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BallIsAll
08-08-2015, 12:18 AM
Made a list of the best player by position, check it out...


http://www.realballinsiders.com/?p=974

PG: Russell Westbrook
SG: James Harden
SF: Lebron James
PF: Anthony Davis
C: Demarcus Cousins

Allphakenny1
08-08-2015, 12:25 AM
Westbrook should be 3rd behind Paul in 2nd and Curry in 1st.

We seriously need to start up the polls that we do every off-season so people can vote on this. Someone should take the reins from Mile High Champ (or whatever his name is) because he seems to be too busy to complete it in one off-season, but it was a great thing he started.

tredigs
08-08-2015, 12:34 AM
A lot of errors in the writing and general NBA misnomers abound. Couldn't get past page 2. You have a ton of work ahead of you if you're planning on doing this seriously. Sorry, that's the truth.

As far as this thread goes, I'll take:

PG: Curry (CP3 and Westbrook have their case as well of course)
SG: Harden
SF: Lebron (KD is right with him when healthy, but we need to see his return from the latest setback)
PF: AD
C: M. Gasol

BallIsAll
08-08-2015, 12:36 AM
A lot of errors in the writing and general NBA misnomers abound. Couldn't get past page 2. You have a ton of work ahead of you if you're planning on doing this seriously. Sorry, that's the truth.

As far as this thread goes, I'll take:

PG: Curry (CP3 and Westbrook have their case as well of course)
SG: Harden
SF: Lebron (KD is right with him when healthy, but we need to see his return from the latest setback)
PF: AD
C: M. Gasol

Ill read through it my daughter hasn't let me write.

FlashBolt
08-08-2015, 12:41 AM
PG: CP3
SG: Harden
SF: LeBron (KD when healthy IMO)
PF: Anthony Davis
C: Marc Gasol

Chronz
08-08-2015, 10:03 AM
Too easy
Curry harden bron Blake Duncan

archdevil84
08-08-2015, 10:35 AM
CP3
wade
bron
AD
M.gasol

Minimal
08-08-2015, 11:28 AM
Westbrook
Harden
James
Davis
Cousins

ManRam
08-08-2015, 11:45 AM
Too easy
Curry harden bron Brow Boogie

Chronz
08-08-2015, 11:52 AM
Too easy
Curry harden bron Brow Boogie

Brow is like Shawn Marion in how he lets the game come to him. Blake can dictate where the game goes because of his floor game. That has value. Whether it exceeds AD's superior production is up in the air but its an argument worth having. Especially given AD's horrid defense and lack of ball domination.

Boogies in the mix at the 5 but Duncan is the guy you want in a playoff game, that matters more.

MonroeFAN
08-08-2015, 09:31 PM
^lulz?

Munkeysuit
08-08-2015, 09:43 PM
PG - Chris Paul
SG - James Harden
SF - Lebron James
PF - Anthony Davis
C - M Gasol

FlashBolt
08-08-2015, 10:33 PM
CP3
wade
bron
AD
M.gasol

What?

5ass
08-08-2015, 10:42 PM
Brow is like Shawn Marion in how he lets the game come to him. Blake can dictate where the game goes because of his floor game. That has value. Whether it exceeds AD's superior production is up in the air but its an argument worth having. Especially given AD's horrid defense and lack of ball domination.

Boogies in the mix at the 5 but Duncan is the guy you want in a playoff game, that matters more.

Theres also value in players that let the game come to them and don't force it. Really it all depends on your team. Davis' an incredible player to pair up with another star.

Jeffy25
08-09-2015, 04:10 AM
Too easy
Curry harden bron Blake Duncan

No AD?

tredigs
08-09-2015, 04:15 AM
Ill read through it my daughter hasn't let me write.

We'll pretend this is a joke?

ManRam
08-09-2015, 11:21 AM
Especially given AD's horrid defense and lack of ball domination.

Very confused by this. I was all aboard the "we're overrating Davis' defense" train during and after the 2013-14 season, but did you pay attention to him last year? He lived up to the hype...he was what everyone assumed he'd be defensively. He took the step forward and became a tremendous defender.

And he had a 27.8 usage last year. Compared to Blake's 28.4. More FGA per 36 minutes too. I'm really not grasping this logic here. Sure, Blake does some things offensively that AD doesn't quite do you, and is bit more of a play-maker, but AD was plenty aggressive.


I'm 100% fine with anyone not picking Boogie. Lack of team success matters...even if he is individually the best and most productive center in the game.

BallIsAll
08-09-2015, 12:13 PM
We'll pretend this is a joke?



You try writing with a 2 year old on your case lol. It's not an excuse tho I should have proofread it better.

Vee-Rex
08-09-2015, 12:20 PM
Curry/Paul
Harden
Bron/KD
Davis
Boogie

I love Marc Gasol... he's much more well rounded. Much better defender and higher BBIQ than Boogie. I just think his impact (on the offensive and rebounding) isn't enough to eclipse DeMarcus Cousins as best center.

If Boogie wasn't in the midst of that trainwreck of a team, who knows what kind of player he could grow into.

FlashBolt
08-09-2015, 02:36 PM
Curry/Paul
Harden
Bron/KD
Davis
Boogie

I love Marc Gasol... he's much more well rounded. Much better defender and higher BBIQ than Boogie. I just think his impact (on the offensive and rebounding) isn't enough to eclipse DeMarcus Cousins as best center.

If Boogie wasn't in the midst of that trainwreck of a team, who knows what kind of player he could grow into.

He's a team player, he's not a locker room liability, he's a better defender, he is a better passer, has a higher BBIQ, and he doesn't need to score to be an asset. Don't see how that isn't enough.

CousinsEvansDUO
08-10-2015, 02:40 AM
I disagree with flashbolt entirely. Completely. Absolutely. In all infinity. Demarcus"30/15/5" any game Cousins is better than Marc "7rebound 10point a game" Gasol. Cousins is a better passer, cousins isn't a locker room liability, he has no worse bbiq than gasol, he's an equally good defender, he's a much better scorer, in every single way, he's a much better rebounder, he's more clutch, he's more dominant, a real #1 option on offense. Your argument is INVALID. Cousins is a top 5 player in the NBA.

DanG
08-10-2015, 05:31 AM
Cousins is the best center. Not by a big margin though. He isn't LeBron, KD, AD, but still a top 10 player

valade16
08-10-2015, 09:30 AM
Blake Griffin over Anthony Davis?

I don't think so. Anthony Davis is definitely better than Blake Griffin...

Tony_Starks
08-10-2015, 09:43 AM
Curry
Harden
KD
Blake
Cousins

Hawkeye15
08-10-2015, 10:03 AM
Curry
Harden
LeBron
AD
Marc Gasol

FlashBolt
08-10-2015, 04:24 PM
I disagree with flashbolt entirely. Completely. Absolutely. In all infinity. Demarcus"30/15/5" any game Cousins is better than Marc "7rebound 10point a game" Gasol. Cousins is a better passer, cousins isn't a locker room liability, he has no worse bbiq than gasol, he's an equally good defender, he's a much better scorer, in every single way, he's a much better rebounder, he's more clutch, he's more dominant, a real #1 option on offense. Your argument is INVALID. Cousins is a top 5 player in the NBA.

How is he a top 5 player? He is not better than LeBron/KD/Anthony Davis/Curry/Harden... So he is top 5 center for sure but you can't be a top 5 player and reach the playoffs a whooping zero times. Cousins is a better passer than Marc Gasol? Equally as good on defense as Marc? Isn't a locker room liability? Now I know you're just trolling. I confirmed it by reading your Tyreke Evans is the best player on the Pelicans.

JAZZNC
08-10-2015, 04:33 PM
Curry, Harden, LeBron, Griffin, Marc Gasol.

Silent
08-10-2015, 05:22 PM
PG: CP3
SG: Harden
SF: LeBron (KD when healthy IMO)
PF: Anthony Davis
C: Marc Gasol

i agree

Clippersfan86
08-10-2015, 05:55 PM
Blake Griffin over Anthony Davis?

I don't think so. Anthony Davis is definitely better than Blake Griffin...

"Definitely" is a big exaggeration. People see the gawdy numbers and don't analyze WHY. Griffin has shown that when he's the only star (CP3 went down) he could put up numbers that match AD (28 ppg, 10+ rpg, 6 apg, 1.5 spg when CP3 went down for 20 games two years ago when he made late season MVP push). Griffin averaged 25+, 12+, 6+ and had 4 triple doubles in this last playoff run and was arguably the most dominant player for much of the playoffs. It's easier to put up the huge stats when you don't play with a ball dominant superstar next to you. If you put a guy like CP3 next to Davis, his stats plummet, just like Love's did next to Lebron/Kyrie.

I'm not saying Griffin is necessarily better, merely saying it's foolish to suggest it's Davis no contest.

Clippersfan86
08-10-2015, 05:57 PM
PS my point isn't that Davis is putting up empty stats, but rather that Griffin's are held back a bit due to playing with a more stacked team (just like CP3's are by Griffin).

EDUTEXANS
08-10-2015, 06:33 PM
"Definitely" is a big exaggeration. People see the gawdy numbers and don't analyze WHY. Griffin has shown that when he's the only star (CP3 went down) he could put up numbers that match AD (28 ppg, 10+ rpg, 6 apg, 1.5 spg when CP3 went down for 20 games two years ago when he made late season MVP push). Griffin averaged 25+, 12+, 6+ and had 4 triple doubles in this last playoff run and was arguably the most dominant player for much of the playoffs. It's easier to put up the huge stats when you don't play with a ball dominant superstar next to you. If you put a guy like CP3 next to Davis, his stats plummet, just like Love's did next to Lebron/Kyrie.

I'm not saying Griffin is necessarily better, merely saying it's foolish to suggest it's Davis no contest.

Or he could get a lot more of easy buckets around the rim playing with the best passer in the league. This discussion can always go both ways. The biggest difference between the two is Griffin's playmaking ability, which only shows when he plays without CP3. But Davis is also the more efficient scorer, the better rebounder and he is better defensively.

I'd go with Davis, I think, but I'm really fine with Griffin, as well. Griffin also has the advantage of being more experienced and I was really impressed with his performance in the Playoffs. He dominated. But then again, Davis did his damage against the Warriors, as well.

Mine would be:
Curry - Paul - Westbrook
Harden - Thompson - Wade
LeBron - Durant - Anthony
Davis - Griffin - Aldridge or Bosh
Cousins - Gasol - Howard

FlashBolt
08-10-2015, 06:57 PM
PS my point isn't that Davis is putting up empty stats, but rather that Griffin's are held back a bit due to playing with a more stacked team (just like CP3's are by Griffin).

Oh stop it. Davis is better than Blake. You can easily argue that Davis is not benefiting from CP3's ability to play the pick-and-roll, easier buckets, less attention, and someone who could mentor him as well.

Chronz
08-10-2015, 07:36 PM
Very confused by this. I was all aboard the "we're overrating Davis' defense" train during and after the 2013-14 season, but did you pay attention to him last year? He lived up to the hype...he was what everyone assumed he'd be defensively. He took the step forward and became a tremendous defender.

And he had a 27.8 usage last year. Compared to Blake's 28.4. More FGA per 36 minutes too. I'm really not grasping this logic here. Sure, Blake does some things offensively that AD doesn't quite do you, and is bit more of a play-maker, but AD was plenty aggressive.


I'm 100% fine with anyone not picking Boogie. Lack of team success matters...even if he is individually the best and most productive center in the game.

Maybe Im just old school but I expect an elite defender to anchor a great defense, at least if he did in fact realize his potential on that end, which I disagree with because his potential is basically Bill Russell defensively. Hes got the length to protect the rim and the mobility to snuff out PnR and switch onto perimeter guys. He only lacks the strength and IQ to be the best defender ever.
Maybe I overrate the impact 1 player can have on a defense but I dont think the teams talent is the reason for their lack of defensive dominance. The only other factor could be the coach's scheme. Which is a complaint I've heard from several outlets, so maybe it takes the right coach to bring out the beast but either way, he hasn't played like an elite defender IMO. Hes still relying on his physical gifts alil too much, hes rarely in a position to contests shots at the rim.


Offensively, hes the ultimate outlet player but he kind of sucks as a go-to option/initial creator. AD being aggressive isn't my complaint, its that he doesn't control the flow of the game. You know how Bron slowed the Warriors attack by bringing the pace to a grinding halt, AD could never do that. I made the Shawn Marion comparison because despite his high usage%, he rarely handles the ball. Blake is a very ball dominant player and he dissects defenses beyond his own individual production with his passing. There are pros and cons to both, ideally you want a player who can adapt to his team, which I feel Blake has finally accomplished. Hes still ball dominant but hes become less of a ball-stopper and is making decisive reads at a high level. If he was even a good defender I would be confident in choosing him.

I think its telling that the Pels didn't fall out of the playoff picture once AD went down and I feel thats because some of his production is fluff. Also offensive rebounding is a talent that fades fairly quickly so I think his peak production wont align with his actual prime in terms of influencing his team. Depends on how he develops.


DMC is a fine choice tho. I would prolly slide AD to the 5 if you want the best talents.

Chronz
08-10-2015, 07:38 PM
Blake Griffin over Anthony Davis?

I don't think so. Anthony Davis is definitely better than Blake Griffin...

Hes definitely more productive and more talented, but I dont think hes seasoned enough to be "Definitely" better. Still learning how to win and he goes without demanding the ball alil too much for my liking.

Chronz
08-10-2015, 07:43 PM
Theres also value in players that let the game come to them and don't force it. Really it all depends on your team. Davis' an incredible player to pair up with another star.

Thats a good point, its entirely possible that if we switch the 2, the Clippers would be significantly better simply because theres less overlap between CP3 and he, considering how little AD actually touches the ball. He does his damage instinctively whereas Blake likes to survey. I guess I just value shot creation more from my stars but I can see why that would be less important for bigs.

Its scary to think what he could do if CP3 were alongside him, hes like Amare without Nash right now.

nastynice
08-10-2015, 07:58 PM
I think SG and SF is pretty much a given with Harden and Lebron.

I think Davis is the the best PF, but there's def some good players like LMA and Griffin to be considered too. But I think we all kinda feel it in the air, Davis looks like he's gonna be one of those special once a decade type of players, so I def gotta go with him.

PG is deep as hell, and there's 3 bonafide in Curry, CP3, and Westbrook. IMO it should be between Curry and CP3, Westbrook seems to hurt his team a lot too.

I have no opinion on best C

so
PG: Curry/CP3
SG: Harden
SF: Lebron
PF: Davis
C:

Hawkeye15
08-10-2015, 07:59 PM
Maybe Im just old school but I expect an elite defender to anchor a great defense, at least if he did in fact realize his potential on that end, which I disagree with because his potential is basically Bill Russell defensively. Hes got the length to protect the rim and the mobility to snuff out PnR and switch onto perimeter guys. He only lacks the strength and IQ to be the best defender ever.
Maybe I overrate the impact 1 player can have on a defense but I dont think the teams talent is the reason for their lack of defensive dominance. The only other factor could be the coach's scheme. Which is a complaint I've heard from several outlets, so maybe it takes the right coach to bring out the beast but either way, he hasn't played like an elite defender IMO. Hes still relying on his physical gifts alil too much, hes rarely in a position to contests shots at the rim.


Offensively, hes the ultimate outlet player but he kind of sucks as a go-to option/initial creator. AD being aggressive isn't my complaint, its that he doesn't control the flow of the game. You know how Bron slowed the Warriors attack by bringing the pace to a grinding halt, AD could never do that. I made the Shawn Marion comparison because despite his high usage%, he rarely handles the ball. Blake is a very ball dominant player and he dissects defenses beyond his own individual production with his passing. There are pros and cons to both, ideally you want a player who can adapt to his team, which I feel Blake has finally accomplished. Hes still ball dominant but hes become less of a ball-stopper and is making decisive reads at a high level. If he was even a good defender I would be confident in choosing him.

I think its telling that the Pels didn't fall out of the playoff picture once AD went down and I feel thats because some of his production is fluff. Also offensive rebounding is a talent that fades fairly quickly so I think his peak production wont align with his actual prime in terms of influencing his team. Depends on how he develops.


DMC is a fine choice tho. I would prolly slide AD to the 5 if you want the best talents.

with today's rules? Idk. It still takes team defense either walling off the paint or making dribble drives turn with the dribble.

I agree with his inability so far to dictate offensive tempo, and force the other team to address him by handling the ball, but we can't deny the dude never wastes a motion and is off the charts efficient.

Chronz
08-10-2015, 08:11 PM
with today's rules? Idk. It still takes team defense either walling off the paint or making dribble drives turn with the dribble.

I agree with his inability so far to dictate offensive tempo, and force the other team to address him by handling the ball, but we can't deny the dude never wastes a motion and is off the charts efficient.

I just see the GIANT difference Gasol made when he got back from injury, the Grizz basically went from awful to elite with his addition basically.

alexander_37
08-10-2015, 08:32 PM
Curry
Harden
Lebron
Davis
Howard

Clippersfan86
08-10-2015, 10:02 PM
I think SG and SF is pretty much a given with Harden and Lebron.

I think Davis is the the best PF, but there's def some good players like LMA and Griffin to be considered too. But I think we all kinda feel it in the air, Davis looks like he's gonna be one of those special once a decade type of players, so I def gotta go with him.

PG is deep as hell, and there's 3 bonafide in Curry, CP3, and Westbrook. IMO it should be between Curry and CP3, Westbrook seems to hurt his team a lot too.

I have no opinion on best C

so
PG: Curry/CP3
SG: Harden
SF: Lebron
PF: Davis
C:

I know you gave props, but still managed to make Griffin underrated. He himself is one of those extremely rare players as well. His career has started with 5 straight all star selections and 5 straight All NBA team selections. He's a CAREER 20/10/3 player who hasn't yet hit his prime.

Clippersfan86
08-10-2015, 10:02 PM
Oh stop it. Davis is better than Blake. You can easily argue that Davis is not benefiting from CP3's ability to play the pick-and-roll, easier buckets, less attention, and someone who could mentor him as well.

I've proven many times that Blake doesn't benefit from CP3 statistically. Both CP3 and Griffin are better WITHOUT each other individually due to the fact that each one is ball dominant and a primary playmaker. So their skills overlap. Similar to Wade and Lebron in Miami.

Clippersfan86
08-10-2015, 10:26 PM
Or he could get a lot more of easy buckets around the rim playing with the best passer in the league. This discussion can always go both ways. The biggest difference between the two is Griffin's playmaking ability, which only shows when he plays without CP3. But Davis is also the more efficient scorer, the better rebounder and he is better defensively.

I'd go with Davis, I think, but I'm really fine with Griffin, as well. Griffin also has the advantage of being more experienced and I was really impressed with his performance in the Playoffs. He dominated. But then again, Davis did his damage against the Warriors, as well.

Mine would be:
Curry - Paul - Westbrook
Harden - Thompson - Wade
LeBron - Durant - Anthony
Davis - Griffin - Aldridge or Bosh
Cousins - Gasol - Howard

1. Davis isn't the better rebounder. Griffin's playstyle the last two years has him 18 feet out and he's admitted to conserving energy for the playoffs. He was the top rebounder in the playoffs this year. They are both at about 10 career rpg and 16 percent career rebound percentage. If I need a rebound to save the game and have to bet on one of these two, I'm taking Griffin who is more tenacious and physical.

2. As I said to Flashbolt Griffin statistically doesn't get a boost from CP3.

Scoots
08-10-2015, 10:28 PM
If I'm building a team:

PG: Curry
SG: Thompson
SF: Durant
PF: Davis
C: Gasol

If it's the best by talent:
PG: Westbrook
SG: Harden
SF: LeBron
PF: Davis
C: Cousins

tredigs
08-10-2015, 11:15 PM
If I'm building a team:

PG: Curry
SG: Thompson
SF: Durant
PF: Davis
C: Gasol

If it's the best by talent:
PG: Westbrook
SG: Harden
SF: LeBron
PF: Davis
C: Cousins

You think Westbrook has more talent than Curry and CP3? Athleticism yes, but dribbling/passing/shooting talent, he isn't there.

FlashBolt
08-11-2015, 02:46 AM
You think Westbrook has more talent than Curry and CP3? Athleticism yes, but dribbling/passing/shooting talent, he isn't there.

Hard to argue. They are all talented in their own right. I personally find Curry to be the most talented but CP3 is the most well-rounded. Westbrook is just a loose cannon who runs on adderall. A case could have been made for Derrick Rose years ago, tbh. Sad to see him fall that bad. Would be amazing to see Rose vs Westbrook at their peak.

nastynice
08-11-2015, 03:37 AM
I know you gave props, but still managed to make Griffin underrated. He himself is one of those extremely rare players as well. His career has started with 5 straight all star selections and 5 straight All NBA team selections. He's a CAREER 20/10/3 player who hasn't yet hit his prime.

hmm, I def wouldn't call Griffin a once a decade player. That's not to say he isn't a great player, but what I mean by once a decade type player is players like kobe, lebron, duncan, kd is kinda teetering on it. I think a lot of us, or at least me, kind of feel that AD is going to turn into this type of player, this "potential" we see in him def sways a lot of our votes his way.

Two yrs ago I seriously felt Griffin was starting to establish himself as third best player in the league, behind two players who were clearly above him in lebron and kd. I think AD is going to be IN that top tier during his career, not close but clearly below it.

Clippersfan86
08-11-2015, 09:25 AM
hmm, I def wouldn't call Griffin a once a decade player. That's not to say he isn't a great player, but what I mean by once a decade type player is players like kobe, lebron, duncan, kd is kinda teetering on it. I think a lot of us, or at least me, kind of feel that AD is going to turn into this type of player, this "potential" we see in him def sways a lot of our votes his way.

Two yrs ago I seriously felt Griffin was starting to establish himself as third best player in the league, behind two players who were clearly above him in lebron and kd. I think AD is going to be IN that top tier during his career, not close but clearly below it.

Griffin has the upside to be the best player the league for a given year or two, even with Davis, Lebron and KD in it if he plays his cards right with his development. Like I just said... he was the most dominant player in the playoffs along with Curry. My point is while Davis is special, he's not the only one. Curry, Griffin, KD are those types of players too. Davis deserves the hype but he isn't on a clearly higher tier than these guys.

valade16
08-11-2015, 09:45 AM
Hes definitely more productive and more talented, but I dont think hes seasoned enough to be "Definitely" better. Still learning how to win and he goes without demanding the ball alil too much for my liking.

Yes, he's still learning how to win but he did lead NO to the playoffs in the West (and specifically the Southwest which was so tough every team made the playoffs).

Also, while not demanding the ball offensively he's still scoring 24 PPG. Do you think the Clippers if they had to play without CP3 the entire season would have a markedly better record than the Pelicans?

Hawkeye15
08-11-2015, 09:59 AM
I just see the GIANT difference Gasol made when he got back from injury, the Grizz basically went from awful to elite with his addition basically.

sure but that is the other end of the equation. Without a rim protector, guys like Allen and Conley aren't nearly as effective defensively. Since you can't touch perimeter players, it is impossible to keep them out of the paint at some point, unless you have a rim protector. You kind of need a combo of both to shore up an elite defense.

Gentry was hired for a reason btw. If the Pelicans fly up the defensive rankings, it won't be just because Davis finally turned into that elite defender so many expect out of him. Asik didn't just forget how to defend. You need a good system in place to begin with.

chi-townlove1
08-11-2015, 10:50 AM
PG - Chris Paul
SG - James Harden
SF - Lebron James
PF - Anthony Davis
C - M Gasol

Anything other than this is wrong, at least for the time being.

Scoots
08-11-2015, 10:59 AM
You think Westbrook has more talent than Curry and CP3? Athleticism yes, but dribbling/passing/shooting talent, he isn't there.

I think Curry is a better player, but I also think everything Curry does Westbrook can do but not the other way around.

valade16
08-11-2015, 11:44 AM
I think Curry is a better player, but I also think everything Curry does Westbrook can do but not the other way around.

I mean can do as in physically can duplicate it perhaps but can do as in can imitate it to a similar efficiency? Not even close.

Westbrook shoots 30% from 3. He could get off all the shots Curry does but he would come nowhere near Curry's ability to actually make those shots.

So no, I don't think Westy can do what Curry does.

Scoots
08-11-2015, 01:11 PM
I mean can do as in physically can duplicate it perhaps but can do as in can imitate it to a similar efficiency? Not even close.

Westbrook shoots 30% from 3. He could get off all the shots Curry does but he would come nowhere near Curry's ability to actually make those shots.

So no, I don't think Westy can do what Curry does.

I did say Curry was a better player.

tredigs
08-11-2015, 01:44 PM
I think Curry is a better player, but I also think everything Curry does Westbrook can do but not the other way around.

I'm not with you, I completely disagree. They're different players and I'm much more comfortable with the idea that Westbrook is the better player than saying he can do everything Curry can do. I actually have no clue how an informed fan could write that. Case in point of his dribbling/shooting skill superiority: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NudiJUlxb10

Or maybe some more applicable examples on Westbrook/OKC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZurA01IYulE

Minimal
08-11-2015, 02:53 PM
I'm not with you, I completely disagree. They're different players and I'm much more comfortable with the idea that Westbrook is the better player than saying he can do everything Curry can do. I actually have no clue how an informed fan could write that. Case in point of his dribbling/shooting skill superiority: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NudiJUlxb10

Or maybe some more applicable examples on Westbrook/OKC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZurA01IYulE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2epW2KMyPPo
See what I did there?

Chronz
08-11-2015, 03:06 PM
Yes, he's still learning how to win but he did lead NO to the playoffs in the West (and specifically the Southwest which was so tough every team made the playoffs).

Also, while not demanding the ball offensively he's still scoring 24 PPG. Do you think the Clippers if they had to play without CP3 the entire season would have a markedly better record than the Pelicans?
Not sure. But i do know that without cp3. And without Blake our team wouldn't tread water the way the pels did without ad for that 14 game stretch.

tredigs
08-11-2015, 03:14 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2epW2KMyPPo
See what I did there?

Yes, I saw you post a video of Westbrook making a breakaway dunk. Did you see anywhere in my post where I said Westbrook is not capable of doing things that other players - including Curry - can't? No. I fully acknowledge his athletic superiority and the fact that he has advantages in different respects due to it. Did you not understand the point of my post, or do you disagree with it?

FlashBolt
08-11-2015, 03:26 PM
How do you compare Westbrook and Curry? One is a shooter and the other is a slasher. One relies on his shooting touch while the other has a gas tank built inside him. But one thing is for sure: Combine the talents of both these players and you will have the ultimate PG. I'd take Curry any day over Westbrook if I had a championship caliber team, but if you need someone to carry the load, Westbrook does it second to LeBron (maybe Harden after what we saw last season).

FlashBolt
08-11-2015, 03:28 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2epW2KMyPPo
See what I did there?

His post had more to do with showing that Westbrook can't do what Curry does because someone claimed Westbrook could. He never said Curry could do what Westbrook did.

da ThRONe
08-11-2015, 03:55 PM
Blake Griffin over Anthony Davis?

I don't think so. Anthony Davis is definitely better than Blake Griffin...

I strongly disagree. I'm taking Griffin over Davis and it's a healthy gap in my mind. Davis is the leagues most overrated player ATM.

da ThRONe
08-11-2015, 03:57 PM
Not sure. But i do know that without cp3. And without Blake our team wouldn't tread water the way the pels did without ad for that 14 game stretch.

Agree. Our win lose record was almost identical with and without Davis.

da ThRONe
08-11-2015, 03:58 PM
I'd go
1 Curry
2 Harden
3 James
4 Griffin
5 Cousins

Minimal
08-11-2015, 08:09 PM
His post had more to do with showing that Westbrook can't do what Curry does because someone claimed Westbrook could. He never said Curry could do what Westbrook did.
Who provides a clip of 1 specific play of a player to prove he is good at it?
The only thing Curry is better than Westbrook is shooting. Thats all. They are both good with handles, its just Westbrook is less flashy, because he uses power not agility, the same way LeBron does.

nastynice
08-11-2015, 10:38 PM
Griffin has the upside to be the best player the league for a given year or two, even with Davis, Lebron and KD in it if he plays his cards right with his development. Like I just said... he was the most dominant player in the playoffs along with Curry. My point is while Davis is special, he's not the only one. Curry, Griffin, KD are those types of players too. Davis deserves the hype but he isn't on a clearly higher tier than these guys.

KD is teetering on it, injuries making things hard to really say he's there or not. To me Griffin and Curry have A LOT to prove before being put in that category.

Let me give you an example, KD basically missed the whole year with injury, yet he is still legitimately being talked about as a top 2 player in the league. Lebron could miss next yr with injury, and will still be legitimately talked about as the best player in the league. If Curry or Griffin miss next yr with injury, their overall ranking will significantly drop in the eyes of most fans, and rightfully so. They simply aren't on that level YET.

The potential is there, DEFINITELY, but the potential seems much stronger (not higher) with AD, and so that's why so many people are loving everything this guy does.

IMO Curry rightfully won mvp this year, but no way does that make him the best player in the league. Those are two very different things.

nastynice
08-11-2015, 10:42 PM
Who provides a clip of 1 specific play of a player to prove he is good at it?
The only thing Curry is better than Westbrook is shooting. Thats all. They are both good with handles, its just Westbrook is less flashy, because he uses power not agility, the same way LeBron does.

Curry's definitely better at getting his guys touches. Coaching probably plays a part in that too, but even when we have someone on fire and the entire opposing d is keying in on them, Curry still gets them decent to open looks. He's way more crafty with the ball than Westbrook which opens up LOTS of passing lanes, speaking of which makes me think Curry also has better vision. I also think Curry is a lot better at moving around off the ball, I think he showed that pretty well these last playoffs, getting regularly pulled and grabbed yet still finding his spots. I also think Westbrook wastes a lot more possessions than Curry.

I love westbrook's style, he's a complete freak of nature on the court, but to say the only thing Curry is better at is shooting, seems like a pretty sloppy statement to me.

mrblisterdundee
08-12-2015, 12:55 AM
PG: Stephen Curry
SG: James Harden
SF: LeBron James
PF: Anthony Davis
C: DeMarcus Cousins

Jesus!

ISIAH_THOMAS
08-12-2015, 12:57 AM
Mine would be

Curry
Harden
Bron
Davis
COusins

valade16
08-12-2015, 09:49 AM
Not sure. But i do know that without cp3. And without Blake our team wouldn't tread water the way the pels did without ad for that 14 game stretch.

Well AD wasn't injured for 14 games straight. He was out for 7 games of a 9 game stretch.

If you look at just the games AD didn't play last season the Pelicans went 6-8

They were definitely a worse team with AD out as opposed to in. When AD was out they didn't win a single game by double digits but had 3 losses of 10+.

Not only that their +/- for the regular season was +0.8 and when AD was out the number was -3.3.

They not only scored less (99.4 to 96.6), they allowed more (98.6 to 100).

Granted it's a small sample size but it is still convincingly shows that AD added value to his team, both on offense and on defense and in the win column.

da ThRONe
08-12-2015, 02:39 PM
Well AD wasn't injured for 14 games straight. He was out for 7 games of a 9 game stretch.

If you look at just the games AD didn't play last season the Pelicans went 6-8

They were definitely a worse team with AD out as opposed to in. When AD was out they didn't win a single game by double digits but had 3 losses of 10+.

Not only that their +/- for the regular season was +0.8 and when AD was out the number was -3.3.

They not only scored less (99.4 to 96.6), they allowed more (98.6 to 100).

Granted it's a small sample size but it is still convincingly shows that AD added value to his team, both on offense and on defense and in the win column.

Certainly the point of the win lose comment wasn't to say Davis has no value to the team. However there's something to be said when a player is considered the only perriennal all star level player on the team and the team record is almost the same with the player as without. When you look at the Cavs win lost record without James or OKC without Westbrook(minus Durant) and there's the difference you expect to see.

ewing
08-13-2015, 04:21 PM
I just see the GIANT difference Gasol made when he got back from injury, the Grizz basically went from awful to elite with his addition basically.


Gasol is also a play maker on offensive that dictates tempo with his back to the basket play. If AD had more of Marc's offensive qualities his team would be better defensively. I find it amazing how many basketball fans looks at offensive and defensive like its the NFL and they really don't effect each other all the time

Scoots
08-13-2015, 04:58 PM
Gasol is also a play maker on offensive that dictates tempo with his back to the basket play. If AD had more of Marc's offensive qualities his team would be better defensively. I find it amazing how many basketball fans looks at offensive and defensive like its the NFL and they really don't effect each other all the time

In addition, Bogut who is EXTREMELY limited offensively with both scoring FGs and FTs had a significantly positive effect on the Warriors offense because he, like Gasol, was able to facilitate the offense from the top of the key through his passing, and you can't reasonably argue that the Warriors had a slow tempo. Gasol is still often undervalued by fans.

As for the offense/defense connection so many fans miss ... the finals is a perfect example. LeBron choking the life out of the ball on offense completely disrupted the Warriors offense for long stretches of the finals. LeBron was probably the best defensive player in the finals because the give-the-ball-to-LeBron-and-spread-out offense helped limit the Warriors to 10 points below their season average

ewing
08-13-2015, 06:36 PM
In addition, Bogut who is EXTREMELY limited offensively with both scoring FGs and FTs had a significantly positive effect on the Warriors offense because he, like Gasol, was able to facilitate the offense from the top of the key through his passing, and you can't reasonably argue that the Warriors had a slow tempo. Gasol is still often undervalued by fans.

As for the offense/defense connection so many fans miss ... the finals is a perfect example. LeBron choking the life out of the ball on offense completely disrupted the Warriors offense for long stretches of the finals. LeBron was probably the best defensive player in the finals because the give-the-ball-to-LeBron-and-spread-out offense helped limit the Warriors to 10 points below their season average


I agree with everything in this post and i think the next step for Davis is utilize the post more so his team always has the option of controlling tempo and utilizing him as a safety valve on offensive.

Scoots
08-13-2015, 06:57 PM
I agree with everything in this post and i think the next step for Davis is utilize the post more so his team always has the option of controlling tempo and utilizing him as a safety value on offensive.

Did you see the Pels playoff series this year? Whether by design or result Davis was invisible for stretches despite being dominant when given the changes. The Warriors had no way to really even slow him down (who does) anywhere on the floor but it seemed his teammates wanted theirs too or something so despite his dominance he'd stop getting (or demanding) the ball.

My modified TEAM:
PG: Curry
SG: Thompson/Butler/Harden I can't decide
SF: Durant
PF: LeBron
C: Davis

With Gentry as coach to PUUUUUUSH the pace :)

Try to keep up :)

Tony_Starks
08-13-2015, 08:34 PM
I need to see what Davis does this season with every team officially giving him the superstar treatment all year before I anoint him and hop on that bandwagon.

Blake has already showed me that he continues to improve every aspect of his game and he's still getting better. I can easily pencil him as best PF.

As far as Cousins is concerned if you don't have him as the best center in the game I just have to assume you really dislike him as a person because his game is head and shoulders better than any other center in the league.

Clippersfan86
08-13-2015, 09:22 PM
Cousins and Curry overtook the guys ahead of them for one reason. They both made HUGE defensive leaps this season to not only get to average, but above average level. They already were the best on offense the previous year.

da ThRONe
08-13-2015, 10:52 PM
I need to see what Davis does this season with every team officially giving him the superstar treatment all year before I anoint him and hop on that bandwagon.

Blake has already showed me that he continues to improve every aspect of his game and he's still getting better. I can easily pencil him as best PF.

As far as Cousins is concerned if you don't have him as the best center in the game I just have to assume you really dislike him as a person because his game is head and shoulders better than any other center in the league.

This Griffin is better or just as good as Davis at every aspect of basketball other than blocking shots and rim protecting. How people rank Davis ahead of Griffin is dumbfounding to me.

nastynice
08-14-2015, 02:44 AM
This Griffin is better or just as good as Davis at every aspect of basketball other than blocking shots and rim protecting. How people rank Davis ahead of Griffin is dumbfounding to me.

I think offensively Davis is better than Griffin. Griffin definitely lost a step as far as attacking the rim, either that or he simply just doesn't do it as often any more. He settles for that jumper a lot more, which isn't necessarily bad, but to me he seems to be slowly losing that dimension of his game where he's just a freight train running toward the basket.

My opinion probably isn't the best, most of what I've seen from AD is what he did in the playoffs, and holy crap, the guy was literally unstoppable for stretches. I have seen that from Griffin, but VERY few and far in between, and I don't recall ever seeing that from him this year. Even AD's jumper, at one point, wtf, the dude would not miss.

I think its absolutely fair to say AD is currently ahead of Griffin

slashsnake
08-14-2015, 08:30 AM
This Griffin is better or just as good as Davis at every aspect of basketball other than blocking shots and rim protecting. How people rank Davis ahead of Griffin is dumbfounding to me.

I don't know. I'd take Davis across the board defensively.



Offensively I like Griffin making plays for others more.

Davis easily at the line.

I really like Davis' midrange better to be honest, Griffin uses his more now, but I think Davis really hits his better.

O boards Davis easy.



It's tough offensively I guess because the Clips have more options, but I think CP3 does pretty well at getting his guys good looks too.

Scoots
08-14-2015, 01:06 PM
I think offensively Davis is better than Griffin. Griffin definitely lost a step as far as attacking the rim, either that or he simply just doesn't do it as often any more. He settles for that jumper a lot more, which isn't necessarily bad, but to me he seems to be slowly losing that dimension of his game where he's just a freight train running toward the basket.

My opinion probably isn't the best, most of what I've seen from AD is what he did in the playoffs, and holy crap, the guy was literally unstoppable for stretches. I have seen that from Griffin, but VERY few and far in between, and I don't recall ever seeing that from him this year. Even AD's jumper, at one point, wtf, the dude would not miss.

I think its absolutely fair to say AD is currently ahead of Griffin

Warriors fans view of Griffin is skewed by the team's hate for each other, and Green is pretty good at defending Griffin while he had no answer for Davis.

Griffin is now doubt an incredible talent at PF ... but I too put Davis above him. Look at almost all individual advanced stats and AD comes out close or ahead, and at this point his potential is greater.

Clippersfan86
08-14-2015, 01:37 PM
I think offensively Davis is better than Griffin. Griffin definitely lost a step as far as attacking the rim, either that or he simply just doesn't do it as often any more. He settles for that jumper a lot more, which isn't necessarily bad, but to me he seems to be slowly losing that dimension of his game where he's just a freight train running toward the basket.

My opinion probably isn't the best, most of what I've seen from AD is what he did in the playoffs, and holy crap, the guy was literally unstoppable for stretches. I have seen that from Griffin, but VERY few and far in between, and I don't recall ever seeing that from him this year. Even AD's jumper, at one point, wtf, the dude would not miss.

I think its absolutely fair to say AD is currently ahead of Griffin

No, he isn't. Griffin is better offensively, largely due to his huge edge in passing, and as the only superstar he put up 30 ppg this playoff run (few games CP3 was out), 26 overall and 28 ppg for the 20 games CP3 missed 2 years ago. Griffin is better at creating for himself, had a slight edge on the jumper (nearly 42 percent from 16 feet and out this year, 40 from 10-15 on higher volume), WAY better passer, equal finisher inside. Griffin has more post moves too. How are you going to say Griffin hasn't been unstoppable when he just AVERAGED 25.5/12.5/6 in 14 playoff games!? Davis dominated but only played 4 games, vs a team running small ball often in the playoffs.

Defensively Davis blocks more shots, Griffin is a better PNR defender, which in today's game may be more useful.

The biggest gap between these players from either one is Griffin's massive playmaking/passing edge. Greater gap than Davis' advantage on defense.

Clippersfan86
08-14-2015, 01:40 PM
Warriors fans view of Griffin is skewed by the team's hate for each other, and Green is pretty good at defending Griffin while he had no answer for Davis.

Griffin is now doubt an incredible talent at PF ... but I too put Davis above him. Look at almost all individual advanced stats and AD comes out close or ahead, and at this point his potential is greater.

Don't forget Griffin's 40/12/5/3 game against the Warriors this year. H2H matchups are mostly irrelevant. Like you said Green does better guarding Griffin than Davis, but that doesn't mean much.

Clippersfan86
08-14-2015, 01:48 PM
Trust me when I say Griffin would average 25-28 ppg as the only star assuming he had solid role players around him. CP3 and Griffin will go down as an all time great duo. BUT the fact is they both need to dominate the ball to be at their max effectiveness. So together, they hurt their own individual stats a bit. It's far more like Lebron/Wade or Payton/Kemp than Stockton/Malone. Where they basically sacrifice themselves, not get a boost statistically.

Clippersfan86
08-14-2015, 01:50 PM
Nobody has matched the stats Griffin just put up since Big O, not even Lebron in terms of ppg/rpg/apg for an entire playoff run. Who knows how much more efficient he would of been if he wasn't run into the ground due to a lack of depth that caused him to drop off bad in 4th quarters. Most of this damage was in just 3 quarters.

Scoots
08-14-2015, 04:13 PM
Don't forget Griffin's 40/12/5/3 game against the Warriors this year. H2H matchups are mostly irrelevant. Like you said Green does better guarding Griffin than Davis, but that doesn't mean much.

It means exactly what I said it means ... that Warriors fans view of these two players is skewed.

Clippersfan86
08-14-2015, 07:29 PM
It means exactly what I said it means ... that Warriors fans view of these two players is skewed.

Well as long as you can admit that I suppose.

Vee-Rex
08-15-2015, 09:35 AM
Griffin is more seasoned but I'd take Davis over him. I think Davis is better but it's close.

At the same time, I feel anyone who say they'd take Griffin over Davis. Griffin's talent is so freaking incredible it's understandable and you can make an argument for him.

Vee-Rex
08-15-2015, 09:39 AM
So my list would look like:

Curry/Paul
Harden
LBJ/KD
Davis/Griffin
Cousins

Paul, KD, and Griffin can be argued as the best at their positions for sure. Harden is indisputably the best SG in the league. I think Cousins is the best C as well and would show it more if he was with a better run organization, even though Marc Gasol is in the discussion as well.

Clippersfan86
08-15-2015, 12:10 PM
Griffin is more seasoned but I'd take Davis over him. I think Davis is better but it's close.

At the same time, I feel anyone who say they'd take Griffin over Davis. Griffin's talent is so freaking incredible it's understandable and you can make an argument for him.

And that's my main thing. I won't argue against people picking Davis. What I will argue against is that it's not debatable or that it's a landslide win.

Clippersfan86
08-15-2015, 12:16 PM
Kevin Love is a prime example of huge numbers on an inferior team potentially being misleading. He went from a 26/13 player to a 18/10 player in one year (which I and many others predicted btw). Love is a great player and had some injury issues but it's a good example of how it's much easier to put up huge numbers when you don't have another superstar next to you. Griffin has proven that when he's the only star recently he can put up those big stats. To the tune of 28/10/6 in 20 games without CP3 two years ago when he made that late MVP push.

Scoots
08-15-2015, 12:32 PM
I think D is still wildly under-rated in player evaluation.

Cousins > Gasol, but the margin is not as big as some think because of Gasol on D ... even though that gap is closing.

Davis > Griffin, but again, the margin is not big.

Harden > Thompson/Butler but I think it's a much smaller gap than most think because while Harden is much better at half the game, the other two are much better at the other end.

Clippersfan86
08-15-2015, 01:16 PM
Defense is harder to quantify with current metrics than offense. But what most are saying in here is Davis' defense is overrated. You see gaudy steals and blocks numbers and assume he's elite. But he's a mediocre defender in some aspects. I personally haven't looked since mid last season or so, but when I DID look at the figures he was doing badly on PNR defense and not as Elite as blocks may suggest at rim defense (opponents shot like 54 percent against him at rim). Davis is amazing and this league will likely be his soon. But right now he's becoming a bit overrated.

Scoots
08-15-2015, 05:13 PM
I didn't say anything about Davis vs Griffin D ... I just said that they were close.

The Pels D in general was not good so it's even harder to rate Davis. But in the 12 or so games I saw Davis play I was impressed with his effort and ability.

Clippersfan86
08-15-2015, 06:46 PM
I didn't say anything about Davis vs Griffin D ... I just said that they were close.

The Pels D in general was not good so it's even harder to rate Davis. But in the 12 or so games I saw Davis play I was impressed with his effort and ability.

I know you haven't said anything I really disagree with. Just commenting on the valuing defense more thing.

Scoots
08-15-2015, 09:51 PM
I know you haven't said anything I really disagree with. Just commenting on the valuing defense more thing.

Okay. I know you understand. DJ is the poster child of numbers over actual quality and you get to watch him every game.

xnick5757
08-15-2015, 09:55 PM
PG: Curry
SG: Harden
SF: LeBron
PF: Davis
C: Boogie

Clippersfan86
08-15-2015, 11:49 PM
Okay. I know you understand. DJ is the poster child of numbers over actual quality and you get to watch him every game.

Agree. DJ is in the same boat as Davis. Big block numbers, but lacks a lot of fundamental, simple stuff on defense like making smart switches on PNR.

Scoots
08-16-2015, 01:04 AM
Agree. DJ is in the same boat as Davis. Big block numbers, but lacks a lot of fundamental, simple stuff on defense like making smart switches on PNR.

But unlike DJ's situation, Davis has been playing with a bunch of players who don't rotate on their responsibilities and are always out of place so his only option has been to over-extend himself. It will be interesting if Gentry changes that this year ... but his hiring of Darren Erman makes me think Davis' teammates will get a LOT better this year.

Clippersfan86
08-16-2015, 01:45 AM
But unlike DJ's situation, Davis has been playing with a bunch of players who don't rotate on their responsibilities and are always out of place so his only option has been to over-extend himself. It will be interesting if Gentry changes that this year ... but his hiring of Darren Erman makes me think Davis' teammates will get a LOT better this year.

It's actually not much different. Clippers wing defense has been pretty atrocious the last 2-3 years outside of CP3. DJ is constantly put in bad spots due to a bunch of mediocre defenders on the team, mainly from the wings. Mind you... although the Pelicans were the 20th ranked defense or whatever, the Clippers weren't much better at 16th.

FlashBolt
08-17-2015, 01:38 PM
I think D is still wildly under-rated in player evaluation.

Cousins > Gasol, but the margin is not as big as some think because of Gasol on D ... even though that gap is closing.

Davis > Griffin, but again, the margin is not big.

Harden > Thompson/Butler but I think it's a much smaller gap than most think because while Harden is much better at half the game, the other two are much better at the other end.

Oh stop it.. The gap between SG's is incredibly huge. Thompson went MIA in the Finals. He would never lead the Rockets to the 2nd seed of the West; same for Butler. Plus, Harden improved on the defensive end tenfold this season. You can look at all the GIF's you want but those plays are very selective. The Cousins vs Gasol thing can go both ways. As a teammate who just needs a big to contend for a title, I would rather have Gasol. The rebounding numbers are also misconstrued. Kings frontcourt includes only: Cousins. More opportunity for rebounds. Also, Marc has been distancing himself away from the post many times, which can lead to fewer rebound opportunities. And Zach Randolph is always a workhorse in the rebounding apartment. His REB% is not that far from Cousins.

Scoots
08-17-2015, 03:55 PM
Did you miss the part where I said Harden was better? I did, and he is. Harden's D improved "tenfold" ... what is 10 X 0? Yes it got better, but it's still bad on average ... he CAN play D but often chooses not to or does it poorly. Harden is one of the best players in the league. I just said that the gap isn't as big as people make it out to be, not that there isn't a gap. I guarantee several GMs and coaches would prefer Butler/Thompson to Harden just for fit and style (Joe Dumars types vs Kobe Bryant's offensive game, hold the D).

Cousins wasn't alone. Reggie Evans, Jason Thompson, Ryan Hollins, Carl Landry are not bad rebounders.

ManRam
08-17-2015, 04:39 PM
Defense is harder to quantify with current metrics than offense. But what most are saying in here is Davis' defense is overrated. You see gaudy steals and blocks numbers and assume he's elite. But he's a mediocre defender in some aspects. I personally haven't looked since mid last season or so, but when I DID look at the figures he was doing badly on PNR defense and not as Elite as blocks may suggest at rim defense (opponents shot like 54 percent against him at rim). Davis is amazing and this league will likely be his soon. But right now he's becoming a bit overrated.

I think this applies more to the 2013-14 season than this past season. He was very far from a impacting defender two seasons ago. A lot of people assumed he was, but the plus minus/on-off/synergy stats didn't quite suggest he was.

Last year they did. His DRPM, for example, was 4.2. That trailed only Duncan among PFs. In 2013/14 his on/off DRTG numbers suggested that the team defense was only negligibly better with him on the court. This year it was notably worse (-3.4 pts per 100 poss.). This past year opponents shot 48.6% at the rim against him. That's not quite elite like Gobert, Ibaka or Bogut, but it's right there with DAJ, Duncan, Marc, etc. He's more than just a rim protector like Gobert and Bogut kinda are. He rovers around way more. He was as good as any big man when isolated against. I gotta leave work so I'm done listing things, but yeah...he's very solid.

He does still get killed in the P&R though, but besides that he's very strong. He wasn't that in 2013-14, but people did assume. Probably still a tad overrated, but if this is a projection for next year it's safe to assume he'll only get better considering the strides he did make.

I've been on the "slow down we're overrating him" bandwagon since he entered the league, but I'm finding myself heaping praise on him lately. I think he made that huge step, and I think he takes another. 3rd or 4th best player seems like a lock

andy2518
08-17-2015, 04:50 PM
I'm thinking Davis will be the best next season. Followed by Durant if healthy. Here is how I think it will shape up next season.

Davis
Durant
Curry
Lebron
CP3
Griffin
Westbrook
Harden
Cousins
Irving

Oh, nm I just saw it said by position.

Curry
Harden
Durant
Davis
Cousins

andy2518
08-17-2015, 04:52 PM
Oh stop it.. The gap between SG's is incredibly huge. Thompson went MIA in the Finals. He would never lead the Rockets to the 2nd seed of the West; same for Butler. Plus, Harden improved on the defensive end tenfold this season. You can look at all the GIF's you want but those plays are very selective. The Cousins vs Gasol thing can go both ways. As a teammate who just needs a big to contend for a title, I would rather have Gasol. The rebounding numbers are also misconstrued. Kings frontcourt includes only: Cousins. More opportunity for rebounds. Also, Marc has been distancing himself away from the post many times, which can lead to fewer rebound opportunities. And Zach Randolph is always a workhorse in the rebounding apartment. His REB% is not that far from Cousins.

At least Klay made it to the finals before he choked. People really forget about Harden's 14 turnovers in game five of the WCF.

flea
08-17-2015, 05:23 PM
I think this applies more to the 2013-14 season than this past season. He was very far from a impacting defender two seasons ago. A lot of people assumed he was, but the plus minus/on-off/synergy stats didn't quite suggest he was.

Last year they did. His DRPM, for example, was 4.2. That trailed only Duncan among PFs. In 2013/14 his on/off DRTG numbers suggested that the team defense was only negligibly better with him on the court. This year it was notably worse (-3.4 pts per 100 poss.). This past year opponents shot 48.6% at the rim against him. That's not quite elite like Gobert, Ibaka or Bogut, but it's right there with DAJ, Duncan, Marc, etc. He's more than just a rim protector like Gobert and Bogut kinda are. He rovers around way more. He was as good as any big man when isolated against. I gotta leave work so I'm done listing things, but yeah...he's very solid.

He does still get killed in the P&R though, but besides that he's very strong. He wasn't that in 2013-14, but people did assume. Probably still a tad overrated, but if this is a projection for next year it's safe to assume he'll only get better considering the strides he did make.

I've been on the "slow down we're overrating him" bandwagon since he entered the league, but I'm finding myself heaping praise on him lately. I think he made that huge step, and I think he takes another. 3rd or 4th best player seems like a lock

DRPM and other +/- are fine for some uses but if you're suggestion Davis is anything close to Duncan or Ibaka then I've got to vigorously disagree. Davis isn't a bad defender, but he if he's a plus defender it's not by much. His +/- is giant because he's far and away the best offensive player on a team that relies on scoring to win, and when he's off the floor the team gives up both size and scoring.

He's a solid rebounder but his numbers suggest he's more than what he is - which is just good. He's not the best rebounder on the team and the team isn't that much worse for it when he's on the bench. This is worrisome because defensive rebounds are sort of like help defense, which is what Davis thinks of himself, and when you engage more in the play it can leave you in bad position. I think he'll be a KG type of rebounder, not a guy you can rely on to win you battles there consistently over a full game.

His D is way too far on the float around see what happens type. He looks like a big man James Harden or Lebron James, just sort of wandering around his man in the paint. When he's in the play his faults are apparent - P&R fundamentals not there and he can get pushed around (just like on the offensive end). You can blame the coaching but Monty isn't that bad, I just think the D was poor because of unreliable wings and an interior that can be gutted. Davis has all the tools to anchor a defense, but he does not do that yet. He's not in plays he should be, hunts for the ball too much, is only mediocre on the defensive glass, and isn't good at P&R. That is an average or slightly better defender, even with the steals and blocks.

Let's see him be the best defensive player on his own team first before we talk about his defense in relation to 2 of the 5 best in the NBA (Ibaka and Duncan).

cmellofan15
08-17-2015, 05:31 PM
lmao at any GMs taking Butler or Klay over Harden. sounds like the Danny Green over Kyrie argument all over again

Scoots
08-17-2015, 05:55 PM
lmao at any GMs taking Butler or Klay over Harden. sounds like the Danny Green over Kyrie argument all over again

I wasn't aware Danny made an all-nba team. Harden and Klay are the only SGs who made all-nba last year ... Like I said, it's closer than people think. And on we go with D and team fit being disrespected by fans.

I took a look because I wondered ... I'm not surprised Klay Thompson made 16 all-defensive team ballots, I am totally stunned Harden made 2.

FlashBolt
08-17-2015, 11:00 PM
At least Klay made it to the finals before he choked. People really forget about Harden's 14 turnovers in game five of the WCF.

But Klay didn't make the Finals because of Klay. Harden made the playoffs because of Harden. Big difference there. Also, you're forgetting that Harden played an amazing three out of those five games. Klay didn't play amazing besides game 2. There is nothing that points to Klay being better than Harden. You can laugh at his defense all you want but that holds little water.

FlashBolt
08-17-2015, 11:01 PM
I wasn't aware Danny made an all-nba team. Harden and Klay are the only SGs who made all-nba last year ... Like I said, it's closer than people think. And on we go with D and team fit being disrespected by fans.

I took a look because I wondered ... I'm not surprised Klay Thompson made 16 all-defensive team ballots, I am totally stunned Harden made 2.

Can you provide an argument instead of just voicing your opinion? Harden isn't good at defense, we get it. What else do you have? Nothing?

Scoots
08-18-2015, 12:07 AM
There is nothing that points to Klay being better than Harden.

Who here said Klay was better than Harden? I think you are arguing with someone who isn't posting here.

Scoots
08-18-2015, 12:19 AM
Can you provide an argument instead of just voicing your opinion? Harden isn't good at defense, we get it. What else do you have? Nothing?

I've got a lot, but you seem to be missing the first point ... Harden is better than Thompson and Butler.

cmellofan15
08-18-2015, 12:20 AM
I wasn't aware Danny made an all-nba team. Harden and Klay are the only SGs who made all-nba last year ... Like I said, it's closer than people think. And on we go with D and team fit being disrespected by fans.

I took a look because I wondered ... I'm not surprised Klay Thompson made 16 all-defensive team ballots, I am totally stunned Harden made 2.

and the year before Goran Dragic made an all nba team the year before. guess he and Klay Thompson are right on par then, huh?

and I would love to talk about team fit and defense in players who have similar impacts on the game. but unfortunately this isn't one of those situations.

FlashBolt
08-18-2015, 02:00 AM
Who here said Klay was better than Harden? I think you are arguing with someone who isn't posting here.


I've got a lot, but you seem to be missing the first point ... Harden is better than Thompson and Butler.

The gap between Harden+Thompson is bigger than you think. Sorry, you have no argument in that aspect. Thompson would not take that Houston team to the playoffs like Harden did.. let's get real. Plus, reading is a highly important skill. I never said you said Thompson was better but to say it's closer than people think? Really? Harden could be on anyone's top five NBA players list and no one would bat an eye. Klay? He's lucky to be a top twenty.. the gap is in reality, bigger than you think.

ManRam
08-18-2015, 09:26 AM
DRPM and other +/- are fine for some uses but if you're suggestion Davis is anything close to Duncan or Ibaka then I've got to vigorously disagree.

I didn't suggest that. I said, broadly, that he made a leap from a non-impacting defender to an impacting one last year. I threw some names out there for context.

I'd imagine he'll continue to trend upwards at a pretty nice clip. He still has all the potential in the world to become something Duncan or Ibaka-esque defensively. He wasn't last year (overall...he does do some things as good as them), but I think he gets much closer this season. He has some obvious holes in his game defensively, but they're correctable. We're projecting for next year. He'll get better, and significantly-so.


Edit: I confused this thread with the Top-10 voting thread in that last part. Sorry.

Clippersfan86
08-18-2015, 01:50 PM
Btw those knocking Griffin's defense. Did you know he was the #1 paint defender in post up situations in the entire league? He allows a league best .660 PPP in post up situations. He's #2 in shooting percentage defense in post plays and #3 in turnovers forced in the post at 17+ percent turnover rate. Not to mention he's a better PNR defender than Davis. So even defensively there isn't really a gap.

Clippersfan86
08-18-2015, 01:52 PM
This is via Synergy Sports btw. They are entirely different defensive types. Griffin is a better 1 on 1 stopper who can guard wings on switches better, Davis is a much better rim protector and weak side shot blocker. Both these guys are slightly above average defenders at this point basically, yet one is hailed as a lock down defender, one as a horrible one.

cmellofan15
08-18-2015, 02:06 PM
Btw those knocking Griffin's defense. Did you know he was the #1 paint defender in post up situations in the entire league? He allows a league best .660 PPP in post up situations. He's #2 in shooting percentage defense in post plays and #3 in turnovers forced in the post at 17+ percent turnover rate. Not to mention he's a better PNR defender than Davis. So even defensively there isn't really a gap.

I honestly think people just don't care. it's pretty evident by watching the two that there isn't some gap defensively, they just play different roles in their respective defenses. it's funny how people can look at something like blocks per game and attribute that to Davis being some great low post defender, but Harden had the 3rd most steals, and 6th most per game last season and people tend to discredit him as a perimeter defender.

Clippersfan86
08-18-2015, 02:17 PM
I honestly think people just don't care. it's pretty evident by watching the two that there isn't some gap defensively, they just play different roles in their respective defenses. it's funny how people can look at something like blocks per game and attribute that to Davis being some great low post defender, but Harden had the 3rd most steals, and 6th most per game last season and people tend to discredit him as a perimeter defender.

People definitely cherry pick. Mind you I'm not saying Griffin is an elite defender in general. Just an underrated one, Davis an overrated one. Griffin has a long way t go defensively and Davis no doubt will eventually be the much better defender. But give me 5.3 apg over 3 bpg ANY day for any position. An assist is more valuable than a block, especially when you consider how many blocks go back to the shooting team or out of bounds. If a defender can control even 50 percent of blocks to himself or a teammate, that's elite. 2 or 3 points are worth a lot more than a turnover say 50 percent of the time with a block.

FlashBolt
08-20-2015, 02:16 AM
People definitely cherry pick. Mind you I'm not saying Griffin is an elite defender in general. Just an underrated one, Davis an overrated one. Griffin has a long way t go defensively and Davis no doubt will eventually be the much better defender. But give me 5.3 apg over 3 bpg ANY day for any position. An assist is more valuable than a block, especially when you consider how many blocks go back to the shooting team or out of bounds. If a defender can control even 50 percent of blocks to himself or a teammate, that's elite. 2 or 3 points are worth a lot more than a turnover say 50 percent of the time with a block.

Tough to say regarding Blake's assist. He's a good passer but how many of those are lobs to DJ? I don't think an assist is > than a block 100% of the time. It really depends on what your team needs tbh. Players are going to think twice if Anthony Davis is there so his presence alone is priceless. An assist? Depends on who he is playing with. If DeAndre isn't there, we'd probably see his APG drop 1-2?

Fowl Rick
08-20-2015, 03:00 AM
Btw those knocking Griffin's defense. Did you know he was the #1 paint defender in post up situations in the entire league? He allows a league best .660 PPP in post up situations. He's #2 in shooting percentage defense in post plays and #3 in turnovers forced in the post at 17+ percent turnover rate. Not to mention he's a better PNR defender than Davis. So even defensively there isn't really a gap.

Solid post, thanks for enlightening me on something i didn't know. The reason i come on this site is to read stuff like this.

Clippersfan86
08-20-2015, 09:29 AM
Tough to say regarding Blake's assist. He's a good passer but how many of those are lobs to DJ? I don't think an assist is > than a block 100% of the time. It really depends on what your team needs tbh. Players are going to think twice if Anthony Davis is there so his presence alone is priceless. An assist? Depends on who he is playing with. If DeAndre isn't there, we'd probably see his APG drop 1-2?

Its a GOOD thing that Griffin finds teammates like DJ for easy buckets. Before the DJ/Blake connection was a thing remember Griffin averaged 4 apg as a rookie. He's probably getting only one apg at most out of that play which leaves 4.3 for the season, still awesome for a big. Griffin has had 3 triple doubles off the top of my head where he didn't throw a lob to DJ I'm almost positive. In other words, he's more than throwing the easy, smart passes for lobs. He actually gives a boost to 3 point shooters with his playmaking, especially Redick.

I didn't mean on an individual basis a block is ALWAYS inferior. Just meant in general blocks are overrated (but definitely not worthless). Nylon Calculus broke down why here. With exact numbers.

http://nyloncalculus.com/2015/04/13/a-quick-examination-of-blocked-shots/

Interesting tidbit in there? Anthony Davis' blocks are particularly less valuable due to how many come on the perimeter and are recovered by the offense.

nastynice
08-20-2015, 07:01 PM
Warriors fans view of Griffin is skewed by the team's hate for each other, and Green is pretty good at defending Griffin while he had no answer for Davis.

Griffin is now doubt an incredible talent at PF ... but I too put Davis above him. Look at almost all individual advanced stats and AD comes out close or ahead, and at this point his potential is greater.


No, he isn't. Griffin is better offensively, largely due to his huge edge in passing, and as the only superstar he put up 30 ppg this playoff run (few games CP3 was out), 26 overall and 28 ppg for the 20 games CP3 missed 2 years ago. Griffin is better at creating for himself, had a slight edge on the jumper (nearly 42 percent from 16 feet and out this year, 40 from 10-15 on higher volume), WAY better passer, equal finisher inside. Griffin has more post moves too. How are you going to say Griffin hasn't been unstoppable when he just AVERAGED 25.5/12.5/6 in 14 playoff games!? Davis dominated but only played 4 games, vs a team running small ball often in the playoffs.

Defensively Davis blocks more shots, Griffin is a better PNR defender, which in today's game may be more useful.

The biggest gap between these players from either one is Griffin's massive playmaking/passing edge. Greater gap than Davis' advantage on defense.

I don't think so, I LOVE the matchup and wanted to see it pretty bad this last year in the playoffs. I got love for all cali teams, whenever my yay area team is out, I'm always rooting for any other cali teams. Except the niners. Damn the niners to hell!!

Look, I can't entirely dismiss stats, but honestly, there is SOMEthing up with Griffin. Two years ago I was pretty straightforward in campaigning Griffin as the 3rd best player in the league, I think he's a phenomenal player and talent, but these last couple years have been a bit disappointing. They've been good, but compared to what I though he was gonna evolve into, its not been all that great. Like he relies on that jumper WAY too much now, his game around the basket is nowhere near where it once used to be. I get that people lose some attack and athleticism with time, but he really used to be a monster around the rim. Now, he'll get the ball at the top of the key, no one within 5 ft, he'll think about driving but just always settle for the jumper.

His jumper is good, don't get me wrong, but he seemed to develop his jumper MAJORLY at the expense of his explosiveness. He's just not the same to me, for some reason, I think he overthinks the game too much. I really don't know what, but there is something that is slightly off, maybe he's not confident. But he really should be mentioned unanimously as one of the best in the game, but he's not so its a little less than what I expected from him.

No beef against Griffin, but I would EASILY take AD over him, and tbh, I'd easily take a lot of pf's over him, something's off with him mentally. I remember he used to be soft as **** when he first came in the league, then he started kinda manning up past few years. But I think he's just reverting to that shell, his mental make up is just not where u'd want a bball player's to be.

I wish he was just a ****in bully. Not a cheap or dirty player, but a straight up bully in the paint. Like zach randolph, lol

nastynice
08-20-2015, 07:08 PM
lmao at any GMs taking Butler or Klay over Harden. sounds like the Danny Green over Kyrie argument all over again

...ehh, as a warriors fan there is no way in hell I'd want to trade Klay for Harden, I'm pretty sure our FO feels the same way. Harden's definitely better, no question, but when we start talking fit and fill, then there's a lot to be considered instead of just "who's better?"

Chronz
08-20-2015, 07:19 PM
...ehh, as a warriors fan there is no way in hell I'd want to trade Klay for Harden, I'm pretty sure our FO feels the same way. Harden's definitely better, no question, but when we start talking fit and fill, then there's a lot to be considered instead of just "who's better?"

Harden fits too imo

Clippersfan86
08-20-2015, 07:33 PM
I don't think so, I LOVE the matchup and wanted to see it pretty bad this last year in the playoffs. I got love for all cali teams, whenever my yay area team is out, I'm always rooting for any other cali teams. Except the niners. Damn the niners to hell!!

Look, I can't entirely dismiss stats, but honestly, there is SOMEthing up with Griffin. Two years ago I was pretty straightforward in campaigning Griffin as the 3rd best player in the league, I think he's a phenomenal player and talent, but these last couple years have been a bit disappointing. They've been good, but compared to what I though he was gonna evolve into, its not been all that great. Like he relies on that jumper WAY too much now, his game around the basket is nowhere near where it once used to be. I get that people lose some attack and athleticism with time, but he really used to be a monster around the rim. Now, he'll get the ball at the top of the key, no one within 5 ft, he'll think about driving but just always settle for the jumper.

His jumper is good, don't get me wrong, but he seemed to develop his jumper MAJORLY at the expense of his explosiveness. He's just not the same to me, for some reason, I think he overthinks the game too much. I really don't know what, but there is something that is slightly off, maybe he's not confident. But he really should be mentioned unanimously as one of the best in the game, but he's not so its a little less than what I expected from him.

No beef against Griffin, but I would EASILY take AD over him, and tbh, I'd easily take a lot of pf's over him, something's off with him mentally. I remember he used to be soft as **** when he first came in the league, then he started kinda manning up past few years. But I think he's just reverting to that shell, his mental make up is just not where u'd want a bball player's to be.

I wish he was just a ****in bully. Not a cheap or dirty player, but a straight up bully in the paint. Like zach randolph, lol

Did you watch him dominate in these playoffs? Sure in 4th quarters he struggled with fatigue, but what about him was "soft"? Yes Blake relies on the jumper too much now at times, but can you hate when he's hitting 40+ percent on really high volume? The explosiveness/athleticism thing has been put to rest already on this forum. Blake admitted he conserves himself more for the playoffs the last two years. These 3 posters were in game 1 of the playoffs, tell me if he has dropped off physically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idnICrEhNsI

So Blake hasn't gotten softer, hasn't lost athleticism etc. He's decided he's going to try to have a 15 year career, instead of a 9 year career is what he's done. He's still an elite finisher and dunker. He's still among the most physical players in the NBA.

nastynice
08-20-2015, 07:59 PM
Did you watch him dominate in these playoffs? Sure in 4th quarters he struggled with fatigue, but what about him was "soft"? Yes Blake relies on the jumper too much now at times, but can you hate when he's hitting 40+ percent on really high volume? The explosiveness/athleticism thing has been put to rest already on this forum. Blake admitted he conserves himself more for the playoffs the last two years. These 3 posters were in game 1 of the playoffs, tell me if he has dropped off physically.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idnICrEhNsI

So Blake hasn't gotten softer, hasn't lost athleticism etc. He's decided he's going to try to have a 15 year career, instead of a 9 year career is what he's done. He's still an elite finisher and dunker. He's still among the most physical players in the NBA.

look, that's all good n dandy, if the reason he's soft and not as explosive is cuz he wants a longer career, that's fine, I didn't say anything bad about that. I'm just saying, there was a particular element to his game which has regressed, guess it was a side effect of him expanding the other parts of his game. If you think he's just as scary running to the basket as he was 3 yrs ago, then fine, we simply just disagree.

And yes, he is definitely not the same player with a head of steam to the basket as he has been in years past, why would 3 youtube dunks make me change that stance? I never said he lost his ability to dunk...

Chronz
08-20-2015, 08:39 PM
Definitely not as explosive imo. Rumors abound as to why.

flea
08-20-2015, 08:41 PM
Definitely not as explosive imo. Rumors abound as to why.

He's in his athletic prime so I'm interested what those rumors are? Makes sense to peak 24-25 but it looks like he peaked earlier. Other than the knee reconstruction what are the rumors? Conditioning?

nastynice
08-20-2015, 09:15 PM
He's in his athletic prime so I'm interested what those rumors are? Makes sense to peak 24-25 but it looks like he peaked earlier. Other than the knee reconstruction what are the rumors? Conditioning?

I think it's mental. I think he used to play off instinct and was just an athletic marvel, but he wanna expand his game which he had to work at, and it just seems like he's thinking too much. Rather than feeling the ball and just reacting he seems to hesitate a bit, survey things, and then play with his head rather than pure instinct.

The jumper is beautiful, the presence is still there, it's just not what it used to be

FlashBolt
08-20-2015, 11:40 PM
...ehh, as a warriors fan there is no way in hell I'd want to trade Klay for Harden, I'm pretty sure our FO feels the same way. Harden's definitely better, no question, but when we start talking fit and fill, then there's a lot to be considered instead of just "who's better?"

Let's take Curry off that team and then see if they want Harden or not.

Scoots
08-21-2015, 11:05 PM
Let's take Curry off that team and then see if they want Harden or not.

But then it's a different team isn't it?

Clippersfan86
08-21-2015, 11:34 PM
I'm going to take Blake's word for it. He said he doesn't put 100 percent effort into leaping, dunking, attacking paint now for conservation. In the playoffs he had like 3 dunks that made it clear he was telling the truth (rim head level).

FlashBolt
08-22-2015, 01:01 AM
But then it's a different team isn't it?

Exactly; but this was always about who the best SG is. Sorry, Klay isn't even close to James Harden in that aspect. He's on that level of Jimmy Butler (this would be a tough one to decide). C'mon, we're talking about a guy who carried a just OKAY team (Dwight injured for nearly half the season) to the third best seed in the NBA (2nd in the insanely competitive West). I cannot picture any other SG in the NBA having the same impact on that team.

Scoots
08-22-2015, 11:37 AM
Exactly; but this was always about who the best SG is. Sorry, Klay isn't even close to James Harden in that aspect. He's on that level of Jimmy Butler (this would be a tough one to decide). C'mon, we're talking about a guy who carried a just OKAY team (Dwight injured for nearly half the season) to the third best seed in the NBA (2nd in the insanely competitive West). I cannot picture any other SG in the NBA having the same impact on that team.

My point was NEVER about who the best SG was. I said up front that Harden was best. I really don't know how it's possible you keep missing that.

BallIsAll
08-23-2015, 03:46 PM
I'd take harden over klay any day. Although klay is getting better every year and is constantly in currys shadow

tredigs
08-23-2015, 04:52 PM
Klay struggles to create for himself and benefits playing in this offense with Curry more so than in any other possible situation imo. He's a great piece on this team, but Harden is a great piece on every team. I wouldn't love the idea of Klay as a #1, but who knows, maybe he could channel a little Reggie Time and ball with a solid distribution PG and great D behind him.

flea
08-23-2015, 05:07 PM
Klay struggles to create for himself and benefits playing in this offense with Curry more so than in any other possible situation imo. He's a great piece on this team, but Harden is a great piece on every team. I wouldn't love the idea of Klay as a #1, but who knows, maybe he could channel a little Reggie Time and ball with a solid distribution PG and great D behind him.

If Harden had Klay's post-up fadeaway he'd be a consensus top 3 player IMO. Don't think Klay is ever going to be a ball-dominant scoring threat but he does almost everything you could ask of an off-guard. Harden is merely a "good" off-guard.

tredigs
08-23-2015, 05:33 PM
If Harden had Klay's post-up fadeaway he'd be a consensus top 3 player IMO. Don't think Klay is ever going to be a ball-dominant scoring threat but he does almost everything you could ask of an off-guard. Harden is merely a "good" off-guard.

I guess you could argue that 2nd point seeing as he's not quite the elite shooter Klay is, and doesn't have his defensive presence, but he was pretty great as a 2nd/3rd option with KD+Westbrook in his youth. That said, he's clearly best as the ball dominant option. The Warriors would certainly be a stronger squad if Klay had the ability to create for himself more with the ball. There would be less pressure on Curry. He's also not quite the defender that he is given credit for to be honest. And Harden is not as bad as he is given grief for (despite the obvious lapses more often than we'd like to see from a top 5 player).

flea
08-23-2015, 05:36 PM
Harden was basically the PG of the 2nd unit for the Thunder, and I wasn't talking about defense at all. Harden is still bad, just plays on a good defense now, and I agree that Klay is perhaps a bit overrated.

archdevil84
08-23-2015, 05:57 PM
wade>harden
because i'm biased

tredigs
08-23-2015, 06:19 PM
Harden was basically the PG of the 2nd unit for the Thunder, and I wasn't talking about defense at all. Harden is still bad, just plays on a good defense now, and I agree that Klay is perhaps a bit overrated.

He also spent a lot of time with KD/Westbrook. He was playing starters minutes by the time he left and was the best in the game in his role. Pretty sure he was 6th man of the year at the end there. Interestingly I never heard anything bad about his D until he became the #1 and a superstar offensively. Could've been there, though. Eye test wise I watched a tonnnn of OKC games during his years there and I do think this past season was his best on that end.

nastynice
08-24-2015, 01:57 AM
Exactly; but this was always about who the best SG is. Sorry, Klay isn't even close to James Harden in that aspect. He's on that level of Jimmy Butler (this would be a tough one to decide). C'mon, we're talking about a guy who carried a just OKAY team (Dwight injured for nearly half the season) to the third best seed in the NBA (2nd in the insanely competitive West). I cannot picture any other SG in the NBA having the same impact on that team.

lol, no its not about who the better sg is, if u read the post I replied to it's about the statement that every gm would take harden over Klay. Untrue. That's it. If it's about who the best sg is didn't I already say harden is easily the choice for sg in this thread?

You're just trying to bring up some bs from last year for God knows what reason ur obsessed with klay or dubs fans or something