PDA

View Full Version : JH: "You've Got to Blow Things Up"



RedSoxtober
07-22-2015, 03:27 PM
“Finishing last is even more unacceptable [than non-contention],” Red Sox (and Globe) owner John Henry said on Opening Day.

He also offered this observation at the time, noting his team’s radical on-the-fly reconstructions in the middle of the 2012 and 2014 teams.

“If you’re not going to win, you’ve got to blow things up,” he said.Alex Speier

papipapsmanny
07-22-2015, 06:35 PM
Yeah but how do you do that?

If I were to do that I trade everyone but the young guys, and I probably keep Pedroia, Buchholz, Miley, and Hanley for various reasons.

We are in a position that we cannot do that. Sandoval and Porcello are virtually untradeable because of there awful contracts. Ortiz is stuck on the team, because of his vesting options and he isn't retiring.

But I'll entertain the idea that we trade Porcello and Sandoval.... and receive nothing (which I would take). Ortiz well there is no way around that so keep him.

I keep Buchholz and Miley. Miley because we have signed through prime years to a fair deal, and he a a very good 4/5 guy to have. Lefty and usually an innings eater.

Buchholz because we won't find anyone else close to him in terms to talent at his price tag for 2 1 year deals essentially.

Pedroia.... because 2B can be hard to fill, he is the franchise, and well he is still very productive.

Hanley because his power is just hard to find these days.

So from there is that is what I am working with.... players to add.

I trade Johnson, Joe Kelly, Devin Marrero and JBJ to the Padres for Tyson Ross.

Sign Jason Heyward

Sign Jordan Zimmerman (Again we are going with Porcello and Panda somehow gone so we can afford it)

Zimmerman
Buchholz
Ross
E-Rod
Miley

(I believe other than Zimmerman, all pitchers are relatively cheap for 2016 and 2017)

Betts CF
Pedroia 2B
Heyward RF
Hanley 1B
Ortiz DH
Bogaerts SS
Castillo LF
Holt 3B
Swihart/Vazquez C

Craig, backup LF/1B

I mean its nothing great.... but not terrible.... and a **** ton more flexibility

Bo Sox Fan
07-22-2015, 06:53 PM
Jason Heyward is perfectly built for Fenway's right field and he has age on his side. The price will probably be redonkulous though but if management is gonna throw money around blindly again this winter I'd snap him up in a heart beat.

8 years, $175 million is my guess. Don't bat him 3rd though, he's best suited in the 2 hole, or 6th / 7th. Like a young left handed Victorino in his prime.

bagwell368
07-22-2015, 07:16 PM
The Sox need to see what they have in the wings.

So DFA everyone that's a FA at the end of the year that can't get a decent trade return.

Next year try and move the cancers - even at high monetary expense -- Get Buchholz and others in tradeable shape and drop the hammer

This team is 3 years away from flushing the crap and having the high rated kids in position to do something. That's when you hit the FA market, this team here looks like a bad Yankee team from the Mattingly era - except with a really inept manager. Kick that clown upstairs and fire the head of ML level scouting - today.

papipapsmanny
07-22-2015, 07:52 PM
I have to say Farrell is awful. He changes lineups daily, seemingly doesn't know who to bring in and when for the bullpen, and abruptly sits players during a hot streak...

I'd send him off easily

-Lavigne43-
07-22-2015, 08:23 PM
Got to dump all the sunk costs: Napoli, Victorino, Masterson etc. Trade De Aza, Koji. Shop Tazawa, Holt and see if you can get high returns. Put JBjr in RF every day and see what he does. Maybe try to get Hanley some experience at 1b.

Pitching is supposed to be Farrell's expertise, yet the pitcher we invested the most in is having the worst season of his career. Strategically he is poor. The only clear positive from his coaching staff is the defensive improvement from Xander, and how well Mookie has taken to CF. They have done well with rookies who are willing to work hard. His job has to be on the line. Cherington's should as well.

During the offseason they should consider trying to extend Mookie to a long term deal. He seems like the humble kind of kid who would not turn down one of those pre arb, long extensions. He didn't change his rookie number because he didn't want the people who bought his jersey to have to buy a new one.

papipapsmanny
07-22-2015, 08:34 PM
Do you think Betts Does a 10 year 150 million dollar deal?. That is the only way a longterm extension makes sense to me. He would be 33 at the end of it.

I mean he probably loses some potential money for the last 5 years... but hey he picks up a lot on the front and that is a lot of security.

Soxfan85
07-22-2015, 08:35 PM
Then when do you do with your $72MM RF Rusney?

Bo Sox Fan
07-22-2015, 08:45 PM
We better extend Betts before he hires Scott Boras as his agent. Bogaerts already did, so enjoy him in a Sox uniform before he hits free agency.

BoSox47
07-22-2015, 11:32 PM
Red Sox would have the 4th overall pick in the draft if the season ended today

elements1985
07-23-2015, 01:26 AM
And the cycle continues: blowing it up mid-season is driving bad off-season FA signings.

You can't dismantle a team and expect to re-build it in one off-season -- even in MLB. I dunno where this misnomer among fans comes from. Real world team building is closer to the NBA than MLB 2K15.

If you're a FO that wants to be relevant each year, signing over-priced FA's is the only logical choice following a major sell.

This organization is such a joke. Like Bruins bad.

celticsman2009
07-23-2015, 09:19 AM
Trade Pedroia (and pieces) for pitching or a 1B and let Betts play at second. Put Bradley in Center. putting him anywhere else is silly. Deal with his bat.

Norieaga
07-23-2015, 10:26 AM
Huge "NO!" to Heyward. His power is limited, I don't want to pay $120M+ for a sub-800 OPS. We did that with Carl Crawford and paid the price for a while. That would also put way too much money into the OF. We already have Castillo earning $72M, plus I assume we'll want to extend Mookie at some point.

This team needs starting pitching and a 1B.

RedSoxtober
07-23-2015, 01:28 PM
Yeah but how do you do that?
You have some good ideas but I'll just answer it more generally first and then hit specifics. I'm thinking of blowing up the roster only in terms of breaking down the current roster and not necessarily fixing it on the other side. In my mind "blowing up the roster" is primarily an act of stripping away "name" players to reveal a competitive core.


Get rid of expiring contracts
Move at least one expensive contract at a discount
Move 1-2 valuable pieces in exchange for your position of greatest need.


The first piece is obvious: Breslow, De Aza, Masterson, Napoli, and Victorino all take a walk. I'm not particularly worried about whether or not we do it now or just let the contracts expire from the perspective of "blowing up the roster" but this is the logical first step and, I believe, the ~ $40M in expiring contracts is reason why JH was okay with some of the other deals. From a business perspective I'd prefer to get something back for them so I would push them at the trade deadline. Realistically only De Aza is playing well enough to get something back. I would DFA the rest on 8/1 and hope we can work out a waiver-deal on the rest.

The second piece requires some work. After the FAs, the expensive (10M+/yr) contracts we have are Buchholz, Castillo, Ortiz, Pedroia, Porcello, Ramirez, and Sandoval. Pedroia is still producing some value (albeit diminished due to his DL trips). You've got to keep him because of his connection to the fan base and a certain sense of leadership. Ortiz' market is probably far too narrow. Castillo has done nothing and has no market. Personally I would prefer to hang onto Porcello for another year and see if we can right the ship with a better catching situation. Doing so would also ease the strain on attempting to fill out the rotation.

So HanRam or Panda? This might be contingent on what we could do to backfill. As much as I would like to move Panda (and eat up to half his salary -- probably less than what he eats though) the FA market at 3B is poor and the Sox don't have much by way of replacements behind him. Moving HanRam to replace him might work but I suspect his frequency of injury with LAD could be related to his move to 3B. The solution might be to dangle both at a discount and trade whichever nets the best return.

Marco Hernandez, the relatively obscure piece we got back for Doubront, has been on fire this year. A SS through his development, perhaps he sees some time at 3B during Aug and gets a call up to help make the above decision. While I do not anticipate that he is a long term solution, he may be an adequate placeholder for 2-3 years... and a cheap one to help balance 8-figure contracts that cannot move.

I think Buchholz is somewhere between the first two options -- he's on options so his contract is technically expiring but he's also an 8-figure earner when the options are picked up. For me he becomes the leading candidate for option 3 -- a valuable piece that you move to address the biggest need. I would add JBJ, Marrero, Owens, Guerra and Uehara to the list and consider Swihart in the right deal. Devers, Margot, and Moncada (ineligible) stay. Who stays or goes, again, depends on the deal.

A roster without Breslow, Buchholz+JBJ/Owens, De Aza, Masterson, Napoli, Ramirez/Sandoval, Uehara and Victorino would definitely be considered to have been "blown up". You'd have removed five players with prominent roles to the 2013 WS in addition to some well regarded prospects in order to fix your deficiencies. The net payroll savings would be on the order of $75M which should provide plenty of flexibility for building up on the other side of the TNT. A TOTR arm would be realistic during the offseason making the head of next year's rotation (TOTR, Rodriguez, Porcello, Miley) much more palatable.


Do you think Betts Does a 10 year 150 million dollar deal?. That is the only way a longterm extension makes sense to me. He would be 33 at the end of it.

I mean he probably loses some potential money for the last 5 years... but hey he picks up a lot on the front and that is a lot of security.
I'm sure that he would do it but I also think that it would be a mistake unless the back end of the contract includes option years. More realistic, I think, would be 8yrs with 6 guaranteed and two options. That gets him on the market at age 30/31 which has some appeal to him I'm sure. Longoria's deal might be instructive.


I have to say Farrell is awful. He changes lineups daily, seemingly doesn't know who to bring in and when for the bullpen, and abruptly sits players during a hot streak...

I'd send him off easily
I'm very mixed on Farrell. I really like his ability to listen to guys while also setting very clear expectations. His confrontation w/Miley is a good example. So I guess I like his approach.

On the downside, I think that he overemphasizes aggressiveness on the basepaths. It has become characteristic of his teams to run into outs. While Betts getting thrown out at 3B was not directly his fault (Betts went on his own), it's the kind of thing that happens with Farrell's teams and I must assume that his message is not clear enough. Obviously his in-game decisions are not great. He's had far too many mea culpas in post-game pressers.

I won't be disappointed regardless of his future.

Bo Sox Fan
07-23-2015, 03:13 PM
Huge "NO!" to Heyward. His power is limited, I don't want to pay $120M+ for a sub-800 OPS. We did that with Carl Crawford and paid the price for a while. That would also put way too much money into the OF. We already have Castillo earning $72M, plus I assume we'll want to extend Mookie at some point.

This team needs starting pitching and a 1B.

They don't seem to care paying Castillo big bucks to play in the minors today so why does it matter going forward.

BoSox47
07-23-2015, 03:38 PM
I really wouldnt classify 10 million dollars as big bucks in todays mlb. Everyone knew there would be a slight grooming period with him and injuries have hampered him as well. Though i do agree i thought he would be up here by now. He really hasnt been given a real shot. Guy has 77 PA this year while Victorino has 101.

Bo Sox Fan
07-23-2015, 06:07 PM
10 million per year X7 plus the posting fee.

Wojo
07-23-2015, 06:57 PM
If I was in charge this is what I would do.

This year, right now. DFA Napoli and Victorino. Pedroia plays 1b, Betts plays 2b and JBJ plays cf, call up Castillo and start him every game the rest of the year, regardless of performance. Let him know that he is up to gain experience and not to worry about results, to ease any stress he may have trying to live up to his contract.

In the offseason tell Ortiz in the most respectful way possible that he is done. Han Ram goes to dh. #1 free agent target is Justin Upton for lf. #2 is Chris Young who can play all 3 outfield positions and hits right handed pitching excellent, even tho he is a righty.

1b. Pedroia, 2b. Betts, ss. Boegarts, 3b. Sandoval, c. Vasquez, rf. (hopefully)Castillo if not then Young, cf. JBJ, lf. Upton, dh. Han Ram. Bench is Holt, Hanigan, Castillo/Young.

I think a move to 1st would save alot of wear and tear on Pedroia and a move to 2nd would maximize Betts value. JBJ would obviously not be a downgrade in cf on defense.

Now pitching.

Bucholz, as unpredictable as he is, is a steal at $13 mil. He's my opening day #3 Porcello and Miley are my #4 and #5 as they are both under contract and plenty capable of living up to those standards. I strongly believe that Porcello will return to form once the pressure of being the ace of the staff is gone.

My #2 is free agent signing Wei-Yin Chen. 30 year old lefty, A.L. East tested and proven. Will be much cheaper than most of the big name free agent starters.

My #1 is Stephen Strasburg, acquired for ERod and Swihart.

#1. Strasburg, #2. Chen, #3. Bucholz, #4. Porcello, #5. Miley, #5a. Owens, #5b. Johnson.

For the bullpen I would sign Tommy Hunter. I would trade Marrero and Margot to the Reds for Chapman.

Thats a lot of heat in the middle innings with Light, Barnes, Kelly and Hunter.

Tazawa to Koji to Chapman to finish off close games.

RedSoxtober
07-24-2015, 09:26 AM
10 million per year X7 plus the posting fee.
No posting fee for an IFA from Cuba.


If I was in charge this is what I would do.

This year, right now. DFA Napoli and Victorino. Pedroia plays 1b, Betts plays 2b and JBJ plays cf, call up Castillo and start him every game the rest of the year, regardless of performance. Let him know that he is up to gain experience and not to worry about results, to ease any stress he may have trying to live up to his contract.
A lot of the ideas are both original and reasonable (even where I disagree). While saving wear and tear on Pedroia makes sense, I'm not sure that having the shortest guy on the team as a target at 1B makes sense. Obviously his defensive value (probably the most consistent contribution he makes) goes away over there.


My #1 is Stephen Strasburg, acquired for ERod and Swihart.

#1. Strasburg, #2. Chen, #3. Bucholz, #4. Porcello, #5. Miley, #5a. Owens, #5b. Johnson.

For the bullpen I would sign Tommy Hunter. I would trade Marrero and Margot to the Reds for Chapman.


Five years of E-Rod and Swihart for one year of Strasburg?
Six of Margot for a single season of Chapman?

Those strike me as overpayments. The first two were top 50 prospects before they exceeded their rookie limits this year and Margot is up to #24 on BA's midseason rakings. I don't disagree that a name or two that will hurt is going to have to leave to make this better but I question whether it makes sense to deal those high profile guys for 1 year of control. The first two, for example, are basically the price for Hamels who would have at least 4 years left. (I don't want Hamels but it's a fair point for comparison). For a number of reasons I think the Sox would need to get at least two years of control in order to part with prospects of that caliber.

celticsman2009
07-24-2015, 12:11 PM
If I was in charge this is what I would do.

This year, right now. DFA Napoli and Victorino. Pedroia plays 1b, Betts plays 2b and JBJ plays cf, call up Castillo and start him every game the rest of the year, regardless of performance. Let him know that he is up to gain experience and not to worry about results, to ease any stress he may have trying to live up to his contract.

In the offseason tell Ortiz in the most respectful way possible that he is done. Han Ram goes to dh. #1 free agent target is Justin Upton for lf. #2 is Chris Young who can play all 3 outfield positions and hits right handed pitching excellent, even tho he is a righty.

1b. Pedroia, 2b. Betts, ss. Boegarts, 3b. Sandoval, c. Vasquez, rf. (hopefully)Castillo if not then Young, cf. JBJ, lf. Upton, dh. Han Ram. Bench is Holt, Hanigan, Castillo/Young.

I think a move to 1st would save alot of wear and tear on Pedroia and a move to 2nd would maximize Betts value. JBJ would obviously not be a downgrade in cf on defense.

Now pitching.

Bucholz, as unpredictable as he is, is a steal at $13 mil. He's my opening day #3 Porcello and Miley are my #4 and #5 as they are both under contract and plenty capable of living up to those standards. I strongly believe that Porcello will return to form once the pressure of being the ace of the staff is gone.

My #2 is free agent signing Wei-Yin Chen. 30 year old lefty, A.L. East tested and proven. Will be much cheaper than most of the big name free agent starters.

My #1 is Stephen Strasburg, acquired for ERod and Swihart.

#1. Strasburg, #2. Chen, #3. Bucholz, #4. Porcello, #5. Miley, #5a. Owens, #5b. Johnson.

For the bullpen I would sign Tommy Hunter. I would trade Marrero and Margot to the Reds for Chapman.

Thats a lot of heat in the middle innings with Light, Barnes, Kelly and Hunter.

Tazawa to Koji to Chapman to finish off close games.

Chen is not that good. If he is your second best pitcher, that is a bad rotation, IMO.

ruckus16969
07-24-2015, 12:15 PM
You don't trade Pedoria. Just not a great idea for many reasons. The only way he gets moved is if we where completely blown away. Also you don't move him to first. He don't have the size or the bat to make him a very good 1B. He would basically be Joe Mauer at 1B. Not the production I want there honestly.Maybe train Moncada to play there.

I'd try to get Singleton in our system with trading off Koji and Kelly or someone. Joey Gallo is another name that I think of when I think about kids who could play 1B that could help us.

After realizing how cheap Bucholz is for the next 2 years I wouldn't trade him either. Same goes for Miley. Porcello we are just stuck with so it really don't matter. Then with BJonhson and ERod we only really need one SP next year. I make a hard run at Price. He would be a perfect fit. I don't care if they have over pay for him. Price and ERod sitting atop our rotation for the next 5/6 years would be incredible.

HanRam maybe to 1B for a year. Or for half of it until Ortiz gets DFA'D then you have Betts in CF Castillo in RF with JBJ backing them up. I wouldn't want us to spend 150+M to get Heyward or Upton when we have Moncada coming and some other decent dudes like Denvers Or Margot who could be transitioned to the OF. Maybe we loose enough games this year to be top 2/3 in the draft and we can draft a powerhouse 1B or LF option.

Next I work on the BP. I'd trade Koji now to Houston for a Singleton type guy or to Pitsburg for one of there blocked OF kids. Could also see if Theo is interested over there in Chi. That team could really use a guy like Koji. We got ERod last year for a setup man in Miller so we could probably get a decent return for a top 10 closer in the game who has experienced pitching in the playoffs.

I would trade Nap and Victorino for what ever we can get. If anyone wanted Kelly I trade him away to. Same with Masterson. I'd also Dangle Panda and HanRam and see if anyone nibbles. I'd only trade one of them though. If not hey at least we know we tried.

In the offseason I would build the best BP in baseball. We have the chips to make trades and we will have the money to spend on guys. I would get the best available closer and the best available set up guy and the best available lefty specialist. Gonna need a great BP with Milely/Porcello/Buch pitching 3 nights a week.

This team isn't that far from being potentially a very good team. If we can upgrade 1B by letting HamRam play there for half year till we Ortiz gets the boot then We only need a LF, SP, and a BP overhaul.

Petertherock
07-24-2015, 12:32 PM
Ortiz is not going to get DFA'd. The fans would go to war if they ever got rid of Ortiz before he was ready to go.

ruckus16969
07-24-2015, 01:12 PM
If he is hitting .200 with 5 HRs next July they would release him. Or figure something out. I was speaking figurlivety

papipapsmanny
07-24-2015, 01:13 PM
Again it says the Padres are listening on Tyson Ross.

I try and package a deal around Brian Johnson for him, JBJ, Marerro could be involved as well.

Porcello is not tradeable but Miley probably is, I would wait until the offseason to do so.

You Sign Zimmerman, or Price (try for 6 years). Sign Bullpen pieces (actually a big emphasis on the bullpen), and other than that I don't do anything.

Price/Zimmerman
Buchholz
Ross
Porcello
E-Rod

Betts CF
Holt LF
Pedroia 2B
Ortiz DH
Ramirez 1B
Bogaerts SS
Sandoval 3B
Castillo RF
Swihart/Vazquez C

Ross/Buchholz would both be under contract though 17, and E-Rod would still be in arb.

Outside the bullpen its just 2 trades (Getting Ross, and sending away Miley), and a major signing (either Price or Zimmerman)

ruckus16969
07-24-2015, 02:03 PM
Holt is your everyday LF?

I'm not sold on that at all. I'd sign Chris Davis in the offseason. A deal that looks like Pandas would probably get it done

papipapsmanny
07-24-2015, 06:19 PM
Yeah hate to break it to you... you can't have an all star at every position (which is ironic since Holt was our only all star).

Holt would offer youth and a cheap contract in LF and a player capable a being a 2+ WAR player

Signing Chris Davis to a deal like that would be a sick joke at best.

win red sox
07-24-2015, 10:56 PM
1) Trade Holt, De Aza, Koji to Was for Strasburg(was is looking for bullpen help and middle infield help) and is stacked with young pitchers.

2) Trade Pablo, Margot, Marco Hernandez, B Johnson to San Diego for Matt Kemp and Tyson Ross.

3) Trade Castillo,Cecchini, Chavis to Philadelphia for Giles and Diekman.

4) Sign Juan Uribe in the off season to a 1 year deal.

5) Explore trade for Chapman in the off-season.

2b Pedroia
CF Betts
SS XB
DH Ortiz
1B Hanley
LF Kemp
C Swihart
3B Uribe
RF JBJ

C Hannigan
UT Marrero
OF acquisition(DeAza?)
OF acquisition

SP Strasburg
SP Ross
SP E-Rod
SP Porcello
SP Buchholz/Miley(shop one in the off season)

C Giles
RH Tazawa
LH Layne
LH Diekman
LH Ross
RH Barnes
RH Acquisition

ruckus16969
07-25-2015, 12:25 AM
Yeah hate to break it to you... you can't have an all star at every position (which is ironic since Holt was our only all star).

Holt would offer youth and a cheap contract in LF and a player capable a being a 2+ WAR player

Signing Chris Davis to a deal like that would be a sick joke at best.

If Holt is playing everyday it will be at 3B or 1B.

Nobody said anything about an all star at every position Betts is no all star. Rusney is no allstar Pedi is no all star. XB was close Panda is a has been all star. HanRam not close anymore. Swihart? Not yet sir. Ortiz?? Nope I mentioned him getting released. Bucholz Miley or Porcello? They may be at some point but never all at once ERod couple years from that. BJ?? Maybe in 3 years??

Think before speak

ruckus16969
07-25-2015, 12:27 AM
1) Trade Holt, De Aza, Koji to Was for Strasburg(was is looking for bullpen help and middle infield help) and is stacked with young pitchers.

2) Trade Pablo, Margot, Marco Hernandez, B Johnson to San Diego for Matt Kemp and Tyson Ross.

3) Trade Castillo,Cecchini, Chavis to Philadelphia for Giles and Diekman.

4) Sign Juan Uribe in the off season to a 1 year deal.

5) Explore trade for Chapman in the off-season.

2b Pedroia
CF Betts
SS XB
DH Ortiz
1B Hanley
LF Kemp
C Swihart
3B Uribe
RF JBJ

C Hannigan
UT Marrero
OF acquisition(DeAza?)
OF acquisition

SP Strasburg
SP Ross
SP E-Rod
SP Porcello
SP Buchholz/Miley(shop one in the off season)

C Giles
RH Tazawa
LH Layne
LH Diekman
LH Ross
RH Barnes
RH Acquisition

I like all of this

GrkGawdofWalkz
07-25-2015, 08:04 AM
Blow up everything. The only players that I'm not trading are Eduardo Rodriguez, Xander Bogaerts, Dustin Pedroia, Mookie Betts, Swihart. Honestly everything else can go within reason on the 40 man roster. I'm so infuriated by this team in every other position.

RedSoxtober
07-27-2015, 10:56 AM
You don't trade Pedoria. Just not a great idea for many reasons. The only way he gets moved is if we where completely blown away. Also you don't move him to first. He don't have the size or the bat to make him a very good 1B. He would basically be Joe Mauer at 1B. Not the production I want there honestly.Maybe train Moncada to play there.

...

This team isn't that far from being potentially a very good team. If we can upgrade 1B by letting HamRam play there for half year till we Ortiz gets the boot then We only need a LF, SP, and a BP overhaul.
I don't think that you want to move Moncada to 1B. He is far too athletic to waste at 1B. He was challenged defensively when he first came to Greenville but has settled in very nicely. If we're comfortable letting him progress naturally at 2B for 2 years (or more) then he's a natural replacement for Pedroia and his offense at an up-the-middle position would make his value off the charts. A better option might be to get him time at 3B and make him an option to replace Panda (only b/c he probably gets to MLB quicker than Devers -- and he could move back to 2B when necessary).



You Sign Zimmerman, or Price (try for 6 years). Sign Bullpen pieces (actually a big emphasis on the bullpen), and other than that I don't do anything.


I've been very interested to see how the Sox are dealing with some of their younger pitchers. They've quite clearly shifted their approach in attempting to identify BP arms. Rather than just let everyone with upside work their way up as a SP and then fall off to a BP role they are switching guys to the BP and letting them fast track. Light is the most obvious example but there are a few others who've been converted this year as well and I do not think that it's a coincidence that the early season had the Sox brass acknowledging that the BP game had changed. They're looking for guys with gas.

None of that is to disagree with finding some arms on the market but only that we might have some options that would not have been considered bubbling up.

GrkGawdofWalkz
07-28-2015, 08:17 AM
I don't think that you want to move Moncada to 1B. He is far too athletic to waste at 1B. He was challenged defensively when he first came to Greenville but has settled in very nicely. If we're comfortable letting him progress naturally at 2B for 2 years (or more) then he's a natural replacement for Pedroia and his offense at an up-the-middle position would make his value off the charts. A better option might be to get him time at 3B and make him an option to replace Panda (only b/c he probably gets to MLB quicker than Devers -- and he could move back to 2B when necessary).



I've been very interested to see how the Sox are dealing with some of their younger pitchers. They've quite clearly shifted their approach in attempting to identify BP arms. Rather than just let everyone with upside work their way up as a SP and then fall off to a BP role they are switching guys to the BP and letting them fast track. Light is the most obvious example but there are a few others who've been converted this year as well and I do not think that it's a coincidence that the early season had the Sox brass acknowledging that the BP game had changed. They're looking for guys with gas.

None of that is to disagree with finding some arms on the market but only that we might have some options that would not have been considered bubbling up.

See if things were to pan out on Yoan Moncada, I see Pablo moving to 1B, Hanley potentially DH'ing after Papi retires, if he does in the near short term and Moncada at 3B. I don't see Pablo being here long term though. He seems like a likely Crawford/Renteria type that will force his way out of Boston. I'm sure he's a great guy, but his work ethic looks to be terrible.

RedSoxtober
07-28-2015, 10:48 AM
Unfortunately, the idea of moving HanRam to DH after Ortiz retires is a losing proposition. He's got vesting options for the next two seasons. (Granted, the 2017 option is a team option, so they have a bit more control there.) The net result is that HanRam is a DH only for his walk year.

Moving Panda to 1B is a meh move. It probably improves the team defensively compared to this season but his bat is nowhere near average for a 1B. He effectively neutralizes the advantage you have in Xander or Betts. The bat is slightly more tolerable at 3B but not by much. I think that even many offseason advocates of his signing would agree that he should be moved now but how many takers could you possibly have in one of the three worst defensive players in MLB who also has an 87 OPS+? That's below replacement level in every aspect of the game and most teams can provide that themselves with a kid who costs $500K. Unfortunately we're going to be stuck with him for a while. I honestly think that the most likely way we handle him is to promote a cheap alternative and use him as a corner UTL. Far less than ideal but at least a $500K kid makes the roster work.

bagwell368
07-28-2015, 11:31 AM
As meh a year as Headly is having, he'd look a lot better here than Fatty Panda.

I'm at the point where I hope Ortiz retires on his own or suffers a serious injury that forces retirement. He's a negative influence on the team and we are not playing in any WS's for the next few years, so he can't pull that rabbit out of the hat to make up for the rest of it.

Retire his number, get him in the HOF - whatever. This isn't the old days when Mays, Aaron, or Yaz could play well into their decline, and everybody was happy. The idea of a .243 hitter that whines about playing time, or contract status, and takes 29 seconds to round the bases after a HR? Done.

RedSoxtober
07-28-2015, 04:01 PM
I've been hoping for Ortiz to retire as well. I was surprised, however, to see how well he's been hitting lately. In 38 games since 6/10 he's at .275/.375/.616, 5-2B, 14HR despite a .238 BABIP. That kind of resurgence within the season will be enough for him to hang on... and on...

ruckus16969
07-28-2015, 06:25 PM
I don't mind him if he is hitting. Why not?

papipapsmanny
07-28-2015, 08:32 PM
I've been hoping for Ortiz to retire as well. I was surprised, however, to see how well he's been hitting lately. In 38 games since 6/10 he's at .275/.375/.616, 5-2B, 14HR despite a .238 BABIP. That kind of resurgence within the season will be enough for him to hang on... and on...

As long as He puts up positive WAR numbers I'm alright with it. It's not like he is making 20 million. Usually I'm not sentimental, the without the guy, we could still be working on a WS drought for all we know. He was essential to all 3 WS teams... so meh I can live with it

Bo Sox Fan
07-28-2015, 11:42 PM
This team desperately needs more power. I'd offer Pedroia + (but not much) to the Dodgers for Puig. Pedy can go play with his buddy Ethier while we keep the Cuban theme alive with Castillo and Moncada.

Get creative Ben, do something.

ruckus16969
07-29-2015, 12:53 AM
I thought something similar today and almost wrote it but then remembered Cespedes

Norieaga
07-29-2015, 09:51 AM
No to Puig. Immense talent but has clubhouse issues. We can't have that in this market, this team needs clean-cut players who can act like leaders when needed (ex. Pedroia). All it takes a bit of fried chicken or a bit of Instagram to set the media here on fire.

lucchesicourt
07-29-2015, 08:14 PM
It's time to see what the guys in the minors have top offer. This pitching staff has NOTHING. Owens and Johnson cannot do any worse. Place Nap on injured reserve. Let Ortiz play 1st on and off and, let Ramirez DH when Ortiz is in the field. I'd like to see an outfield of Betts, Castillo, and Bradley. See if we can cut off base hits, instead of letting balls fall in that should be caught. Maybe even bring in some other infielders to get a look of MLB. You just never really knpow what you have in the minors until you actually take a look. As proof, everyone was down on Iglesias cause he could not hit, Boggs came up and hit much better than he did in the minors, same with Lynn, Rice ripped in spring training, and they sent him down too. Just maybe someone in the minors actually belongs in the show. The season is DONE! let's see what the team really has available to contribute next year.

bagwell368
07-29-2015, 10:02 PM
As long as He puts up positive WAR numbers I'm alright with it. It's not like he is making 20 million. Usually I'm not sentimental, the without the guy, we could still be working on a WS drought for all we know. He was essential to all 3 WS teams... so meh I can live with it

The 3 WS teams are in the past, and he was critical for '04 and '13 - not so much '07.

He makes close enough to $20M a year - so far this year in 107 PA's vs LHP he's: .167/.187/.284

So, he's fat, old, won't play 1B, and is a platoon bat - currently with a 0.9 fWAR - what's that worth in the open market? $5M per?

bagwell368
07-29-2015, 10:12 PM
It's time to see what the guys in the minors have top offer. This pitching staff has NOTHING. Owens and Johnson cannot do any worse. Place Nap on injured reserve. Let Ortiz play 1st on and off and, let Ramirez DH when Ortiz is in the field. I'd like to see an outfield of Betts, Castillo, and Bradley. See if we can cut off base hits, instead of letting balls fall in that should be caught. Maybe even bring in some other infielders to get a look of MLB. You just never really knpow what you have in the minors until you actually take a look. As proof, everyone was down on Iglesias cause he could not hit, Boggs came up and hit much better than he did in the minors, same with Lynn, Rice ripped in spring training, and they sent him down too. Just maybe someone in the minors actually belongs in the show. The season is DONE! let's see what the team really has available to contribute next year.

Jeez, for a second you were making sense.

Iglesias? He's OK - about a 2.5 rWAR player, but a head case, also lost a whole year to injury - and not the stellar fielder everyone expected.

Boggs was: .318/.412/.386 in the minors; .328/.415/.443 in the Majors - and take away Fenway? (.369/.464/.527) - he was worse in the Majors then the Minors.

The Sox do not have any hitters ready for the Majors now or through the ASB next year that can hold a candle to Rice or Lynn. None.

However, clearly the season has been done for at least 8-10 days. Make deals and play kids.

taffi101
07-30-2015, 12:48 PM
Jeez, for a second you were making sense.

Iglesias? He's OK - about a 2.5 rWAR player, but a head case, also lost a whole year to injury - and not the stellar fielder everyone expected.

Boggs was: .318/.412/.386 in the minors; .328/.415/.443 in the Majors - and take away Fenway? (.369/.464/.527) - he was worse in the Majors then the Minors.

The Sox do not have any hitters ready for the Majors now or through the ASB next year that can hold a candle to Rice or Lynn. None.

However, clearly the season has been done for at least 8-10 days. Make deals and play kids.

It's funny, but I actually believe this season has been over for nearly a month...

As a fan of nearly 40 years, I actually had the opportunity to go to Fenway this year for the first time. It was amazing trying to take it all in, the atmosphere, the city, the ballpark ....absolutely wonderful to say the least. Then I had to watch the game....ruined the entire experience...lol

From having to watch Ortiz, a self proclaimed HOF'er, or at the very least implied, loaf around the entire game, jog to 1B, as hit hit into the shift each AB, to having to watch Sandoval boot absolutely everything..well yes my good sir, I knew this team was done...

There is so much wrong with this team, and the construct of it, I have to agree, I doubt there will be meaningful games played in September for a while.....

ruckus16969
08-01-2015, 06:43 PM
Shaw looked great today

papipapsmanny
08-01-2015, 06:58 PM
The 3 WS teams are in the past, and he was critical for '04 and '13 - not so much '07.

He makes close enough to $20M a year - so far this year in 107 PA's vs LHP he's: .167/.187/.284

So, he's fat, old, won't play 1B, and is a platoon bat - currently with a 0.9 fWAR - what's that worth in the open market? $5M per?

Obviously that is in the past. But good luck getting anyone to respect you if you go the route of releasing him.

07, yeah I'd he was a vital part of that team as well...don't really know what you are getting at there.

He has still put up an OPS+ of 119 wRC+ of 115 thus far, and both are respectable numbers considering its the 2nd worst year of his career.

Thus far he has been worth 7 million WAR dollars, so depending on what he does from here on out he will probably be "worth" 10-12 million.

And again you keep saying clubhouse cancer with him, but he is respected and the leader of the team, never have really heard even a whisper of teammates/coaches/FO having problems with him.

Now other teams and Umps different story, but who cares about them

ciaban
08-06-2015, 02:01 AM
As long as He puts up positive WAR numbers I'm alright with it. It's not like he is making 20 million. Usually I'm not sentimental, the without the guy, we could still be working on a WS drought for all we know. He was essential to all 3 WS teams... so meh I can live with it

Plus I doubt he leaves or the team makes him leave before he reaches 500 home runs. His next two years are options for 10 mill not really back breaking.

ciaban
08-06-2015, 02:08 AM
This team desperately needs more power. I'd offer Pedroia + (but not much) to the Dodgers for Puig. Pedy can go play with his buddy Ethier while we keep the Cuban theme alive with Castillo and Moncada.

Get creative Ben, do something.
I'm not sure how interested the dodgers would be with adding 60 million in payroll for Pedroia decline.
And dosen't Pedroia have 10-5 protection by now?

Bo Sox Fan
08-06-2015, 10:24 AM
I'm not sure how interested the dodgers would be with adding 60 million in payroll for Pedroia decline.
And dosen't Pedroia have 10-5 protection by now?

They took on Crawford and Beckett contracts just to acquire Gonzalez and his contract so Pedroia alone at $60 mil would be merely pocket change.

What's Pedy doing for this team right now? Sitting on the DL again. Just like last year, and the year before, and the year before. He's the Buchholz of position players.

RedSoxtober
08-06-2015, 05:46 PM
Plus I doubt he leaves or the team makes him leave before he reaches 500 home runs. His next two years are options for 10 mill not really back breaking.

My hope is that he retires after next year after hitting #500 in a Sox uniform.

His option is likely more than $10M. That's the base and it increases to $11M with 10 more PA this year (425), $12M after another 50 PA, and then $1M bumps for every 25PA after that until he hits $16M (or the value of a QO). He's on pace to max it out this year.

theGhost-isGone
08-06-2015, 09:03 PM
They took on Crawford and Beckett contracts just to acquire Gonzalez and his contract so Pedroia alone at $60 mil would be merely pocket change.

What's Pedy doing for this team right now? Sitting on the DL again. Just like last year, and the year before, and the year before. He's the Buchholz of position players.

Careful with this statement. A handful of years back, that was Jacoby Ellsbury in a lot of Red Sox fans' eyes. He's (Ellsbury) not worth his contract, but he's having a respectable year in his ~240 ABs. I'd rather have Pedroia at his cost than Buchholz or Porcello, both now and going forward.

Bo Sox Fan
08-07-2015, 10:12 PM
Not Victorino. Not Nava. Not Bradley Jr.

Wouldn't you know it. Give Castillo a regular role and he looks like part of the solution going forward. He's been here the whole time being held back by our (un)wise baseball minds calling the shots.

papipapsmanny
08-08-2015, 12:46 PM
Not really, I think everyone can acknowledge he is talented, but he didn't know what he was doing earlier in the year, probably still completely doesn't

RedSoxtober
08-10-2015, 09:45 AM
^ Yeah, from May 22 thru June 16 he appeared in 21 of 23 games (18 stars, 3 off the bench) and hit .232/.264/.290 and did not execute on some fundamentals. He was very impatient at the plate and looked lost. He needed the time in AAA to get his feet on the ground again; it's done him a LOT of good. At .333/.375/.444 since coming up from PAW he's starting to look like a guy you might give an eight figure deal.

Bo Sox Fan
08-10-2015, 10:24 AM
I drool over the possibility of having Heyward in right, Bradley in center and Betts at 2B.

If we truly do keep Pablo and to a lesser worry Ramirez, move fatty to first base and leave Hanley in left while trading for a defensive spark plug 3B like Brett Lawrie from Oakland.

ruckus16969
08-12-2015, 04:11 PM
I drool over the possibility of having Heyward in right, Bradley in center and Betts at 2B.

If we truly do keep Pablo and to a lesser worry Ramirez, move fatty to first base and leave Hanley in left while trading for a defensive spark plug 3B like Brett Lawrie from Oakland.

I don't want anything to do with Heyward

RedSoxtober
08-13-2015, 08:31 AM
I don't want anything to do with Heyward

I've gone back and forth on Heyward personally. With Betts establishing himself as a CF, Castillo finally making MLB-level adjustments, Margot available in the not-to-distant future, and Benintendi looking like a potential quick mover I don't really see a need to lock up a corner OF spot for big bucks and multiple years. If you could get him for 3-4yrs or less then maybe it makes sense to postpone decisions on the kids but otherwise I think his addition would create more problems than it would solve.

Shaiza
08-13-2015, 02:15 PM
I've gone back and forth on Heyward personally. With Betts establishing himself as a CF, Castillo finally making MLB-level adjustments, Margot available in the not-to-distant future, and Benintendi looking like a potential quick mover I don't really see a need to lock up a corner OF spot for big bucks and multiple years. If you could get him for 3-4yrs or less then maybe it makes sense to postpone decisions on the kids but otherwise I think his addition would create more problems than it would solve.

I really think some team is going to overpay him by a significant amount. I don't think he's worth a $200+ million dollar contract, but something tells me he's going to get it in the open market.

RedSoxtober
08-13-2015, 03:24 PM
Wow, I'd be shocked if Heyward got that much. That's 8yrs x $25M/yr territory. Heyward has a nice little track record but that's franchise player territory. Ellsbury/Choo money ($150M/7yrs) seems more likely especially since that's typing up for 'prime' years.

papipapsmanny
08-13-2015, 05:39 PM
I would be thrilled with Heyward. A guy who just turned 26, has has to seasons with a WAR over 5, and still has untapped potential. Yup sign me up.

Redsoxtober, you said it would cause more problems then it would solve didn't make much sense to me, because what you described was the problem of having too much talent, always a good problem.

Allows us to trade Margot and others for something of need. Heyward on a 7/8 year deal doesn't bother me. Keep it under 200 million and it is fine, let him walk when he is 33/34 that is perfect

Bo Sox Fan
08-13-2015, 05:57 PM
This team needs considerably more thump in the offence. There's way too many small ball / top of the lineup type hitters littering the card from 1 through 9 with the exception of a 40 year old who's ready to retire just over a year from now.

Using the Tulowitzki trade as a blue print perhaps Colorado would go for Sandoval, Owens and Margot in exchange for Carlos Gonzalez to play LF, Betts stays in CF, Castillo to RF and Manley to 1B.

I dunno. lol

MG956
08-13-2015, 06:00 PM
We have a limited budget to play with and splurging on a fielder isn't what we should be doing.

theGhost-isGone
08-13-2015, 08:16 PM
Using the Tulowitzki trade as a blue print perhaps Colorado would go for Sandoval, Owens and Margot in exchange for Carlos Gonzalez to play LF, Betts stays in CF, Castillo to RF and Manley to 1B.

I dunno. lol

I'd be alright with this, maybe sub Margot for JBjr and cash, but CarGo would be a nice LHH addition to a RHH heavy line-up. Put him at #2 behind Betts? Leaves us with a lineup like:

Betts
CarGo
HanRam
Ortiz
Pedroia
Bogaerts
Holt
Castillo
Vazquez/Swihart

Decent looking lineup, but our weakness is our rotation. Maybe we could sign Price or Cueto, but I wouldn't be surprised if we don't see a whole lot of shake-up in the rotation. Blame laid upon the pitching coach/manager (again) and we'll likely bank on the coaching changes being significant enough to turn around the young players. Let's not forget Beckett's (and to a lesser extent Lester's) up-and-down type career here. Maybe Porcello and/or Miley can turn it back around. Not sold on Kelly.

ruckus16969
08-14-2015, 12:35 AM
Cargo is a great idea. Then if we can wiggle Kang from Pittsburg we would have a pretty deadly offense.

Betts
Pedey
Cargo
HanRam
Ortiz
Kang
Rusney
XB
Swihart

Maybe get a BP piece from Pittsburgh. Then try to get a few more BP pieces and Cueto or Price and possibly Shields

Price/Cueto
Shields
ERod
Buch
Porcello

Millet traded for prospects. Johnson and Owens traded to different teams for Shields and BP pieces. Kelly to the pen.

Got a well ballanced lineup, very good rotation, and hopefully a lights out BP.

ruckus16969
08-14-2015, 12:40 AM
Maybe we can get the royals to sell Us Wade Davis . Then maybe we go hard for Chapman.

celticsman2009
08-14-2015, 11:36 AM
Cargo is a great idea. Then if we can wiggle Kang from Pittsburg we would have a pretty deadly offense.

Betts
Pedey
Cargo
HanRam
Ortiz
Kang
Rusney
XB
Swihart

Maybe get a BP piece from Pittsburgh. Then try to get a few more BP pieces and Cueto or Price and possibly Shields

Price/Cueto
Shields
ERod
Buch
Porcello

Millet traded for prospects. Johnson and Owens traded to different teams for Shields and BP pieces. Kelly to the pen.

Got a well ballanced lineup, very good rotation, and hopefully a lights out BP.

Just out of curiosity, what is your fascination with Kang? Also, a lineup of Bogaerts batting 8th is incorrect. He should be batting 3rd in your order. Idk if trading for Cargo is worth it. He's been injured and had soome decline.

RedSoxtober
08-14-2015, 04:16 PM
Redsoxtober, you said it would cause more problems then it would solve didn't make much sense to me, because what you described was the problem of having too much talent, always a good problem.

Our situation is already nearly untenable with HanRam forced into the OF because of the money he's getting to (not) hit the ball while Bradley, Betts, and Castillo split the other two spots. Adding Heyward forces you to move two players. I consider that to be a bad thing; when you're dealing contracts because you HAVE to then you're dealing them at a discount. That's just as true if you're dealing prospects as it is if you're dealing established players.

Moreover, I'm not digging the idea of giving Heyward $17M+ per year to play a traditional power position as a 113 OPS+ kinda hitter. I assume that this is the kind of thing that you think is part of his untapped potential but that's a heavier bet than I'd like to place, personally. He's only topped 20HR one time and his power numbers -- whether counting stats like 2B/HR or rate stats like SLG -- are not displaying any kind of upward trend. I'd probably place an equal bet that Margot matches 5yrs of his value in six years at Fenway as you might place on Heyward hitting on that untapped potential... but he'll do it earning the equivalent of less than two years' salary for Heyward.

I guess in the end I'll just say that I've lived in the Braves broadcast area and Heyward never blew me away except for his rookie season. That huge season at age 20 along with the pedigree of a great defender had lots of people excited around here. In the five years since it didn't take long for Freeman to surpass him among the fans and left most feeling like he never lived up to his billing let along filled out his potential. This, more than anything else, leaves me thinking of him as a nice complementary piece to some other big name in the lineup but not the guy you commit major dollars. It's probably a lot like the way you think of Porcello (if you discount this season) -- a nice 2/3 option on his better year but not worth a nine figure deal.

Bo Sox Fan
08-15-2015, 04:45 PM
I think Jackie Bradley Jr. has found "it"

Bos_Sports4Life
08-16-2015, 08:17 AM
Honestly, I wouldn't mind a Castillo-Betts-JBJ OF in '16...Not much thump but if JBJ can be something like a .270-.330-.400 type hitter? he's still a 3.5 WAR guy. Mookie will likely be 5.0+ and if Rusney chips in 2.0? That's still 10.0+ WAR coming from the 3 starting OF'ers.

Ortiz slow starts and turning 40, Hanley's lack of production, Pedroias prone to injury, Pablo etc. are all issues. Infield has a lot of issues.

Mookie has obviously become a very good defensive OF'er...but anyone think he may go back to 2B from time to time??

Bo Sox Fan
08-16-2015, 10:02 AM
I just read this article:

• The Royals will have a tough time re-signing several key players. Lorenzo Cain might be the easiest, but he’ll first want to see how Jason Heyward performs on the free agent market. While Heyward is four years younger than Cain, the average annual value “could be instructive” per Rosenthal. Cain is under control for two more seasons. Meanwhile, Alex Gordon can opt out after this season, and he looks like a lock to do so. Eric Hosmer and Mike Moustakas, both clients of Scott Boras, are also under club control for two seasons.

... Seeing this I'd like to change my outlook on this offseason. I'll pass on signing Heyward and jump on the idea of trading Pablo to San Diego for either Shields or Kimbrel + mediocre prospects.

My second transaction is signing Alex Gordon who's versatile (LF, 3B, 1B) to play 3B the majority of the time. He will be 32 next season so I'm going with 4 years, $70 million. (17.5 mil per)

1. R Betts RF
2. R Pedroia 2B
3. L Ortiz DH
4. R Ramirez 1B
5. R Bogaerts SS
6. L Gordon 3B
7. R Castillo LF
8. S Swihart C
9. L Bradley Jr. CF

papipapsmanny
08-16-2015, 10:42 AM
Sandoval is stuck here, but a Allen Craig, and Matt Barnes for Kimbrel could possibly work

Norieaga
08-16-2015, 12:03 PM
Why would San Diego give us Kimbrel AND prospects in exchange for taking on Sandoval and his contract? There's roughly a $40M difference between what's left on the deals. They can easily go trade Kimbrel for good prospects. Second, how would Allen Craig and Matt Barnes for Kimbrel work? Craig is dead-weight and has money left on his deal. Barnes is okay but not a must-have. Again, some team would definitely give a good prospect or two for Kimbrel.

Just playing devils advocate.

Bo Sox Fan
08-16-2015, 12:55 PM
I meant Boston would have to chip in prospects not SD. Sorry I worded it wrong.

Bo Sox Fan
08-16-2015, 01:00 PM
Sandoval is stuck here, but a Allen Craig, and Matt Barnes for Kimbrel could possibly work

Sandoval is not stuck here. Allen Craig and Matt Barnes would never land Kimbrel. You'd be lucky to acquire an empty used tin of sardines from any trade package involving Allen Craig.

BGeer091
08-16-2015, 02:12 PM
I'd love to acquire Kimbrel and Myers from San Deigo. I can't imagine they'd eat Pablo without us taking Shields. I know that rumors has been out there Shields for Pablo but I feel it would have happened if it was true.

Kimbrel
Myers

For

Johnson
Marrero
Guerra
Buttry
Cechinni

BGeer091
08-16-2015, 02:14 PM
Actually I'm not sure what I proposed for Myers and Kimbrel is enough.

Kelly
Johnson
Marrero
Guerra
Buttry
Cechinni
Acosta?

papipapsmanny
08-16-2015, 03:05 PM
Sandoval is not stuck here. Allen Craig and Matt Barnes would never land Kimbrel. You'd be lucky to acquire an empty used tin of sardines from any trade package involving Allen Craig.

You do understand that Sandoval probably has even worse trade value than craig right?

Bo Sox Fan
08-16-2015, 04:04 PM
You do understand that Sandoval probably has even worse trade value than craig right?

He does? Please explain how.

- Sandoval is still on the major league roster when he could be replaced by Holt or Shaw.

- Napoli gets dealt and first base becomes wide open for business. The Sox pass on calling up Craig and decide to just pay him heavily to play in the minors.

Sandoval >>> Craig, but whatever you choose to think.

Norieaga
08-16-2015, 04:24 PM
Its my understanding that Craig hasn't been brought up because the team doesn't want his AAV to count against the luxury tax. Can anyone confirm this? Either way, Craig has been very mediocre at AAA, no reason to think he'll do better in the bigs.

papipapsmanny
08-16-2015, 06:15 PM
He does? Please explain how.

- Sandoval is still on the major league roster when he could be replaced by Holt or Shaw.

- Napoli gets dealt and first base becomes wide open for business. The Sox pass on calling up Craig and decide to just pay him heavily to play in the minors.

Sandoval >>> Craig, but whatever you choose to think.

Pablo has been terrible in the field and terrible with that bat, and has a negative WAR value. Is super way overweight, and is guaranteed 75 million over the next 4 years.

Craig, by no means is doing well, but he is not overweight and he is owed 21 million over the next 2 years.... he is much more tradeable.

Sandoval is dead weight in its perfect definition

RedSoxtober
08-17-2015, 12:55 PM
Sandoval is not stuck here. Allen Craig and Matt Barnes would never land Kimbrel. You'd be lucky to acquire an empty used tin of sardines from any trade package involving Allen Craig.

IDK, I think the package of Barnes+Craig at least offers SOME hope of future reward as well as actual salary relief. Even with prospects I don't see any justification for the Padres to send Kimbrel for Sandoval. Panda costs more -- both AAV and years -- than Kimbrel. There's no way the Padres could justify taking on a guy who costs nearly 20% of their payroll while performing at a replacement level because they 'saved' money by ridding themselves of a contract worth 10-12% of payroll for a guy performing near the peak value for the position.

Craig+Barnes for Kimbrel might not get it done but I suspect that Panda for Kimbrel is even more a pipe dream unless the prospects are guys in the BA top 100.

RedSoxtober
08-17-2015, 01:10 PM
He does? Please explain how.

- Sandoval is still on the major league roster when he could be replaced by Holt or Shaw.

- Napoli gets dealt and first base becomes wide open for business. The Sox pass on calling up Craig and decide to just pay him heavily to play in the minors.

Sandoval >>> Craig, but whatever you choose to think.

Sandoval is on the roster is that he is earning more than twice what Craig is getting paid (actually 3x if you consider only AAV) and he was the big name FA; they've got to justify him somehow. The remotest prayer the Sox have for moving him is that he gets some hits in the last six weeks and convinces somebody that his season up until now is just a catastrophic adjustment to life away from the west coast. Craig, on the other hand, was the add-in to a trade for someone who did not want to pitch in BOS and forced the Sox into a deal. He was a buy-low guy from the outset and easy to bury in the system.

Craig completely lost his ability to hit the ball at the MLB level. That's obviously a bad thing for a guy who's not a great defender at any particular position. By contrast, Sandoval is among the 3 worst defenders in MLB at any position. If you factor in how quickly 3B decline in the field (one of the fastest attrition rates in MLB) he's not likely to offer much hope for improvement either.

So I guess it boils down to whether you'd rather pay $19M/yr AAV for -0.4WAR or $6M/yr for -0.5WAR. If I had to carry one (or were FORCED to trade for one) then I would take the second guy all day long. If you want to keep the first guy then good luck; you're franchise will be weakened by his payroll impact.

papipapsmanny
08-17-2015, 08:12 PM
Admittingly I thought Kimbrel was on the first year of his deal, so yeah my craig and Barnes for Kimbrel probably doesn't do it unless 1 or both of them finish this year strong

AI
08-18-2015, 07:45 PM
Any deal for Kimbrel has Guerra going to San Diego, they want a top SS prospect. If we didn't have so much pitching, I'd be fine with one of Panda/Hanley and Guerra for Shields and Kimbrel.

Having Shields here would be an issue: Clay, Shields, Porcello, Miley, E-Rod, Owens, Johnson, Wright, Kelly. Too many SP's. Kelly could be moved to the bullpen, as could Wright, but I still want all 3 of E-Rod, Owens and Johnson in the rotation next year.

theGhost-isGone
08-19-2015, 06:50 AM
moved this post to the other thread happy with the DD signing tho for real.

ruckus16969
08-27-2015, 03:06 PM
We have way to many starting Pitchers that project to be 3/5 pitchers. Now that's not a bad thing at all. We could get tremendous value out of 2 or 3 of these guys via trade. After we should push Kelly to the BP. Trade Miley or Buch then trade Johnson or wright and Owens.

That leaves us with

Porcello
Clay/Miley
Johnson/Wright
ERod

We use Owens and Johnson with Margot for a guy like Gray/Archer/Carassco/Salizer

Use Miley or Clay to get some top end BP pieces and possibly prospects or a 1B if we trade of HanRam

Then Sign the best FA pitcher to a mega deal Price

Sign ODay and another really good BP arm.

Trade for other BP pieces as well like Davis or Harris

Price
Gray/Corasco/Salizar/ Archer (Archer is my top choice) over pay do whatever you got to do.
ERod
Clay/Miley
Porcello
Wright 6thman

And get a BP that is lights out
Chapman/Kimbrel
Koji
O'Day
Davis
Kelly
Tazwa


Then we trade either of the lumps at our corners and sign Chris Davis to play 1st or 3rd

We could do all this and keep our payroll under 200m providing we don't have to eat much of what ever lump we dump off


Now we use O