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Redsox07Champs
08-29-2015, 09:12 AM
Vazquez was looking like the next Yadier Molina in 2014, with his bat still needing some work to be passable. Swihart, however, has a much better bat but his defensive skills and ability to work with pitchers still needs improvement.

Who would you go with for the future?

Bo Sox Fan
08-29-2015, 09:53 AM
Swihart but we can keep both anyways.

The larger sample size I'm beginning to see of Swihart has me forgetting about Vazquez more and more.

GrkGawdofWalkz
08-29-2015, 11:03 AM
Swihart and its not even close. Above adequate on defense and hitting very well. He has confidence behind him as well. Vazquez could replace Hanigan as early as next season.

win red sox
08-29-2015, 02:54 PM
[QUOTE=GrkGawdofWalkz;30286904]Swihart and its not even close. Above adequate on defense and hitting very well. He has confidence behind him as well. Vazquez could replace Hanigan as early as next season.

This. I could see a platoon where Swihart catches 4 times a week and then dhing when he's not behind the plate. save those legs.

ruckus16969
08-29-2015, 05:55 PM
Keeping Vasquez is almost a waste. If he comes back healthy he could almost be the centerpiece for a big time player

AI
08-30-2015, 11:02 PM
I'd keep them both.

Station 13
08-31-2015, 12:28 AM
Swihart is a much better hitter. I'd find something he could play, like 3B/1B/DH/C.

Vazquez will improve our pitching staff. I want him catching.

ruckus16969
08-31-2015, 04:40 AM
Keeping both would be foolish. Either of them healthy would net us extreme value on the trade market.

I trade Vazquez 100% of the time. Swihart is our catcher. The kid is a beast.

This young core we have is exciting. We are going to be very good for a very long time. I can us competing next year.

Bos_Sports4Life
08-31-2015, 04:54 AM
I think people are really overrating the value CV would get us in a trade...Scouts never seemed to be too high on his overall potential and he's coming off a surgery to boot. Jose Molina 2.0 (Even a slightly better version) isn't going to be a centerpiece of a big deal.

Baller005
08-31-2015, 11:10 AM
Vazquez IMO

RedSoxtober
08-31-2015, 03:14 PM
Personally I would punt on the question until at least the trade deadline next year. There are a few factors. First, Vazquez needs to see some game action before you would get any significant trade interest. (And, yes, I think that it would be valuable interest given the general state of catching in MLB. I mean, really, AJ Pierzynski is still finding gigs). Second, Swihart could benefit from some time working with Vazquez and possibly learning from his pitch framing technique. Third, I would really like to see some extended runs of success from the SPs with Swihart behind the plate; a fair bit of their failure earlier this season came from their apparent lack of confidence in him. Fourth, it'd allow a chance to see how the two might be able to co-exist (could Swihart man 1B during time away from the plate as he did with Team USA?).

They're both on cheap, club-controlled contracts. Let it play out a bit.

ruckus16969
08-31-2015, 03:40 PM
Personally I would punt on the question until at least the trade deadline next year. There are a few factors. First, Vazquez needs to see some game action before you would get any significant trade interest. (And, yes, I think that it would be valuable interest given the general state of catching in MLB. I mean, really, AJ Pierzynski is still finding gigs). Second, Swihart could benefit from some time working with Vazquez and possibly learning from his pitch framing technique. Third, I would really like to see some extended runs of success from the SPs with Swihart behind the plate; a fair bit of their failure earlier this season came from their apparent lack of confidence in him. Fourth, it'd allow a chance to see how the two might be able to co-exist (could Swihart man 1B during time away from the plate as he did with Team USA?).

They're both on cheap, club-controlled contracts. Let it play out a bit.

100% I wouldn't rush into anything. But if when it comes down to having 2 catchers that can play everyday on most teams. I would trade one and sign a hanuman type for the back up roll.

Now if Swihart could learn 3B and we could rotate him Shaw and Hanely between 1b 3b C and DH then hell it would make sense to keep both. Maybe Swihart could be like Panda used to be and or Posey is C/3B/1B

Raidaz4Life
08-31-2015, 04:05 PM
Vazquez for me.

ruckus16969
08-31-2015, 04:24 PM
Vazquez for me.

Really??

Raidaz4Life
08-31-2015, 04:52 PM
Really??

As has previously been stated, Swihart would land us more in a trade. Plus I really think the effect Vazquez has on the staff is becoming a tad underrated,

Bo Sox Fan
08-31-2015, 05:26 PM
How has Vazquez effected the pitching staff? He hasn't played a game this season and only played out the final month and a half of last year because the season was a total loss.

bagwell368
08-31-2015, 09:13 PM
Swihart but we can keep both anyways.

The larger sample size I'm beginning to see of Swihart has me forgetting about Vazquez more and more.

Not me. Swihart has awful instincts for a catcher, and his D and game calling are both well below average - actually near the worst in the AL. Problem is, his hitting doesn't project to be good enough to justify him as a keeper away from catcher.

Assuming Vazquez can get and stay healthy, deal Swihart, if not, deal Swihart anyhow - his youth, and potential should draw a lot from some teams.

Station 13
09-01-2015, 10:24 AM
Swihart is 23, not suppose to be here that early. Projected as September call up. He's gone to hit .280, and .330 post allstar. It's hard to judge anything, his game calling and defense can also attributes to these horrendous pitchers that spikes the ball too often, and often they sucks.

Vazquez is about a .250 hitter who draws walks, doesn't strike out, excellent game calling and elite defense. He's my catcher as I said previously. Swihart needs to learn a different position. I want both here.

RedSoxtober
09-01-2015, 11:09 AM
How has Vazquez effected the pitching staff? He hasn't played a game this season and only played out the final month and a half of last year because the season was a total loss.
Not exactly. He came up because AJP was horrible with the staff, couldn't hit, and even worse in the clubhouse. He also caught 55/72 after his promotion which is considerably more than 1.5months.

The only solid point of comparison is Buchholz for whom he caught a similar number of innings as the other catchers (76.2 vs 93.2) with almost 2ER better. Kelly (2.49ERA/25.1IP/CV vs 3.94ERA/32IP/Ross) was also better with a smaller sample. I'm not really considering the AAAA cameo kids who were traded away because they didn't have MLB stuff.


Not me. Swihart has awful instincts for a catcher, and his D and game calling are both well below average - actually near the worst in the AL. Problem is, his hitting doesn't project to be good enough to justify him as a keeper away from catcher.

I don't get this. Now that he's more comfortable behind the plate in MLB (whatever you think of the defensive side), he's hitting pretty well: .341/.398/.471, 6-2B, 1-3B, 1HR, 93PA/21K/7BB. K-rate is a bit high obviously. I'd think that we could find a spot for someone with numbers like that assuming that he could make the transition.

Shaiza
09-01-2015, 02:03 PM
Moving Swihart to a different position sounds fine, but wouldn't that diminish his value a bit? Part of his appeal was that he was a good hitting catcher. If you take that away from him, I'm not sure if he's a "special" prospect.

RedSoxtober
09-01-2015, 02:53 PM
I don't disagree that his value decreases if you move Swihart from behind the plate. I does not disappear, however. I'd be quite fine with a lineup of guys hitting .340/.400/.470 :)

win red sox
09-01-2015, 05:35 PM
I have really enjoyed watching the steadily improvement this year from swihart, obviously he was rushed and could have used another year at pawtucket.

1) the pitch calling will come with experience. As been noted on several scouting reports he has "plus makeup".

2) the passed balls, it does not look like fun trying to catch a knuckle ball

3) pitch framing, he's 20th of 37 with a sample size of at 3,500. he's above the likes of russel martin, salvador perez, and brian mccann. in essence he isn't getting you any extra strikes but he isn't losing them either.

4) at the plate, a lot of success is babip driven but he sprays the ball to all fields and is gifted athlete.

so when i compare vazsquez to swihart, i think of jose moline with a plus arm vs buster posey without the power. swihart struggled at every stop along minor leagues and then adjusted. It wouldn't shock me if was starting the all star game next year.

-Lavigne43-
09-01-2015, 09:07 PM
It's nice to see Swihart performing after a rough start, but there are fire alarms all over his offensive performance. Lets be real, a guy who strikes out a quarter of the time, lacks power numbers, and does not draw a significant number of walks is a scary player. If you look deeper into his splits his offense becomes extremely alarming.

Vs LHP his offensive performance has been extremely weak: .234/.310/.328, yet his peripheral numbers are actually better than his overall peripheral numbers: 8.3 BB% 18.1 K%, .280 BABIP

His numbers vs RHP is carrying his overall offense: .299/.333/.403, yet his peripherals are terrifying: 4.9 BB%, 27.2 K%, .413 BABIP.

This is very alarming. Yes he was rushed, but that was more on the defensive end. I'm very concerned about his offense in the next few seasons. I can't help but get the WMB feel, except WMB walked a little less, hit for wayyy more power, and didn't have such an extreme babip. I think you have to explore trading him while his trade value is very high.

-Lavigne43-
09-01-2015, 09:41 PM
How has Vazquez effected the pitching staff? He hasn't played a game this season and only played out the final month and a half of last year because the season was a total loss.

He played the final 3 months, and he was pretty clearly going to be the starting catcher this year before he ripped his UCL. It was mentioned multiple times in the offseason that part of the reason they Red Sox acquired so many sinkerball pitchers was to take advantage of Vazquez's framing ability behind the plate.

You forget how absurdly good his defense was. He threw out 52% of SB attempts, and was incredibly good at framing pitches http://www.fangraphs.com/blogs/so-christian-vazquez-is-partially-elite/

He's easily one of the best defensive catchers in baseball. I saw the other day that the Angels think he's the best defensive catcher in the league.

win red sox
09-01-2015, 09:41 PM
It's nice to see Swihart performing after a rough start, but there are fire alarms all over his offensive performance. Lets be real, a guy who strikes out a quarter of the time, lacks power numbers, and does not draw a significant number of walks is a scary player. If you look deeper into his splits his offense becomes extremely alarming.

Vs LHP his offensive performance has been extremely weak: .234/.310/.328, yet his peripheral numbers are actually better than his overall peripheral numbers: 8.3 BB% 18.1 K%, .280 BABIP

His numbers vs RHP is carrying his overall offense: .299/.333/.403, yet his peripherals are terrifying: 4.9 BB%, 27.2 K%, .413 BABIP.

This is very alarming. Yes he was rushed, but that was more on the defensive end. I'm very concerned about his offense in the next few seasons. I can't help but get the WMB feel, except WMB walked a little less, hit for wayyy more power, and didn't have such an extreme babip. I think you have to explore trading him while his trade value is very high.

These are all good points. something else to look at it has improved gradually this year

may wRC+38
june wRC+86
july wRC+90
aug wRC+160 21.2k% 9.1bb%

bagwell368
09-02-2015, 09:45 PM
Swihart is 23, not suppose to be here that early. Projected as September call up. He's gone to hit .280, and .330 post allstar. It's hard to judge anything, his game calling and defense can also attributes to these horrendous pitchers that spikes the ball too often, and often they sucks.

Vazquez is about a .250 hitter who draws walks, doesn't strike out, excellent game calling and elite defense. He's my catcher as I said previously. Swihart needs to learn a different position. I want both here.

Swihart could play what? 3B, 1B, LF, DH - all heavy offensive positions. I don't think anyone takes the Sox seriously, so nobody is trying to figure the book on Swihart, let's see what he does after coaches look over him in the offseason and figure what he can't hit.

Pitchers and catchers are twined together in many complex ways. I have no doubt that the the biggest reason not given general credit for this rotten year is Vazquez being gone. He's a kid too. He's got only 495 games at catcher in the Minors/Majors, and Swihart has 346 - more ML games even, even though Vazquez is 28 months older.

As I've written a bunch of times, I like CV at C for 3.5-4 out of 5 games, Swihart for the rest, and then Swihart at other positions including PH to get his bat out there. If he turns out to be an elite hitter, you get him away from catcher totally and get some salty back-up for CV.

I don't care if CV is a .249/.309/.395 hitter if he's a top 3 defensive catcher. That's not much lower than Varitek, and CV has a far better arm than Tek ever did, and CV shows signs of being an excellent handler too.

I'll take Gary Carter or Jim Sundberg over Piazza any day of the week for my team.

ruckus16969
09-14-2015, 03:41 PM
This shouldn't even be a conversation. Swihart is the guy for the job with either Vasquez or Hanigan backing him up. Swihart is getting better and better on both sides of the ball. If he stays healthy I'd bet that he is a top 5 catcher in the league.

If Vasquez shows he is healthy you have to trade him. Teams love the kid and he will have tremendous trade value.

The other part of this is that this team is really clicking. Why mess with that. U.S. We need to make trades for pitchers but I wouldn't use any position player besides Hanley or Pablo. Both probably have negative trade value.

Guys on this team I would consider trading

Vasquez
Buch
Miley
Owens
Johnson
Marrero
Kelly
Porcello
Taz
Wright
Hanley
Pablo

RedSoxtober
09-15-2015, 08:48 AM
^ If the only guys that you would trade are ones that you think are junk, what do you think you'll get in return?

Bo Sox Fan
09-15-2015, 02:02 PM
^ If the only guys that you would trade are ones that you think are junk, what do you think you'll get in return?

Some people just like to blab, and it would have actually been easier to create a list of players they'd consider untouchable.

Instead he lists the entire roster, lol.

ruckus16969
09-15-2015, 04:23 PM
I don't think they are junk. Besides HanRam an Pablo. I just don't see room on the roster for them if we are going to add to it.

Vasquez is going to be very productive but we have SwiHart. If we upgrade the rotation with say 2 pieces then 2 or 3 starters have to go Clay or Miley or Porcello or Owens or Wright or Johnson

Marrero could be a nice contributor some day but we have XB.

It's good problem to have. I'm not saying all will or should be traded just the guys I wouldn't mind seeing gone.

As for you comment about blabbing just shows your maturity. Maybe someday you will grow up. Maybe not

Bo Sox Fan
09-15-2015, 05:39 PM
I don't think they are junk. Besides HanRam an Pablo. I just don't see room on the roster for them if we are going to add to it.

Vasquez is going to be very productive but we have SwiHart. If we upgrade the rotation with say 2 pieces then 2 or 3 starters have to go Clay or Miley or Porcello or Owens or Wright or Johnson

Marrero could be a nice contributor some day but we have XB.

It's good problem to have. I'm not saying all will or should be traded just the guys I wouldn't mind seeing gone.

As for you comment about blabbing just shows your maturity. Maybe someday you will grow up. Maybe not

This coming from the simple minded.

As for the topic at hand, after seeing the confidence steadily grow from this young offence in the second half of the season, I'm leaning towards trading Swihart since his trade stock is absurdly high heading into the offseason. He alone could be the center piece of a cost controlled ace and his bat will not be missed since the lineup is proving it can rake more days than not whether Hanley and Sandoval are a part of it or not.

I'll live with the tandem of Vazquez and Hanigan if it means seeing Sonny Gray or Matt Harvey in Boston.

ruckus16969
09-15-2015, 06:32 PM
I'm not going to let you bait me in to key board battle.

Your opinion isn't a bad one neither is it right or wrong for that matter. I personally would rather have a catcher that can hit as long as he is at least avg on the offensive side of the plate. Imo we need all the offense we can get. What if Shaw don't keep it up. What if JBJ's good month was a fluke. What if Pedey goes down . We have had a great month from allot of guys. But it's been a month maybe a lil longer. I think it's crazy to trade Swihart when we have so many guys at the farm that both teams would be very interested in and are blocked for 5 years.

Swihart isn't a slouch on the defensive side either he has steadily got better. And I like to see him stay.

RedSoxtober
09-16-2015, 09:17 AM
I'll suggest again that there's simply no reason to decide now. 50th percentile catcher (min 100AB) in MLB this year is roughly .235/.300/.380. Vazquez should be able to keep up at least that pace while providing top-5 defense at the position. The offense is weaker with him as compared to the others and there is at least a short term question about how he bounces back from TJ surgery. Swihart is the top hitting catcher (for avg, min 250PA) in the AL this year with a noticeable drop defensively from Vazquez. He boosts the offense but it may not be purely coincidental that a number of pitchers struggled when his innings behind the plate ramped up. Hanigan fits somewhere in between but pitchers loved throwing to him. Together the trio would cost the Sox less than $5M (assuming that one stays at AAA for the short term).

IMO the best approach will be to wait it out. If the MLB pitching begins to have better success with a defensively improved Swihart then he may be the guy. Likewise if Vazquez can continue his career track record of slow starts at the next level followed by steady production (.265/.344/.392) then it's hard to argue against an elite defender with above average production for the position. Hanigan is the odd man out but you can find a glove-first catcher to replace him as a backup for his $3.5M price tag all over MLB.

ruckus16969
09-16-2015, 06:17 PM
I agree that we should Definitely shouldn't rush to any decision on this topic.

Certainly fun to talk about though.

bagwell368
09-16-2015, 09:20 PM
I'm not going to let you bait me in to key board battle.

Your opinion isn't a bad one neither is it right or wrong for that matter. I personally would rather have a catcher that can hit as long as he is at least avg on the offensive side of the plate. Imo we need all the offense we can get. What if Shaw don't keep it up. What if JBJ's good month was a fluke. What if Pedey goes down . We have had a great month from allot of guys. But it's been a month maybe a lil longer. I think it's crazy to trade Swihart when we have so many guys at the farm that both teams would be very interested in and are blocked for 5 years.

Swihart isn't a slouch on the defensive side either he has steadily got better. And I like to see him stay.

We need all the offense we can get? In order of importance - C, SS, 2B, CF are the 4 most important positions for defense. We are getting or will get well above average offense from our SS, 2B, and CF positions. Therefore we should consider strongly having a very strong defensive player at C. Swihart might be improving his defense to some extent, but I seriously doubt he'll ever be a match for CV on that front. Swihart will get more in trade than CV, so if one must go and we are pretty well stacked bat wise (or will be when we get FA's in at 1B and 3B).

Until CV is cleared medically we should do nothing with them.

ruckus16969
09-16-2015, 11:16 PM
Here's a pretty decent article

http://boston.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2015/09/11/rebuilding-the-red-sox-whos-behind-the-plate-in-2016/

Towelie
09-17-2015, 01:01 PM
**** Vazquez! I love you Blake!

ruckus16969
09-18-2015, 12:27 AM
Where the **** you been Towlie

Miss your Fantasy league.

bagwell368
09-21-2015, 12:05 PM
Here's a pretty decent article

http://boston.locals.baseballprospectus.com/2015/09/11/rebuilding-the-red-sox-whos-behind-the-plate-in-2016/

Disagree. The writers POV and bias for Swihart are manifest throughout the article.

Framing pitches is one of the more learnable skills. What about % of throwing out runners, pitcher ERA, fielding range? Framing is maybe 7% of the whole thing and BTW we never heard about CV's ability to frame or anything else for that matter. All we get is the operation and a dire warning about how its impossible to know the outcome for a catcher. I guess that meant to him he could stroke the object of his affection and ignore the other guy. Obviously objectivity and even handed analysis are not a key factor to this person - why trouble us with these details? This genius made the choice of who is better on his very own, without showing all of his work, or maybe that was it?

Thanks for bringing this guy to my attention, another F-in' clown to avoid.

BCpatsox18
09-22-2015, 12:32 PM
Swihart, and it isn't close for me. Swiharts been a very good hitter, much better than the average at his position. Every coach he's had along his trip up the minors lauded his makeup, ability to make adjustments, and his improvement on D. He led the league in AA in throwing out base runners a few years ago, and although hell (probably) never be as good as Vazquez, pitch framing can be learned. I'll take Blake 10/10 for the future, and ideally trade Vazquez when he proves he's healthy

Bo Sox Fan
09-22-2015, 08:19 PM
Look at the defence up the middle in 2016 with a now vastly improved Bogaerts.

C Vazquez
CF Bradley Jr.
2B Pedroia
SS Bogaerts

Ever sick. Assuming a full bill of health, that's 4 potential gold gloves while Betts and Castillo will obviously hold their own.

bagwell368
09-23-2015, 06:11 AM
Look at the defence up the middle in 2016 with a now vastly improved Bogaerts.

C Vazquez
CF Bradley Jr.
2B Pedroia
SS Bogaerts

Ever sick. Assuming a full bill of health, that's 4 potential gold gloves while Betts and Castillo will obviously hold their own.

Agree. But what about Ramirez at 1B and Fatty Panda at 3B - that's at least another GG... ahem.

RedSoxtober
09-23-2015, 10:21 AM
I hope that we see something of HanRam at 1B before the season is out. It will be easier to trade him if he can play a position in the field.

MG956
09-23-2015, 03:12 PM
I hope that we see something of HanRam at 1B before the season is out. It will be easier to trade him if he can play a position in the field.

He is taking one from the Buchholz playbook and not playing until he is 100%. I can't say anything else without being rude...

RedSoxtober
09-24-2015, 09:34 AM
^ That has been his reputation and, unfortunately, he is doing nothing to break from it. However, he did say earlier this week (Monday night, I think) that he felt ready to play 1B and was anticipating a meeting with the brass to talk about it on Tuesday. DD took the unusual move of placing him on the DL in September (not really necessary with expanded rosters); at the time he said something to the effect of "protecting themselves from one another." Taken together they seem to suggest the Sox playing just as big a part in his absence as he is. I'm not sure why they'd do it... maybe just as "two can play at that game" kind of thing?

bagwell368
04-13-2016, 11:07 AM
Well, there is the obvious (the SP's as a group are crap)...

The bizzare - Travis Shaw being PH for every day

and the no doubt: Swihart is a miserable defensive catcher. None of the pitchers want to pitch to him (according the Sox radio voices), and they chased after CV in ST, and avoided Swihart. There isn't enough yet for solid metrics, but based on what I've seen at best Swihart is -.5 RPG vs average. Versus CV? He's about a full run off. He doesn't have it - he can't even catch the ball clean for gods sake.

Get ready for Swihart at 1B, PH, DH, or dealt before everyone sees he's inept with the glove. He doesn't call a good game either (assuming it's him). Then of course he doesn't seem confident, nor does he "sell" anything.

Top 3 D at C, with 70% O is way better to have than ~15% on O and bottom 15% on D - any era, any day.

RedSoxtober
04-13-2016, 11:28 AM
After a couple tough days catching for Blake Swihart and another impressive day for Christian Vazquez during his rehab assignment with Triple-A Pawtucket, Red Sox manager John Farrell hinted Vazquez’ return could be sooner than expected.

Vazquez, a great receiver, drew three walks Tuesday for Pawtucket in his fifth rehab game. He’s 6-for-13 with seven walks and two strikeouts.

“That’s part of discussions that are ongoing,” Farrell said after a 9-5 Red Sox loss to the Orioles on Tuesday. “There's nothing imminent right now. If we were to make any kind of decision, we've got to have further conversation with him.”

Swihart didn't come up with a pop fly Tuesday at Fenway Park in Mark Trumbo’s sixth inning at-bat, which ended in a game-tying home run.Boston Herald

What's not mentioned in this article, for whatever reason, is the fact that CV threw out a batter but also had a passed ball. He had a throwing error the other day as well. I don't mean to talk him down but he might need a little time to knock the rust off at game speed.

RedSoxtober
04-13-2016, 11:33 AM
This is going to be an uncomfortable situation for the Sox at best. Would they consider swapping CV and Rusney and going with three catchers? There was some mention of that at the end of the spring. That might be a way to ease Swihart's workload and maybe hide his deficiencies.

Moving Swihart could also help the other end of the biggest problem: landing a decent SP.

-Lavigne43-
04-13-2016, 06:12 PM
Would the offense Swihart has demonstrated thus far in his big league career earn him a starting job at any position other than catcher? The answer is no, and that is a problem for him. He needs to be one of the top offensive catchers in the game to be worth his defensive liabilities. If he hit like Shaw then I would have no problem with him catching, although it may be wise in that situation to give him some games at a corner infield spot. Swihart is a bottom of the lineup hitter though. As of right now, Vazquez is the superior player, and it's not close.

bagwell368
04-13-2016, 08:31 PM
This is going to be an uncomfortable situation for the Sox at best. Would they consider swapping CV and Rusney and going with three catchers? There was some mention of that at the end of the spring. That might be a way to ease Swihart's workload and maybe hide his deficiencies.

Moving Swihart could also help the other end of the biggest problem: landing a decent SP.

Swihart, an A spec, and a B+ spec should get a #2 with a couple of years of contract control left from a team going nowhere. #2 SP's are hard to find. Swihart alone is going to get you an 8th inning guy or a meh 5/6th SP (and we got plenty of those).

I don't think CV is ready for another week or two, but he'll be here sooner than that. So it's either Swihart or Rusney down. Speaking of Rusney, what league did he play in? A softball league or a junkball league with no pitches over 90 MPH allowed - good god he looks horrific against a real FB.

RedSoxtober
04-14-2016, 09:00 AM
Swihart, an A spec, and a B+ spec should get a #2 with a couple of years of contract control left from a team going nowhere. #2 SP's are hard to find. Swihart alone is going to get you an 8th inning guy or a meh 5/6th SP (and we got plenty of those).

I certainly did not mean to suggest that Swihart would get a decent SP back on his own. To be honest, I would rather add one of the current SPs with some control (preferably Buchholz for anyone who'll bite on being able to turn him) and probably another prospect. I keep thinking that Marco Hernandez might be a good trade piece. He's not going to be the headliner of any deal but he's stringing together a lot of good PA with better contact rates than a typical middle IF. Looks like a very good complimentary piece in a trade to me.

bagwell368
04-14-2016, 12:08 PM
I have really enjoyed watching the steadily improvement this year from swihart, obviously he was rushed and could have used another year at pawtucket.

1) the pitch calling will come with experience. As been noted on several scouting reports he has "plus makeup".

2) the passed balls, it does not look like fun trying to catch a knuckle ball

3) pitch framing, he's 20th of 37 with a sample size of at 3,500. he's above the likes of russel martin, salvador perez, and brian mccann. in essence he isn't getting you any extra strikes but he isn't losing them either.

4) at the plate, a lot of success is babip driven but he sprays the ball to all fields and is gifted athlete.

so when i compare vazsquez to swihart, i think of jose moline with a plus arm vs buster posey without the power. swihart struggled at every stop along minor leagues and then adjusted. It wouldn't shock me if was starting the all star game next year.

It would surprise the hell out of me.

bagwell368
04-14-2016, 12:17 PM
I'm not going to let you bait me in to key board battle.

Swihart isn't a slouch on the defensive side either he has steadily got better.

He's brutal. He drops pop ups, plain old fastballs clang off the edge of his glove, he doesn't command respect of the staff, he's not in control, he doesn't seem to put any effort into framing. His arm/release is below average. The Sox radio guys two days ago before the game were going on and on an on about how the pitchers all want to throw to CV.

Here it is: Swihart will never be average or better behind the plate. In his best 5 full years he's likely to be a top 5 ML catcher with the bat. I say he's a bottom 20% catcher on D, how many RPG is that to his staff? -.4, -.6? Take that off his offense. Now what is he? A guy that makes all your pitchers look worse then they are.

CV if healthy could be a top 3 defender ML wide for years - that might be +.6 RPG Say he hits .245/.325/.295. All your pitchers look better. His net value to the Sox on the field will exceed Swihart - and he'll be doing it the way you want - D first. Even more important than D at SS - D at C.