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RedSoxtober
08-06-2015, 04:27 PM
Most folks seemed to consider HanRam a decent signing during the offseason. Indeed, he's generally viewed as the most acceptable of the three $20M-ish contracts given out between the end of last season and the Opening Day 2015. I've probably been in that boat but consider him the best trade target for the offseason primarily because the allure of his offense could attract a team that could hide his defense (e.g., AL team with a DH opening). I think he could attract suitors and probably a decent return if the Sox would subsidize his contract.

There was an acknowledgement, at least by -Lav-, that things could go a bit wrong if he comes in discontent or unmotivated. Perhaps that's led to this...


In many ways, the questions about Hanley Ramirez’s defense have obscured his terrible offensive performance of the second half. Since the All-Star break, he’s hitting .200 with a .219 OBP and .229 slugging mark, a .448 OPS that ranks 210th among 215 players in the big leagues with at least 50 second-half plate appearances.

He has two walks and 15 strikeouts in that time, with roughly one-third of his plate appearances (24 of 73) having lasted one or two pitches. That’s aggressive approach isn’t inherently a bad thing – Ramirez frequently ambushed first pitches for homers in the first half – but as the season has progressed, that first-pitch attack has been less selective and resulted in diminishing returns (he’s 6-for-24 with two doubles on first pitches since the break), and he’s now up to 19 straight games without a homer.

Overall, Ramirez’s offensive numbers – which seemingly had a chance to explode with his move to the AL East – have instead plummeted either to or near career lows. He’s hitting .260 (down from .297 in his career) with a career-low .301 OBP (career mark: .368) and .445 slugging mark (down from .496 in his career). The net result? In combination with his defense, Ramirez’s offensive struggles peg him as having a negative value in Fangraphs’ Wins Above Replacement, his -1.0 WAR ranking 159th in the big leagues – dead last among qualifying position players.Alex Speier

Thoughts? Is this just the disinterest of a productive player during a terrible team season? Should he be salvaged as part of the fix for 2016 or dealt for pieces of the puzzle?

Bo Sox Fan
08-06-2015, 05:43 PM
I would much rather keep him and move him into a corner infield spot and sign Heyward as the long term right fielder, Betts stays in center while Castillo gets regular reps in left. I give up pretending Bradley is going to finally hit someday.

I give up pretending Bradley is going to finally hit someday. Sandoval is the odd man out, IMO.

Heyward - 8 years, $160 million. He's the best defensive right fielder in baseball that can slot in the hardest right field in baseball with a nice complementary bat at age 25.

Norieaga
08-07-2015, 10:44 AM
I would be very opposed to signing Jason Heyward. Great defensive player but he's pretty much a sub-800 OPS'er. I can't justify giving him $160M, I'd rather stick JBJ out there and hope he figures out how to at least be mediocre with the bat - because at the moment he's beyond awful. Give the $160M to an elite pitcher instead.

EDIT: Keep Hanley. Last thing I'd want to do is pay another team for his hitting. He'll come around next season, his bat is still there. The whole team is in a slump and the mood is **** this year, morale is probably very low. Ride the year out, suck it up, and come back strong next season.

RedSoxtober
08-07-2015, 02:26 PM
In light of that imperative, it’s worth asking: How much of the remaining $68.25 million that Ramirez is owed over the next three years would the Red Sox have to eat if they wanted to trade him? How much has his value as a player declined as a result of his poor season? If he were a free agent right now, how much might a team pay him?

Three evaluators from different teams weighed in on the matter. One opined that Ramirez might see a two-year, $25 million deal on the open market; another suggested a two-year, $26 million deal might be tolerable for a team; a third said that it wasn’t out of the realm of possibility that a team might take on a three-year, $30 million deal for a player whose track record suggests he can be vastly better than what he’s been in Boston – in an age 31 season that many would assume to be the flickering conclusion of his prime and the transition to the decline phase of his career.

All three evaluators were skittish about even those sorts of financial terms for Ramirez, given shared concerns about his defense, his makeup, his health, and his position.

“He’s almost untradeable at this point,” opined one of the evaluators.

In all likelihood, he’s not untradeable. The recent baseball landscape suggests that even horrific contracts – Carl Crawford and Vernon Wells and Josh Hamilton come to mind – can be moved.

But he’s done enough damage to his standing that, two-thirds of the way through his first year with the Red Sox, his value has plummeted by more than half from the market price that the Sox established in the winter, in the eyes of the three evaluators. If the Sox wanted to move him, there’s a real chance they’d have to assume half (or more) of his remaining $68.25 million.Alex Speier

RedSoxtober
08-07-2015, 02:30 PM
Sandoval is the odd man out, IMO.

I think everyone would prefer for Sandoval to be the odd man out. Much easier said than done. Presently he is at or below replacement level both offensively and defensively... which means you can get the same performance from the AAA depth kid for 1/39th the price. How do you suggest the Sox deal with that? Heavily subsidize his contract and hope that Shaw can swing 3B next year (the FA market is abysmal)? Take back a bad contract (kinda defeats the purpose unless it's fewer years)?

Bo Sox Fan
08-07-2015, 04:22 PM
To RedSoxtober:

I think Boston is in a situation where they have to use there farm system not just to acquire pitching, but to bail themselves out of bad contracts.

One scenario is knocking on the Padres door (the other team in the bidding war for Sandoval last winter) and perhaps taking on there stiff contracts after this season:

- Jedd Gyorko - 5 years, $28 mil while buying out his 6th year option at $1 mil.
- Craig Kimbrel - 3 years, $37 mil.

Give them Sandoval to show the fan base they still want to win. Swihart for the same reason, also to replace there loss of Grandal to the Dodgers and to start covering some value of Kimbrel. Michael Kopech, not a top prospect but a solid arm of the B level variety. Perhaps send them some cash on top of it all, but not a lot. $8 million over 4 years?

... Another scenario is swapping bad contracts. Albert Pujols is the only one I'd consider who would actually have a position to play while still being valuable offensively. Whether the Angels would consider that swap is anyone's guess. He has a cap hit of $24 million per after this season with 6 years remaining.

Norieaga
08-07-2015, 05:01 PM
This totally crazy but I'm throwing it out there for fun. Say the Reds were to eat half of what's remaining on Joey Votto's 8 year/$200M pact. Would you send over some good prospects in exchange for him? He's 31 and having a good year. I'm mentioning it only because Pujols was mentioned.

Votto has a terrible contract but I don't think it'd be too bad at 8 yr/$100M. Cincy would also save somewhere south of $100M so long as we'd only send prospects over. Any takers?

Green_Monster
08-07-2015, 07:10 PM
This totally crazy but I'm throwing it out there for fun. Say the Reds were to eat half of what's remaining on Joey Votto's 8 year/$200M pact. Would you send over some good prospects in exchange for him? He's 31 and having a good year. I'm mentioning it only because Pujols was mentioned.

Votto has a terrible contract but I don't think it'd be too bad at 8 yr/$100M. Cincy would also save somewhere south of $100M so long as we'd only send prospects over. Any takers?

Votto's contract isn't terrible. It might be bad in his final couple of years, but overall it's solid. He's a great player, and he's having a very good year.

The Red Sox would have to send Cincinnati some very good prospects.

-Lavigne43-
08-07-2015, 07:32 PM
He's a complete disaster defensively, and, after a tremendous April he has been terrible at the plate. He's hitting like he did at the end of his Marlins tenure. To be able to trade him you need him to have an epic last two months of the season.

I don't know that it's possible to trade Hanley and Sandoval. People bring up the Dodgers trade as if that makes it easy to dump horrible contracts, but people forget how good Adrian Gonzalez was. The Dodgers were willing to take on Crawford's contract because they thought they were getting a top 5 MLB hitter in return.

theGhost-isGone
08-08-2015, 06:06 AM
Votto's contract isn't terrible. It might be bad in his final couple of years, but overall it's solid. He's a great player, and he's having a very good year.

The Red Sox would have to send Cincinnati some very good prospects.

I'd love to make a big deal with Cincinnati much akin to the one we made with the Dodgers in '12, only put us in the Dodger's shoes.

Ask for Votto, add to the package for Chapman and give up 3 or 4 quality prospects. If we are talking only prospects, not our MLB talent (Betts, Bogaerts, Swihart, Vazquez, E-Rod) I could stomach a package deal if they'd take on Sandoval and we pay a good chunk of his deal off.

papipapsmanny
08-08-2015, 12:32 PM
I'd keep Hanley. Sandoval is the one that has to go or Porcello

RedSoxtober
08-08-2015, 05:14 PM
I think Boston is in a situation where they have to use there farm system not just to acquire pitching, but to bail themselves out of bad contracts.
I agree to a point. Speier wrote a good article for the Globe that I quoted somewhere around here that showed the results of teams with the #1 prospect ranking. Often enough the value of those top prospects was in their trade value. I certainly won't die if we deal some well regarded kid(s) in order to get rid of a bad contract. Another possibility that I've suggested is that we solve the Panda Problem by simply sitting him and let AAA/AAAA kids take his place for a fraction of the price.


One scenario is knocking on the Padres door (the other team in the bidding war for Sandoval last winter) and perhaps taking on there stiff contracts after this season:

- Jedd Gyorko - 5 years, $28 mil while buying out his 6th year option at $1 mil.
- Craig Kimbrel - 3 years, $37 mil.
The Padres are a decent place to turn but I'm not sure SDP would consider Kimbrel a bad contract. He seemed to be the most coveted name at the deadline. Maybe the other Upton fits the mold better?

FanGraphs suggested Sandoval, Marrero, and JBJ for Shields as a middle ground of both swapping contracts and swapping prospects. Shields results exceed his perihperals so it's not quite the slam dunk it seems.


... Another scenario is swapping bad contracts. Albert Pujols is the only one I'd consider who would actually have a position to play while still being valuable offensively. Whether the Angels would consider that swap is anyone's guess. He has a cap hit of $24 million per after this season with 6 years remaining.
A contract swap like this might be the best bet but I can't find a team with a need/opening at 3B who also has a bad contract. Maybe convince PHI to try him at 1B and take back Howard? At least that deal expires sooner.

papipapsmanny
08-08-2015, 07:51 PM
I broached the subject of Pujols. I think I would only do that if we traded both Porcello and Sandoval for him.

His contract is backloaded, but if he may be capable of averaging a 2+ WAR for the remainder of his contract. And just slide him to the DH role when Ortiz leaves.

They may do that. The contracts in guarantees are almost the same, in fact the Angels would save themselves about 8 million dollars or so over the long run in terms of what is paid out, we create about 15 million more dollars on average to use over the next 5 years....

theGhost-isGone
08-08-2015, 08:48 PM
I broached the subject of Pujols. I think I would only do that if we traded both Porcello and Sandoval for him.

His contract is backloaded, but if he may be capable of averaging a 2+ WAR for the remainder of his contract. And just slide him to the DH role when Ortiz leaves.

They may do that. The contracts in guarantees are almost the same, in fact the Angels would save themselves about 8 million dollars or so over the long run in terms of what is paid out, we create about 15 million more dollars on average to use over the next 5 years....

That sounds reasonable. I'd prefer Votto with Ramirez sliding into the DH role, but that's not a bad option for unloading Sandoval and Porcello both.

maplecitymadman
08-09-2015, 12:40 AM
No one in there right mind is going to take Han Ram, Sandoval, or Porcello's contracts. We are stuck with them. Keep the kids and build around them. Face it Red Sox Nation, these contracts have screwed us for several years to come.

Bo Sox Fan
08-09-2015, 12:06 PM
No one in there right mind is going to take Han Ram, Sandoval, or Porcello's contracts. We are stuck with them. Keep the kids and build around them. Face it Red Sox Nation, these contracts have screwed us for several years to come.

The same was said about Carl Crawford and Josh Beckett until the Dodgers came knocking. So...

Corey
08-09-2015, 03:56 PM
The same was said about Carl Crawford and Josh Beckett until the Dodgers came knocking. So...

And we had to toss in a pretty great player to make that work. Who are you tossing in to get rid of them?

A-Gon was a 6 WAR player in 2011 and we packaged them the next year. Who do we have that you'd like to include in something like that?

Bo Sox Fan
08-09-2015, 04:37 PM
And we had to toss in a pretty great player to make that work. Who are you tossing in to get rid of them?

A-Gon was a 6 WAR player in 2011 and we packaged them the next year. Who do we have that you'd like to include in something like that?

Pedroia and his team friendly contract fits the bill. Betts, Holt and eventually Moncada are all capable of replacing him.

All he does around here anymore is sit on the DL with Buchholz.

maplecitymadman
08-09-2015, 06:56 PM
The same was said about Carl Crawford and Josh Beckett until the Dodgers came knocking. So...

And how well did that deal work out for the Dodgers. Face it, we`re screwed for several years.

Bo Sox Fan
08-09-2015, 07:28 PM
And how well did that deal work out for the Dodgers. Face it, we`re screwed for several years.

Well they've won there division every year since meaning they haven't missed the playoffs but I guess that doesn't count.

The Red Sox are far from screwed with the resources they have in prospects and money to throw around this winter. I just question the people in charge putting this roster together. The GM in particular.

RedSoxtober
08-09-2015, 07:52 PM
Pedroia and his team friendly contract fits the bill. Betts, Holt and eventually Moncada are all capable of replacing him.

All he does around here anymore is sit on the DL with Buchholz.

Wait, you think that Pedroia does nothing but sit around on the DL but that somehow qualifies him as a player like A-Gon who would convince the Dodgers to take one or two bad contracts? That doesn't make sense. He's either attractive enough to make the deal happen (hence not on the DL that much) or he's not contributing (and won't make the deal happen).

With his defense and base running slipping this year it's unlikely that teams would find his contract (just under $14M AAV) very team friendly.

MG956
08-10-2015, 02:15 PM
Most folks seemed to consider HanRam a decent signing during the offseason. Indeed, he's generally viewed as the most acceptable of the three $20M-ish contracts given out between the end of last season and the Opening Day 2015. I've probably been in that boat but consider him the best trade target for the offseason primarily because the allure of his offense could attract a team that could hide his defense (e.g., AL team with a DH opening). I think he could attract suitors and probably a decent return if the Sox would subsidize his contract.

There was an acknowledgement, at least by -Lav-, that things could go a bit wrong if he comes in discontent or unmotivated. Perhaps that's led to this...

Alex Speier

Thoughts? Is this just the disinterest of a productive player during a terrible team season? Should he be salvaged as part of the fix for 2016 or dealt for pieces of the puzzle?

There has been way too much focus placed on Hanley. This entire team blows and it isn't fair to evaluate his performance thus far as if that is all there is. When this team clicks you want him here. So Hanley stays!

We need to get rid of Sandoval, and that is all we need to get rid of. It will cost us a good piece to package with him & probably have to eat some contract, but he has to go.

If there is a god the good piece will be Buchholz, but we aren't that lucky. Cafardo rumored that we would be a good fit to trade Sandoval with the Padres for James Shields. How awesome would that be?

Regardless, you take Sandoval out and we can build a damn good team with the pieces & budget we have left.

RedSoxtober
08-10-2015, 07:00 PM
There has been way too much focus placed on Hanley. This entire team blows and it isn't fair to evaluate his performance thus far as if that is all there is. When this team clicks you want him here. So Hanley stays!
If you read my thread-starter the basic premise is that HanRam was the most tradeable of the contracts. It's my position that the $20M-ish/4+yr deals are going to hurt us long term (with a side dose of HanRam+Panda together being a big mistake). As the days have gone it you've at least got to acknowledge that HanRam's performance has been terrible and even the return on dealing him may not be very good. Selling low on him could be a mistake; I won't disagree that it could be disappointing to see him mash elsewhere but I'd still take the flexibility.


Regardless, you take Sandoval out and we can build a damn good team with the pieces & budget we have left.

I don't understand how the "whole team blows" and yet removing Sandoval suddenly makes everything better. I certainly want him gone but he's just a part of the problem.

maplecitymadman
08-10-2015, 07:21 PM
Well they've won there division every year since meaning they haven't missed the playoffs but I guess that doesn't count.

The Red Sox are far from screwed with the resources they have in prospects and money to throw around this winter. I just question the people in charge putting this roster together. The GM in particular.

This team is being run by Bill James and his sabermetrics team. How they have a job boggles my mind. We can't trade any of the kids, they are our future. Besides, we would have to package 3 or 4 of our kids to obtain anything of value. (that includes all of the kids on our major league roster right now) Face it, we are going to march out Hanley in LF and Sandoval at 3rd next year. We're screwed!

ruckus16969
08-12-2015, 12:22 PM
i think HanRam got to stay. Would love to slide him into that DH role would be so perfect for him.

I'd try to pawn off Pablo to the Padres for Shields as a bad contract swap. Or maybe spin him off to the Mets even if we have to pay a good chunk.

I don't know why BC signed him in the 1st place. There has got to be some teams that would be willing to give him a shot.

RedSoxtober
08-12-2015, 02:00 PM
I'd try to pawn off Pablo to the Padres for Shields as a bad contract swap. Or maybe spin him off to the Mets even if we have to pay a good chunk.

There's absolutely no incentive for the Mets to take Panda with Wright earning $20M/yr to sometimes play 3B and Duda actually putting up good numbers at 1B.

ruckus16969
08-12-2015, 04:02 PM
Forgot about Wright

Shaiza
08-13-2015, 02:12 PM
i think HanRam got to stay. Would love to slide him into that DH role would be so perfect for him.

I'd try to pawn off Pablo to the Padres for Shields as a bad contract swap. Or maybe spin him off to the Mets even if we have to pay a good chunk.

I don't know why BC signed him in the 1st place. There has got to be some teams that would be willing to give him a shot.

My preference would have been Headley but I'm not sure if he ever wanted to leave New York.

I think the signing made sense at the time, but the contract didn't. Still, he was under 30 and had a tremendous postseason. I guess you can argue from both sides.

I definitely think there is a deal to be made with the Padres involving Shields' contract. I like the club option for the 4th year too. Hopefully Ben explores this.

ruckus16969
08-14-2015, 12:45 AM
Padres for shields or Rockies for Cargo either way win win for us. We got to get creative

bagwell368
08-17-2015, 08:48 AM
I didn't read all the posts... my plan is:

1. Ramirez to DH
2. Ortiz out - via retirement, trade or DFA.
3. Fatty stays at 3B
4. Keep Porcello, hire a shrink
5. Deal Pedroia for kids and/or dump a contract with him and still get a kid or two
6. Move Betts to 2B (scouting reports said he was a GG 2B in the making)
7. Use JBJ in CF

bagwell368
08-17-2015, 08:53 AM
This team is being run by Bill James and his sabermetrics team.

Hardly. Every organization uses sabermetrics, and when JH bought the team he put the Sox at or near the apex of that movement. 3 WS titles since that time isn't enough for you?

I've been a fan since 1966, it should be more than good enough for anybody. I'm much happier myself that LL is out, his effect on the Sox was far more pernicious than Bill James ever was or ever could be.