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View Full Version : Current Top-10 Players in the NBA (#6)



Shammyguy3
08-22-2015, 12:29 PM
Choose from the poll options and debate who the current Top Ten best players in the NBA are. This should not be based on who had the best season last year, but rather who you would choose for a team in order to win right now.

Additional options will be added as we go along based on who will realistically receive votes at that level (or if players are requested in the thread).

1. Lebron (73% of the vote)
2. Durant (55% of the vote)
3. Curry (55% of the vote)
4. Davis (50% of the vote)
5. Harden (57% of the vote)
6. ?

Shammyguy3
08-22-2015, 02:08 PM
to me, it's Westbrook by a hair over Chris Paul. CP3 is more efficient with the ball and as a shooter, but Westbrook's tenacity is something that needs to be accounted for. He rebounded over 11% as a point guard, had a 47% assist rate, only a 14.3tov% on a 38.4usg%.

xnick5757
08-22-2015, 02:37 PM
Got to go with Paul over Westy here (with Westy going at 7).

After those two is where it gets fun, with no true "superstars" left

Scoots
08-22-2015, 02:45 PM
Got to go with Paul over Westy here (with Westy going at 7).

After those two is where it gets fun, with no true "superstars" left

Blake defenders are going to come for you!

RLundi
08-22-2015, 02:55 PM
to me, it's Westbrook by a hair over Chris Paul. CP3 is more efficient with the ball and as a shooter, but Westbrook's tenacity is something that needs to be accounted for. He rebounded over 11% as a point guard, had a 47% assist rate, only a 14.3tov% on a 38.4usg%.

No way. Westbrook had a lot in the way of nice counting stats but CP3 trumped him easily in win shares, ws/48 and nearly every single shooting percentage.

Chris Paul easily here for me.

RLundi
08-22-2015, 03:29 PM
PER
Westbrook- 29.1
Paul- 26

WS
Westbrook- 10.2
Paul- 16.1

WS/48
Westbrook- .222
Paul- .270

VORP
Westbrook- 7.6
Paul- 6.9

BPM
Westbrook- 11
Paul- 7.5

TS%
Westbrook- .536
Paul- .596

AST%
Westbrook- 47
Paul- 47.4

REB%
Westbrook- 11.4
Paul- 7.4

TO%
Westbrook- 14.3
Paul- 12.7

Disregard my earlier comment. My mistake Shammyguy. I guess it's closer than I originally considered. Even so, I'd still take CP3 but I see why someone would take WB. I think Paul's numbers make a more compelling argument though. Just my 2 pennies.

Sadds The Gr8
08-22-2015, 04:00 PM
Westbrook by a hair. REALLY close tho. No problem if CP3 wins

MELO 15
08-22-2015, 05:26 PM
For Lamacus, Demarcus, Gasol, & Kahwi to be on this list and not Melo is rediculous! & dont tell me it's because he plays no D, because if thats the case, a lot of u guys in here who voted Harden would fall in the category of HYPOCRITE, Im fine with the Harden pick,but what im not fine with is the fact that Melo isn't even on the list.

MELO 15
08-22-2015, 05:31 PM
Oh, and don't give me that write in check box, because there is no way u consider the 4 guys I mentioned over Melo, as if Melo is no longer relevant or in the top 10 talk,lets be real people. Even if u hate or dislike the man, there is no reason he shouldn't be in the top 10 talk.

Shammyguy3
08-22-2015, 05:40 PM
PER
Westbrook- 29.1
Paul- 26

WS
Westbrook- 10.2
Paul- 16.1

WS/48
Westbrook- .222
Paul- .270

VORP
Westbrook- 7.6
Paul- 6.9

BPM
Westbrook- 11
Paul- 7.5

TS%
Westbrook- .536
Paul- .596

AST%
Westbrook- 47
Paul- 47.4

REB%
Westbrook- 11.4
Paul- 7.4

TO%
Westbrook- 14.3
Paul- 12.7

Disregard my earlier comment. My mistake Shammyguy. I guess it's closer than I originally considered. Even so, I'd still take CP3 but I see why someone would take WB. I think Paul's numbers make a more compelling argument though. Just my 2 pennies.

I could be swayed either way, i think Chris Paul has never been as aggressive as he should be with the Clippers in the playoffs. I never see that problem with Westbrook (it's his downfall when it comes to his efficiency numbers actually). It's super close, i have no qualms with Westbrook dropping to #7


For Lamacus, Demarcus, Gasol, & Kahwi to be on this list and not Melo is rediculous! & dont tell me it's because he plays no D, because if thats the case, a lot of u guys in here who voted Harden would fall in the category of HYPOCRITE, Im fine with the Harden pick,but what im not fine with is the fact that Melo isn't even on the list.


Oh, and don't give me that write in check box, because there is no way u consider the 4 guys I mentioned over Melo, as if Melo is no longer relevant or in the top 10 talk,lets be real people. Even if u hate or dislike the man, there is no reason he shouldn't be in the top 10 talk.


Because I hate Melo, obviously.

After CP3/Westbrook are off the board, and likely a couple of the bigs, there's gonna be about 10 different directions this can go if we continue with the 11th through 20th best players (which I see us doing). At that point, guys like Melo, Butler, Thompson, Wall, Irving, Howard, Love, Wade, Duncan, Dirk, etc etc etc will all be on the poll. So kick back, relax. He'll be on the board if not the next poll then very shortly after.

And the bolded is a joke, if the internet gods have blinded anyone from sarcasm today

tredigs
08-22-2015, 06:10 PM
Melo's 30 now and just had a season riddled with injury + underwhelming play when he was in. Harden's impact is wayyy beyond Melo and frankly don't see why he belongs with Kawhi and Gasol. They may not have his scoring ability, but they have him in essentially all other regards. These are DPOY's and/or Finals MVP's whose elite teams fall apart without them. LMA and to a lesser extent Cousins you might have a case, but these are guys who had better years then Melo and still have room to grow. I'd wager we've seen the best of Melo and I'd take Jimmy Butler and Wall over him in a heartbeat on this list (who are also yet to be listed).

As for this vote, I went CP3. It's so interesting for these two to be the main choices. Same position, but that is where any and all similarities end.

Shammyguy3
08-22-2015, 06:39 PM
It is quite awesome how varied the point guard position has come. The two extreme spectrums like the top two vote getters thus far in this thread, and everyone in between

Steve Nash
Chris Paul
Mike Conley
Stephen Curry
John Wall
Kyrie Irving
Derrick Rose
Russell Westbrook

all very good to great guards at some point in their careers, yet all considered to be strictly PGs.

Chronz
08-22-2015, 08:07 PM
Going Westbrook here.

Fowl Rick
08-22-2015, 10:15 PM
Gotta be Westy

tredigs
08-22-2015, 10:39 PM
This could be an actual fun debate of styles and impact if anyone wants to start it. Why does it "gotta be" westy?

Chronz
08-22-2015, 11:04 PM
This could be an actual fun debate of styles and impact if anyone wants to start it. Why does it "gotta be" westy?
We can agree that CP3 had the better season last year, moving forward, I dont see that happening again. The gang is back and healthy this year. CP3 just played the full 82 games for the first time in a long time, coming off an injury hes going to be restricted this year.

And I cant shake their playoff series against one another when I finally conceded that CP3 may no longer be the best.

FlashBolt
08-23-2015, 04:25 AM
CP3. Stats don't make you the best player even though it's something to consider. Check who's #1 in this, LeBron James with 73% of the votes. He certainly didn't dominate the stats this past season. You gotta look at who's the better leader, smarter player, and statistically, yeah, WB may look better but did that translate to winning games efficiently? It also says who will you choose to win right now. I can't see Westbrook being a better PG than CP3 in a winning situation.

pedrofan45
08-23-2015, 04:49 AM
kobe.

More-Than-Most
08-23-2015, 05:08 AM
At a loss for words that Harden is above CP3. I guess being the worst defender in Basketball means nothing if you can score points. To the notion that Harden has gotten better defensively... Yes he did but that is not hard to do when you are historically bad... He was again one of if not the worst defender in basketball yet he is above a 2 way player that was damn near just as good offensively... WTF am I missing? Is Melo now the best basketball player in the world because if you want to get technical nobody has the offensive game Anthony has and anthony actually plays better ****ing defense than Harden.

Shammyguy3
08-23-2015, 10:27 AM
there are quite a handful of players that have the offensive game Melo has, and there are quite a few players' skillsets on offense that Melo could only dream of replicating.

Anyways, there's a reason why Harden went above CP3. Being at a loss of words is melodramatic. He was 2nd in MVP voting for a reason, had considerable less talent, and handled a much bigger load than CP3 has in years

xnick5757
08-23-2015, 01:53 PM
At a loss for words that Harden is above CP3. I guess being the worst defender in Basketball means nothing if you can score points. To the notion that Harden has gotten better defensively... Yes he did but that is not hard to do when you are historically bad... He was again one of if not the worst defender in basketball yet he is above a 2 way player that was damn near just as good offensively... WTF am I missing? Is Melo now the best basketball player in the world because if you want to get technical nobody has the offensive game Anthony has and anthony actually plays better ****ing defense than Harden.

his offense is so good it more than makes up for his poor defense

he's on another tier compared to other SGs

nastynice
08-23-2015, 03:44 PM
I share everyones sentiment, it's between cp3 and westy. I'm gonna go cp3, westy is great too but wastes too many possessions

More-Than-Most
08-24-2015, 01:12 AM
there are quite a handful of players that have the offensive game Melo has, and there are quite a few players' skillsets on offense that Melo could only dream of replicating.

Anyways, there's a reason why Harden went above CP3. Being at a loss of words is melodramatic. He was 2nd in MVP voting for a reason, had considerable less talent, and handled a much bigger load than CP3 has in years

so you are telling me Curry shouldn't have won mvp over Harden/James/CP3 with this logic? CP3/James/Curry were all better than Harden last year when you factor in that other half of basketball called defense... something that seems lost on this site... the only reason harden was 2 was because voters seeing scoring and their eyes go like this O.O

tredigs
08-24-2015, 01:46 PM
CP3 played good D, but at one of the least impactful positions. Echo that and then some for Curry. Lebron's D was apathetic at best and I have no reason why he'd get a pass over Harden in your book. Harden had a better season than Lebron through and through.

MinnesotaFtw
08-24-2015, 03:16 PM
I went Westbrook but no problem with CP3.

PJAF
08-24-2015, 04:29 PM
For Lamacus, Demarcus, Gasol, & Kahwi to be on this list and not Melo is rediculous! & dont tell me it's because he plays no D, because if thats the case, a lot of u guys in here who voted Harden would fall in the category of HYPOCRITE, Im fine with the Harden pick,but what im not fine with is the fact that Melo isn't even on the list.

Agree. x10.

More-Than-Most
08-24-2015, 05:01 PM
CP3 played good D, but at one of the least impactful positions. Echo that and then some for Curry. Lebron's D was apathetic at best and I have no reason why he'd get a pass over Harden in your book. Harden had a better season than Lebron through and through.

and again your lack of knowledge for defense is showing... No lebron wasn't great on defense but he was still much much better than Harden period. The position doesn't warrant how badly Harden was on defense when in comparison to cp3.

I wont even go into the other stats currently but here is this article from January when I was screaming this same thing from the rooftops but others because he can score ignored it

http://www.thedreamshake.com/2015/1/19/7852819/james-harden-defense-Rockets-MVP

James Harden is still historically bad on defense... He just is.... He is an offensive force but he is no different from a Melo who is unstoppable on one side of the ball and **** on the other... The slight difference is Harden is slightly better offensively while Melo is better defensively... How insane is that? Carmelo ****ing anthony is better defensively.

In no way/shape or form was Harden better than Curry/CP3/Davis/James

phantasyyy
08-24-2015, 05:20 PM
Its crazy how one video on harden's defensive mishaps can have such a lasting memory of haters lmao.

Harden isn't going to win an all defensive awards or anything, but to say he is still touted as one of the worst defensive players is asinine. He has definitely improved in that area showing a much more concerted effort on the end of the floor. Hes not going to become iguodala but for his team he doesn't have to.

Not to mention hes a pretty solid 1on1 defender, its his help defense that needs some work on as he has the tendency to become lost through ball watching

More-Than-Most
08-24-2015, 06:03 PM
Its crazy how one video on harden's defensive mishaps can have such a lasting memory of haters lmao.

Harden isn't going to win an all defensive awards or anything, but to say he is still touted as one of the worst defensive players is asinine. He has definitely improved in that area showing a much more concerted effort on the end of the floor. Hes not going to become iguodala but for his team he doesn't have to.

Not to mention hes a pretty solid 1on1 defender, its his help defense that needs some work on as he has the tendency to become lost through ball watching

Guess you ignored that article above where statistically it says other wise.

Shammyguy3
08-24-2015, 06:11 PM
so you are telling me Curry shouldn't have won mvp over Harden/James/CP3 with this logic? CP3/James/Curry were all better than Harden last year when you factor in that other half of basketball called defense... something that seems lost on this site... the only reason harden was 2 was because voters seeing scoring and their eyes go like this O.O

No that's not what I said at all. I said there's a reason why Harden was voted ahead of Chris Paul. If you don't like that reasoning, suit yourself. And don't misconstrue what other users have to say, it leads down a bad path for debate.

And like others have said in this thread - offense is far more difficult to come by than defense. And if you aren't a center or power forward, then defense isn't quite as important. There's a reason why year in and year out strictly offensive wing players have a bigger impact on the game than strictly defensive wing players.

tredigs
08-24-2015, 06:58 PM
Guess you ignored that article above where statistically it says other wise.

I'm cracking up at the fact that you can't even comprehend the article you yourself linked. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING about that article hints at historically bad D. It simply said that his D within 6 feet in took a dive in 2014/15 to that point, but that his perimeter D was improved. It also said that overall, he was holding opponents to a net -2.5% shooting. While it said this difference netted a wash from the prior year (noting that he had no Jones/Howard in the block and that very likely contributed to the lower post% #'s) that means his opponents are shooting 2.5% worse when guarded by Harden than their league average.

Please stop embarrassing yourself here. It's actually making ME feel uncomfortable.

Minimal
08-24-2015, 07:41 PM
Mr Triple Double himself, Russell Westbrook.

More-Than-Most
08-24-2015, 07:51 PM
I'm cracking up at the fact that you can't even comprehend the article you yourself linked. Nothing, absolutely NOTHING about that article hints at historically bad D. It simply said that his D within 6 feet in took a dive in 2014/15 to that point, but that his perimeter D was improved. It also said that overall, he was holding opponents to a net -2.5% shooting. While it said this difference netted a wash from the prior year (noting that he had no Jones/Howard in the block and that very likely contributed to the lower post% #'s) that means his opponents are shooting 2.5% worse when guarded by Harden than their league average.

Please stop embarrassing yourself here. It's actually making ME feel uncomfortable.

I completely understand the article and he is saying how bad he is and showing there is no change in his defense like others state... he goes on to say that he is not as historically bad as others think but he isn't using statistical evidence to back that up like he is to show how his defense really hasn't gotten better. He did the work to show how his defense is crap but isn't doing the work to show just how god awful harden has been defensively because that's not what the article is about... the article is about the fact that all a sudden his defense did not improve like others have thought.... but good job cracking up at nothing because you cant figure out how to measure defense and brush it aside because of position or because of the notion that offense is the end all be all.

tredigs
08-24-2015, 08:11 PM
I specifically broke it down for you, and you're still pleading ignorance. Lmaoo that is ****ing awesome.

Shammyguy3
08-24-2015, 08:15 PM
this is coming down to the wire

More-Than-Most
08-24-2015, 08:29 PM
I specifically broke it down for you, and you're still pleading ignorance. Lmaoo that is ****ing awesome.

do me one favor... break down Hardens defense for me using statistical evidence not just from that article.... this should be hilarious... break it down and tell me how he isn't on of the worst defenders in all of basketball.

tredigs
08-24-2015, 08:59 PM
do me one favor... break down Hardens defense for me using statistical evidence not just from that article.... this should be hilarious... break it down and tell me how he isn't on of the worst defenders in all of basketball.

So break it down using statistical evidence NOT from the article you posted in here that showcased him as a +defender in your failed attempt to paint him as a terrible defender? OK, will do.

He netted a DRPM of -0.16. That ranked him #30 of 91 applicable SG's last season. Notable SG's ranking worse include Derozan, JR Smith, Tyreke, Waiters, Hinrich, Wade, Afflalo, Oladipo, etc etc. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2

In Defensive Box +/- he posted a +1.0. That was the best of his career. His solid defensive rating of 103 was middle of the road on his team. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2

So, how about you step up and provide some information that insinuates "historically bad D", seeing as all evidence points to you not knowing what you're talking about and simply sticking to your own narrative of him.

More-Than-Most
08-24-2015, 09:44 PM
So break it down using statistical evidence NOT from the article you posted in here that showcased him as a +defender in your failed attempt to paint him as a terrible defender? OK, will do.

He netted a DRPM of -0.16. That ranked him #30 of 91 applicable SG's last season. Notable SG's ranking worse include Derozan, JR Smith, Tyreke, Waiters, Hinrich, Wade, Afflalo, Oladipo, etc etc. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2

In Defensive Box +/- he posted a +1.0. That was the best of his career. His solid defensive rating of 103 was middle of the road on his team. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2

So, how about you step up and provide some information that insinuates "historically bad D", seeing as all evidence points to you not knowing what you're talking about and simply sticking to your own narrative of him.

edited... not even worth... can see i will be banned even using an Emotion.

you showed me all i needed to see.

More-Than-Most
08-24-2015, 10:15 PM
So break it down using statistical evidence NOT from the article you posted in here that showcased him as a +defender in your failed attempt to paint him as a terrible defender? OK, will do.

He netted a DRPM of -0.16. That ranked him #30 of 91 applicable SG's last season. Notable SG's ranking worse include Derozan, JR Smith, Tyreke, Waiters, Hinrich, Wade, Afflalo, Oladipo, etc etc. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2

In Defensive Box +/- he posted a +1.0. That was the best of his career. His solid defensive rating of 103 was middle of the road on his team. http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/rpm/_/page/3/sort/DRPM/position/2

So, how about you step up and provide some information that insinuates "historically bad D", seeing as all evidence points to you not knowing what you're talking about and simply sticking to your own narrative of him.

Is pointless... You actually used defensive box plus/Minus... When it came to the article you also saw what you wanted to see... Everyone has been preaching his defense has gotten better but overall it is just as bad as the year he was so bad that he was ashamed of himself... He so called Improved in one area but got worse in another thus his overall defense stayed the exact same... Bad. The article uses ideal metrics and not the lawl Defensive Box/Plus minus.... You then see the end of the article where the guy states his defense though has not improved and is still bad is not as bad as people made it... Which there was no metrics used on that part but he used that point because the year before people were so beyond down on his defense so it was safe for him to state that it isn't as bad.... HIS DEFENSE DID NOT IN ANY WAY SHAPE OR FORM IMPROVE OVERALL... He is still the same horrid defender he was... You want a full break down no prob give me a bit even though I am almost certain its pointless because you are using defensive Box Plus/minus.

More-Than-Most
08-24-2015, 10:20 PM
Yes, this year we've definitely seen an improvement in his perimeter defense. But, to go along with that, there's been a drop off on his efforts inside. It's almost zero-sum.

Lol Yea the article totally is saying he is a plus defender :rolleyes:

There has been no overall improvement in his defense... He still is bad... Keep trying to pick what you want to pick to make it seem like he is a good defender when the statistics show not only did he not improve overall he is still one of the worst defenders in basketball.

More-Than-Most
08-24-2015, 10:23 PM
http://regressing.deadspin.com/chart-of-james-hardens-defense-looks-just-as-bad-as-you-1687812356

Take a read... That kinda ***** on your plus/minus.

tredigs
08-24-2015, 10:35 PM
Here, let's trade links:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13461596/2015-summer-forecast-worst-newcomer

https://www.numberfire.com/nba/news/3932/believe-it-or-not-james-harden-is-a-good-defender

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/12/8/7353397/james-harden-defense-video-rockets-nba

Watching you still try to squirm out of the link you originally posted in the chat that clearly states he has a + impact overall defensively is still cracking me up btw. You're a special snowflake.

ManRam
08-24-2015, 10:43 PM
i don't have a strong opinion between harden, paul and westy 5-7 tbh. depends on my mood.

More-Than-Most
08-24-2015, 11:53 PM
Here, let's trade links:

http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13461596/2015-summer-forecast-worst-newcomer

https://www.numberfire.com/nba/news/3932/believe-it-or-not-james-harden-is-a-good-defender

http://www.sbnation.com/nba/2014/12/8/7353397/james-harden-defense-video-rockets-nba

Watching you still try to squirm out of the link you originally posted in the chat that clearly states he has a + impact overall defensively is still cracking me up btw. You're a special snowflake.

You use plus/minus and I am the special one? xD

Chrisclover
08-25-2015, 12:00 AM
For Lamacus, Demarcus, Gasol, & Kahwi to be on this list and not Melo is rediculous! & dont tell me it's because he plays no D, because if thats the case, a lot of u guys in here who voted Harden would fall in the category of HYPOCRITE, Im fine with the Harden pick,but what im not fine with is the fact that Melo isn't even on the list.
Aside from leading the team to No. 2 in the east in the regular season a few years ago, Melo hasn't achieved notable success. Harden improved his D and led the team to the west conference finals. I am afraid you didn't take these into consideration

tredigs
08-25-2015, 12:04 AM
Yes, I used RPM and BPM as part of the defensive stats. I also used your link.

Stats that rated Curry/Westbrook/Lebron/Harden/AD/CP3/Kawhi/D.Green/Gobert/Duncan as the most impactful players for the year. What an outlandish, off the wall stat.

LakersIn5
08-25-2015, 04:47 PM
Lol at curry and harden being better than cp3 and westbrook

EDUTEXANS
08-25-2015, 05:52 PM
I couldn't vote, but I would definitely have gone with Paul.

I had some stuff to post, in order to justify my pick, but it doesn't matter that much anymore, as the poll is closed. And I also don't feel like going through everything.

My main argument is that, while Paul doesn't post huge stats as Westbrook, we saw, in the Playoffs, how he can still dominate and take over a game if decides to force his game a little more. And he's so efficient, I don't see how he isn't a better player than Westy.