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View Full Version : Is KD the best "pure scorer" since MJ?



Gander13SM
08-15-2015, 03:26 PM
Simple question. Is he? I'm not big on comparisons but I saw this debate on twitter and I'm intrigued to see what people on here think.

The only other argument I can see is Kobe.

Note I'm talking purely about scoring ability, cutting/driving, finishing at the rim, finishing through traffic, mid range shooting, three point shooting, shooting off the dribble, catch and shoot, splitting the defense, post scoring, footwork in general etc etc etc



edit; could a mod add a poll? I forgot to.

TheNumber37
08-15-2015, 03:49 PM
Mj's outside shooting game wasn't as good as KD, Kobe or Melo.

Or as MJ would put it. His outside shooting game wasn't as good as he chose it to be

beasted86
08-15-2015, 04:00 PM
It would help if you defined "pure scorer."

Your description seems vague. Does pure scorer mean they don't like to pass? Most efficient over a certain threshold (IE: 27+ PPG)? Skill versatility regardless of efficiency?

In just these 3 different definitions I'd pick 3 different players.

tredigs
08-15-2015, 04:09 PM
"Pure scorer" I assume is referring to having a wide arsenal of scoring moves, and not being overly dependent on low post scoring, getting to the line, etc. So somebody like Shaq wouldn't make the cut despite being an efficient, high volume scorer.

Others I think of when it comes to the best "pure scoring" since MJ are Dirk and Kobe. Durant's better than both, though.

Gander13SM
08-15-2015, 04:27 PM
"Pure scorer" I assume is referring to having a wide arsenal of scoring moves, and not being overly dependent on low post scoring, getting to the line, etc. So somebody like Shaq wouldn't make the cut despite being an efficient, high volume scorer.

Others I think of when it comes to the best "pure scoring" since MJ are Dirk and Kobe. Durant's better than both, though.

I agree with this definition. The wide variety of ways to score is key. Someone who just flat out gets buckets no matter what the defense throws at them (for the most part).

I would also put Melo in this category but not on the same level (imo)

beasted86
08-15-2015, 04:36 PM
Why would a low post scorer be any less "pure"? Also is "style" a part of it that trumps "results"? I've heard because LeBron's post game looks ugly at times "he's not a good post scorer" despite stats saying something completely different. Does taking and making low efficiency/high difficulty shots reward you with extra points as in the case of Kobe/Carmelo/etc?

Entire concept seems very shaky and prone to bias.

beasted86
08-15-2015, 04:41 PM
If degree of difficulty and wide array is the basic criteria along with simply putting up points... It's Kobe by the furthest margin possible.

Cal827
08-15-2015, 04:45 PM
Mj's outside shooting game wasn't as good as KD, Kobe or Melo.

Or as MJ would put it. His outside shooting game wasn't as good as he chose it to be

Pretty much this. with pretty much the other guys I would add to the list, as well as Dirk and maybe T-Mac.

tredigs
08-15-2015, 04:56 PM
Think of it this way beasted. If you can't shoot the basketball with any level of accuracy, you won't be considered a "pure scorer". Kobe has every move in his arsenal, and despite going into hero mode at times and hurting his efficiency as a result, he was still a highly effective +scorer. He averaged 29 a game with a 56% TS through his 8 year prime. That's very solid. Still, KD can hurt you more with his range and does things with the rock that nobody his height ever has before. If he gets to the point where he adds a little more strength and can also bully people in the post ala Melo, he'll essentially be unstoppable with how pure his shot is.

Lebron's sort of in between what somebody would call a "pure scorer" and simply a highly effective one. He's an interesting one to debate.

Curry's an interesting one here, too. Obviously he won't batter you in the post and doesn't have the volume of these guys (partially due to a lack of minutes), but he's about as gifted of a scorer as you can be.

Scoots
08-15-2015, 05:04 PM
"Pure scorer" is like pornography ... it's difficult to define but people know it when they see it. Without a concrete definition it's impossible to rank them.

Kyben36
08-15-2015, 05:11 PM
Kobe..... I hate saying it.... but yes. Kobe. espeically in his prime.

beasted86
08-15-2015, 05:22 PM
Think of it this way beasted. If you can't shoot the basketball with any level of accuracy, you won't be considered a "pure scorer". Kobe has every move in his arsenal, and despite going into hero mode at times and hurting his efficiency as a result, he was still a highly effective +scorer. He averaged 29 a game with a 56% TS through his 8 year prime. That's very solid. Still, KD can hurt you more with his range and does things with the rock that nobody his height ever has before. If he gets to the point where he adds a little more strength and can also bully people in the post ala Melo, he'll essentially be unstoppable with how pure his shot is.

Lebron's sort of in between what somebody would call a "pure scorer" and simply a highly effective one. He's an interesting one to debate.

Curry's an interesting one here, too. Obviously he won't batter you in the post and doesn't have the volume of these guys (partially due to a lack of minutes), but he's about as gifted of a scorer as you can be.

Your definition seems all over the place.

Curry a pure scorer? His array of shots are really basic. How can you never take a mid range shot, a post shot, nor has he ever finished through a player in his life (yes, I'm willing to make this hasty broad assumption) and be considered in the same discussion as guys who shoot from every where on the floor.

TheNumber37
08-15-2015, 05:57 PM
To Settle The KD VS Melo scorer debate:

KD is more athletic and a better shooter.

Melo has a more complete offense game because his mid range and post games are DEVELOPED more. He doesn't shoot it as well, but his mid range and post games are more versatile

curtcocaine
08-15-2015, 06:04 PM
Your definition seems all over the place.

Curry a pure scorer? His array of shots are really basic. How can you never take a mid range shot, a post shot, nor has he ever finished through a player in his life (yes, I'm willing to make this hasty broad assumption) and be considered in the same discussion as guys who shoot from every where on the floor.
Yup made an *** outta yourself....

MELO 15
08-15-2015, 06:19 PM
To Settle The KD VS Melo scorer debate:

KD is more athletic and a better shooter.

Melo has a more complete offense game because his mid range and post games are DEVELOPED more. He doesn't shoot it as well, but his mid range and post games are more versatile

Thank you sir. Finally! One that gets it!

giventofly
08-15-2015, 06:22 PM
How about this:

Who gives a ****?

Sadds The Gr8
08-15-2015, 06:46 PM
yes...it's not a tough question

Gander13SM
08-15-2015, 06:48 PM
How about this:

Who gives a ****?

I never understand why people who don't care for a topic actually take the time to post something. It only makes it look like you do care.

If you don't care. Don't open and reply. Just scroll past.

Hawkeye15
08-15-2015, 06:56 PM
Kobe probably. Sure he went into hero mode a lot, but he, throughout his career, attacked rim, lived in the post, scored from midrange going either way or on the catch, off screens, off the dribble, long ball, any way you can think.

Durant may end up passing him in that discussion, but with the game hitting evolution and long 2's dying, it will be tough to argue for him.

Efficiency, versus being able to be good from every aspect of scoring, are 2 different things.

tredigs
08-15-2015, 07:08 PM
Your definition seems all over the place.

Curry a pure scorer? His array of shots are really basic. How can you never take a mid range shot, a post shot, nor has he ever finished through a player in his life (yes, I'm willing to make this hasty broad assumption) and be considered in the same discussion as guys who shoot from every where on the floor.

This post is you attempting to make a joke, orrr... you don't watch basketball?

flea
08-15-2015, 07:48 PM
Probably Kobe. Had everything you want in a SG, probably the most versatile guard of all time along with West. Would have been fun if he came up with a different coaching philosophy than ISO/triple post stuff but you can't argue with the results too much.

Durant is a nice player, but sometimes I question his shot selection and consistent in the post. Relies a lot on contact, right there with the big-time slashers like Lebron, Westbrook, and Harden. Hard to argue against him, even if he's not the passer or post presence he could be yet.

Curry has a chance to be that, but the biggest rivals to Kobe IMO are bigs. Duncan was a very versatile scorer from 15 feet in, and Dirk's shot charts from his prime are terrifying. Hard to really compare since it's generally ballhandlers leading the league in PPG, which is what most people think when they hear "pure scorer." I'll take versatility and situational effectiveness in my lead scorer over PPG any day, though.

beasted86
08-15-2015, 07:59 PM
This post is you attempting to make a joke, orrr... you don't watch basketball?

No being completely serious.

Curry doesn't run down the lane off a pick and roll and smash it down players throats. Kobe, LeBron, Carmelo, and Durant consistently do/did this many times during a season. Is that not one of many ways to score? Matter of fact even floaters and layups he's fairly mediocre around the basket in general.

Curry doesn't post up players. Kobe, LeBron, Carmelo, and Durant consistently operate in the mid or low post.

Curry doesn't take mid range shots in isolation, he's using a step back to take a 3 or driving it in to toss floaters or passes. Its either within 10 feet or out to the 3PT line for the most part. I don't want to hear anything about "by design" or the theory of mid-range shots being less efficient. Fact is at any given point, Kobe, LeBron, Carmelo and Durant can take and make whatever the defense gives them, including mid-range. The midrange is a tool to open up their finishing ability since they are bigger and more athletic and 2 steps from a dunk operating in that mid-range area if you defend them wrong.

Curry is the single deadliest scorer to me, and borderline unguardable at times, but doesn't fit your earlier arbitrary criteria of being dynamic. This is why I said basically you need to pick one. If its the most effective, most dynamic/versatile, or is it simply a guy who isn't willing to pass and can make something out of nothing and take those bad shots if necessary. Can't try and mold all 3 together because it makes no sense and will end up in bias.

JasonJohnHorn
08-15-2015, 08:20 PM
I would say he's the best pure scorer since Bird.

If we are talking about scoring, I think that KD may have more weapons than Jordan. He has an amazing 3-point shot, which Jordan never really had. Jordan is a better post player, and better breaking down guys one-on-one (which isn't to say that KD isn't amazing). KD is also a better FT shooter.

Jordan got more point, obviously, but that is in part because he got more shots. I think you could argue that KD is a better 'scorer' than Jordan. I wouldn't say that is a qualifiable argument, but it could be made.


That said, Jordan was clearly the better all-around player; far superior defender and playmaker, and likely a better rebounder as well when you consider their positions. But if we are looking only at putting the ball in the basket and getting more points per possession or shot, KD has a case.

Bird as well, obviously. Bird played with several HOF players, all of them great scorers, so he had to share the ball a lot, especially with Parish and McHale, but to a lesser extent Maxwell and Johnson. So he obviously didn't posted the league-leading scoring numbers Jordan had, but points-by-possession, I think a case could be made for Bird being a better scorer than Jordan as well.

Here are their points per shot numbers:
KD: 1.42 (career) and 1.53 (13/14 season)
Bird: 1.25 (career) and 1.35 (87/88)
Jordan: 1.31 (carer) and 1.43 (87/88)

Obviously PPS doesn't tell you everything, but it gives a pretty indication of how efficient a player is as a scorer. KD and MJ have an edge with PPS over Bird because they drew more fouls, but it still shows how effective they are as scorers.


So yeah... I would say KD is the best pure scorer since MJ for sure; maybe even since Bird.

MTar786
08-15-2015, 08:28 PM
kobe and its not even close yet. but kd still can eventually

RLundi
08-15-2015, 08:34 PM
Pure scorer is such a subjective term and despite valiant attempts to define it, there is no one true agreed-upon denotation, so until you define it OP, you're going to get a bunch of different answers.

That being said, I'll liken pure scorer to most versatile, and for that, I'll choose Kobe. In his prime, Kobe could hit the three, drive it in, mid-range, post-up, free throw, pull up, spot-up and he did all of this being nearly unstoppable. IMO Durant is a great scorer, but Kobe could literally do whatever he wanted when he was at the top of his game. I haven't seen Durant be that dominant yet.

tredigs
08-15-2015, 08:42 PM
No being completely serious.

Curry doesn't run down the lane off a pick and roll and smash it down players throats. Kobe, LeBron, Carmelo, and Durant consistently do/did this many times during a season. Is that not one of many ways to score? Matter of fact even floaters and layups he's fairly mediocre around the basket in general.

Curry doesn't post up players. Kobe, LeBron, Carmelo, and Durant consistently operate in the mid or low post.

Curry doesn't take mid range shots in isolation, he's using a step back to take a 3 or driving it in to toss floaters or passes. Its either within 10 feet or out to the 3PT line for the most part. I don't want to hear anything about "by design" or the theory of mid-range shots being less efficient. Fact is at any given point, Kobe, LeBron, Carmelo and Durant can take and make whatever the defense gives them, including mid-range. The midrange is a tool to open up their finishing ability since they are bigger and more athletic and 2 steps from a dunk operating in that mid-range area if you defend them wrong.

Curry is the single deadliest scorer to me, and borderline unguardable at times, but doesn't fit your earlier arbitrary criteria of being dynamic. This is why I said basically you need to pick one. If its the most effective, most dynamic/versatile, or is it simply a guy who isn't willing to pass and can make something out of nothing and take those bad shots if necessary. Can't try and mold all 3 together because it makes no sense and will end up in bias.

Curry's small by NBA standards, obviously he's not going to post guys up, but you're wrong to think he doesn't drive into traffic and finish at the rim, or that he doesn't have a deep mid-range game. He is both an elite finisher around the rim (this is newer for him, but very much part of his arsenal) and is one of the best deep mid-range shooters in the game. He pulls up from 18 all the time. 25% of his career shots have come outside of 16 feet and before the 3pt line. This past season, he finished nearly 20% of his shots within 3 feet and made them at a career best 69% clip. For comparison, in Kobe's career he averages 21% of his shots within 3 feet and finishes at a 63% clip. In his career he averages 40.6% from 16 feet to <3, Kevin Durant averages 42%, Curry 46% from that range.

He has a 1 handed floater that he uses in traffic from ~10 feet in, and does it with both hands (ex here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AaptyqQzc7w here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahVLFxO2PFg and here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixvMZ6h_aW0). He has a crossover/pull-up that he uses as his go to mid-range or deeper (ex here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XWj3lPv7RC4). He has the crazy tear drop you'll see that he uses at any range inside the 3pt line (ex here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUGC7NuMS-w), and some examples of his crazy finishing ability at the rim (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rYxpiHkEZCg).

Only a few players like Kobe truly have the wide range of scoring from 3pt to mid-range to post to the rim like he does (prime T-Mac, LBJ when he's hot from deep and hitting the post, etc), but Curry is dynamic enough with his dribbling ability and mix of 3pt pull-ups, mid-range, off the ball, in traffic, etc attacks that I think he warrants a mention. Kobe can hit the post, but he couldn't create space in ISO off the dribble and just completely lose his man at anywhere near Curry's level, and obviously has nowhere near his accuracy or range.

If you can score from anywhere on the court (regardless of how you accomplish that... be it posting up, crossing up your man, whatever), you're a pure scorer imo. Hope that helps explain my take on it.

tredigs
08-15-2015, 08:47 PM
In that vein, I'd argue Kyrie is a guy who you could bring up here. Wizard with the ball and elite from 3, mid-range and at the rim. Obviously again you're not getting the post-game due to his size, but it doesn't stop him from getting his shot off at that distance if he wants it. Also does things Kobe, KD, etc can't. Works both ways.

GiantsSwaGG
08-15-2015, 08:50 PM
Kd
Melo
T-Mac
Dirk
Kobe

It's a tight race between those guys

MTar786
08-15-2015, 10:45 PM
Kd
Melo
T-Mac
Dirk
Kobe

It's a tight race between those guys

i think its goes

kobe
kd
tmac

and then
wade
melo
and everyone else

JasonJohnHorn
08-15-2015, 10:46 PM
I never understand why people who don't care for a topic actually take the time to post something. It only makes it look like you do care.

If you don't care. Don't open and reply. Just scroll past.

+1

It's like: um... people are in this forum to talk about basketball, which usually means comparing players and teams. If you aren't interested in that conversation, why bother to show up to tell everybody that?

sportsgeek
08-15-2015, 11:38 PM
I think an argument can be made that tmac is as good a scorer as KD or Melo...at his peak he was filthy on offense and pretty much unstoppable. With all the talk about tmac these days hopefully people start to remember how good he really was

slashsnake
08-16-2015, 01:08 AM
I'd say yes...

4 scoring titles. 7 seasons of 25+ a game. Just a hair under 50% FG, 40% 3, 90% FT. Good inside and better than both of those two (Melo/Tmac) out.

TMac at his prime you could argue was nearly as good (never had the shooting % or FT% though), but already Durant has been better for longer. Durant 4 scoring titles, Melo + McGrady 3 scoring titles. Durant 2 seasons over 30 a game, Melo + McGrady have 1.

Durant hasn't played nearly as long as those two, but has as many 40 pt games as Tmac, more than Melo.

He gets to the line more and is better there.

So much more efficient than those two too.


Kobe and AI should get some love. I'd put them well over Melo and Tmac as pure scorers myself. 22 seasons of over 25 a game between those two and 7 times between them they scored 30 in a season.

I'd go with Kobe then Durant/AI, with Durant's only question on passing AI being if he can keep this level of play up another few years. Tmac and Melo can round out the top 5, but damn... Shaq and Wade too..



Ok starting over... My post MJ... Scorers...

Tier 1.

Kobe, AI, Durant

Tier 2.
Shaq, Wade, Melo, Tmac, Bron (nearly forgot the active leader in points per game)

Tier 3.
Dirk, Agent 0, Truth? Big Dog? STAT? C-Webb...

Moving up group...

Curry, Rose, Griffin, Westbrook, Drew?

Something like that... Not really sold on my own list right now... wouldn't argue some movement in there. lol

naps
08-16-2015, 07:34 AM
I would take a high volume but very efficient scorer over so called "pure scorer" any day of the week. This game is won by buckets and scoring at a high clip efficiently will win you games. Jacking up contested and sexy jumpshots won't because they are low percentage shots almost at all times.

ghettosean
08-16-2015, 09:27 AM
I would take a high volume but very efficient scorer over so called "pure scorer" any day of the week. This game is won by buckets and scoring at a high clip efficiently will win you games. Jacking up contested and sexy jumpshots won't because they are low percentage shots almost at all times.

So who would that person be in your opinion?

Supreme LA
08-16-2015, 11:47 AM
I would take a high volume but very efficient scorer over so called "pure scorer" any day of the week. This game is won by buckets and scoring at a high clip efficiently will win you games. Jacking up contested and sexy jumpshots won't because they are low percentage shots almost at all times.

And I like a blonde with a big booty. Nobody cares what your preference is.

xxplayerxx23
08-16-2015, 12:22 PM
Tmac Kobe Melo KD AI Dirk Wade Lebron all pretty dominate scorers in no order I could see an argument for all. Man such a shame Tmac wasn't healthy throughout his career

naps
08-17-2015, 01:02 AM
So who would that person be in your opinion?

LeBron James and Kevin Durant are prime examples of that. They shot over 50% being wing players multiple times at high volumes.

naps
08-17-2015, 01:05 AM
And I like a blonde with a big booty. Nobody cares what your preference is.

And I dont care if my post hurt your feelings. I am sorry but I dont like seeing contested low percentage jumpshots over passing it to the right teammate who has a better chance of making it. That is dumb. Who cares how you are making your buckets as long as you are making them at a very good clip and not stopping the flow of the offense.

TheNumber37
08-17-2015, 01:49 AM
While not scoring in as much ways Melo, KD and Kobe
Iverson is as PURE a SCORER as they come

Supreme LA
08-17-2015, 02:59 AM
And I dont care if my post hurt your feelings. I am sorry but I dont like seeing contested low percentage jumpshots over passing it to the right teammate who has a better chance of making it. That is dumb. Who cares how you are making your buckets as long as you are making them at a very good clip and not stopping the flow of the offense.

My feelings weren't hurt buddy. I'm simply saying the thread title asked for has been the best "pure scorer" since MJ. It didn't ask you about your thoughts on who has been most efficient.

More-Than-Most
08-17-2015, 03:30 AM
its melo or dirk or Tmac.... Kobe a bit after.... If Melo actually played defense he would be in my top 7 players in the league.... What about curry?

More-Than-Most
08-17-2015, 03:31 AM
While not scoring in as much ways Melo, KD and Kobe
Iverson is as PURE a SCORER as they come

High volume of shots and getting every call in the world because of your size does not equate to pure scorer.

naps
08-17-2015, 03:48 AM
My feelings weren't hurt buddy. I'm simply saying the thread title asked for has been the best "pure scorer" since MJ. It didn't ask you about your thoughts on who has been most efficient.

I perfectly answered the thread question. Your definition might be different from mine of pure scorer but don't get mad just because my definition doesn't appreciate inefficient but pretty jump shooters.

MTar786
08-17-2015, 04:37 AM
Best scorers in order


kobe
durant
tmac
iverson

meloman1592
08-17-2015, 04:49 AM
Nah it's Kobe. Easily. But Kd can pass him. Dirk and Melo also come to mind. Imo though, T Mac would've been better than all of them if his body didn't fail him.

MickeyMgl
08-17-2015, 05:47 AM
Simple question. Is he? I'm not big on comparisons but I saw this debate on twitter and I'm intrigued to see what people on here think.

The only other argument I can see is Kobe.

That's a pretty significant "other" argument. Sucks a lot of the air out of the discussion. The answer to the question, then, is "no".

It's questionable whether KD has been a better pure scorer than Anthony. I'm not saying he isn't, but it's more of a debate.

Twitter is worthless for intelligent debate - or debate topics, apparently.

Gander13SM
08-17-2015, 08:25 AM
That's a pretty significant "other" argument. Sucks a lot of the air out of the discussion. The answer to the question, then, is "no".

It's questionable whether KD has been a better pure scorer than Anthony. I'm not saying he isn't, but it's more of a debate.

Twitter is worthless for intelligent debate - or debate topics, apparently.


Why do you feel Kobe is better?

Tony_Starks
08-17-2015, 09:36 AM
He drop 82 yet?

Until then, nah.

FlashBolt
08-17-2015, 01:28 PM
He drop 82 yet?

Until then, nah.

And you expect people to take you seriously... By your logic, David Thompson and David Robinson are better scorers than MJ.

Back to the thread, Allen Iverson was not a pure scorer. If you mean his only ability is to score, sure, because he wasn't a great defender, passer, or anything much. He was a high volume/USG% player who had an elite defensive team to anchor his mishaps.

I think Kobe is the best pure scorer. He can post up, shoot the ball well, and is well-rounded at every area of the court. Can snipe you down, take you to the post, the rim, pretty much everything. Heck, I think Kobe is a better pure scorer than MJ if we are purely talking about making shots. MJ certainly thinks so since he said Kobe could beat him.

As for KD, he definitely needs a lot of work but I think we'll never get to see that. He's too reliant on his shooting prowess that he rarely posts up and with how the game has changed, many aspects of scoring will be ignored.

Melo has more of an argument than KD to be honest. He's well-rounded in many areas and can hit areas KD can't.

Tony_Starks
08-17-2015, 02:59 PM
He drop 82 yet?

Until then, nah.

And you expect people to take you seriously... By your logic, David Thompson and David Robinson are better scorers than MJ.

Back to the thread, Allen Iverson was not a pure scorer. If you mean his only ability is to score, sure, because he wasn't a great defender, passer, or anything much. He was a high volume/USG% player who had an elite defensive team to anchor his mishaps.

I think Kobe is the best pure scorer. He can post up, shoot the ball well, and is well-rounded at every area of the court. Can snipe you down, take you to the post, the rim, pretty much everything. Heck, I think Kobe is a better pure scorer than MJ if we are purely talking about making shots. MJ certainly thinks so since he said Kobe could beat him.

As for KD, he definitely needs a lot of work but I think we'll never get to see that. He's too reliant on his shooting prowess that he rarely posts up and with how the game has changed, many aspects of scoring will be ignored.

Melo has more of an argument than KD to be honest. He's well-rounded in many areas and can hit areas KD can't.


You compare Kobe to two players who had to have team pre-planned team orchestrated efforts to let them shoot every time one night only to win a scoring title? Same Kobe who averaged 40 for a month, had 4 50+ games straight, and dropped 65 on Dallas in 3 quarters? Really? That equates to apples to apples by your basketball logic?

And you talk about taking people seriously?

Comedy gold!!

asandhu23
08-17-2015, 05:46 PM
How about this:

Who gives a ****?

Come on, man. You are an ex Mod. Act like one.

mngopher35
08-17-2015, 06:02 PM
I think it comes down to Durant or Kobe. I would give the edge to Kobe but it is pretty close and kinda depends on your definition of "pure scorer" too. Durant is better at the hoop and from 3 while Kobe is better in between. Durant can score more efficiently than Kobe in the flow of an offense but Kobe seems more capable of scoring at a high usage without it affecting his efficiency too much.

If Durant comes back healthy I could definitely see him changing my mind but for now I give the slight edge to Kobe. He has better footwork and handling while durant is taller and a better shooter.

Tony_Starks
08-17-2015, 07:48 PM
I think it comes down to Durant or Kobe. I would give the edge to Kobe but it is pretty close and kinda depends on your definition of "pure scorer" too. Durant is better at the hoop and from 3 while Kobe is better in between. Durant can score more efficiently than Kobe in the flow of an offense but Kobe seems more capable of scoring at a high usage without it affecting his efficiency too much.

If Durant comes back healthy I could definitely see him changing my mind but for now I give the slight edge to Kobe. He has better footwork and handling while durant is taller and a better shooter.

True. Kobe's mid-range and face up game is what separates him from KD. Kobe can give you 50 without being particularly hot from 3 by just killing you all night with pull ups, jab steps, fade aways, and head fakes. If his 3 is streaking you could very well get a 60 +.

Can't really say that for KD. But the sick thing about him is he's such a great shooter he's capable of getting hot and pulling up from halfcourt on you with nothing you can really do about it.

andy2518
08-17-2015, 07:49 PM
That's a pretty significant "other" argument. Sucks a lot of the air out of the discussion. The answer to the question, then, is "no".

It's questionable whether KD has been a better pure scorer than Anthony. I'm not saying he isn't, but it's more of a debate.

Twitter is worthless for intelligent debate - or debate topics, apparently.

I was with ya until you said Anthony.

andy2518
08-17-2015, 07:50 PM
True. Kobe's mid-range and face up game is what separates him from KD. Kobe can give you 50 without being particularly hot from 3 by just killing you all night with pull ups, jab steps, fade aways, and head fakes. If his 3 is streaking you could very well get a 60 +.

Can't really say that for KD. But the sick thing about him is he's such a great shooter he's capable of getting hot and pulling up from halfcourt on you with nothing you can really do about it.

Solid post.

andy2518
08-17-2015, 07:51 PM
I think it comes down to Durant or Kobe. I would give the edge to Kobe but it is pretty close and kinda depends on your definition of "pure scorer" too. Durant is better at the hoop and from 3 while Kobe is better in between. Durant can score more efficiently than Kobe in the flow of an offense but Kobe seems more capable of scoring at a high usage without it affecting his efficiency too much.

If Durant comes back healthy I could definitely see him changing my mind but for now I give the slight edge to Kobe. He has better footwork and handling while durant is taller and a better shooter.

Pretty solid as well. Thread is pretty much summed up nicely. Not too much trolling I have seen either.

JJ_JKidd
08-17-2015, 10:09 PM
Simple question. Is he? I'm not big on comparisons but I saw this debate on twitter and I'm intrigued to see what people on here think.

The only other argument I can see is Kobe.

Note I'm talking purely about scoring ability, cutting/driving, finishing at the rim, finishing through traffic, mid range shooting, three point shooting, shooting off the dribble, catch and shoot, splitting the defense, post scoring, footwork in general etc etc etc



edit; could a mod add a poll? I forgot to.

Its kinda vague. But scoring 81 points, 62 in 3 quarters, 4 straight 50 plus, or other concrete and discernible stat line deserves to be called a pure scorer.

FlashBolt
08-17-2015, 10:47 PM
You compare Kobe to two players who had to have team pre-planned team orchestrated efforts to let them shoot every time one night only to win a scoring title? Same Kobe who averaged 40 for a month, had 4 50+ games straight, and dropped 65 on Dallas in 3 quarters? Really? That equates to apples to apples by your basketball logic?

And you talk about taking people seriously?

Comedy gold!!

What? You clearly said KD never scored 82.. I basically gave an example in which scoring 82 isn't necessary because MJ is easily a top 3 scorer ever. Not sure what you're frustrated about. You expect someone to take you seriously when your argument involves whether or not a player has scored X amount of points. Buddy, if you read through my post, you'll see that I said Kobe is better than KD in terms of being a pure scorer. I'm not sure what difficulty you have in that regard. Comedy gold? Not really; my head hurts trying to figure out WTF you're talking about.

Tony_Starks
08-17-2015, 11:20 PM
Simple question. Is he? I'm not big on comparisons but I saw this debate on twitter and I'm intrigued to see what people on here think.

The only other argument I can see is Kobe.

Note I'm talking purely about scoring ability, cutting/driving, finishing at the rim, finishing through traffic, mid range shooting, three point shooting, shooting off the dribble, catch and shoot, splitting the defense, post scoring, footwork in general etc etc etc



edit; could a mod add a poll? I forgot to.

Its kinda vague. But scoring 81 points, 62 in 3 quarters, 4 straight 50 plus, or other concrete and discernible stat line deserves to be called a pure scorer.

Yep. That's pretty much the definition in my book.

Tony_Starks
08-17-2015, 11:24 PM
You compare Kobe to two players who had to have team pre-planned team orchestrated efforts to let them shoot every time one night only to win a scoring title? Same Kobe who averaged 40 for a month, had 4 50+ games straight, and dropped 65 on Dallas in 3 quarters? Really? That equates to apples to apples by your basketball logic?

And you talk about taking people seriously?

Comedy gold!!

What? You clearly said KD never scored 82.. I basically gave an example in which scoring 82 isn't necessary because MJ is easily a top 3 scorer ever. Not sure what you're frustrated about. You expect someone to take you seriously when your argument involves whether or not a player has scored X amount of points. Buddy, if you read through my post, you'll see that I said Kobe is better than KD in terms of being a pure scorer. I'm not sure what difficulty you have in that regard. Comedy gold? Not really; my head hurts trying to figure out WTF you're talking about.

I'm sorry, don't think so much.

I should've made it a little simpler for you, I assumed you would be able to use context and decipher that obviously Kobe did a lot of things in addition to the most historic scoring display since Wilt and his 81 scoring outburst is sorttof a snapshot of a pure scorer. You couldn't, sorry.

Indeed the answer is Kobe for reasons I've subsequently listed, so if you said him we agree.

Good job, rest your head now.

JJ_JKidd
08-17-2015, 11:33 PM
I know KDs not getting a lot of love now due to him missing mostly of last season thats why these nonsense immeasurable "pure" whatever stuff is coming up. God he coming back, now yall happy?

FlashBolt
08-18-2015, 02:14 AM
I'm sorry, don't think so much.

I should've made it a little simpler for you, I assumed you would be able to use context and decipher that obviously Kobe did a lot of things in addition to the most historic scoring display since Wilt and his 81 scoring outburst is sorttof a snapshot of a pure scorer. You couldn't, sorry.

Indeed the answer is Kobe for reasons I've subsequently listed, so if you said him we agree.

Good job, rest your head now.

Lol, just accept that you are terrible at this, please. Don't type something and then get frustrated and point fingers at someone for exposing your silly way of thinking. If you're trying to prove a point, at least do so with intent. Actually, this all could have been avoided if you simply found it in yourself to stop being so stubborn. I already said Kobe was the best pure scorer by the OP's standards. Don't you think I already took into consideration of his scoring prowess? You're just fighting your own words.

Jeffy25
08-19-2015, 05:24 AM
Different styles, but I would say so.

PhillyFaninLA
08-19-2015, 06:20 AM
Why would a low post scorer be any less "pure"? Also is "style" a part of it that trumps "results"? I've heard because LeBron's post game looks ugly at times "he's not a good post scorer" despite stats saying something completely different. Does taking and making low efficiency/high difficulty shots reward you with extra points as in the case of Kobe/Carmelo/etc?

Entire concept seems very shaky and prone to bias.

You do know that 99% of topics and posts on this site are bias....99% of topics and posts are about opinion and supporting of opinion. This is about the best since, so that automatically means opinion and thus some level of bias will exists.

PhillyFaninLA
08-19-2015, 06:21 AM
How about this:

Who gives a ****?


Said someone who clicked on the link and replied to the topic

PhillyFaninLA
08-19-2015, 06:23 AM
Come on, man. You are an ex Mod. Act like one.


seems like this is something and EX mod would do, not a current one

PhillyFaninLA
08-19-2015, 06:33 AM
Jordan retired in 02-03 so I 'm going to focus on after that and not think about overlap.

The best scorers I have seen since MJ retired are (in no particular order):

Iverson, Kobe, Durant, Wade, Lebron,

In the next tier and putting Melo, Dirk, Curry, I'm not sure they don't belong above from a scorer stand point but I just have a hard time putting them there

special mention - Vince Carter, T-Mac, Paul Pierce (he had moments but not enough to really be in the conversation), Shaq (not a conventional type of player in this conversation but I don't think anyone can deny he was a scorer)


real question:

Do shooters belong on this list? I'm not including guys I consider shooters and not scorers, but I think its an interesting question.

Jamiecballer
08-19-2015, 02:17 PM
i think the answer is probably yes. nobody else seems to do it as effortlessly as Durant. if Iverson hadn't shot such a dreadful percentage he would be the next name that came to mind.

MickeyMgl
08-19-2015, 06:43 PM
Why do you feel Kobe is better?

More explosive. (Greater propensity for explosive games, halves, quarters)

More aggressive. (Post-Shaq, less likely to defer. That's for better or worse, sure, but we're talking scorers, and making teammates feel good about themselves is definitely less important here.)

More versatile. (KD is probably the better pure *shooter*, but Bryant is (was) a great shooter AND a great athlete, AND an outstanding ballhandler, and able to invent shots, and a great "bad shot" maker (important when the team needs *a shot any shot*).

KD's efficiency is great, but Bryant's efficiency has been mitigated through the years by his shot difficulty and his willingness to play through injuries.

I don't like dismissing questions with stuff like "it's not even close", but it's more of a race for 2nd place. (Durant, Anthony, Curry, etc)

(Also let it be noted, when counting scoring titles, that Bryant pretty much handed Durant one in 2012 on the last game of the season by choosing to sit out in preparation for the playoffs.)

MickeyMgl
08-19-2015, 06:52 PM
He drop 82 yet?

Until then, nah.


And you expect people to take you seriously... By your logic, David Thompson and David Robinson are better scorers than MJ.

Well then let's keep sifting. Any of those guys (or Durant) drop 55 in a half? 30 in a quarter TWICE? Outscore an opponent through three quarters? It's not just about one performance.

PowerHouse
08-19-2015, 07:38 PM
Kobe is the closest thing to MJ since MJ so it has to be Kobe. Their offensive games are very similar the only thing that stands out in my mind different is that Kobe was not as good/skillful at getting baskets near the hoop. He would settle for outside shots more often. KD is a close second and T-mac third.

MELO 15
08-19-2015, 09:12 PM
Jordan retired in 02-03 so I 'm going to focus on after that and not think about overlap.

The best scorers I have seen since MJ retired are (in no particular order):

Iverson, Kobe, Durant, Wade, Lebron,

In the next tier and putting Melo, Dirk, Curry, I'm not sure they don't belong above from a scorer stand point but I just have a hard time putting them there

special mention - Vince Carter, T-Mac, Paul Pierce (he had moments but not enough to really be in the conversation), Shaq (not a conventional type of player in this conversation but I don't think anyone can deny he was a scorer)


real question:

Do shooters belong on this list? I'm not including guys I consider shooters and not scorers, but I think its an interesting question.

How you put Wade ahead of Melo and dirk, not being a homer or anything, I'm just trying to understand how a guy who isn't that good of a shooter make it b4 the guys mentioned in bold.

FlashBolt
08-20-2015, 02:11 AM
You guys have to go by the OP's standards of "pure." It's pretty obvious that would be Kobe. T-Mac is up there too.

nastynice
08-20-2015, 02:36 AM
I think this is kinda easily Kobe. He actually even had a more versatile offensive game than jordan from what I remember. But yea, weird question, ur comparing a guy who's had what, 3 yrs of elite basketball vs a guy who's had over/almost a decade. For me it's def Kobe, not as a hater or jock rider, just as someone who enjoys beautiful display of basketball skill

slashsnake
08-20-2015, 04:38 AM
How you put Wade ahead of Melo and dirk, not being a homer or anything, I'm just trying to understand how a guy who isn't that good of a shooter make it b4 the guys mentioned in bold.

Because scoring isn't shooting. I could see that. Wade had the higher peak as a scorer, Melo's been the more consistent one. Dirk has even more consistency, but Wade for 6 or so years was 25-30 a night. Dirk for 13 or so years was 20-25 a night.

If looking at peak, I'd go Wade first, Just depends on how you view it. Also Melo was the least efficient of those three...

FlashBolt
08-20-2015, 01:23 PM
Dirk has to be disqualified here. Read the question details. It's taking into consideration all aspects of scoring. Wade is certainly up there. Dirk's size just makes it really difficult to take shots that Wade and other players can. Allen Iverson doesn't belong here either. He wasn't really elite more-so it was the amount of shots he took.

KD
Kobe
T-Mac

Would be my top three (in no order).

PhillyFaninLA
08-20-2015, 01:33 PM
How you put Wade ahead of Melo and dirk, not being a homer or anything, I'm just trying to understand how a guy who isn't that good of a shooter make it b4 the guys mentioned in bold.


The question is about scorer not shooter...Dirk is more of a shooter....Wade and Melo are scorers....Wade is a score, so is Melo but I just don't believe its possible to win an NBA title with a guy like Melo and you can win with Wade...so I may be letting my beliefs deter me from being as fair as I should be

FlashBolt
08-20-2015, 02:19 PM
The question is about scorer not shooter...Dirk is more of a shooter....Wade and Melo are scorers....Wade is a score, so is Melo but I just don't believe its possible to win an NBA title with a guy like Melo and you can win with Wade...so I may be letting my beliefs deter me from being as fair as I should be

Well, that's because Wade is a more reliable player who can do more than score. He's hit 7 APG often.

flea
08-20-2015, 02:30 PM
The question is about scorer not shooter...Dirk is more of a shooter....Wade and Melo are scorers....Wade is a score, so is Melo but I just don't believe its possible to win an NBA title with a guy like Melo and you can win with Wade...so I may be letting my beliefs deter me from being as fair as I should be

What is this business with Dirk disqualified? He's a better scorer than both Wade and Melo. Melo is just a poor man's version of Dirk offensively, with less height and a little more athleticism. You got Dirk on your team, you've got a top 5 offense period. Wade and Melo don't have that sort of impact. Dirk can score well from every spot on the court, Wade is a 6'3 post player and slasher and Melo does what Dirk does except he's worse at it.

Wade was pretty good in his athletic prime, but that lasted all of like 5 years and he couldn't even carry an offense like Dirk could then. Heat fanboys are the only ones who can seriously think Wade is a better scorer than Dirk.

tredigs
08-20-2015, 02:35 PM
I think this is kinda easily Kobe. He actually even had a more versatile offensive game than jordan from what I remember. But yea, weird question, ur comparing a guy who's had what, 3 yrs of elite basketball vs a guy who's had over/almost a decade. For me it's def Kobe, not as a hater or jock rider, just as someone who enjoys beautiful display of basketball skill

KD's played for 8 years and has 4X the scoring titles that Kobe has. It's 2015.

Jamiecballer
08-20-2015, 03:29 PM
Dirk has to be disqualified here. Read the question details. It's taking into consideration all aspects of scoring. Wade is certainly up there. Dirk's size just makes it really difficult to take shots that Wade and other players can. Allen Iverson doesn't belong here either. He wasn't really elite more-so it was the amount of shots he took.

KD
Kobe
T-Mac

Would be my top three (in no order).

i disagree on iverson. he was certainly elite. what more could you possibly expect from a guy who was so undersized.

ManRam
08-20-2015, 03:38 PM
Still don't get what a "pure scorer" is. Still don't get why it's obsessed over.

The "pure scorer" debates are on the top-tier of unimportant sports debates topics. First, no one can ever define it well. Secondly, it seemingly is a way to ignore bad IQ, poor shot selection and inefficiency...among other things. Why do we care so much about the how and not just the results? Results are all that matter. You either get it done or you don't. You can either score well or you can't. It doesn't matter to me how you get those results, just that you do. I guess it's just a way to discredit players who are freak athletes? A way to defend the inefficient? (Tangent: that's why KD, when healthy, is the OBVIOUS answer to this question or any about scoring, mainly because he's the best scorer period, "pure" or not. People label him "pure", and unlike a lot others who get credit for their pureness, he's HYPER efficient)

Melo is a classical example. He's generally viewed as more skilled than athletic...so he's "pure". Just take 2009-2010, when Melo being the league's best "pure scorer" first became a thing (if not him, then Kobe...but I don't want to instigate the Kobephiles). Barkley called him the "best pure scorer", people picked it up and ran with it (or, if not him...Kobe). But why? Look at LeBron that year, someone who's this debate tends to discredit. He scored more points on fewer shots. He had 60.4% TS% to Melo's 54.8%. Both were on similarly talented teams (that's being generous) so that argument flies out the door. Why do we care again if Melo is a better "pure" scorer? That wasn't translating to better scoring.


I think it's pretty simple. In a vacuum, if all context is the same (teammates, burden, usage, opponents, etc), whoever gets the most points with the fewest wasted possessions is the best scorer. No? The better scorer you are, the more "pure" you are. Who cares how you do it? Not me. Just get those buckets and get them efficiently.

Gander13SM
08-20-2015, 03:56 PM
Still don't get what a "pure scorer" is. Still don't get why it's obsessed over.

The "pure scorer" debates are on the top-tier of unimportant sports debates topics. First, no one can ever define it well. Secondly, it seemingly is a way to ignore bad IQ, poor shot selection and inefficiency...among other things. Why do we care so much about the how and not just the results? Results are all that matter. You either get it done or you don't. You can either score well or you can't. It doesn't matter to me how you get those results, just that you do. I guess it's just a way to discredit players who are freak athletes? A way to defend the inefficient? (Tangent: that's why KD, when healthy, is the OBVIOUS answer to this question or any about scoring, mainly because he's the best scorer period, "pure" or not. People label him "pure", and unlike a lot others who get credit for their pureness, he's HYPER efficient)

Melo is a classical example. He's generally viewed as more skilled than athletic...so he's "pure". Just take 2009-2010, when Melo being the league's best "pure scorer" first became a thing (if not him, then Kobe...but I don't want to instigate the Kobephiles). Barkley called him the "best pure scorer", people picked it up and ran with it (or, if not him...Kobe). But why? Look at LeBron that year, someone who's this debate tends to discredit. He scored more points on fewer shots. He had 60.4% TS% to Melo's 54.8%. Both were on similarly talented teams (that's being generous) so that argument flies out the door. Why do we care again if Melo is a better "pure" scorer? That wasn't translating to better scoring.


I think it's pretty simple. In a vacuum, if all context is the same (teammates, burden, usage, opponents, etc), whoever gets the most points with the fewest wasted possessions is the best scorer. No? The better scorer you are, the more "pure" you are. Who cares how you do it? Not me. Just get those buckets and get them efficiently.


Tyson Chandler had a greate eFG% for years but he wasn't/isn't a better scorer than Aldridge (same can be said with DJ now).

Efficiency doesn't always make you the better scorer. It's not an excuse for inefficiency, that's a weak argument. KD is far from inefficient.

It's about being able to get buckets in almost any way possible, cutting, slashing, soft touch finishing around the rim, reverse lay ups, normal lay ups, euro steps, pro hops, being able to finish with both hands, able to switch hands, floaters, tear drops etc, posting up with up and unders, hooks, drop steps, fade aways etc mid range shooting, 3pt shooting, catch and shoot, shooting off the dribble, breaking down defenders, splitting double teams and so on.

I'm a big fan of the numbers but stats have yet to tell me who has the better variety of moves or ways to score. They can't tell me who has a more convincing array of fakes who establishes position in the post really well etc.

Pure scoring is about being efficient yes. But it's more about being able to score in a variety of ways.

Basketball is a team sport. But right now we're discussing the individual ability of scorers. Don't like it? That's fair enough. I get it. But let's just move on instead of derailing?

MDD
08-20-2015, 04:10 PM
Do you mean most versatile scorer I believe he is being able to scoring with high efficiency through all means of scoring high post, low post, 3pt, ft, triple threat ect..

Chronz
08-20-2015, 06:16 PM
Tyson Chandler had a greate eFG% for years but he wasn't/isn't a better scorer than Aldridge (same can be said with DJ now).

Efficiency doesn't always make you the better scorer. It's not an excuse for inefficiency, that's a weak argument. KD is far from inefficient.

It's about being able to get buckets in almost any way possible, cutting, slashing, soft touch finishing around the rim, reverse lay ups, normal lay ups, euro steps, pro hops, being able to finish with both hands, able to switch hands, floaters, tear drops etc, posting up with up and unders, hooks, drop steps, fade aways etc mid range shooting, 3pt shooting, catch and shoot, shooting off the dribble, breaking down defenders, splitting double teams and so on.

I'm a big fan of the numbers but stats have yet to tell me who has the better variety of moves or ways to score. They can't tell me who has a more convincing array of fakes who establishes position in the post really well etc.

Pure scoring is about being efficient yes. But it's more about being able to score in a variety of ways.

Basketball is a team sport. But right now we're discussing the individual ability of scorers. Don't like it? That's fair enough. I get it. But let's just move on instead of derailing?
Those guys are low usage. Horribly inept comparison when he's already accounted for that.

nastynice
08-20-2015, 06:39 PM
KD's played for 8 years and has 4X the scoring titles that Kobe has. It's 2015.

hm, so you feel he's been an elite scorer for 4 years? More?

How long do you think kobe's been an elite scorer?

tredigs
08-20-2015, 07:02 PM
hm, so you feel he's been an elite scorer for 4 years? More?

How long do you think kobe's been an elite scorer?

He's been an elite scorer since his 2nd year in the league when he started putting up >25 a night with high efficiency. 7 years. He's also led all players in playoff scoring 3 different seasons and averages 29 a game there (73 games, a very healthy sample size). He's both the youngest scoring champ and the youngest to post 50/40/90. And again, the guy is still only 26 but already has 4 scoring titles (half the years he's been in the league). I've seen enough of him to know he's the best scorer since MJ.

nastynice
08-20-2015, 08:01 PM
^^so ur telling me he's been an elite scorer for 7 years already?

hey, to each their own I guess

flea
08-20-2015, 08:10 PM
No way has Durant been elite at anything for 7 years. AD produced elite efficiency but I wouldn't say he's an elite scorer yet. He's a very good but predictable one. Many of the greats start that way, MJ did. If you're an elite scorer, to me, then you're a guy who can anchor an offense every or almost every game for playoff runs. Get physical with Durant or catch him when his jumper is off and he can be contained, and while his slashing game is pretty good it's not something I'd consider elite.

I think KD is a better offensive player the last few years than Wade ever was, for instance. But, if we're talking as a pure scorer, I'll take prime Wade over what Durant offers at this point in his career.

alexander_37
08-20-2015, 08:14 PM
I'd say T-mac and Durant are pretty even. Prime T-mac had a pretty trash team and didn't get to spot up nearly as much as Durant. Durant is the better shooter. Tmac was a better slasher.

I'd put prime McGrady over Kobe as a scorer but it's not like it's a big gap or anything. T-Mac was just so damn talented.

alexander_37
08-20-2015, 08:15 PM
No way has Durant been elite at anything for 7 years. AD produced elite efficiency but I wouldn't say he's an elite scorer yet. He's a very good but predictable one. Many of the greats start that way, MJ did. If you're an elite scorer, to me, then you're a guy who can anchor an offense every or almost every game for playoff runs. Get physical with Durant or catch him when his jumper is off and he can be contained, and while his slashing game is pretty good it's not something I'd consider elite.

I think KD is a better offensive player the last few years than Wade ever was, for instance. But, if we're talking as a pure scorer, I'll take prime Wade over what Durant offers at this point in his career.

I love Wade, but I think his offense gets overrated on PSD. He was a two way player and that was his biggest strength.

nastynice
08-20-2015, 08:18 PM
i disagree on iverson. he was certainly elite. what more could you possibly expect from a guy who was so undersized.

iverson was bananas. Me n my friends used to trip out while playing ball, we be like damn, that fool is shorter than us!! and taking it to the rack vs guys like shaq, that's just crazy. Yea, given his size, it like almost borderline unreal.

tredigs
08-20-2015, 08:46 PM
^^so ur telling me he's been an elite scorer for 7 years already?

hey, to each their own I guess
I mean, you can call it 7 seasons ago or 6 if you want to argue semantics, but it's been over half a decade now that he's been the best scorer in the NBA. 7 years ago (his first year in OKC), he averaged 25+ PPG on a 58% TS. That team was super young and not ready to win yet, but KD was already a top 5 scorer. So, if you rank in the top 1% of something out of the 450 players in the league, I think it's safe to call the player "elite" at that facet of the game. Considering he won 4 of the next 5 scoring titles (Melo taking nearly 5 more shots a night than him and averaging half a point more in the year he didn't hold it), it's not like that was a fluke. Not like he's really aided by Westbrook, either. I'm looking at it, and in that 2 month span that Westbrook went down in 2014 KD averaged 30/5/7 on 52/43/91 and they had a >70% win percentage. Hence the MVP (btw he already has more MVP Award shares than KG, Hakeem, Big O, Barkley, etc. He'll pass Kobe/Shaq/Duncan in another year or two barring injury).

MELO 15
08-20-2015, 09:02 PM
What is this business with Dirk disqualified? He's a better scorer than both Wade and Melo. Melo is just a poor man's version of Dirk offensively, with less height and a little more athleticism. You got Dirk on your team, you've got a top 5 offense period. Wade and Melo don't have that sort of impact. Dirk can score well from every spot on the court, Wade is a 6'3 post player and slasher and Melo does what Dirk does except he's worse at it.

Wade was pretty good in his athletic prime, but that lasted all of like 5 years and he couldn't even carry an offense like Dirk could then. Heat fanboys are the only ones who can seriously think Wade is a better scorer than Dirk.

Melo a pure all around scorer, here is a few things I'll list, and you tell me which one of these things dirk can't do.

Inside, outside, post, OFF THE DRIBBLE, LEADING THE LEAGUE IN SCORING! I'm pretty sure you'll fugue it out. Now has dirk been a better winner, of course. I won't even debate that. But pure scorer? Here is a few players that have went on record to admitting that Melo is the toughest player to guard. Paul Pierce ,Kobe, rudy gay, to name a few players who have said that he is even harder to guard than Wade, KD, even lebron. These are players who play the game and are known for there defense, with the exception of gay.

FlashBolt
08-20-2015, 11:55 PM
i disagree on iverson. he was certainly elite. what more could you possibly expect from a guy who was so undersized.

This is about the best pure scorer. You don't get points for being shorter than everyone. He wasn't elite by any means. His shooting was just average, he was a great slasher because of his handles/quickness, but he couldn't even hit FT's. Sorry, you gotta hit your FT's if you at least want to be taken seriously as a pure scorer. That shooting efficiency from Allen Iverson is very bad.



I'd say T-mac and Durant are pretty even. Prime T-mac had a pretty trash team and didn't get to spot up nearly as much as Durant. Durant is the better shooter. Tmac was a better slasher.

I'd put prime McGrady over Kobe as a scorer but it's not like it's a big gap or anything. T-Mac was just so damn talented.

If only KD was as athletic as T-Mac. He'd best even nastier on the offensive end. T-Mac vs Kobe is close but I gotta give it to the guy who is proven and went bananas on his scoring streaks. 9 straight games on 40+ points on insane efficiency. Then had another streak of 50+ points for four games. There was no one funner to watch than Kobe at that time.

Gander13SM
08-21-2015, 03:33 AM
Those guys are low usage. Horribly inept comparison when he's already accounted for that.

The point is being an efficient scorer isn't the same as being a versatile scorer. There's a reason Korver shoots better from 3pt range % wise but Steph is still regarded as the better shooter. Degree of difficulty. The variety of ways he can get his shot of.

It's the same when discussing pure scorers. CP3 may be more efficient than Melo but he's not the better scorer.

A pure scorer HAS to be able to score in a wide variety of ways with a ton of moves. Lots of tools in the toolbox. Then, once you've worked out who those guys are, you look at who does it better (efficiency wise).

I don't understand why people have trouble with that. This has always been the case. Even before advanced metrics.

Jamiecballer
08-21-2015, 04:26 PM
This is about the best pure scorer. You don't get points for being shorter than everyone. He wasn't elite by any means. His shooting was just average, he was a great slasher because of his handles/quickness, but he couldn't even hit FT's. Sorry, you gotta hit your FT's if you at least want to be taken seriously as a pure scorer. That shooting efficiency from Allen Iverson is very bad.




If only KD was as athletic as T-Mac. He'd best even nastier on the offensive end. T-Mac vs Kobe is close but I gotta give it to the guy who is proven and went bananas on his scoring streaks. 9 straight games on 40+ points on insane efficiency. Then had another streak of 50+ points for four games. There was no one funner to watch than Kobe at that time.
And therein lies the rub and its been noted more than once already. The definition is almost impossible to agree on.

I didn't say he was an effective scorer. That to me is a different question altogether.

ManRam
08-21-2015, 08:00 PM
Tyson Chandler had a greate eFG% for years but he wasn't/isn't a better scorer than Aldridge (same can be said with DJ now).

Efficiency doesn't always make you the better scorer. It's not an excuse for inefficiency, that's a weak argument. KD is far from inefficient.

It's about being able to get buckets in almost any way possible, cutting, slashing, soft touch finishing around the rim, reverse lay ups, normal lay ups, euro steps, pro hops, being able to finish with both hands, able to switch hands, floaters, tear drops etc, posting up with up and unders, hooks, drop steps, fade aways etc mid range shooting, 3pt shooting, catch and shoot, shooting off the dribble, breaking down defenders, splitting double teams and so on.

I'm a big fan of the numbers but stats have yet to tell me who has the better variety of moves or ways to score. They can't tell me who has a more convincing array of fakes who establishes position in the post really well etc.

Pure scoring is about being efficient yes. But it's more about being able to score in a variety of ways.

Basketball is a team sport. But right now we're discussing the individual ability of scorers. Don't like it? That's fair enough. I get it. But let's just move on instead of derailing?

come on, man. tyson chandler? let's try harder.

i'm not an idiot (well, it's debatable i guess). i understand why tyson chandler's high eFG% doesn't make him a great scorer :laugh: i mentioned usage, burden etc. pretty clearly.

i'm also not saying you only have to look at stats here. i mentioned one stat. i was making every effort to speak far more generally and simplistically. the better you are at scoring on any given possession the better the scorer you are. ignoring efficiency is just silly.

slashsnake
08-22-2015, 08:15 AM
^^so ur telling me he's been an elite scorer for 7 years already?

hey, to each their own I guess

You are saying he isn't? 7 straight years of 25+ a game on 50% or better Efg%. That's 6th all time in years doing that.

slashsnake
08-22-2015, 09:17 AM
No way has Durant been elite at anything for 7 years. AD produced elite efficiency but I wouldn't say he's an elite scorer yet. He's a very good but predictable one. Many of the greats start that way, MJ did. If you're an elite scorer, to me, then you're a guy who can anchor an offense every or almost every game for playoff runs. Get physical with Durant or catch him when his jumper is off and he can be contained, and while his slashing game is pretty good it's not something I'd consider elite.

I think KD is a better offensive player the last few years than Wade ever was, for instance. But, if we're talking as a pure scorer, I'll take prime Wade over what Durant offers at this point in his career.

Not sure what you mean about predictable and catching him when his jumper was off. 2013/14 the lowest scoring output that wasn't a blowout was 20 points for him.

I guess predictable in that he doesn't have bad scoring games. Like less than anyone else over the past 7 years by far.


Past 7 years, games with 15 or fewer points.

Westbrook - 136
Curry 128 (13 just this past year)
Love - 100
Dirk 103
Rose 98
Wade 89
Irving 75
Blake 75
Melo 59
Kobe 44
Lebron 33
Durant 21

Take Wade's best 7 years as a scorer, 04-10. 52 games with 15 or fewer.

Kobe's best 02-08 44 times held to 15 or fewer.

Jordan's best 86-92... 10 times held to 15 or fewer (wow...)


Really Durant the past 7 years has been a more reliable scorer than possibly anyone since MJ. I still give this thread vote to Kobe as he was much longer in his scoring years... but Durant the past 7 years has been ABSOLUTELY ELITE when it comes to scoring.

he gets contained less than anyone if you ask me.

Same with the playoffs... 5 times he failed to put up at least 21 points... Curry's been to 3 post-seasons and been held under 20 twice as much (3 times just this past year). Dirk in the past 7 years fewer playoffs, 3 times as many low scoring games. Westbrook 21 times. Lebron is twice as likely to score under 20 in a post-season game as Durant. Durant played more games in the playoffs then Kobe in that time but Kobe has 7 more games where he failed to hit 20.


Honestly that's where Durant really shines. He doesn't get contained. He is probably the most reliable scorer to put up a good number of points. It isn't just leading the league in 40 point games the past 7 years, it's the flip side of being the player with the fewest low scoring games too.

You say he isn't the best slasher. Ok but he's top 20. He isn't the best at drawing fouls, but top 10. He isn't the best shooter but top 10. He has so many ways he can efficiently score, you can take away the outside shot, and he still can carry the load when it isn't going. He can go 3-13 from downtown and still put up 48 points because of the rest of his game. He can go 2-8 from downtown, only get to the line once, but go 13-15 inside and put up 32 points.

flea
08-22-2015, 01:37 PM
You've proven to me just that he's a scorer who must score for his team to win, whether he's on or not. There have been a number of games where his jumper was off and there wasn't much he could do to help his team win, but he's like Lebron in that the entire offense is built around him putting up numbers. Win or lose, the PPG are there.

When his J is off he doesn't do much except try his floaters and flop. He'd probably get more criticism for his slashing game if Harden didn't exist, but Durant is almost as shameless going into the paint purely to throw his limbs around. He's been contained a number of times in the playoffs. Look at his rate splits - he's a markedly worse player in the playoffs and the only reason his career numbers still look respectable is because of his Finals run. To me that says his game isn't well-rounded enough to sustain its regular season production against playoff caliber teams.

I want to see a post game, less turnovers and better ball handling, or better footwork as a slasher before I call him the best pure scorer since MJ. Anchoring an offense for a playoff run would go a long way, like Dirk and Kobe have already done. The Thunder's Finals run was nice, but it was more about the precocious young talent as a team than it was about Durant. But yes, he's a fine scorer who can put up numbers.

tredigs
08-22-2015, 03:33 PM
You've proven to me just that he's a scorer who must score for his team to win, whether he's on or not. There have been a number of games where his jumper was off and there wasn't much he could do to help his team win, but he's like Lebron in that the entire offense is built around him putting up numbers. Win or lose, the PPG are there.

When his J is off he doesn't do much except try his floaters and flop. He'd probably get more criticism for his slashing game if Harden didn't exist, but Durant is almost as shameless going into the paint purely to throw his limbs around. He's been contained a number of times in the playoffs. Look at his rate splits - he's a markedly worse player in the playoffs and the only reason his career numbers still look respectable is because of his Finals run. To me that says his game isn't well-rounded enough to sustain its regular season production against playoff caliber teams.

I want to see a post game, less turnovers and better ball handling, or better footwork as a slasher before I call him the best pure scorer since MJ. Anchoring an offense for a playoff run would go a long way, like Dirk and Kobe have already done. The Thunder's Finals run was nice, but it was more about the precocious young talent as a team than it was about Durant. But yes, he's a fine scorer who can put up numbers.

Find me a player (ever) of KD's height who is as dynamic as him with the dribble, slashing, shooting, etc. He's added a better post game, playmaking ability and better footwork as the years have progressed. I honestly question how much of him you truly watch, or whether or not you simply forgot how dominant he is due to the injured season.

Edit: Here, maybe this will help jot your memory:

Slashes/dunks on the break, etc: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYoMyWhewzo

Post moves/Fades: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5_muizwtF7w

Variety in his 52 over Dallas: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wKd22kqPFcc

flea
08-22-2015, 03:35 PM
Pretty sure I wasn't saying he's bad. IMO he's the 2nd best player in the league, if healthy. And that's with me thinking his defense is below average.

tredigs
08-22-2015, 03:43 PM
Pretty sure I wasn't saying he's bad. IMO he's the 2nd best player in the league, if healthy. And that's with me thinking his defense is below average.

I'm saying he has a WIDE variety of ways that he scores, and that at his height his combination of dribbling/slashing/playmaking/shooting ability is not only incredible, but unprecedented. I just don't think you're giving him his just due as to why he's been so dominant.