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Shammyguy3
08-28-2015, 12:21 PM
We do this normally every year at the start of the summer. Since nobody has taken the liberty to continue it, I'll take the reigns and get us started. We'll skip #1, because it's the most obvious consensus there is in sports. We'll start at who everyone thinks is the 2nd best player of all time.

If you think someone should be added to the poll PLEASE don't ***** about it. Just mention in the thread that he should be added to the next poll and if the player's all-time standing is relatively close to the number we're at there shouldn't be a problem adding him to the poll.


So, who does everyone have?

1. Michael Jordan
2. Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
3. Wilt Chamberlain
4. ?

DanG
08-28-2015, 02:49 PM
Shaquille O'Neal

Ultimate finals performer

Underrated defender

4x champion, 3x finals MVP. Was a GREAT player for 13 seasons. Just unstoppable.

naps
08-28-2015, 03:32 PM
Shaq. Greatest unstoppable force in the history of the game. Could have been the GOAT if he was serious about his body. Still plenty of accolades and longevity. Took his game up another level in the post-season.

FlashBolt
08-28-2015, 04:33 PM
Went for Tim Duncan here.

One of the greatest players.
Best PF ever (not even close).
Still winning and producing results (last year was an amazing playoff series for him).
Longevity. He's still making All-NBA first teams and defensive teams as well.
5x NBA Champion.
3x NBA Finals MVP.
2x NBA MVP.

His 2002-2003 NBA Playoff season was just legendary.

I don't disagree with Shaq but I don't see how Shaq achieved more. Even Shaq said he wanted to surpass Tim. He's been the anchor for the Spurs franchise since the draft and the team has never looked back since despite a change in teammates.

kdspurman
08-28-2015, 04:55 PM
Went for Tim Duncan here.

One of the greatest players.
Best PF ever (not even close).
Still winning and producing results (last year was an amazing playoff series for him).
Longevity. He's still making All-NBA first teams and defensive teams as well.
5x NBA Champion.
3x NBA Finals MVP.
2x NBA MVP.

His 2002-2003 NBA Playoff season was just legendary.

I don't disagree with Shaq but I don't see how Shaq achieved more. Even Shaq said he wanted to surpass Tim. He's been the anchor for the Spurs franchise since the draft and the team has never looked back since despite a change in teammates.

My sentiments as well, I was going to go w/TD after Wilt. Continues to be a top notch defender, still raises his game in the playoffs and a whole lot of intangibles on top of an already amazing resume

mngopher35
08-28-2015, 05:18 PM
This comes down to Shaq/Timmy for me. I think up until a few years ago I normally had Shaq in this spot but I have shifted a little bit toward Timmy with his longevity/Defensive impact.

Hawkeye15
08-28-2015, 05:23 PM
Shaq. Greatest unstoppable force in the history of the game. Could have been the GOAT if he was serious about his body. Still plenty of accolades and longevity. Took his game up another level in the post-season.

this

Chronz
08-28-2015, 05:38 PM
I always go against my word when discussing this spot, simply because its hard for me not to value dominant peak runs but Duncan's prime run has been spectacular. Im leaning towards Timmy this time just cuz I want to honor my word, hes been too good for far too long and I promised myself if he had another stellar season I would rank him higher.

We're splitting hairs here so I need more time to think about it. Whenever Im this confounded I usually just rank the best seasons had by both and work from there.

naps
08-29-2015, 04:21 AM
Im leaning towards Timmy this time just cuz I want to honor my word, hes been too good for far too long.

Well an argument can be made for Shaq being great for just as long (92 to 09, as a Sun he was still outstanding).


We're splitting hairs here so I need more time to think about it. Whenever Im this confounded I usually just rank the best seasons had by both and work from there.

That's how it should be for most people. Their longevity and accolades are close. So going by peak is the next best parameter.

Shammyguy3
08-29-2015, 11:53 AM
i'm torn btw Duncan and Shaq, although I can see people voting for Lebron, Russell, AND Hakeem here too.

xbrackattackx
08-29-2015, 01:25 PM
It's Duncan,Russell or Shaq for me here. Gonna think it over.

KnicksorBust
08-29-2015, 01:33 PM
One of the greatest players.
Best PF ever (not even close).
Still winning and producing results (last year was an amazing playoff series for him).
Longevity. He's still making All-NBA first teams and defensive teams as well.
5x NBA Champion.
3x NBA Finals MVP.
2x NBA MVP.

His 2002-2003 NBA Playoff season was just legendary.


One of the greatest players. (I would hope so we're ranking the #4 player of all-time)
Best PG ever (not even close).
5 NBA champion (1980, 1982, 1985, 19871988)
3 NBA Finals MVP (1980, 1982, 1987)
3 NBA Most Valuable Player (1987, 19891990)

His 1980 NBA Finals was just legendary.

Magic Johnson.

I have Duncan ahead of Shaq.

Quinnsanity
08-29-2015, 04:18 PM
Shaq. Greatest unstoppable force in the history of the game. Could have been the GOAT if he was serious about his body. Still plenty of accolades and longevity. Took his game up another level in the post-season.

That's the thing. He wasn't serious about his body. He was a petty teammate. As great as he was, as dominant as he was, the negatives are just kind of overwhelming. Is he still a top-10 player? Yea, give or take, but at this level you're talking about players that are nearly flawless.

Magic doesn't make sense to me either. Honestly I always thought he was overrated. Fantastic player, but I'm not sure what he gives you that Jason Kidd doesn't. Hard for me to get behind a point guard who can't shoot and didn't play defense as one of the four best players ever.

Between Bron, Bird, Russell and Duncan for me. Bird's longevity knocks him out for me, if he would've played a few more years I don't think there's a question he's in the top five. Russell and Duncan's circumstances were so perfect that it's hard to objectively judge them as players. I think if you'd stuck them on mediocre teams they're still legends, but they lose a bit of historical cache. So I'm taking Bron here and feeling good about it. Probably the most versatile player of all time (Magic's size only stronger and faster, can defend at least four positions at an elite level, developed that jump shot quite as he aged, no area of the game that he does not grade out extremely well in). The knocks against him are circumstantial for the most part (beyond that dreadful 2011 Finals). If I'm building a team and can get one of these guys knowing nothing else about rosters, I'm taking LeBron.

KnicksorBust
08-29-2015, 07:09 PM
Magic doesn't make sense to me either. Honestly I always thought he was overrated. Fantastic player, but I'm not sure what he gives you that Jason Kidd doesn't.

20ppg on 61% TS% vs. 15ppg on 51% TS%

call the cops there has been a murder

Catfish1314
08-29-2015, 08:19 PM
Magic doesn't make sense to me either. Honestly I always thought he was overrated. Fantastic player, but I'm not sure what he gives you that Jason Kidd doesn't. Hard for me to get behind a point guard who can't shoot and didn't play defense as one of the four best players ever.

Versatility, an absurd postseason resume, scary efficiency for a guard, and about seven inches.

Anyway, I went Duncan over Magic here. He's been a complete game changer at both ends for the better part of two decades.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-29-2015, 08:25 PM
Larry Bird

Bruno
08-29-2015, 08:48 PM
Well an argument can be made for Shaq being great for just as long (92 to 09, as a Sun he was still outstanding).

2009 was a late career outlier in the sense that he didn't produce at that level in 2007 or 2008.

KnicksorBust
08-29-2015, 10:17 PM
Magic doesn't make sense to me either. Honestly I always thought he was overrated. Fantastic player, but I'm not sure what he gives you that Jason Kidd doesn't. Hard for me to get behind a point guard who can't shoot and didn't play defense as one of the four best players ever.

Versatility, an absurd postseason resume, scary efficiency for a guard, and about seven inches.

Anyway, I went Duncan over Magic here. He's been a complete game changer at both ends for the better part of two decades.

Threw your vote away. Shaq is going to win now and we have to debate Duncan and Magic next.

KnicksorBust
08-29-2015, 10:19 PM
Larry Bird

Does it bother you at all that Bird's back ended his career earlier than say Duncan or Kobe?

FlashBolt
08-30-2015, 01:53 PM
I rethought this through and just have a hard time putting Shaq over Tim. I'm not really understanding that at all. Tim has the same amount of FMVP's, more rings, better defensive player, more versatility, more MVP's, just more than Shaq at pretty much anything. Shaq was a better player at their prime but over a span of an entire career, Tim is just a more accomplished player and has proven that year after year. I would put Shaq at #5, though. Hakeem at #6.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-30-2015, 02:20 PM
Does it bother you at all that Bird's back ended his career earlier than say Duncan or Kobe?

I more look at who the best players were not how long they played. Playing 15-18 years is great but that does not make a player a better player in my eyes.

How many guys put up 24ppg-10pg-6apg-2steals while shooting 50%fg-90%ft-38%3pt while having a rep as the clutchest player in the league and won 3 straight MVPs?

I hated hated hated Larry Bird when he played. Wait let me add one more hate. I hated him more than any player ever in the NBA but I realize my hate was in large part because he was that good. I rooted for everyone to beat him but he was like a zombie that would not die in games. That playoff vs Detroit ("Bird steals the ball") was something I went through over and over again while rooting against Bird. This is a guy that could shoot free throws blindfolded and make more of them than some of the guys PSD votes ahead of him. In fact he used to practice 3 point shots blind folded.

flea
08-30-2015, 02:34 PM
Duncan, should have been 3rd.

mngopher35
08-30-2015, 03:46 PM
Well since it is on the final day and Timmy is making a push I will try and make an argument for anyone on the fence. First of all I think we should look at how many seasons these two have been very good, aka capable of leading their team in some fashion or being a good next option. I think 2006 is the last year I would give Shaq that rep since he missed so many games in 07 and didn't do much in 4 playoff games. This gives him 13 years of great play. Duncan on the other hand has arguably been the best player on the spurs until about last season. I think that he has been the anchor on defense and a good offensive option for all 18 years he has played (lowest ws/48 .16, lowest PER 21, highest drtg 101). So while I see some saying longevity isn't a big deal think of what Duncan has done these last 5 seasons and it is a bonus when comparing him to someone like Shaq (or even Magic). This can at least help to make up for some of the advantage peak shaq had.

Then when we look at accolades I think Duncan wins again pretty handily. Duncan has one more ring, 2 more First team all NBa selections, 8 first team all defensive teams (none for Shaq), one more MVP. Now the MVP thing can be a bit iffy here since I think many agree Shaq could have gotten another one or two if he didn't sit so much to start regular seasons. Overall though I think that Duncan definitely has the edge in accolades to go with longevity.

Obviously Shaq had a better peak as he was arguably the most unstoppable force the game has seen. With that said are those 5-6 dominant years enough to overtake the accolades, longevity/consistency, and defensive dominance of Duncan? I would argue that while close it just isn't enough anymore. Duncan has always been a better defender and is about on the same level passing/rebounding. Shaq could draw in/change a defense and score at a better rate for his peak but outside of that Duncan is right there with him (or better) in many ways. Shaq was more impactful offensively than Duncan but Duncan can say the same about defense. Duncan's ring in 2003 was as impressive as any of Shaq's runs as the man too so while peak Shaq was better generally speaking, Duncan has hit that level of play.

Evil_Empire
08-30-2015, 05:37 PM
Shaq's best seasons make everyone else sans Lebron look pathetic not to mention his explosive playoff runs and domination on both ends of the floor. He required legitimate triple teams and a complete defensive overhaul, mainly hiring as many giant stiffs as one could afford to foul the guy.

naps
08-30-2015, 07:21 PM
There is not a player I would take over prime Shaq in NBA history, well may be Jordan but that's about it, and his prime lasted pretty long.

KnicksorBust
08-31-2015, 06:02 AM
Does it bother you at all that Bird's back ended his career earlier than say Duncan or Kobe?

I more look at who the best players were not how long they played. Playing 15-18 years is great but that does not make a player a better player in my eyes.

How many guys put up 24ppg-10pg-6apg-2steals while shooting 50%fg-90%ft-38%3pt while having a rep as the clutchest player in the league and won 3 straight MVPs?

I hated hated hated Larry Bird when he played. Wait let me add one more hate. I hated him more than any player ever in the NBA but I realize my hate was in large part because he was that good. I rooted for everyone to beat him but he was like a zombie that would not die in games. That playoff vs Detroit ("Bird steals the ball") was something I went through over and over again while rooting against Bird. This is a guy that could shoot free throws blindfolded and make more of them than some of the guys PSD votes ahead of him. In fact he used to practice 3 point shots blind folded.

But isn't there a tipping point somewhere? If Bird's career was only 84-86 would you still feel the same?

kdspurman
08-31-2015, 11:48 AM
That's the thing. He wasn't serious about his body. He was a petty teammate. As great as he was, as dominant as he was, the negatives are just kind of overwhelming. Is he still a top-10 player? Yea, give or take, but at this level you're talking about players that are nearly flawless.

Magic doesn't make sense to me either. Honestly I always thought he was overrated. Fantastic player, but I'm not sure what he gives you that Jason Kidd doesn't. Hard for me to get behind a point guard who can't shoot and didn't play defense as one of the four best players ever.

Between Bron, Bird, Russell and Duncan for me. Bird's longevity knocks him out for me, if he would've played a few more years I don't think there's a question he's in the top five. Russell and Duncan's circumstances were so perfect that it's hard to objectively judge them as players. I think if you'd stuck them on mediocre teams they're still legends, but they lose a bit of historical cache. So I'm taking Bron here and feeling good about it. Probably the most versatile player of all time (Magic's size only stronger and faster, can defend at least four positions at an elite level, developed that jump shot quite as he aged, no area of the game that he does not grade out extremely well in). The knocks against him are circumstantial for the most part (beyond that dreadful 2011 Finals). If I'm building a team and can get one of these guys knowing nothing else about rosters, I'm taking LeBron.

Re: the last sentence, I would disagree just cause I saw what TD did with that roster in 2003, and I don't think Lebron has had a run quite like that. (Nor has TD had a finals like LBJ did in 2011) Last season was close for him in terms of how he did it all for them in the finals however.

SLY WILLIAMS
08-31-2015, 12:50 PM
But isn't there a tipping point somewhere? If Bird's career was only 84-86 would you still feel the same?

If Bird only played 3 seasons I would still view him as a great player but I would view him as ineligible for this type of ranking. I would only consider guys that played at least 8-10 seasons.

tredigs
08-31-2015, 01:31 PM
If you'd like a tipping point vote without a re-vote, count me in for Duncan.

JAZZNC
08-31-2015, 02:07 PM
I guess I have to go Duncan. I view longevity a little higher than most and because of that I have to give the nod to Duncan over Shaq.

5ass
08-31-2015, 02:52 PM
Duncan

MTar786
09-01-2015, 05:11 AM
shaq