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View Full Version : What Would LeBron have to do to become the GOAT?



Jeffy25
08-14-2015, 01:23 PM
Win 4+ more chips? 5? Be the all-time scoring leader while being top 25 in boards and top 5 in assists?

Or he can't possibly at this point?

What would it take for you to make him the consensus number 1?

Tony_Starks
08-14-2015, 01:29 PM
3 more rings. Preferably a 3peat making him 5/9.

That and only that.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2015, 01:32 PM
take a timeship back to 2011 and not suck in the finals.

mngopher35
08-14-2015, 01:54 PM
I am not someone who judges based off just rings or anything but with the way this Cavs team is shaping up (and where he is currently) I think he would likely need a few rings and not much drop in play over the next 5ish years.

Really I think we are at the point where it is near impossible for him to end up better than MJ. I kind of doubt he will make it to 2 either with Kareems resume. Anything after that is a bit more open and I think he is on track for top 5, but to get up into the top 2 he would have to have great play (so little drop off)+success over the next 5 plus years.

bucketss
08-14-2015, 01:59 PM
start improving.

unfortunately his legacy is judged by things like finals records and rings, or whether or not he wins with a super team or not. and not his actual game on the floor.

ewing
08-14-2015, 02:04 PM
go back in time, kill micheal jordan, have a better career

ManRam
08-14-2015, 02:14 PM
Go back in time and not spend the first 7 years on the Cavs. Also, 2011 is BAD.

He doesn't really have a shot at this point unless he wins 4-5 more Finals and Finals MVPs, which is hard to imagine. The Finals losses (justified or not) just hurt too much in too many people's eyes. Whether it's fair or not, team success matters too much...and Finals losses are viewed as something absolutely abhorrent. He's got a bunch of them.

Tony_Starks
08-14-2015, 02:16 PM
I am not someone who judges based off just rings or anything but with the way this Cavs team is shaping up (and where he is currently) I think he would likely need a few rings and not much drop in play over the next 5ish years.

Really I think we are at the point where it is near impossible for him to end up better than MJ. I kind of doubt he will make it to 2 either with Kareems resume. Anything after that is a bit more open and I think he is on track for top 5, but to get up into the top 2 he would have to have great play (so little drop off)+success over the next 5 plus years.

Probably never passing Magic, MJ, or Kareem for me. Passing the likes of Bird or Timmy will be quite the accomplishment in my book.

xxplayerxx23
08-14-2015, 02:19 PM
I think if he wins 3 more championships and ends up being top 3 in scoring top 5 in assists he would have a case. Prob won't happen

mngopher35
08-14-2015, 02:25 PM
Probably never passing Magic, MJ, or Kareem for me. Passing the likes of Bird or Timmy will be quite the accomplishment in my book.

I think Magic is within reach at 6th and that he has already passed Bird. His longevity advantage on those two should be pretty nice in a few years and he is already pretty close in accolades (especially individual) while having better stats and defense imo.

I agree that Duncan is one where it will be very hard to get to, but he has put himself in position to have a chance. I have Duncan/Shaq at 4/5 and think Lebron could definitely be in that range if he doesn't fall off drastically. A ring in Cleveland will really help his cause on breaking into that group.

nickdymez
08-14-2015, 02:34 PM
start improving.

unfortunately his legacy is judged by things like finals records and rings, or whether or not he wins with a super team or not. and not his actual game on the floor.

And you're judging purely off stats. His game on the floor doesn't make him the goat at all.

Lebron can never be the GOAT. Its to late. Had he stayed with Clevland and won a few there, I would have considered it myself. But jumping ship twice to stacked teams in a weak conference, naw.....

GoferKing_
08-14-2015, 03:45 PM
I'm sorry but LBJ will never be GOAT. nickdymez said it all.

Dade County
08-14-2015, 03:52 PM
take a timeship back to 2011 and not suck in the finals.

Yeah, I always bring this up... I can't believe people can't tell that he wasn't playing for real.


What Lbj has to do to be considered the GOAT; I really don't think he can do anything to surpass Mj, because he already gave other teams rings that shouldn't have rings. Mj shut HOF out.

But if Lbj can 4peat then he can be considered up there with Mj and whoever else people have ahead of him; he has to do something that Mj hasn't done... So yeah, he should have never left Pat Riley and he shouldn't have given Dallas a championship.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2015, 03:55 PM
I am not someone who judges based off just rings or anything but with the way this Cavs team is shaping up (and where he is currently) I think he would likely need a few rings and not much drop in play over the next 5ish years.

Really I think we are at the point where it is near impossible for him to end up better than MJ. I kind of doubt he will make it to 2 either with Kareems resume. Anything after that is a bit more open and I think he is on track for top 5, but to get up into the top 2 he would have to have great play (so little drop off)+success over the next 5 plus years.

I think LeBron shoots into the top 5 by career end, but can he really catch my 2 tiers?

MJ

KAJ/Wilt

Not sure. I think he ends up sliding right in after those 3, and ahead of Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Magic tier

Scoots
08-14-2015, 04:00 PM
At this point there is no way he can be the consensus GOAT. It's just too late. In the NBA there is always a group you are a part of. Wilt, Russel, Big O, MJ, Magic, Bird ... there is always a group. MJ came as close as anyone to being the GOAT but even with him the debate hasn't stopped and when he was still playing people started talking up Kobe.

Bruno
08-14-2015, 04:02 PM
LBJ will never pass MJ.

but IMO he's better than Magic and Bird, who I think are both slightly overrated. I'd never take LBJ over a guy like Duncan in a redraft either.

Burkey3472
08-14-2015, 04:05 PM
At least 4 more titles as the primary player on his team, 2-3 more MVP's, and 5-6 years of elite level play. That would leave him with the same amount of titles as Jordan, 1-2 more MVP's, and an elite player for 15+ years. Chances of this are very slim though.

Minimal
08-14-2015, 04:10 PM
5 more of either: Rings, MVP + Keeping high production of play for numerous years.

FraziersKnicks
08-14-2015, 04:12 PM
I think the GOAT ship has sailed for Bron, but if he won 2/3 more rings with 2/3 more Finals MVP's he would be pushing for #2 all time with KAJ.

One more ring and Finals MVP whilst sustaining this level of play for another 3 years and then having a gentle decline (20/5/7 from 34-37) and he's a lock for top 5 and a good candidate for top 3.

mngopher35
08-14-2015, 04:20 PM
I think LeBron shoots into the top 5 by career end, but can he really catch my 2 tiers?

MJ

KAJ/Wilt

Not sure. I think he ends up sliding right in after those 3, and ahead of Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem, Magic tier

I think it is possible for him to end up with a good comparison to Wilt. Kaj will be very tough IMO but Wilt is a little bit easier. Lebron can reach the longevity of Wilt, is up there in stats (playoff stats are better, rs will likely be worse), and could end up looking better in the accolades department too. Kaj is a bit of a different story.

When it comes to tiers I think there is a little gap in my rankings from TD/Shaq to Magic/Hakeem. Right now Lebron is right behind them but I think he can move up in/pass the Magic/Hakeem tier soon if things go right.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2015, 04:26 PM
I think it is possible for him to end up with a good comparison to Wilt. Kaj will be very tough IMO but Wilt is a little bit easier. Lebron can reach the longevity of Wilt, is up there in stats (playoff stats are better, rs will likely be worse), and could end up looking better in the accolades department too. Kaj is a bit of a different story.

When it comes to tiers I think there is a little gap in my rankings from TD/Shaq to Magic/Hakeem. Right now Lebron is right behind them but I think he can move up in/pass the Magic/Hakeem tier soon if things go right.

I do a tier system. I am not interested in arguing amongst the tiers, I only start in if a player is in a different tier than I have them. I won't fight for a guy over another guy in the same tier.

MJ
KAJ/Wilt
Shaq/Duncan/Dream/Magic
Bird/LeBron/Kobe/Russell

I think LeBron for sure ends up in my 3rd tier, and I think he has a good shot at my 2nd tier is he stays healthy and puts up great numbers

Tony_Starks
08-14-2015, 04:28 PM
At this point there is no way he can be the consensus GOAT. It's just too late. In the NBA there is always a group you are a part of. Wilt, Russel, Big O, MJ, Magic, Bird ... there is always a group. MJ came as close as anyone to being the GOAT but even with him the debate hasn't stopped and when he was still playing people started talking up Kobe.


I'm one of those in the minority that doesn't have MJ as undisputed GOAT. Can make argument for KAJ, can make an argument for Magic.

But whichever one it is I can't see him passing any of them. He'll be somewhere in the Kobe,Shaq, Duncan pool.

Scoots
08-14-2015, 04:34 PM
How many consensus GOATs are there in sports? Jerry Rice comes very close in football (I didn't rank him there until he was still a pro-bowl player in his 40s), Wayne Gretzky I think is pretty much agreed upon as the Greatest Of All Time. Michael Schmacher in F1? Valentino Rossi in GP bikes? At the moment I can't think of any other great champions that have almost no comparisons for their talent and achievements within their sports. To be the GOAT it has to be obvious.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2015, 04:40 PM
I'm one of those in the minority that doesn't have MJ as undisputed GOAT. Can make argument for KAJ, can make an argument for Magic.

But whichever one it is I can't see him passing any of them. He'll be somewhere in the Kobe,Shaq, Duncan pool.

I am not sure I have responded to your Magic opinion, but you overrate him badly. He is not in MJ or KAJ's class, not even Wilts. A lot of people have him ranked under Duncan/Shaq too. I have him with those 2, and Dream, and even I feel as if I might be overrating him just a tad.

There isn't a case that can be made for Magic over MJ.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2015, 04:41 PM
How many consensus GOATs are there in sports? Jerry Rice comes very close in football (I didn't rank him there until he was still a pro-bowl player in his 40s), Wayne Gretzky I think is pretty much agreed upon as the Greatest Of All Time. Michael Schmacher in F1? Valentino Rossi in GP bikes? At the moment I can't think of any other great champions that have almost no comparisons for their talent and achievements within their sports. To be the GOAT it has to be obvious.


Gretzky and Jordan are the only ones of the major sports where there really isn't a fundamental argument against them being the greatest to ever play the sport. Sure there are outliers, but I would guess roughly 90+% of anyone who has followed hockey/basketball would pick those 2.

mngopher35
08-14-2015, 04:44 PM
I do a tier system. I am not interested in arguing amongst the tiers, I only start in if a player is in a different tier than I have them. I won't fight for a guy over another guy in the same tier.

MJ
KAJ/Wilt
Shaq/Duncan/Dream/Magic
Bird/LeBron/Kobe/Russell

I think LeBron for sure ends up in my 3rd tier, and I think he has a good shot at my 2nd tier is he stays healthy and puts up great numbers

Then I would agree with you based off that tier system. I would probably move him up to that next tier pretty soon though (assuming nothing major affects him).

Scoots
08-14-2015, 04:51 PM
Gretzky and Jordan are the only ones of the major sports where there really isn't a fundamental argument against them being the greatest to ever play the sport. Sure there are outliers, but I would guess roughly 90+% of anyone who has followed hockey/basketball would pick those 2.

I'm an MJ fan and I've seen/heard a LOT of debate about him over the years. But if he's not the consensus he's very very close to it.

mngopher35
08-14-2015, 04:54 PM
I guess I didn't see or think about that part, Lebron will never be the consensus GOAT. My answer was more based on what would he have to do for many people to think he's the goat or have an argument with MJ.

PowerHouse
08-14-2015, 05:35 PM
Win.

All the other credentials are pretty much covered already.

Munkeysuit
08-14-2015, 06:00 PM
Unfortunately for Lebron, nowadays people wont allow him to be the greatest of all time unless he wins 4+ more titles and maybe climbs up to 3rd or 4th all time in scoring...Michael Jordan set the bar so high with his flawless 6-0 NBA Finals record and jaw dropping highlights, that it's not going to be easy for ANY player after him to knock him off of that pedestal.
Jordan came in and blew the NBA wide open with his style of play, competitiveness and unique character. Lebron does sort of the same with his athleticism and mixture of power and grace, but he wasn't as fortunate as Michael and ultimately not as successful in the titles department and never will be.
So the argument of Lebron becoming the GOAT is far from over BUT becoming a bit more clearer to define as his career comes closer to an end, I just hope he's judged fairly and not so much criticized for his short comings, I mean if a guy like Lebron James can fall short of MJ...just imagine the scrutiny that will come to the other up and coming stars of the game.

More-Than-Most
08-14-2015, 06:18 PM
I am not big on measuring people by rings but even I think he needs 2 more... I think he will end up top 3 all time but even I doubt he will be better than Jordan. 2 more makes it an argument.

More-Than-Most
08-14-2015, 06:19 PM
take a timeship back to 2011 and not suck in the finals.

Cant defend this... It will literally always be the one undefensable negative on him... He choked against the mavs.

Tony_Starks
08-14-2015, 06:28 PM
I'm one of those in the minority that doesn't have MJ as undisputed GOAT. Can make argument for KAJ, can make an argument for Magic.

But whichever one it is I can't see him passing any of them. He'll be somewhere in the Kobe,Shaq, Duncan pool.

I am not sure I have responded to your Magic opinion, but you overrate him badly. He is not in MJ or KAJ's class, not even Wilts. A lot of people have him ranked under Duncan/Shaq too. I have him with those 2, and Dream, and even I feel as if I might be overrating him just a tad.

There isn't a case that can be made for Magic over MJ.

For me when I factor in the competition he had to beat, impact on winning from day 1, the fact that there has never even been a close second to a replica, impact on the game, redefining the fast break, impact on teammates, versatility, and most important leadership intangibles I can easily make a case for Magic.

Im in the very small minority that has him best ever but consensus is easily top 5, most times top 3.

Him aside I can make just as easy a case for KAJ over MJ as well. The only thing you can technically hold "against" KAJ and Magic is playing together but MJ had plenty of help as did most of the greats.

I just don't buy MJ as hands down the best. He beat a lot of great players on their way out the door IMO. Its not his fault he didn't have the weapons to deal with the Celtic/BadBoys/ Showtime but regardless he didn't beat them at their pinnacle.

When MJ was playing their was never this huge consensus he was the "greatest ever" it was narrative that got started the further away from the game he got, perpetuated by ESPN/ the media and finally made into mythology by a lot of people that never even seen him play.

Shlumpledink
08-14-2015, 06:34 PM
He needs to have a couple more seasons of top notch defense. I think its hard to supplant Kareem, but I think he can do it.

Tony_Starks
08-14-2015, 06:50 PM
take a timeship back to 2011 and not suck in the finals.

Cant defend this... It will literally always be the one undefensable negative on him... He choked against the mavs.


You what's funny, as big a critic of Lebron as I am, that epic choke didn't even kill the conversation for me. Magic had a big choke the first go round at Bird, then came back stronger and made amends for years. I actually hold what happened afterwards against Lebron more. Not being able to get a 3peat with that squad, bailing on a team that went to 3 straight Finals then taking another L.

For me team hopping is bad enough,but when you team hop for the sake of rings and still take L's then I officially tap out.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2015, 07:00 PM
And you're judging purely off stats. His game on the floor doesn't make him the goat at all.

Lebron can never be the GOAT. Its to late. Had he stayed with Clevland and won a few there, I would have considered it myself. But jumping ship twice to stacked teams in a weak conference, naw.....

He literally just said yo judge his game on the court. Who said anything about stats?

Also, I remember you saying that you had Wilt ranked high and pointed to his stats...

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2015, 07:01 PM
He won't ever be considered #1. Talent and production wise, he's on par with Jordan but he doesn't have the accolades to match him.

He's already top 10 though and could end up top 3 quite easily (1 title can put him in top 5 converstation for many).

Hawkeye15
08-14-2015, 07:01 PM
For me when I factor in the competition he had to beat, impact on winning from day 1, the fact that there has never even been a close second to a replica, impact on the game, redefining the fast break, impact on teammates, versatility, and most important leadership intangibles I can easily make a case for Magic.

Im in the very small minority that has him best ever but consensus is easily top 5, most times top 3.

Him aside I can make just as easy a case for KAJ over MJ as well. The only thing you can technically hold "against" KAJ and Magic is playing together but MJ had plenty of help as did most of the greats.

I just don't buy MJ as hands down the best. He beat a lot of great players on their way out the door IMO. Its not his fault he didn't have the weapons to deal with the Celtic/BadBoys/ Showtime but regardless he didn't beat them at their pinnacle.

When MJ was playing their was never this huge consensus he was the "greatest ever" it was narrative that got started the further away from the game he got, perpetuated by ESPN/ the media and finally made into mythology by a lot of people that never even seen him play.

Magic has zero case. He was a poor defender, and you are really going to stick it to Jordan for having Woolridge as his 2nd best player early, versus Magic having Kareem, Nixon, Wilkes, then Scott, Worthy, list goes on.....before Jordan finally got help 5-6 years into his career? Bs dude.

Jordan's offensive rating was similar to Magic's, so all those teammates Magic was feeding and making better, the results didn't matter. And you are defending a player closer to LeBron over Jordan, who your boy is a watered down version of in Kobe. Jordan is Kobe with way more efficiency.

Nobody gets the consensus as GOAT while they are in the prime of their career. Magic and Larry even talked about how awesome Jordan was, that he was doing things the game had never seen.

You don't think Magic/Larry enjoyed their legacys being bigger because of media? And who cares about media.

Magic has no dog in this fight dude. KAJ? Eh, I could listen. But nobody dominated both ends like Michael Jordan, with that efficiency, and success.

Magic is probably on the fence top 5 all time, consensus wise btw. I think he would land right around 6-7 personally. Defense man, and longevity were not his friends. That matters.

naps
08-14-2015, 07:03 PM
How many consensus GOATs are there in sports? Jerry Rice comes very close in football (I didn't rank him there until he was still a pro-bowl player in his 40s), Wayne Gretzky I think is pretty much agreed upon as the Greatest Of All Time. Michael Schmacher in F1? Valentino Rossi in GP bikes? At the moment I can't think of any other great champions that have almost no comparisons for their talent and achievements within their sports. To be the GOAT it has to be obvious.

Sir Donald Bradman if you know what sports he represents.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2015, 07:06 PM
I said something about stats Troll. How else is judging him? Looks? Penis size? FOH

Dude what the **** are you talking about?

Buckets made a comment saying that his game should be judged more by his actual game on the floor as opposed to placing heavy emphasis on rings/super teams/etc and nowhere in his post did he make a reference to looking at his stats. Then you came in and outright accused him of judging Lebron based on stats alone...

MTar786
08-14-2015, 07:09 PM
For lebron to be considered the goat

he would have to not go 2-4 in the finals

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2015, 07:12 PM
Go back in time and not spend the first 7 years on the Cavs. Also, 2011 is BAD.

He doesn't really have a shot at this point unless he wins 4-5 more Finals and Finals MVPs, which is hard to imagine. The Finals losses (justified or not) just hurt too much in too many people's eyes. Whether it's fair or not, team success matters too much...and Finals losses are viewed as something absolutely abhorrent. He's got a bunch of them.

Yea, this.

If he was drafted to a competent team, Lebron wouldn't be looked at the way he is right now. His production will probably be the same but his team success would be much better. Funny how you can have the same type of production in 2 completely different scenarios and you're looked at completely differently. Lebron could produce like a 4 time MVP on a consistent championship team like the Spurs quite easily. He'd probably be #2 all time if he was drafted to the Spurs organization.

More-Than-Most
08-14-2015, 07:18 PM
You what's funny, as big a critic of Lebron as I am, that epic choke didn't even kill the conversation for me. Magic had a big choke the first go round at Bird, then came back stronger and made amends for years. I actually hold what happened afterwards against Lebron more. Not being able to get a 3peat with that squad, bailing on a team that went to 3 straight Finals then taking another L.

For me team hopping is bad enough,but when you team hop for the sake of rings and still take L's then I officially tap out.

wade and bosh honestly played like **** in the recent playoffs... if I was James I would have left as well

More-Than-Most
08-14-2015, 07:20 PM
Yea, this.

If he was drafted to a competent team, Lebron wouldn't be looked at the way he is right now. His production will probably be the same but his team success would be much better. Funny how you can have the same type of production in 2 completely different scenarios and you're looked at completely differently. Lebron could produce like a 4 time MVP on a consistent championship team like the Spurs quite easily. He'd probably be #2 all time if he was drafted to the Spurs organization.

100 percent spot on

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2015, 07:20 PM
I don't want to argue with a troll who loves LeBron, about LeBron. I said my ****in piece. You don't like, who gives a ****.

:laugh2:

I wasn't debating anything to you about Lebron at all. All I did was literally ask a question about your comment that I thought didn't make any sense (because it didn't)...

But Yea, I'm a Troll For Asking a Question....

Vincent33
08-14-2015, 07:24 PM
To become GOAT I think we're talking a minimum 8-peat folks.

naps
08-14-2015, 07:26 PM
When MJ was playing their was never this huge consensus he was the "greatest ever" it was narrative that got started the further away from the game he got, perpetuated by ESPN/ the media and finally made into mythology by a lot of people that never even seen him play.


Jordan was being hailed as the GOAT during his first retirement by the man you are trying to label as the GOAT. Then Jordan cameback and doubled his accomplishments. You just can't make a case for Magic over Jordan because there is NONE. Jordan's resume and individual brilliance at both ends take a dump on Magic. There is a gulf between the two when it comes to GOAT argument.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2015, 07:27 PM
Most people don't recognize him as GOAT and don't expect him to be the GOAT. But he's clearly got a few great years ahead of him to be in the next tier below Jordan (2nd to 5th best of all time).

naps
08-14-2015, 07:29 PM
Put a gun to my head and I say he clearly finishes as the #3 all-time with a very good chance at finishing as the #2. He is no Jordan but there is no shame in it because no one is Jordan.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2015, 07:31 PM
Magic's ranking would dramatically drop if he was drafted on a ****** team to begin his career like most #1 picks. He went straight to a team with multiple HOF. He'd still be a good player but doubt anyone has him in the top 10 if he doesn't make the finals 9 times.

naps
08-14-2015, 07:34 PM
Exactly ^^. Not everyone is lucky enough to start their careers next to Kareem or Shaq. Imagine if LeBron started his career playing next to Shaq or Kareem...

bucketss
08-14-2015, 07:42 PM
And you're judging purely off stats. His game on the floor doesn't make him the goat at all.

Lebron can never be the GOAT. Its to late. Had he stayed with Clevland and won a few there, I would have considered it myself. But jumping ship twice to stacked teams in a weak conference, naw.....

if we're judging by his game, hes somewhat of a jordan/magic hybrid. its close but i'd give jordan the edge. but the whole rings thing makes it seem like its not as close as its suppose to be.


i didn't even mention stats but okay... if i did,jordan and other greats would have him beat there anyways.

PowerHouse
08-14-2015, 07:58 PM
To become GOAT I think we're talking a minimum 8-peat folks.

Bill Russell has been there done that already. I think we're talking more like a 12-peat.

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2015, 08:05 PM
Exactly ^^. Not everyone is lucky enough to start their careers next to Kareem or Shaq. Imagine if LeBron started his career playing next to Shaq or Kareem...

Since you brought him up, I NEVER see anyone **** on Shaq for leaving a team that had made the finals a few seasons ago (and Magic won over 60 games when he left). Shaq made it to the finals then left to join the Lakers because he said he knew Jerry West would build him a team that had the opportunity to win much more (he said he didn't do it for the money too). It obviously wasn't Wade and Bosh but he said he knew it would be better than what he had in Orlando and ended up going to a team with the 1995 COY as well as Eddie Jones (who everyone knew was going to be an all star and ended up being an all star the 1st year Shaq came over). And we all know Kobe was there (Kobe was an all star in Shaq's 2nd year on the Lakers and was already being compared to the next Jordan at the time).

SLY WILLIAMS
08-14-2015, 08:34 PM
Its not about teams or rings for me. Its about the ice in the veins killer confidence and ability. Jordan had it. Bird had it. Lebron does not have it. Lebron is a great top 10 player but when the game is on the line he is not that kind of player.

Tony_Starks
08-14-2015, 08:36 PM
Exactly ^^. Not everyone is lucky enough to start their careers next to Kareem or Shaq. Imagine if LeBron started his career playing next to Shaq or Kareem...

Since you brought him up, I NEVER see anyone **** on Shaq for leaving a team that had made the finals a few seasons ago (and Magic won over 60 games when he left). Shaq made it to the finals then left to join the Lakers because he said he knew Jerry West would build him a team that had the opportunity to win much more (he said he didn't do it for the money too). It obviously wasn't Wade and Bosh but he said he knew it would be better than what he had in Orlando and ended up going to a team with the 1995 COY as well as Eddie Jones (who everyone knew was going to be an all star and ended up being an all star the 1st year Shaq came over). And we all know Kobe was there (Kobe was an all star in Shaq's 2nd year on the Lakers and was already being compared to the next Jordan at the time).

Not really the same. Kobe was supposed to be a flashy burnout, its not like he joined a established top tier superstar or even all-star. Let the critics tell it Kobe was Harold Miner 2.0.

Shaq also had Eddie Jones traded BTW...

Raps18-19 Champ
08-14-2015, 08:45 PM
Not really the same. Kobe was supposed to be a flashy burnout, its not like he joined a established top tier superstar or even all-star. Let the critics tell it Kobe was Harold Miner 2.0.

Shaq also had Eddie Jones traded BTW...

He got like 2 ASG out of Eddie Jones before he got traded. And Kobe was a wild card (a lot thought he had all star potential) who ended up showing his worth literally starting his 2nd year. Not saying it's the same but Shaq left a team he led to the finals that he didn't think was going anywhere and said that he wanted to join a team that he knew would get him the contending team he wanted.

jmartin80
08-14-2015, 09:00 PM
Use a time machine and never jump ship for easy championships. Stay loyal and win with his home town team. Not leave then return after they get 3 first overall picks in 4 years.

Dude has tried to avoid true competition so much, I don't know if he could even be considered the GOAT.

Don't get me wrong, he is great... but no as the GOAT. Don't think it is possible.

Vincent33
08-14-2015, 09:53 PM
Bill Russell has been there done that already. I think we're talking more like a 12-peat.

Dammit, that is true. I was just trying to make a joke referencing the Swerski's Super Fans skit when Jordan hosted SNL and we're talking about what it would take LBJ to supplant Jordan as GOAT

bucketss
08-14-2015, 10:18 PM
Use a time machine and never jump ship for easy championships. Stay loyal and win with his home town team. Not leave then return after they get 3 first overall picks in 4 years.

Dude has tried to avoid true competition so much, I don't know if he could even be considered the GOAT.

Don't get me wrong, he is great... but no as the GOAT. Don't think it is possible.

are you saying his 2013 championship was Easy ? , nothing more competitive than going 7 games vs time duncan and the spurs.

jmartin80
08-14-2015, 10:50 PM
are you saying his 2013 championship was Easy ? , nothing more competitive than going 7 games vs time duncan and the spurs.

Trip to the finals was super easy. Against the Spurs? One team in the strongest division. Try playing in the West and going through that playoffs bracket. Weird he never signed with a team on the West. heh

Jumping around to the easiest route possible will always be on his record. That's what he does. I still don't think he would have ever "come home" without 3 first overall picks going to Cleveland (which is still BS). Just happened to have enough young talent and money to build him his super talent team. Those that love Lebron always like to try to deny his "Super Team" jumping, but that is all he has done. Would take a lot to undue that, if that is even possible. The true GOAT would not do this.

Jamiecballer
08-14-2015, 11:01 PM
continue to play at this level for 5-7 more years. extremely unlikely to happen though IMO. his body will break down eventually.

Scoots
08-14-2015, 11:38 PM
Sir Donald Bradman if you know what sports he represents.

Test match cricket. I have a good friend who is Pakistani so I got to hear about Cricket greats and he got to hear about Baseball greats :)

I can't say I understand the appeal of the game but you probably have to start young.

Phantom Dreamer
08-14-2015, 11:55 PM
When MJ was playing their was never this huge consensus he was the "greatest ever" it was narrative that got started the further away from the game he got, perpetuated by ESPN/ the media and finally made into mythology by a lot of people that never even seen him play.By 1993, prior to his first retirement, he was pretty much considered the GOAT.

desertlakeshow
08-15-2015, 12:11 AM
I have watched every single one of Magic's game, he is the sole reason I watch basketball today.

Very underrated player, even reading these rankings.

desertlakeshow
08-15-2015, 12:14 AM
You are not alone, Magic was the Goat for me as well,

MJ he always played teams with there greatest days behind him.

He never conquered Bird in his prime. The GOAT would have done that.

Magic did that 3 times.

naps
08-15-2015, 12:45 AM
Oh if you can't beat Bird in his prime, you can't be the GOAT. Jesus....So no one will ever have a chance to be the GOAT in thousands or millions of years because Bird already retired and you can never beat him to be the GOAT. #gtfo

naps
08-15-2015, 12:48 AM
Test match cricket. I have a good friend who is Pakistani so I got to hear about Cricket greats and he got to hear about Baseball greats :)

I can't say I understand the appeal of the game but you probably have to start young.

Yeah he played so long ago but his records are so much superior than the other greats of the game throughout the history, it's nearly impossible for anyone to surpass him, ever.

FlashBolt
08-15-2015, 02:17 AM
Being realistic and not just naming out tasks that will probably not happen, his ship of being the GOAT has passed. If you would have told me that he three-peated with Miami, went come to Cleveland and won a ring vs the GSW with Irving/Love out, I think you can certainly make a case as it is for him to be the GOAT. I really agree with Hawkeyes tier system because with the various positions in the game/era, it would be difficult to put one player above another when they were equally as good at their own right. LeBron would be tier 1 in my book. I don't see how you can put Wilt there but then claim LeBron has to win this and that just to be below Wilt. It's safe to say he's a top ten and assuming he can win one or two more rings, top five will definitely be a lock for him.

FlashBolt
08-15-2015, 02:19 AM
Tired of these people saying LeBron avoided competition... Get a grip. Jumping teams only became a bad thing when it was LeBron doing it. When everyone else did it, it's never about jumping teams.

Scoots
08-15-2015, 12:49 PM
Yeah he played so long ago but his records are so much superior than the other greats of the game throughout the history, it's nearly impossible for anyone to surpass him, ever.

Which is essentially the argument for Jerry Rice in american football. When he retired he had something like 47 standing records. The number is smaller now, but not a lot smaller, and the chances of some single player having them all is all but impossible.

Kyben36
08-15-2015, 01:13 PM
he will never be the greatest, he will allways be known as a tittle chaser. who left the #1 cavs team to join Wade and bosh in MIA, then left an Old Wade for a Younger core Love and Iriving.

ewing
08-15-2015, 01:25 PM
maybe if he played more mins then Magic

phantasyyy
08-15-2015, 03:03 PM
Tired of these people saying LeBron avoided competition... Get a grip. Jumping teams only became a bad thing when it was LeBron doing it. When everyone else did it, it's never about jumping teams.

it became a bad thing because he was the undisputed best player joining a top 2-4 player in wade at the time and a franchise player in bosh because he was unable to win a chip with Cleveland - also he quit during that last postseason vs the celtics

TheNumber37
08-15-2015, 03:52 PM
He'd have to win 5 straight in Sweeps or average a triple double for 3years.

Sorry guys, Jordan set THE standard

Bostonjorge
08-15-2015, 04:16 PM
He can't have players calling him "not a number 1 option".

IKnowHoops
08-16-2015, 12:12 AM
I think if he wins 3 more championships and ends up being top 3 in scoring top 5 in assists he would have a case. Prob won't happen

I think Lebron is going to end up being the all-time scoring leader. I also think he may be the most productive 40 year old in NBA history. I also think he will play more NBA games than any player in history. His feel his ridiculous athletic ability will translate to longevity just as much as it translated to dominance. Longevity is just easier to measure and so for me, I see him playing well into his 40's just because of his freakishness lasting so long.

slashsnake
08-16-2015, 12:33 AM
For me, yeah... 5+ rings and a bunch of all time records. Outside shot at it...

tredigs
08-16-2015, 01:09 AM
I think Lebron is going to end up being the all-time scoring leader. I also think he may be the most productive 40 year old in NBA history. I also think he will play more NBA games than any player in history. His feel his ridiculous athletic ability will translate to longevity just as much as it translated to dominance. Longevity is just easier to measure and so for me, I see him playing well into his 40's just because of his freakishness lasting so long.

Playing well into his 40's? So you think he has close to 15 years ahead of him and has a 25-27 year career? Hahah c'mon dude. He took a multi-week mid-season vacation last year in order to decompress from all the physical and mental stress he was under. He's not going to be in the league a decade from now.

IKnowHoops
08-16-2015, 01:36 AM
Playing well into his 40's? So you think he has close to 15 years ahead of him and has a 25-27 year career? Hahah c'mon dude. He took a multi-week mid-season vacation last year in order to decompress from all the physical and mental stress he was under. He's not going to be in the league a decade from now.

Thats your argument?

tredigs
08-16-2015, 02:01 AM
Thats your argument?

That 15 years before your expected retirement for him, he is already showcasing very real exhaustion? Yes, I'd say it's a pretty clear indicator that the massive amount of minutes played is beginning to add up. Thinking he'll have a 25+ year career is both ridiculous/laughable and completely expected.

slashsnake
08-16-2015, 03:48 AM
Just for fun... lets say 8 more seasons and 70 games a season.. I think that's a decent conservative number there. 70 games is just one more than last year, he'd be retiring at 38...

So lets say he gets 20 points, 5 assists, 5.5 boards a game the next 8 years (first four above that, last 4 below that, but there's your average).

That puts him 3rd all time scoring, 2nd all time including post-season, only behind Kareem.

Say 5 assists per game in that time... he hits 9100 assists, puts him there between Big O and Isiah, 7th all time.

Prob be top 5 in assists (100 a season over 8 more years, his average is 130 a year so far).

Rebounds a bit inside the top 50 all time (5-6 a game for 8 more years at 70 games a year).

Could be around 2000 3's which would be top 5 all time, but I think that one will continue to grow and meh...

And say 10 playoff games a year for those 8 years (averages 15 currently) will put him as the most playoff games ever played. If he only averages 25-7-5 (instead of 29-9-7 currently) we are talking all time leading scorer in the playoffs, 6th in boards, 3rd in assists.


3 golds would make him the most decorated mens Olympic basketball player ever.


Figure 12-15 all NBA 1st teams (3-6 more), 19 all star appearances (he isn't not getting voted there), which would be tops for both (If this is Kobe's last year). 1 more MVP ties him with the most all time as well.

I think then the only other thing we'd be looking at is the hardest part. 3+ more rings.. The rest would be pretty clear. 5+ champs, 9+ finals and the most decorated player in NBA and Olympic history with very good D, and a great all around game and one of the top scorers ever? Yeah, that would be goat territory.

The rings are the reason I think he won't. I think he ends with 4, and people will always compare to Jordan's 6 (right or wrong), which if he doesn't hit, he needs to be that much better everywhere else.

tredigs
08-16-2015, 04:46 AM
^I don't think being the All-Time #6 leader in rebounds, etc means much of anything in an All-Time debate for NBA players. It's about how dominant you were in your prime more than anything else.

ManningToTyree
08-16-2015, 12:47 PM
Nothing.

Hawkize31
08-16-2015, 01:36 PM
Lebron's likely going to finish as the top scorer in NBA history, top 5-10 in assists and maybe crack the top 20 in rebounds. He's going to have a case.

Its hard to compare him and Jordan because they're styles are so different. Jordan wanted to come right at you himself, and he wanted everyone to know it was going to happen, and he'd do it anyway, even if you triple teamed him. Lebron will read your defense and make the right play to exploit it, even if it means he doesn't take the shot. He'll drive, collapse the defense, and dish it to a wide open scrub who does 1 thing well - shoot 3s. You knew that, and you still left him open because Lebron made it happen. Jordan wanted to win by being better than everyone, Lebron wants to win by maximizing value out of every player on the floor. How exactly do you compare those different styles?

I will say PSD is blinded by rings. Noone in history has ever won them alone, but when it comes to Jordan, its like some unbeatable argument to people. Jordan > Lebron because 6-0. But it doesn't apply elsewhere. Bill Russell won 11 times, isn't he better than Jordan? Barkley won 0, but I think he was pretty great. Kobe won 5, but I think Lebron is pretty clearly the better player than Kobe. Rings are a fun talking point, but they cannot be the centerpiece of your argument or its a flawed argument. There were posters last year arguing that getting to the finals and losing is a black mark on Lebrons legacy - completely asinine.

FlySeason
08-16-2015, 09:20 PM
I'd say he'll have a fair shot if he plays 5 more years at MVP-contention level and wins rings in 2 of them.

AntiG
08-16-2015, 09:36 PM
He'd basically have to win 5 more rings and be the Finals MVP in all of them.

The reason why MJ is considered the greatest by most is because he was the most dominant player in arguably the most talented period of the NBA's history and became so dominant that he was unstoppable for two periods of 3 years each and was the most dominant player in each and every final series (unlike Kobe, who spent half of his finals series as the 2nd best player - Shaq for the early days, Gasol's dominance of KG in the Celtics series). The level of talent during the 80s and 90s were unbelievable and the only reason anyone won anything when he reached his peak was because he retired due to personal issues. That Rockets squad with Hakeem and Drexler might have been able to pull it off but we'll never know.

LAKERS4LIFE!!
08-16-2015, 10:05 PM
I think Lebron is going to end up being the all-time scoring leader. I also think he may be the most productive 40 year old in NBA history. I also think he will play more NBA games than any player in history. His feel his ridiculous athletic ability will translate to longevity just as much as it translated to dominance. Longevity is just easier to measure and so for me, I see him playing well into his 40's just because of his freakishness lasting so long.

Lebron's lack of jumpshot won't allow this. Last season, he was already being scared to shoot.

urban85disciple
08-16-2015, 10:19 PM
Here's something I haven't seen ANYONE mention yet; I don't even think people even consider it:

1. Lebron has currently played 1 less game than Jordan had his entire career. So anything he does from this point forward is FAR less than what MJ did in the same timeframe.

2. Lebron needs to play at least 7 more seasons, averaging 70 games per while averaging his career average of 27 points to pass KAJ. Highly unlikely. That's a 37 year old Lebron being the primary scorer on whatever team he plays for. More likely, he averages 24-25 PPG over the remainder of his career.

3. In 15 NBA seasons, and 179 games, MJ won 5 rings; Lebron has 2. So any rings he wins after his 15th season (5 rings max.) would only be due to longevity.

4. Lebron has never entered an ASW event, let alone won any.

5. For as great of a defender Lebron is; (a) he has never won DPOY, (b) has 3 less All-Defense selections, and (c) averages less steals plus blocks per game (both average 0.8 BPG for career).

6. Had MJ begun playing in the NBA immediately after HS, he could've played 3 more seasons. Averaging 30 PPG for 82 games each season (which he mostly did) he would've added 7,380 more points to his total. Passing KAJ on the all-time scoring list by 1,200 points. In less time.

You want to talk hypotheticals? Lebron can do absolutely NOTHING to pass MJ as the GOAT in my mind. For starters, though, he'd need to win 2 dunk contests, enter a 3PT contest, carry this current Cavs roster to a 70+ win season, win the next 3 Finals against a stacked West team, and star in an animated film (that doesn't suck) where aliens challenge him to a basketball game for his freedom.

The last part is impossible because any movie with him in it will most likely suck. That said, I completely believe he will fall as the 2nd or 3rd greatest player ever.

tredigs
08-16-2015, 11:00 PM
^No dude, MJ wasn't going to come into the NBA out of high school and just average 30 PPG as an 18 or 19 year old. He learned a ton from Dean Smith at North Carolina, and frankly probably never would have reached his level of greatness without that experience. Also, nobody cares about a dunk contest or entering a 3pt contest when discussing the top 5 of All Time. That **** is irrelevant.

Scoots
08-17-2015, 12:01 AM
^No dude, MJ wasn't going to come into the NBA out of high school and just average 30 PPG as an 18 or 19 year old. He learned a ton from Dean Smith at North Carolina, and frankly probably never would have reached his level of greatness without that experience. Also, nobody cares about a dunk contest or entering a 3pt contest when discussing the top 5 of All Time. That **** is irrelevant.

But Space Jam IS relevant? Besides, MJ wanted an animated bunny girl ... ewww. Plus LeBron hasn't sported the Hitler mustache.

FlashBolt
08-17-2015, 12:21 AM
Here's something I haven't seen ANYONE mention yet; I don't even think people even consider it:

1. Lebron has currently played 1 less game than Jordan had his entire career. So anything he does from this point forward is FAR less than what MJ did in the same timeframe.

2. Lebron needs to play at least 7 more seasons, averaging 70 games per while averaging his career average of 27 points to pass KAJ. Highly unlikely. That's a 37 year old Lebron being the primary scorer on whatever team he plays for. More likely, he averages 24-25 PPG over the remainder of his career.

3. In 15 NBA seasons, and 179 games, MJ won 5 rings; Lebron has 2. So any rings he wins after his 15th season (5 rings max.) would only be due to longevity.

4. Lebron has never entered an ASW event, let alone won any.

5. For as great of a defender Lebron is; (a) he has never won DPOY, (b) has 3 less All-Defense selections, and (c) averages less steals plus blocks per game (both average 0.8 BPG for career).

6. Had MJ begun playing in the NBA immediately after HS, he could've played 3 more seasons. Averaging 30 PPG for 82 games each season (which he mostly did) he would've added 7,380 more points to his total. Passing KAJ on the all-time scoring list by 1,200 points. In less time.

You want to talk hypotheticals? Lebron can do absolutely NOTHING to pass MJ as the GOAT in my mind. For starters, though, he'd need to win 2 dunk contests, enter a 3PT contest, carry this current Cavs roster to a 70+ win season, win the next 3 Finals against a stacked West team, and star in an animated film (that doesn't suck) where aliens challenge him to a basketball game for his freedom.

The last part is impossible because any movie with him in it will most likely suck. That said, I completely believe he will fall as the 2nd or 3rd greatest player ever.

No one has considered many of your argument(s) because they are a no-show.

1) This is about what he HAS to do. Not what he has done thus far.
2) Who's to say he won't play till 40? That's certainly something he can do. If we bring it up to 40, he has to score 18 PPG for ten seasons. That's more than do-able. His next four seasons will hit 25 PPG at least, meaning he'll only have to score 14 PPG for the remaining six seasons to crack KAJ's scoring title. Again, assuming he doesn't run off to become a business-man full-time, that is plausible.
3) Refer to argument 1. Longevity is a good thing here.
4) Silly argument. Who cares? Nate Robinson entered it many times. No one cares about him anymore. Thing about ASW events is it's only your 15 minutes of fame.
5) No one here thinks he has to do any of that. It is something to consider but will people really say "he hasn't won DPOY, not the best"? Doubt it.
6) Lol, who cares man. If this is your argument, you shouldn't make a list next time.

About five of your arguments are weak and filled with jibberish. 70+ win season is absolutely a joke. He led a team to the 2nd longest winning streak ever. Jordan didn't do that. Stop nitpicking silly achievements that holds little water. Enter a three point shooting contest? Really? Does he have to play baseball as well?

IKnowHoops
08-17-2015, 01:44 AM
That 15 years before your expected retirement for him, he is already showcasing very real exhaustion? Yes, I'd say it's a pretty clear indicator that the massive amount of minutes played is beginning to add up. Thinking he'll have a 25+ year career is both ridiculous/laughable and completely expected.

I still don't think a 2 week rest means anything. He went on to average 37/14/9 in the finals and blasted the rest of the season. I think your reading into the rest waaaaaaaay to much. One 2 week rest is still probably less rest than Kareem needed up to that point.

tredigs
08-17-2015, 01:56 AM
I still don't think a 2 week rest means anything. He went on to average 37/14/9 in the finals and blasted the rest of the season. I think your reading into the rest waaaaaaaay to much. One 2 week rest is still probably less rest than Kareem needed up to that point.

He had a very easy ECF and the longest break ever between a conference Final and NBA Final. You couldn't ask for a better situation entering the Final in order for him to put up big box-score stats (given the injuries to Love/Kyrie as well obviously). Beyond that, he was playing one side of the ball for the most part and had no legs on his shot (hence the worst shooting of his career for 2+ months). He's showing his minutes both physically and mentally, and who can blame him? He's played a ton.

Anyway, we can revisit this in 15 years when Lebron is enjoying his first summer vacation following his HOF induction ceremony, or playing his 27th NBA season... lol.

tredigs
08-17-2015, 02:04 AM
In reality I see Lebron retiring around 36 years old. I imagine he'll sign a 5 year max this summer, then depending on how he's doing physically at the end of that run (we'll assume no serious/chronic injuries), maybe sign for 1 more season with whatever team gets him the best chance to win at that time and/or has his friends on it, then call it a day. You never know, though. There's more incentive for players to stick around longer these days due to the consistently growing contracts. Might be hard for him to turn down 75 million for 2 years or whatever the cap warrants by 2021.

numba1CHANGsta
08-17-2015, 02:16 AM
Go back in time and win all of his Finals appearances

DanG
08-17-2015, 09:36 AM
He shouldn't have gone to Miami. Bosh should have went to Cleveland and paired up with LeBron. They still would have gone to the finals every year. If LeBron would have won 2 in CLE he would be much higher on everyones lists.

Right now LeBron has no realistic shot at GOAT. But I would go like this:
I have LeBron at #9 right now.
1 more FMVP LeBron moves up to #7
2 more FMVPs LeBron moves up to top 5
3 more FMVPs LeBron moves up to top 3
4 more FMVPs LeBron passes Kareem for #2
5 more FMVPs LeBron passes MJ in rings and becomes the GOAT.

PhillyFaninLA
08-17-2015, 10:07 AM
We cannot truly judge things like this during someones career...I think you need to get at least a decade away from the last game to really know what history says.

nycsports2
08-17-2015, 10:24 AM
Win 4+ more chips? 5? Be the all-time scoring leader while being top 25 in boards and top 5 in assists?

Or he can't possibly at this point?

What would it take for you to make him the consensus number 1?

I'd say this would be about right.

Scoots
08-17-2015, 10:52 AM
Another LeBron failure compared to MJ ... dude, embrace the receding hair line and shave it. Or if you really are the greatest player in the world, show how bad *** you are and go with the George Jefferson.

Stinkyoutsider
08-17-2015, 11:34 AM
MJ will always be considered the GOAT similar to Ali in boxing.

Could Lebron have a better career than MJ? Possibly. Depends on how the next 3 years of his career goes. I think he's on the right track though.

urban85disciple
08-17-2015, 02:18 PM
No one has considered many of your argument(s) because they are a no-show.

1) This is about what he HAS to do. Not what he has done thus far.
2) Who's to say he won't play till 40? That's certainly something he can do. If we bring it up to 40, he has to score 18 PPG for ten seasons. That's more than do-able. His next four seasons will hit 25 PPG at least, meaning he'll only have to score 14 PPG for the remaining six seasons to crack KAJ's scoring title. Again, assuming he doesn't run off to become a business-man full-time, that is plausible.
3) Refer to argument 1. Longevity is a good thing here.
4) Silly argument. Who cares? Nate Robinson entered it many times. No one cares about him anymore. Thing about ASW events is it's only your 15 minutes of fame.
5) No one here thinks he has to do any of that. It is something to consider but will people really say "he hasn't won DPOY, not the best"? Doubt it.
6) Lol, who cares man. If this is your argument, you shouldn't make a list next time.

About five of your arguments are weak and filled with jibberish. 70+ win season is absolutely a joke. He led a team to the 2nd longest winning streak ever. Jordan didn't do that. Stop nitpicking silly achievements that holds little water. Enter a three point shooting contest? Really? Does he have to play baseball as well?

I love how my list is meaningless while using stats as a basis but yours is relevant on assumptions.

What reason do you have to assume LBJ can play til 40? He's already shown an effect of all the minutes he's played on his body. Ten more seasons is asking for a lot.

How can Lebron ever be considered GOAT for accomplishing cumulatively less than MJ? There's also nothing you suggested that would make him better than Jordan.

You say I'm nitpicking but would Jordan be Jordan had he not accomplished the small things? If he never participated in a dunk contest, you'd never have the Jordan photo below which, IMO, is a staple in his legacy.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQIjIomxcDFwXYn6stuKrzSXJppYcHek lvakz5zz3UT5s_B1txwUg

It may be nitpicking to you, but a little goes a long way. Besides, like I said, we're talking hypothetically. Hypothetically, Lebron could retire after this season.

ewing
08-17-2015, 02:47 PM
Ship sailed

D-Leethal
08-17-2015, 03:58 PM
I love how my list is meaningless while using stats as a basis but yours is relevant on assumptions.

What reason do you have to assume LBJ can play til 40? He's already shown an effect of all the minutes he's played on his body. Ten more seasons is asking for a lot.

How can Lebron ever be considered GOAT for accomplishing cumulatively less than MJ? There's also nothing you suggested that would make him better than Jordan.

You say I'm nitpicking but would Jordan be Jordan had he not accomplished the small things? If he never participated in a dunk contest, you'd never have the Jordan photo below which, IMO, is a staple in his legacy.

https://encrypted-tbn2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQIjIomxcDFwXYn6stuKrzSXJppYcHek lvakz5zz3UT5s_B1txwUg

It may be nitpicking to you, but a little goes a long way. Besides, like I said, we're talking hypothetically. Hypothetically, Lebron could retire after this season.

I don't think its truly relevant in a conversation of whose better than who, but it was certainly a major legacy moment for MJ and further highlighted his competitive spirit, and does the opposite for LeBron. MJ embraced every challenge, LeBron did his best job at avoiding them and when faced with legitimate challenges (i.e. West Coast teams in the Finals) his resume is not very impressive. Once MJ hit his stride he was bulletproof. LeBron has been shot too many times to pass him at this point.

lol, please
08-17-2015, 04:05 PM
Win 4+ more chips? 5? Be the all-time scoring leader while being top 25 in boards and top 5 in assists?

Or he can't possibly at this point?

What would it take for you to make him the consensus number 1?

Nothing.

He, or someone with an agenda would have to travel back in time and de-seminate Jordans mother, or derail his childhood.

Just like Brady can do nothing to overshadow Montana, and PSD haters can do nothing to discredit Bonds' claim to undisputed GOAT of the MLB.

andy2518
08-17-2015, 04:41 PM
start improving.

unfortunately his legacy is judged by things like finals records and rings, or whether or not he wins with a super team or not. and not his actual game on the floor.

30-10-10 on a losing team will never be as good as 25-8-8 on a winning team. Winning is valued above all else. Individual stats and accolades can do a lot, but will only get you so far.

andy2518
08-17-2015, 04:44 PM
I still don't think a 2 week rest means anything. He went on to average 37/14/9 in the finals and blasted the rest of the season. I think your reading into the rest waaaaaaaay to much. One 2 week rest is still probably less rest than Kareem needed up to that point.

He also shot the worst 3 point percentage for a player attempting over 100 shots in the playoffs in league history not to mention the worst TS% since AI.

Not dogging on him or anything, just keeping things in perspective. You make is sound like he had a Jordan or Shaq type of finals when in reality he wasn't even close.

bucketss
08-17-2015, 05:13 PM
30-10-10 on a losing team will never be as good as 25-8-8 on a winning team. Winning is valued above all else. Individual stats and accolades can do a lot, but will only get you so far.

i would first have to watch why the 30 10 10 guy is unable to win.

mngopher35
08-17-2015, 05:19 PM
30-10-10 on a losing team will never be as good as 25-8-8 on a winning team. Winning is valued above all else. Individual stats and accolades can do a lot, but will only get you so far.

But since 2006 Lebron has been putting up his stats on winning teams, just not always championship teams. If you think that your statement holds true for those situations I would disagree. Many considered Jordan better than Thomas even when he was losing to those teams (Jordan great stats while Thomas just good). I think many people are capable of separating individuals from their team. Championships play a part but generally speaking I think individual success is more important than team success when ranking players.


He also shot the worst 3 point percentage for a player attempting over 100 shots in the playoffs in league history not to mention the worst TS% since AI.

Not dogging on him or anything, just keeping things in perspective. You make is sound like he had a Jordan or Shaq type of finals when in reality he wasn't even close.

Sure his shot was off but he was also leading one of the worst finals casts which neither of them had to do. When you are playing the best defense in the league with one of the worst offensive casts out there your efficiency is going to be hampered. He still was as efficient offensively as Curry while carrying that type of load and leading the series in pts/reb/ast. Individually he was right up there with the best, his support however was not.

Scoots
08-17-2015, 05:57 PM
He also shot the worst 3 point percentage for a player attempting over 100 shots in the playoffs in league history not to mention the worst TS% since AI.

Not dogging on him or anything, just keeping things in perspective. You make is sound like he had a Jordan or Shaq type of finals when in reality he wasn't even close.

I don't think the number of players who have taken 100 3s in a single playoffs is a very long list so not sure what that means.

andy2518
08-17-2015, 06:06 PM
But since 2006 Lebron has been putting up his stats on winning teams, just not always championship teams. If you think that your statement holds true for those situations I would disagree. Many considered Jordan better than Thomas even when he was losing to those teams (Jordan great stats while Thomas just good). I think many people are capable of separating individuals from their team. Championships play a part but generally speaking I think individual success is more important than team success when ranking players.

Not to sound like a dick or anything, but in sports, there is no prize for second place; unless it's the olympics of course. If you're not winning championships at some point, you're basically losing. In terms of being compared to the best of the best that is. Not a bad point with Jordan and Isaiah though. Most did consider Jordan better despite Isaiah winning it in 89 and 90. My only response to that would be Jordan had essentially zero weaknesses in his game when compared to Isaiah. He literally beat him in all categories. Jordan was also a dominant alpha personality as well as a great crunch time player from the get go. These are two of lebron's major weaknesses as a player and a major reason why many thought he could not fit that Jordan type roll as the main leader. No one had a any questions about Jordan the way they did about Lebron in terms of the intangible qualities the greats of the game had who won multiple times at the highest level. Clearly, Isaiah was not on Jordan's level, nor is he on Lebron's level. That much is clear. They are in two different tiers. Lebron and Jordan are both on the highest tiers and must be therefore set their own standards and cannot be compared with lesser tiered players like Isaiah. It's like using that old Horry adage about rings. It just makes no sense to use analogies comparing players that are separated by one or even two tiers. Isaiah should be compared with guys like Iverson and Nash, not Jordan or Lebron.


Sure his shot was off but he was also leading one of the worst finals casts which neither of them had to do. When you are playing the best defense in the league with one of the worst offensive casts out there your efficiency is going to be hampered. He still was as efficient offensively as Curry while carrying that type of load and leading the series in pts/reb/ast. Individually he was right up there with the best, his support however was not.

Did you just say that Lebron was as efficient as Curry in the finals this year in offense?

andy2518
08-17-2015, 06:08 PM
I don't think the number of players who have taken 100 3s in a single playoffs is a very long list so not sure what that means.

The list of players in that tier Lebron belongs to is also very small as well. This is a compliment to him and yet even further proof of his greatness. What's your point?

mngopher35
08-17-2015, 06:33 PM
Not to sound like a dick or anything, but in sports, there is no prize for second place; unless it's the olympics of course. If you're not winning championships at some point, you're basically losing. In terms of being compared to the best of the best that is. Not a bad point with Jordan and Isaiah though. Most did consider Jordan better despite Isaiah winning it in 89 and 90. My only response to that would be Jordan had essentially zero weaknesses in his game when compared to Isaiah. He literally beat him in all categories. Jordan was also a dominant alpha personality as well as a great crunch time player from the get go. These are two of lebron's major weaknesses as a player and a major reason why many thought he could not fit that Jordan type roll as the main leader. No one had a any questions about Jordan the way they did about Lebron in terms of the intangible qualities the greats of the game had who won multiple times at the highest level. Clearly, Isaiah was not on Jordan's level, nor is he on Lebron's level. That much is clear. They are in two different tiers. Lebron and Jordan are both on the highest tiers and must be therefore set their own standards and cannot be compared with lesser tiered players like Isaiah. It's like using that old Horry adage about rings. It just makes no sense to use analogies comparing players that are separated by one or even two tiers. Isaiah should be compared with guys like Iverson and Nash, not Jordan or Lebron.

Well first of all Lebron has lead teams to championships so it is not like he has never been there but you know that. While I agree about the second place thing I am just saying individual success still trumps team success overall. When it is a very close example then I do agree with you that the team success starts to have some pull. The reason that you can seperate Isiah being worse than Jordan is exactly my point, the individual play is most important. You are looking at how they played as the main piece, then breaking it down to team success if everything else is equal. I agree with that approach but it isn't very often that you can't separate players before that point imo. Also sometimes team success is solely because of a player or had more to do with teammates so context always matters too.

I am not saying Lebron is there with Jordan or anything I just think that the post you quoted was right, many people use some poor criteria to judge and that individual talent is much more important than team success. Many times when people use the horry statement it is to point out how absurd only using rings as an argument is (and ignoring individual play which is always the key). Jordan is better than Lebron because he was better at basketball over his career than Lebron has been, not just because his teams were better.



Did you just say that Lebron was as efficient as Curry in the finals this year in offense?

Yes, they both had an ortg of 104 (which was higher than Clevelands team average and lower than Golden State's average). Curry was a better shooter but had a ton of turnovers while Lebron was protecting the ball very well controlling the pace.

Knick bag
08-17-2015, 06:54 PM
Be 6-0 in the finals with the same team he was drafted by

warrior63
08-17-2015, 06:59 PM
At this point in his career I feel that there isn't anything that he can do. He is what he is at this point and his body is only going to start deteriorating on him from here on out. Even if he's able to play another 6 years at this level he has been. There's no way on gods green earth that he could supplant MJ23 as the best ever (if he ever even had a chance at it anyways).

andy2518
08-17-2015, 07:23 PM
Well first of all Lebron has lead teams to championships so it is not like he has never been there but you know that. While I agree about the second place thing I am just saying individual success still trumps team success overall. When it is a very close example then I do agree with you that the team success starts to have some pull. The reason that you can seperate Isiah being worse than Jordan is exactly my point, the individual play is most important. You are looking at how they played as the main piece, then breaking it down to team success if everything else is equal. I agree with that approach but it isn't very often that you can't separate players before that point imo. Also sometimes team success is solely because of a player or had more to do with teammates so context always matters too.

I am not saying Lebron is there with Jordan or anything I just think that the post you quoted was right, many people use some poor criteria to judge and that individual talent is much more important than team success. Many times when people use the horry statement it is to point out how absurd only using rings as an argument is (and ignoring individual play which is always the key). Jordan is better than Lebron because he was better at basketball over his career than Lebron has been, not just because his teams were better.

Yes, Lebron got the job done for sure. He is a top tier talent for sure. I'm sure you know that already as well. Yes, Jordan is the better player, not only because of rings. No knock on Lebron, as Jordan is better than everyone else as well in terms of nearly everything and the gap is pretty wide and it's not even debatable honestly. That said, Lebron has no chance of catching Jordan in any scenario I can see. I'll go even further to say that even back in his rookie year when all the hype was at it's pinnacle, I knew that Lebron would never catch Jordan. That was based on things I saw in his game both tangible and intangible.

One can physically see Jordan's fiery competitive nature on the court and his will to win. That and his moves were much more skillful and graceful looking. Jordan's impact is something I have never seen before and doubt I will ever see again. Kobe kinda came close, but his decision making, consistent effort on the defensive end, and shot selection stood in his way. With Lebron, it's just that his overall skill set doesn't match up. The athleticism is there and perhaps even more so than Jordan, but is no where near the competitor nor does he have the repertoire of moves.

Jordan never broke under pressure, nor did he need to have others on his team do the closing in big games for him. It was all him. A very hard standard to follow indeed. I honestly believe that Jordan won his rings with less of a team than Lebron had in both of his three-peats. I also believe that Jordan would have won all four years in Miami. For sure in 2011. I know that is hypothetical, but so is my opinion and I believe it to be so. That is why I don't base it on rings alone.



Yes, they both had an ortg of 104 (which was higher than Clevelands team average and lower than Golden State's average). Curry was a better shooter but had a ton of turnovers while Lebron was protecting the ball very well controlling the pace.

Well, I thought you were referring to shooting alone, so then you do have a point, depending on how much you truly value the ortg formula. Personally, I do like it in a lot of situations, but it is not always consistent with what is happening on the court.

For example, Boobie Gibson had an astronomically higher ortg than Lebron in a few of the games when Cleveland made it to the finals back in 2007. Now do I believe Gibson had the greater offensive impact or was more of a catalyst than Lebron in any way? Heck no. I don't even think he was close. I know one must factor in minutes played and usage for sure, but it's not always accurate. In the case of this years finals, Lebron did everything he could and I don't blame that loss on him what so ever. He didn't have his full team or even close. That would be ridiculous. Lebron did however take some very ill advised shots mainly due to the fact that his team had no other offensive weapons or cohesion what so ever. That and Lebron being able to create his own shot in iso is definitely not one of his strengths. But he did have to take some bad shots and as a result, his TS% was on Iverson like levels. That is a fact. With Love and Irving there, most likely his TS% would be up and his scoring down.

That is kinda why I scoffed at that guy who mentioned his main stat line of like 35, 13, and 8 like it was something on Jordan's level. Jordan had better lines that than with much higher TS%'s as well as far less usage ratings. When Jordan did have a high usage finals, not only did his team win, but his stats were better across the board as well. When you are 6'8 250 and one of the most gifted athletic freaks of nature there has ever been, I fully expect you to grab 13 boards per game when you play those kind of minutes and have that kind of a usage rating lol.

Again, I don't feel right about criticizing his performance this year in any way shape or form because he really was at a huge disadvantage and still managed to lead his team to two victories. I just also feel it's unfair to try and compare it to any of Jordan's based on the fact it was in a losing effort and his TS% was so low and his usage was so high. Let's not overrate it to that level now either. It was also a complete mockery that he got finals MVP votes, but that's a whole other discussion all together lol.

ODB13
08-17-2015, 08:01 PM
Win 4 more chips as the lead dog and he'd be in the convo.

ghettosean
08-17-2015, 08:09 PM
Well first of all Lebron has lead teams to championships so it is not like he has never been there but you know that. While I agree about the second place thing I am just saying individual success still trumps team success overall. When it is a very close example then I do agree with you that the team success starts to have some pull. The reason that you can seperate Isiah being worse than Jordan is exactly my point, the individual play is most important. You are looking at how they played as the main piece, then breaking it down to team success if everything else is equal. I agree with that approach but it isn't very often that you can't separate players before that point imo. Also sometimes team success is solely because of a player or had more to do with teammates so context always matters too.

I am not saying Lebron is there with Jordan or anything I just think that the post you quoted was right, many people use some poor criteria to judge and that individual talent is much more important than team success. Many times when people use the horry statement it is to point out how absurd only using rings as an argument is (and ignoring individual play which is always the key). Jordan is better than Lebron because he was better at basketball over his career than Lebron has been, not just because his teams were better.

Yes, Lebron got the job done for sure. He is a top tier talent for sure. I'm sure you know that already as well. Yes, Jordan is the better player, not only because of rings. No knock on Lebron, as Jordan is better than everyone else as well in terms of nearly everything and the gap is pretty wide and it's not even debatable honestly. That said, Lebron has no chance of catching Jordan in any scenario I can see. I'll go even further to say that even back in his rookie year when all the hype was at it's pinnacle, I knew that Lebron would never catch Jordan. That was based on things I saw in his game both tangible and intangible.

One can physically see Jordan's fiery competitive nature on the court and his will to win. That and his moves were much more skillful and graceful looking. Jordan's impact is something I have never seen before and doubt I will ever see again. Kobe kinda came close, but his decision making, consistent effort on the defensive end, and shot selection stood in his way. With Lebron, it's just that his overall skill set doesn't match up. The athleticism is there and perhaps even more so than Jordan, but is no where near the competitor nor does he have the repertoire of moves.

Jordan never broke under pressure, nor did he need to have others on his team do the closing in big games for him. It was all him. A very hard standard to follow indeed. I honestly believe that Jordan won his rings with less of a team than Lebron had in both of his three-peats. I also believe that Jordan would have won all four years in Miami. For sure in 2011. I know that is hypothetical, but so is my opinion and I believe it to be so. That is why I don't base it on rings alone.



Yes, they both had an ortg of 104 (which was higher than Clevelands team average and lower than Golden State's average). Curry was a better shooter but had a ton of turnovers while Lebron was protecting the ball very well controlling the pace.

Well, I thought you were referring to shooting alone, so then you do have a point, depending on how much you truly value the ortg formula. Personally, I do like it in a lot of situations, but it is not always consistent with what is happening on the court.

For example, Boobie Gibson had an astronomically higher ortg than Lebron in a few of the games when Cleveland made it to the finals back in 2007. Now do I believe Gibson had the greater offensive impact or was more of a catalyst than Lebron in any way? Heck no. I don't even think he was close. I know one must factor in minutes played and usage for sure, but it's not always accurate. In the case of this years finals, Lebron did everything he could and I don't blame that loss on him what so ever. He didn't have his full team or even close. That would be ridiculous. Lebron did however take some very ill advised shots mainly due to the fact that his team had no other offensive weapons or cohesion what so ever. That and Lebron being able to create his own shot in iso is definitely not one of his strengths. But he did have to take some bad shots and as a result, his TS% was on Iverson like levels. That is a fact. With Love and Irving there, most likely his TS% would be up and his scoring down.

That is kinda why I scoffed at that guy who mentioned his main stat line of like 35, 13, and 8 like it was something on Jordan's level. Jordan had better lines that than with much higher TS%'s as well as far less usage ratings. When Jordan did have a high usage finals, not only did his team win, but his stats were better across the board as well. When you are 6'8 250 and one of the most gifted athletic freaks of nature there has ever been, I fully expect you to grab 13 boards per game when you play those kind of minutes and have that kind of a usage rating lol.

Again, I don't feel right about criticizing his performance this year in any way shape or form because he really was at a huge disadvantage and still managed to lead his team to two victories. I just also feel it's unfair to try and compare it to any of Jordan's based on the fact it was in a losing effort and his TS% was so low and his usage was so high. Let's not overrate it to that level now either. It was also a complete mockery that he got finals MVP votes, but that's a whole other discussion all together lol.

This is one of the best and most insightful posts I've seen in a long time!

Great read and great post sir!

mngopher35
08-17-2015, 08:10 PM
Yes, Lebron got the job done for sure. He is a top tier talent for sure. I'm sure you know that already as well. Yes, Jordan is the better player, not only because of rings. No knock on Lebron, as Jordan is better than everyone else as well in terms of nearly everything and the gap is pretty wide and it's not even debatable honestly. That said, Lebron has no chance of catching Jordan in any scenario I can see. I'll go even further to say that even back in his rookie year when all the hype was at it's pinnacle, I knew that Lebron would never catch Jordan. That was based on things I saw in his game both tangible and intangible.

One can physically see Jordan's fiery competitive nature on the court and his will to win. That and his moves were much more skillful and graceful looking. Jordan's impact is something I have never seen before and doubt I will ever see again. Kobe kinda came close, but his decision making, consistent effort on the defensive end, and shot selection stood in his way. With Lebron, it's just that his overall skill set doesn't match up. The athleticism is there and perhaps even more so than Jordan, but is no where near the competitor nor does he have the repertoire of moves.

Jordan never broke under pressure, nor did he need to have others on his team do the closing in big games for him. It was all him. A very hard standard to follow indeed. I honestly believe that Jordan won his rings with less of a team than Lebron had in both of his three-peats. I also believe that Jordan would have won all four years in Miami. For sure in 2011. I know that is hypothetical, but so is my opinion and I believe it to be so. That is why I don't base it on rings alone.

I disagree with some of the reasoning about fiery, being graceful, and being competitive but overall I do agree about how good Jordan was. I don't think Kobe came that close to his impact either and Lebron+others have been closer. I too think Jordan wins in 2011, probably not 2014 or 2015 though (he would have the best shot though). My point from the start on this was simply that individual ability is more important than team success. There is no reason to use 6-0 finals record or whatever above as the main reason since that is so little context and ignores the actual reasons MJ was better. When you said winning is valued above all else I felt like responding since that is just wrong to me (the individuals impact is and should be valued most).





Well, I thought you were referring to shooting alone, so then you do have a point, depending on how much you truly value the ortg formula. Personally, I do like it in a lot of situations, but it is not always consistent with what is happening on the court.

For example, Boobie Gibson had an astronomically higher ortg than Lebron in a few of the games when Cleveland made it to the finals back in 2007. Now do I believe Gibson had the greater offensive impact or was more of a catalyst than Lebron in any way? Heck no. I don't even think he was close. I know one must factor in minutes played and usage for sure, but it's not always accurate. In the case of this years finals, Lebron did everything he could and I don't blame that loss on him what so ever. He didn't have his full team or even close. That would be ridiculous. Lebron did however take some very ill advised shots mainly due to the fact that his team had no other offensive weapons or cohesion what so ever. That and Lebron being able to create his own shot in iso is definitely not one of his strengths. But he did have to take some bad shots and as a result, his TS% was on Iverson like levels. That is a fact. With Love and Irving there, most likely his TS% would be up and his scoring down.

Comparing Curry and Lebron who are both focal points of their offense is nothing like Gibson. I don't think you quite get ORTG, it isn't to judge which players are having a greater offensive impact like you say with Gibson. It is simply a measure of how efficient they are being offensively. Gibson isn't creating like those other two or with the same pressure, he mostly was waiting for Lebron to set him up. Same reason why Mozgov had a solid ortg in the finals. Lebron had a huge impact with his points and assists, ORTG just helps us see how efficiently he was doing it.

So of course you need to look at usage/teamates and other things when factoring in ortg, I don't see why this situation wouldn't work. Lebron not only had the higher usage but also the worse supporting cast so he was at a disadvantage comparatively yet still reached the same mark as Curry. His scoring was at a low level similar to Iverson but that is because of the situation he was in. You said it yourself he wasn't quite right shooting yet did it a ton because he was the only effective creator they had. He had a higher efficiency than his team average while carrying a load we basically haven't seen before, that is all time great level. There is a reason this is the first time in a long while I thought an opposing player had a chance at FMVP (and even got like 4 votes).


That is kinda why I scoffed at that guy who mentioned his main stat line of like 35, 13, and 8 like it was something on Jordan's level. Jordan had better lines that than with much higher TS%'s as well as far less usage ratings. When Jordan did have a high usage finals, not only did his team win, but his stats were better across the board as well. When you are 6'8 250 and one of the most gifted athletic freaks of nature there has ever been, I fully expect you to grab 13 boards per game when you play those kind of minutes and have that kind of a usage rating lol.

Again, I don't feel right about criticizing his performance this year in any way shape or form because he really was at a huge disadvantage and still managed to lead his team to two victories. I just also feel it's unfair to try and compare it to any of Jordan's based on the fact it was in a losing effort and his TS% was so low and his usage was so high. Let's not overrate it to that level now either. It was also a complete mockery that he got finals MVP votes, but that's a whole other discussion all together lol.

You are ignoring the team aspect. Being efficient is easier when you have a great supporting cast and don't have to carry the load (lower usage). It is fine if you don't want to compare it to any of Jordans and he certainly has played better than Lebron but Jordan has never lead a finals in pts/ast/reb has he? He has never played with such a poor supporting cast in the finals has he?

They are different and everyone has a right to their own opinion. I think it was a very impressive finals personally. When you made a big deal about his 3pt shooting and ts% I thought it was just as important to point out that his overall efficiency was actually solid and the circumstances behind why it might be lower than normal which those others haven't had to deal with (lack of support). That stat line is pretty remarkable even factoring in efficiency.

Scoots
08-17-2015, 11:55 PM
The list of players in that tier Lebron belongs to is also very small as well. This is a compliment to him and yet even further proof of his greatness. What's your point?

Well, you said "He also shot the worst 3 point percentage for a player attempting over 100 shots" ... if that list is 4 players long then even LeBron being at the bottom of that list doesn't really mean much as it's not statistically significant.

What's my point? I said "not sure what this means" ... so my point is that I'm not sure what your stating that "He also shot the worst 3 point percentage for a player attempting over 100 shots" was intended to convey. So let me ask you ... what's your point? Is it that LeBron isn't a 3 point shooter? That he shoots a high volume? That he's indiscriminate in his shooting? The despite shooting a low percentage he had to keep shooting because his team demanded it? Is it that LeBron is inefficient?