem match that criteria, magic next closest). All of the players already chosen have 6+ years of WS/48 of over .20 and 1+ year at .25 in the playoffs (Lebron and Magic have that, Hakeem very close). In the regular season all of those chosen have 5+ years with PER over 25 and 1+ season with WS/48 .25 (Magic and Lebron match that).

I have Magic/Hakeem/Lebron in my next tier which statistically seems to follow in the players we have been picking earlier on.

Was wondering where Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem rank in all this? Obviously we all know Jordan is going to be very high up.

EDIT: All good if not. I know you did a lot to make the list in the first place. Just wanting to see if it was accurate in the voting results so far.

Shammyguy3
09-07-2015, 08:54 PM
Shouldn't the number six player be up for vote by now?

it's been up for a couple days already, it's stickied at the top of the main NBA page

andy2518
09-07-2015, 09:11 PM
it's been up for a couple days already, it's stickied at the top of the main NBA page

Well duh on me lol.

mngopher35
09-11-2015, 11:55 PM
Was wondering where Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem rank in all this? Obviously we all know Jordan is going to be very high up.

EDIT: All good if not. I know you did a lot to make the list in the first place. Just wanting to see if it was accurate in the voting results so far.

Just saw this post, my bad. Luckily I was searching through the past few threads.

Years with RS PER over 25:
Shaq:11
KAJ: 10
Lebron:10
Wilt:8
Duncan:5
Magic:5
Hakeem:5
Bird:4
Kobe:3

Years with RS WS/48 over .25:
Kaj: 6
Wilt:6
Lebron:5
Shaq:5
Magic:4
Duncan:1
Bird:0
Kobe:0
Hakeem: 0


Years leading RS in BPM or Vorp
(this one relies on the time they played more too, Magic was against Bird for example. Lebron v Kobe and Hakeem V Jordan to name others):

Lebron:9 (lead both 7 times)
KAJ: 7 (lead both 5 times and his first few years the stats wasn't recorded)
Bird: 4 (lead both all 4)
Shaq: 2 (lead both once)
Duncan:1 (lead in both)
Magic:1 (lead both)
Kobe:0
Hakeem:0
Wilt: No data

Years with a playoff PER of 22 or higher:
KAJ: 11
Duncan: 11
Shaq:10
Lebron:10 (every playoffs played)
Magic:10
Hakeem:9
Wilt:8
Kobe:7
Bird:4 (I rounded up two seasons 21.8)

Years with playoff PER of 25+:
Shaq:9
Wilt:7
Duncan:7
Hakeem:7
KAJ:6
Lebron:6
Kobe:3
Magic:3
Bird:1


Years with playoff WS/48 over .200:
Wilt:7
KAJ:7
Duncan:7
Magic:7
Shaq:7
Lebron:6
Hakeem:5
Kobe:2
Bird:2


Years with playoff WS/48 over .25:
KAJ:5
Lebron:4
Wilt:3
Duncan:2
Hakeem:2
Magic:2
Shaq:1
Kobe:1
Bird:0

Years leading the league in playoff vorp or BPM (this one relies on the time they played more too):
Lebron: 7 (5 years leading both)
Bird: 6 (two years leading both)
Magic: 4 (one year leading both)
Duncan:3 (lead in both once)
KAJ:3 (lead both twice, once again his first few years no data)
Hakeem:3 (one year leading both)
Shaq: 1 (lead just vorp)
Wilt: No data
Kobe: 0

Overall it seems that KAJ/Shaq/Wilt/TD make up a lot of the top of the list. Before (when it was just Magic/Bird/Kobe/Hakeem/Lebron) Lebron probably looked the best based only on these stats but not anymore. Up until Hakeem it was pretty accurate I would say but this obviously isn't the whole picture.