PDA

View Full Version : Lebron is not a #1 option....



ghettosean
07-31-2015, 01:00 PM
Gilbert Arena is the most recent to critique Lebron saying on his instagram that Lebron is not a #1 option on a team and basically he will always need a go to guy like Wade or Kyrie because he's not a pure scorer.

Article regarding instagram is below and also a debate on ESPN first take:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2535319-gilbert-arenas-critiques-lebron-james-on-instagram-says-hes-not-a-no-1-option

http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=espn:13353122


Thoughts?




KINGJAMES.....this person comes around once in a blue moon...a man whos so physically gifted he could walk into any sport and be a HOF'ER off his natural (God given ability) last person who was this gifted in sports might have been #BOJackson...LET'S take away EVERY STAT and start from scratch..#NATURAL gifts...6-8..275..44 inch vert...once at top speed can't be stopped...vision like magic johnson..a natural #LEFTY who plays basketball as a righty....him stepping on a nba floor with no effort stats are 25 6 7...now his WEAKNESSES he had to work on to be the G.O.A.T...James is more like a train then a cheetah in movement.. his first 2 steps aren't very powerful so this hurt him on iso's and the ability to blow pass players from standstill position...hints why he's at the point he needs to be moving at all time so when he decides to attack he's already in full motion...he doesnt change direction well becuz he doesn't bend much he plays str8 up and down like #jkidd did which limits him from cross overs and spinning...James isn't a #1 option..and yes I (didn't stutter) he lacks #selfishness so he will always need a go to guy like wade was or kyrie.. he lacks what jordan and kobe were..great 1 on 1 players... he needs a pure scorer beside him so he can carry the TEAM load...he gets bashed alot by media becuz he doesn't take over like #MJ or #KB but #LBJ is MAGIC with Jordan like athleticism..so he walks into stats without trying and when forced he will give u 41 12 8...the finals was the first time in his career he was physically pushed to the limit becuz he had no one to defur to...when players like magic,Barkley and analysis bash him I cringe...like u ppl have no idea what he could do if he had (1) season just 1 selfish season like kobe did in 2005-06 he will avg 40+ 11 9 and no one could do s--t about it...it's sad the world wont get to see Who I'm talking about becuz his legacy is built on winning...if u doubt what I'm saying..look at every game he was pissed off and was challenged....this man could be the second best 3rd for sure player to ever play when it's all said and done around 2020+and he didn't even tap into his ability to be GREATEST..

tredigs
07-31-2015, 01:07 PM
Well, he's lead his team in points and field goal attempts 100% of his seasons. Pretty sure that constitutes a #1 option.

NYKnickFanatic
07-31-2015, 01:10 PM
pfft

Tony_Starks
07-31-2015, 01:15 PM
He's definitely a #1 option, if anybody should know that it's Agent Zero from those classic playoff battles they had.

What he is not is a closer, that's where the D Wades, Ray Allens, and now Kyrie's of the world come in to play.....

xnick5757
07-31-2015, 01:18 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WtNHuqHWefU

ManRam
07-31-2015, 01:24 PM
lebron may or may not be a lot of things, but a #1 option is literally something he has undeniably been every single season he's played in the nba.

he likes to pass. passing is arguably his greatest strength (he's one of the 3 best in the league IMO). he'd rather get the right shot for a teammate than take a bad shot of his own. doesn't mean he's not a #1 option. just means he's not JUST a scorer.


gilbert needs to scrap instragram and bring back his near-GOAT twitter tho. much better when limited to the 140.

bucketss
07-31-2015, 01:29 PM
gilbert says hes not a 1# because hes not selfish enough, not because ability.
lebron is magic with jordan athleticism
can put up 25 5 5 in his sleep, but will drop 40 if forced
could drop 40 11 9 in a season if he had one selfish season, like kobe back in 2005/2006 and no one could anything about it, gilbert is sad we will never see this because lebrons legacy is built on winning
says to look at games where lebron plays mad to see what hes talking about.
says lebron can be 2nd or 3rd greatest of all time when its all done, pretty much without tapping in into his full potential.


i wonder how much of his haters agree with all this?

tredigs
07-31-2015, 01:37 PM
gilbert says hes not a 1# because hes not selfish enough, not because ability.
lebron is magic with jordan athleticism
can put up 25 5 5 in his sleep, but will drop 40 if forced
could drop 40 11 9 in a season if he had one selfish season, like kobe back in 2005/2006 and no one could anything about it, gilbert is sad we will never see this because lebrons legacy is built on winning
says to look at games where lebron plays mad to see what hes talking about.
says lebron can be 2nd or 3rd greatest of all time when its all done, pretty much without tapping in into his full potential.


i wonder how much of his haters agree with all this?

40/11/9? Lmfao. Buckets dude, you're on another level with your LBJ worship.

TheIlladelph16
07-31-2015, 01:38 PM
I'm not sure "critique" is the right word here OP. His post is widely praising Lebron.

bucketss
07-31-2015, 01:40 PM
40/11/9? Lmfao. Buckets dude, you're on another level with your LBJ worship.

i didn't say that, Gilbert did.

tredigs
07-31-2015, 01:45 PM
i didn't say that, Gilbert did.

OH, he did? I missed that then. Apologies. I've seen some wild Lebron posts from you so I figured that was another.

To be clear, I hope everyone understands there's no world where LBJ could average 40/11/9 in an NBA season without literally that being his sole prerogative and shattering the Usage% record to his teams detriment.

Vee-Rex
07-31-2015, 01:53 PM
Not a fan of Lebron but wow... talk about hating.

LBJ is a year off the most efficient season of his career. 27/7/6 on 56% FG and a .649 TS%

Last year he regressed a little. Here's how his regression looked: 25/6/7 49% FG and a .577 TS%

For anyone to even suggest he's not a first option is ludicrous. Arenas is still butthurt over his Wizards getting dominated by LBJ years ago.

ghettosean
07-31-2015, 01:56 PM
Well, he's lead his team in points and field goal attempts 100% of his seasons. Pretty sure that constitutes a #1 option.

I agree with that as well as being the best player in basketball would probably constitute you as a #1 option. I think Gilbert was probably referring to more of Lebron taking over in crunch/clutch situations than really being a #1 option.

WaDe03
07-31-2015, 01:59 PM
People are taking this the wrong way. You need to read the article before you comment. He was pretty much on LeBrons nuts in the whole post other than the #1 option saying he lacks the killer instinct. He says if he had it he would be the GOAT.

tredigs
07-31-2015, 02:00 PM
I agree with that as well as being the best player in basketball would probably constitute you as a #1 option. I think Gilbert was probably referring to more of Lebron taking over in crunch/clutch situations than really being a #1 option.

Agreed. I'm guessing that he was trying to say that Lebron did not have a "killer instinct" and needs that guy on his team to win (I don't necessarily agree there, tho' it helps him for sure), but worded his thoughts poorly.

@Vee-Rex, interesting. You say you don't like Lebron, but you're a Cavs fan right? Still harboring resentment from when he left and hedging if he does it again?

Hawkeye15
07-31-2015, 02:02 PM
LeBron's 4th quarter clutch/results actually are elite haha

love that he gets that rep

tredigs
07-31-2015, 02:04 PM
People are taking this the wrong way. You need to read the article before you comment. He was pretty much on LeBrons nuts in the whole post other than the #1 option saying he lacks the killer instinct. He says if he had it he would be the GOAT.

It's actually a pretty big shot at Lebron's character to be honest. Gilbert's saying that Lebron does not have the fortitude to be the best, despite owning all the athletic ability and talent to be just that.


LeBron's 4th quarter clutch/results actually are elite haha

love that he gets that rep
They are, agreed. And we've seen him perform in that scenario countless times, but we've also seen him very quiet in that situation a number of times. And when you're comparing to the others in the basketball pantheon, there's not much room for error.

kdspurman
07-31-2015, 02:06 PM
i thought Gilberts takes were pretty solid for the most part tbh. wasnt expecting that

Scoots
07-31-2015, 02:10 PM
LeBron's overall game is so great he can fool people into thinking he's not a #1 option that's all.

Hawkeye15
07-31-2015, 02:55 PM
It's actually a pretty big shot at Lebron's character to be honest. Gilbert's saying that Lebron does not have the fortitude to be the best, despite owning all the athletic ability and talent to be just that.


They are, agreed. And we've seen him perform in that scenario countless times, but we've also seen him very quiet in that situation a number of times. And when you're comparing to the others in the basketball pantheon, there's not much room for error.

like who? Jordan was the only one I think was clearly just elite the majority of the time, even though if you were alive back then, you remember his commercial where he said, "I have missed ___ chances to win the game". I can't remember, but it was plenty. We have already covered Kobe's effectiveness in tight games and how the Lakers offense gets pretty bad in tight games down the stretch statistically. Who else are we talking about?

LakersIn5
07-31-2015, 03:15 PM
Not a fan of Lebron but wow... talk about hating.

LBJ is a year off the most efficient season of his career. 27/7/6 on 56% FG and a .649 TS%

Last year he regressed a little. Here's how his regression looked: 25/6/7 49% FG and a .577 TS%

For anyone to even suggest he's not a first option is ludicrous. Arenas is still butthurt over his Wizards getting dominated by LBJ years ago.

Did you even read arenas' whole post?or you just reas the title without even reading anything else? Lol. For the most part arenas was actually dick riding lebron

Tony_Starks
07-31-2015, 03:40 PM
People are taking this the wrong way. You need to read the article before you comment. He was pretty much on LeBrons nuts in the whole post other than the #1 option saying he lacks the killer instinct. He says if he had it he would be the GOAT.


After actually reading the article you are right, there was no hate at all. He actually sized up Lebrons game fairly well and was very complimentary.

He's not saying anything that anyone objective about Lebrons game doesn't know already. It's always been unfair to compare him to Kobe or MJ that's not his game, not his mentality. That's like trying to compare Iverson to Steve Nash.

Vee-Rex
07-31-2015, 03:46 PM
Agreed. I'm guessing that he was trying to say that Lebron did not have a "killer instinct" and needs that guy on his team to win (I don't necessarily agree there, tho' it helps him for sure), but worded his thoughts poorly.

@Vee-Rex, interesting. You say you don't like Lebron, but you're a Cavs fan right? Still harboring resentment from when he left and hedging if he does it again?

Cavs fan first and foremost.

I don't like LeBron because of how he left, as well as his general attitude. He acts like he's the best ever, but he whines like a 2 year old. Taking to twitter to call out Kevin Love (which was just ugh), his treatment of David Blatt, holding out to give TT contract some leverage, among a billion other things are why I'm not a fan.

Vee-Rex
07-31-2015, 04:00 PM
Did you even read arenas' whole post?or you just reas the title without even reading anything else? Lol. For the most part arenas was actually dick riding lebron

To be honest, if he posted intelligibly, I'd have understood it better.

There's a lot of various interpretations going on because the dude wasn't completely clear.

Vee-Rex
07-31-2015, 04:04 PM
It's actually a pretty big shot at Lebron's character to be honest. Gilbert's saying that Lebron does not have the fortitude to be the best, despite owning all the athletic ability and talent to be just that.


They are, agreed. And we've seen him perform in that scenario countless times, but we've also seen him very quiet in that situation a number of times. And when you're comparing to the others in the basketball pantheon, there's not much room for error.

Exactly. It's like Arenas is trying to bash LeBron while trying not to bash him.

krazylegz
07-31-2015, 04:09 PM
we talking bout this gilbert arenas?? http://nypost.com/2010/01/01/wizards-gilbert-arenas-and-javaris-crittenton-pull-pistols-on-each-other/.....ummmm k

tredigs
07-31-2015, 04:20 PM
Cavs fan first and foremost.

I don't like LeBron because of how he left, as well as his general attitude. He acts like he's the best ever, but he whines like a 2 year old. Taking to twitter to call out Kevin Love (which was just ugh), his treatment of David Blatt, holding out to give TT contract some leverage, among a billion other things are why I'm not a fan.

Yep, I respect your take there. I'm a fan of his game, but he lost me as a fan of him 4 or 5 years ago. He's not a bad guy by any means, but he's not a person I particularly respect.

like who? Jordan was the only one I think was clearly just elite the majority of the time, even though if you were alive back then, you remember his commercial where he said, "I have missed ___ chances to win the game". I can't remember, but it was plenty. We have already covered Kobe's effectiveness in tight games and how the Lakers offense gets pretty bad in tight games down the stretch statistically. Who else are we talking about?

It's his effort, not the amount of shots he missed. He shot 39% in the Finals and couldn't hit a perimeter shot throughout the entire 2 months of the playoffs with any consistency (despite being left wide open on them), but he never stopped trying (offensively at least). And for that reason he got respect in this run. In other pivotal playoff series (Boston, Dallas), that has not been the case. And those apathetic performances are where he has earned his reputation as a spotty performer when all the chips are on the line. By and large he's awesome, but you won't find a series where Magic, Bird or Jordan disappeared. Struggled maybe, but never went ghost.

JasonJohnHorn
07-31-2015, 04:46 PM
If you put Arenas comments into full context, you'll see his claim that James is not a 'number 1' option is in part a polemic. He is not, according to Arenas, like Jordan in that he does not have that lightning quick first step. But Arenas clearly says LBJ is one of the best all time, like top 3, so if you are top three and not a #1 option, then... I guess there have only been 1 or 2 number one options.

LBJ took the Cavs to the finals TWICE without a better option on the court than him. And yes, in Miami he had Wade, but...

You know what... fawk this. This is a stupid conversation. LBJ is quantifiably a #1 option. He is the guy you want to have with the ball in his hands on almost every single play. Period.

ghettosean
07-31-2015, 05:40 PM
If you put Arenas comments into full context, you'll see his claim that James is not a 'number 1' option is in part a polemic. He is not, according to Arenas, like Jordan in that he does not have that lightning quick first step. But Arenas clearly says LBJ is one of the best all time, like top 3, so if you are top three and not a #1 option, then... I guess there have only been 1 or 2 number one options.

LBJ took the Cavs to the finals TWICE without a better option on the court than him. And yes, in Miami he had Wade, but...

You know what... fawk this. This is a stupid conversation. LBJ is quantifiably a #1 option. He is the guy you want to have with the ball in his hands on almost every single play. Period.

Gilbert never said anything about him being top 3 all time not really much of what you are saying here? He said if he worked on his weaknesses he could have been the GOAT if that's what you meant...

Can you quote what you are talking about from his instagram where he clearly said this?

Bostonjorge
07-31-2015, 05:59 PM
Agent zero > James

mngopher35
07-31-2015, 05:59 PM
Gilbert never said anything about him being top 3 all time not really much of what you are saying here? He said if he worked on his weaknesses he could have been the GOAT if that's what you meant...

Can you quote what you are talking about from his instagram where he clearly said this?

Just read the last part of your initial post again...

"this man could be the second best 3rd for sure player to ever play when it's all said and done around 2020"

naps
07-31-2015, 06:53 PM
Not a fan of Lebron

Lol. You created your account here in 2009 and yet I haven't seen you post here at all past 5 years. You have been posting here regularly since LeBron went back to Cleveland. Coincidence? LOL

ghettosean
07-31-2015, 07:21 PM
Gilbert never said anything about him being top 3 all time not really much of what you are saying here? He said if he worked on his weaknesses he could have been the GOAT if that's what you meant...

Can you quote what you are talking about from his instagram where he clearly said this?

Just read the last part of your initial post again...

"this man could be the second best 3rd for sure player to ever play when it's all said and done around 2020"

Yes "COULD" be is just like i said in the post you quoted me in above he never said he is as Jason stated.

More-Than-Most
07-31-2015, 07:52 PM
40/11/9? Lmfao. Buckets dude, you're on another level with your LBJ worship.

i have said forever he could average 40 if he wanted to and he easily could... 40-11-9 is a bit much though... 40-7-7 is more realistic.

WaDe03
07-31-2015, 08:01 PM
i have said forever he could average 40 if he wanted to and he easily could... 40-11-9 is a bit much though... 40-7-7 is more realistic.

Yea he for sure could. Idk why people are arguing that. He's not even known as a scorer and averages like 27 on his career.

LeBron-27 PPG
Durant-27 PPG
Melo-25PPG
Wade-24PPG (because I'm a Wade fan and wanted to throw him in there)

Durant and Melo are known as scorers. LeBron and Wade are not.

mngopher35
07-31-2015, 08:13 PM
Yes "COULD" be is just like i said in the post you quoted me in above he never said he is as Jason stated.

Jason's post said Arenas still has him as an all time great, LIKE top 3. Arenas says could be 2nd best, 3rd for sure.

Maybe you are nit picking but it literally says "3rd for sure" in the post so even then it's hard to say without knowing exactly what that meant.

bucketss
07-31-2015, 08:21 PM
Yes "COULD" be is just like i said in the post you quoted me in above he never said he is as Jason stated.

"this man could be the second best 3rd for sure player to ever play when it's all said and done around 2020+and he didn't even tap into his ability to be GREATEST.."

hes pretty much saying he could be top 3 all time without even trying,

tredigs
07-31-2015, 08:27 PM
i have said forever he could average 40 if he wanted to and he easily could... 40-11-9 is a bit much though... 40-7-7 is more realistic.

40/11/9 reminds me of IKnowHoops making the thread asking if he could average a triple-double back in Cleveland. I correctly asserted that he was delusional, and that there's a very good chance he has 0 triple doubles (I think he snuck 1 in). 40/11/9 is that, but with 3x the delusion.

40 alone? I guess if he burnt himself out in the reg season by playing 43 mpg, averaged 30 attempts a night and took a few weeks off for rest, sure. But in reality? No.

More-Than-Most
07-31-2015, 08:31 PM
I also think James could avg a triple double for the season if he wanted to... he proved that against good teams in the playoffs to a point... over the long season he would need extra rest but he could avg a triple double but his points would probably drop some... i could easily see James avg 23-10-10 for the year :shrug:

tredigs
07-31-2015, 08:43 PM
I also think James could avg a triple double for the season if he wanted to... he proved that against good teams in the playoffs to a point... over the long season he would need extra rest but he could avg a triple double but his points would probably drop some... i could easily see James avg 23-10-10 for the year :shrug:

Again, no, he absolutely couldn't. You're saying a guy who has 10 reg season triple doubles in the last 5 seasons combined could average that for a season. He was playing 46 MPG in the Finals and his Usage% was >40%. That is astronomically historically high (nearly 20% higher than the highest reg season average of his career... which was a season where he lead the NBA in Usage), and his shooting was in the dumpster as a result. He was also clearly playing at an unsustainable level. You think he could keep up anything close to that for even 2 months straight? Lmfao. Come on, he'd be dead well before the ASB.

He averaged 33 attempts a night in that series and was not even close to 40 PPG btw.

Jamiecballer
07-31-2015, 08:45 PM
Well he did say "because he's not selfish" so he's not wrong

Tony_Starks
07-31-2015, 09:05 PM
I also think James could avg a triple double for the season if he wanted to... he proved that against good teams in the playoffs to a point... over the long season he would need extra rest but he could avg a triple double but his points would probably drop some... i could easily see James avg 23-10-10 for the year :shrug:


So he intentionally goes out of his way NOT to stack up triple doubles? How does he do that, since it would be so easy to do "if he wanted to?"

Does he check his stats at halftime and say whoa I'm pretty close, then make a concerted effort to not make assists or grab boards? Does he have maybe a assistant coach on the sideline warn him if he's on a triple double pace?

You know what.... I actually find his ability to restrict himself from getting a triple double in the midst of a competitive game more impressive than averaging one.

That takes super skill and discipline!

kdspurman
07-31-2015, 09:12 PM
Again, no, he absolutely couldn't. You're saying a guy who has 10 reg season triple doubles in the last 5 seasons combined could average that for a season. He was playing 46 MPG in the Finals and his Usage% was >40%. That is astronomically historically high (nearly 20% higher than the highest reg season average of his career... which was a season where he lead the NBA in Usage), and his shooting was in the dumpster as a result. He was also clearly playing at an unsustainable level. You think he could keep up anything close to that for even 2 months straight? Lmfao. Come on, he'd be dead well before the ASB.

He averaged 33 attempts a night in that series and was not even close to 40 PPG btw.

Yea.. Idk how anyone thinks he could do it over the course of a whole season. For a series or post season run, maaaybe

tredigs
07-31-2015, 09:54 PM
Yea.. Idk how anyone thinks he could do it over the course of a whole season. For a series or post season run, maaaybe

Lol seriously. Taking a 10 second glimpse at his game logs, just look at his first game of the year against the Knicks last season. He was just off his mark, had 8 TO's, went 5-15 and scored just 15 points in 43 minutes (wasn't distributing either, just 4 assists). 2 games later against Portland his shot is off again, and after shooting 33% in 35 minutes Blatt pulls him for the game due to Cle being blown out. These games happen. And now 3 games into the season (already averaging 40 MPG) Lebron now needs to average 60/14/15 over the next three games in order to maintain 40 points and/or a triple double. Fanboys truly don't understand how ridiculous some of the things they postulate about 'Bron are.

slashsnake
08-01-2015, 12:41 AM
Lebron isn't a #1 option... how many seasons did he not lead his team in scoring?

I mean we just saw the finals with no one else, with some great wing defenders and he scored 36 a game. The season where he had the least help was probably the year where Big Z at 14 a game was his only reliable #2, and he led the league in scoring.

I get that he doesn't look as comfortable putting up shots as a guy like Melo or Durant... He's got a lot of the distributor mindset... But to say the 3rd leading scorer in NBA history in points per game isn't a good #1 option. I mean this is a guy who hoisted an NBA championship just a couple years ago over the spurs closing them out with 37 points while Bosh, Wade, and Ray Allen COMBINED for 23 in that game.

If you can win an NBA championship over a team like the spurs being the #1 option, no offense, but I think you are doing it just fine.

kobe4thewinbang
08-01-2015, 01:33 AM
Gilbert Arenas should be in a psych ward due to his past and most recent antics with this further proving his insanity. And he's still rich, fml.

rocket
08-01-2015, 01:42 AM
Very interesting point man

ink
08-01-2015, 02:59 AM
NBA forum never fails to disappoint. What a silly thread.

ghettosean
08-01-2015, 05:56 AM
NBA forum never fails to disappoint. What a silly thread.

What other news is there it's the off season, trades are pretty much done and summer league is over. Not a big fan of posts like this if you don't like the article/info/thread just ignore it.

slashsnake
08-01-2015, 07:39 AM
Yea he for sure could. Idk why people are arguing that. He's not even known as a scorer and averages like 27 on his career.

LeBron-27 PPG
Durant-27 PPG
Melo-25PPG
Wade-24PPG (because I'm a Wade fan and wanted to throw him in there)

Durant and Melo are known as scorers. LeBron and Wade are not.

I think one of the reasons is how they score. Take a couple polar opposites, Duncan and Howard. Duncan has the moves, the bank shot, etc.. Dwight mostly relies on strength and athleticism. Both... 23 point a game scorers in their prime and just under 20 a game for their careers.

Melo isn't overly athletic, usually below the rim, but has a game that I think based more on skill than physical ability. A nice step back, a nice midrange shot, shifty moves, a decent back to the basket game. Lebron looks more based on speed and strength. He can beat you all down the court, he can outrun any small forward and outpower anyone as quick as he is. If you played Melo 1 on 1 he'd make you look dumb with his moves. Lebron would make you look like you are a child.

Melo and Durant make the difficult shot or move look easy... Lebron and Wade take the easy shot more often...

Not a knock.. he's getting more of a jump shot at times, definitely better there than his first run in Cleveland.. more of a post up game, and look at some of the great scorers and that's what they did as their careers went on. But I think Durant and Melo have scoring talent that won't really have to adjust more as their physical talent wanes. Better/Worse... ehh. Just different. Wade started to make that transition and big time move last year. He started his career getting 40% of his shots at the rim. Now barely 20%.

ghettosean
08-01-2015, 09:28 AM
Jason's post said Arenas still has him as an all time great, LIKE top 3. Arenas says could be 2nd best, 3rd for sure.

Maybe you are nit picking but it literally says "3rd for sure" in the post so even then it's hard to say without knowing exactly what that meant.

I think we are both nit picking but to add he said in 2020 he's not saying he is now. Personally I don't think the majority of NBA fans would agree or think that he's top 3 all time in the here and now as well. In 2020 maybe but well see how he finishes out his career before I confirm where I think he is all time.

Vee-Rex
08-01-2015, 10:09 AM
Lol. You created your account here in 2009 and yet I haven't seen you post here at all past 5 years. You have been posting here regularly since LeBron went back to Cleveland. Coincidence? LOL

I posted here quite a bit between 2009 and now. Mostly about Kyrie Irving and the Cavs.

Is it a coincidence that the Cavs are now a huge subject of discussion with LBJ's return? LOL, come on even 5 year olds can put that together, man. Troll more.

kdspurman
08-01-2015, 10:19 AM
i think due to the thread title, thats the only thing people are focusing (naturally I guess), but GA's whole take seems pretty fair/legit

Jayb587
08-01-2015, 11:36 AM
Most important thing gilbert said was LBJ will never reach his full potential. I wonder how the LeBron lovers feel about that. Seems like almost all the guys on the top 10 ever list except shaq squeezed all the potential out of their god given talents. DID LBJ??????

mngopher35
08-01-2015, 02:04 PM
I think we are both nit picking but to add he said in 2020 he's not saying he is now. Personally I don't think the majority of NBA fans would agree or think that he's top 3 all time in the here and now as well. In 2020 maybe but well see how he finishes out his career before I confirm where I think he is all time.

This has nothing to do with your personal opinion or others outside of Arenas. I am not nit-picking, you called him out and were wrong to do so. Gilbert literally says "3rd for sure" and Jason didn't even take it that far in his reply to the op.

Jason was adding context to the OP/title since it really isn't the whole story of what Arenas is trying to say. While Arenas did say Lebron wasn't a number 1 option he explains it by saying its because he is Magic like and unselfish and not a Jordan/Kobe mindset of great 1v1 play. While I disagree with his conclusion of not being a number one option, I agree with a lot of the context behind what he is saying (as Jason was trying to point out). Lebron is one of the best all time but he doesn't have that selfish mindset. I do think he is more like a train than a cheetah. I do think he has tons of natural ability. Maybe not quite vision like Magic but still one of the best play makers out there etc.

mngopher35
08-01-2015, 02:08 PM
i think due to the thread title, thats the only thing people are focusing (naturally I guess), but GA's whole take seems pretty fair/legit

Agreed, a lot of what he is saying is true or makes sense. This always happens on PSD though, someone makes a thread focusing on a small part of what someone says without looking at the context (and people come in without reading the whole thing, just the title).

FlashBolt
08-01-2015, 03:00 PM
I don't see a single negative thing about LeBron here other than his misrepresentation of what a 1st option player is. I think he's confusing that with who's the better scorer; which is a very tricky issue when it comes to LeBron. He can score when he wants but he prefers to pass. His scoring ability (PPG) is second to Jordan in the modern era (not counting the highly inflated Wilt/Baylor numbers). Granted, that will drop as his career progresses but this presently, he's still not known as a scorer. That's a very scary thought that someone who is 2nd in all-time PPG isn't even a scorer. I'll be the first to admit here, LeBron does lack that desire to absolutely victimize other players. You see this on how he approaches the media and his friendly persona. He has had a strict business mindset when it comes to basketball after winning those championships. I don't think he cares whether he wins more or not but at this point, it's about bringing Cleveland a ring just for Ohio and securing himself financially for the next role. But that instinct that Kobe/Jordan had doesn't exactly mean it doesn't have any cons as well. You're seeing that right now with how no one wants to play with Kobe. Yes he is tough but that brushes off on others erroneously. We don't hear much about Jordan other than a few nicks here and there during his time but if social media of this caliber existed during his time, it would be a much different Michael Jordan.

Jayb587
08-01-2015, 03:51 PM
That lack of killer instinct topped him from being the GOAT. Jordan or Kobe with that body, speed, and strenght and OMG

FlashBolt
08-01-2015, 03:59 PM
That lack of killer instict stopped him from being the GOAT. Jordan or Kobe with that body, speed, and strenght and OMG

Shut up with that killer instinct fairy tale. That killer instinct was only available when they were winning. It somehow was never mentioned when they lost. Everybody has a killer instinct but they show it in different ways. I watch as many OKC games as I possibly can (80% of them). You can not for one second tell me that Westbrook is more competitive in KD. They may show it in a different way (Russell is more hardheaded and physical) but KD is more calm with it. What you are talking about is a distinct difference in personality. Kobe/Jordan were tough to deal with while James has a more likeable stature. Just because a player puts a mean face on doesn't mean they have more of a killer instinct than the player next to them. Actually, Jordan/Kobe don't have that body/speed/strength... so that is something FACTUAL. Just like James doesn't have their personality, he has his own: People want to PLAY with him. I have yet to hear about a player not wanting to play with LeBron because of LeBron. You hear countless reports of players not wanting to play with Kobe to the point where you will become shocked if someone does. We may not hear about players not wanting to play with Jordan presently but that's because social media wasn't as huge back then. So now, I think you get what you get with certain players and each of them has their own pros/cons. Would I like it if James had a more strict approach? Certainly, but that brushes potential teammates the wrong way -- which is certainly not something you want to do. This isn't like James is that friendly likeable guy who just jokes around like Dwight. The biggest difference between James/Kobe is the fact that James doesn't treat basketball like it is his life whereas Kobe does. I don't blame either one.

bucketss
08-01-2015, 05:53 PM
That lack of killer instinct topped him from being the GOAT. Jordan or Kobe with that body, speed, and strenght and OMG

its pretty cool though, without a "killer instinct" he will still go down as top 5 all time. just shows how much more talented he is in comparison to other greats.

ghettosean
08-01-2015, 06:31 PM
This has nothing to do with your personal opinion or others outside of Arenas. I am not nit-picking, you called him out and were wrong to do so. Gilbert literally says "3rd for sure" and Jason didn't even take it that far in his reply to the op.

Jason was adding context to the OP/title since it really isn't the whole story of what Arenas is trying to say. While Arenas did say Lebron wasn't a number 1 option he explains it by saying its because he is Magic like and unselfish and not a Jordan/Kobe mindset of great 1v1 play. While I disagree with his conclusion of not being a number one option, I agree with a lot of the context behind what he is saying (as Jason was trying to point out). Lebron is one of the best all time but he doesn't have that selfish mindset. I do think he is more like a train than a cheetah. I do think he has tons of natural ability. Maybe not quite vision like Magic but still one of the best play makers out there etc.


First off just to deal with the bolded of what you wrote because I think you are having issues reading what the man actually wrote. There's there to read and you are just copying 3 words of the quote and saying this is what Gilbert said and you are having issues admitting you are incorrect when the full quote is on the first page/post so I'm not sure what you problem is maybe you can let me know but here is the full sentence that Gilbert wrote:



.this man could be the second best 3rd for sure player to ever play when it's all said and done around 2020+ and he didn't even tap into his ability to be GREATEST..


Like I said in my previous posts he's not talking about the here and now nor did he say in the here and now so I'm not sure what you are going on about. It's easy to sound right when you are taking a 3 word snip it from a quote "TWICE" and misdirect what a person is saying or said.

2nd I responded to your post and I'm not sure what your deal is this is a forum and everyone is free to give there personal opinions here I in no way changed the subject from what you response was I just gave my opinion as it's your opinion that I'm nit picking opposed to correcting your 3 word cut and paste from a sentence.

Chill man this is a forum don't dictate how people need to/how they should post it makes you sound super butthurt.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-01-2015, 06:40 PM
He's definitely a #1 option, if anybody should know that it's Agent Zero from those classic playoff battles they had.

What he is not is a closer, that's where the D Wades, Ray Allens, and now Kyrie's of the world come in to play.....

This close thread

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-01-2015, 06:44 PM
LeBron's 4th quarter clutch/results actually are elite haha

love that he gets that rep

Lebron has choked away way more important shots/games/series than he's closed out.

ILLUSIONIST^248
08-01-2015, 06:46 PM
Agreed. I'm guessing that he was trying to say that Lebron did not have a "killer instinct" and needs that guy on his team to win (I don't necessarily agree there, tho' it helps him for sure), but worded his thoughts poorly.

@Vee-Rex, interesting. You say you don't like Lebron, but you're a Cavs fan right? Still harboring resentment from when he left and hedging if he does it again?

Cavs fan first and foremost.

I don't like LeBron because of how he left, as well as his general attitude. He acts like he's the best ever, but he whines like a 2 year old. Taking to twitter to call out Kevin Love (which was just ugh), his treatment of David Blatt, holding out to give TT contract some leverage, among a billion other things are why I'm not a fan.

It's good to see an open minded Cavs fan. Most of Lebron fans are blind fools.

mngopher35
08-01-2015, 07:03 PM
First off just to deal with the bolded of what you wrote because I think you are having issues reading what the man actually wrote. There's there to read and you are just copying 3 words of the quote and saying this is what Gilbert said and you are having issues admitting you are incorrect when the full quote is on the first page/post so I'm not sure what you problem is maybe you can let me know but here is the full sentence that Gilbert wrote:

lol you start this thread about a single quote from his entire post, taken without the context, and then accuse me for doing the same (except in this case I am just defending another posters interpretation). If you had listened to your own advice from the start it wouldn't have happened (and you wouldn't have such poor/negative responses inside)



Like I said in my previous posts he's not talking about the here and now nor did he say in the here and now so I'm not sure what you are going on about. It's easy to sound right when you are taking a 3 word snip it from a quote "TWICE" and misdirect what a person is saying or said.

Arenas says the quote that you are pointing to claiming top 2 or 3 for Lebron by 2020 (3rd for sure is still in there even if it isn't at this second).


But Arenas clearly says LBJ is one of the best all time, like top 3


This is the quote you responded too. If someone says that by 2020 Lebron will for sure be top 3 then Jason is pretty right on in saying he considers him an all time great, like top 3 (maybe not today so it isn't EXACTLY top 3 but for sure by the end of his career according to Arenas). We are nearing the end of prime Lebron as it is.

You responded with:


Gilbert never said anything about him being top 3 all time not really much of what you are saying here?

Not only did he say something about him being top 3, he said for sure by 2020. Jason was doing a good job of adding that to the discussion as many came in, read the title, and bashed him. In reality Arenas had some decent takes but since the OP/Title obviously wasn't focused on the real context there isn't much discussion on it.


2nd I responded to your post and I'm not sure what your deal is this is a forum and everyone is free to give there personal opinions here I in no way changed the subject from what you response was I just gave my opinion as it's your opinion that I'm nit picking opposed to correcting your 3 word cut and paste from a sentence.

My deal is that when you focus on a small part of what someone is saying but ignore the general context to make a thread you shouldn't bash the people who actually read the whole thing and try to add that context. He was right on with that part you quoted and Gilbert actually had a ton to compliment Lebron about outside of just that. The biggest separation here is that his own definition of a 1st option seems to be different than others but he did explain his reasoning at least.




Chill man this is a forum don't dictate how people need to/how they should post it makes you sound super butthurt.


Completely chill. Still gonna call you out when you're wrong and trying to discredit someone who is clearly looking at the whole picture unlike yourself.

ghettosean
08-01-2015, 07:04 PM
Agreed, a lot of what he is saying is true or makes sense. This always happens on PSD though, someone makes a thread focusing on a small part of what someone says without looking at the context (and people come in without reading the whole thing, just the title).

Dude that was pretty much the title of the article that I posted with the instagram information and ESPN highlights this as well in the video I posted. I read the entire instagram and watched the video before I posted it I don't get your deal but honestly you are sounding super butthurt. It was said in the instagram post and as soon as I saw misinterpretations I quoted Gilberts instagram editing my 1st post and highlighted certain points you need to start chilling with your accusations it's seriously reeks of butthurt.

Also a nice chunk of his instragram goes into depth as to why he thinks Lebron is not a #1 option like over 1/3 of it (though like I said in my 2nd post in my personal opinion I think he was talking about being more of a closer/crunch time player... It's not what he said but that's what I think) so again not sure what your whole deal is but like I said just chill man with the accusations and please don't make this a thread about Jason like you said this is about what Gilbert said so lets leave it at that.

@kdspurman I made this thread very quickly after I read the information as I was in a rush to get home if you wish to change the title of the thread so something more appropriate it's fine by me so it can please a few people here.

Minimal
08-01-2015, 07:13 PM
Did he just call the best player in the world not a #1 option on a team? Dude is still butthurt from his wizards days I guess.

mngopher35
08-01-2015, 07:15 PM
Dude that was pretty much the title of the article that I posted with the instagram information and ESPN highlights this as well in the video I posted. I read the entire instagram and watched the video before I posted it I don't get your deal but honestly you are sounding super butthurt. It was said in the instagram post and as soon as I saw misinterpretations I quoted Gilberts instagram editing my 1st post and highlighted certain points you need to start chilling with your accusations it's seriously reeks of butthurt.

Also a nice chunk of his instragram goes into depth as to why he thinks Lebron is not a #1 option like over 1/3 of it (though like I said in my 2nd post in my personal opinion I think he was talking about being more of a closer/crunch time player... It's not what he said but that's what I think) so again not sure what your whole deal is but like I said just chill man with the accusations and please don't make this a thread about Jason like you said this is about what Gilbert said so lets leave it at that.



The only problem I have had is you calling out someone for providing some context to what Gilbert Arenas said (since the title and op clearly don't). Then you continued to argue that even though it is all there clear as day in the thread. I have already stated I actually agree with most of what Arenas said so I have no reason to get "butthurt" over that at all lol.

I am fine stopping this discussion then if that is what you truly want. I just think that adding context to a poorly titled thread (click bait title basically, whether yours or not) is a good thing and should happen more around here so I defended it.

ghettosean
08-01-2015, 07:20 PM
You are kind of turning this into a thread about Jason and it's only you and I'm not wrong Gilbert did not speak in the current context he said by 2020 not sure what is so difficult to understand about that again here is what he said in his sentence.


this man could be the second best 3rd for sure player to ever play when it's all said and done around 2020+and he didn't even tap into his ability to be GREATEST..

and you are just taking 3 words out if it and changing the actual sentence where I quoted what Gilbert said and he went into depth on Lebron as a #1 option.

The full quote was there for you to read and you are still talking as if he said this in the current context.

I think well just have to agree to disagree on this... lol.

mngopher35
08-01-2015, 07:31 PM
You are kind of turning this into a thread about Jason and it's only you and I'm not wrong Gilbert did not speak in the current context he said by 2020 not sure what is so difficult to understand about that again here is what he said in his sentence.



and you are just taking 3 words out if it and changing the actual sentence where I quoted what Gilbert said and he went into depth on Lebron as a #1 option.

The full quote was there for you to read and you are still talking as if he said this in the current context.

I think well just have to agree to disagree on this... lol.

If you read my posts then you would see that I clearly understand Arenas wasn't talking this second. I focused on the for sure top 3 part because you said "he never even mentioned top 3 all time" in your response post. You are correct in this getting out of hand though, I honestly thought my initial post would be enough to clear things up.

JasonJohnHorn
08-01-2015, 07:53 PM
Gilbert never said anything about him being top 3 all time not really much of what you are saying here? He said if he worked on his weaknesses he could have been the GOAT if that's what you meant...

Can you quote what you are talking about from his instagram where he clearly said this?

Gilbert Arenas: "this man could be the second best 3rd for sure player to ever play when it's all said and done".

Unless I just imagined that.

He also said LBJ could pretty much average a triple double with 40 points if he wanted to play selfish ball.

And yes... he used present tense, because LBJ's career is not over yet. But if you want to address the tense instead of the spirit of what he's saying, go ahead and split hairs.

You also say that this top three ranking is dependant on LBJ correct the errors that he points out in LBJ's game, but he CLEARLY says AS YOUR QUOTED YOURSELF, that LBJ coudl be top three when all is said and done and that "he didn't even tap into his potential".

I'm not sure why you are so bent out of shape about this. It's selective reading on your part. It's not a big deal. You lead with the eye-catching head line. I was just trying to put it into its full context.

ghettosean
08-01-2015, 11:08 PM
Gilbert never said anything about him being top 3 all time not really much of what you are saying here? He said if he worked on his weaknesses he could have been the GOAT if that's what you meant...

Can you quote what you are talking about from his instagram where he clearly said this?

Gilbert Arenas: "this man could be the second best 3rd for sure player to ever play when it's all said and done".

Unless I just imagined that.

He also said LBJ could pretty much average a triple double with 40 points if he wanted to play selfish ball.

And yes... he used present tense, because LBJ's career is not over yet. But if you want to address the tense instead of the spirit of what he's saying, go ahead and split hairs.

You also say that this top three ranking is dependant on LBJ correct the errors that he points out in LBJ's game, but he CLEARLY says AS YOUR QUOTED YOURSELF, that LBJ coudl be top three when all is said and done and that "he didn't even tap into his potential".

I'm not sure why you are so bent out of shape about this. It's selective reading on your part. It's not a big deal. You lead with the eye-catching head line. I was just trying to put it into its full context.

Jason I'm not bent out of shape about anything i asked you a question and to quote. you were saying in your post Gilbert was referring to the current which is not what Gilbert is saying he's saying when it's all said and done regarding top 3 if something is not done now and you are talking about when it will be and is done that is future tense (he even said in 2020+ for gods sake not the present... lol) but like you said this is splitting hairs at this point and really stupid that i have to explain what future tense is but whatever like i said you and Mgopher seem to be the only ones thinking this well just have to agree to disagree because you both believe that is present tense what can i do more than educate.

Also i agree i was quoted that Lebron COULD be top 3 when it's all said and done but until then in the near FUTURE i won't comment on that.

SMH...

I appreciate your post/response but like Mgopher well have to agree to disagree on this.

(Apologies if there os grammar errors type from my phone)

IKnowHoops
08-02-2015, 01:43 AM
Maybe the worst thread title in PSD history.

Jayb587
08-02-2015, 01:45 AM
Shut up with that killer instinct fairy tale. That killer instinct was only available when they were winning. It somehow was never mentioned when they lost. Everybody has a killer instinct but they show it in different ways. I watch as many OKC games as I possibly can (80% of them). You can not for one second tell me that Westbrook is more competitive in KD. They may show it in a different way (Russell is more hardheaded and physical) but KD is more calm with it. What you are talking about is a distinct difference in personality. Kobe/Jordan were tough to deal with while James has a more likeable stature. Just because a player puts a mean face on doesn't mean they have more of a killer instinct than the player next to them. Actually, Jordan/Kobe don't have that body/speed/strength... so that is something FACTUAL. Just like James doesn't have their personality, he has his own: People want to PLAY with him. I have yet to hear about a player not wanting to play with LeBron because of LeBron. You hear countless reports of players not wanting to play with Kobe to the point where you will become shocked if someone does. We may not hear about players not wanting to play with Jordan presently but that's because social media wasn't as huge back then. So now, I think you get what you get with certain players and each of them has their own pros/cons. Would I like it if James had a more strict approach? Certainly, but that brushes potential teammates the wrong way -- which is certainly not something you want to do. This isn't like James is that friendly likeable guy who just jokes around like Dwight. The biggest difference between James/Kobe is the fact that James doesn't treat basketball like it is his life whereas Kobe does. I don't blame either one.

Sup . welcome back LOL. But yea anyway like usual u said alot and my point still stands lol. No killer instinct= cost him the GOAT as Gilbert agrees.

naps
08-02-2015, 05:33 PM
Well, Agent Zero knew if he only said positive things about LeBron then it wouldn't have been a story at all. He had to sneak in a stupid comment like this to make himself somewhat relevant again on the media. He realized people almost forgot he ever existed in the nba so there you go you talk **** about LeBron and you are on ESPN and every major media outlet in seconds. Not a rocket science.

kdspurman
08-02-2015, 07:51 PM
Well, Agent Zero knew if he only said positive things about LeBron then it wouldn't have been a story at all. He had to sneak in a stupid comment like this to make himself somewhat relevant again on the media. He realized people almost forgot he ever existed in the nba so there you go you talk **** about LeBron and you are on ESPN and every major media outlet in seconds. Not a rocket science.

you actually consider what Gil said as **** talking?

Scoots
08-02-2015, 11:19 PM
I agree LeBron could average a triple double, but he'd be less efficient and win fewer games that way so he's not going to try to do it.

FlashBolt
08-03-2015, 07:35 PM
Killer instinct is such a fabricated word to label someone who puts on a mean mug and is anti-social. Stfu with this please.

naps
08-05-2015, 06:12 AM
you actually consider what Gil said as **** talking?


That LeBron is not a #1 option? How else do you consider this???

Tony_Starks
08-05-2015, 09:46 AM
Well, Agent Zero knew if he only said positive things about LeBron then it wouldn't have been a story at all. He had to sneak in a stupid comment like this to make himself somewhat relevant again on the media. He realized people almost forgot he ever existed in the nba so there you go you talk **** about LeBron and you are on ESPN and every major media outlet in seconds. Not a rocket science.

you actually consider what Gil said as **** talking?

He obviously didn't read the article. Just saw the title and threw on his cape.

KG2TB
08-05-2015, 10:40 AM
Didn't arenas pull a gun on a teammate and **** in someone's shoe as a "prank?" Why are we listening to this moronic has been?

kdspurman
08-05-2015, 11:00 AM
That LeBron is not a #1 option? How else do you consider this???

Did you read everything and his reasoning? or the entire article?


He obviously didn't read the article. Just saw the title and threw on his cape.

That's my guess as well

ghettosean
08-05-2015, 11:06 AM
Did you read everything and his reasoning? or the entire article?



That's my guess as well

No need to guess he didn't read it... It's pretty clear from his response... the 1st post shows his instagram message and it's only a paragraph it's really a 1 minute read. Arena's was pretty on the money with 90% of what he had to say in his critiques on Lebrons game just my opinion though.

kdspurman
08-05-2015, 11:26 AM
No need to guess he didn't read it... It's pretty clear from his response... the 1st post shows his instagram message and it's only a paragraph it's really a 1 minute read. Arena's was pretty on the money with 90% of what he had to say in his critiques on Lebrons game just my opinion though.

Yea I said the same, it was pretty spot on. Maybe the #1 option wasn't the right way to put it, but the context around it didn't seem like **** talking at all.

Tony_Starks
08-05-2015, 11:40 AM
Did you read everything and his reasoning? or the entire article?



That's my guess as well

No need to guess he didn't read it... It's pretty clear from his response... the 1st post shows his instagram message and it's only a paragraph it's really a 1 minute read. Arena's was pretty on the money with 90% of what he had to say in his critiques on Lebrons game just my opinion though.

Ironically his response pretty much captures the typical stance of Lebron apologist. Anything that can be seen as even being remotely negative is pounced on and defended without even looking at the context.

FlashBolt
08-05-2015, 05:52 PM
What did naps say that was wrong? He's saying that Gilbert threw in the "He's not a #1 option" so he can draw more publicity because he's saying something that shouts NEGATIVE to everyone's eyes. And based on Gilbert's definition of what a 1st option is, you can certainly argue that he is being negative to some degree.

bucketss
08-05-2015, 06:52 PM
i think both lebron haters, and lebron fans read the title, and either got really defensive or started agreeing :laugh2:

KG2TB
08-05-2015, 07:22 PM
It's obvious that LeBron is a number 1 option...that's not even debatable. Arenas could have just said "The dude could be the best all time if he was an elite closer like Mike, Kobe" and ended it there, saving us all time, while ******** in someone elses shoe.

bucketss
08-05-2015, 07:35 PM
he also said lebron = magic with jordans athleticism.


does he believe magic is a #1 option?

FlashBolt
08-05-2015, 08:12 PM
he also said lebron = magic with jordans athleticism.


does he believe magic is a #1 option?

Well, it's perfectly clear that he's stating that LeBron doesn't have that scoring prowess and aggression that Kobe/Jordan have. I don't think he has the correct definition of what a 1st option really is.

Hawkeye15
08-05-2015, 08:28 PM
It's obvious that LeBron is a number 1 option...that's not even debatable. Arenas could have just said "The dude could be the best all time if he was an elite closer like Mike, Kobe" and ended it there, saving us all time, while ******** in someone elses shoe.

the funny thing is, all the GM survey's, all the perception, all the whatever, and we can clearly see with the numbers that Kobe is not the same level when it comes to closing games being productive as LeBron has been.

Perception is one thing, facts are another. eh

I get his point, meaning, he wants LeBron to play hero ball. But that has historically (unless your name is Michael Jordan), been the wrong thing to do. But whatever, right? We wanna see a guy go 1-5 and take a contested shot with 27 seconds on the clock or he sucks!

KG2TB
08-05-2015, 08:46 PM
the funny thing is, all the GM survey's, all the perception, all the whatever, and we can clearly see with the numbers that Kobe is not the same level when it comes to closing games being productive as LeBron has been.

Perception is one thing, facts are another. eh

I get his point, meaning, he wants LeBron to play hero ball. But that has historically (unless your name is Michael Jordan), been the wrong thing to do. But whatever, right? We wanna see a guy go 1-5 and take a contested shot with 27 seconds on the clock or he sucks!

I agree with most of this. LeBron is always looking to make the right basketball play whereas someone like Kobe wants all the glory and will jack shots against 4 defenders continuously. However, stats aside, I think LeBron does kind of shrivel up so to speak, during the utmost clutch situations. Down 1-2 points, less than 30 seconds to go etc....although I don't know the actual stats on that. It just seems to me watching him, that he plays with a LOT more confidence during the first 46 minutes of the game or if the game is tied, or if his team has a lead. That's just my perception though....when his team is down, he doesn't have that same confidence to me that Mike, Larry, and Kobe had....although Kobe is just unconscious all the time and his "confidence" often hurt the team....although it also helped the team quite a lot as well.

FlashBolt
08-05-2015, 11:08 PM
I agree with most of this. LeBron is always looking to make the right basketball play whereas someone like Kobe wants all the glory and will jack shots against 4 defenders continuously. However, stats aside, I think LeBron does kind of shrivel up so to speak, during the utmost clutch situations. Down 1-2 points, less than 30 seconds to go etc....although I don't know the actual stats on that. It just seems to me watching him, that he plays with a LOT more confidence during the first 46 minutes of the game or if the game is tied, or if his team has a lead. That's just my perception though....when his team is down, he doesn't have that same confidence to me that Mike, Larry, and Kobe had....although Kobe is just unconscious all the time and his "confidence" often hurt the team....although it also helped the team quite a lot as well.

No, I think you're just paying WAY too much attention to it. He has called for shots many times but what he does that Kobe/MJ can't do is acknowledge that Ray Allen is a better shooter than him and so, he passes it to shooters when he spots an opportunity. If statistics showed me that Ray Allen has a higher probability of making a shot than Jordan, I'm going with Ray Allen on the shot. That's as simple as it gets.

KG2TB
08-05-2015, 11:31 PM
No, I think you're just paying WAY too much attention to it. He has called for shots many times but what he does that Kobe/MJ can't do is acknowledge that Ray Allen is a better shooter than him and so, he passes it to shooters when he spots an opportunity. If statistics showed me that Ray Allen has a higher probability of making a shot than Jordan, I'm going with Ray Allen on the shot. That's as simple as it gets.

What are you talking about? Did Jordan not pass to Kerr against Utah? Did he not run the play that set up paxson against Phoenix? Those are just the obvious examples. To say Jordan "couldn't" do it is just silly.

kdspurman
08-05-2015, 11:46 PM
I agree with most of this. LeBron is always looking to make the right basketball play whereas someone like Kobe wants all the glory and will jack shots against 4 defenders continuously. However, stats aside, I think LeBron does kind of shrivel up so to speak, during the utmost clutch situations. Down 1-2 points, less than 30 seconds to go etc....although I don't know the actual stats on that. It just seems to me watching him, that he plays with a LOT more confidence during the first 46 minutes of the game or if the game is tied, or if his team has a lead. That's just my perception though....when his team is down, he doesn't have that same confidence to me that Mike, Larry, and Kobe had....although Kobe is just unconscious all the time and his "confidence" often hurt the team....although it also helped the team quite a lot as well.

I've thought the same about him, and I personally think it's cause at 1 point he cared too much what people thought of him and what he did and was almost afraid of failing which made him a little timid at times. It's not like he would have the ball and drive and dish to a teammate, but there were times he would stand in the corner and not move much when someone else had the ball late in games.

At a certain point, he started to play a little more care-free & loose and just doing the right basketball play and he looks much more comfortable late in games. Again, this is just my opinion, before anyone jumps down my throat :)

KG2TB
08-06-2015, 12:11 AM
I've thought the same about him, and I personally think it's cause at 1 point he cared too much what people thought of him and what he did and was almost afraid of failing which made him a little timid at times. It's not like he would have the ball and drive and dish to a teammate, but there were times he would stand in the corner and not move much when someone else had the ball late in games.

At a certain point, he started to play a little more care-free & loose and just doing the right basketball play and he looks much more comfortable late in games. Again, this is just my opinion, before anyone jumps down my throat :)

I agree.

Tony_Starks
08-06-2015, 01:22 AM
I agree with most of this. LeBron is always looking to make the right basketball play whereas someone like Kobe wants all the glory and will jack shots against 4 defenders continuously. However, stats aside, I think LeBron does kind of shrivel up so to speak, during the utmost clutch situations. Down 1-2 points, less than 30 seconds to go etc....although I don't know the actual stats on that. It just seems to me watching him, that he plays with a LOT more confidence during the first 46 minutes of the game or if the game is tied, or if his team has a lead. That's just my perception though....when his team is down, he doesn't have that same confidence to me that Mike, Larry, and Kobe had....although Kobe is just unconscious all the time and his "confidence" often hurt the team....although it also helped the team quite a lot as well.

No, I think you're just paying WAY too much attention to it. He has called for shots many times but what he does that Kobe/MJ can't do is acknowledge that Ray Allen is a better shooter than him and so, he passes it to shooters when he spots an opportunity. If statistics showed me that Ray Allen has a higher probability of making a shot than Jordan, I'm going with Ray Allen on the shot. That's as simple as it gets.


You do realize Ray Allen saved that series as a result of a Lebron brick and offensive board right? You make it sound like he got a assist when he tried to shoot it INSTEAD of Ray, failed miserably, and got bailed out.

Bad example.

Also Kobe and MJ have multiple consecutive titles by passing to guys like Steve Kerr, Derrick Fisher, John Paxon, and for the most recent Laker ring Ron Artest ftw game 7 3 pointer against Boston.

So Kobe and MJ can and have passed to shooters and have the hardware to back it up.

thekmp211
08-06-2015, 02:14 AM
how'd gilbert do against lebron and his cavalosers back in the day....

yeah can't think of one single iota of a reason to care what agent zero has to say about the best player in basketball.

FlashBolt
08-06-2015, 02:21 AM
What are you talking about? Did Jordan not pass to Kerr against Utah? Did he not run the play that set up paxson against Phoenix? Those are just the obvious examples. To say Jordan "couldn't" do it is just silly.

But it's not the same. Those guys are not likely to pass the ball whereas LeBron is more willing. That's what I'm trying to portray.

FlashBolt
08-06-2015, 02:25 AM
You do realize Ray Allen saved that series as a result of a Lebron brick and offensive board right? You make it sound like he got a assist when he tried to shoot it INSTEAD of Ray, failed miserably, and got bailed out.

Bad example.

Also Kobe and MJ have multiple consecutive titles by passing to guys like Steve Kerr, Derrick Fisher, John Paxon, and for the most recent Laker ring Ron Artest ftw game 7 3 pointer against Boston.

So Kobe and MJ can and have passed to shooters and have the hardware to back it up.

Lmao, there you go again saying saved.. The refs helped your boytoy Kobe get a free ring and Fisher/Horry saved Kobe like 1000000x, get over yourself. You make it sound like James didn't carry that team from a huge deficit heading to the fourth. Lmao about the passing with Kobe. Can't have it both with you guys. One day you're crying that James passed the ball instead of taking the shot, the next you're defending Kobe saying he does it often to win titles. GIVE ME A BREAK. Funny how we talk about Kobe have "5" when refs admitted to helping the Lakers.

Hawkeye15
08-06-2015, 10:24 AM
You do realize Ray Allen saved that series as a result of a Lebron brick and offensive board right? You make it sound like he got a assist when he tried to shoot it INSTEAD of Ray, failed miserably, and got bailed out.

Bad example.

Also Kobe and MJ have multiple consecutive titles by passing to guys like Steve Kerr, Derrick Fisher, John Paxon, and for the most recent Laker ring Ron Artest ftw game 7 3 pointer against Boston.

So Kobe and MJ can and have passed to shooters and have the hardware to back it up.

http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=400467338&period=4

you do realize the only reason Miami was in that game is because LeBron went nova in the 4th, right?

Munkeysuit
08-06-2015, 10:42 AM
Ok so now we care about what Gilbert Arenas thinks?

Ask any Owner, GM, Head Coach, Scout, hell even the ball boy's know Lebron is a #1 option!
it's not rocket science, just put him next to any and every star in the NBA right now and there would be maybe 2 - 3 other star players that would get the ball before Lebron would and ALL of them happen to be point guards.

ghettosean
08-06-2015, 10:55 AM
http://espn.go.com/nba/playbyplay?gameId=400467338&period=4

you do realize the only reason Miami was in that game is because LeBron went nova in the 4th, right?

That doesn't make his statement incorrect

ghettosean
08-06-2015, 10:58 AM
But it's not the same. Those guys are not likely to pass the ball whereas LeBron is more willing. That's what I'm trying to portray.

The play was set to give the ball to Jordan but he specifically told Kerr that he was going to pass to him... MJ sounded like he was pretty willing to pass to me.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-06-14/sports/1997165071_1_bulls-jordan-win-this-game



"When Phil drew up the play at the end, which everybody in the gym, everybody on TV knew it was coming to me, I looked at Steve and said, 'This is your chance, because I know [John] Stockton is going to come over and help and I'm going to come to you.' "


That's a quote from MJ and Kerr pretty much tells the same story... I think there is a misconception that Jordan was all about himself more than he was about winning and that might have been true very early in his career but once he figured it all out he was just about winning... Period.

Tony_Starks
08-06-2015, 11:35 AM
But it's not the same. Those guys are not likely to pass the ball whereas LeBron is more willing. That's what I'm trying to portray.

The play was set to give the ball to Jordan but he specifically told Kerr that he was going to pass to him... MJ sounded like he was pretty willing to pass to me.

http://articles.baltimoresun.com/1997-06-14/sports/1997165071_1_bulls-jordan-win-this-game



"When Phil drew up the play at the end, which everybody in the gym, everybody on TV knew it was coming to me, I looked at Steve and said, 'This is your chance, because I know [John] Stockton is going to come over and help and I'm going to come to you.' "


That's a quote from MJ and Kerr pretty much tells the same story... I think there is a misconception that Jordan was all about himself more than he was about winning and that might have been true very early in his career but once he figured it all out he was just about winning... Period.


People just use narratives without taking into account context. When MJ and Kobe had reliable help they gave up the rock.

When Kobe had Smush, Kwame, and LO he scored 81 points and won a game.
When he had Fish, Gasol, and LO he got scored in the 30s and won chips.
When MJ had the Jordaneers he scored 64 and lost.
When MJ had Pip and the crew....you know the rest.

It's pretty simple, they tailor their game to the surrounding talent. The difference between them and Lebron is that regardless of talent they could be counted on to take games over if need be without caring what people would say if they made or missed the shots...

FraziersKnicks
08-06-2015, 11:47 AM
People just use narratives without taking into account context. When MJ and Kobe had reliable help they gave up the rock.

When Kobe had Smush, Kwame, and LO he scored 81 points and won a game.
When he had Fish, Gasol, and LO he got scored in the 30s and won chips.
When MJ had the Jordaneers he scored 64 and lost.
When MJ had Pip and the crew....you know the rest.

It's pretty simple, they tailor their game to the surrounding talent. The difference between them and Lebron is that regardless of talent they could be counted on to take games over if need be without caring what people would say if they made or missed the shots...

Didn't we just see LeBron do that in his first run with the Cavs and these playoffs when Kyrie and Love were injured? Bad timing man.

Hawkeye15
08-06-2015, 12:00 PM
Didn't we just see LeBron do that in his first run with the Cavs and these playoffs when Kyrie and Love were injured? Bad timing man.

the most ironic part is that his haters then went on to point out his shooting percentages when he played some hero ball haha. Uh, if you want to pat Iverson or Kobe on the back for doing it, you can't then turn around and burn a guy for doing it.

RLundi
08-06-2015, 12:10 PM
He obviously didn't read the article. Just saw the title and threw on his cape.

This legitimately made me laugh.

Tony_Starks
08-06-2015, 12:19 PM
Didn't we just see LeBron do that in his first run with the Cavs and these playoffs when Kyrie and Love were injured? Bad timing man.

the most ironic part is that his haters then went on to point out his shooting percentages when he played some hero ball haha. Uh, if you want to pat Iverson or Kobe on the back for doing it, you can't then turn around and burn a guy for doing it.


Not really. During the Finals I gave Lebron his props for going Iverson mode (exact words)because that's what he had to do. No shame in his most recent L.

I was also quick to point out the posters who were huge hypocrites, not naming any names (jamicalliber), that all the sudden were quick to give Lebron props for playing "hero ball" and throwing his shooting percentage out the window when they've been trying to discredit greats like Kobe for years when they had to do it and using his poor efficiency as the gospel. Now all the sudden they discovered context of teammates...imagine that!

bucketss
08-06-2015, 12:43 PM
Not really. During the Finals I gave Lebron his props for going Iverson mode (exact words)because that's what he had to do. No shame in his most recent L.

I was also quick to point out the posters who were huge hypocrites, not naming any names (jamicalliber), that all the sudden were quick to give Lebron props for playing "hero ball" and throwing his shooting percentage out the window when they've been trying to discredit greats like Kobe for years when they had to do it and using his poor efficiency as the gospel. Now all the sudden they discovered context of teammates...imagine that!

kobe shoots that way regardless of team mates Example: 2010 nba finals game 7, 2004 finals etc.

Tony_Starks
08-06-2015, 12:47 PM
Not really. During the Finals I gave Lebron his props for going Iverson mode (exact words)because that's what he had to do. No shame in his most recent L.

I was also quick to point out the posters who were huge hypocrites, not naming any names (jamicalliber), that all the sudden were quick to give Lebron props for playing "hero ball" and throwing his shooting percentage out the window when they've been trying to discredit greats like Kobe for years when they had to do it and using his poor efficiency as the gospel. Now all the sudden they discovered context of teammates...imagine that!

kobe shoots that way regardless of team mates Example: 2010 nba finals game 7, 2004 finals etc.

Can you argue with the results tho? If doing it his way got him 5 out of 7 I'm really not sure what more you can ask for. 7 for7?

naps
08-06-2015, 01:01 PM
He obviously didn't read the article. Just saw the title and threw on his cape.

No I read the entire thing. Just because he praised LeBron in most of the post doesn't mean I am not gonna call this a stupid comment. He was looking for attention since everyonehas forgotten who he was and what's the better way to do it than making a ridiculous comment about arguably the second most polarizing athlete in the world (messi ofcourse first)?

ghettosean
08-06-2015, 01:10 PM
He obviously didn't read the article. Just saw the title and threw on his cape.



This legitimately made me laugh.

LOL... I skipped over this... Funny stuff :D

ghettosean
08-06-2015, 01:21 PM
I've thought the same about him, and I personally think it's cause at 1 point he cared too much what people thought of him and what he did and was almost afraid of failing which made him a little timid at times. It's not like he would have the ball and drive and dish to a teammate, but there were times he would stand in the corner and not move much when someone else had the ball late in games.

At a certain point, he started to play a little more care-free & loose and just doing the right basketball play and he looks much more comfortable late in games. Again, this is just my opinion, before anyone jumps down my throat :)

This pretty much sums up how I view Lebron as well and everyone is free to give there opinions here this is a forum. I in large part agree with 90% of what Arena's has to say as well like the "moves like a train and not like a cheetah" which is kind of unfair when people do compare Lebron and Jordan because they aren't really the same kind of players at all even right down to a point like that where Jordan was more nimble and quick whether it was to get to the bucket or get a shot off where Lebron is more of a bulldozer to get to the rim to get either the foul or the bucket as one example. The biggest I find is his fear of failing and what everyone would think of him if he did. It's just my opinion but if he got over this mental hurdle/weakness I think he could have been the GOAT now never mind when it's all said and done.

Jamiecballer
08-06-2015, 04:08 PM
Not really. During the Finals I gave Lebron his props for going Iverson mode (exact words)because that's what he had to do. No shame in his most recent L.

I was also quick to point out the posters who were huge hypocrites, not naming any names (jamicalliber), that all the sudden were quick to give Lebron props for playing "hero ball" and throwing his shooting percentage out the window when they've been trying to discredit greats like Kobe for years when they had to do it and using his poor efficiency as the gospel. Now all the sudden they discovered context of teammates...imagine that!

i wasn't giving Lebron props for playing hero ball because he didn't do it. He shouldered the load while continuing to look for the pass all day long. There seems to be a misunderstanding here about what 'hero ball' is. i know you don't get it that's for sure.

Tony_Starks
08-06-2015, 04:26 PM
Not really. During the Finals I gave Lebron his props for going Iverson mode (exact words)because that's what he had to do. No shame in his most recent L.

I was also quick to point out the posters who were huge hypocrites, not naming any names (jamicalliber), that all the sudden were quick to give Lebron props for playing "hero ball" and throwing his shooting percentage out the window when they've been trying to discredit greats like Kobe for years when they had to do it and using his poor efficiency as the gospel. Now all the sudden they discovered context of teammates...imagine that!

i wasn't giving Lebron props for playing hero ball because he didn't do it. He shouldered the load while continuing to look for the pass all day long. There seems to be a misunderstanding here about what 'hero ball' is. i know you don't get it that's for sure.

I get your definition.


Hero ball: continuing to shoot, even at a high volume and poor percentage, because no one else can make a shot... Unless you happen to be Lebron, in which case you are just shouldering the load and doing what's necessary to keep your team competitive.

ghettosean
08-06-2015, 04:30 PM
Not really. During the Finals I gave Lebron his props for going Iverson mode (exact words)because that's what he had to do. No shame in his most recent L.

I was also quick to point out the posters who were huge hypocrites, not naming any names (jamicalliber), that all the sudden were quick to give Lebron props for playing "hero ball" and throwing his shooting percentage out the window when they've been trying to discredit greats like Kobe for years when they had to do it and using his poor efficiency as the gospel. Now all the sudden they discovered context of teammates...imagine that!

i wasn't giving Lebron props for playing hero ball because he didn't do it. He shouldered the load while continuing to look for the pass all day long. There seems to be a misunderstanding here about what 'hero ball' is. i know you don't get it that's for sure.

I'm curious because I'm not super clear on it myself but what is your definition of hero ball

Hawkeye15
08-06-2015, 05:29 PM
That doesn't make his statement incorrect

no, but it does mean without LeBron playing like a beast in the 4th quarter of an elimination game, it wouldn't have even mattered in the first place. That shot doesn't exist without LeBron

Jamiecballer
08-06-2015, 08:10 PM
I get your definition.


Hero ball: continuing to shoot, even at a high volume and poor percentage, because no one else can make a shot... Unless you happen to be Lebron, in which case you are just shouldering the load and doing what's necessary to keep your team competitive.

Hero ball: Playing the game as though you are the only player on the court, or the only one capable of making an important shot. Continuously taking bad shots and abandoning a team approach.

Lebron has never been accused of playing that way. Not even when he was averaging 32 shots a game in the finals.

naps
08-07-2015, 03:53 AM
^^Perfect way to define it. But hey ofcourse fans of a player who shoots whenever he wants regardless of what teammates he has will disagree.

FlashBolt
08-07-2015, 05:09 AM
I get your definition.


Hero ball: continuing to shoot, even at a high volume and poor percentage, because no one else can make a shot... Unless you happen to be Lebron, in which case you are just shouldering the load and doing what's necessary to keep your team competitive.

That's not what hero ball is... Maybe that's why your view on LeBron vs Kobe is undeniably, stupid. Hero ball is as simple as what Jamie pointed out: Someone who chooses to ignore teammates and believes he is the sole player on the team. That has never been LeBron's motto but it has always been stuck with Kobe.. wonder why.

Jamiecballer
08-09-2015, 04:57 PM
why does it seem like Tony Starks always asks a question and the better you respond to it the longer it is until he returns

FlashBolt
08-10-2015, 01:17 AM
why does it seem like Tony Starks always asks a question and the better you respond to it the longer it is until he returns

He does that in every thread he gets destroyed in. It's quite funny the first time but after a few occurrences, you expect him to run away after you hit the "Post quick reply" button. Funny part is how he hops around threads as if we don't remember it.

omdigga
08-10-2015, 08:15 AM
Lebron is the omni-option.

Tony_Starks
08-10-2015, 11:26 AM
why does it seem like Tony Starks always asks a question and the better you respond to it the longer it is until he returns

OR he dosen't view your response as "better," gets bored with the endless Lebron dickriding/hypocrisy, apologist shenanigans and taps out?

Tony_Starks
08-10-2015, 11:35 AM
I get your definition.


Hero ball: continuing to shoot, even at a high volume and poor percentage, because no one else can make a shot... Unless you happen to be Lebron, in which case you are just shouldering the load and doing what's necessary to keep your team competitive.

Hero ball: Playing the game as though you are the only player on the court, or the only one capable of making an important shot. Continuously taking bad shots and abandoning a team approach.

Lebron has never been accused of playing that way. Not even when he was averaging 32 shots a game in the finals.

Serious question whats the difference between Lebron playing with JR Swish, Delly, Shump, TT and others, taking a bunch of shots at a low percentage

or

Kobe playing with Smush, Kwame, LO, Walton, Mihm, and whoever else and taking a bunch of shots at a low percentage?

I guarantee you were all over Kobe for being "selfish" when he was forced to do the exact same thing you praise Lebron for doing because of his supporting cast.

Jamiecballer
08-10-2015, 12:21 PM
OR he dosen't view your response as "better," gets bored with the endless Lebron dickriding/hypocrisy, apologist shenanigans and taps out?

that's not what i said.

Jamiecballer
08-10-2015, 12:39 PM
Serious question whats the difference between Lebron playing with JR Swish, Delly, Shump, TT and others, taking a bunch of shots at a low percentage

or

Kobe playing with Smush, Kwame, LO, Walton, Mihm, and whoever else and taking a bunch of shots at a low percentage?

I guarantee you were all over Kobe for being "selfish" when he was forced to do the exact same thing you praise Lebron for doing because of his supporting cast.

The difference is big, although it is subtle if all you do is look at the box score. As I mentioned previously, hero ball is when you get sucked into playing one big game of horse on the offensive end. I watched a lot of Lakers series in the mid 2000's and involving teammates was never a primary concern for Kobe despite his otherworldly gifts and the amount of defensive attention he received. If you watched much of the finals this year and failed to notice that Lebron repeatedly returned to trying to set up or force feed his teammates than i would suggest you weren't watching very closely at all.

Tony_Starks
08-10-2015, 01:25 PM
Serious question whats the difference between Lebron playing with JR Swish, Delly, Shump, TT and others, taking a bunch of shots at a low percentage

or

Kobe playing with Smush, Kwame, LO, Walton, Mihm, and whoever else and taking a bunch of shots at a low percentage?

I guarantee you were all over Kobe for being "selfish" when he was forced to do the exact same thing you praise Lebron for doing because of his supporting cast.

The difference is big, although it is subtle if all you do is look at the box score. As I mentioned previously, hero ball is when you get sucked into playing one big game of horse on the offensive end. I watched a lot of Lakers series in the mid 2000's and involving teammates was never a primary concern for Kobe despite his otherworldly gifts and the amount of defensive attention he received. If you watched much of the finals this year and failed to notice that Lebron repeatedly returned to trying to set up or force feed his teammates than i would suggest you weren't watching very closely at all.

I like how you danced around my question. I'll make it simpler.

Lebron passes to Delly, he bricks it. Passes to JR Swish, bricks it. Shump, same thing. So on and so forth until it' obvious he has to take over.

Kobe passes to Smush,brick. Kobe passes to Kwame, he trips over the ball and falls out of bounds, so on and so forth on and he takes over.

As you stated the box score results will be about the same, bunch of shots on low percentage, lots of turnovers, not a whole lot of assist.

So basically all I'm left with is your subjective opinion that Lebrons attempt to get his teammates more involved was better and more frequent than Kobes. Your opinion says Lebron was shooting as a last resort and Kobe was shooting to the detriment of the team, even though we can agree both their teammates were inferior.

Well my opinion as a person that watched every game in it's entirety, not just clips on sportscenter or the tnt/nbatv games, was their were lots and lots of times Kobe set the table for scrubs and they simply couldn't get it done and he did what he had to do.

To let you tell it he's just a shoot come hell or high water gunner that has no regard for the talent around him. So basically when they won multiple chips it must've been in spite of him..

Hawkeye15
08-10-2015, 01:28 PM
I know Kobe played some hero ball, but in his defense, he did assist on 1/4 points while he was on the floor. Nowhere near LeBron for instance, but we aren't exactly talking about Nick Young level gunning here...

Tony_Starks
08-10-2015, 02:16 PM
I know Kobe played some hero ball, but in his defense, he did assist on 1/4 points while he was on the floor. Nowhere near LeBron for instance, but we aren't exactly talking about Nick Young level gunning here...

I can't wait to see Swaggy P, Kobe, and Lou Will all on the floor at the same time btw. That might be my next sig!!

FlashBolt
08-10-2015, 04:07 PM
Tony_Stark, here is the difference: LeBron James actively tries to find teammates. Kobe meanwhile guns first and only passes it when the media blasts him for not doing so. Heck, his own teammates say he doesn't pass them the ball... so if his own teammates are saying it, why the hell are YOU qualified to defend him in that regard?

Tony_Starks
08-10-2015, 04:51 PM
Tony_Stark, here is the difference: LeBron James actively tries to find teammates. Kobe meanwhile guns first and only passes it when the media blasts him for not doing so. Heck, his own teammates say he doesn't pass them the ball... so if his own teammates are saying it, why the hell are YOU qualified to defend him in that regard?


Everything you just said is subjective. For every teammate you can supposedly find that says he doesn't pass, please name me at least 1 current one btw, I can list you a player that openly says they love playing with him. So basically we are just going to pick and choose whatever players statement fits our debate to believe? Is that how it works?

Nothing you said is of substance.

FlashBolt
08-10-2015, 05:01 PM
Everything you just said is subjective. For every teammate you can supposedly find that says he doesn't pass, please name me at least 1 current one btw, I can list you a player that openly says they love playing with him. So basically we are just going to pick and choose whatever players statement fits our debate to believe? Is that how it works?

Nothing you said is of substance.

What part of reputation is substance? He has a bad rep; including one from Phil. When you have a bad reputation, it is almost like you are the problem. Just look at Dwight, BAD REP all over him. You don't know Kobe personally but his teammates know him better than anyone and when you say things like: "He shouldn't be in the NBA, we were too cheap to afford anyone else", what do you think happens? Refer to my previous post when I said I don't hate Kobe for being the way he is but he rubs people off the wrong way more often than not. We're way past the he-said, she-said. Go Google the 10000 different negative things about Kobe regarding his teammates/leadership.
Antawn Jamison spoke of how when Kobe has the ball, Kobe himself told him that he doesn't see the open teammate but simply the basket. If that isn't hero-ball mentality, I don't know what is.

Jamiecballer
08-10-2015, 05:15 PM
I like how you danced around my question. I'll make it simpler.

Lebron passes to Delly, he bricks it. Passes to JR Swish, bricks it. Shump, same thing. So on and so forth until it' obvious he has to take over.

Kobe passes to Smush,brick. Kobe passes to Kwame, he trips over the ball and falls out of bounds, so on and so forth on and he takes over.

As you stated the box score results will be about the same, bunch of shots on low percentage, lots of turnovers, not a whole lot of assist.

So basically all I'm left with is your subjective opinion that Lebrons attempt to get his teammates more involved was better and more frequent than Kobes. Your opinion says Lebron was shooting as a last resort and Kobe was shooting to the detriment of the team, even though we can agree both their teammates were inferior.

Well my opinion as a person that watched every game in it's entirety, not just clips on sportscenter or the tnt/nbatv games, was their were lots and lots of times Kobe set the table for scrubs and they simply couldn't get it done and he did what he had to do.

To let you tell it he's just a shoot come hell or high water gunner that has no regard for the talent around him. So basically when they won multiple chips it must've been in spite of him..
Your interpretation of my words is not correct. Of course these are all opinions, since neither of us is inside the minds of either player. I think you are wrong in suggesting both men reach a point where they flip a switch and decide to take it upon themselves as you imply above. That describes Jordan & Kobe IMO. Once the switch is flipped it stays stuck in the score position.

Lebron rarely gets sucked into that. You watched the series right? He was still in team mode to the bitter end. He took a ton of shots but that permanent switch just doesn't exist with him. It's a way different mindset. The only player of similar talent I saw with a similar commitment to team over I was Kevin Garnett.

FlashBolt
08-10-2015, 07:09 PM
I see Tony_Starks still has an issue deciphering the difference between Bron and Kobe. Look, you brought up the fact that Kobe had no teammates and had to go gun-mode. Well, Bron had no teammates at Cleveland for the longest time and he never took it upon himself to be a gunner the way Kobe has done notoriously. Last season, how many shots did he take? The third most FGA per minute for his career. You would think players would slow down in shots but not Kobe, he just keeps shooting. I get it, bad players, pressure, you having a big ego and wanting to show you can still do it. But the fact is, Kobe can't do it any longer. You bring up LeBron's roster for the Finals as if it isn't two completely different circumstances. 1) Cleveland's roster went through huge changes. Their entire gameplan changed when Love/Kyrie went out. Guys like Delly had to step in and play minutes his body couldn't handle and shots he shouldn't be taking. 2) They played against the Warriors in the NBA Finals and we still saw LeBron making all the plays and still, trying his best to score as well. He said so himself that he wasn't and has never been someone who liked to shoot that many times. But there is difference between having to shoot for the sake of it, and shooting because you just want to.

Chronz
08-10-2015, 07:53 PM
They play differently, isn't that obvious regardless of teammates. Kobe had trouble passing when his ego got in the way. Bron never has trouble passing.

Tony_Starks
08-11-2015, 12:36 AM
I like how you danced around my question. I'll make it simpler.

Lebron passes to Delly, he bricks it. Passes to JR Swish, bricks it. Shump, same thing. So on and so forth until it' obvious he has to take over.

Kobe passes to Smush,brick. Kobe passes to Kwame, he trips over the ball and falls out of bounds, so on and so forth on and he takes over.

As you stated the box score results will be about the same, bunch of shots on low percentage, lots of turnovers, not a whole lot of assist.

So basically all I'm left with is your subjective opinion that Lebrons attempt to get his teammates more involved was better and more frequent than Kobes. Your opinion says Lebron was shooting as a last resort and Kobe was shooting to the detriment of the team, even though we can agree both their teammates were inferior.

Well my opinion as a person that watched every game in it's entirety, not just clips on sportscenter or the tnt/nbatv games, was their were lots and lots of times Kobe set the table for scrubs and they simply couldn't get it done and he did what he had to do.

To let you tell it he's just a shoot come hell or high water gunner that has no regard for the talent around him. So basically when they won multiple chips it must've been in spite of him..
Your interpretation of my words is not correct. Of course these are all opinions, since neither of us is inside the minds of either player. I think you are wrong in suggesting both men reach a point where they flip a switch and decide to take it upon themselves as you imply above. That describes Jordan & Kobe IMO. Once the switch is flipped it stays stuck in the score position.

Lebron rarely gets sucked into that. You watched the series right? He was still in team mode to the bitter end. He took a ton of shots but that permanent switch just doesn't exist with him. It's a way different mindset. The only player of similar talent I saw with a similar commitment to team over I was Kevin Garnett.


I think we're arguing semantics. If you're saying Lebron is a more willing passer that's not even a debate, comparing him to Kobe has always been just as ridiculous as comparing Magic and Jordan. Different games, different mentalities. Agreed.

At the end of the day I'm pretty sure we can both agree that when given adequate talent both guys are capable of adjusting their game to lead their team to a championship. Its been proven. So the idea that Lebron can adjust to the situation and Kobe is only capable of playing one way is false. Disagree.

I had no issue with what Lebron did in the Finals, I applauded it.

My only issue was a lot of people who constantly rant and rave about efficiency and advanced stats where all the sudden willing to set them aside and see the big picture. Im of the opinion had that been ANY other player he would've got roasted. Roasted for either not making shots or for not being able to "make everybody better." You guys seem to give him a pass for both.

Also you guys are completely putting the loss on his teammates and giving him a pass on some glaring deficiencies on his part. The jumper being broke. The free throws being off. The missed game winners. The lackadaisical defense. That's all him, can't blame the cast for that.

nastynice
08-11-2015, 02:16 AM
lol, not a #1 option?? Yea, he's more like a off the bench type a guy. Solid role player. Role of doing everything, but hey...

nastynice
08-11-2015, 02:18 AM
reading these past couple posts, I'll say this tho, I 100% agree there is a killer instinct which he "kind of" lacks. Like he'll show it in flashes, but its not ingrained in his DNA. There's no question its ingrained in kobe's. I'm not saying that in of itself makes one player better than the other, but if Lebron DID have that killer instinct, oh my god, he would truly be on another level

bucketss
08-11-2015, 12:18 PM
so there is this killer instinct gene certain people are born with?

Chronz
08-11-2015, 01:20 PM
reading these past couple posts, I'll say this tho, I 100% agree there is a killer instinct which he "kind of" lacks. Like he'll show it in flashes, but its not ingrained in his DNA. There's no question its ingrained in kobe's. I'm not saying that in of itself makes one player better than the other, but if Lebron DID have that killer instinct, oh my god, he would truly be on another level

Even if true, its quite possible that gene would fundamentally change his game and make him worse as a result. Thats the thing about these completely subjective arguments, they work both ways.

ghettosean
08-11-2015, 01:41 PM
so there is this killer instinct gene certain people are born with?


I think you are going a little to silly with that comment I think we all know what people are talking about when referring to a killer instinct it's a mentality that some players have and some don't plain and simple. When you look at some moments in Lebron's career you can see his team in crunch time and he would just be another body instead of having the mentality of saying I got this I'll take them out/no matter what I'm not losing. I found Lebron to be more scared of how people viewed him if he did lose and would sometimes just be that frozen player on the court or just hide away in the corner and just allow someone else to take that responsibility.

example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GP5y9Ab3Z4

You'll never see a moment of Scottie Pippen yelling at Jordan to take over a game or Kareem to Magic or Mchale to Bird. They know at the biggest moments that they have to step up and take the other team out (doesn't mean they have to take the shot just that they have to get it done one way or the other but usually taking the win or loss on there shoulders alone) I think this is just one of Lebrons weaknesses/flaws. Like Chronz has pointed out though this might have made him a worse player in the end (I don't believe that) but it's definately open to interpretation.

FlashBolt
08-11-2015, 03:20 PM
I think you are going a little to silly with that comment I think we all know what people are talking about when referring to a killer instinct it's a mentality that some players have and some don't plain and simple. When you look at some moments in Lebron's career you can see his team in crunch time and he would just be another body instead of having the mentality of saying I got this I'll take them out/no matter what I'm not losing. I found Lebron to be more scared of how people viewed him if he did lose and would sometimes just be that frozen player on the court or just hide away in the corner and just allow someone else to take that responsibility.

example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GP5y9Ab3Z4

You'll never see a moment of Scottie Pippen yelling at Jordan to take over a game or Kareem to Magic or Mchale to Bird. They know at the biggest moments that they have to step up and take the other team out (doesn't mean they have to take the shot just that they have to get it done one way or the other but usually taking the win or loss on there shoulders alone) I think this is just one of Lebrons weaknesses/flaws. Like Chronz has pointed out though this might have made him a worse player in the end (I don't believe that) but it's definately open to interpretation.

In all fairness, you have zero idea what they are talking about during that confrontation. And you can't compare Scottie vs Jordan. At that point, Jordan was the clear-cut #1 option. Wade+LeBron were both still very great players (1st/3rd in the NBA), and it was obvious that this wasn't your typical duo. I'm personally tired of the killer instinct debate. We can go back-and-forth over who wants to win more but LeBron is a competitor at the end of the day. You don't do what you did vs GSW and not be a competitor. You don't derail the coach and ask for the ball during the remaining seconds against the Bulls when you were having a tough night shooting, and then proceed to hit the game winner, if you don't have the "killer instinct." Quite frankly, it is a matter of their play styles more than anything. LeBron is more of a player who will look to pass and score interchangeably and that is where the killer instinct talk gets misconstrued. I'd much rather have a player look to score and then, pass to the open man if the shot isn't there. Then when you look at Kobe, he's just obsessed about basketball man. Maybe that has something to do with him being more mean mugged than other players of this generation but I personally think it's just his personality. He's been known to be a loner throughout his career. Not a problem with that at any stretch but could explain his approach to certain things.

I look at KD and see killer instinct all over him. A friend of mine says Westbrook is the alpha male. I completely disagree because they both are highly competitive. KD is a killer in clutch. Westbrook isn't necessarily a clutch player (which is why KD gets the ball during these moments), but he has a motor and toughness about him that makes people think he's more competitive. These two have different personalities but their approach is the same: they want to win.

ghettosean
08-11-2015, 04:17 PM
In all fairness, you have zero idea what they are talking about during that confrontation. And you can't compare Scottie vs Jordan. At that point, Jordan was the clear-cut #1 option. Wade+LeBron were both still very great players (1st/3rd in the NBA), and it was obvious that this wasn't your typical duo. I'm personally tired of the killer instinct debate. We can go back-and-forth over who wants to win more but LeBron is a competitor at the end of the day. You don't do what you did vs GSW and not be a competitor. You don't derail the coach and ask for the ball during the remaining seconds against the Bulls when you were having a tough night shooting, and then proceed to hit the game winner, if you don't have the "killer instinct." Quite frankly, it is a matter of their play styles more than anything. LeBron is more of a player who will look to pass and score interchangeably and that is where the killer instinct talk gets misconstrued. I'd much rather have a player look to score and then, pass to the open man if the shot isn't there. Then when you look at Kobe, he's just obsessed about basketball man. Maybe that has something to do with him being more mean mugged than other players of this generation but I personally think it's just his personality. He's been known to be a loner throughout his career. Not a problem with that at any stretch but could explain his approach to certain things.

I look at KD and see killer instinct all over him. A friend of mine says Westbrook is the alpha male. I completely disagree because they both are highly competitive. KD is a killer in clutch. Westbrook isn't necessarily a clutch player (which is why KD gets the ball during these moments), but he has a motor and toughness about him that makes people think he's more competitive. These two have different personalities but their approach is the same: they want to win.

To be fair right back after he threw the ball into a double team to Mario Chalmbers and turned the ball over (after making similar decisions) I don't think Wade was yelling "Lebron you're doing a great job". I'm not comparing the skill set in what I said I'm comparing who has the killer instinct and will do anything to win and basically in that clip you can see Wade digging into Lebron not giving 2 s#*ts about what people think about him or what he's doing not even caring about Lebron in that instant and his reputation/image/their friendship he just cared about winning and it was clear who had the killer instinct in that moment and it wasn't Lebron who was walking away for most of that confrontation acting very very passive. Again I'm not saying Lebron has not made any great plays when a game is on the line I'm just saying he has a reputation of being passive in big moments and there are examples of it. Actually we all know he disappeared in the 4th quarters of those finals and Wade was basically digging at him in the 4th quarter of game 3 "most likely" for not being aggressive and taking over in the 4th like the stats show/support in the finals that year.

Again I'm going to say that Lebron is probably the best player of this generation and what he did in this finals was great even though he lost but he's just had too many showings during his career where he became passive for me to say that he has a killer instinct (as I described in my last post).

This is just my opinion though everyone is free to have there own.

mngopher35
08-11-2015, 05:21 PM
I really think that people overrate the flaws of Kobe/Lebron on here. I don't know if it is something to do with the player (still playing), the fans (back and forth), or maybe just the media era but the negatives of their careers get brought up and exaggerated a lot to try and give them a stigma. There was a time when Magic was called tragic and multiple years where Bird just wasn't quite Bird in a series/playoff game but it gets overlooked when judging their careers. Maybe once these two retire it will be the same for them, we will see.

For Kobe we have seen him chuck games and even series away, no doubt. This gets him an all time label of chucker, hero ball, selfish etc. and while there is some validity to these arguments for the majority of his career he was helping his team at an all time level with his style of play. 2004 is the best example probably of him going to far and actually chucking but lets not act like he wasn't someone who could score at the same efficiency as other greats (even with those instances factored in). We have seen him shoot his team back into games as well so don't act like it didn't have its upsides at all. If he was truly all about himself or hero ball they wouldn't have won once Shaq left and he wouldn't have been a 5 apg player similar to Jordan in the triangle.

For Lebron we have seen him have some instances where he goes into defer mode way too much costing his team a game or series. 2011 finals is the best example of this. This gets him the label of choking/hiding/being scared etc. and once again while there is some validity due to a few instances, for the majority of his career he has been very clutch. You don't somehow just walk into being one of the best elimination game players if you hide in tough situations. You don't out shoot a "mentally strong" Kobe in the final 5 minutes of tight playoff games or final minute to tie or take the lead if you are scared of big moments.

I just think people over exaggerate these flaws to try and bring these guys down more than looking at the entire picture of their careers.

tredigs
08-11-2015, 05:41 PM
^To sum it up, it's because they're all time greats and are criticized in that sphere. Also, for example in reference to Kobe, the "chucker" mantra is very much in retaliation to the opposing mantra that he was the best/most-clutch player in the game and was the one you always want with the ball when it's closing time. They're narratives to combat opposing narratives.

mngopher35
08-11-2015, 05:56 PM
^To sum it up, it's because they're all time greats and are criticized in that sphere. Also, for example in reference to Kobe, the "chucker" mantra is very much in retaliation to the opposing mantra that he was the best/most-clutch player in the game and was the one you always want with the ball when it's closing time. They're narratives to combat opposing narratives.

I agree with the narratives part for sure, but it seems like people take it so far with these guys. Part of my point was that I think people focus on it more with these two than others. I have seen 2011 used as the sole reason Lebron isn't ahead of or as good as Bird when in reality we have seen Bird struggle to a large extent too and lose a series (not quite 2011 but still). Overall it gets over looked for Bird and he is known as one of the most clutch players ever if not the most (and I don't have a problem with that) while Lebron is forever scared.

It might just be that these two have a few really out there fans who go the extreme in the other direction causing a reaction as you said, I can see that (and probably done it). I just read through these last few posts on here and wanted to throw out my opinion. While Kobe has gone overboard chucking and Lebron has disappeared in a series that is a very small sample of their career. Kobe is about winning not just himself/putting up shots and Lebron is clutch by many metrics despite a few very obvious mishaps.

bucketss
08-11-2015, 06:27 PM
I think you are going a little to silly with that comment I think we all know what people are talking about when referring to a killer instinct it's a mentality that some players have and some don't plain and simple. When you look at some moments in Lebron's career you can see his team in crunch time and he would just be another body instead of having the mentality of saying I got this I'll take them out/no matter what I'm not losing. I found Lebron to be more scared of how people viewed him if he did lose and would sometimes just be that frozen player on the court or just hide away in the corner and just allow someone else to take that responsibility.

example:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7GP5y9Ab3Z4

You'll never see a moment of Scottie Pippen yelling at Jordan to take over a game or Kareem to Magic or Mchale to Bird. They know at the biggest moments that they have to step up and take the other team out (doesn't mean they have to take the shot just that they have to get it done one way or the other but usually taking the win or loss on there shoulders alone) I think this is just one of Lebrons weaknesses/flaws. Like Chronz has pointed out though this might have made him a worse player in the end (I don't believe that) but it's definately open to interpretation.

this would make sense if it was consistent. we have seen times lebron come up big, times he didn't. same with magic. you know they once called him tragic johnson?



Killer instinct?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaGSC96kMAI


killer instinct?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6szZ4hbumT0

Killer instinct?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxHJeW4Yc2o

killer instinct?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB58D1Em3Yo


does this killer instinct come and go for certain players?

Here we see tragic johnson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y

Jamiecballer
08-11-2015, 08:18 PM
Confidence goes up and down, players personalities evolve due to many factors. Is this really being questioned? Players question themselves from time to time, even the great ones.

flea
08-11-2015, 08:25 PM
I think criticisms of Lebron's game are legitimate, it's a testament to the rest of his well-rounded game that he's so good in spite of them. One of those is that he's not a great halfcourt ISO scorer as compared to other greats. Neither was Magic really, until late in his career. Magic had one of the 3 best halfcourt scorers ever and that was basically the entirety of the Lakers halfcourt offense for through like 2/3 of Magic's career.

That's not to say one isn't the better overall player, though. Most but the giant Laker homers would agree Bird is the better halfcourt scorer without question than Magic, but a lot of reasonable people think Magic is the better overall player (I personally don't). I think Dirk is a better halfcourt scorer than Lebron, but I don't think he's the better overall offensive player - though it's close.

ghettosean
08-11-2015, 09:11 PM
this would make sense if it was consistent. we have seen times lebron come up big, times he didn't. same with magic. you know they once called him tragic johnson?



Killer instinct?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaGSC96kMAI


killer instinct?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6szZ4hbumT0

Killer instinct?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxHJeW4Yc2o

killer instinct?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NB58D1Em3Yo


does this killer instinct come and go for certain players?

Here we see tragic johnson
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQ1bd2g3p1Y




(doesn't mean they have to take the shot just that they have to get it done one way or the other but usually taking the win or loss on there shoulders alone)

I'm just re-quoting that from my original post and Magic took responsibility for the loss it was on him he's even quoted in your video as taking responsibility for the loss but with Lebron for example this series. He just ran out of talent or in 2011 I'm not sure what he said I remember him saying this is there time (because Carlisle was saying that after they won) but he never too responsibility for his poor play.

Again to also quote:


When you look at some moments in Lebron's career you can see his team in crunch time and he would just be another body instead of having the mentality of saying I got this I'll take them out/no matter what I'm not losing.

Magic lost but he didn't just shy away from the moment this is the difference I'm talking about. If you want to look up Jordan I'm sure you can find him not making shots but he never shy'd away from the moment.

That's all I'm saying and lastly to repeat:

I did point out Lebron is one of the best players of this generation I just don't agree on your view point that's all. Despite his weaknesses as a player "Yes he has weaknesses" he's still a phenomenal player and the best in the game today.

Edit:

I just wanted to add that I could have added a bunch of videos of Lebron shooting up bricks (a hell of a lot) and him flopping all over the floor but I'm not going there because I'm not trying to force you to believe what I"m saying it's just my opinion and I'll just leave it at that I was really calling you out on you pretending you didn't know what killer instinct was or what it referred to with you silly question about it to the other poster. That was the reason for my original response.

Chronz
08-12-2015, 03:23 PM
One argument that makes no sense is the whole, he doesn't want the criticism of failing by taking the big shots and would rather be passive. Its as if those who say that think hes passing the criticism to whomever does get the final shot. But the truth is, Bron gets criticized even when he makes the right pass so I dont think he cares about criticism as much as you guys think because he knows hes gonna get regardless of his decision, criticism comes solely on if he wins or not.

ghettosean
08-12-2015, 04:31 PM
One argument that makes no sense is the whole, he doesn't want the criticism of failing by taking the big shots and would rather be passive. Its as if those who say that think hes passing the criticism to whomever does get the final shot. But the truth is, Bron gets criticized even when he makes the right pass so I dont think he cares about criticism as much as you guys think because he knows hes gonna get regardless of his decision, criticism comes solely on if he wins or not.

If your referring to some of the recent posts I agree no matter what Lebron does he will be criticized because he is the top player in basketball today but "I do believe" especially early years in Miami and before that he was completely afraid of failure and honestly a lot of people are in this world it doesn't have to be in pro sports it just is what it is there are people in this world who are afraid to fail and I would bunch Lebron in that group of people. He's been told since he was in high school that he's going to be the next Micheal Jordan and that's a lot of pressure to live up to having the bar set that high especially with the the entire world watching (which ties in with my point/thoughts regarding him being afraid of failure). I think it's a fallacy that if you get criticized often you are immune to criticism/critics.

Just lastly I want to point out that Lebron has definitely played more loose in the later part of his career IMO and he went to another level in these finals so I am in no way saying he's always shy'd away from big moments I'm just saying that he has definitely had his fair share of moments when he has in regard to the killer instinct debates from earlier.

Chronz
08-12-2015, 06:08 PM
If your referring to some of the recent posts I agree no matter what Lebron does he will be criticized because he is the top player in basketball today but "I do believe" especially early years in Miami and before that he was completely afraid of failure and honestly a lot of people are in this world it doesn't have to be in pro sports it just is what it is there are people in this world who are afraid to fail and I would bunch Lebron in that group of people. He's been told since he was in high school that he's going to be the next Micheal Jordan and that's a lot of pressure to live up to having the bar set that high especially with the the entire world watching (which ties in with my point/thoughts regarding him being afraid of failure). I think it's a fallacy that if you get criticized often you are immune to criticism/critics.

Just lastly I want to point out that Lebron has definitely played more loose in the later part of his career IMO and he went to another level in these finals so I am in no way saying he's always shy'd away from big moments I'm just saying that he has definitely had his fair share of moments when he has in regard to the killer instinct debates from earlier.
Why would he be afraid of failure if the criticism is going to come regardless? What I mean by that is that unless he wins, people will blame him no matter what. How is he doing himself any favors by playing with whatever tightness you conjured up?

I dont think hes played any looser, what you saw in these Finals is actually less impressive to me than what I saw him do in prior years with Cleveland. Again the only way to escape criticism is by winning and even then the man still gets some.

I just dont see the logic there. I really dont understand the concept you're trying to push here.

Chronz
08-12-2015, 06:21 PM
Also, killer instincts have gotten in the way of winning, so I really dont care about that argument. Its not a real critique. What matters is performance regardless of mindsets. Im focusing strictly on the idea that criticism is in any way influencing the way Bron plays/struggles. Put it this way, if it were, then how is playing passive helping him with that criticism? Doesn't it just give haters something else to point at, just the same as if he were taking a **** ton of shots. The guy gets criticized regardless, so why would he care? That was my point, not that hes immune to criticism, just that hes gonna receive it in some form anyways, the only way to prevent that is by winning. So why wouldn't he just play to win instead?

I mean you would have a great point if by being passive or "tight" people were absolving him of blame but that has NEVER happened so why would he care? He knows hes got the spotlight on him, there is no escaping it.

ghettosean
08-12-2015, 07:23 PM
Why would he be afraid of failure if the criticism is going to come regardless? What I mean by that is that unless he wins, people will blame him no matter what. How is he doing himself any favors by playing with whatever tightness you conjured up?


He didn't do himself any favors and I don't think anyone blames him for his most recent loss.


I dont think hes played any looser, what you saw in these Finals is actually less impressive to me than what I saw him do in prior years with Cleveland. Again the only way to escape criticism is by winning and even then the man still gets some.

We may have to differ on opinion here but I was impressed with how he played and how the Cav's got a few wins in there as well with the injuries to Kyrie and Love but we will have to agree to disagree on that.



I just dont see the logic there. I really dont understand the concept you're trying to push here.


I said I believe the man was afraid of failure like millions of people in this world what's so hard to understand about that? If I'm pushing a concept I suppose it would be that he's a human being and he has flaws just like everyone else.

ghettosean
08-12-2015, 07:32 PM
Also, killer instincts have gotten in the way of winning, so I really dont care about that argument. Its not a real critique. What matters is performance regardless of mindsets. Im focusing strictly on the idea that criticism is in any way influencing the way Bron plays/struggles. Put it this way, if it were, then how is playing passive helping him with that criticism? Doesn't it just give haters something else to point at, just the same as if he were taking a **** ton of shots. The guy gets criticized regardless, so why would he care? That was my point, not that hes immune to criticism, just that hes gonna receive it in some form anyways, the only way to prevent that is by winning. So why wouldn't he just play to win instead?

I mean you would have a great point if by being passive or "tight" people were absolving him of blame but that has NEVER happened so why would he care? He knows hes got the spotlight on him, there is no escaping it.

Depends on the circumstances for criticism like I mentioned in my last post I don't think anyone is criticizing him for his most recent finals loss I actually commend him for taking it to 6 games when losing Love and Kyrie. I also don't think he's has done himself any favors whenever he's been passive in the past.

Chronz
08-12-2015, 07:40 PM
He didn't do himself any favors and I don't think anyone blames him for his most recent loss.
So then why would he do it in order to escape the pressure/critique of "failing", when, as you've just admitted, it only further compounds that pressure in the minds of people like yourself.
And yeah, very few have blamed him (mostly due to injuries) but hes still been criticized for his relative inefficiency. Nobody blamed him when he played like **** vs the Spurs either tho.


We may have to differ on opinion here but I was impressed with how he played and how the Cav's got a few wins in there as well with the injuries to Kyrie and Love but we will have to agree to disagree on that.

I was impressed too, just not more impressed than what hes done in the past. Peak Bron wouldn't have struggled to this degree IMO. There used to be a time when he could blow by and overpower everyone, this lighter/slower Bron plays less defense than I've become accustomed to. Definitely disagree with you, taking more shots doesn't make for a better performance imo, nor does it absolve anyone more than the totality of their contributions.


I said I believe the man was afraid of failure like millions of people in this world what's so hard to understand about that? If I'm pushing a concept I suppose it would be that he's a human being and he has flaws just like everyone else.

I know what you said, Im trying to find the connection as to how it translates on and off the court. You are definitely pushing the concept, being human/flawed holds true for all of us so there is no distinction there. If thats your attempt at making things clearer then re-read my complaints.

How is he doing himself any favors? If hes scared of failure and the criticism that comes with it, why wouldn't he play in a manner that most absolves him? Simply put, if hes going to lose anyways, why would he give his haters more ammo? I think its more realistic to believe he doesn't care than to assume hes playing a certain way cuz of irrelevant criticism.

Chronz
08-12-2015, 07:45 PM
Depends on the circumstances for criticism like I mentioned in my last post I don't think anyone is criticizing him for his most recent finals loss I actually commend him for taking it to 6 games when losing Love and Kyrie. I also don't think he's has done himself any favors whenever he's been passive in the past.

So then why would he be passive as a result of fearing failure if hes STILL failing and STILL getting criticism. There is no payoff to your theory, it just doesn't add up. Like I said before as well, nobody really blamed him for his losses vs the Spurs either. I actually commended him for getting trash into the Finals whilst defeating a superior team. I also commend his performance vs the Magic as well.

Chronz
08-12-2015, 07:57 PM
To put it as simply as we can, gimme a run down of what you think Bron is thinking when hes showing this fear of failure. Since we're pretending to be in his head anyways, is he thinking, "**** we're gonna lose, maybe if I stop looking for my own shot people wont blame me".....? I really dont understand how you're making that connection of him fearing failure and how his play style exonerates anything in his mind. If there is no payoff to playing a certain style, why would he revert to that style? Hes going to get criticized regardless

ghettosean
08-12-2015, 09:09 PM
So then why would he be passive as a result of fearing failure if hes STILL failing and STILL getting criticism. There is no payoff to your theory, it just doesn't add up. Like I said before as well, nobody really blamed him for his losses vs the Spurs either. I actually commended him for getting trash into the Finals whilst defeating a superior team. I also commend his performance vs the Magic as well.

I understand you asking why as if I can give you a constructive answer but lots of people do illogical things when faced with different emotions so it's really hard for me to give you an answer and I don't think I can. There have been cases where people drive there car on the road and they swerve there entire car out of the way because they see a dog, cat, squirrel or other animal without looking because they are scared to hurt an animal without thinking of the consequences and hit another car or a person and get into an accident where is the logic in that. Another example is some people are afraid of mice and even with full knowledge that the mouse cannot and will not hurt them they can be so terrified they will scream, yell, jump up on a couch or chair and I can't find the logic in that either. All I can tell you is that some people just react differently in different situations not much more I can say on the subject.

ewing
08-12-2015, 09:45 PM
Why would he be afraid of failure if the criticism is going to come regardless? What I mean by that is that unless he wins, people will blame him no matter what. How is he doing himself any favors by playing with whatever tightness you conjured up?

I dont think hes played any looser, what you saw in these Finals is actually less impressive to me than what I saw him do in prior years with Cleveland. Again the only way to escape criticism is by winning and even then the man still gets some.

I just dont see the logic there. I really dont understand the concept you're trying to push here.



So when Pop gave him any 17 foot jump shot he wanted for a 1/2 an NBA finals and he just moved the ball it was b/c they were going to get a better look?

joedaheights
08-13-2015, 12:11 AM
I think if you're actually going to split hairs amongst the greatest of the great, this is a key point. You can analyze them according to talent. That, of course, is different than talking about what they did with talent. Wilt, for example, is as talented as Jordan, O'neal, James and Abdul-Jabbar were. But when you analyze a combination of stats and rings as a leader of your team, he's lower.

If you were going to go deeper than that, you'd start to look at, who could you pair with any type of talented player and get the same result. As great as Russell was, we know that he's the defensive god who must be paired with scorers. Bill Russell, Scottie Pippen and a bunch of jump shooters are not winning a ton of rings. Magic must be paired with scorers. You can't put Magic with two hall of famers who got there because of defense far more than offense and think they'd beat the Celtics. Any scenario where Magic has to take the ball right at the whole defense is bad. And Lebron is in that group. You'd have to be on drugs to watch the 2011 Finals and think otherwise.

If I'm picking in an all time draft and I don't know who will be there in round two, what type of player, I'm probably taking Jordan, then Kareem, then O'neal, then Hakeem. If I want to win rings. If big stats and narrow losses are my thing, I start thinking Wilt.

slashsnake
08-13-2015, 04:04 AM
One argument that makes no sense is the whole, he doesn't want the criticism of failing by taking the big shots and would rather be passive. Its as if those who say that think hes passing the criticism to whomever does get the final shot. But the truth is, Bron gets criticized even when he makes the right pass so I dont think he cares about criticism as much as you guys think because he knows hes gonna get regardless of his decision, criticism comes solely on if he wins or not.

Gotta agree with you Chronz.. I mean this playoffs, he just passed that guy there smoking a cigar in your sig in playoff game winning shots with 5 or fewer seconds on the clock (and tied him in game winning playoff shots at the buzzer).

Chronz
08-13-2015, 10:27 AM
So when Pop gave him any 17 foot jump shot he wanted for a 1/2 an NBA finals and he just moved the ball it was b/c they were going to get a better look?wot?
It's certainly not because he's thinking oh man i better pass to avoid the criticism. Lol.

Chronz
08-13-2015, 10:36 AM
I understand you asking why as if I can give you a constructive answer but lots of people do illogical things when faced with different emotions so it's really hard for me to give you an answer and I don't think I can. There have been cases where people drive there car on the road and they swerve there entire car out of the way because they see a dog, cat, squirrel or other animal without looking because they are scared to hurt an animal without thinking of the consequences and hit another car or a person and get into an accident where is the logic in that. Another example is some people are afraid of mice and even with full knowledge that the mouse cannot and will not hurt them they can be so terrified they will scream, yell, jump up on a couch or chair and I can't find the logic in that either. All I can tell you is that some people just react differently in different situations not much more I can say on the subject.
I guess i should thank you for at least trying to explain it to me but it makes even less sense now. Agreed on people doing/saying illogical things tho, i truly have no idea where you pulled this theory from. Surely we can agree the fact That it doesn't add up doesn't help your case and your examples were silly, bron stomps on the mouse that is basketball. And i swerve to avoid animals because I'm a great driver with sick peripherals for those who don't, they avoid the dog because of the potential payoff. There is no payoff in Bron doing what you theorize

ewing
08-13-2015, 10:42 AM
wot?
It's certainly not because he's thinking oh man i better pass to avoid the criticism. Lol.



He was a scared he would miss. if someone else bails him out, he avoids criticism and responsibility.

Hawkeye15
08-13-2015, 10:55 AM
He was a scared he would miss. if someone else bails him out, he avoids criticism and responsibility.

what world do you live in? LeBron could save a pregnant woman from a burning car and deliver her baby on the side of the road and get criticized about his technique doing it.

Chronz
08-13-2015, 11:18 AM
He was a scared he would miss. if someone else bails him out, he avoids criticism and responsibility.
But if they miss he's still getting the blame and not the guy who shot it.

ewing
08-13-2015, 11:29 AM
But if they miss he's still getting the blame and not the guy who shot it.


in this case he should. You are the MVP of the NBA and you pass up Js i would knock down all day you deserve criticism. Now LeBron has also had a bunch of moments where he played really big and he has done that using both the pass and the shot but jumbling words to make it seem like Bron has never played a little scared or shyed from responsibility on the court is BS

ewing
08-13-2015, 11:30 AM
what world do you live in? LeBron could save a pregnant woman from a burning car and deliver her baby on the side of the road and get criticized about his technique doing it.

You need a LeBron violin

Hawkeye15
08-13-2015, 12:32 PM
You need a LeBron violin

same could be said for any superstar athlete really....has nothing to do with LeBron, though he takes more heat than any athlete I have seen that hasn't raped, beat, stolen, killed, juiced, etc.

My point was, he can't avoid criticism under any circumstance, so why the hell would he care over the last number of years? Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

Chronz
08-13-2015, 01:29 PM
in this case he should. You are the MVP of the NBA and you pass up Js i would knock down all day you deserve criticism. Now LeBron has also had a bunch of moments where he played really big and he has done that using both the pass and the shot but jumbling words to make it seem like Bron has never played a little scared or shyed from responsibility on the court is BS
Being the mvp doesn't change ones talent/skill and i highly doubt you would knock them down given nba responsibilities. Sorry but i see struggles not fear of failure. Same as just about everyone save for mj.

ghettosean
08-13-2015, 02:26 PM
I guess i should thank you for at least trying to explain it to me but it makes even less sense now. Agreed on people doing/saying illogical things tho, i truly have no idea where you pulled this theory from. Surely we can agree the fact That it doesn't add up doesn't help your case and your examples were silly, bron stomps on the mouse that is basketball. And i swerve to avoid animals because I'm a great driver with sick peripherals for those who don't, they avoid the dog because of the potential payoff. There is no payoff in Bron doing what you theorize

I think you are trying a little too hard to bring logic into an emotional response as if there must be a benefit from it… What about the saying “he froze like a deer in the headlights” there is no logic for animal or man in certain scenarios like this as far as there responses go I just think you need to accept that and also accept that the man can be flawed I’m sorry I did say he’s probably the best player of this generation but IMO from observing his game over the years he has been passive and shy’d away from certain moments this is based off of my observations. I did acknowledge that I believe in the later part of his career he has loosened up a bit and this is my observation as well (both different observations at different points in his career... To me they are not theories). There are some in here that believe he has no flaws and what I’m saying is insane but everyone is entitled to their view on the subject this is mine.

The bolded made me laugh "sick peripherals"... lol... But to respond to specifically to that you are mentioning the scenario like everyone thinks things through regarding a payoff instead of just reacting based off of an emotional response. What about the deer in the headlights example I mentioned above some people freeze when faced with different emotions/situtations what is the payoff there?

ewing
08-13-2015, 02:26 PM
Being the mvp doesn't change ones talent/skill and i highly doubt you would knock them down given nba responsibilities. Sorry but i see struggles not fear of failure. Same as just about everyone save for mj.


yeah your not jumbling words to avoid any LeBron critique :rolleyes:

Chronz
08-13-2015, 02:46 PM
yeah your not jumbling words to avoid any LeBron critique :rolleyes:

So struggling isn't a critique, I have to agree to BS mind reading? Hes not a shooter, hes a playmaking attacker with a decent jumper. You have to recognize players for what they are and judge more by performance than couch psychiatry.

Come harder plz

ewing
08-13-2015, 02:49 PM
So struggling isn't a critique, I have to agree to BS mind reading? Hes not a shooter, hes a playmaking attacker with a decent jumper. You have to recognize players for what they are and judge more by performance than couch psychiatry.

Come harder plz


whoa whoa

Chronz
08-13-2015, 02:54 PM
I think you are trying a little too hard to bring logic into an emotional response as if there must be a benefit from it… What about the saying “he froze like a deer in the headlights” there is no logic for animal or man in certain scenarios like this as far as there responses go I just think you need to accept that and also accept that the man can be flawed I’m sorry I did say he’s probably the best player of this generation but IMO from observing his game over the years he has been passive and shy’d away from certain moments this is based off of my observations. I did acknowledge that I believe in the later part of his career he has loosened up a bit and this is my observation as well (both different observations at different points in his career... To me they are not theories). There are some in here that believe he has no flaws and what I’m saying is insane but everyone is entitled to their view on the subject this is mine.

The bolded made me laugh "sick peripherals"... lol... But to respond to specifically to that you are mentioning the scenario like everyone thinks things through regarding a payoff instead of just reacting based off of an emotional response. What about the deer in the headlights example I mentioned above some people freeze when faced with different emotions/situtations what is the payoff there?

Believe me when I say this, Im not trying at all. Its just your theory is so devoid of any form of logic that I dont have to try. You can observe what you want, I've observed the same player and I feel I have a better grasp on NBA history as a basis for comparison, cocky I know but **** it, I feel like you know me enough to understand Im not insulting you.

Players can struggle in a wide variety of forms. When I saw Magic Johnson miss EVERY single wide open 3pt jumper vs the Bulls in the Finals I never thought he was scared of failure or anything like that, just that he was struggling with his jumper and was looking to create in different ways.

You saying I need to accept hes flawed tells me everything I need to know about your motive/stance. I've ALREADY admitted hes flawed, show me a single human being who isnt. Again, there is no distinction there so spare me the empty accusations.

Got nothing on the deer in the headlights. I've never seen Bron act like a deer. Just cuz he doesn't chuck away doesn't mean hes fearful. Critics used to say the same thing about Bird passing up shots and deferring too much but thats why hes always said, its not about who scores, but who gets the ball to the scorer and hes a legit killer on the court. Bron loses confidence in his jumper and he defers to the hot hand when that happens, thats not fearing failure in my book, thats attempting to adapt to your situation. The guy plays to win, struggling to do so doesn't imply fear.

ewing
08-13-2015, 03:07 PM
Believe me when I say this, Im not trying at all. Its just your theory is so devoid of any form of logic that I dont have to try. You can observe what you want, I've observed the same player and I feel I have a better grasp on NBA history as a basis for comparison, cocky I know but **** it, I feel like you know me enough to understand Im not insulting you.

Players can struggle in a wide variety of forms. When I saw Magic Johnson miss EVERY single wide open 3pt jumper vs the Bulls in the Finals I never thought he was scared of failure or anything like that, just that he was struggling with his jumper and was looking to create in different ways.

You saying I need to accept hes flawed tells me everything I need to know about your motive/stance. I've ALREADY admitted hes flawed, show me a single human being who isnt. Again, there is no distinction there so spare me the empty accusations.

Got nothing on the deer in the headlights. I've never seen Bron act like a deer. Just cuz he doesn't chuck away doesn't mean hes fearful. Critics used to say the same thing about Bird passing up shots and deferring too much but thats why hes always said, its not about who scores, but who gets the ball to the scorer and hes a legit killer on the court. Bron loses confidence in his jumper and he defers to the hot hand when that happens, thats not fearing failure in my book, thats attempting to adapt to your situation. The guy plays to win, struggling to do so doesn't imply fear.

exactly, that is also called being scared of missing. dude has been shooting 75% from the line since he entered the league, an uncontested 18 footer is a shot he is supposed to take with confidence every time unless he sees a pass that leads directly to and even better look (dude open for a dunk). Passing up those kind of looks is not struggling its playing scared.

Jamiecballer
08-13-2015, 04:45 PM
He was a scared he would miss. if someone else bails him out, he avoids criticism and responsibility.
You guys are proof that criticism comes either way. I'm sure he found that out about 30 days into his career.

slashsnake
08-14-2015, 12:05 AM
exactly, that is also called being scared of missing. dude has been shooting 75% from the line since he entered the league, an uncontested 18 footer is a shot he is supposed to take with confidence every time unless he sees a pass that leads directly to and even better look (dude open for a dunk). Passing up those kind of looks is not struggling its playing scared.

A free throw isn't a mid range shot. Past 3 years.

Average free throw FG% 75%
Average mid range shot FG% 38%
Average OPEN mid range shot FG% 43.3%

Not sure it is just that... It is the weakest shot for him as it is for nearly everyone. Doesn't get the extra point of the three, and not a super consistent shot.

Why shoot an 18 footer he makes 38% of the time (dead on the league average), when he makes a 3 pointer 37% of the time and shoots 55% inside 10 feet? It's a shot where even the best shooter makes what? 47% of the time (dirk/bosh range there... Kobe/Durant is around 42%, Love around 44%)? It rarely draws fouls or and 1's. And it's his weakest part of Lebron's game. Why should he settle for that?



Why is Lebron left open from midrange? THAT'S THE SHOT THE OPPONENT WANT'S HIM TO TAKE. Unless you are an elite midrange shooter who struggles with 3 range, it's a bad shot. Teams know that isn't where he is great. Teams know that over the past 3 years, the wide open midrange shot (midrange where the defender is 5+ feet away) is made just 43.3% of the time across the league. Over the past 3 years, contested 3's have given more points per shot than open midrange shots. Lebron would have to be elite at the midrange for it to be worth him taking often. He shoots what? a 57% effective FG% the past 7 years. Why drag that way way down with a shot that is 14% lower? Doesn't draw fouls, doesn't force the defense to do anything, doesn't create movement and get your guys better chances on offensive boards, doesn't create mismatches, doesn't put you in a great spot to make plays.



It's the worst shot he can take. Sure, he's won NBA game 7's with that shot in the past, but that doesn't mean it's something they should make a key part of their offense... a-la the 76ers of the past few years.

Shying away from a shot that is likely to give you 14% fewer points than your average shot isn't shooting scared. That's smart basketball.

ewing
08-14-2015, 06:04 AM
A free throw isn't a mid range shot. Past 3 years.

Average free throw FG% 75%
Average mid range shot FG% 38%
Average OPEN mid range shot FG% 43.3%

Not sure it is just that... It is the weakest shot for him as it is for nearly everyone. Doesn't get the extra point of the three, and not a super consistent shot.

Why shoot an 18 footer he makes 38% of the time (dead on the league average), when he makes a 3 pointer 37% of the time and shoots 55% inside 10 feet? It's a shot where even the best shooter makes what? 47% of the time (dirk/bosh range there... Kobe/Durant is around 42%, Love around 44%)? It rarely draws fouls or and 1's. And it's his weakest part of Lebron's game. Why should he settle for that?



Why is Lebron left open from midrange? THAT'S THE SHOT THE OPPONENT WANT'S HIM TO TAKE. Unless you are an elite midrange shooter who struggles with 3 range, it's a bad shot. Teams know that isn't where he is great. Teams know that over the past 3 years, the wide open midrange shot (midrange where the defender is 5+ feet away) is made just 43.3% of the time across the league. Over the past 3 years, contested 3's have given more points per shot than open midrange shots. Lebron would have to be elite at the midrange for it to be worth him taking often. He shoots what? a 57% effective FG% the past 7 years. Why drag that way way down with a shot that is 14% lower? Doesn't draw fouls, doesn't force the defense to do anything, doesn't create movement and get your guys better chances on offensive boards, doesn't create mismatches, doesn't put you in a great spot to make plays.



It's the worst shot he can take. Sure, he's won NBA game 7's with that shot in the past, but that doesn't mean it's something they should make a key part of their offense... a-la the 76ers of the past few years.

Shying away from a shot that is likely to give you 14% fewer points than your average shot isn't shooting scared. That's smart basketball.

he makes you wet doesn't he? the Spurs game plan was start defending him at about 14 feet. You want to criticize him for making his catch at 18 and passing up that shot instead of from 23 be my guest Coach

Gander13SM
08-14-2015, 09:32 AM
I always thought of LBJ as being in the same group as Magic.

It's like when Jordan got his first shot at the chip. They made it out to be the best athlete and individual scorer (Jordan) VS the best team player (Magic).

I see nothing wrong with not being the first option when it comes to scoring. And being able to score but being more impactful at running the offense etc.

This doesn't make him less of a star or less of a player. If anything it makes him more of one.

Few people remember how the "others" on that 80s/90s bulls squad resented Jordan. How their peers would warn them about playing with him. How they would never get the ball.

Everyone of that level wants to play with LeBron.

LeBron might not be cut from the same cloth as some of the greats. But he's definitely had a similar impact and is of a comparable skill level.

In the words of Magic himself. A basket makes one guy happy. An assist makes two guys happy.

Gander13SM
08-14-2015, 09:38 AM
exactly, that is also called being scared of missing. dude has been shooting 75% from the line since he entered the league, an uncontested 18 footer is a shot he is supposed to take with confidence every time unless he sees a pass that leads directly to and even better look (dude open for a dunk). Passing up those kind of looks is not struggling its playing scared.

Or being unselfish.

And missing free throws? 75% is fine. 3 out of every 4? Nothing wrong with that. Can be better sure but maybe he's just not a great free throw shooter? Wouldn't be the first.

I don't see anyone calling Wilt or Shaq "scared". Smh.

LeBron understands the game at a level most people can only dream of. He's an incredibly intelligent basketball player. Once in a generation type smart. He plays smart basketball. And contrary to what people may believe, a lot of the time that means passing up shots.

Hawkeye15
08-14-2015, 10:16 AM
he makes you wet doesn't he? the Spurs game plan was start defending him at about 14 feet. You want to criticize him for making his catch at 18 and passing up that shot instead of from 23 be my guest Coach

yeah, that is the evolution of the game. Long 2's are a dying breed. For a reason. The percentage of making a 3 is basically the same as making a 18-19 footer. Why on earth would you shoot those? There are some archaic coaches like Flip Saunders who still love the long 2. But the highly efficient offenses don't shoot them often at all.

ghettosean
08-14-2015, 10:48 AM
yeah, that is the evolution of the game. Long 2's are a dying breed. For a reason. The percentage of making a 3 is basically the same as making a 18-19 footer. Why on earth would you shoot those? There are some archaic coaches like Flip Saunders who still love the long 2. But the highly efficient offenses don't shoot them often at all.

I don't agree with this post entirely because the poster is talking about uncontested shots... Honestly I don't think it matters what offense you are running if someone gives you an open shot with no signs of contesting you take the shot the closer the better but if you can hit a 3's or long 2's and you are open you take the shot.

Do you really disagree with that????

Tony_Starks
08-14-2015, 11:46 AM
I always thought of LBJ as being in the same group as Magic.

It's like when Jordan got his first shot at the chip. They made it out to be the best athlete and individual scorer (Jordan) VS the best team player (Magic).

I see nothing wrong with not being the first option when it comes to scoring. And being able to score but being more impactful at running the offense etc.

This doesn't make him less of a star or less of a player. If anything it makes him more of one.

Few people remember how the "others" on that 80s/90s bulls squad resented Jordan. How their peers would warn them about playing with him. How they would never get the ball.

Everyone of that level wants to play with LeBron.

LeBron might not be cut from the same cloth as some of the greats. But he's definitely had a similar impact and is of a comparable skill level.

In the words of Magic himself. A basket makes one guy happy. An assist makes two guys happy.



Bingo.

If you were to make a thread saying "Magic Johnson isn't a number one option" the answer would be "maybe not, but he is winner that does whatever it takes to make it happen. "

End of thread.

Why Lebron fans feel the need to constantly compare him to and validate him against players he is nothing like is beyond me.

He's in his own lane, why can't that be good enough?

bucketss
08-14-2015, 01:03 PM
he makes you wet doesn't he? the Spurs game plan was start defending him at about 14 feet. You want to criticize him for making his catch at 18 and passing up that shot instead of from 23 be my guest Coach

things people say when they lost a debate and frustration starts setting in.

ghettosean
08-14-2015, 01:33 PM
things people say when they lost a debate and frustration starts setting in.

LOL... This comment made me think of this song for some reason.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Yhy7WCLbts

Go get em dog!

Hawkeye15
08-14-2015, 01:37 PM
I don't agree with this post entirely because the poster is talking about uncontested shots... Honestly I don't think it matters what offense you are running if someone gives you an open shot with no signs of contesting you take the shot the closer the better but if you can hit a 3's or long 2's and you are open you take the shot.

Do you really disagree with that????

I don't disagree really, I would like to see the plays he is speaking of.

ewing
08-14-2015, 02:02 PM
things people say when they lost a debate and frustration starts setting in.

why b/c i didn't post a bunch of unrelated information?

FlashBolt
08-15-2015, 02:27 AM
Bingo.

If you were to make a thread saying "Magic Johnson isn't a number one option" the answer would be "maybe not, but he is winner that does whatever it takes to make it happen. "

End of thread.

Why Lebron fans feel the need to constantly compare him to and validate him against players he is nothing like is beyond me.

He's in his own lane, why can't that be good enough?

Well, there is a huge difference between LeBron and Magic as well. The only reason he gets compared to Magic is because people love comparisons. He's certainly not Jordan but he comes off more like Magic. Friendly guy, likes to pass, triple double threat, tall, great passer, and various other attributes. But he's also more diverse than Magic as well. LeBron might not be a great shooter but he's certainly better than Magic. He's a better defender and scorer as well. It's easy to say he's like Magic but we all know there are things he did Magic would never be able to do. I can't think of something Magic did better than Bron other than being more fluid with his passing (but a very different era of basketball being played would do that).

Gander13SM
08-15-2015, 04:40 AM
Well, there is a huge difference between LeBron and Magic as well. The only reason he gets compared to Magic is because people love comparisons. He's certainly not Jordan but he comes off more like Magic. Friendly guy, likes to pass, triple double threat, tall, great passer, and various other attributes. But he's also more diverse than Magic as well. LeBron might not be a great shooter but he's certainly better than Magic. He's a better defender and scorer as well. It's easy to say he's like Magic but we all know there are things he did Magic would never be able to do. I can't think of something Magic did better than Bron other than being more fluid with his passing (but a very different era of basketball being played would do that).

It's true people do love comparisons. And I think it's unfair that every star or elite scorer is automatically compared to Jordan.

But my favourite comparison I've ever heard for LeBron is "Magic, mixed in with a little Pippen and a jump shot" I saw someone on another forum say it once. Made me chuckle. People really do love a comparison.

At the end of the day this is what I see:

Scoring ability. Elite but not the greatest.
Passing. Best passing forward of all time.
Efficiency. God like.
Defense. Great.
Rebounding. Above average. But not great.


I don't care what anyone says. When ranking players in regards to most talented or even most versatile. LeBron is easily top 5 all time. Easily.

slashsnake
08-15-2015, 06:10 AM
It's true people do love comparisons. And I think it's unfair that every star or elite scorer is automatically compared to Jordan.

But my favourite comparison I've ever heard for LeBron is "Magic, mixed in with a little Pippen and a jump shot" I saw someone on another forum say it once. Made me chuckle. People really do love a comparison.

At the end of the day this is what I see:

Scoring ability. Elite but not the greatest.
Passing. Best passing forward of all time.
Efficiency. God like.
Defense. Great.
Rebounding. Above average. But not great.


I don't care what anyone says. When ranking players in regards to most talented or even most versatile. LeBron is easily top 5 all time. Easily.

Rebounds is so tough, because when you see him have to do it... wow he is just dominant on the boards. I think it's something where playing more SF takes him away from the interior so he doesn't grab piles, but

Put it this way.. he just had a playoff run he averaged 11.5 boards a game, and 13.3 boards a game in the finals. It's tough for me to name a SF who could do that in recent times.

Of the 6 game finals, he had more boards than Barkley, Malone (twice), McHale, Olajuwon, Garnett, Pau..

In the post-season his career rebound average is right there with Marcus Camby. Ahead of Parish, Horace Grant, Divac, Stoudemire, Chandler, Blake Horford, Webber, Hibbert, Dale Davis...

Not something he can maintain a full season, but wow, that is impressive.