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5ass
07-28-2015, 02:02 PM
What teams do you see not having a very bright future. Ones that aren't good, have little room for improvement, and you just don't believe in what they're doing. I think there are two teams that are obvious choices, but I want to know what PSD thinks. Choose your teams and explain why.

Don't get mad if your team gets mentioned, instead try to understand the reasons.

jerellh528
07-28-2015, 02:09 PM
Without thinking about it, Kings come to mind.

Blitzace137
07-28-2015, 02:12 PM
Nets since they traded away multiple future picks.

Sactown
07-28-2015, 02:13 PM
What teams do you see not having a very bright future. Ones that aren't good, have little room for improvement, and you just don't believe in what they're doing. I think there are two teams that are obvious choices, but I want to know what PSD thinks. Choose your teams and explain why.

Don't get mad if your team gets mentioned, instead try to understand the reasons.

Denver; I think they're stuck between, should we win now or try to rebuild? Mudiay is a great step in the right direction if he develops a jump shot , but Wilson Gallo extensions seem like a shot a mediocrity. Seems like there's a lack of continuity in the FO (love Mike Malone though)

New York; with Phil Jackson making his future with the Knicks unknown (said he'd like to retire before playing out his entire contract) Melo getting older and only Porzingas as your rebuilding piece seems like they're headed for mediocrity for two years then hitting the restart button again.

Sactown
07-28-2015, 02:14 PM
Actually Brooklyn has to be the most ****ed team

No young talent, no future draft picks, injured or old veterans who aren't going to get better ...

cmellofan15
07-28-2015, 02:18 PM
Its been brooklyn since they moved to brooklyn lol

nycericanguy
07-28-2015, 02:19 PM
Nets & Kings

SportsFanatic10
07-28-2015, 02:20 PM
Nets and Lakers. Lakers will get it right and get back on track eventually because of the allure of LA and the fact they're a storied franchise, but I think it will take a while, and I don't like their direction right now.

2-ONE-5
07-28-2015, 02:26 PM
Nets have been the answer for about 3 years now lol.

Dallas is in a bad spot too i think going forward. They should be competitive enough this year but when Dirk retries then what?

CityofTreez
07-28-2015, 02:32 PM
Blazers-starting anew

Pistons-lost Monroe, and gained Baynes. I don't know if that was a replacement but their frontcourt declined. I'm not a fan of the sporadic Ersan signing, and Reggie Jackson with that bloated contract looks miserable. I'm not sure when Jennings is 100% healthy but that will create some animosity between them. I just am not a fan of their offseason, so I don't know if they are in a worse situation.

Kings - I have faith that they can contend, but one can only hope. People can dog us for signing Rondo and Wes/Monte smitting us for lower contracts. I'm happy they passed on us for that matter.

Dallas - they are in rebuild mode now IMO because they are going nowhere near the Title. After losing Chandler, Monte, and the supposed Jordan, they worsened. I'm also not a huge fan of Wes, and they could very well not make the playoffs. The only thing that keeps them in contention is Carlisle, but they're getting old. After this season, they will have lingering problems with the future.

Lakers - they are the definition of "hope." After Kobe they have no star power, just raw athleticism that is a bunch of question marks. Once Kobe is gone (which I think after this year) they will no longer be the Lakers of old. You have to win to attract the big FA's, and if they don't win, then they could suffer for that. They could keep losing and get high draft picks, but that takes time and frustration will commence.

Sixers - they've tanked 2-3 years now and drafted 3 bigs, minus another year without Embiid. There roster may have improved, but they need another 2-3 years of tanking IMO, and that is another hope upon a shining star. That whole, winning makes everything better, but my only concern is I don't know when that could actually come to fruition.

Just my take, agree or disagree as you wish.

phantasyyy
07-28-2015, 02:33 PM
I'd venture to say.. the Hornets & Nets.

Hornets: the just don't have the core young pieces to build upon, with the upside I don't think-minus Kaminsky. Unless you still count Kemba as a player with high upside, he is more or less the same player without the consistent jump shot. Add to the fact that I his new deal is coming into effect @12m. MKG is a really good defensive player but his jumpshot is still broken and his inability to make an impact on the offensive side is something they need imrpovement on. They made some solid moves to get move in the present time, but traded away young assets in Hendo and Vonleh. There still isn't enough perimeter shooting to balance their lineups and Jefferson getting up there in age. They won't be bad enough to get a high pick in the lottery and wont be good enough to get a higher seed even in the dreaded Eastern Conference. Kemba Batum, MKG, Kaminsky, Jefferson. Also in my opinion Stephenson for Hawes was an absolutely terrible trade.. 1yr guaranteed vs 3 yr guaranteed for two guys that struggled greatly the previous season. Also Hawes and Kaminsky have overlapping abilities and the still have Zeller on the roster.

Nets This one is pretty easy I guess, they spent a huge amount on bringing in Pierce and Garnett, all while mortgaging their future by trading 100000 draft picks(first rounders too). They let go of their "star" in Williams, and also their shooters in Anderson and Mirza. There is no use in tanking this season either since their pick is owed to Boston in 16'. A lineup up Jack/Joe/?/Young/Lopez just isn't good enough to contend for a playoff spot and even if they do slip in a first round sweep at the hands of the Cavs wouldn't be successful at all.. They have no young players, no picks, and their team just isn't good enough at this moment or in the foreseeable future. The only plus I can see is them having Johnson's monstrous 25m contract off the books at seasons end. Maybe they'll reel in a big fish...

Pierzynski4Prez
07-28-2015, 02:37 PM
With the jump in the cap, it's tough to say any team will be in a tough position

MonroeFAN
07-28-2015, 02:46 PM
Nets and celtics for me, followed by the Kings.

Nets for obvious reasons. Celtics just because I don't understand their philosophy and their current roster seems extremely mediocre and devoid of basically any star talent.

The Kings are just a dysfunctional organization.

Slug3
07-28-2015, 03:19 PM
I wouldn't really be ready to say the Lakers. I don't know the exact number, but they could have like 70+ million free next year to go pretty crazy. If anyone wanted to really do a big 3 again that would probably be the place to start it. Now if after next free agency they don't get anyone really good or big, I would think that it could be a little bit before they do then.

Slug3
07-28-2015, 03:21 PM
Nets and celtics for me, followed by the Kings.

Nets for obvious reasons. Celtics just because I don't understand their philosophy and their current roster seems extremely mediocre and devoid of basically any star talent.

The Kings are just a dysfunctional organization.

I don't really know about the Celtics. I mean they have a few picks from the Nets, and the worse the nets do the better it is for Boston to get a high draft pick.

mngopher35
07-28-2015, 03:21 PM
Nets Kings and Dallas came to mind first. Hornets might be a decent pick as well since they seem to have some talent but may be stuck in mediocrity for a while.

mngopher35
07-28-2015, 03:31 PM
I wouldn't really be ready to say the Lakers. I don't know the exact number, but they could have like 70+ million free next year to go pretty crazy. If anyone wanted to really do a big 3 again that would probably be the place to start it. Now if after next free agency they don't get anyone really good or big, I would think that it could be a little bit before they do then.


I don't really know about the Celtics. I mean they have a few picks from the Nets, and the worse the nets do the better it is for Boston to get a high draft pick.

I'm with you on both of these teams not being quite on this list. Lakers do have some good young talent (Russell, Clarkson, Randle) with a lot of cap space coming up. Hard to say they are in a bad spot until they actually strike out or spend poorly.

Celtics are kind of stuck with a mediocre team right now but they have acquired picks/assets/young talent and continue to search for opportunities to get a star type. I believe they tried trading a lot to move up in the draft and couldn't make it work but still have those assets for when something is available (nets picks and the Dallas one this year could really help). I really like their coach as well. Lastly, no bad contracts moving forward with a lot of cheap players.

MonroeFAN
07-28-2015, 03:33 PM
Nets and celtics for me, followed by the Kings.

Nets for obvious reasons. Celtics just because I don't understand their philosophy and their current roster seems extremely mediocre and devoid of basically any star talent.

The Kings are just a dysfunctional organization.

I don't really know about the Celtics. I mean they have a few picks from the Nets, and the worse the nets do the better it is for Boston to get a high draft pick.

When's the last time Boston has drafted a good basketball player? Al Jefferson?

Their roster is really nasty. Good coaching led them to the playoffs, but everyone got better while they signed a bunch of rotational (situational even) players. Not impressed.

phantasyyy
07-28-2015, 04:19 PM
When's the last time Boston has drafted a good basketball player? Al Jefferson?

Their roster is really nasty. Good coaching led them to the playoffs, but everyone got better while they signed a bunch of rotational (situational even) players. Not impressed.

They still have assets. They're roster just have any great players but everyone is solid enough where I think they'll try to consolidate good players into one great player.

They have plenty of players on cap friendly deals in:
Thomas - 7m
Bradley -8m
Smart - Rookie
Olynyk - Rookie
Rozier - Rookie
Turner - 3.4m albeit expiring
Zeller - Rookie albeit expiring
Sully - Rookie albeit expiring

So they have young pieces to build around.. now its all about attracting that big name to build around(harder than stated) but still you can see the foundation in place. Not to mention the have a boatload of capspace also next year so they are in a good position. They have all their picks + the Nets as well.

David lee is expiring @15m, Johnson's contract is non-guaranteed @12m, and best of all they have Brad Stevens who'll continue to get better as a coach along with the younger players.

MonroeFAN
07-28-2015, 04:27 PM
I'm not questioning their ability to put together a roster that makes sense financially. When are they going to add talent? None of these players have star potential outside of IT who is undersized like woah.

You can bet on development all you want, but most of their talent looks like it's moving in slow motion. I basically wouldn't take any of those players to be starters on my team now or ever.

So again, what good are the picks when they can't draft? They're basically in limbo. Outside of the big 3, that organization has been the worst of the last 20 years quite easily.

A big time free agent can turn any team around.

phantasyyy
07-28-2015, 04:40 PM
I'm not questioning their ability to put together a roster that makes sense financially. When are they going to add talent? None of these players have star potential outside of IT who is undersized like woah.

You can bet on development all you want, but most of their talent looks like it's moving in slow motion. I basically wouldn't take any of those players to be starters on my team now or ever.

So again, what good are the picks when they can't draft? They're basically in limbo. Outside of the big 3, that organization has been the worst of the last 20 years quite easily.



Its easy to criticize their draft selections seeing as how they've had one top10 pick(6th) once since 2008 and in retrospect you could probably only argue Payton would've been a better pick, but Smart is a defensive menace. Outside of that pick they haven't been in the lottery at all, so obviously its harder to grab a superstar picking outside the lottery. Having said, how many teams draft stars within that selection?

Sully @21 and Bradley @19 are two great picks. Thornton @45.

They're solid players, the team essentially gutted their entire roster the last two seasons to get cap flexibility and young assets. Why continue to build around a treadmill team of Pierce, Garnett and Rondo then, experiencing a 2nd round bounce at best?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-28-2015, 08:41 PM
Nets and Lakers. Lakers will get it right and get back on track eventually because of the allure of LA and the fact they're a storied franchise, but I think it will take a while, and I don't like their direction right now.

How ignorant due you sound right now. I know you hate on the lakers so it's no surprise. Next year everything will be back to normal for the Lakers

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-28-2015, 08:42 PM
I wouldn't really be ready to say the Lakers. I don't know the exact number, but they could have like 70+ million free next year to go pretty crazy. If anyone wanted to really do a big 3 again that would probably be the place to start it. Now if after next free agency they don't get anyone really good or big, I would think that it could be a little bit before they do then.

This

Teeboy1487
07-28-2015, 09:58 PM
How ignorant due you sound right now. I know you hate on the lakers so it's no surprise. Next year everything will be back to normal for the Lakers

Lakers certainly aren't in the worst shape, but alot of questions surround the team next year. Will the young core for the Lakers pan out (that will take years to answer)? Will Hibbert return to form? Will Kobe stay healthy and buy into a lesser role? Will Young and Williams coexist off the bench? What are the Lakers identity? How will all the pieces fit together with alot of ball dominant players on the roster? Is Byron Scott the answer? I don't see us returning back to "normal" anytime soon. I'm optimistic, but realistic at the same time. However, we are certainly not in the worst position. Maybe two years ago.

JasonJohnHorn
07-28-2015, 10:18 PM
Brooklyn is in bad shape, but I gotta say I'm worried about the Pistons. I'm not sure SVG has what it takes. The Jackson contract was way to rich. He let a top free agent go for nothing (which pretty much means a lottery season just went down the toilet), and last season he actually had a lower winning percentage than Cheeks did the year before.

There's a couple of interesting pick ups he's made, but it just seems like we've taken a step back, and now are preparing to take another step back. It's been seven years since we won a plyaoff game, and six years since we've been in the playoffs. And it doesn't look like that is changing next year.

5ass
07-28-2015, 10:39 PM
Brooklyn is in bad shape, but I gotta say I'm worried about the Pistons. I'm not sure SVG has what it takes. The Jackson contract was way to rich. He let a top free agent go for nothing (which pretty much means a lottery season just went down the toilet), and last season he actually had a lower winning percentage than Cheeks did the year before.

There's a couple of interesting pick ups he's made, but it just seems like we've taken a step back, and now are preparing to take another step back. It's been seven years since we won a plyaoff game, and six years since we've been in the playoffs. And it doesn't look like that is changing next year.

Have a little faith. You can't expect him to turn a dysfunctional mess into a contender in one year, but he turned them into a legit team. I also don't see a contender with the current roster, but at least he'll be able to get the most out of this team and have them fighting for the play offs. If they just make the play offs, the future looks good. What if Johnson turns into an all star in a couple of years?

bucketss
07-28-2015, 11:31 PM
nets: no picks, no young core. by far in the worst position in the league imo.

lakers: i think they made a huge draft mistake this year, passed up on a okafor apparently because they were certain they would sign LA,or another big man. no pick this year, and outside of clarkson i really hate everything about this team. long hill to climb their way back into the western conf. playoff picture.

knicks: aging superstar, a huge project in zingis who i think will be good, but nowhere near how as good as some are hyping him up to be. again no pick this year, i don't trust phils decision making. not sure why they didn't sign ndour he looked real good, and seems to be much better than someone like langston galloway.

FOXHOUND
07-29-2015, 01:15 AM
Nets are in by far the worst spot - Old roster that isn't good, no good young talent and very little draft picks for a good while. Billy King is STILL their GM somehow, from top to bottom they really are a mess.

For the second team, that's a tricky one.

I think Dallas is pretty screwed in the short term and into the rebuild in the post-Dirk world, but as long as Mark Cuban is the owner and they have a coach like Rick Carlisle they will always be in a better position than many teams.

Sacramento's new owner, front office situation and George Karl seems like a huge disaster. At the same time, as long as they have a young player like Cousins to build around they still won't be in as bad shape as a few teams.

Philly, I just completely hate what they're doing. They have Okafor and Noel to build around, but no talent for them to actually grow and develop with. And on top of that, still no idea if either are even in their long term tanking plans. They dumped MCW because he couldn't shoot and didn't have the realistic potential to become a dominant star, who's to say the same doesn't happen with Noel with his lack of offense or Okafor with his lack of defense?

I would say,

Worst - Nets BY FAR
2nd worst - Philly

lamzoka
07-29-2015, 01:21 AM
Nets... End of Thread

Bruno
07-29-2015, 02:16 AM
The Nets don't get a first round draft pick until 2019. even the Thunder who rebuilt perfectly didn't make the playoffs in the west until Durants third season. that means best case scenario the Nets can make a stab for the 2022 post-season.

the nets by far then a few other teams are in the discussion on the second tier.

nickdymez
07-29-2015, 02:24 AM
Nets and Lakers. Lakers will get it right and get back on track eventually because of the allure of LA and the fact they're a storied franchise, but I think it will take a while, and I don't like their direction right now.

Dumb stupid post

Kyben36
07-29-2015, 03:39 AM
Without thinking about it, Kings come to mind.

Kings have been for a while,

Right now, i will say the POrtland, they have too much tallent to suck, but too little tallent to compete

Boston needs to do something, otherwise, they will be stuck between good enough, but not contender

Brooklyn, i think they have finally given up though

Denver has allways been kinda middle of the pack along with Pheonix and Utah

the point is, your not going to get better finishing two spots out of the playoffs, you need tallent, at least comit to tanking like the 76ers, otherwise, you will be in a nba Purgatory for a while, and trust me, i watched the bulls, and they were that from 2000-2007.

Lakers are also in a bad situation, but i actually think that Russell and Randall will do pretty good as core peices in the future.

IBleedPurple
07-29-2015, 07:11 AM
Brooklyn looks bad, really bad. No surprise even the owner wants out.

76ers arent great, Portland, Denver as well. I wanted the Nuggets to have a fire sale and just leave Nurkic, Mudiay, and sign a bunch of crackheads. Hate hoping to lose, but NBA purgatory is no secret.

basch152
07-29-2015, 07:28 AM
Blazers-starting anew

Pistons-lost Monroe, and gained Baynes. I don't know if that was a replacement but their frontcourt declined. I'm not a fan of the sporadic Ersan signing, and Reggie Jackson with that bloated contract looks miserable. I'm not sure when Jennings is 100% healthy but that will create some animosity between them. I just am not a fan of their offseason, so I don't know if they are in a worse situation.

Kings - I have faith that they can contend, but one can only hope. People can dog us for signing Rondo and Wes/Monte smitting us for lower contracts. I'm happy they passed on us for that matter.

Dallas - they are in rebuild mode now IMO because they are going nowhere near the Title. After losing Chandler, Monte, and the supposed Jordan, they worsened. I'm also not a huge fan of Wes, and they could very well not make the playoffs. The only thing that keeps them in contention is Carlisle, but they're getting old. After this season, they will have lingering problems with the future.

Lakers - they are the definition of "hope." After Kobe they have no star power, just raw athleticism that is a bunch of question marks. Once Kobe is gone (which I think after this year) they will no longer be the Lakers of old. You have to win to attract the big FA's, and if they don't win, then they could suffer for that. They could keep losing and get high draft picks, but that takes time and frustration will commence.

Sixers - they've tanked 2-3 years now and drafted 3 bigs, minus another year without Embiid. There roster may have improved, but they need another 2-3 years of tanking IMO, and that is another hope upon a shining star. That whole, winning makes everything better, but my only concern is I don't know when that could actually come to fruition.

Just my take, agree or disagree as you wish.
Your view of the pistons is incredibly misguided.

Monroe and drummond didnt fit, it has been shown that when drummond plays with a more spread out court, with a stretch 4 (ilyasova) he plays like a superstar, compared to with monroe and a crowded paint where he still pkays great, just not as good.

Pretty much monroe or drummond, choice was easy.

More than that, our starting lineup is one of the youngest in the nba, filled with young talent that is developing, but apparently they're in one of the worst positions in the nba? How in the world does that even make sense?

mike_noodles
07-29-2015, 07:44 AM
Knicks and Nets look to be in the worst position as far as I'm concerned.

MonroeFAN
07-29-2015, 10:19 AM
Its easy to criticize their draft selections seeing as how they've had one top10 pick(6th) once since 2008 and in retrospect you could probably only argue Payton would've been a better pick, but Smart is a defensive menace. Outside of that pick they haven't been in the lottery at all, so obviously its harder to grab a superstar picking outside the lottery. Having said, how many teams draft stars within that selection?

Sully @21 and Bradley @19 are two great picks. Thornton @45.

They're solid players, the team essentially gutted their entire roster the last two seasons to get cap flexibility and young assets. Why continue to build around a treadmill team of Pierce, Garnett and Rondo then, experiencing a 2nd round bounce at best?

I don't understand, that is the exact reason I have selected them. Not including the big 3, this team has been bad since before I can remember. They had an ok run in a terrible eastern conference in the early 2000's and never had a chance of winning anything. Why don't they have lotto picks? They have no clear cut solution and no direction still. Every player you mentioned in this post had an average (combined) FG% of 41% this last season. Defense represents no more than 50% of what it takes to build a good basketball team in this day and age. Honestly, it's becoming less and less important. At some point they need to land some players with talent, and not just hustle guys.

JEDean89
07-29-2015, 11:30 AM
Nets are in the worst position period. No star, no young star, either get the worst of two picks or trade their picks for years, bloated contracts, injury prone players. Thats a tough situation to overcome there.

Knicks are screwed if this year doesn't work out. Melo will want to bounce and with no draft pick this offseason, it will be hard to rebuild. Getting Grant and Porzingis this offseason can jumpstart a potential rebuild though and they have guys on good contracts. If Melo gets back to all nba form then his contract becomes stupidly valuable these next two offseasons (when everyone will have money).

Pacers are a team I think are in serious trouble. Paul George will likely want out if they can't get some help. Turner and Monte are not what the doctor ordered. They are too weak to contend, but too strong to tank. My guess is we see George in the purple and gold at some point.

Mavs. Dirk is too old and good to tank with. It's a bad way to send him out. another team that can't realistically contend next year, but is too good to get a high draft pick.

KnicksorBust
07-29-2015, 11:48 AM
I am hesitant to put teams with young studs on this list. Really how can people proclaim a team with Demarcus Cousins or Andre Drummond as having the worst situation?

phantasyyy
07-29-2015, 12:33 PM
I don't understand, that is the exact reason I have selected them. Not including the big 3, this team has been bad since before I can remember. They had an ok run in a terrible eastern conference in the early 2000's and never had a chance of winning anything. Why don't they have lotto picks? They have no clear cut solution and no direction still. Every player you mentioned in this post had an average (combined) FG% of 41% this last season. Defense represents no more than 50% of what it takes to build a good basketball team in this day and age. Honestly, it's becoming less and less important. At some point they need to land some players with talent, and not just hustle guys.

Lol you discredit the big 3 era, yet being a pistons fan I'm guessing you pride yourself on the Billups era than? Sure they weren't competitive pre-big 3 but you can make the argument that since they weren't competitive it allowed them to attain the assets to make the trades for both KG and Ray Ray.

You talk about not being able to make any noise through the draft yet your pistons have been irrelevant ever since billups got traded. Since 10' you guys have been in the lottery and who do you have to show for it in terms of your draft picks? In regards to not having a solution or direction I think its pretty clear to all fans that the Celtics are rebuilding.. they were poised to tank after getting rid of the big 3(rondo), yet the roster showed enough fight to bounce back and have the second best record post-allstar in the eastern conference and secure that playoff spot. You can't discredit the team for playing hard and getting playoff experience for their young players.

Andre Drummond. and its not like it was a hard pick any ways, many experts didn't expect him to fall that far to #9.

KCP didn't live up to potential
You guys traded Middleton after 1 year
Knight was let go after 2 years for Jennings of all people.. - pretty much a waste since you guys gave Jackson that horrendous 80m contract.
You guys just lost Monroe for nothing.
Daye was a bust
And not 1 second round pick is still on that team.

4 Top 10 draft picks in the last 5 years, yet your team still cant even sniff the playoffs (5 including this year, though Stanley Johnson is a beast).

Also in the bolded.. how much is defense suppose to represent than if not 50%? lol Theres two sides of the ball offense and defense. And if defense is becoming less and less important why are we seeing the most dominant defensive teams win the chip year in and year out? Shoot, being a pistons fan you should know the value of defense seeing as how your 04' chip was based on the defensive chops.

phantasyyy
07-29-2015, 12:36 PM
Also if it wasn't for defensive presence, Drummond would be scrub, so idk why you try to discredit half the game lol.

basch152
07-29-2015, 12:56 PM
Lol you discredit the big 3 era, yet being a pistons fan I'm guessing you pride yourself on the Billups era than? Sure they weren't competitive pre-big 3 but you can make the argument that since they weren't competitive it allowed them to attain the assets to make the trades for both KG and Ray Ray.

You talk about not being able to make any noise through the draft yet your pistons have been irrelevant ever since billups got traded. Since 10' you guys have been in the lottery and who do you have to show for it in terms of your draft picks? In regards to not having a solution or direction I think its pretty clear to all fans that the Celtics are rebuilding.. they were poised to tank after getting rid of the big 3(rondo), yet the roster showed enough fight to bounce back and have the second best record post-allstar in the eastern conference and secure that playoff spot. You can't discredit the team for playing hard and getting playoff experience for their young players.

Andre Drummond. and its not like it was a hard pick any ways, many experts didn't expect him to fall that far to #9.

KCP didn't live up to potential
You guys traded Middleton after 1 year
Knight was let go after 2 years for Jennings of all people.. - pretty much a waste since you guys gave Jackson that horrendous 80m contract.
You guys just lost Monroe for nothing.
Daye was a bust
And not 1 second round pick is still on that team.

4 Top 10 draft picks in the last 5 years, yet your team still cant even sniff the playoffs (5 including this year, though Stanley Johnson is a beast).

Also in the bolded.. how much is defense suppose to represent than if not 50%? lol Theres two sides of the ball offense and defense. And if defense is becoming less and less important why are we seeing the most dominant defensive teams win the chip year in and year out? Shoot, being a pistons fan you should know the value of defense seeing as how your 04' chip was based on the defensive chops.

Hiw has kcp "not lived up to potential". It's his second year? Are you even seriously right now? Dumb comment.

We have one of the youngest starting lineups in nba, and they all have great potential.


Also if it wasn't for defensive presence, Drummond would be scrub, so idk why you try to discredit half the game lol.
You obviously dont watch drummond play.

nycericanguy
07-29-2015, 12:57 PM
DET is fine, they made some questionable moves but they have a good young core now with Drummond, RJ & Stanley... not to mention solid players like IIyasova, KCP...

Knicks are fine too, just because they traded their 2016 pick doesn't mean they are doomed. They got 2 picks last draft including Grant who was taken just outside the lottery and could end up being a bigger Reggie Jackson. Kristaps looks good so far and Lopez at C in still young enough to grow with the team. Lopez & KP upfront has the potential to be an incredibly long, athletic frontline. Even with Melo's inevitable decline, he should still be a 20ppg scorer and his contract at $24m is looking like a bargain now with guys like Gallinairi getting $17m per, Matthews 17.5m and Carroll $15m per.

DEN is also fine, Nurkic, Mudiay and Gallo is a good building core and they could always trade Chandler & Gallo for assets down the line.

Really BK is the most hopeless team right now and it's not even close, I guess that's why even DoMeFavors has disappeared. Their entire forum is actually gone...lol

phantasyyy
07-29-2015, 01:06 PM
Hiw has kcp "not lived up to potential". It's his second year? Are you even seriously right now? Dumb comment.

We have one of the youngest starting lineups in nba, and they all have great potential.


You obviously dont watch drummond play.

KCP 31.5m 12.7ppg/3rpg/1apg on a 40% shooting 34%3pt 12fga - im sorry I'd expect more from a lottery pick even if its just his second year. He has been given the minutes, been a starter all year and hasn't made the impact he was projected to make. He doesn't get to the line with regularity. And it'll be a big year for him now with detroits plans of playing both PGs.

And the Drummond comment was a reach in terms of Monroe stating that defense is as important as offense. He's a beast on the offensive boards and downlow but he still doesn't have money post moves and isn't a threat from underneath the basket.

MonroeFAN
07-29-2015, 01:24 PM
mm

MonroeFAN
07-29-2015, 01:32 PM
Lol you discredit the big 3 era, yet being a pistons fan I'm guessing you pride yourself on the Billups era than? Sure they weren't competitive pre-big 3 but you can make the argument that since they weren't competitive it allowed them to attain the assets to make the trades for both KG and Ray Ray.

What? How is us having the same starting 5 and dominating the EC for 6 straight seasons comparable to the big 3 era that lasted 2 seasons? Quit being so defensive, there's no reason at all to bring up my team, no one thinks they are the in the worst position or even close.

You talk about not being able to make any noise through the draft yet your pistons have been irrelevant ever since billups got traded. Since 10' you guys have been in the lottery and who do you have to show for it in terms of your draft picks?

Um, well 2 maxed out big guys for starters. Is this a serious question?

In regards to not having a solution or direction I think its pretty clear to all fans that the Celtics are rebuilding.. As a fan of the league, it is completely unclear to me what their plan is. If they're banking on landing a superstar, as evidenced by Cleveland this past season that can happen to anyone. It's not a gameplan to have.


they were poised to tank after getting rid of the big 3(rondo), yet the roster showed enough fight to bounce back and have the second best record post-allstar in the eastern conference and secure that playoff spot. You can't discredit the team for playing hard and getting playoff experience for their young players.

I don't discredit the players at all, but it's foolish for them to do it. As is, right now, they aren't capable of competing. Purposefully losing was the smart thing to do.

Andre Drummond. and its not like it was a hard pick any ways, many experts didn't expect him to fall that far to #9.

KCP didn't live up to potential
You guys traded Middleton after 1 year
Knight was let go after 2 years for Jennings of all people.. - pretty much a waste since you guys gave Jackson that horrendous 80m contract.
You guys just lost Monroe for nothing.
Daye was a bust
And not 1 second round pick is still on that team.

None of this means anything at all, but ok? Again, are you claiming that the Pistons are the team in the worst position right now? Otherwise I don't see why it's relevant, and it's off-subject. I'm addressing players who were drafted by the Celtics. Who cares where they ended up.

4 Top 10 draft picks in the last 5 years, yet your team still cant even sniff the playoffs (5 including this year, though Stanley Johnson is a beast). Again, this isn't about my team, quit being defensive. PS : we were the hottest team in the league after Smith was released and Jennings went down. In year 1 of a complete over-haul.
Also in the bolded.. how much is defense suppose to represent than if not 50%? lol Theres two sides of the ball offense and defense. And if defense is becoming less and less important why are we seeing the most dominant defensive teams win the chip year in and year out?

Because they're also the most dominant offensive teams? Seriously? SA had the most efficient scoring finals of all time, and GSW has video game like 3 point abilities.

Shoot, being a pistons fan you should know the value of defense seeing as how your 04' chip was based on the defensive chops.

You basically just said nothing.

basch152
07-29-2015, 01:33 PM
KCP 31.5m 12.7ppg/3rpg/1apg on a 40% shooting 34%3pt 12fga - im sorry I'd expect more from a lottery pick even if its just his second year. He has been given the minutes, been a starter all year and hasn't made the impact he was projected to make. He doesn't get to the line with regularity. And it'll be a big year for him now with detroits plans of playing both PGs.

And the Drummond comment was a reach in terms of Monroe stating that defense is as important as offense. He's a beast on the offensive boards and downlow but he still doesn't have money post moves and isn't a threat from underneath the basket.

You're a fool to say ANY second year player hasn't "lived up to expectations". Most players take more than two years to develop.

People are WAY too impatient these days in waiting for players to develop.

Also, of course Drummond hasn't fully developed, the guy is 21 and he's already a an elite rebounder and a defensive presence and a very good offensive player.

MonroeFAN
07-29-2015, 01:37 PM
Detroit has 0 plans of playing with 2 PGs. I don't know where this nonsense comes from, but it doesn't work. The only people who think it works ride the short bus to skew.

phantasyyy
07-29-2015, 02:18 PM
Uhh the big 3 era last 5 years. and they pretty much had the same run as the Pistons during their run -if im not mistaken both teams did result in 1chip and 2 finals appearances no?. I'm not getting defensive as the Celtics aren't my team either just for argumentative purposes. You stated that they don't have the ability to draft and I just used the Pistons as an example seeing as how now every team is perfect even with top lottery selections.

To the point of losing on purpose, not every team has the mind set of the 76ers and willingly tank and lose games on purpose. The name of the game is win and improve while doing it. They Celtics have a Warchest of draft picks and the cap space to lure in a big name. - It may not be now but it can happen in the future. At the end of the day, the Celtics still have the championship allure and that may or not attract free agents but when it comes to trade Ainge has the assets to do so.

You stated that pistons were one of the hottest teams, well the Celtics were in the same boat so I don't know how you can credit your team yet discredit the Celtics when they were jus as hot if not better after acquiring Thomas.

Jennings was beast post-smith trade, but giving 80m to Jackson ensures you that there will not be enough minutes at PG to split duties between the two so you ARE going to see two pg lineups in limited stretches.

MonroeFAN
07-29-2015, 02:59 PM
How is 6 straight ECF appearances comparable to two over the course of 4 seasons? Some how you've added another year of them being relevant which isn't the case, NBD.

The Celtics don't have the ability to draft, the Pistons clearly do as evidenced by my contributions and your own. Where the prospects went post-draft is irrelevant.

Re : Losing on purpose. You can blame that on arrogance. I understand not wanting to tank, but Boston needs to stay humble because this current roster is going no where fast. This is the bed they made, etc etc.. I would much rather be Phili moving forward, and in all reality, neither team has done anything during the last couple of seasons. So I don't view Boston as being any better off. My opinion, feel free to take it or leave it.

I stated that the Pistons were the hottest team simply to defend them, there's a reason to feel good about a young team performing well together with potential star pieces in place. I don't see any reason to be excited about the talent in Boston, and my entire argument has been centered around how I think they're wasting their time. That is still valid, and hasn't been disproven in anyway.

Jennings tore his Achilies, how many players have come back from that injury? I know of very few, and it sure as heck wasn't the next season in a major role. Most Piston fans (who know what they're talking about) don't expect him to play more than 15 MPG to start the season, if at all. But thank you for filling me in on what's GOING to happen.

PSD, errrybody an insider.

MonroeFAN
07-29-2015, 03:02 PM
Anyways, sorry to get off-topic. No one cares I'm sure.

mngopher35
07-29-2015, 03:20 PM
I would have a hard time choosing between the assets/flexibility of Celtics and the talent of Drummond/Johnson for the Pistons moving forward.

I don't like the Jackson contract a ton and outside of those guys I don't see tons of potential for Detroit (Pope is about it off the top of my head). It is always good to have those potential centerpiece type players though. Celtics are a bit more unknown than Detroit but have so many young players, good contracts, and future picks. On top of this they actually made the playoffs last season (even though weak east). I might lean toward the Celtics if I was taking over a team but overall I don't think either is in the discussion here with teams like Nets, Kings, Dallas out there.

MonroeFAN
07-29-2015, 03:26 PM
^a fair assessment.

I strongly disagree, but homerism plays a part. Coincidentally there's an interesting topic about this exact subject over at (well you know where), and most think it's the Pistons but I understood arguments for both sides. I'll stop there, no need to turn this into another Jackson topic (although I am definitely scratching my head at leaving him out of our asset list, guy must have ran over PSD's community puppy or something).

Meh, whatevs.

2-ONE-5
07-29-2015, 03:50 PM
You're a fool to say ANY second year player hasn't "lived up to expectations". Most players take more than two years to develop.

People are WAY too impatient these days in waiting for players to develop.

Also, of course Drummond hasn't fully developed, the guy is 21 and he's already a an elite rebounder and a defensive presence and a very good offensive player.

i agrre with all of this til you said Drummond is a very good offesnive player, he is not, still far from it.

phantasyyy
07-29-2015, 03:53 PM
Losing to the Heat in the Conference finals the last year(2012) doesn't count? Lol. Losing to a big 3 twice should be considered as well as losing KG in that magic series, but whatever I guess they only had 2 great post seasons by your standards..

And the point I was making initially is that obviously your going to find better plays getting top 10 picks as opposed to picking outside the lottery and that's why Boston doesn't have a major centerpiece to build around...

Celtics are rebuilding plain and simple and if you don't see that I don't know what else to say. Not every team builds through the draft in case you didn't know - there are other ways to build.namely through trades and free agents. The Celtics are an attractive place but im not going to argue any more since yeah it is off topic and none of the teams are relevant to the topic anyway.

FYI Wes Matthews just got 70m coming off an Achilles injury, so id say that there is a good chance nowadays for players to return

mngopher35
07-29-2015, 03:53 PM
^a fair assessment.

I strongly disagree, but homerism plays a part. Coincidentally there's an interesting topic about this exact subject over at (well you know where), and most think it's the Pistons but I understood arguments for both sides. I'll stop there, no need to turn this into another Jackson topic (although I am definitely scratching my head at leaving him out of our asset list, guy must have ran over PSD's community puppy or something).

Meh, whatevs.

I can see both teams liking what they have and since Detroit has the two players with most potential (drummond already showing his) it isn't shocking to me that many would choose them.

ManRam
07-29-2015, 04:02 PM
the teams that are/were too scared to rebuild but should/should've...

so that's NYK, dallas, denver, brooklyn and to a lesser extent the lakers. the lakers didn't want to rebuild but kinda got forced into it due to injuries and free agents avoiding them. they're better off for that.

the kings are just stuck in limbo and made their (probably reckless) moves to get good this summer. i'd imagine that sets them back more than anything else, even with cousins still there. we've seen teams burned time after time by these quick FA grabs...but luckily they didn't give out too many bad long term ones.

i have no real issues with portland riding it out for one more year last season, but they obviously have some work to do. at least they have lillard and cap flexibility.

detroit's kinda at that point where they might have to make a big decision soon. but they haven't ruined their chances by overspending on crippling contracts in an effort to get better too quickly.

i'd still rather have the sixers' roster now than a lot of those teams. but because of embiid things definitely do look questionable now. sadly.

MonroeFAN
07-29-2015, 04:19 PM
Losing to the Heat in the Conference finals the last year(2012) doesn't count? Lol. Losing to a big 3 twice should be considered as well as losing KG in that magic series, but whatever I guess they only had 2 great post seasons by your standards..

And the point I was making initially is that obviously your going to find better plays getting top 10 picks as opposed to picking outside the lottery and that's why Boston doesn't have a major centerpiece to build around...

Celtics are rebuilding plain and simple and if you don't see that I don't know what else to say. Not every team builds through the draft in case you didn't know - there are other ways to build.namely through trades and free agents. The Celtics are an attractive place but im not going to argue any more since yeah it is off topic and none of the teams are relevant to the topic anyway.

FYI Wes Matthews just got 70m coming off an Achilles injury, so id say that there is a good chance nowadays for players to return


Sorry dude, I did miss the ECF. So 2 trips to the ECF's, 2 to the finals and 1 championship over 5 years. You're right, that's a valid point. The ACL thing I think we'll have to agree to disagree on. Not sure how bringing up Matthews helps, most see that as a stupid contract and question his ability to return to form. Anyways, my main point was that I don't like the direction the roster is headed in, that's all.

nycericanguy
07-29-2015, 04:23 PM
the teams that are/were too scared to rebuild but should/should've...

so that's NYK, dallas, denver, brooklyn and to a lesser extent the lakers. the lakers didn't want to rebuild but kinda got forced into it due to injuries and free agents avoiding them. they're better off for that.

the kings are just stuck in limbo and made their (probably reckless) moves to get good this summer. i'd imagine that sets them back more than anything else, even with cousins still there. we've seen teams burned time after time by these quick FA grabs...but luckily they didn't give out too many bad long term ones.

i have no real issues with portland riding it out for one more year last season, but they obviously have some work to do. at least they have lillard and cap flexibility.

detroit's kinda at that point where they might have to make a big decision soon. but they haven't ruined their chances by overspending on crippling contracts in an effort to get better too quickly.

i'd still rather have the sixers' roster now than a lot of those teams. but because of embiid things definitely do look questionable now. sadly.

pretty sure the Knicks just tanked an entire season and came away with a guy that has HUGE upside.

Just because Melo is on the roster doesn't mean they are too scared to rebuild. Melo is 31, not 41... he should be an all star caliber player for the remaining 4 years on his deal. People get too carried away with this idea that rebuilding means you have to start from scratch.

nycericanguy
07-29-2015, 04:27 PM
I would have a hard time choosing between the assets/flexibility of Celtics and the talent of Drummond/Johnson for the Pistons moving forward.

I don't like the Jackson contract a ton and outside of those guys I don't see tons of potential for Detroit (Pope is about it off the top of my head). It is always good to have those potential centerpiece type players though. Celtics are a bit more unknown than Detroit but have so many young players, good contracts, and future picks. On top of this they actually made the playoffs last season (even though weak east). I might lean toward the Celtics if I was taking over a team but overall I don't think either is in the discussion here with teams like Nets, Kings, Dallas out there.

all those assets and flexibility are great and all but at the end of the day you have to convert them into PLAYERS. I feel like BOS and PHI have been hoarding assets for 2-3 years trying to get a star, but the days of teams giving up on young stars are gone... especially with the exploding cap... teams won't be burdened by the tax. I mean didn't BOS offer like FOUR 1st rounders and 6 picks overall just to move from #16 to #9 in the draft and they still couldn't do it?

Just like PHI has a ton of picks the next 2 years, but they won't be able to use them all, so they are going to have to keep playing the trading into the future game.

MonroeFAN
07-29-2015, 04:28 PM
I also don't see how Detroit is at any point to be making a big decision. We're in year 2 of a new GM/Coach with 2 perceived potential star talents (by the community) and another by our own fanbase (Jackson) that clearly no one agrees with.

JasonJohnHorn
07-29-2015, 04:40 PM
Anyways, sorry to get off-topic. No one cares I'm sure.

I care... the Pistons 6-year run in the conference finals was the highest sustained level of excellence since the Bulls in the 90's, who made it 8 out ot 10 years with five straight leading to three titles.

Over all, the Lakers and Spurs have obviously been more impressive, but the Pistons consecutive streak in the conference finals has not been matched since the 60's!

Just remember, Joe D. put that team together.

CityofTreez
07-29-2015, 04:47 PM
Your view of the pistons is incredibly misguided.

Monroe and drummond didnt fit, it has been shown that when drummond plays with a more spread out court, with a stretch 4 (ilyasova) he plays like a superstar, compared to with monroe and a crowded paint where he still pkays great, just not as good.

Pretty much monroe or drummond, choice was easy.

More than that, our starting lineup is one of the youngest in the nba, filled with young talent that is developing, but apparently they're in one of the worst positions in the nba? How in the world does that even make sense?

Ok, so Drummond & Monroe couldn't exist, but still, you lose offensive presence in the paint with Monroe gone.
I understand Drummond will improve, but his offense is still lousy.
Adding Baynes is not going to improve your frontcourt, and only a Pistons fan can only see him be a great fit for the future. He came from SA under pop, but now he's in a different younger system with SVG. I am on the fence on this as an outsider fan.

By adding Ersan as a stretch 4 is a huge question mark.
The guy can contribute OR he could run you guys out of a game.
That's what I was criticizing, and moving forward with Ersan is pretty shaky.

Signing Reggie while still having Jennings is questionable. If one of them is to leave, it's most likely Jennings, and IMO, I'd rather have Jennings over Jackson. I'm a actually a fan of Jennings and his pass-first pace compared to Jackson who is looking to score. I just think signing Jackson pushes out Jennings, and I'm not a fan of that for the Pistons future.

I'm not even that familiar with Detriot so I didn't mean it as concrete fact that they worsened.
Just my take from their offseason moves, and obviously, it's just only an opinion from an opposing fan.

mngopher35
07-29-2015, 04:55 PM
all those assets and flexibility are great and all but at the end of the day you have to convert them into PLAYERS. I feel like BOS and PHI have been hoarding assets for 2-3 years trying to get a star, but the days of teams giving up on young stars are gone... especially with the exploding cap... teams won't be burdened by the tax. I mean didn't BOS offer like FOUR 1st rounders and 6 picks overall just to move from #16 to #9 in the draft and they still couldn't do it?

Just like PHI has a ton of picks the next 2 years, but they won't be able to use them all, so they are going to have to keep playing the trading into the future game.

Yes they did get turned down but only one of those picks was a lottery pick (potentially) and even then many think that Charlotte should have accepted. I think this shows that they are doing things right by attempting to acquire the high potential players but also not going all in on one prospect. They still have flexibility to do the same thing next year but this time they should have even better picks to use (may not even have to move up)

Boston is just now getting to the point where their assets should be coming in the lottery though which is huge (right to nets for next 3 years and Dallas protected 1-7). That should/could be about 3 lottery picks in the next few years to add to their own pick.

Then add in that they already had enough talent/coaching to make the playoffs last year. From that team you have 6/8 of their top players in minutes are age 25 or under , isiah Thomas on a good contract, and Young was just a rookie. They added Rozier/RJ in the first as well. Having all this cheap young talent, future assets and great cap situation while being a borderline playoff team already is a great start to rebuilding.

MonroeFAN
07-30-2015, 08:38 AM
Why don't people realize that Jennings is

A. Coming off of a major injury that could render him useless (most of his game is speed).

B. Is an expiring contract?

As for other concerns about our front court, our excitement to have a legit stretch 4 isn't based on nothing. https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CK5lQGIWwAAq7rr.png

That's with Tolliver as our starter. Tolliver is Illy basically on one leg without an ability to pass. Yes, there are injury concerns. There are injury concerns with half the players mentioned in this topic.

JEDean89
07-30-2015, 01:40 PM
Kings passed on a Franchise Caliber PG to draft a C, when their best position is C, and their worst position is PG. This move will screw that Franchise over. Not that I don't like WCS, but to take him over Mudiay, Johnson and Winslow, is going to go down as another horrible Kings draft move.

Maybe WCS can play PF defensively in the NBA, he can certainly guard the perimeter. But his offensive game is just lobs, and he can't clog the paint if you want Cousins to work in there. I also don't see where he gets his minutes from. Cousins and Koufos should get all the C minutes.

Drummond, Jackson and Johnson is a very strong, young defensive core for the Pistons. Best case scenario, they fight for the 7th, 8th seed, and start building their identity this year, Johnson is a ROY candidate, Jackson improves his shot, and Drummond takes another step (he needs a go to post move). Worst case, they don't improve much, draft between 6-14 in a draft loaded with PF's (their biggest need by far is a young stretch 4, there are 6 PF's expected in the lottery).

76ers luck depends entirely on how awful they are, and how awful the Lakers can be without being a bottom 3 team. 76ers, Nuggets, Blazers, Wolves should all be worse, so Lakers pick likely in the 5-10 range for the 76ers, that could be two top 10 picks, to add to Embiid, Saric, Noel and Okafor. The Heat pick is likely to be in the 20's, and the thunder in the high 20's. Doubt they get anyone they want long term with those two.

76erEaglePhils
07-30-2015, 03:38 PM
Nets are in by far the worst spot - Old roster that isn't good, no good young talent and very little draft picks for a good while. Billy King is STILL their GM somehow, from top to bottom they really are a mess.

For the second team, that's a tricky one.

I think Dallas is pretty screwed in the short term and into the rebuild in the post-Dirk world, but as long as Mark Cuban is the owner and they have a coach like Rick Carlisle they will always be in a better position than many teams.

Sacramento's new owner, front office situation and George Karl seems like a huge disaster. At the same time, as long as they have a young player like Cousins to build around they still won't be in as bad shape as a few teams.

Philly, I just completely hate what they're doing. They have Okafor and Noel to build around, but no talent for them to actually grow and develop with. And on top of that, still no idea if either are even in their long term tanking plans. They dumped MCW because he couldn't shoot and didn't have the realistic potential to become a dominant star, who's to say the same doesn't happen with Noel with his lack of offense or Okafor with his lack of defense?

I would say,

Worst - Nets BY FAR
2nd worst - PhillyYou just put Philly up there just to put them up there you couldn't find anything legit to put them on the list of teams in the worst position. So you just post a bunch of useless crap to put them in a category of a team that is in a bad position when clearly they are not. If you hate what they are doing so what that is your opinion, and a very biased and ignorant one at that. You can't just sit there, and try and downgrade Philly just because you hate what they are doing without looking at the complete picture of what Philly is doing which you have no clue about.

76erEaglePhils
07-30-2015, 04:18 PM
pretty sure the Knicks just tanked an entire season and came away with a guy that has HUGE upside.

Just because Melo is on the roster doesn't mean they are too scared to rebuild. Melo is 31, not 41... he should be an all star caliber player for the remaining 4 years on his deal. People get too carried away with this idea that rebuilding means you have to start from scratch.And 31 is not 21 he is closer to the end of his career than he is the beginning. So playing at an all-star caliber is what really matters now that is a load of crap especially since when Melo looks up and the top 5 guys in his draft all have rings, and he has none. Might I add that Lebron is working on another one. Melo will be 35 years old by the end of his deal with this coming up season being another losing season so scratch another year off that 4. The Knicks better start looking for a deal like the Boston Celtics deal when the got Allen and Garnett because right now it's not looking good for them. Another thing you don't draft a guy at 4 for upside that is a wrong move.

nycericanguy
07-30-2015, 04:52 PM
And 31 is not 21 he is closer to the end of his career than he is the beginning. So playing at an all-star caliber is what really matters now that is a load of crap especially since when Melo looks up and the top 5 guys in his draft all have rings, and he has none. Might I add that Lebron is working on another one. Melo will be 35 years old by the end of his deal with this coming up season being another losing season so scratch another year off that 4. The Knicks better start looking for a deal like the Boston Celtics deal when the got Allen and Garnett because right now it's not looking good for them. Another thing you don't draft a guy at 4 for upside that is a wrong move.

sentences are your friend, you wrote a lot there but said basically nothing.

You don't draft a guy at 4 for upside? what does that even mean?...lol. Just about all the lottery picks these days are taken on upside.

phantasyyy
07-30-2015, 05:39 PM
And 31 is not 21 he is closer to the end of his career than he is the beginning. So playing at an all-star caliber is what really matters now that is a load of crap especially since when Melo looks up and the top 5 guys in his draft all have rings, and he has none. Might I add that Lebron is working on another one. Melo will be 35 years old by the end of his deal with this coming up season being another losing season so scratch another year off that 4. The Knicks better start looking for a deal like the Boston Celtics deal when the got Allen and Garnett because right now it's not looking good for them. Another thing you don't draft a guy at 4 for upside that is a wrong move.

Do you even know your own teams draft history? Embiid was drafted based on his upside- the man was injured and he sat out an entire year and is looking like this one as well...drafted @3.
Noel was drafted @6 and he was also injured for his rookie year, if that's not drafting based on upside than idk what is.

How do you not draft based on upside? you think rookies coming in are a done deal and they wont improve?

2-ONE-5
07-30-2015, 05:57 PM
why he is wrong about not drafting for upside you are wrong about Noel he wasnt drafted soley on upside (everyone is drafted on upside to an extent)

MonroeFAN
07-30-2015, 07:53 PM
Every single player drafted ever was drafted based on upside I feel like.

Sactown
07-30-2015, 10:21 PM
Every single player drafted ever was drafted based on upside I feel like.

Yeah but some guys are drafted because of their height weight speed and not because of their skill.

Like a guy like K Leanord, Spurs liked him because of his potential as a versatile defender with large hands and great speed.. he wasn't drafted based on skill

Deandre Jordan very similarly drafted based of athletic ability and size .

These are the guys you draft with massive upside because they have things guys can't learn

Noel fits the mold as well, a guy who has the hands and feet of a guard but the size of a center , he isn't a guy who was drafted for his skill in the low post... You just hope he develops a low post game giving him tremendous upside

Drummond is another guy who fits the mold

Justice Wislow is a guy who fits the mold hoping he develops an outside shot

Okofor is the opposite, he's more of an immediate impact guy who has the skill and you think it translates, he's much less of a project player and more of a guy who can start day one

FOXHOUND
07-30-2015, 10:22 PM
You just put Philly up there just to put them up there you couldn't find anything legit to put them on the list of teams in the worst position. So you just post a bunch of useless crap to put them in a category of a team that is in a bad position when clearly they are not. If you hate what they are doing so what that is your opinion, and a very biased and ignorant one at that. You can't just sit there, and try and downgrade Philly just because you hate what they are doing without looking at the complete picture of what Philly is doing which you have no clue about.

I just put them up there to put them up there? I don't even know what that means...

In case you forgot, here's the OP of this thread.

What teams do you see not having a very bright future. Ones that aren't good, have little room for improvement, and you just don't believe in what they're doing. I think there are two teams that are obvious choices, but I want to know what PSD thinks. Choose your teams and explain why.

Don't get mad if your team gets mentioned, instead try to understand the reasons.

Uh, anyways I'll reiterate in case you couldn't comprehend.

They have Okafor and Noel, two promising young bigs, to build around but no talent for them to actually grow and develop with - This is pretty simple. First of all, they have two big men who both need to be close to the basket to do anything at a high efficiency.

Noel will never be close to as good on offense as Okafor, which means you're going to feed Okafor a lot more. What exactly is Noel going to be doing when Okafor has the ball? In what way is he going to help the offense when Okafor has the ball? Same as vice versa, when Noel has the ball what is Okafor going to be doing? Not only are neither remotely proven to be a viable option at PF in the NBA, but they don't seem like a terribly good fit together either. In today's world of athletic, swarming defenses, that's already a big strike.

Secondly, the talent around those two sucks. I'm sorry if you can't see this, but a couple of years of constantly dumping players to maintain low talent to tank has left them with a really thin roster of NBA bench and even D-League talent. I don't know if you're aware of this, but basketball is played 5-on-5. So, when either of them have the ball, what are the three perimeter players going to do other than be bad basketball players? Bricking open shots when the D collapses on those two, sounds productive. Furthermore, being that they are not good players, how exactly are they going to help them as bigs in any way? Bigs need help from the perimeter to run the offense and set them up. What you're going to have is two young big men, one very raw offensively, having to carry an offense while being swarmed by defenders with teammates who can't help much at all.

In short - it's a really bad environment for a young big to develop in, let alone two young bigs who don't seem like great fits together to begin with. And on that topic, since Hinkie just blindly drafts who he views as BPA with a trading mindset in case they don't work out, who's to even say either will end up in the long term plans? Maybe they don't fit? So one is traded. Maybe he doesn't like Noel's lack of an offensive game and him not being an NBA superstar? So he's traded. Maybe he doesn't like Okafor's lack of a defensive game and it meaning he may not become an NBA superstar? So he's traded.

He already traded the ROY in his second season because he didn't have legit superstar potential, who's to say either of those two are safe? And the thing on trades is - you never get equal value back. NEVER. What's he going to do, keep dumping young players who aren't superstars for draft picks and then just hoping one of those picks is the lucky one? Never mind Embiid, who unfortunately is looking Oden like with his injuries.

So yeah, to answer the thread, I think they're in a terrible position because I don't believe in what they're doing.

FOXHOUND
07-30-2015, 10:24 PM
sentences are your friend, you wrote a lot there but said basically nothing.

You don't draft a guy at 4 for upside? what does that even mean?...lol. Just about all the lottery picks these days are taken on upside.

That's such a weird comment. EVERY SINGLE PLAYER IS DRAFTED FOR UPSIDE. Nobody is drafting 19-22 year olds for what they're going to do their rookie season. Every player is drafted for what they can possibly do years later.

basch152
07-31-2015, 03:02 AM
Ok, so Drummond & Monroe couldn't exist, but still, you lose offensive presence in the paint with Monroe gone.
I understand Drummond will improve, but his offense is still lousy.
Adding Baynes is not going to improve your frontcourt, and only a Pistons fan can only see him be a great fit for the future. He came from SA under pop, but now he's in a different younger system with SVG. I am on the fence on this as an outsider fan.

By adding Ersan as a stretch 4 is a huge question mark.
The guy can contribute OR he could run you guys out of a game.
That's what I was criticizing, and moving forward with Ersan is pretty shaky.

Signing Reggie while still having Jennings is questionable. If one of them is to leave, it's most likely Jennings, and IMO, I'd rather have Jennings over Jackson. I'm a actually a fan of Jennings and his pass-first pace compared to Jackson who is looking to score. I just think signing Jackson pushes out Jennings, and I'm not a fan of that for the Pistons future.

I'm not even that familiar with Detriot so I didn't mean it as concrete fact that they worsened.
Just my take from their offseason moves, and obviously, it's just only an opinion from an opposing fan.

As I stated, the lost offense from monroe will just go directly to drummond. Fort just posted how great drummond plays with a stretch 4, and now we have a better stretch 4 than what we had before.

Not only that, but drummond now has more experience, kcp has more experience, Jackson has experience leading the team now and our 3 spot is SIGNIFICANTLY upgraded.

Most would say that not only are the pistons not even close to being in the worst spot, their future is one of the brightest.

ManRam
07-31-2015, 09:15 AM
pretty sure the Knicks just tanked an entire season and came away with a guy that has HUGE upside.

Just because Melo is on the roster doesn't mean they are too scared to rebuild. Melo is 31, not 41... he should be an all star caliber player for the remaining 4 years on his deal. People get too carried away with this idea that rebuilding means you have to start from scratch.

i stand by that, though your viewpoint is certainly valid. i don't for a second think that last year was a rebuilding year by design. i do give the front office credit for shedding the crap like JR and Iman when it was apparent they weren't going anywhere, but that was forced on them by circumstances. it's a mini-reboot. they're chugging along aiming for mediocrity right now. yes, it's great they have KP, it's great they haven't butchered their future cap, and so on...but they aren't going to be winning anything anytime soon.

i think and have thought that they need to move on from melo, but that's up for debate. i guess i pair them up with the lakers as apposed to a team like the nets. but i still don't see why there's reason to think their future is super bright based on what they have. could they kill it in a future free agency? sure. but until they do, i think we're looking at a fringe playoff team as melo's prime years start wearing down, and that's not a sunny sight.

not having a draft pick this year isn't great, either. but again, not brooklyn-bad.

the number of rosters i'd rather have over the knicks going forward is a very small number. i think that's undeniable.

nycericanguy
07-31-2015, 09:58 AM
i stand by that, though your viewpoint is certainly valid. i don't for a second think that last year was a rebuilding year by design. i do give the front office credit for shedding the crap like JR and Iman when it was apparent they weren't going anywhere, but that was forced on them by circumstances. it's a mini-reboot. they're chugging along aiming for mediocrity right now. yes, it's great they have KP, it's great they haven't butchered their future cap, and so on...but they aren't going to be winning anything anytime soon.

i think and have thought that they need to move on from melo, but that's up for debate. i guess i pair them up with the lakers as apposed to a team like the nets. but i still don't see why there's reason to think their future is super bright based on what they have. could they kill it in a future free agency? sure. but until they do, i think we're looking at a fringe playoff team as melo's prime years start wearing down, and that's not a sunny sight.

not having a draft pick this year isn't great, either. but again, not brooklyn-bad.

the number of rosters i'd rather have over the knicks going forward is a very small number. i think that's undeniable.

no doubt, but like you said they recognized it and instead of trying to add a player to get them to 35-38 wins last year, they blew it up.

Def not aiming for mediocrity, I mean at the end of the day they need KP to pan out and turn into an all star, but he looks like he has serious two way potential. Coupled with Grant who was probably the 2nd best PG prospect in the draft, and some solid young defensive role players like Lopez & Quinn... I don't see why you'd put a ceiling on that as a fringe playoff team. Melo has done more with less before.

but again it all comes down to KP, but KP & Lopez have the potential to be a scary frontcourt. What team starts two guys who are 7'1 and 7'3, yet still mobile? that rim protection has insane potential and great spacing on offense.

ManRam
07-31-2015, 12:39 PM
no doubt, but like you said they recognized it and instead of trying to add a player to get them to 35-38 wins last year, they blew it up.

Def not aiming for mediocrity, I mean at the end of the day they need KP to pan out and turn into an all star, but he looks like he has serious two way potential. Coupled with Grant who was probably the 2nd best PG prospect in the draft, and some solid young defensive role players like Lopez & Quinn... I don't see why you'd put a ceiling on that as a fringe playoff team. Melo has done more with less before.

but again it all comes down to KP, but KP & Lopez have the potential to be a scary frontcourt. What team starts two guys who are 7'1 and 7'3, yet still mobile? that rim protection has insane potential and great spacing on offense.

i'm as high on KP as it gets, but I just don't see the KP and Melo eras at all overlapping. i'm not even someone who thinks he's going to take forever to develop merely because he's foreign...i just understand that it takes most every stud prospect a long while to reach their absolute championship-winning caliber barring the very rare outliers (especially of late).

me thinking the knicks should move on from melo soon maybe has me being a little irrational here. all things considered they did have a good offseason and they aren't jeopardizing their future for a few extra wins. we'll see how it works out. i'll admit i have a soft stance on this.

nycericanguy
07-31-2015, 01:47 PM
i'm as high on KP as it gets, but I just don't see the KP and Melo eras at all overlapping. i'm not even someone who thinks he's going to take forever to develop merely because he's foreign...i just understand that it takes most every stud prospect a long while to reach their absolute championship-winning caliber barring the very rare outliers (especially of late).

me thinking the knicks should move on from melo soon maybe has me being a little irrational here. all things considered they did have a good offseason and they aren't jeopardizing their future for a few extra wins. we'll see how it works out. i'll admit i have a soft stance on this.

I think we'll know pretty soon whether KP is the real deal or not, same with Grant being he played 4+ years in college.

If those two pan out, then in 2016-17 along with adding another solid player in FAgency like Batum? Then that will probably be the start of a solid 2-3 year run before Melo declines into a role player.

I get the idea of moving on from Melo to make it a complete rebuild, but still you can't blame Phil for resigning him, you don't just let a guy like that go. He's still a capable 25+/7/3 guy on good efficiency and that's very rare in this league. And now his contract looks pretty good too at $24m per. Is he a little older than you'd like? Sure... but he's not on his last legs either.

2-ONE-5
07-31-2015, 01:48 PM
I just put them up there to put them up there? I don't even know what that means...

In case you forgot, here's the OP of this thread.

What teams do you see not having a very bright future. Ones that aren't good, have little room for improvement, and you just don't believe in what they're doing. I think there are two teams that are obvious choices, but I want to know what PSD thinks. Choose your teams and explain why.

Don't get mad if your team gets mentioned, instead try to understand the reasons.

Uh, anyways I'll reiterate in case you couldn't comprehend.

They have Okafor and Noel, two promising young bigs, to build around but no talent for them to actually grow and develop with - This is pretty simple. First of all, they have two big men who both need to be close to the basket to do anything at a high efficiency.

Noel will never be close to as good on offense as Okafor, which means you're going to feed Okafor a lot more. What exactly is Noel going to be doing when Okafor has the ball? In what way is he going to help the offense when Okafor has the ball? Same as vice versa, when Noel has the ball what is Okafor going to be doing? Not only are neither remotely proven to be a viable option at PF in the NBA, but they don't seem like a terribly good fit together either. In today's world of athletic, swarming defenses, that's already a big strike.

Secondly, the talent around those two sucks. I'm sorry if you can't see this, but a couple of years of constantly dumping players to maintain low talent to tank has left them with a really thin roster of NBA bench and even D-League talent. I don't know if you're aware of this, but basketball is played 5-on-5. So, when either of them have the ball, what are the three perimeter players going to do other than be bad basketball players? Bricking open shots when the D collapses on those two, sounds productive. Furthermore, being that they are not good players, how exactly are they going to help them as bigs in any way? Bigs need help from the perimeter to run the offense and set them up. What you're going to have is two young big men, one very raw offensively, having to carry an offense while being swarmed by defenders with teammates who can't help much at all.

In short - it's a really bad environment for a young big to develop in, let alone two young bigs who don't seem like great fits together to begin with. And on that topic, since Hinkie just blindly drafts who he views as BPA with a trading mindset in case they don't work out, who's to even say either will end up in the long term plans? Maybe they don't fit? So one is traded. Maybe he doesn't like Noel's lack of an offensive game and him not being an NBA superstar? So he's traded. Maybe he doesn't like Okafor's lack of a defensive game and it meaning he may not become an NBA superstar? So he's traded.

He already traded the ROY in his second season because he didn't have legit superstar potential, who's to say either of those two are safe? And the thing on trades is - you never get equal value back. NEVER. What's he going to do, keep dumping young players who aren't superstars for draft picks and then just hoping one of those picks is the lucky one? Never mind Embiid, who unfortunately is looking Oden like with his injuries.

So yeah, to answer the thread, I think they're in a terrible position because I don't believe in what they're doing.

this is really misinformed on many levels. We are excited to see Okafor kick the ball out to guys like Stauskaus, Covignton (37% from 3) and Hollis Thompson (40% career from 3). Add in Wroten is gets to the rim at will, if he continues to improve his decision making he will be solid even if his ideal role 6th man. Noel doesnt need the ball on O he will get his on lobs, PnR, and putbacks quite easily with Okafor taking up the attention and what should be good/better shooters on the perimeter who I mentioned above. Lets not forget we are bringing back the core (your thoughts aside) of what was a TOP TEN DEFENSE last year.

Lastly by no means was MCW traded because Hinkie didnt see star potential in him.

RLundi
07-31-2015, 02:21 PM
I think we'll know pretty soon whether KP is the real deal or not, same with Grant being he played 4+ years in college.

If those two pan out, then in 2016-17 along with adding another solid player in FAgency like Batum? Then that will probably be the start of a solid 2-3 year run before Melo declines into a role player.

I get the idea of moving on from Melo to make it a complete rebuild, but still you can't blame Phil for resigning him, you don't just let a guy like that go. He's still a capable 25+/7/3 guy on good efficiency and that's very rare in this league. And now his contract looks pretty good too at $24m per. Is he a little older than you'd like? Sure... but he's not on his last legs either.

But why even have Melo around then? I don't think this team as it stands is a contender. They may make it to .500 but that's as far as they are going with Melo as the star. He's 31. He'll still be all-star level for at least another couple of seasons but it seems like his decline is going to coincide with Porzingis' upside being realized (big if). Wouldn't it make sense to jettison Melo now for younger talent or future draft picks? Or even sign a young SF on free agency? That way, whoever they replace Melo with has a good chance to grow and have his potential coalesce with KP's rather than two players who will probably never be top players next to each other and at the same time.

If I'm Phil, and this is just my opinion, I get rid of Melo and try for someone younger. There's no reason to tank because I think the Knicks don't have their draft pick next year. But I trade Anthony for young pieces and future draft picks, whatever I can get. I don't sign any key pieces over the age of 28, or at least I don't sign them to multi year deals. I build around KP and the rest of the young talent already on the roster and flank them with bonafide young talent, going hard after Durant, Derozan, Parsons, or Conley in free agency and try to trade for Morris on Phoenix. This way, their peak play will (hopefully) parallel Porzingis' when he's finally ready to contribute. I just don't see a point in being a 35-40 win team for the rest of Melo's contract and seeing KP reach his potential when Melo is no longer a star. Then they're just essentially back to square one.

nycericanguy
07-31-2015, 03:52 PM
But why even have Melo around then? I don't think this team as it stands is a contender. They may make it to .500 but that's as far as they are going with Melo as the star. He's 31. He'll still be all-star level for at least another couple of seasons but it seems like his decline is going to coincide with Porzingis' upside being realized (big if). Wouldn't it make sense to jettison Melo now for younger talent or future draft picks? Or even sign a young SF on free agency? That way, whoever they replace Melo with has a good chance to grow and have his potential coalesce with KP's rather than two players who will probably never be top players next to each other and at the same time.

If I'm Phil, and this is just my opinion, I get rid of Melo and try for someone younger. There's no reason to tank because I think the Knicks don't have their draft pick next year. But I trade Anthony for young pieces and future draft picks, whatever I can get. I don't sign any key pieces over the age of 28, or at least I don't sign them to multi year deals. I build around KP and the rest of the young talent already on the roster and flank them with bonafide young talent, going hard after Durant, Derozan, Parsons, or Conley in free agency and try to trade for Morris on Phoenix. This way, their peak play will (hopefully) parallel Porzingis' when he's finally ready to contribute. I just don't see a point in being a 35-40 win team for the rest of Melo's contract and seeing KP reach his potential when Melo is no longer a star. Then they're just essentially back to square one.

I mean if there's a good trade out there and Melo is willing then sure trade him, but he's not doing you any harm by being on the team. THere's no pressing need to get rid of him, we already got the high lottery pick in KP, which would have been the argument against reisgn Melo last year, to get a high pick...well we got that pick AND kept Melo... i don't see that as a negative but maybe its just me. Again I just think people have gotten carried away with the idea that in order to rebuild you have to completely start over from a bare canvas.

The way I look at it is, we'll have a 2-3 year run where Melo is still a 25ppg star... and then hopefully KP takes over and we have another 2-3 year run where Melo is more a Paul Pierce 16-18ppg scorer with KP carrying more of the load.