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View Full Version : All-Time Rankings (#4): TIEBREAKER!



Shammyguy3
08-31-2015, 07:15 PM
We do this normally every year at the start of the summer. Since nobody has taken the liberty to continue it, I'll take the reigns and get us started. We'll skip #1, because it's the most obvious consensus there is in sports. We'll start at who everyone thinks is the 2nd best player of all time.

If you think someone should be added to the poll PLEASE don't ***** about it. Just mention in the thread that he should be added to the next poll and if the player's all-time standing is relatively close to the number we're at there shouldn't be a problem adding him to the poll.


So, who does everyone have?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. ?


The previous thread had a tie for Duncan & Shaq.... between those two guys, who is better all time (to take the 4th spot)

FlashBolt
08-31-2015, 07:46 PM
Tim Duncan.

More accomplished.
Better overall player.
Unmatched longevity (Kareem?) of dominance.
Greatest PF (Not even CLOSE).
No weakness.

naps
09-01-2015, 02:41 AM
Shaq. Similar resume. Underrated defender. Most dominant offensive speciman in league history.

MTar786
09-01-2015, 05:13 AM
shaq was possibly the greatest finals performer of all time

xbrackattackx
09-01-2015, 10:15 AM
I'm gonna go Shaq. But I still love Duncan.

JAZZNC
09-01-2015, 11:40 AM
Duncan.

Tony_Starks
09-01-2015, 12:09 PM
Wow

Raps18-19 Champ
09-01-2015, 12:35 PM
Well neither are 4th best player but if I had to pick between the 2, Duncan. Shaq was much more dominant but he doesn't have the longevity that Duncan has on both sides of the floor.

kdspurman
09-01-2015, 12:42 PM
Well neither are 4th best player but if I had to pick between the 2, Duncan. Shaq was much more dominant but he doesn't have the longevity that Duncan has on both sides of the floor.

"Best player" is hard mainly due to the different styles/positions these guys play. Who would you have here?

xnick5757
09-01-2015, 12:44 PM
Voted for Shaq.

Just feels weird to me that Duncan was only the best player in the league for one season (01).


IMO to be in this top tier you have to dominate the game for multiple years, like Jordan, Jabbar, and Lebron did.

alexander_37
09-01-2015, 01:13 PM
Peak Shaq was more dominant. Duncan has longevity and defense.

I'll take shaq though.

Bruno
09-01-2015, 01:45 PM
Shaq. Similar resume. Underrated defender. Most dominant offensive speciman in league history.

Defense is rating accurately, Wilt and Mj were more dominant.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-01-2015, 04:31 PM
"Best player" is hard mainly due to the different styles/positions these guys play. Who would you have here?

Lebron.

Raps18-19 Champ
09-01-2015, 04:32 PM
Voted for Shaq.

Just feels weird to me that Duncan was only the best player in the league for one season (01).


IMO to be in this top tier you have to dominate the game for multiple years, like Jordan, Jabbar, and Lebron did.

Well he did win 2 deserving MVPs. Granted a player like Shaq could have won more but Duncan deserved both his MVPs.

xnick5757
09-01-2015, 05:04 PM
Well he did win 2 deserving MVPs. Granted a player like Shaq could have won more but Duncan deserved both his MVPs.

yeah fair enough. I think TMac was better in that 2002/03 but it's definitely close enough between the two to not really matter.


He's not an option but I would also have gone with Lebron. From the 07-08 through the 12-13 season he was clearly the best player in the league.

Duncan's peak was not anywhere close to LeBron's - and that's not a knock on Duncan, but a testament to how dominant peak LeBron was

Raps18-19 Champ
09-01-2015, 05:07 PM
yeah fair enough. I think TMac was better in that 2002/03 but it's definitely close enough between the two to not really matter.


He's not an option but I would also have gone with Lebron. From the 07-08 through the 12-13 season he was clearly the best player in the league.

Duncan's peak was not anywhere close to LeBron's - and that's not a knock on Duncan, but a testament to how dominant peak LeBron was

He was available in the first poll but no one will vote Lebron till like the 7-10 range.

kdspurman
09-01-2015, 05:12 PM
Duncan IMO has been much better and far more consistent on the defensive end since the day he entered the league. His peak may not have been as high as Lebron or Shaq, but he was the anchor defensively his whole career, nor Lebron or Shaq can make that claim.

Not to mention his game/play has always went up in the playoffs & finals.

Regardless, being regarded a top 10 player ever is a pretty big praise, and people's top 10's will vary. Always cool to debate

Clippersfan86
09-01-2015, 05:37 PM
This is peak vs longevity. I'm taking Shaq by a slight edge because his prime he hit a level of dominance no player besides maybe Jordan has hit. He impacted games more than Duncan IMO. Although it's not a landslide or anything and Duncan's Kareem/Malone like longevity is incredible and makes this close. Personally if you asked me if I'd take 10 years of prime Shaq or 15 years of Duncan at at least an all star level and maybe 2 or 3 at Shaq's prime level on the Clippers for some rings, I'm taking Shaq.

flea
09-01-2015, 06:13 PM
Duncan. Better rebounder, defender, passer, better IQ, better teammate, and more diverse offensive player. Shaq was better offensively in prime but you had to win his way or he'd b!*ch and moan, and his way was a high usage pounding style that required 4 shooters around him to play at peak levels.

Clippersfan86
09-01-2015, 06:22 PM
Flea the only thing not debatable is the better IQ and teammate. Their rebounding and passing was pretty much equal in their primes. Almost identical rebound and assist percentages and per game. Also Shaq averaged slightly less turnovers despite more usage/touches. Duncan was more skilled but production> how post game or footwork looks. If one guy only has two moves but shoots 70 percent, that's superior to 60 percent with 10 moves.

Clippersfan86
09-01-2015, 06:22 PM
Shaq was an incredible passer from the center position.

Clippersfan86
09-01-2015, 06:24 PM
Also he built a dynasty with Kobe, so he clearly can play with more than spot up shooters when he played with a high usage, high 20 ppg scorer who likes to play on the ball. Kobe wasn't even a prolific 3 point shooter in those years (or ever). He was a slasher/midrange/post guy like younger Jordan. Career 3 point percentage of 33 which is well below league average and in a few years in his prime he was sub 30 percent or around 30 percent.

Bruno
09-01-2015, 08:10 PM
Also he built a dynasty with Kobe, so he clearly can play with more than spot up shooters when he played with a high usage, high 20 ppg scorer who likes to play on the ball. Kobe wasn't even a prolific 3 point shooter in those years (or ever). He was a slasher/midrange/post guy like younger Jordan. Career 3 point percentage of 33 which is well below league average and in a few years in his prime he was sub 30 percent or around 30 percent.

Kobe shot 37% from three over 69 playoff games from 2000-2003 (2,018 attempts). in the 2002 and 2003 post seasons he shot 39% on 120 attempts over 31 games. Kobe is basically what you said he is, but the guy doesn't hold the single game record for nothing. he gets hot and when he does he actually does have the percentages of a more respectable long distance shooter. there are few pockets during key moments like I refer to above where Kobe actually does morph into that guy when on a heater.

but generally speaking that wasn't really Kobe role it was Fishers. In the playoffs Fisher was an incredible 45% from three on 280 attempts from 2000-2004. i don't think the spot up shooter thing is a knock on either of these bigs, everybody needs shooters and these two bigs have had some good ones.

Bruno
09-01-2015, 08:11 PM
is there a more preference oriented, could go either way comparison in the top ten?

Clippersfan86
09-01-2015, 08:19 PM
Kobe shot 37% from three over 69 playoff games from 2000-2003 (2,018 attempts). in the 2002 and 2003 post seasons he shot 39% on 120 attempts over 31 games. Kobe is basically what you said he is, but the guy doesn't hold the single game record for nothing. he gets hot and when he does he actually does have the percentages of a more respectable long distance shooter. there are few pockets during key moments like I refer to above where Kobe actually does morph into that guy when on a heater.

but generally speaking that wasn't really Kobe role it was Fishers. In the playoffs Fisher was an incredible 45% from three on 280 attempts from 2000-2004. i don't think the spot up shooter thing is a knock on either of these bigs, everybody needs shooters and these two bigs have had some good ones.

Not dissing Kobe as a shooter and he DID step up in the playoffs. I'm saying earlier in his career he wasn't a great 3 point shooter, nothing more. Smaller sample of playoffs, while nice.. doesn't define his shooting overall.

Bruno
09-01-2015, 08:30 PM
Not dissing Kobe as a shooter and he DID step up in the playoffs. I'm saying earlier in his career he wasn't a great 3 point shooter, nothing more. Smaller sample of playoffs, while nice.. doesn't define his shooting overall.

I agree it doesn't define his shooting. but legacies are made and broken in the post-season and it's conveniently nice that some of his best stretches from behind the arch were during title runs. early in his career I agree, but a four year run of post-seasons is a good sample in the context of playoffs.

mngopher35
09-01-2015, 08:38 PM
I see that #5 is up already with this one closed but I don't quite get it.

Right now after a quick poll Duncan is down 1 and JazzNC (who has said he can't access polls in the past) voted Duncan in the thread making it even. Last time a few people came in after the poll closed and said Duncan if we needed tie breaker.

Bruno
09-01-2015, 09:35 PM
I see that #5 is up already with this one closed but I don't quite get it.

Right now after a quick poll Duncan is down 1 and JazzNC (who has said he can't access polls in the past) voted Duncan in the thread making it even. Last time a few people came in after the poll closed and said Duncan if we needed tie breaker.
interesting. with 30 votes these polls are going to have a heavy PSD regular skew. which i kind of like when it comes to putting a bunch of old posters together and having a small sample size. all these threads feel more like the old round tables, which were awesome.

SPURSFAN1
09-01-2015, 10:36 PM
Voting is closed but I vote for Duncan. Makes it even.

SPURSFAN1
09-01-2015, 10:37 PM
Wait my vote makes duncan the winner.

Shammyguy3
09-01-2015, 10:40 PM
the poll is closed, move on to #5

FlashBolt
09-02-2015, 01:29 AM
Flea the only thing not debatable is the better IQ and teammate. Their rebounding and passing was pretty much equal in their primes. Almost identical rebound and assist percentages and per game. Also Shaq averaged slightly less turnovers despite more usage/touches. Duncan was more skilled but production> how post game or footwork looks. If one guy only has two moves but shoots 70 percent, that's superior to 60 percent with 10 moves.

You're not accounting for the Hack-A-Shaq, though. Certainly you can't argue that Tim had a better offensive skillset than Shaq. Yes, Shaq was more effective but Tim can spread the floor as well. Shaq would get Hack-a-Shaq'd while Tim (not a great FT shooter but still okay) was relatively safe from that -- and we've seen just how nasty it can get. As for the T/O, there's a perfectly logical reason. Shaq would just get fouled or he would be too strong for anyone to do anything. Tim had to be a bit more crafty with how he played because he wasn't the biggest or strongest. Next, the USG% rate you used is such a double-standard. You can't say Shaq had less T/O despite having more USG%/touches, but then not say Tim Duncan had a higher REB%/AST% despite having less USG%. It's totally not fair. In short, yes, Shaq's size made him who he was but Tim was a better all-around player. There's not one thing you can blame Tim for other than him not shooting the three (? I guess?).

Shaq was an incredible passer from the center position.

Incredible? Nah, he just got double/triple and drew so much attention. Incredible would be Pau/Arvydas tbh.


Wait my vote makes duncan the winner.

Too late... I wish Shammy would wait longer because these results are just misconstrued. Some guys aren't on everyday!

Bruno
09-02-2015, 04:43 PM
tie breakers should be open for longer than 24 hours. it gives people more time to get votes in. based on the last few posts Duncan should probably have won. plus the regular season is two months away why are we rushing to get through a top ten? i guess it depends on how deep Shammy wants to go on the list.

Chronz
09-02-2015, 05:03 PM
lol, yeah it should have remained open, I hadn't yet voted for Shaq but it looks like Duncan had the momentum.

Shammyguy3
09-02-2015, 07:27 PM
my bad guys, should've left it open longer. However, we'll keep it as is. If that many Duncan supporters are out there he should go #5

SPURSFAN1
09-02-2015, 07:46 PM
my bad guys, should've left it open longer. However, we'll keep it as is. If that many Duncan supporters are out there he should go #5

I demand a recount. Serious.

SPURSFAN1
09-02-2015, 07:47 PM
I see bias in shammy.

GREATNESS ONE
09-02-2015, 10:22 PM
Lebron.

:laugh2:

GREATNESS ONE
09-02-2015, 10:23 PM
This place is RIDICULOUS.

Magic Motha Funking Johnson.

Bunch of .........

GREATNESS ONE
09-02-2015, 10:25 PM
Ok Kiddos. I'm out for good✌🏼️

Raps18-19 Champ
09-02-2015, 10:26 PM
:laugh2:

I guess you're laughing at the Wilt choice as well when it's pretty much the same thing.

Sly Guy
09-03-2015, 12:03 AM
I can never choose between these two. It's choosing longevity vs peak performance.

Shammyguy3
09-03-2015, 09:34 AM
I demand a recount. Serious.

good to know you demand a recount...


I see bias in shammy.

... and see bias in a poll, even though you have yet to vote for Duncan in the next thread. Doesn't seem to be that much of an issue with you actually