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Stunner
07-19-2015, 09:32 PM
Ty Lawson - G - Rockets
The Nuggets have reportedly agreed to a trade that will send Ty Lawson to the Rockets.
Source: Adrian Wojnarowski on Twitter Jul 19 - 9:22 PM
Ty Lawson - G - Rockets
The Rockets are reportedly in "advanced discussions" on a trade to acquire Ty Lawson from the Nuggets.
It's no secret that Denver would like to move on from Lawson, and it looks like the Rockets are eager to pounce on that opportunity. If Lawson does wind up in Houston, Emmanuel Mudiay would become the starting point guard in Denver, while Patrick Beverley would shift to a reserve role in Houston. Lawson wouldn't have the ball in his hands quite as much playing next to James Harden, so his numbers could take a minor hit playing in Houston.

5ass
07-19-2015, 09:34 PM
If they waste any valuable assets on him, then its a bad move. I dont like his fit next to Harden at all.

xbrackattackx
07-19-2015, 09:35 PM
@WojYahooNBA: Sources: As part of deal for Ty Lawson, Houston will send Kostas, Pablo Prigioni, Joey Dorsey, Nick Johnson and a protected first to Denver. 9:23 PM

JEDean89
07-19-2015, 09:35 PM
they gave up nothing. clearly no market for the guy. papinkalou, prigs, dorsey, johnson and a protected 1st.

Stunner
07-19-2015, 09:36 PM
Lol I told people that his value was awful

Go_NUGGETS
07-19-2015, 09:38 PM
He's an undersized PG who relies on speed....when the tough gets going, Lawson usually is ineffective against lengthy guards--especially in the playoffs. Enjoy him while he still has his speed--that's his only advantage.

JEDean89
07-19-2015, 09:39 PM
Good news for Nuggs is we got Mudiay, so this isn't tough to stomach. Dude needs PT, and he keeps the Nuggs in the high lottery so they can keep drafting high.

flea
07-19-2015, 09:39 PM
Might be the worst starting defensive backcourt I can recall. Even Calderon/Ellis was better. Should be a ride.

Stunner
07-19-2015, 09:40 PM
The Rockets traded Kostas Papanikolaou to the Nuggets as part of Sunday's deal for Ty Lawson.
Denver also gets a 2016 first-round pick, Pablo Prigioni, Joey Dorsey and Nick Johnson in the deal, while the Rockets get back a 2017 second-rounder. Papanikolaou's salary isn't guaranteed until Oct. 4 so the Nuggets have the option to waive him, but they'll likely keep him to help backup Kenneth Faried at PF. His fantasy value is marginally better in Denver but he's still not a player to target on draft day.

Cal827
07-19-2015, 09:40 PM
:laugh2: That's all they had to give away for Lawson?! Wow... I know he's had serious issues of late, but goddamn. A bunch of fringe/role players and a late first?

So much loss of Value. Freaking Raptors got more for Barfnani

Stunner
07-19-2015, 09:40 PM
Might be the worst starting defensive backcourt I can recall. Even Calderon/Ellis was better. Should be a ride.

Harden has improved defensively and they should be ok with Dwight and Ariza out there .

JEDean89
07-19-2015, 09:42 PM
rockets get someone who can carry the load offensively when Harden is out. I would bring him off the bench and start Beverley. He would make an amazing 6th man.

0nekhmer
07-19-2015, 09:44 PM
Lawson is a solid scorer. I bet Harden+howard turns up every night before a game anyway so Lawson will fit right in

5ass
07-19-2015, 09:45 PM
Yeah I was shocked when people thought he was worth the Kings' 6th pick.

5ass
07-19-2015, 09:49 PM
Good news for Nuggs is we got Mudiay, so this isn't tough to stomach. Dude needs PT, and he keeps the Nuggs in the high lottery so they can keep drafting high.
I think they'll be somewhere in the middle of the lottery still. Gallo, Chandler and Faired will help them win some games.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-19-2015, 09:50 PM
Great value. Though the fit could be better since you ideally want a guy who has experience playing off the ball. But Harden said he wants to play off the ball more anyway.

mgjohnson7851
07-19-2015, 10:07 PM
Yeah I was shocked when people thought he was worth the Kings' 6th pick.
You're clearly missing the part where he got another dui and had to go to rehab for 30 days. Oh and his reaction when the nuggets drafted Mudiay. His value was a hell of a lot higher pre draft.

5ass
07-19-2015, 10:22 PM
You're clearly missing the part where he got another dui and had to go to rehab for 30 days. Oh and his reaction when the nuggets drafted Mudiay. His value was a hell of a lot higher pre draft.

His value was never that high. Any GM would probably take Mudiay over Lawson. He's an average PG. He was never going to land a potential star.

mgjohnson7851
07-19-2015, 10:28 PM
His value was never that high. Any GM would probably take Mudiay over Lawson. He's an average PG. He was never going to land a potential star.
15 and 9.5 is not an average pg. It wasn't that high, but with another player it would have been.

Scoots
07-19-2015, 10:49 PM
Good deal ... particularly if Lawson gets his life back in order. Perfect fit as 1/3 of the guard rotation with Bev and Harden.

5ass
07-19-2015, 10:49 PM
15 and 9.5 is not an average pg. It wasn't that high, but with another player it would have been.

High pace, **** defense, losing team. Theres just that many good point guards in the league, and the draft is deep with potential stars. The Kings made the right decision passing on Lawson. Easy decision IMO. I dont know which other players would've been included in the deal. I'm saying I wouldn't trade a top 10 pick for him.

numba1CHANGsta
07-19-2015, 10:54 PM
Lol the Rockets are nothing but a bunch of thugs

MonroeFAN
07-19-2015, 11:04 PM
15 and 9.5 is not an average pg. It wasn't that high, but with another player it would have been.

People need to stop saying this. He has regressed as a scorer each year he's been in the league, and he has been in an up tempo style offense for basically his entire career.

astrosmaniac
07-19-2015, 11:09 PM
High pace, **** defense, losing team. Theres just that many good point guards in the league, and the draft is deep with potential stars. The Kings made the right decision passing on Lawson. Easy decision IMO. I dont know which other players would've been included in the deal. I'm saying I wouldn't trade a top 10 pick for him.

2nd highest assist/TO ratio, 4th in assist percentage, only wall and CP3 had higher assists/48 min and a usg rate of 20. You can't put that productivity on pace

mgjohnson7851
07-19-2015, 11:10 PM
People need to stop saying this. He has regressed as a scorer each year he's been in the league, and he has been in an up tempo style offense for basically his entire career.
I'll just put it bluntly. This entire post is wrong. 15 and 9.5 were his stats this last season with Brian Shaw as his coach. The offense last year was anything but fast paced.

alexander_37
07-19-2015, 11:15 PM
I also beleive seeing a stat where Lawson was near if not tops in the league in points per drive. Believe Morey knows about that and wants to use it.

alexander_37
07-19-2015, 11:21 PM
PG: Lawson, Beverley, Terry (probably)
SG: Harden, McDaniels, Marcus Thornton
SF: Ariza, Brewer, Dekker
PF: Motiejunas, Jones, Harrell, Christian Wood
C: Dwight, Capela

That is a downright sexy roster.

I was on the fence about Lawson but they gave up literally nothing for him and damn does that look like a contender.

CluTcH_c1tY
07-19-2015, 11:23 PM
Haters going hate! The only downfall is the Rockets backboard defense. Pat Beverly off the bench should keep him fresh for the playoffs.

zn23
07-19-2015, 11:41 PM
If Lawson sobers up this is a massive acquisition for Houston and I think it puts them in contention.

The West is so top heavy right now. Spurs, Clips, Warriors and Rockets are obv. going to be the top 4 teams. Each of these teams could easily smash the Cavs or any team from the East if they make it to the Finals.

5ass
07-19-2015, 11:41 PM
2nd highest assist/TO ratio, 4th in assist percentage, only wall and CP3 had higher assists/48 min and a usg rate of 20. You can't put that productivity on pace

I'm not putting it all on pace. I'm aware of all those stats, that's why I never said he's a bad player. He's a very good player, a good PG, but in a league where everyone is set at PG. He was never going to get the Nuggets that 6th pick or anything close to that.

5ass
07-19-2015, 11:45 PM
I'll just put it bluntly. This entire post is wrong. 15 and 9.5 were his stats this last season with Brian Shaw as his coach. The offense last year was anything but fast paced.

They were 4th in pace.

H-town Mastodon
07-19-2015, 11:55 PM
Would this be a good time to re awaken the Rockets' Faith Boat...The Captain is at the ready

Scoots
07-20-2015, 12:04 AM
Would this be a good time to re awaken the Rockets' Faith Boat...The Captain is at the ready

Is Ladybaby on the faith boat already?

BallIsAll
07-20-2015, 12:04 AM
I'm not putting it all on pace. I'm aware of all those stats, that's why I never said he's a bad player. He's a very good player, a good PG, but in a league where everyone is set at PG. He was never going to get the Nuggets that 6th pick or anything close to that.



The Kings didn't have an above average point guard. Lawson is still better than rondo too. Also George Karl wanted him on the team.

H-town Mastodon
07-20-2015, 12:05 AM
Is Ladybaby on the faith boat already?

you darn right they are...thats a brand new feature to the faith boat for this upcoming season

Scoots
07-20-2015, 12:13 AM
you darn right they are...thats a brand new feature to the faith boat for this upcoming season

My nephew is the lead singer of Warbringer, just got back from an asian tour. He showed me Ladybaby. That dude is funny in interviews.

H-town Mastodon
07-20-2015, 12:20 AM
My nephew is the lead singer of Warbringer, just got back from an asian tour. He showed me Ladybaby. That dude is funny in interviews.

yeah i've seen interviews and he is just genuinely an interesting person

TrueFan420
07-20-2015, 12:30 AM
The Kings didn't have an above average point guard. Lawson is still better than rondo too. Also George Karl wanted him on the team.

All true but that doesn't make his value worth the 6th overall. The Kings should have tried a future 1st that's top 10 or 15 protected. But giving up their 6th would have been a bad move.

numba1CHANGsta
07-20-2015, 12:32 AM
The Rockets will still find a way to fail

mightybosstone
07-20-2015, 12:33 AM
Wow, I'm shocked this isn't getting more attention in the main forum, but this has the potential to be the second biggest acquisition of the entire offseason behind Aldridge signing with the Spurs. The Rockets' biggest weakness in the playoffs was their inability to get reliable offense outside of Harden and Howard and their lack of offensive playmakers, particularly when Harden wasn't on the floor.

Obviously I'm biased, but I've always been a fan of Lawson's game back to when he was still at UNC. He was crazy underrated going into that draft and he's pretty much been underrated his entire career. But in terms of overall productivity, he's probably a top 10 PG and has been for the past 4-5 years. He's an elite playmaker and immediately fills the biggest need of a team that won 56 games last season and made it to the conference finals. That's a huge deal.

And I know Morey gets crapped on A LOT on PSD, but can the guy get some freaking credit for the job he's done over the last few years? He essentially has turned a pissed off, disgruntled Kyle Lowry, a few mediocre first round picks, some so-so assets and cap space into a team with James Harden, Dwight Howard, Ty Lawson, Trevor Ariza and one of the deepest benches in the league. It's unbelievable.

mightybosstone
07-20-2015, 12:35 AM
Lol the Rockets are nothing but a bunch of thugs

Huh? What the hell are you talking about? Aside from Lawson's DUIs, what other off the court issues have Houston's players had?

Scoots
07-20-2015, 12:40 AM
Wow, I'm shocked this isn't getting more attention in the main forum, but this has the potential to be the second biggest acquisition of the entire offseason behind Aldridge signing with the Spurs. The Rockets' biggest weakness in the playoffs was their inability to get reliable offense outside of Harden and Howard and their lack of offensive playmakers, particularly when Harden wasn't on the floor.

Obviously I'm biased, but I've always been a fan of Lawson's game back to when he was still at UNC. He was crazy underrated going into that draft and he's pretty much been underrated his entire career. But in terms of overall productivity, he's probably a top 10 PG and has been for the past 4-5 years. He's an elite playmaker and immediately fills the biggest need of a team that won 56 games last season and made it to the conference finals. That's a huge deal.

And I know Morey gets crapped on A LOT on PSD, but can the guy get some freaking credit for the job he's done over the last few years? He essentially has turned a pissed off, disgruntled Kyle Lowry, a few mediocre first round picks, some so-so assets and cap space into a team with James Harden, Dwight Howard, Ty Lawson, Trevor Ariza and one of the deepest benches in the league. It's unbelievable.

DJ leaving then returning is certainly a bigger story, that and Lawson's 2 DUIs and questionable attitude have damped the enthusiasm.

Morey is a good GM, no doubt, but his mouth turns people off and his constant search for the next deal rubs some people the wrong way.

mightybosstone
07-20-2015, 12:47 AM
DJ leaving then returning is certainly a bigger story, that and Lawson's 2 DUIs and questionable attitude have damped the enthusiasm.
If I had a nickel for every really good athlete that had a ****** attitude and still contributed to a great basketball team, I'd have a shitload of nickels. Even if the guy gets suspended for half the season, this is a really, really big acquisition in the stacked Western Conference. I don't think there's team outside of the Spurs who added a player with the potential to have a larger impact for his new team.


Morey is a good GM, no doubt, but his mouth turns people off and his constant search for the next deal rubs some people the wrong way.
If I had a nickel for every solid front office manager of a professional sports team that was arrogant, I'd have a shitload of nickels (you can probably get my meaning at this point). I don't care whether he rubs people the wrong way or not. The man deserves respect for what he's done to this roster. It's nothing short of one of the best GM jobs by any GM in any professional sport over the past five years.

Verbal Christ
07-20-2015, 01:02 AM
High pace, **** defense, losing team. Theres just that many good point guards in the league, and the draft is deep with potential stars. The Kings made the right decision passing on Lawson. Easy decision IMO. I dont know which other players would've been included in the deal. I'm saying I wouldn't trade a top 10 pick for him.

Yeahhh. you dont think SacTown having like 5 other PG's had anything to do with the 'right decision to pass on Lawson'?

Mr.B
07-20-2015, 01:36 AM
Personally I think this is a bad fit. Lawson and Harden might be the worst starting back court in the West. Lawson made fun of Harden's defense earlier in the year but fact is Lawson's defense might actually be worst than Harden's.

Then factor in the fact that both Harden and Lawson are at their best with the ball in their hands. Are Rockets fans ok with taking the ball out of Harden's hands for extended periods of time during the game?

You also have to factor in Lawson's alcoholism. Houston is a big party town. I have a feeling that the city of Houston will eat Lawson alive. the temptation to hang out with beautiful women and rappers may be too much for him. He's already proven that he can't control himself.

mightybosstone
07-20-2015, 01:42 AM
Personally I think this is a bad fit. Lawson and Harden might be the worst starting back court in the West. Lawson made fun of Harden's defense earlier in the year but fact is Lawson's defense might actually be worst than Harden's.

Then factor in the fact that both Harden and Lawson are at their best with the ball in their hands. Are Rockets fans ok with taking the ball out of Harden's hands for extended periods of time during the game?

You also have to factor in Lawson's alcoholism. Houston is a big party town. I have a feeling that the city of Houston will eat Lawson alive. the temptation to hang out with beautiful women and rappers may be too much for him. He's already proven that he can't control himself.

Going to bed, but a lot is wrong with this post. Will address it in the morning.

Mr.B
07-20-2015, 01:43 AM
Going to bed, but a lot is wrong with this post. Will address it in the morning.

Look forward to your retort

Greg.
07-20-2015, 01:54 AM
Look forward to your retort

Just gonna guess but, it's gonna start with the "Harden and lawson being the worst backcourt in the west". I'm assuming you meant defensively but, even then it's probably not true. Then with the "ball in their hands" thing, it's true, they're both better with the ball in their hands but they're both great off the ball with spot up shooting and we have to have someone handle the ball and create beyond Harden anyway

rhino17
07-20-2015, 02:30 AM
LOVE THIS MOVE

such a perfect fit with Harden. A guy that can playmate in his own right and take dribbling pressure off of Harden. Couldn't think of 2 better PGs to compliment Harden with than Lawson and Bev

DillyDill
07-20-2015, 02:41 AM
Wow u Rocks fans were right didn't think u could get him. Ya'll even more nasssstttyyyy now sooooo much speed

Gander13SM
07-20-2015, 02:47 AM
Like somebody else mentioned Houston has a bad rep for players with bad habits. I remember reading in the "Jordan Rules" how teams would try to convince guys to stay in their hotel room during the entire trip and not go out.

This will be a true test of Lawsons character and his will power.

As for the basketball side, I disagree with what a lot of people here are saying. I really like Lawson, he's hands down one of the most underrated point guards of the last 3-4 years. The defense is questionable for Houston's back court but the offense will be so dynamic. And the system Houston likes to run is very uptempo which suits him perfectly.

If Houston manage to stay healthy and end up finishing outside the top 4 this year I will be shocked. I can forsee a rematch of last year's conference final happening. Even with Spurs and others improving.

The one thing that really let Houston down in the playoffs was the lack of a second "go to" scorer. Someone who can create a shot for himself or create one for others consistently. Last year Lawson was top 10 in points produced per game (his scoring average + assists). I don't remember exactly but I think he was about 7th. And he's 27. So he's slap bang in the middle of his prime.

This was a very good move for Houston. If you didn't consider them contenders before then you have to now. Especially after Harden got that deep run under his belt this year, and his co-mvp worthy regular season.

The West was a bloodbath last year. It's going beyond that this year. I don't think there has ever been a conference this strong, it's been one sided for a long time now (decades) but this is something else entirely.

beasted86
07-20-2015, 02:48 AM
Definite improvement to their roster.

I also think he'll be their 6th man. It would be the right fit for him.

Putting him in the starting lineup is pretty much abandoning defense.

sagemania
07-20-2015, 03:26 AM
Great trade from the Rockets Perspective. They finally got someone who can help Harden and allow Hardens legs to be fresher for the 4th or the crunch time as now they can lighten the load on Harden. It dosent hurt that they got a borderline star for nothing!

sagemania
07-20-2015, 03:28 AM
Look forward to your retort

The comments you made in that retarted post were hilarious.

brandt
07-20-2015, 03:41 AM
Lol the Rockets are nothing but a bunch of thugs
You couldn't come up with anything better than THAT?

ewing
07-20-2015, 05:38 AM
Wow, I'm shocked this isn't getting more attention in the main forum, but this has the potential to be the second biggest acquisition of the entire offseason behind Aldridge signing with the Spurs. The Rockets' biggest weakness in the playoffs was their inability to get reliable offense outside of Harden and Howard and their lack of offensive playmakers, particularly when Harden wasn't on the floor.

Obviously I'm biased, but I've always been a fan of Lawson's game back to when he was still at UNC. He was crazy underrated going into that draft and he's pretty much been underrated his entire career. But in terms of overall productivity, he's probably a top 10 PG and has been for the past 4-5 years. He's an elite playmaker and immediately fills the biggest need of a team that won 56 games last season and made it to the conference finals. That's a huge deal.

And I know Morey gets crapped on A LOT on PSD, but can the guy get some freaking credit for the job he's done over the last few years? He essentially has turned a pissed off, disgruntled Kyle Lowry, a few mediocre first round picks, some so-so assets and cap space into a team with James Harden, Dwight Howard, Ty Lawson, Trevor Ariza and one of the deepest benches in the league. It's unbelievable.

I think people recognize that Morey is a good GM. the cultish followers of him and Hinkie can be annoying but he definitely is a good GM and i think an example of how to maintain competitiveness while building a good team.

ewing
07-20-2015, 05:38 AM
anyway, love this move for Houston

sep11ie
07-20-2015, 07:09 AM
Definite improvement to their roster.

I also think he'll be their 6th man. It would be the right fit for him.

Putting him in the starting lineup is pretty much abandoning defense.

1. Harden wasn't bad this year on D
2. Ariza and Howard help out plenty in that department.
3. So I guess you are saying Prigioni and Terry were better at D? lol

mightybosstone
07-20-2015, 08:29 AM
Personally I think this is a bad fit. Lawson and Harden might be the worst starting back court in the West. Lawson made fun of Harden's defense earlier in the year but fact is Lawson's defense might actually be worst than Harden's.
I'm assuming you mean best defensive starting back court (otherwise that statement would be ridiculous). And I'll admit that was a real concern for me when the Rockets talked about trading for him. But Harden was not the defender last season that he was the previous two years. I'd almost be willing to call him average on that end of the floor. And with Beverley, they have a really solid point guard rotation that allows them to give opposing teams different looks. Plus they have one of the sets of defensive wings in the league between Ariza, Brewer, McDaniels and Dekker. Couple that with Dwight still anchoring the paint, and I really don't think defense will be that big of an issue this season. Hell, they played pretty good defense in the playoffs with Terry and Prigioni at PG, so I don't think Lawson can do much worse.


Then factor in the fact that both Harden and Lawson are at their best with the ball in their hands. Are Rockets fans ok with taking the ball out of Harden's hands for extended periods of time during the game?
Absolutely we are. That was kind of the whole point of targeting a PG this offseason in the first place. Look, Harden is an excellent playmaker, but the guy is being asked to do WAY too much offensively and play way too many minutes. It wasn't so bad in previous seasons because they had Lin and Parsons to help with the ballhandling duties, but with them gone, the Rockets offense was essentially Harden or bust last year. When Josh Smith is your second best playmaker, you know you have problems.

Also, I think the idea that two ball dominant players can't succeed in the same starting five is a total misnomer. Look at pretty much any great duo or trio in NBA history and you'll find guys that "needed the ball in their hands to be successful." There are 48 minutes in an NBA game and a whole bunch of possessions. There's more than enough basketball to go around. Plus, I assume the Rockets will run their rotation so that Lawson or Harden are on the floor at all times, meaning that Lawson will probably run the offense without Harden for at least 10-12 minutes a game and Harden the same without Lawson for 15-20 minutes a night.


You also have to factor in Lawson's alcoholism. Houston is a big party town. I have a feeling that the city of Houston will eat Lawson alive. the temptation to hang out with beautiful women and rappers may be too much for him. He's already proven that he can't control himself.
Of all the legitimate concerns about Lawson, this is the one that bothers me the most. But the Rockets have two things in their favor that should really, really help prevent that from being a problem. First, they offer a winning team that should keep Lawson interested all season long. You have to think that Lawson's disinterest in playing for a losing basketball team had something to do with him getting those DWIs. Secondly (and this is the big one), Lawson is playing for a new contract in a couple of years. He's already on the verge of a serious suspension, but if he keeps this up, he's going to miss out on what could be a huge pay day. He could very well make $20 million or more a season in 2017 if he plays his cards right, but not if he keeps getting DWIs and can't stay out of trouble.

So do I think Lawson will work out in Houston? I have my reservations, but I think he's going to fit in perfectly here. This Rockets team is a 60+ win team on paper, and they should be a ton of fun to watch. Can't wait for October...

JasonJohnHorn
07-20-2015, 08:51 AM
This is a steal for the Rockets.

People are talking like Lawson is going to take the starting job, but I expect that Harden and Beverly will both be starting still, and that Lawson will be coming off then bench. This is great because if gives the Rockets one of the most effective playmakers coming off the bench. It isn't too often you have a back-up that can dish out about 10 assists per36 and only cause 2.5 turnovers. Yeah, he's small, so he gives up a litte size on defense, but if he's being brought in to rest guys, it won't be as big a deal as people think. It is something the coach has to monitor in terms of match-up issues from team to team, but this is a great addition.

It also gives them some insurance in terms of injuries to playmakers. Now they have a third ball handler outside of Harden and Beverly, so they don't have to ride those guys as much wiht the minutes.

LanceUpperCut
07-20-2015, 08:59 AM
This is a great move by Houston, I personally think he should be coming off the bench though seem's like a good 6th man type.

Corey
07-20-2015, 09:33 AM
He'd kill as a 6th man

pebloemer
07-20-2015, 09:37 AM
This is a great move by Houston, I personally think he should be coming off the bench though seem's like a good 6th man type.

If Harden has the ball enough to start games anyways, this would seem to make sense. Especially having a defender like Beverley helping on the perimeter

beasted86
07-20-2015, 10:15 AM
1. Harden wasn't bad this year on D
2. Ariza and Howard help out plenty in that department.
3. So I guess you are saying Prigioni and Terry were better at D? lol
I don't understand any of this.

Are you saying Terry and Prigioni were better for the team than Beverly? Are you saying defense doesn't matter because they survived in the playoffs without Beverly?

And yes, Terry and Prigioni are both better defenders than Lawson if we are going with some third option here.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-20-2015, 10:26 AM
Yeah I was shocked when people thought he was worth the Kings' 6th pick.

People overrate draft picks (in that range). But the reason Lawson has so little value has nothing to do with his play on the court. It has everything to do with him being a raging alcoholic.

Longhornfan1234
07-20-2015, 10:44 AM
Rockets are clearly the best team in Texas now.

Mr.B
07-20-2015, 11:22 AM
Just gonna guess but, it's gonna start with the "Harden and lawson being the worst backcourt in the west". I'm assuming you meant defensively but, even then it's probably not true. Then with the "ball in their hands" thing, it's true, they're both better with the ball in their hands but they're both great off the ball with spot up shooting and we have to have someone handle the ball and create beyond Harden anyway

Yea I meant defensively

Tony_Starks
07-20-2015, 11:30 AM
Good pickup, didn't have to give up any rotation guys.

Good enough to get dismissed in the second round.

Mr.B
07-20-2015, 11:34 AM
I'm assuming you mean best defensive starting back court (otherwise that statement would be ridiculous). And I'll admit that was a real concern for me when the Rockets talked about trading for him. But Harden was not the defender last season that he was the previous two years. I'd almost be willing to call him average on that end of the floor. And with Beverley, they have a really solid point guard rotation that allows them to give opposing teams different looks. Plus they have one of the sets of defensive wings in the league between Ariza, Brewer, McDaniels and Dekker. Couple that with Dwight still anchoring the paint, and I really don't think defense will be that big of an issue this season. Hell, they played pretty good defense in the playoffs with Terry and Prigioni at PG, so I don't think Lawson can do much worse.


Absolutely we are. That was kind of the whole point of targeting a PG this offseason in the first place. Look, Harden is an excellent playmaker, but the guy is being asked to do WAY too much offensively and play way too many minutes. It wasn't so bad in previous seasons because they had Lin and Parsons to help with the ballhandling duties, but with them gone, the Rockets offense was essentially Harden or bust last year. When Josh Smith is your second best playmaker, you know you have problems.

Also, I think the idea that two ball dominant players can't succeed in the same starting five is a total misnomer. Look at pretty much any great duo or trio in NBA history and you'll find guys that "needed the ball in their hands to be successful." There are 48 minutes in an NBA game and a whole bunch of possessions. There's more than enough basketball to go around. Plus, I assume the Rockets will run their rotation so that Lawson or Harden are on the floor at all times, meaning that Lawson will probably run the offense without Harden for at least 10-12 minutes a game and Harden the same without Lawson for 15-20 minutes a night.


Of all the legitimate concerns about Lawson, this is the one that bothers me the most. But the Rockets have two things in their favor that should really, really help prevent that from being a problem. First, they offer a winning team that should keep Lawson interested all season long. You have to think that Lawson's disinterest in playing for a losing basketball team had something to do with him getting those DWIs. Secondly (and this is the big one), Lawson is playing for a new contract in a couple of years. He's already on the verge of a serious suspension, but if he keeps this up, he's going to miss out on what could be a huge pay day. He could very well make $20 million or more a season in 2017 if he plays his cards right, but not if he keeps getting DWIs and can't stay out of trouble.

So do I think Lawson will work out in Houston? I have my reservations, but I think he's going to fit in perfectly here. This Rockets team is a 60+ win team on paper, and they should be a ton of fun to watch. Can't wait for October...

Yes, I meant on the defensive end. I'm not a Rockets fan but I will be interested to see how this pairing works. Like some have said here I think the fit would be better if Lawson is coming off the bench. I think Beverly is a better pairing for Harden on the court. Lawson could be the spark off the bench.

Again I'm not a Rockets fan but I do like watching good basketball and I hope that Lawson can keep himself out of trouble. He's a fun player to watch and it would be a real shame if he threw his career and his life down the drain. The Rockets should have John Lucas working with this guy right now (which I'm sure they do). Hopefully he can help keep Lawson on the straight and narrow.

Htownballa1622
07-20-2015, 11:42 AM
Good pickup, didn't have to give up any rotation guys.

Good enough to get dismissed in the second round.

Didn't you say we'd get bounced round 1 last year?

I guess that means this year if we get dismissed 2 rounds later than you predict then we'll go to the finals.

:D

JEDean89
07-20-2015, 12:05 PM
Rockets are clearly the best team in Texas now.

Spurs are better. Better Front court, just as good of wings and better PG. Better rotation players, better shooting, better defenders and better coaching. Spurs are honestly going to be unstoppable these next 2 seasons (assuming Duncan doesn't retire next summer).

Tony_Starks
07-20-2015, 12:08 PM
Good pickup, didn't have to give up any rotation guys.

Good enough to get dismissed in the second round.

Didn't you say we'd get bounced round 1 last year?

I guess that means this year if we get dismissed 2 rounds later than you predict then we'll go to the finals.

:D

I could've sworn I said 2nd round knockout was the ceiling but hey thanks to a epic Clipper fail I was still wrong so congrats on getting beat down by the champs, I'm sure getting the honor of that happening again this year would be exciting.....

Htownballa1622
07-20-2015, 12:15 PM
I could've sworn I said 2nd round knockout was the ceiling but hey thanks to a epic Clipper fail I was still wrong so congrats on getting beat down by the champs, I'm sure getting the honor of that happening again this year would be exciting.....

Well you were still wrong and it's nice to know you're usually wrong when pertaining to the Rockets.

My point also flew over your head. ;)

Gander13SM
07-20-2015, 12:34 PM
Honestly I don't see why people want Lawson coming off the bench. Having him out there as a starter creates so much more space for Harden. Dwight can go back to being a pick and roll guy and quit trying to post up (let Dmo do the posting up) and Beverley can attack second units (which I think he will have great success with). Having Lawson as a starter just makes way more sense.

I see no real argument to make him the 6th man other than one on one defense. Where Beverley is superior. The margins matter though. As a whole unit the defense won't suffer horrendously because they still have a strong defensive front court. And offensively the margins will be huge, having Lawson out there adds a whole new dynamic to that Houston offense.

If I'm completely honest, I don't like Hardens game. When he's moving the ball or breaking down defenders and hitting that step back or attacking with the euro step it's fine. Really enjoyable. When he's flailing his arms around on a desperate attempt to draw a foul it's awful to watch. Just my opinion. But with that said, I'm definitely going to enjoy watching this Houston team this year. I'm a fan of Lawsons game and I can't wait to see how they incorporate it.

Gander13SM
07-20-2015, 12:39 PM
Spurs are better. Better Front court, just as good of wings and better PG. Better rotation players, better shooting, better defenders and better coaching. Spurs are honestly going to be unstoppable these next 2 seasons (assuming Duncan doesn't retire next summer).

Unstoppable feels like a stretch. They're still better than Houston imo. But unstoppable? I wouldn't be surprised to see them finish ad a 3rd or even 4th seed.

KnicksorBust
07-20-2015, 12:46 PM
Yeah I am at work so I don't want to read through all these posts but anyone who doesn't think this is a great trade for the Rockets is a hater. The low risk for the huge upside is a no brainer. I agree with Corey and others that he is meant to be the A+ version of Lou Will/Crawford as a 6th man and they should keep Beverly starting.

Verbal Christ
07-20-2015, 12:55 PM
Didn't you say we'd get bounced round 1 last year?

I guess that means this year if we get dismissed 2 rounds later than you predict then we'll go to the finals.

:D

He's one of the bigger jokes on this site bro, just enjoy the chuckles, dude cant be taken seriously at all. When he's wrong its because of 'other' circumstances and he'll just appeal to emotion (getting beat down by the champs YAWN YAWN YAWN) You should know who's in the Cool Kid Houston Hater club by now.

rhino17
07-20-2015, 01:22 PM
Lawson is definitely starting.

Giving Harden another guy next to him who is actually capable of creating offense himself will only make Harden even more efficient. Lawson is not a worse defender than Terry and Prigs, Harden was in no way any kind of defensive liability last season and the rest of the starting lineup (Howard, Dmo, and Ariza) are all plus defenders. I'm not worried about it at all

5ass
07-20-2015, 01:32 PM
People overrate draft picks (in that range). But the reason Lawson has so little value has nothing to do with his play on the court. It has everything to do with him being a raging alcoholic.

Even before the DUI his value wasn't that high. The market sets his value, and not many teams were chasing him.

Sactown
07-20-2015, 01:48 PM
Even before the DUI his value wasn't that high. The market sets his value, and not many teams were chasing him.

Even before the DUI , he was seen as a player with a poor work ethic, who made bad decisions off the court and wasn't much of a leader on the court. He is seen as an undersized guard who relies on a quick first step approaching his 30's in the most stacked position in the league. Denver as well as the fans wanted him gone even before landing Mudiay in the draft . he doesn't have a desirable contract and teams didn't want to invest in a player who doesn't show the willingness to invest in the game or a franchise . This was all stated by a Denver beat writer who was a fan of Lawson a GM was also quoted saying that Lawsons trade value was equal to "If you have him , drop him off on someone else and turn around and run"

With all that being said Houston was the only franchise where I think Lawson can turn his reputation around, they're a contender who will keep him committed to the game and they're a franchise that doesn't need him to be a leader . Winning cures everything and they'll be a contender so I imagine this partnership will work well

Tony_Starks
07-20-2015, 02:25 PM
I could've sworn I said 2nd round knockout was the ceiling but hey thanks to a epic Clipper fail I was still wrong so congrats on getting beat down by the champs, I'm sure getting the honor of that happening again this year would be exciting.....

Well you were still wrong and it's nice to know you're usually wrong when pertaining to the Rockets.

My point also flew over your head. ;)

The point that you will lose in the Finals instead of the second round?

Got it. Enjoy the parade.

Htownballa1622
07-20-2015, 02:38 PM
The point that you will lose in the Finals instead of the second round?

Got it. Enjoy the parade.

Nah. No parade. If we lose in finals I'd be ok because that means we lost to Cavs and I'm a Lebron fan.

Maybe if we lost in finals our organization can hang banners to try and get Dwight to stay because it's worked before right?

Oh wait...

CluTcH_c1tY
07-20-2015, 02:47 PM
If I'm not mistaken Matt Bullard one of the Rockets broadcasters has stated multiple times that Harden is above 40% when he shoots from a spot up jumper. That being said Lawson should help in both distributing and draining open 3s.

Dade County
07-20-2015, 02:48 PM
PG: Lawson, Beverley, Terry (probably)
SG: Harden, McDaniels, Marcus Thornton
SF: Ariza, Brewer, Dekker
PF: Motiejunas, Jones, Harrell, Christian Wood
C: Dwight, Capela

That is a downright sexy roster.

I was on the fence about Lawson but they gave up literally nothing for him and damn does that look like a contender.


I like this mover for the rockets...

Lawson can attack the basket and either feed Howard or kick out for a 3; this will help out Harden from time to time, when he needs a couple of plays off (even though he does that on the defensive side of the ball anyway).

I'm liking the rotation of Lawson & Beverley (both cause problems to opposing teams in their own way)

Tony_Starks
07-20-2015, 02:57 PM
The point that you will lose in the Finals instead of the second round?

Got it. Enjoy the parade.

Nah. No parade. If we lose in finals I'd be ok because that means we lost to Cavs and I'm a Lebron fan.

Maybe if we lost in finals our organization can hang banners to try and get Dwight to stay because it's worked before right?

Oh wait...


If losing to Lebron in the Finals is what brings your franchise satisfaction then God Bless brotha, hope you get your wish!

And I don't know why you bring up Dwight of course our banners didn't impress him, he's already a champion.?

Tomfoolery aside though I'm still a fan of Ty, I'm not a part of the overreaction committee. Will allow Harden and Beverly to stick to what they do best.

A nice steal but still not good enough to overtake the champs or Spurs in my humble opinion.

Htownballa1622
07-20-2015, 03:03 PM
If losing to Lebron in the Finals is what brings your franchise satisfaction then God Bless brotha, hope you get your wish!

And I don't know why you bring up Dwight of course our banners didn't impress him, he's already a champion.?

Tomfoolery aside though I'm still a fan of Ty, I'm not a part of the overreaction committee. Will allow Harden and Beverly to stick to what they do best.

A nice steal but still not good enough to overtake the champs or Spurs in my humble opinion.

All good. Just friendly trash talk ;):p

I agree that they've got a ways to go. It's not an ideal fit and the Warriors are just a year more seasoned and potentially that much better.

I have a very different opinion of the Spurs than most but we shall see.

I do like their 25 year old rookie who's bounced around the d league before being signed though(I know he doesn't move the needle but look out for him. Jonathan Simmons. I played against this guy throughout high school and college.)

Ultimately the west will be difficult once again.

tredigs
07-20-2015, 03:12 PM
The Rockets actually managed to make themselves less likable. Touche'

EDUTEXANS
07-20-2015, 03:28 PM
I see a lot of people saying it won't work because Lawson is a pretty ball-dominant player and he can't play off the ball. He ranked 164h in USG% in the entire league, with a really low 20.6, while finishing 3rd in APG. For comparision, Westbrook finished with 38. That proves he can be efficient even without the ball in his hands all the time.

flea
07-20-2015, 03:47 PM
I see a lot of people saying it won't work because Lawson is a pretty ball-dominant player and he can't play off the ball. He ranked 164h in USG% in the entire league, with a really low 20.6, while finishing 3rd in APG. For comparision, Westbrook finished with 38. That proves he can be efficient even without the ball in his hands all the time.

USG% is just TO, FGA, and FTA. He's got the ball in his hands way more than 20% of the time when he's on the court. Ideally I think 20% USG is good for his skillset (I don't think any player should be over 30% ever), because he's an above average scoring guard but nothing special, but it doesn't mean he's good off the ball.

In fact, he's not very efficient off the ball at all. Last year he shot only 35.8% in catch and shoot situations (34% from 3) and took very few shots (1.8 per game) in that situation anyway. For reference, Beverly took 5.6 shots per game in those situations, most of them 3s, and made 37.1% (38.1% from 3).

He's not a very good shooter, but he's not an embarassment from 3. You're kidding yourself if you think he's a great off-ball option. If he's on the floor he should have the ball in his hands most of the time, otherwise you might as well keep the Harden/Beverly pairing because it's better.

Gander13SM
07-20-2015, 04:04 PM
USG% is just TO, FGA, and FTA. He's got the ball in his hands way more than 20% of the time when he's on the court. Ideally I think 20% USG is good for his skillset (I don't think any player should be over 30% ever), because he's an above average scoring guard but nothing special, but it doesn't mean he's good off the ball.

In fact, he's not very efficient off the ball at all. Last year he shot only 35.8% in catch and shoot situations (34% from 3) and took very few shots (1.8 per game) in that situation anyway. For reference, Beverly took 5.6 shots per game in those situations, most of them 3s, and made 37.1% (38.1% from 3).

He's not a very good shooter, but he's not an embarassment from 3. You're kidding yourself if you think he's a great off-ball option. If he's on the floor he should have the ball in his hands most of the time, otherwise you might as well keep the Harden/Beverly pairing because it's better.

Harden will be spending a lot of time off the ball I reckon. He's going to benefit a lot from that.

LeonFSU
07-20-2015, 04:24 PM
You have to think that Lawson's disinterest in playing for a losing basketball team had something to do with him getting those DWIs.

This is pretty nuts

BoSox47
07-20-2015, 05:06 PM
top two starting guard combo offensively in the league and probably worst defensive guard combo in the league.

Vinylman
07-20-2015, 05:27 PM
great get for HOuston... they basically gave up 8-10 spots in the draft next year... no biggie

alexander_37
07-20-2015, 05:43 PM
If losing to Lebron in the Finals is what brings your franchise satisfaction then God Bless brotha, hope you get your wish!

And I don't know why you bring up Dwight of course our banners didn't impress him, he's already a champion.?

Tomfoolery aside though I'm still a fan of Ty, I'm not a part of the overreaction committee. Will allow Harden and Beverly to stick to what they do best.

A nice steal but still not good enough to overtake the champs or Spurs in my humble opinion.

Well then I guess we should just fold the franchise. No point in trying since tony starks of pro sports daily's forum section says they can't win. Ill go tweet morey and let him know.

Tony_Starks
07-20-2015, 06:08 PM
If losing to Lebron in the Finals is what brings your franchise satisfaction then God Bless brotha, hope you get your wish!

And I don't know why you bring up Dwight of course our banners didn't impress him, he's already a champion.?

Tomfoolery aside though I'm still a fan of Ty, I'm not a part of the overreaction committee. Will allow Harden and Beverly to stick to what they do best.

A nice steal but still not good enough to overtake the champs or Spurs in my humble opinion.

Well then I guess we should just fold the franchise. No point in trying since tony starks of pro sports daily's forum section says they can't win. Ill go tweet morey and let him know.

Do it! He's active on twitter, I might get a shout out!!

Saddletramp
07-20-2015, 06:26 PM
http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2015/07/ty-lawson-gives-up-guarantee-on-201617-salary.html


Wow. Even less of a gamble. Lawson turned his final year into basically a team option.

astrosmaniac
07-20-2015, 06:37 PM
USG% is just TO, FGA, and FTA. He's got the ball in his hands way more than 20% of the time when he's on the court. Ideally I think 20% USG is good for his skillset (I don't think any player should be over 30% ever), because he's an above average scoring guard but nothing special, but it doesn't mean he's good off the ball.

In fact, he's not very efficient off the ball at all. Last year he shot only 35.8% in catch and shoot situations (34% from 3) and took very few shots (1.8 per game) in that situation anyway. For reference, Beverly took 5.6 shots per game in those situations, most of them 3s, and made 37.1% (38.1% from 3).

He's not a very good shooter, but he's not an embarassment from 3. You're kidding yourself if you think he's a great off-ball option. If he's on the floor he should have the ball in his hands most of the time, otherwise you might as well keep the Harden/Beverly pairing because it's better.

you also have to consider how they got those catch and shoots. Beverly was getting his catch and shoots from kickouts on harden drives and dwight double teams. Who on the nuggets team was really going to give lawson open looks on catch and shoots? I think it's not unrealistic to see his catch and shoot % jump up 3-5% based on the quality of the looks he will get. And he has been a better shooter in the past, it's not like he's always been an average to below shooter

EDUTEXANS
07-20-2015, 06:50 PM
USG% is just TO, FGA, and FTA. He's got the ball in his hands way more than 20% of the time when he's on the court. Ideally I think 20% USG is good for his skillset (I don't think any player should be over 30% ever), because he's an above average scoring guard but nothing special, but it doesn't mean he's good off the ball.

First, that's wrong. It is an estimate of how many team plays are used by a player when he is on the floor. And how many players are able to average 15 and 10 assists with an USG% of 20? He basically generates points, either by scoring or assisting, every time he touches the ball.


In fact, he's not very efficient off the ball at all. Last year he shot only 35.8% in catch and shoot situations (34% from 3) and took very few shots (1.8 per game) in that situation anyway. For reference, Beverly took 5.6 shots per game in those situations, most of them 3s, and made 37.1% (38.1% from 3).

But you're not taking into account that Beverley played with one of the best scoring wings in the league in a very spaced offensive system. Lawson has played with guys like Galinari and Chandler. Not being a really good shooter doesn't mean you're not an effective off the ball player. Based on what I watched of him, he seems a pretty good passer in catch-and-shoot situations, turning a long shot in an even better higher % shot.


He's not a very good shooter, but he's not an embarassment from 3. You're kidding yourself if you think he's a great off-ball option. If he's on the floor he should have the ball in his hands most of the time, otherwise you might as well keep the Harden/Beverly pairing because it's better.

I'm not saying that. I'm not saying he is great. And being a good off-ball player is not the reason the Rockets dealt for him anyway. They actually got him because he thrives with the ball in his hands, but unless they're thinking he'll play like 15 minutes a game, he'll play off the ball a lot. And I'm only saying it will work out, differently than what I said a million times last year about Rondo, and a little about Rubio this year.

EDUTEXANS
07-20-2015, 06:59 PM
http://www.hoopsrumors.com/2015/07/ty-lawson-gives-up-guarantee-on-201617-salary.html


Wow. Even less of a gamble. Lawson turned his final year into basically a team option.

Aside from the obvious decrease of risk in this deal, the other thing to consider is that he has agreed to it, so that definitely shows a great deal of commitment of his part. He'll now be paying for either get the money he was scheduled to make or a brand new contract. His agent already said he's really excited about joining the Rockets. And why wouldn't he be? He's going from a 30-win team, that just selected a PG to be the future of the franchise, to thinking he would go to the team everyone is getting away from, to a contender fresh off of a Conference Finals appearance. That would make me quit drinking.

flea
07-20-2015, 07:03 PM
you also have to consider how they got those catch and shoots. Beverly was getting his catch and shoots from kickouts on harden drives and dwight double teams. Who on the nuggets team was really going to give lawson open looks on catch and shoots? I think it's not unrealistic to see his catch and shoot % jump up 3-5% based on the quality of the looks he will get. And he has been a better shooter in the past, it's not like he's always been an average to below shooter

It wasn't any better the year before either. Maybe he improves some but he probably won't be as good of a spot-up option as Beverly and is much worse defensively. Not saying it's a bad move or anything, just correcting the guy who thinks he's some really good off-ball option.


First, that's wrong. It is an estimate of how many team plays are used by a player when he is on the floor. And how many players are able to average 15 and 10 assists with an USG% of 20? He basically generates points, either by scoring or assisting, every time he touches the ball.

If you don't believe me look it up here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html), what I said is correct. Maybe he takes more shots off the ball next year, but I wouldn't hope for him to shoot it like Jason Terry did. Well hope for whatever you want, it's an unreasonable expectation regardless though.

astrosmaniac
07-20-2015, 07:22 PM
It wasn't any better the year before either. Maybe he improves some but he probably won't be as good of a spot-up option as Beverly and is much worse defensively. Not saying it's a bad move or anything, just correcting the guy who thinks he's some really good off-ball option.



If you don't believe me look it up here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html), what I said is correct. Maybe he takes more shots off the ball next year, but I wouldn't hope for him to shoot it like Jason Terry did. Well hope for whatever you want, it's an unreasonable expectation regardless though.

yeah, but that year was the same issue. Aside from maybe andre miller who else would get him open looks consistently? I cant find the catch and shoot numbers, but i would be more curious to see his numbers from the year before that when he played on a good team with more options and a better system under Karl.

it's also encouraging that he shot greater than 42% from the corner 3, which is the rockets favorite shot. I think his value will be more playing with harden off the court or allowing harden to play well off the ball (which he has shown he can do), but i do think he can fit with harden handling the ball too.

EDUTEXANS
07-20-2015, 07:23 PM
It wasn't any better the year before either. Maybe he improves some but he probably won't be as good of a spot-up option as Beverly and is much worse defensively. Not saying it's a bad move or anything, just correcting the guy who thinks he's some really good off-ball option.

I see reading skills remain poor in this forum. Please read the part that you conventionally desconsidered in my last post, before "correcting" me again.


If you don't believe me look it up here (http://www.basketball-reference.com/about/glossary.html), what I said is correct. Maybe he takes more shots off the ball next year, but I wouldn't hope for him to shoot it like Jason Terry did. Well hope for whatever you want, it's an unreasonable expectation regardless though.

And that's not what you said, at all. It's a formula to estimate how many plays are used by a player. It's pretty easy to understand as well.


Usage percentage is an estimate of the percentage of team plays used by a player while he was on the floor.

mightybosstone
07-20-2015, 07:38 PM
This is pretty nuts

Why? Think about it. A guy who is motivated and playing for a championship caliber team is far less likely to drink and drive and ruin the situation he's in. Lawson not only was playing for a bad basketball team, but the guy clearly wanted out of Denver. Somebody in a bad work environment who isn't happy at their job is far more likely to commit a stupid mistake like this than someone who loves what they do and where they work.

I'm not saying his DWIs are directly related to the Nuggets losing games. But to say it absolutely had nothing to do with his poor choices at all seems a bit naive as well.

tredigs
07-20-2015, 07:46 PM
Why? Think about it. A guy who is motivated and playing for a championship caliber team is far less likely to drink and drive and ruin the situation he's in. Lawson not only was playing for a bad basketball team, but the guy clearly wanted out of Denver. Somebody in a bad work environment who isn't happy at their job is far more likely to commit a stupid mistake like this than someone who loves what they do and where they work.

I'm not saying his DWIs are directly related to the Nuggets losing games. But to say it absolutely had nothing to do with his poor choices at all seems a bit naive as well.

The only naive thing is to think that playing for Houston is a drastic lifestyle change for him. This isn't a guy who gives a **** about winning a championship. He's getting paid and getting ****ed up and loving being rich and famous, period. Like >50% of the league.

flea
07-20-2015, 07:49 PM
And that's not what you said, at all. It's a formula to estimate how many plays are used by a player. It's pretty easy to understand as well.

Here is what I said:


USG% is just TO, FGA, and FTA. He's got the ball in his hands way more than 20% of the time when he's on the court.

Here is the formula for USG% from the link I showed you:


100 * ((FGA + 0.44 * FTA + TOV) * (Tm MP / 5)) / (MP * (Tm FGA + 0.44 * Tm FTA + Tm TOV))

FGA, FTA, and TO. That is how it's calculated, it has nothing to do with ASTs or AST%. If you really want to get a decent idea of how much a player dominates the ball, add USG and AST together. He is ball dominant in spite of not being a volume shooter.

tredigs
07-20-2015, 07:50 PM
This is an idiot who has also been arrested in domestic abuse issues concerning his pregnant girlfriend, btw. He's a POS. A great talent. But a loser through and through.

mightybosstone
07-20-2015, 07:53 PM
The only naive thing is to think that playing for Houston is a drastic lifestyle change for him. This isn't a guy who gives a **** about winning a championship. He's getting paid and getting ****ed up and loving being rich and famous, period. Like >50% of the league.
Frankly I don't really care if he has a drastic lifestyle change or not. I don't care if he keeps drinking like a 21-year-old. That's his prerogative and his personal life. As long as he doesn't get into a car after getting hammered and it doesn't affect his play on the court, I couldn't care less.

tredigs
07-20-2015, 08:07 PM
Frankly I don't really care if he has a drastic lifestyle change or not. I don't care if he keeps drinking like a 21-year-old. That's his prerogative and his personal life. As long as he doesn't get into a car after getting hammered and it doesn't affect his play on the court, I couldn't care less.

Well, he obviously does get in cars after getting hammered... lol.

And those aren't his only arrests. He's clearly a terrible decision maker. That's your new PG. GL.

Inmates running the asylum in Houston. Team of idiots.

mightybosstone
07-20-2015, 08:10 PM
This is an idiot who has also been arrested in domestic abuse issues concerning his pregnant girlfriend, btw. He's a POS. A great talent. But a loser through and through.

I had never heard of this incident, but I looked it up out of curiosity. Not exactly your typical domestic abuse case. This wasn't assault. He was charged with harassment and property damage and the case was ultimately dropped. It does sound like he admitted to grabbing her, but he never struck her.

I'm not trying to justify it. You should never put your hands on another person if they don't want your hands to be there, and clearly he took it too far in that situation. But this isn't a Ray Rice or Greg Hardy case. So let's not paint all domestic abuse cases with a broad brush as if they're all the same.

EDUTEXANS
07-20-2015, 08:13 PM
Here is what I said:



Here is the formula for USG% from the link I showed you:



FGA, FTA, and TO. That is how it's calculated, it has nothing to do with ASTs or AST%. If you really want to get a decent idea of how much a player dominates the ball, add USG and AST together. He is ball dominant in spite of not being a volume shooter.

You don't have to play with the ball to assist. And I said that. Lawson is a pretty good off the ball passer. He's actually a great passer anyway you look at it. But a player with a low USG% is far less likely to get 10 assists a game that a guy with a 30 USG%.

tredigs
07-20-2015, 08:15 PM
I had never heard of this incident, but I looked it up out of curiosity. Not exactly your typical domestic abuse case. This wasn't assault. He was charged with harassment and property damage and the case was ultimately dropped. It does sound like he admitted to grabbing her, but he never struck her.

I'm not trying to justify it. You should never put your hands on another person if they don't want your hands to be there, and clearly he took it too far in that situation. But this isn't a Ray Rice or Greg Hardy case. So let's not paint all domestic abuse cases with a broad brush as if they're all the same.
Police needed to be called and arrests on both parties were made concerning Ty Lawson and his 6 month pregnant girlfriend. That does not happen to a well adjusted person. Ever.

EDUTEXANS
07-20-2015, 08:16 PM
The only naive thing is to think that playing for Houston is a drastic lifestyle change for him. This isn't a guy who gives a **** about winning a championship. He's getting paid and getting ****ed up and loving being rich and famous, period. Like >50% of the league.

Except he just agreed to make the final year of his contract totally unguaranteed to facilitate the trade and play for Houston. Does that tell you nothing? Because that implies the exact opposite of what you just said.

mightybosstone
07-20-2015, 08:22 PM
Well, he obviously does get in cars after getting hammered... lol.
That doesn't mean he will continue to do so. Past mistakes don't automatically guarantee future mistakes.


And those aren't his only arrests. He's clearly a terrible decision maker. That's your new PG. GL.
He's hardly the first really good professional athlete to get arrested, nor will he be the last. And no one is trying to justify his poor decision making off the floor. But there is a huge difference between what an athlete does on the court and what he does in his personal life. You should be able to separate the two as a sports fan. Obviously you don't want a ton of guys like that on your team, but you ultimately want your team to win games, and Lawson should help them do that.

Also, I have yet to find violent crimes in the guy's history. Those are the things that make me loathe professional athletes.


Inmates running the asylum in Houston. Team of idiots.
Umm... This seems pretty uncalled for. Care to justify this kind of a statement? Because that team of idiots went to the Western Conference Finals last season without two of its starters. Also, aside from Lawson, what other major off-the-court incidents have Rockets players been involved with?

kdspurman
07-20-2015, 08:47 PM
good pick up. especially if Bev goes down again

Saddletramp
07-20-2015, 08:57 PM
It's sports, not the goddamn Dove Awards. Take your moral high ground and stick it. If a player with Lawson's history was acquired by the Warriors, Tredigs wouldn't be saying the same things.



Edited out a butthole thing of me to say.

EDUTEXANS
07-20-2015, 09:11 PM
good pick up. especially if Bev goes down again

I hope adding Lawson helps him staying healthy for once.

Tony_Starks
07-20-2015, 09:12 PM
It's sports, not the goddamn Dove Awards. Take your moral high ground and stick it. If a player with Lawson's history was acquired by the Warriors, Tredigs wouldn't be saying the same things.



There's no way I can word this last sentence without alerting the mods, so I'll refrain.


What's the difference between the athletes we hear about about that drink and drive or smoke pot and the rest of the league?...They are dumb enough to get caught!

Saddletramp
07-20-2015, 09:19 PM
What's the difference between the athletes we hear about about that drink and drive or smoke pot and the rest of the league?...They are dumb enough to get caught!

Or the guys that cheat on their wives?


Oh wait. Sorry.

Verbal Christ
07-20-2015, 09:21 PM
Funny how posters become alter boys when it suits their argument.

Jeffy25
07-20-2015, 09:32 PM
Start Beverly, and bring Lawson off the bench when Harden sits.....I wouldn't start him next to Harden....ever.

Teeboy1487
07-20-2015, 10:11 PM
SA and Golden State still are better imo.

kdspurman
07-20-2015, 10:47 PM
I hope adding Lawson helps him staying healthy for once.

Yea less minutes, more nights off (if needed) etc... Southwest gets stronger

sagemania
07-20-2015, 10:47 PM
SA and Golden State still are better imo.

I agree. I think right now the tire goes

SA
Warriors

Tire 2

Houston
OKC
Clippers

Memphis

Tire 3 Pelicans

and the rest

brandt
07-20-2015, 11:03 PM
Good pickup, didn't have to give up any rotation guys.

Good enough to get dismissed in the second round.

You are the true definition of a troll!!! Cant ever say anything nice because of your jealousy and pure hate for whatever reason. According to everyone last year, they weren't even supposed to make it out of the first round. Say the Clippers gave up that series all you want, no one else would have come back like the Rockets did. And they did it without Montjunas and Beverly. Now they have 2 pretty good draft picks along with Lawson and didn't lose anyone other than a few scrubs and J Smith to free agency. They got whooped by the Warriors but no team won more than 2 games against them in the playoffs so who cares, they were clearly the best team. Too bad your trash talk is just opinions and you don't ever seem to have proof to back up your hateful statements.

CluTcH_c1tY
07-20-2015, 11:29 PM
I agree. I think right now the tire goes

SA
Warriors

Tire 2

Houston
OKC
Clippers

Memphis

Tire 3 Pelicans

and the rest
Fair enough I have the same rankings as well thus far into the offseason. Let's see what's in store once the games are played. Who would have thought OKC would be derailed by injuries? That kind of fate could happen to any of the top teams of the west.

Scoots
07-21-2015, 01:04 AM
tier

sagemania
07-21-2015, 01:16 AM
Fair enough I have the same rankings as well thus far into the offseason. Let's see what's in store once the games are played. Who would have thought OKC would be derailed by injuries? That kind of fate could happen to any of the top teams of the west.
The Thunder are to dependent on Durant. They'll be great if healthy, but Houston probably will have a second unit Lawson/Beverley, Brewer,Thornton, Jones and Capella which is going to be nasty in the open floor with Lawsons playmaking or even in the pick and roll situations. Lawson creating for Dwight and Capella with their leaping ability will be exciting to watch.

Gander13SM
07-21-2015, 02:24 AM
The only naive thing is to think that playing for Houston is a drastic lifestyle change for him. This isn't a guy who gives a **** about winning a championship. He's getting paid and getting ****ed up and loving being rich and famous, period. Like >50% of the league.

I'm not so sure. We've seen guys with bad attitudes turn it around when they join a team that's winning and has a legit chance to win it all.

Before he was a young rich dude loving getting drunk he was a little kid balling in his driveway or local park or whatever. Dreaming of hitting the game winning shot in the NBA finals. That type of thing is ingrained in you, those sort of goals drove him to get to the nba in the first place.

Now he might be all about the money and female companions that come with it. But there does exist a small possibility that playing with a contender wakes him up, gets him to realise he's in that position to get everything he's ever wanted since he was a little kid.

Denverbronco007
07-21-2015, 04:15 AM
Well, he obviously does get in cars after getting hammered... lol.

And those aren't his only arrests. He's clearly a terrible decision maker. That's your new PG. GL.

Inmates running the asylum in Houston. Team of idiots.



A team that made it to the western conference finals last year. Idiots? I think not. Idiotic post more deserving :)

Gogi93
07-21-2015, 07:33 AM
Lawson/Beverly/JET
Harden/Thornton/KJ
Ariza/Brewer/Dekker
Dmo/Tjons/Herzelll?
Howard/Capela/Heyes

Lose of Smoove to the clippers still hurts me, but IF HEALTHY/SOBER! this roster can make a splash in the west.

CluTcH_c1tY
07-21-2015, 08:09 AM
Lawson/Beverly/JET
Harden/Thornton/KJ
Ariza/Brewer/Dekker
Dmo/Tjons/Herzelll?
Howard/Capela/Heyes

Lose of Smoove to the clippers still hurts me, but IF HEALTHY/SOBER! this roster can make a splash in the west.
I don't think we'll be seeing Montrezl Harrell this year. He'll probably be playing in the dleague, as McHale rarely plays rookies (Capela was the exception due to the need for size).

Verbal Christ
07-21-2015, 11:23 AM
https://youtu.be/2ET9MT1nWV0

Rabble rabble "Houston are some meanies" rabble rabble " Ty and James can't play together" rabble rabble "Ty won't help them that much" rabble rabble

All you haters are just too adorable!! I just want to pinch your chubby cheeks and give y'all a nickle to go buy something sweet.

Scoots
07-21-2015, 12:38 PM
I don't understand people not loving this move. Would you rather have Prigioni or Lawson? That is the sum total of the question. Whether Lawson is superior to PG A or PG B on other teams doesn't matter at all. The only thing that matters is is he better than the previous worst PG on the roster? Yes, absolutely, a LOT LOT LOT better. Morey made his team significantly better than it was before the trade at a cost of the difference between a late first and a mid 2nd round pick and some garbage players. Good deal? No question. Done.

D-Leethal
07-21-2015, 12:43 PM
Not sure they have a better year than they did last year with this move. Lawson and Harden will be the worst defensive back court in the league and I struggle how they will both thrive at their highest levels together on the court. Both are ball dominant, undersized and like to play off the bounce from the same spots on the floor.

D-Leethal
07-21-2015, 12:44 PM
Upgrading in talent doesn't guarantee upgrade in W-L column.

mightybosstone
07-21-2015, 12:53 PM
Not sure they have a better year than they did last year with this move. Lawson and Harden will be the worst defensive back court in the league and I struggle how they will both thrive at their highest levels together on the court. Both are ball dominant, undersized and like to play off the bounce from the same spots on the floor.

Upgrading in talent doesn't guarantee upgrade in W-L column.
The Rockets won 56 games last year with Dwight Howard missing half the season and went to the conference finals with Beverley and Motiejunas missing the entire postseason. Not only will this team have more talent and be far deeper, but health could make a huge difference both in the win-loss column and their postseason success.

As for both Harden and Lawson being ball dominant players, I've already addressed this in other threads, but I think that's a really poor argument. Most great teams in NBA history have at least a couple of guys who need the ball in their hands to be effective. And any competent coaching staff knows to stagger the minutes of guys like Lawson and Harden so there's always a great playmaker on the floor at all times.

Defensively could be a challenge, but need I remind you that the Rockets made it to the conference finals with Jason Terry and Pablo Prigioni getting all of their PG minutes? Plus, the Rockets have one of the best sets of defensive wings in the league with Beverley, Ariza, Brewer, McDaniels and Dekker. And they have Dwight anchoring the paint. Perimeter defense should not be as significant an issue as people are making it out to be.

mightybosstone
07-21-2015, 12:59 PM
Also, why are people so quick to forget that Harden played on the same team with Durant and Westbrook? He was insanely efficient and effective on those OKC teams. Why shouldn't he be able to do the same thing on a team with Lawson when he'll still get a ton of touches? It's also worth noting that Lawson had his best seasons shooting the ball when he played on the same roster as Melo. Having more space and playing a little more off the ball should do wonders for his perimeter shooting.

Gander13SM
07-21-2015, 01:07 PM
The Rockets won 56 games last year with Dwight Howard missing half the season and went to the conference finals with Beverley and Motiejunas missing the entire postseason. Not only will this team have more talent and be far deeper, but health could make a huge difference both in the win-loss column and their postseason success.

As for both Harden and Lawson being ball dominant players, I've already addressed this in other threads, but I think that's a really poor argument. Most great teams in NBA history have at least a couple of guys who need the ball in their hands to be effective. And any competent coaching staff knows to stagger the minutes of guys like Lawson and Harden so there's always a great playmaker on the floor at all times.

Defensively could be a challenge, but need I remind you that the Rockets made it to the conference finals with Jason Terry and Pablo Prigioni getting all of their PG minutes? Plus, the Rockets have one of the best sets of defensive wings in the league with Beverley, Ariza, Brewer, McDaniels and Dekker. And they have Dwight anchoring the paint. Perimeter defense should not be as significant an issue as people are making it out to be.

To me, the term "wing" implies someone that can play either wing, SG or SF. I disagree with Beverley being a wing defender. I can't imagine him having any success defending Klay Thompson or Kevin Durant.

Aside from that I agree with everything you've said. All very fair points.

Vinylman
07-21-2015, 01:18 PM
Anyone blasting this move is simply trolling...

now whether the move gets them over the top in the WC is another issue...

but if healthy the rockets can EASILY make the finals

mightybosstone
07-21-2015, 01:36 PM
To me, the term "wing" implies someone that can play either wing, SG or SF. I disagree with Beverley being a wing defender. I can't imagine him having any success defending Klay Thompson or Kevin Durant.

Aside from that I agree with everything you've said. All very fair points.

You're essentially just arguing semantics, but Beverley can and has defended opposing SGs on a number of occasions. Call it whatever you want: wing defense, perimeter defense, guard defense, etc. The bottom line is that the Rockets have a number of player capable of defending the 1-3 on opposing teams.

H-town Mastodon
07-21-2015, 02:21 PM
You're essentially just arguing semantics, but Beverley can and has defended opposing SGs on a number of occasions. Call it whatever you want: wing defense, perimeter defense, guard defense, etc. The bottom line is that the Rockets have a number of player capable of defending the 1-3 on opposing teams.

We are including Capela in that perimeter defender talk too?...still can't stop thinking about him guarding Curry surprisingly good

gah I'm just giddy for the season to start now...we have a deep team and considering we went from playing Terry and Prigs in the Conference Finals to now having a Lawson/Bev rotation just makes it better

And while I will miss yelling "no no no no no oh he made it" at Josh Smith as he attempts a 3, i can feel better knowing we have two less players (Smith,Dorsey) who teams can not incorporate a "hack-a" maneuver on. Really only Dwight and maybe Chuckwagon if he signs are horrible FT shooters while DMo,Capela, and TJones are in that 60-65% area

EDUTEXANS
07-21-2015, 07:09 PM
Not sure they have a better year than they did last year with this move. Lawson and Harden will be the worst defensive back court in the league and I struggle how they will both thrive at their highest levels together on the court. Both are ball dominant, undersized and like to play off the bounce from the same spots on the floor.

The Rockets ran a great defensive system under assistant JB Bickerstaff. They were able to not only survive losses of Howard (over 40 games) and Beverley (26, IIRC, plus the Playoffs), but also do a pretty good job without two of their three best defensive players. Over those stretches they had to go with Black, Dorsey and small-ball (Motiejunas, Smith and Jones) at center and guys like Canaan, Terry and Prigioni. They might go with three below averaged defensive starters, but they will also have 4 plus defensive players on their bench, assuming Lawson starts, which is kind of irrelevant, in my opinion. They will be fine in that end.

On the offensive end, MBT got it right. Both Lawson and Harden have showed they can play off the ball, and I see no reasons to think otherwise. They wouldn't work if one of them couldn't shoot to save their lives (like Rondo and Rubio, to an extent), but both can.

And again, Lawson being a ball-dominant guard is the main reasons we actually traded for him. That's what we lacked last season. Aside from Harden, there was no other to take the ball and create something other the Howard and Motiejunas posting up.

Scoots
07-21-2015, 07:20 PM
Upgrading in talent doesn't guarantee upgrade in W-L column.

Sure, but not upgrading a talent when you can with almost no negative repercussion who would opt not to?

Are you saying you would prefer Prigioni on your team over Lawson?

Scoots
07-21-2015, 07:24 PM
Anyone blasting this move is simply trolling...

now whether the move gets them over the top in the WC is another issue...

but if healthy the rockets can EASILY make the finals

"EASILY make the finals" ... ???

Sir, NOTHING will be easy in the western conference playoffs.

Scoots
07-21-2015, 07:28 PM
And again, Lawson being a ball-dominant guard is the main reasons we actually traded for him. That's what we lacked last season. Aside from Harden, there was no other to take the ball and create something other the Howard and Motiejunas posting up.

Exactly. The ONLY offense the Rockets could rely on from mid-court to the post was created by Harden. Harden, Lawson, and Beverley can split 96 guard minutes in whatever combination and make the guard positions offense and defense better than it was on average for last season.

sagemania
07-22-2015, 02:11 AM
Not sure they have a better year than they did last year with this move. Lawson and Harden will be the worst defensive back court in the league and I struggle how they will both thrive at their highest levels together on the court. Both are ball dominant, undersized and like to play off the bounce from the same spots on the floor.
That is why they have a **** load of good to great wing defenders. Beverley, Ariza, Brewer and McDaniels are all damn good defenders.

Vinylman
07-22-2015, 04:04 PM
"EASILY make the finals" ... ???

Sir, NOTHING will be easy in the western conference playoffs.

you know what i meant... I am saying it isn't far fetched like in other years....

Scoots
07-22-2015, 05:30 PM
you know what i meant... I am saying it isn't far fetched like in other years....

I actually didn't know ... there are people on this site who think their team is a lock for the finals every time they add any player :)

alexander_37
07-22-2015, 05:42 PM
I don't understand people not loving this move. Would you rather have Prigioni or Lawson? That is the sum total of the question. Whether Lawson is superior to PG A or PG B on other teams doesn't matter at all. The only thing that matters is is he better than the previous worst PG on the roster? Yes, absolutely, a LOT LOT LOT better. Morey made his team significantly better than it was before the trade at a cost of the difference between a late first and a mid 2nd round pick and some garbage players. Good deal? No question. Done.

****ing finally


Not sure they have a better year than they did last year with this move. Lawson and Harden will be the worst defensive back court in the league and I struggle how they will both thrive at their highest levels together on the court. Both are ball dominant, undersized and like to play off the bounce from the same spots on the floor.

So I guess they should have just stuck with

Pablo/Terry

instead of getting Lawson for nothing and having

Lawson/Terry

all because Lawson isn't an elite PG.

Might as well trade harden for Chris Paul because Paul is better right?

5ass
07-22-2015, 06:27 PM
We are including Capela in that perimeter defender talk too?...still can't stop thinking about him guarding Curry surprisingly good

gah I'm just giddy for the season to start now...we have a deep team and considering we went from playing Terry and Prigs in the Conference Finals to now having a Lawson/Bev rotation just makes it better

And while I will miss yelling "no no no no no oh he made it" at Josh Smith as he attempts a 3, i can feel better knowing we have two less players (Smith,Dorsey) who teams can not incorporate a "hack-a" maneuver on. Really only Dwight and maybe Chuckwagon if he signs are horrible FT shooters while DMo,Capela, and TJones are in that 60-65% area

Love Capela. Another steal by Morey.

SF8
07-23-2015, 08:19 PM
Do the Rockets now have maybe the worst defensive starting backcourt in NBA history?

rockets-fan
07-23-2015, 08:37 PM
Do the Rockets now have maybe the worst defensive starting backcourt in NBA history?

Can't be worse than with Terry as our starting PG...and we made it to the WCF with that backcourt

slashsnake
07-24-2015, 07:54 AM
Nice pickup, and since he was basically getting sent packing for anything they didn't give up much.. Watched probably 400 or so of his games (altitude in Denver, watched a LOT of Nuggets ball before last year)...


He has insane quickness.. Pushing the ball up the court and taking guys off the dribble. I kept hearing games where player X was the fastest point guard in the league, and Lawson was right with him if not faster.

Very good handler, very good passer. Loves transition.

Very erratic shooter. He can hit 10 3's in a game or go on a 0-20 streak. Kinda has some JR smith in him in that regard, but doesn't take as many bad shots.

He doesn't shoot that well from distance covered or off the dribble even if he is open... but looks ok on the catch and shoot when he's left alone (get harden the ball and kicking out to him may be good).

Tough... I'll say while undersized he will body up on guys. But not a good defender. Has moments, but nothing consistent.

Lacks a consistent attacking attitude. I can't tell you how many times he will just blow by a guy twice in a row then for the rest of the game just kind of stand on the perimeter and not try it again. I swear he can look like Harden for a stretch then just stop. Was so frustrating at times because it looked like 24-10 wouldn't be hard for him to do.

Has that goofy little guy step where he can get bigs in trouble close to the rim and draw fouls... The kind you hate unless he's on your team.

Chronz
07-24-2015, 10:47 AM
Sure, but not upgrading a talent when you can with almost no negative repercussion who would opt not to?

Are you saying you would prefer Prigioni on your team over Lawson?
I don't Know why he feels the need to point out the obvious when there are NEVER guarantees in sports to begin with. Upgrading talent tends to improve your team far more often than the alternative. Why not focus on that?

Chronz
07-24-2015, 10:48 AM
Can't be worse than with Terry as our starting PG...and we made it to the WCF with that backcourt

Terry competed tho.

IBleedPurple
07-25-2015, 04:07 PM
Can't be worse than with Terry as our starting PG...and we made it to the WCF with that backcourt

Terry competed tho.And didn't come to practice smelling like booze repeatedly...

Scoots
07-25-2015, 07:39 PM
And didn't come to practice smelling like booze repeatedly...

Lawson came to practice? You talking about practice man?

D-Leethal
07-26-2015, 05:01 PM
Sure, but not upgrading a talent when you can with almost no negative repercussion who would opt not to?

Are you saying you would prefer Prigioni on your team over Lawson?

I wouldn't take Prigs over Lawson, but I think upgrading talent doesn't overcome questionable fit 100% of the time. I think there is good reason to think Rockets don't win 56 games or make the WCF next year. Prigs was an ace shooter and ball mover, he was good fit for an interim role and they got it done during his run where he needed to play heavy minutes.

I'm a believer in fit and balance, you need talent to win in this league but Rockets already had the requisite talent, they took a step back in fit and balance if you ask me. I don't think they have a championship caliber squad, because they have too many weaknesses and Lawson adds to that (defense in the backcourt, and sticky finger isolation tendencies).

If you could picture a prime fit at PG next to Harden, Lawson's skillet, strengths and weaknesses are the complete antithesis of what you would imagine. They will win a ton of games on talent alone, but Lawson doesn't take them from a 56 win WCF team to a title team.

D-Leethal
07-26-2015, 05:02 PM
I don't Know why he feels the need to point out the obvious when there are NEVER guarantees in sports to begin with. Upgrading talent tends to improve your team far more often than the alternative. Why not focus on that?

Upgrading talent on a 56 win team doesn't always improve your team. If you are making a move on a 56 win WCF team, the move should not add to the few holes and weaknesses your team already has. It should improve on those. A team like last years Rockets needs small tweaks to cover weaknesses to get to a title level team, not major dynamic changing moves that add to those weaknesses. Rockets had more than enough offensive firepower as it was. Adding to that at the expense of perimeter defense and ball movement doesn't necessarily tell me they are better off.

smith&wesson
07-26-2015, 05:51 PM
Upgrading talent on a 56 win team doesn't always improve your team. If you are making a move on a 56 win WCF team, the move should not add to the few holes and weaknesses your team already has. It should improve on those. A team like last years Rockets needs small tweaks to cover weaknesses to get to a title level team, not major dynamic changing moves that add to those weaknesses. Rockets had more than enough offensive firepower as it was. Adding to that at the expense of perimeter defense and ball movement doesn't necessarily tell me they are better off.

Lawson/Bevery pg position depth is nothing to scoff at imo.

EDUTEXANS
07-26-2015, 05:53 PM
I wouldn't take Prigs over Lawson, but I think upgrading talent doesn't overcome questionable fit 100% of the time. I think there is good reason to think Rockets don't win 56 games or make the WCF next year. Prigs was an ace shooter and ball mover, he was good fit for an interim role and they got it done during his run where he needed to play heavy minutes.

I'm a believer in fit and balance, you need talent to win in this league but Rockets already had the requisite talent, they took a step back in fit and balance if you ask me. I don't think they have a championship caliber squad, because they have too many weaknesses and Lawson adds to that (defense in the backcourt, and sticky finger isolation tendencies).

If you could picture a prime fit at PG next to Harden, Lawson's skillet, strengths and weaknesses are the complete antithesis of what you would imagine. They will win a ton of games on talent alone, but Lawson doesn't take them from a 56 win WCF team to a title team.


Upgrading talent on a 56 win team doesn't always improve your team. If you are making a move on a 56 win WCF team, the move should not add to the few holes and weaknesses your team already has. It should improve on those. A team like last years Rockets needs small tweaks to cover weaknesses to get to a title level team, not major dynamic changing moves that add to those weaknesses. Rockets had more than enough offensive firepower as it was. Adding to that at the expense of perimeter defense and ball movement doesn't necessarily tell me they are better off.

I watched around 90 Rocket games last season, and I feel very confident to say you're wrong. You're right about talent and fit. And I now see what you were meaning before. But you're wrong about Lawson not being a good fit, in my opinion. Sure, he's not a good defensive player, but so isn't Prigioni or Terry. Prigioni is reallt active, and it leads to some pesky defense, and transition plays, but at 37, he doesn't have the speed or strength to play good man-to-man defense. And again, Beverley is one of the top defensive guards in the league. McDaniels is one of the top defensive prospects in the league. Ariza is one of the best perimeter lockdown defenders. Hell, Harden might become an above-average defender if he plays more off-ball on offense. Defense should not be a problem.

However, what was a problem, and that became really obvious for anyone who watched the Rockets in the Playoffs, was the lack of a second playmaker. A 3-D guy like Beverley playing next to Harden is fine, especially when Harden is on fire, but what happens in the 10-15 minutes Harden is on the bench? Or when Harden is having an off night? The Rockets depended too much on Harden, and it didn't work 100% of the times, no matter how well Harden played this past season. And it's not like Lawson is a bad three-point shooter. Prigioni shot UNDER 30% as a Rocket last season (both regular season and Playoffs). Terry shot 34% against the Clippers and 29% against the Warriors.

And if you think adding Lawson will hurt their ball-movement, well, I don't what to tell you.

D-Leethal
07-26-2015, 06:05 PM
I'm not saying Rockets aren't a great team, I am saying Lawson doesn't take them from where they were last year and put them into that first tier contender. They were already a 2nd tier contender. Adding Lawson didn't change that. Did they need a secondary perimeter playmaker? Yes, but I don't think that guy should be a ball dominant, volume shooting, undersized starting PG who doesn't compete a lick on D. They jumped at the best available talent upgrade with no regard to fit and balance, don't think it will bring them a title. Beverly probably finishes games for them this year. Rockets needed some small tweaks, not a complete roster-dynamic change just to get a second playmaker.

D-Leethal
07-26-2015, 06:06 PM
Lawson/Bevery pg position depth is nothing to scoff at imo.

Lawson is a great triple threat PG. Don't think he is remotely close to THE GUY you envision next to Harden in a championship backcourt. If Rockets are competing for a championship, Beverly is closing games, Lawson gets all of the minutes without Harden on the floor and takes a reduced role as a pseudo-starter.

alexander_37
07-26-2015, 06:46 PM
Upgrading talent on a 56 win team doesn't always improve your team. If you are making a move on a 56 win WCF team, the move should not add to the few holes and weaknesses your team already has. It should improve on those. A team like last years Rockets needs small tweaks to cover weaknesses to get to a title level team, not major dynamic changing moves that add to those weaknesses. Rockets had more than enough offensive firepower as it was. Adding to that at the expense of perimeter defense and ball movement doesn't necessarily tell me they are better off.

You mean adding a legit PG in a position where they made it to the WCF with 2 PG's who should be out of the league? AND GIVING UP NOTHING FOR HIM.

Yeah what a questionable addition.

alexander_37
07-26-2015, 06:48 PM
I'm not saying Rockets aren't a great team, I am saying Lawson doesn't take them from where they were last year and put them into that first tier contender. They were already a 2nd tier contender. Adding Lawson didn't change that. Did they need a secondary perimeter playmaker? Yes, but I don't think that guy should be a ball dominant, volume shooting, undersized starting PG who doesn't compete a lick on D. They jumped at the best available talent upgrade with no regard to fit and balance, don't think it will bring them a title. Beverly probably finishes games for them this year. Rockets needed some small tweaks, not a complete roster-dynamic change just to get a second playmaker.

How the **** does it not they had JASON ****ING TERRY STARTING. Let's say Terry is the mean and adds 0 wins. How much better is Lawson than him? Now factor in a healthy Beverly.

They are a better team just stop.

Gander13SM
07-26-2015, 07:17 PM
2nd tier contender? If Houston weren't a top tier contender last year who was? I mean aside from Warriors and Cleveland.

The real contenders last year were; Cleveland, Warriors, Houston, Memphis and maybe Spurs. That's it. Clippers were never getting past the second round. Portland wouldn't have made it out of the semis. New Orleans were fun but not a contender. Dallas was lucky not to be swept. The East was a joke after Atlanta fell off about 7/8 weeks before the post season. At a push you could argue Chicago but I don't think they were ever getting past Cleveland regardless.

D-Leethal
07-26-2015, 07:30 PM
You mean adding a legit PG in a position where they made it to the WCF with 2 PG's who should be out of the league? AND GIVING UP NOTHING FOR HIM.

Yeah what a questionable addition.


How the **** does it not they had JASON ****ING TERRY STARTING. Let's say Terry is the mean and adds 0 wins. How much better is Lawson than him? Now factor in a healthy Beverly.

They are a better team just stop.

You are oversimplifying it. It's not as black and white as adding more talent = better team. The reason Terry works is because the ball is in Hardens hands and Terry can get it done off the ball. How often do teams have two ball dominant players in the same backcourt? They don't, because it makes for an awkward fit and balance. Especially when they share the same weaknesses. They pair 3 and D guys with ball dominant guards, that creates fit and balance. That is who you want next to Harden. Teams downgrade in talent and get BETTER overall all the time, especially 56 win teams, it is not like that is unheard of, and it happens when subtracting certain talent creates a better fit.

Scoots
07-26-2015, 07:32 PM
You are oversimplifying it. It's not as black and white as adding more talent = better team. The reason Terry works is because the ball is in Hardens hands and Terry can get it done off the ball. How often do teams have two ball dominant players in the same backcourt? They don't, because it makes for an awkward fit and balance. Especially when they share the same weaknesses. They pair 3 and D guys with ball dominant guards, that creates fit and balance. That is who you want next to Harden. Teams downgrade in talent and get BETTER overall all the time, especially 56 win teams, it is not like that is unheard of, and it happens when subtracting certain talent creates a better fit.

So if the Warriors offered Curry for Beverley you'd say no?

alexander_37
07-26-2015, 07:35 PM
You are oversimplifying it. It's not as black and white as adding more talent = better team. The reason Terry works is because the ball is in Hardens hands and Terry can get it done off the ball. How often do teams have two ball dominant players in the same backcourt? They don't, because it makes for an awkward fit and balance. Especially when they share the same weaknesses. They pair 3 and D guys with ball dominant guards, that creates fit and balance. That is who you want next to Harden. Teams downgrade in talent and get BETTER overall all the time, especially 56 win teams, it is not like that is unheard of, and it happens when subtracting certain talent creates a better fit.

Ty lawson has primarily shot off the dribble since melo left. He still shoots 35-36% now with harden setting him up ( league leader in assists leading to 3 pointers) he was a 40% shooter as a catch and shoot guy.... Along with doing everything else better than terry.

D-Leethal
07-26-2015, 07:35 PM
2nd tier contender? If Houston weren't a top tier contender last year who was? I mean aside from Warriors and Cleveland.

The real contenders last year were; Cleveland, Warriors, Houston, Memphis and maybe Spurs. That's it. Clippers were never getting past the second round. Portland wouldn't have made it out of the semis. New Orleans were fun but not a contender. Dallas was lucky not to be swept. The East was a joke after Atlanta fell off about 7/8 weeks before the post season. At a push you could argue Chicago but I don't think they were ever getting past Cleveland regardless.

I would say Spurs, Dubs, Cavs, with Grizz sitting right on the outside looking in. Houston was not remotely close to capable of hanging with the Dubs and it showed.

D-Leethal
07-26-2015, 07:47 PM
So if the Warriors offered Curry for Beverley you'd say no?

Of course not. Curry is bigger, competes on D and is the best shooter on the planet. I get why Houston did what they did with Lawson, they are swinging for the fences and going for it. Doesn't mean it will work in their favor. Teams do it all the time and it doesn't work. Mavs were way better off with Jameer freakin' Nelson than they were with Rondo and Monta's game fell off a cliff once you took the ball out of his hands. A couple years back the Nets surged once Brook Lopez got injured. Knicks a few years back played like .800 ball during the 40 games Amare missed and like .400 ball with Amare on the court. Grizz were better with Prince than they were with Gay/Green. You can simplify it down to Lawson > Terry but the game doesn't work like that. You can't tell me this move guarantees Rockets are a better team next year. I think there is plenty of legitimate reason to think it could make them an easier out in the playoffs.

alexander_37
07-26-2015, 09:25 PM
I would say Spurs, Dubs, Cavs, with Grizz sitting right on the outside looking in. Houston was not remotely close to capable of hanging with the Dubs and it showed.

Because they didn't have a point guard.... aka someone to match up with GS' best player. Are you serious.

Steph went up against a 37 and a 39 year old over the hill and a never was.

Replay that series with Bev Lawson and Terry vs Terry and Priggi.

But nice try.

D-Leethal
07-26-2015, 10:22 PM
Because they didn't have a point guard.... aka someone to match up with GS' best player. Are you serious.

Steph went up against a 37 and a 39 year old over the hill and a never was.

Replay that series with Bev Lawson and Terry vs Terry and Priggi.

But nice try.

Steph Curry was the only reason the Rockets got their ***** whooped in a gentlemens sweep? Point guards are rarely checked 1v1 in today's screen heavy game, your problems with the Dubs aren't going away with Lawson and Beverly. You guys went 1-8 against them last year, they are on a whole nother level. You guys are a 2nd tier contender, accept it and move on.

alexander_37
07-26-2015, 10:24 PM
Steph Curry was the only reason the Rockets got their ***** whooped in a gentlemens sweep? Point guards are rarely checked 1v1 in today's screen heavy game, your problems with the Dubs aren't going away with Lawson and Beverly. You guys went 1-8 against them last year, they are on a whole nother level. You guys are a 2nd tier contender, accept it and move on.

Did I say the Rockets would have won? No GS was on fire this year. But you are Dee lusional if you think Lawson and Beverly wouldn't have made a difference especially since your BEST player was guarded by senior citizens.

D-Leethal
07-26-2015, 10:27 PM
Did I say the Rockets would have won? No GS was on fire this year. But you are Dee lusional if you think Lawson and Beverly wouldn't have made a difference especially since your BEST player was guarded by senior citizens.

I don't recall ever saying Lawson and Beverly wouldn't have made any difference at all in the series. Outcome of the series stays the same though, and Dubs are still scoring 110+ whenever they want.

Scoots
07-27-2015, 12:43 AM
Of course not. Curry is bigger, competes on D and is the best shooter on the planet. I get why Houston did what they did with Lawson, they are swinging for the fences and going for it. Doesn't mean it will work in their favor. Teams do it all the time and it doesn't work. Mavs were way better off with Jameer freakin' Nelson than they were with Rondo and Monta's game fell off a cliff once you took the ball out of his hands. A couple years back the Nets surged once Brook Lopez got injured. Knicks a few years back played like .800 ball during the 40 games Amare missed and like .400 ball with Amare on the court. Grizz were better with Prince than they were with Gay/Green. You can simplify it down to Lawson > Terry but the game doesn't work like that. You can't tell me this move guarantees Rockets are a better team next year. I think there is plenty of legitimate reason to think it could make them an easier out in the playoffs.

But it's not just Lawson > Terry ... it's Lawson > Prigioni and after that it doesn't matter.

You said teams "don't" have two ball dominant players because it doesn't work, so you wouldn't want Curry and Harden on the same team it stands to reason ... you also wouldn't want Harden, Durant, and Westbrook on the same team because they couldn't get to the NBA finals or anything :)

On the Mavs decline with Rondo, I think people consistently underplay the importance of Brandon Wright in that deal. He should have been in the discussion for 6th man, and losing him REALLY hurt the Mavs D, and their fast break offense.

Scoots
07-27-2015, 12:46 AM
2nd tier contender? If Houston weren't a top tier contender last year who was? I mean aside from Warriors and Cleveland.

The real contenders last year were; Cleveland, Warriors, Houston, Memphis and maybe Spurs. That's it. Clippers were never getting past the second round. Portland wouldn't have made it out of the semis. New Orleans were fun but not a contender. Dallas was lucky not to be swept. The East was a joke after Atlanta fell off about 7/8 weeks before the post season. At a push you could argue Chicago but I don't think they were ever getting past Cleveland regardless.

In the post finals trend ... if Chicago, Atlanta, Houston, and Memphis had been fully healthy they were all contenders, and chances are the Cavs don't make the finals without Love if Chicago had been healthy.

Gander13SM
07-27-2015, 02:07 AM
I would say Spurs, Dubs, Cavs, with Grizz sitting right on the outside looking in. Houston was not remotely close to capable of hanging with the Dubs and it showed.

People can say whatever they like. But at the end of the day the only teams that made the Western Conference final were Warriors and Houston. In my book that makes Houston Tier 1.

Saddletramp
07-27-2015, 06:01 AM
I would say Spurs, Dubs, Cavs, with Grizz sitting right on the outside looking in. Houston was not remotely close to capable of hanging with the Dubs and it showed.

All right, I've seen enough of this. The Rockets took the Warriors to two very close games to start the series in Oakland and won another one. I'm not saying with Bev and/or Lawson that they would have won any more games or the series, but "not close to capable of hanging with the Dubs"? and "it showed"? Take your trolly Stephenson sig out of here.


Also,Harden has said he wants help in the ball handling, play making department and guess what? That's what Lawson does.

Vinylman
07-27-2015, 08:20 AM
It is gonna be so funny when GS doesn't stay injury free this year and the excuse making begins...

mightybosstone
07-27-2015, 08:44 AM
I wouldn't take Prigs over Lawson, but I think upgrading talent doesn't overcome questionable fit 100% of the time. I think there is good reason to think Rockets don't win 56 games or make the WCF next year. Prigs was an ace shooter and ball mover, he was good fit for an interim role and they got it done during his run where he needed to play heavy minutes.
This paragraph makes it sound like Prigioni was a key cog in the Rockets winning 56 games and going to the Western Conference Finals. He was not. He played a whopping 402 minutes in the regular season and shot 34% from the floor and 27.5% from the 3-point line. He was terrible and only got minutes because of Beverley's injury. And he shot 33% from the floor and 29% from the 3-point line in the playoffs, so please don't make him seem like some kind of playoff hero. That couldn't be further from the truth. The guy has no business in a rotation for a contending team whatsoever.


I'm a believer in fit and balance, you need talent to win in this league but Rockets already had the requisite talent, they took a step back in fit and balance if you ask me. I don't think they have a championship caliber squad, because they have too many weaknesses and Lawson adds to that (defense in the backcourt, and sticky finger isolation tendencies).
You're missing one huge piece to the puzzle here, dude: Patrick Beverley. You're acting as if Lawson and Harden are going to play 30+ minutes on the floor next to each other every game. Why? The Rockets have a ton of versatility with their back court rotation and I assure you Beverley will probably see 15-20 minutes with Harden on the court at the same time. Hell, he might even start.


They will win a ton of games on talent alone, but Lawson doesn't take them from a 56 win WCF team to a title team.

Upgrading talent on a 56 win team doesn't always improve your team.
I'm a firm believe that you should expect the unexpected when it comes to professional sports. Great teams on paper don't always turn out great and mediocre teams on paper can end up surprising you. But I don't understand your "glass half empty" approach to this team. Sure, the Rockets aren't a lock to be better than last season. But why should they necessarily be a lock to be worse? Also, you're missing a huge variable here, which is health. The Rockets had more injury issues to deal with last season than any contending team outside of probably OKC. If Howard, Motiejunas and Beverley stay healthy, why can't this team win 60 games next year? I'd love to hear you justify that answer.


If you are making a move on a 56 win WCF team, the move should not add to the few holes and weaknesses your team already has. It should improve on those. A team like last years Rockets needs small tweaks to cover weaknesses to get to a title level team, not major dynamic changing moves that add to those weaknesses. Rockets had more than enough offensive firepower as it was. Adding to that at the expense of perimeter defense and ball movement doesn't necessarily tell me they are better off.
You're wrong. The Rockets BIGGEST weakness (and any Rockets fan who watched the team last season and in the playoffs will tell you this) was easily the lack of playmaking outside of Harden. He was a one-man offense last year, and teams figured it out and realized they could win games by shutting him down. Outside of those rare moments with Smith and Brewer went ham (like versus the Clippers in Game 6), the Rockets were essentially doomed when Harden had an off night.

Also, I noticed you referenced ball movement in this post. Why should adding a guy who averaged nearly 10 assists per game hurt the team's ball movement? I don't get that logic at all. Adding an excellent penetrator and passer like Lawson should get the Rockets shooters and big men a ton of extra open looks.



They jumped at the best available talent upgrade with no regard to fit and balance, don't think it will bring them a title. Beverly probably finishes games for them this year. Rockets needed some small tweaks, not a complete roster-dynamic change just to get a second playmaker.
Why does this have to be a "complete roster dynamic change?" Lawson is one player. I don't understand why the Rockets can't just incorporate Lawson into what they already do well offensively. You're making a ridiculous amount of assumptions about this team without ever watching them play a single minute on the floor together.


How often do teams have two ball dominant players in the same backcourt? They don't, because it makes for an awkward fit and balance.
Expand the conversation to SF, and the answer to this question is: VERY often. Look at some of the greatest teams in the history of the game, and you'll see plenty of teams that thrived with two ball handling guards or wings in the same starting five. Off the top of my head I can recall West and Baylor, Frazier and Monroe, Magic and Worthy, Pippen and Jordan, Parker and Manu, Lebron and Wade and Parker and Manu.

I'll never understand the notion that having two ball handlers and playmakers in the same starting five somehow hurts your team offensively. Why? What is the justification for that? Give me some examples where having two great playmakers in the same offense hurt that offense.


They pair 3 and D guys with ball dominant guards, that creates fit and balance. That is who you want next to Harden.
Oh, so you mean guys like Trevor Ariza, Patrick Beverley and Corey Brewer? Because I think the Rockets have a lot of guys like that actually. Where you're losing this argument at a fundamental level is that you seem to believe that Harden and Lawson have to play every single minute of the game together all the time. You completely fail to realize that the Rockets have a really deep set of guards and wings, and in fact, they probably have one of the best sets of perimeter defenders on their roster in the entire league. I assure you McHale will find a way to get those guys into the rotation so that the perimeter defense doesn't suffer.


Teams downgrade in talent and get BETTER overall all the time, especially 56 win teams, it is not like that is unheard of, and it happens when subtracting certain talent creates a better fit.
Of course. But more often than not, teams that get healthier and add talent get better. Professional sports is a tricky thing to predict, but you're not on the side of the norm here. You're on the side of the exception, and you really have no evidence to support your claim.


I would say Spurs, Dubs, Cavs, with Grizz sitting right on the outside looking in. Houston was not remotely close to capable of hanging with the Dubs and it showed.
Now you're just being silly. The Grizzlies are a better team than the Rockets? Why? They won fewer games than Houston and were eliminated earlier in the playoffs despite being relatively healthy for most of the season. Also, your argument that the Rockets "were not remotely close to capable of hanging with the Dubs" is just ignorant. Without two starters, the Rockets lost the first two games in Oakland by a combined five points and still managed to win one at home by double digits. That Game 2 was a coin flip. If it had been a different outcome, that series easily goes to six or seven games.


I don't recall ever saying Lawson and Beverly wouldn't have made any difference at all in the series. Outcome of the series stays the same though, and Dubs are still scoring 110+ whenever they want.
Except they didn't top 110 points in two of their five postseason games against the Rockets, and that was without Beverley in the lineup. So clearly they can't do it "whenever they want."

D-Leethal
07-27-2015, 09:45 AM
This paragraph makes it sound like Prigioni was a key cog in the Rockets winning 56 games and going to the Western Conference Finals. He was not. He played a whopping 402 minutes in the regular season and shot 34% from the floor and 27.5% from the 3-point line. He was terrible and only got minutes because of Beverley's injury. And he shot 33% from the floor and 29% from the 3-point line in the playoffs, so please don't make him seem like some kind of playoff hero. That couldn't be further from the truth. The guy has no business in a rotation for a contending team whatsoever.


You're missing one huge piece to the puzzle here, dude: Patrick Beverley. You're acting as if Lawson and Harden are going to play 30+ minutes on the floor next to each other every game. Why? The Rockets have a ton of versatility with their back court rotation and I assure you Beverley will probably see 15-20 minutes with Harden on the court at the same time. Hell, he might even start.



I'm a firm believe that you should expect the unexpected when it comes to professional sports. Great teams on paper don't always turn out great and mediocre teams on paper can end up surprising you. But I don't understand your "glass half empty" approach to this team. Sure, the Rockets aren't a lock to be better than last season. But why should they necessarily be a lock to be worse? Also, you're missing a huge variable here, which is health. The Rockets had more injury issues to deal with last season than any contending team outside of probably OKC. If Howard, Motiejunas and Beverley stay healthy, why can't this team win 60 games next year? I'd love to hear you justify that answer.


You're wrong. The Rockets BIGGEST weakness (and any Rockets fan who watched the team last season and in the playoffs will tell you this) was easily the lack of playmaking outside of Harden. He was a one-man offense last year, and teams figured it out and realized they could win games by shutting him down. Outside of those rare moments with Smith and Brewer went ham (like versus the Clippers in Game 6), the Rockets were essentially doomed when Harden had an off night.

Also, I noticed you referenced ball movement in this post. Why should adding a guy who averaged nearly 10 assists per game hurt the team's ball movement? I don't get that logic at all. Adding an excellent penetrator and passer like Lawson should get the Rockets shooters and big men a ton of extra open looks.



Why does this have to be a "complete roster dynamic change?" Lawson is one player. I don't understand why the Rockets can't just incorporate Lawson into what they already do well offensively. You're making a ridiculous amount of assumptions about this team without ever watching them play a single minute on the floor together.


Expand the conversation to SF, and the answer to this question is: VERY often. Look at some of the greatest teams in the history of the game, and you'll see plenty of teams that thrived with two ball handling guards or wings in the same starting five. Off the top of my head I can recall West and Baylor, Frazier and Monroe, Magic and Worthy, Pippen and Jordan, Parker and Manu, Lebron and Wade and Parker and Manu.

I'll never understand the notion that having two ball handlers and playmakers in the same starting five somehow hurts your team offensively. Why? What is the justification for that? Give me some examples where having two great playmakers in the same offense hurt that offense.


Oh, so you mean guys like Trevor Ariza, Patrick Beverley and Corey Brewer? Because I think the Rockets have a lot of guys like that actually. Where you're losing this argument at a fundamental level is that you seem to believe that Harden and Lawson have to play every single minute of the game together all the time. You completely fail to realize that the Rockets have a really deep set of guards and wings, and in fact, they probably have one of the best sets of perimeter defenders on their roster in the entire league. I assure you McHale will find a way to get those guys into the rotation so that the perimeter defense doesn't suffer.


Of course. But more often than not, teams that get healthier and add talent get better. Professional sports is a tricky thing to predict, but you're not on the side of the norm here. You're on the side of the exception, and you really have no evidence to support your claim.


Now you're just being silly. The Grizzlies are a better team than the Rockets? Why? They won fewer games than Houston and were eliminated earlier in the playoffs despite being relatively healthy for most of the season. Also, your argument that the Rockets "were not remotely close to capable of hanging with the Dubs" is just ignorant. Without two starters, the Rockets lost the first two games in Oakland by a combined five points and still managed to win one at home by double digits. That Game 2 was a coin flip. If it had been a different outcome, that series easily goes to six or seven games.


Except they didn't top 110 points in two of their five postseason games against the Rockets, and that was without Beverley in the lineup. So clearly they can't do it "whenever they want."

lol, I am making assumptions based on a team I've never seen play together and you're not or something? I'm giving my opinion on a situation I've seen backfire a lot in the NBA, especially in recent memory.

Does Rondo and his league leading assists promote ball movement too? I know Lawson is a great penetrator and passer. So is that other guy playing right next to him. Why would I move the conversation to SF? Forwards and guards don't occupy the same space on the floor and rarely occupy the same role on the court like Lawson and Harden will.

At least you see it is not a prime fit and for it to work Beverly is going to have to take on maybe a bigger role than Lawson, Lawson eats up all the minutes Harden is off the court and Beverly finishes games. Lawson should be a pseudo starter for the Rockets to get the maximum results they want out of this trade. I say pseudo starter because I doubt they have the balls to bring him off the bench.

Dude, Rockets got smoked in that series. It wasn't a close series and they got a gentlemens sweep. That game they won was when they were already down 3-0 to a 67 win team. GS never even came close to feeling threatened and you shouldn't be touting the fact that they dropped 110 3x in a 5 game series especially when the other two were 105 and 99. They averaged 109ppg in the freakin' conference Finals and won by an average of 8ppg. They had a 3-0 series lead at one point. It wasn't close.

Memphis plays championship defense in the playoffs, they were better equipped as a contender. Atlanta had a better record than Cleveland but nobody would give that reason for them being a contender.

I gave you my reasoning and "evidence", I've given you similar scenarios where the move backfired because of awkward fit and other pairings that never reach their full potential because of redundancy in strengths and weaknesses in the frontcourt and the backcourt. You are the one that providing any evidence to support your idea that this is a surefire move that will get you to the promised land.

mightybosstone
07-27-2015, 09:52 AM
lol, I am making assumptions based on a team I've never seen play together and you're not or something? I'm giving my opinion on a situation I've seen backfire a lot in the NBA, especially in recent memory.

Does Rondo and his league leading assists promote ball movement too? I know Lawson is a great penetrator and passer. So is that other guy playing right next to him. Why would I move the conversation to SF? Forwards and guards don't occupy the same space on the floor and rarely occupy the same role on the court like Lawson and Harden will.

At least you see it is not a prime fit and for it to work Beverly is going to have to take on maybe a bigger role than Lawson, Lawson eats up all the minutes Harden is off the court and Beverly finishes games. Lawson should be a pseudo starter for the Rockets to get the maximum results they want out of this trade. I say pseudo starter because I doubt they have the balls to bring him off the bench.

Dude, Rockets got smoked in that series. It wasn't a close series and they got a gentlemens sweep. That game they won was when they were already down 3-0 to a 67 win team. GS never even came close to feeling threatened and you shouldn't be touting the fact that they dropped 110 3x in a 5 game series especially when the other two were 105 and 99. They averaged 109ppg in the freakin' conference Finals and won by an average of 8ppg. They had a 3-0 series lead at one point. It wasn't close.

Memphis plays championship defense in the playoffs, they were better equipped as a contender. Atlanta had a better record than Cleveland but nobody would give that reason for them being a contender.

I gave you my reasoning and "evidence", I've given you similar scenarios where the move backfired because of awkward fit and other pairings that never reach their full potential because of redundancy in strengths and weaknesses in the frontcourt and the backcourt. You are the one that providing any evidence to support your idea that this is a surefire move that will get you to the promised land.
I'm at work now, but I'll address this when I get home. Needless to say, I disagree with pretty much everything and am disappointed that you dodged the majority of my points and questions.

D-Leethal
07-27-2015, 09:55 AM
I'm at work now, but I'll address this when I get home. Needless to say, I disagree with pretty much everything and am disappointed that you dodged the majority of my points and questions.

I don't clutter the forum with multi-quote posts going back and forth. I addressed your post. You didn't give me and points or questions worthy of dodging.

HeatFan
07-27-2015, 10:21 AM
rockets get someone who can carry the load offensively when Harden is out. I would bring him off the bench and start Beverley. He would make an amazing 6th man.

This seems like a good idea. He is better than probably most, if not all, backup PGs in the league.

alexander_37
07-27-2015, 10:21 AM
This guy is a troll. His whole argument is invalid, the rockets one biggest weakness was PG. They had 2 below replacment level players vs the mvp of the league. They get Beverly an all defense team pg and Lawson who can run an offense.

The rockets offense with Harden off the floor stalled every time. Their 2 biggest weaknesses were addressed.

Please try and tell me how terry and priggi were better fits. ( terry still being on the team as well.)

D-Leethal
07-27-2015, 11:28 AM
This guy is a troll. His whole argument is invalid, the rockets one biggest weakness was PG. They had 2 below replacment level players vs the mvp of the league. They get Beverly an all defense team pg and Lawson who can run an offense.

The rockets offense with Harden off the floor stalled every time. Their 2 biggest weaknesses were addressed.

Please try and tell me how terry and priggi were better fits. ( terry still being on the team as well.)

Rockets were clicking and playing great ball to finish the season with those guys. Terry and Priggi aren't sustainable as your full time starters I understand that. But there is a very good chance the team doesn't click around Lawson, another ball dominant over dribbling iso player with no D than it did around savvy veteran ball movers and catch and shooters, the same way it clicked to end last season and into the 3rd round of the playoffs.

Why do you keep brining up Beverly like he is the guy I brought up or something? He is a great fit, if he plays more than Lawson and finishes games like I suspect him too they will be better off. If Lawson is the guy they brought to run the second unit when Harden is off the court and they limit their time together during crucial stretches of games they will be better off. You don't want to build a team where you don't want two of your best players not being ideal to play with each other though - you don't want to build a team where two of your best players are redundant in every area and both huge minuses defensively. When you have to hide two of your best players from each other, that usually won't bring you a championship.

Lawson is the furthest thing from Harden's ideal PG you could possibly imagine. At least nobody even bothers to deny that.

Scoots
07-27-2015, 11:39 AM
It is gonna be so funny when GS doesn't stay injury free this year and the excuse making begins...

I'm not sure how injuries are not a reasonable reason for a team's play to decline. If multiple starters miss significant time and the team doesn't win as much then it stands to reason that those injuries will be a significant reason for the decline. That applies to every team in every sport. That however is not a corollary to the idea that if an injured team was healthy then they WOULD have won a specific game since we can't possibly know.

mightybosstone
07-27-2015, 12:03 PM
I don't clutter the forum with multi-quote posts going back and forth. I addressed your post. You didn't give me and points or questions worthy of dodging.
You claim two ball handling guards or wings can't thrive in the same offense, but then fail to acknowledge all of the examples I posted or provide examples of your own to suggest why it would fail. You claim Harden and Lawson cannot be successful without 3 and D guys around them, but then fail to acknowledge the many 3 and D guys already on the roster. You claim the Rockets won't improve from 56 wins, yet fail to acknowledge all of the injuries dealt with last season.

Basically, you pick which points support your argument and completely ignore those which dont. And you may not feel these points are worth addressing, but I disagree. Frankly I'd prefer you not respond to me at all than do a half *** job cherry picking the points you want to address. It's a waste of my time debating with someone who only wants to debate his half of the argument.

Vinylman
07-27-2015, 12:54 PM
I'm not sure how injuries are not a reasonable reason for a team's play to decline. If multiple starters miss significant time and the team doesn't win as much then it stands to reason that those injuries will be a significant reason for the decline. That applies to every team in every sport. That however is not a corollary to the idea that if an injured team was healthy then they WOULD have won a specific game since we can't possibly know.

What are you talking about dude...

My comment was directed at the Dleethal dude

The arrogance of some of the Dubs fans is getting old especially their inability to acknowledge that other teams injuries this past year played some role in their championship run...

I can guarantee you if the shoe was on the other foot he would be making the argument of how injuries effected GS...

D-Leethal
07-27-2015, 02:06 PM
You claim two ball handling guards or wings can't thrive in the same offense, but then fail to acknowledge all of the examples I posted or provide examples of your own to suggest why it would fail. You claim Harden and Lawson cannot be successful without 3 and D guys around them, but then fail to acknowledge the many 3 and D guys already on the roster. You claim the Rockets won't improve from 56 wins, yet fail to acknowledge all of the injuries dealt with last season.

Basically, you pick which points support your argument and completely ignore those which dont. And you may not feel these points are worth addressing, but I disagree. Frankly I'd prefer you not respond to me at all than do a half *** job cherry picking the points you want to address. It's a waste of my time debating with someone who only wants to debate his half of the argument.

I said a ball dominant guard thrives with a 3 and D guard next to him. You decided to change the conversation to forwards. You have one backcourt in the NBA - your guards should compliment each other, cover eachothers weaknesses, which is why nearly every single successful team uses that formula. I told you why I thought your inclusion of forwards was irrelevant, because Harden and Lawson occupy the same space on the floor, they thrive in the same role in the offense (top of the key penetration) and neither one can help the other on D by taking on a tougher assignment. Parker and Ginobili was the only one close, and Pop knew he had to bring Manu off the bench in that role and put a big, defensive guard next to Tony, and regardless Manu is a bigger guard, in his prime he played D, promoted ball movement better than Ty and Harden. I said it could work if you bring Lawson off the bench and went with Beverly during crucial stretches.

Rockets will be a different team next year, they played great ball last year and held their own during those injuries. I'm not convinced Lawson makes them better than a 56 win WCF team. There are a ton of factors that go into your record. Teams win more game but get less dangerous, they win less games but win a title. I don't see the Rockets emulating last years success or making a run to the WCF again.

I could easily accuse you of the same exact thing boss. And I believe you were the one who came in with a crying hissyfit over my post and not vice versa. So if you don't want me to respond, keep the crybaby fanboy **** to yourself. I dealt with the crux of your argument I don't need to address every half assed point you try to make. Your oversimplified arguments of "we upgraded our position of need" and "we won't be as injured" ignore too many dynamics of the game in a way I've seen too many times backfire.

D-Leethal
07-27-2015, 02:07 PM
What are you talking about dude...

My comment was directed at the Dleethal dude

The arrogance of some of the Dubs fans is getting old especially their inability to acknowledge that other teams injuries this past year played some role in their championship run...

I can guarantee you if the shoe was on the other foot he would be making the argument of how injuries effected GS...

lol, I'm not a Dubs fan.

tredigs
07-27-2015, 04:35 PM
Honestly my #1 concern for the team would be the accumulation of partying/degenerate type players. Only takes one to stir the pot at night, so to speak...

On paper (just not legal paper), it's a really strong squad.

Scoots
07-27-2015, 06:13 PM
What are you talking about dude...

My comment was directed at the Dleethal dude

The arrogance of some of the Dubs fans is getting old especially their inability to acknowledge that other teams injuries this past year played some role in their championship run...

I can guarantee you if the shoe was on the other foot he would be making the argument of how injuries effected GS...

Where did I say the Warriors lack of injuries played a part? Or that other team's injuries didn't play a part? In fact I didn't say ANYTHING about the Warriors in my post. What of it is arrogant?

Scoots
07-27-2015, 06:17 PM
Clearly Lawson is a MAJOR upgrade over Prigioni. How he's used is still an open question that the coaches have to answer. Before last season I doubt you would find many people saying Harden and the Rockets could do what they did last year, so why sweat it when they don't believe it can happen again?

mightybosstone
07-27-2015, 08:05 PM
I said a ball dominant guard thrives with a 3 and D guard next to him. You decided to change the conversation to forwards.
No. I didn't. I added SF to the conversation because position matters far, far less in today's NBA than it did 20 years ago. A SF in today's NBA could play the same role offensively as a PG or a PF. The position is irrelevent. The question isn't whether a team has two ball handling, ball dominant GUARDS in the starting five, it's whether a team has two ball handling, ball dominant PLAYERS in the starting five.


You have one backcourt in the NBA - your guards should compliment each other, cover each others weaknesses, which is why nearly every single successful team uses that formula.
Why can't Harden and Lawson compliment each other? Harden was at his most efficient playing more off the ball next to Westbrook or Durant. And Lawson had his two best three-point shooting seasons by a mile playing more off the ball in the same offense as Melo. I completely fail to see why these guys can't compliment each other. There's nothing wrong with having two guys who can penetrate, dish, shoot and/or score in the same back court. If anything, that versatility should be a strength, but for some reason you're treating it as a weakness.


I told you why I thought your inclusion of forwards was irrelevant, because Harden and Lawson occupy the same space on the floor, they thrive in the same role in the offense (top of the key penetration) and neither one can help the other on D by taking on a tougher assignment.
Why do they have to occupy the same space on the floor? Do me a favor and watch ANY Rockets or Nuggets game from last season and count the number of possessions that Harden or Lawson were on the floor and the possession didn't start with the ball in their hands at the top of the key. It was more than zero, wasn't it? That's because a ball handler doesn't have to start the possession with the ball in his hands to be effective, chief. Offenses don't work that way.


Parker and Ginobili was the only one close, and Pop knew he had to bring Manu off the bench in that role and put a big, defensive guard next to Tony,
Okay.... And why can't Houston do the same thing and split up Harden and Lawson's minutes so they're paired with a solid defender for most of the game? I don't understand why this concept is so hard for you to grasp. Are you really that dense or has years of watching mediocre basketball in New York confused you as to how the game is played and how rotations work?


I said it could work if you bring Lawson off the bench and went with Beverly during crucial stretches.
So you JUST explained how the problem could be fixed, yet you act as if this is some huge monumental issue that is totally unfixable. If you, of all people, can understand how a back court rotation works, I'm pretty sure an NBA coaching staff can as well. ;)


Rockets will be a different team next year, they played great ball last year and held their own during those injuries. I'm not convinced Lawson makes them better than a 56 win WCF team. There are a ton of factors that go into your record. Teams win more game but get less dangerous, they win less games but win a title. I don't see the Rockets emulating last years success or making a run to the WCF again.
Why can't they emulate their same success? You have yet to provide a single piece of evidence. You act as if the proof is my burden, but shouldn't it be yours? The Rockets just proved they could win 56 games and go to the Western Conference Finals with Dwight, Motiejunas, Beverley and Jones (four of their best eight players) missing a combined 127 games last season, not to mention with Beverley and D-Mo missing the entire playoffs.

Assuming that the Rockets stay even remotely healthy this year and they see a modest improvement from their young players (of which there are many), why shouldn't the Rockets be able to win 56 games? Let's see your reasoning.


I could easily accuse you of the same exact thing boss. And I believe you were the one who came in with a crying hissyfit over my post and not vice versa. So if you don't want me to respond, keep the crybaby fanboy **** to yourself.
If you don't want me to respond to your ****** excuse for an argument, have a competent basketball take. You're in the minority on this debate, friend. Not me. Feel free to look up any decent NBA media analyst and his/her take on the Lawson acquisition. I assure you there will be far more in my corner than in yours. Or you can just look through this thread. :shrug:


I dealt with the crux of your argument I don't need to address every half assed point you try to make. Your oversimplified arguments of "we upgraded our position of need" and "we won't be as injured" ignore too many dynamics of the game in a way I've seen too many times backfire.
Here we go again. You keep suggesting that this will fail miserably, but you have yet to provide a SINGLE instance that backs up your debate. I've provided plenty of instances of successful offenses with two ball dominant wings or guards. You have yet to provide a single instance of a team with two ball dominant wings or guards that failed miserably just because of the fit on the court. Just give me a couple of decent examples, and I'll buy that your argument has some merit.

The thing that frustrates me the most about your argument is that you're completely ignoring the fact that Harden played off the ball next to two ball dominant players for a team that went to an NBA Finals. Why is it so ridiculous to believe he couldn't play off the ball more next to Lawson? That's the whole reason the Rockets went out and get Lawson in the first place!

astrosmaniac
07-27-2015, 09:19 PM
I would say Spurs, Dubs, Cavs, with Grizz sitting right on the outside looking in. Houston was not remotely close to capable of hanging with the Dubs and it showed.

no one was. By that standard, the only real contenders were GS and if that is what you said, i'd respect it. But it's not. No one was handling the warrior last year, they were just that good. Plus the Rockets were missing 2 starters in the playoffs and still made the WCF. What team in the west if you take out 2 starters makes it to the conference finals? GS?

alexander_37
07-27-2015, 09:23 PM
Rockets were clicking and playing great ball to finish the season with those guys. Terry and Priggi aren't sustainable as your full time starters I understand that. But there is a very good chance the team doesn't click around Lawson, another ball dominant over dribbling iso player with no D than it did around savvy veteran ball movers and catch and shooters, the same way it clicked to end last season and into the 3rd round of the playoffs.

Why do you keep brining up Beverly like he is the guy I brought up or something? He is a great fit, if he plays more than Lawson and finishes games like I suspect him too they will be better off. If Lawson is the guy they brought to run the second unit when Harden is off the court and they limit their time together during crucial stretches of games they will be better off. You don't want to build a team where you don't want two of your best players not being ideal to play with each other though - you don't want to build a team where two of your best players are redundant in every area and both huge minuses defensively. When you have to hide two of your best players from each other, that usually won't bring you a championship.

Lawson is the furthest thing from Harden's ideal PG you could possibly imagine. At least nobody even bothers to deny that.

You keep bringing up how much better the Dubs are. Their best player is a PG. Who was missing all series oh IDK Houston's best defensive guard and starting PG.

Curry had 2 slow over the hill players guarding him all season and you act like Lawson and Beverley don't make a difference.

I could drop 20 on Terry and I haven't picks up a basketball in over 5 years.

The fact that you try to argue the Rockets didn't just get marginally better is hilarious. Filling your biggest weakness with a guy who was a shade under a 20/10 player and an all defensive NBA guard is laughable.

Scoots
07-27-2015, 10:20 PM
You keep bringing up how much better the Dubs are. Their best player is a PG. Who was missing all series oh IDK Houston's best defensive guard and starting PG.

To be fair, even when Bev played in the regular season games the Warriors won.


Curry had 2 slow over the hill players guarding him all season and you act like Lawson and Beverley don't make a difference.

I really don't understand how ANYONE can think that Lawson isn't an upgrade over Prigioni, and everything after that doesn't matter. Hell, even if Lawson gets suspended by the NBA for a year he's better than Prigioni because Prigioni was one his way to retirement and Lawson would still be working to come back :)


I could drop 20 on Terry and I haven't picks up a basketball in over 5 years. No. Resist the temptation to ever say you can go off on ANY current NBA player unless you are yourself a current or recently former player of significant repute. Terry's D is bad when compared to NBA guards, but most top college guards would struggle to put 20 up against an NBA defense with Terry at the point. Just don't say it, it doesn't help your position.


The fact that you try to argue the Rockets didn't just get marginally better is hilarious. Filling your biggest weakness with a guy who was a shade under a 20/10 player and an all defensive NBA guard is laughable.

TOTALLY agree. I just don't get the lack of understand of people. Nobody reasonable is saying Lawson is going to be all-nba next year ... but it's beyond reasonable to think he's a major upgrade over the last guard on the bench last year. Some people just want to argue regardless of reason.

alexander_37
07-27-2015, 10:22 PM
To be fair, even when Bev played in the regular season games the Warriors won.



I really don't understand how ANYONE can think that Lawson isn't an upgrade over Prigioni, and everything after that doesn't matter. Hell, even if Lawson gets suspended by the NBA for a year he's better than Prigioni because Prigioni was one his way to retirement and Lawson would still be working to come back :)

No. Resist the temptation to ever say you can go off on ANY current NBA player unless you are yourself a current or recently former player of significant repute. Terry's D is bad when compared to NBA guards, but most top college guards would struggle to put 20 up against an NBA defense with Terry at the point. Just don't say it, it doesn't help your position.



TOTALLY agree. I just don't get the lack of understand of people. Nobody reasonable is saying Lawson is going to be all-nba next year ... but it's beyond reasonable to think he's a major upgrade over the last guard on the bench last year. Some people just want to argue regardless of reason.

IIRC correctly Howard and Jones were out for most of the reg season games if not all 3.

I was clearly exagerating I was a mediocre ball player AT BEST.

Scoots
07-27-2015, 10:38 PM
IIRC correctly Howard and Jones were out for most of the reg season games if not all 3.

I was clearly exagerating I was a mediocre ball player AT BEST.

4 regular season games ... I can't remember who missed what, but your point was Beverley vs Curry (not that that's what determined the games) so that's what I was talking about.

Understood on the hyperbole, that sort of exaggeration is a pet peeve of mine. :)

alexander_37
07-27-2015, 10:40 PM
4 regular season games ... I can't remember who missed what, but your point was Beverley vs Curry (not that that's what determined the games) so that's what I was talking about.

Understood on the hyperbole, that sort of exaggeration is a pet peeve of mine. :)

When you are missing your star C, defensive anchor, and 2nd best player.....

Again that doesn't mean they win but you can't say they wouldn't have.

tredigs
07-28-2015, 01:06 AM
When you are missing your star C, defensive anchor, and 2nd best player.....

Again that doesn't mean they win but you can't say they wouldn't have.

You had Bevery/Harden/Smoove/Howard for 2 of 'em. No T Jones tho'. Your team was never that healthy. They lost by an average of ~20. I'm gonna guess the Warriors still win.

D-Leethal
07-28-2015, 09:32 AM
No. I didn't. I added SF to the conversation because position matters far, far less in today's NBA than it did 20 years ago. A SF in today's NBA could play the same role offensively as a PG or a PF. The position is irrelevent. The question isn't whether a team has two ball handling, ball dominant GUARDS in the starting five, it's whether a team has two ball handling, ball dominant PLAYERS in the starting five.


Why can't Harden and Lawson compliment each other? Harden was at his most efficient playing more off the ball next to Westbrook or Durant. And Lawson had his two best three-point shooting seasons by a mile playing more off the ball in the same offense as Melo. I completely fail to see why these guys can't compliment each other. There's nothing wrong with having two guys who can penetrate, dish, shoot and/or score in the same back court. If anything, that versatility should be a strength, but for some reason you're treating it as a weakness.


Why do they have to occupy the same space on the floor? Do me a favor and watch ANY Rockets or Nuggets game from last season and count the number of possessions that Harden or Lawson were on the floor and the possession didn't start with the ball in their hands at the top of the key. It was more than zero, wasn't it? That's because a ball handler doesn't have to start the possession with the ball in his hands to be effective, chief. Offenses don't work that way.


Okay.... And why can't Houston do the same thing and split up Harden and Lawson's minutes so they're paired with a solid defender for most of the game? I don't understand why this concept is so hard for you to grasp. Are you really that dense or has years of watching mediocre basketball in New York confused you as to how the game is played and how rotations work?


So you JUST explained how the problem could be fixed, yet you act as if this is some huge monumental issue that is totally unfixable. If you, of all people, can understand how a back court rotation works, I'm pretty sure an NBA coaching staff can as well. ;)


Why can't they emulate their same success? You have yet to provide a single piece of evidence. You act as if the proof is my burden, but shouldn't it be yours? The Rockets just proved they could win 56 games and go to the Western Conference Finals with Dwight, Motiejunas, Beverley and Jones (four of their best eight players) missing a combined 127 games last season, not to mention with Beverley and D-Mo missing the entire playoffs.

Assuming that the Rockets stay even remotely healthy this year and they see a modest improvement from their young players (of which there are many), why shouldn't the Rockets be able to win 56 games? Let's see your reasoning.


If you don't want me to respond to your ****** excuse for an argument, have a competent basketball take. You're in the minority on this debate, friend. Not me. Feel free to look up any decent NBA media analyst and his/her take on the Lawson acquisition. I assure you there will be far more in my corner than in yours. Or you can just look through this thread. :shrug:


Here we go again. You keep suggesting that this will fail miserably, but you have yet to provide a SINGLE instance that backs up your debate. I've provided plenty of instances of successful offenses with two ball dominant wings or guards. You have yet to provide a single instance of a team with two ball dominant wings or guards that failed miserably just because of the fit on the court. Just give me a couple of decent examples, and I'll buy that your argument has some merit.

The thing that frustrates me the most about your argument is that you're completely ignoring the fact that Harden played off the ball next to two ball dominant players for a team that went to an NBA Finals. Why is it so ridiculous to believe he couldn't play off the ball more next to Lawson? That's the whole reason the Rockets went out and get Lawson in the first place!

I don't expect a bunch of Rockets homers to agree with me. And I am supposed to care what ESPN analysts think or something? I was making these same arguments to explain why the Nets after trading for Pierce and Garnett would be WORSE, nobody here agreed with me then either, and ESPN was calling them title contenders. Are you really trying to argue that media analysts and PSD are a barometer for good judgement? Time will tell, if Beverly isn't starting, finishing, and playing the crucial stretches Rockets will not be a better squad than they were last year.

Not really sure what type of "evidence" you want me to provide, I gave you my reasoning, you are choosing to ignore it and than telling me I refuse to provide any evidence. You have done none to the contrary either my friend, at this point there is no real "evidence", just a homer being a homer and a "hater" being a "hater" predicting how a team that hasn't stepped on the floor yet will play next year. To me, you really come off as a crybaby that can't handle when people don't prop up the Rox, whether its coming to the defense of Harden's rampant flopping or whining when people don't respect the Rox as a title contender, Might Might Bosstones always tries to sweep for the rescue with a 10-quote book of a post full of nothing.

valade16
07-28-2015, 09:45 AM
no one was. By that standard, the only real contenders were GS and if that is what you said, i'd respect it. But it's not. No one was handling the warrior last year, they were just that good. Plus the Rockets were missing 2 starters in the playoffs and still made the WCF. What team in the west if you take out 2 starters makes it to the conference finals? GS?

The Cavs lost 2 of their 3 best players and still took the Warriors to 6 games...

EDUTEXANS
07-28-2015, 11:34 AM
I don't expect a bunch of Rockets homers to agree with me. And I am supposed to care what ESPN analysts think or something? I was making these same arguments to explain why the Nets after trading for Pierce and Garnett would be WORSE, nobody here agreed with me then either, and ESPN was calling them title contenders. Are you really trying to argue that media analysts and PSD are a barometer for good judgement? Time will tell, if Beverly isn't starting, finishing, and playing the crucial stretches Rockets will not be a better squad than they were last year.

Not really sure what type of "evidence" you want me to provide, I gave you my reasoning, you are choosing to ignore it and than telling me I refuse to provide any evidence. You have done none to the contrary either my friend, at this point there is no real "evidence", just a homer being a homer and a "hater" being a "hater" predicting how a team that hasn't stepped on the floor yet will play next year. To me, you really come off as a crybaby that can't handle when people don't prop up the Rox, whether its coming to the defense of Harden's rampant flopping or whining when people don't respect the Rox as a title contender, Might Might Bosstones always tries to sweep for the rescue with a 10-quote book of a post full of nothing.

And you just ignored all 10 responses, that actually had good points, in order to say a lot of non-basketball stuff.

You just doesn't even make sense anymore. I mean, I know it's been tough for you to watch basketball lately, but you're being unreasonable.

I get what you said about fit, and I completely agree with it. That's why I said a thousand times I didn't want Rondo anywhere near Houston (although that's technically a lie, I very much loved watching him in Dallas). But Rondo and Lawson are very, very different players. Sure Lawson can't defend, but so didn't Terry and Prigioni, and the Rockets still ran a pretty great defensive system and they still played good defensive basketball in the Playoffs. And that's why they re-signed Beverley, who missed the entire postseason.

Harden thrived behind two of the most ball dominant players in the league in OKC and Lawson was really effective and a 40% 3-point shooter playing with Anthony. But again, that's not even the reason why the Rockets traded for him, it's actually because Lawson thrives with the ball in his hands, creating plays. Because that's what the Rockets clearly lacked last season.

I really can't understand your reasoning. The Rockets have three ELITE defenders on the roster, plus a bunch of competent others. Even Harden should play better defense if he can't breath a little more on offense. Both players can't shoot at a respectable level, and they also have two pretty good 3-point shooting forwards playing next to them to space the floor.

So, why can't Harden and Lawson co-exist?

And to be honest, about the contender argument. I never really felt like the Rockets were contenders last year. I always tought they were one piece away. But they really surprised and managed to get to the WCF, wothout tow starters. Face it, whether you guys like him or not, Harden has become one of the top players in the league and he is capable of carrying this team. Add a healthy Howard, even though his decline is obvious, Motiejunas, Beverley and Lawson, plus one of the deepest benches in the league and one year together, and I'm ready to call them real contenders.

EDUTEXANS
07-28-2015, 11:38 AM
And seriously, who can really create as well as Lawson, shoot the ball better and play good defense? Curry? Paul?

Scoots
07-28-2015, 03:58 PM
The Cavs lost 2 of their 3 best players and still took the Warriors to 6 games...

Another way to look at is that they managed to win half the number of games they needed to win to take home the title :) Taking a team to 6 games in the finals is not that great an achievement ... it's expected that the finals should not be a sweep so really it's just 1 win more than the bare minimum (sorry 2007 Cavs fans).

Back on topic ... D-leethal does have a point, we don't know how Lawson and Harden and Beverley will co-exist ... but that's about as far as it can reasonably go. There is no reason to think the Rockets will be worse next year because they acquired Lawson.

valade16
07-28-2015, 04:11 PM
Another way to look at is that they managed to win half the number of games they needed to win to take home the title :) Taking a team to 6 games in the finals is not that great an achievement ... it's expected that the finals should not be a sweep so really it's just 1 win more than the bare minimum (sorry 2007 Cavs fans).

Back on topic ... D-leethal does have a point, we don't know how Lawson and Harden and Beverley will co-exist ... but that's about as far as it can reasonably go. There is no reason to think the Rockets will be worse next year because they acquired Lawson.

It is when you're 2nd and 3rd best players, both of who are All-NBA caliber players, are out for the series (or in Kyrie's case, 95% of the series).

Since when did losing your 2nd and 3rd player become irrelevant? Is it because of LeBron James? I honestly want to know when the 2nd and 3rd best players on a team became essentially, as important to a team's ability to win as their 11th and 12th best players?

Can anybody name another team in the league that reasonably would have gone 2-4 against the Warriors without their 2nd and 3rd best players?

valade16
07-28-2015, 04:21 PM
And seriously, who can really create as well as Lawson, shoot the ball better and play good defense? Curry? Paul?

I see what you're saying, but you basically highlight his 2 good attributes and ask people to do them at his level and play better than his bad attribute. Of course it's going to be a select list, but I'm sure people would trade a little less creating and a little less shooting for vastly better defense.

Or put the question another way:

And seriously, who can really create and as well as Rubio, play defense as well as Rubio, and shoot the ball better?

Just because Rubio is really good at 2/3 of those things doesn't mean he's a great PG. But I see what you're saying.

D-Leethal
07-28-2015, 04:52 PM
I'm not gonna sit here and take hours out of my day to break down each segment of each post from the Rockets fan crybaby brigade so we can each continue to make our same points back and forth (no, you guys didn't do much of anything to change my opinion).

I am giving kudos to the Rockets season last year, despite their injuries and all they finished on a major tear, got themselves the 2 seed in a ridiculously stacked West and made the WCF. Why should I think they should automatically match that and more just because Beverly is back and you added a guy who is going to make your backcourt the worst in the league defensively whenever he plays with Harden?

In 2014 the Rockets had a healthy Beverly, healthy Parsons and got smoked in the first round by a team who got embarrassed in the first round last year.....while Rockets rolled to the WCF without Parsons, Beverly and two ancient guys starting at PG.

Now by your logic that paradox of results should not be humanly possible in the realm of NBA basketball. Was it something out of the twilight zone? How about the Spurs just getting bounced in round 1 by the Clips? Rockets finished the season playing the best ball of the year and rode it to the WCF, what if they play their best ball in January this time and can't get it together when its time for the big boys? Lawson guarantees that will happen or something? Gimme a break. Rockets had it "click" at the right time despite their injuries and it's not a guarantee that will happen again just because they will conceivably be healthier.

Rockets are not THAT good to shoe them in to the WCF again. To be honest, nobody is out West. The competition is too good.

alexander_37
07-28-2015, 04:57 PM
I'm not gonna sit here and take hours out of my day to break down each segment of each post from the Rockets fan crybaby brigade.

I am giving kudos to the Rockets season last year, despite their injuries and all they finished on a major tear, got themselves the 2 seed in a ridiculously stacked West and made the WCF. Why should I think they should automatically match that and more just because Beverly is back and you added a guy who is going to make your backcourt the worst in the league defensively whenever he plays with Harden?

In 2014 the Rockets had a healthy Beverly, healthy Parsons and got smoked in the first round by a team who got embarrassed in the first round last year.....while Rockets rolled to the WCF without Parsons, Beverly and two ancient guys starting at PG.

Now by your logic that paradox of results should not be humanly possible in the realm of NBA basketball. Was it something out of the twilight zone? How about the Spurs just getting bounced in round 1 by the Clips? Rockets finished the season playing the best ball of the year and rode it to the WCF, what if they play their best ball in January this time and can't get it together when its time for the big boys? Lawson guarantees that will happen or something? Gimme a break. Rockets had it "click" at the right time despite their injuries and it's not a guarantee that will happen again just because they will conceivably be healthier.

Rockets are not THAT good to shoe them in to the WCF again. To be honest, nobody is out West. The competition is too good.

Let's ignore the fact that Dwight was in his first season with a new team and almost every game with portland went to overtime and both sides got lucky on more than one occasion. Oh and LMA and Lopez fouled Howard every play with a no call. I seriously counted 30 times he got hacked or had 2 guys hanging on his back as he went for boards.

D-Leethal
07-28-2015, 05:00 PM
Let's ignore the fact that Dwight was in his first season with a new team and almost every game with portland went to overtime and both sides got lucky on more than one occasion. Oh and LMA and Lopez fouled Howard every play with a no call. I seriously counted 30 times he got hacked or had 2 guys hanging on his back as he went for boards.

But Lawson will come in, as a point guard fresh out of rehab, with little to no playoff success in the past, in his first season with his new team and bring you guys to 60+ wins and the Finals?

I am not even going to dignify the rest of that crap with a response.

alexander_37
07-28-2015, 05:05 PM
But Lawson will come in, as a point guard fresh out of rehab, with little to no playoff success in the past, in his first season with his new team and bring you guys to 60+ wins and the Finals?

I am not even going to dignify the rest of that crap with a response.

No you just don't have one because YOU ARE ARGUING HE IS WORSE THAN PABLO ****ING PRIGGIONI A ****ING THIRTY EIGHT YEAR OLD WHO AVERAGED THREE POINTS PER GAME ON THRITY FOUR % SHOOTING

His field goal percentage is lower than his goddamn age.

alexander_37
07-28-2015, 05:07 PM
To be fair he averaged 3.1 ppg during the playoffs..... on 33% shooting.

Saddletramp
07-28-2015, 06:03 PM
D-Lethal is just cherry picking points and ignoring others now. Don't bother.

mightybosstone
07-28-2015, 06:40 PM
I don't expect a bunch of Rockets homers to agree with me. And I am supposed to care what ESPN analysts think or something? I was making these same arguments to explain why the Nets after trading for Pierce and Garnett would be WORSE, nobody here agreed with me then either, and ESPN was calling them title contenders. Are you really trying to argue that media analysts and PSD are a barometer for good judgement?
I'm not saying the Rockets are going to win the NBA championship. Nor am I saying it's a guarantee they win more basketball games. But I'm saying the odds point pretty heavily in the Rockets favor and history favors them by a pretty wide margin. Teams with young talent that are healthier the following season and add a quality player at a position of need are generally going to be better basketball teams. Hence why it's not my burden to prove to you why they'll be every bit as good, if not better, than last season.

Also, the Nets are a horrible example. Pierce and Garnett were well passed their primes and joined another post-prime star in Williams in Brooklyn.


Time will tell, if Beverly isn't starting, finishing, and playing the crucial stretches Rockets will not be a better squad than they were last year.
The bolded is absolutely true. And if that's all you wanted to say, I'd stop arguing right now. But you continue to argue in favor of something while providing no evidence to back up your point and ignoring mine.


Not really sure what type of "evidence" you want me to provide, I gave you my reasoning, you are choosing to ignore it and than telling me I refuse to provide any evidence.
You're suggesting they'll fail just because a player they picked up will take away from Harden's game offensively.
I've actually asked you SEVERAL times now for an example of two ball dominant guards or wings playing at their peak who failed miserably because they were bad fits next to each other. All I've asked is for a couple of examples, and you've completely failed to provide them. Until you do so, your argument holds no weight whatsoever.


You have done none to the contrary either my friend, at this point there is no real "evidence", just a homer being a homer and a "hater" being a "hater" predicting how a team that hasn't stepped on the floor yet will play next year.
What do you call that entire post I wrote that you completely ignored? You claimed two ball dominant ball handlers couldn't thrive together in the same starting five. I gave you multiple examples of all-time greats paired together, and you chose to ignore it. You suggested that Harden and Lawson couldn't play together because they're not capable of playing off the ball, but I brought up relevant points about Harden's freakish efficiency on a championship caliber team in OKC and Lawson's 40%+ 3-point shooting next to Melo. You chose to ignore that.
And your entire point is based on the idea that Harden and Lawson will play the majority of minutes next to each other, but you yourself countered your own point (which I agree with) that Beverley will get plenty of minutes in the rotation and will likely play a lot of time next to both guys.

I don't know how else to counter this anymore than I already have. I've essentially countered every single one of your points multiple times, but you refuse to counter mine. What other points would you like me to make? And what do I have to do to get you to actually respond to my questions in return? This isn't debate. It's me talking to a wall. :shrug:


To me, you really come off as a crybaby that can't handle when people don't prop up the Rox, whether its coming to the defense of Harden's rampant flopping or whining when people don't respect the Rox as a title contender, Might Might Bosstones always tries to sweep for the rescue with a 10-quote book of a post full of nothing.
I'm more than fine with some constructive criticism or a little negativity. But I'm not just going to let someone say something negative about my favorite teams without countering those points if I disagree with them. I didn't come to PSD in the first place to agree with everybody. I came to debate sports. That's what I'm doing. I'm convinced you don't like my responses because you have no clue how to break up a simple quote and address each of my points individually. It's either that, you're lazy or your incompetent. Or it's quite possible that it's all three combined.

But as I've said previously, I'm not looking at this thing with homer goggles. I'm looking at it as objectively as I can. Lawson is not an ideal fit next to Harden. I can recognize that. But he's not the atrocious fit that you're describing either. History has shown us on dozens of occasions that two ball handlers in the same offense is a good thing. And both guys have shown an ability to play off the ball when required and have performed well when asked to do so. Will defense be a problem? Maybe, but the Rockets have two of the top defenders at their respective positions in Ariza and Dwight in addition to a ton of other quality perimeter defenders off the bench.

So there you go. If you don't want to put on the big boy shorts and debate my points, that's fine. But please stop countering with the same tired, generalized points while refusing to acknowledge any of the things I say.

mightybosstone
07-28-2015, 07:03 PM
I'm not gonna sit here and take hours out of my day to break down each segment of each post from the Rockets fan crybaby brigade so we can each continue to make our same points back and forth (no, you guys didn't do much of anything to change my opinion).
If it takes you hours, then you're not very sharp. It takes me about 20 minutes to make each of those posts. But a competent argument in any debate shouldn't take you 30 seconds. If you don't want to have an adult debate, then stay in the kiddie pool. :shrug:


I am giving kudos to the Rockets season last year, despite their injuries and all they finished on a major tear, got themselves the 2 seed in a ridiculously stacked West and made the WCF. Why should I think they should automatically match that and more just because Beverly is back and you added a guy who is going to make your backcourt the worst in the league defensively whenever he plays with Harden?
Except the Rockets didn't "finish on a major tear." They were 36-17 pre-All Star break for a 67.9% winning percentage. They went 20-9 post All-Star break for a 68.9% winning percentage. They were essentially just as good of a team in the first half of the season as they were the second half. And they were 7-3 in their last 10 for essentially the same exact winning percentage. This wasn't just the case of some team that got hot at the right time and got lucky in the postseason.


In 2014 the Rockets had a healthy Beverly, healthy Parsons and got smoked in the first round by a team who got embarrassed in the first round last year.....while Rockets rolled to the WCF without Parsons, Beverly and two ancient guys starting at PG.

Now by your logic that paradox of results should not be humanly possible in the realm of NBA basketball. Was it something out of the twilight zone?
You're ignoring so many things here. First, Portland's postseason performance last season was totally irrelevant as they were without Matthews, who was easily their third best player. Also, did you actually look at the roster differences between those two teams? They were pretty significantly different. And Harden was clearly much, much better last season than he was his previous two seasons and postseason with Houston.



How about the Spurs just getting bounced in round 1 by the Clips? Rockets finished the season playing the best ball of the year and rode it to the WCF, what if they play their best ball in January this time and can't get it together when its time for the big boys? Lawson guarantees that will happen or something? Gimme a break. Rockets had it "click" at the right time despite their injuries and it's not a guarantee that will happen again just because they will conceivably be healthier.
1. Because the Clippers were a great team last year, and the Spurs were not as good as they'd been previously? Also because the because the Spurs are aging. That's not a difficult result to predict. I predicted the Clippers would win that series before it ever began.
2. I addressed this idea that the Rockets were just "hot at the right time." It's just wrong.
3. Nobody is guaranteeing that anything with Lawson will happen. We're saying there's more reasons to suggest they will be a better basketball team than reasons to believe they'll be worse. You seem to be the one guaranteeing something.


Rockets are not THAT good to shoe them in to the WCF again. To be honest, nobody is out West. The competition is too good.
Who said they were? I dare you to find a single post in here from a Rockets fan or anyone else that suggests the Rockets are a lock to make the Western Conference Finals. Literally nobody has said that.

But Lawson will come in, as a point guard fresh out of rehab, with little to no playoff success in the past, in his first season with his new team and bring you guys to 60+ wins and the Finals?

Playoff success is determined by your team, not your individual production. But Lawson's postseason numbers in 24 career playoff games have actually been pretty darn good. His career postseason PER of 20.0 and WS/48 of .150 WS/48 are actually above his regular season averages. And he averaged around 20/7/3/1 on decent scoring efficiency in his last two postseasons.

Also, 60+ wins is not an unreasonable number. The Rockets game four wins shy of that and were missing their second best player for half of the season. I don't know how realistic the Finals is, but it's not out of the question either. I don't know that there's a team right now that is head and shoulders better than they are even if I'd still probably rank Golden State and San Antonio as slightly better.

Byronicle
07-28-2015, 07:15 PM
I don't even like Harden, but anyone hating on this trade are just haters. They got him for basically nothing.

Regardless whether he starts or not, he is going to be another offensive weapon.

Houston has enough quality defenders on the perimeter and the paint to compensate. Ariza, Brewer, and Beverly are all good defenders around the arc and then you have Howard, Jones and Montieujunas protecting the rim.

It was pretty clear they needed more scoring and ball movement. They were relying almost entirely on Harden and now that responsibility can be relieved with the arrival of Lawson.

If Josh Smith can come off the bench, so could Lawson.

EDUTEXANS
07-28-2015, 07:55 PM
I see what you're saying, but you basically highlight his 2 good attributes and ask people to do them at his level and play better than his bad attribute. Of course it's going to be a select list, but I'm sure people would trade a little less creating and a little less shooting for vastly better defense.

Or put the question another way:

And seriously, who can really create and as well as Rubio, play defense as well as Rubio, and shoot the ball better?

Just because Rubio is really good at 2/3 of those things doesn't mean he's a great PG. But I see what you're saying.

Oh sure, but playmaking is what we actually need the most. And average three-point shooting, at least.

And I wouldn't trade a little of his playmaking and shooting for better defense, because that shouldn't be an issue with guys like Ariza, Beverley, McDaniels and Brewer in the perimiter.

There are very few point guards in the league who can create, shoot the 3 and play defense all at a great level. Possibly none the Rockets could have got right now, instead of Lawson. So, you take what you need the most. I thought Lowry could be an option, but that ship sailed the minute they signed Carroll. Other options were Collison, Jarrett Jack and Jamal Crawford.


I'm not gonna sit here and take hours out of my day to break down each segment of each post from the Rockets fan crybaby brigade so we can each continue to make our same points back and forth (no, you guys didn't do much of anything to change my opinion).

I am giving kudos to the Rockets season last year, despite their injuries and all they finished on a major tear, got themselves the 2 seed in a ridiculously stacked West and made the WCF. Why should I think they should automatically match that and more just because Beverly is back and you added a guy who is going to make your backcourt the worst in the league defensively whenever he plays with Harden?

In 2014 the Rockets had a healthy Beverly, healthy Parsons and got smoked in the first round by a team who got embarrassed in the first round last year.....while Rockets rolled to the WCF without Parsons, Beverly and two ancient guys starting at PG.

Now by your logic that paradox of results should not be humanly possible in the realm of NBA basketball. Was it something out of the twilight zone? How about the Spurs just getting bounced in round 1 by the Clips? Rockets finished the season playing the best ball of the year and rode it to the WCF, what if they play their best ball in January this time and can't get it together when its time for the big boys? Lawson guarantees that will happen or something? Gimme a break. Rockets had it "click" at the right time despite their injuries and it's not a guarantee that will happen again just because they will conceivably be healthier.

Rockets are not THAT good to shoe them in to the WCF again. To be honest, nobody is out West. The competition is too good.

So, you ignore everyone's arguments, which include a bunch of non-Rocket fans, and you same others keep making the same points.

Your entire post is a contradiction of everything you have said. You mentioned fit a million times, but you completely ignore the addition of Ariza, as he's clearly a less talented, yet better fit player.

And no, Lawson doesn't guarantee anything, and I haven't seen anyone stating that, yet you keep saying the Rockets will be worse with him. And if no one is guaranteed to make the WCF, there are a few teams, probably five, that are strong contenders to get there.

The Rockets needed playmaking. They got it. Unless Lawson plays the exact opposite he has played in his entire career, they will be better. And even if doesn't play at all, they should be better with abother year of experience and two starters back.

Let it go, bro. No one seems to agree with you. And this time you're not arguing some 35-year old guys won't make a team better.

D-Leethal
07-28-2015, 09:44 PM
No you just don't have one because YOU ARE ARGUING HE IS WORSE THAN PABLO ****ING PRIGGIONI A ****ING THIRTY EIGHT YEAR OLD WHO AVERAGED THREE POINTS PER GAME ON THRITY FOUR % SHOOTING

His field goal percentage is lower than his goddamn age.

It's clear who rides the short bus to the Rockets forum.

Never once did I argue Prigs or Terry were better than Lawson.

alexander_37
07-28-2015, 09:49 PM
It's clear who rides the short bus to the Rockets forum.

Never once did I argue Prigs or Terry were better than Lawson.

Yes you literally have been saying this whole thread how it wont make them better.....

D-Leethal
07-28-2015, 09:57 PM
Oh sure, but playmaking is what we actually need the most. And average three-point shooting, at least.

And I wouldn't trade a little of his playmaking and shooting for better defense, because that shouldn't be an issue with guys like Ariza, Beverley, McDaniels and Brewer in the perimiter.

There are very few point guards in the league who can create, shoot the 3 and play defense all at a great level. Possibly none the Rockets could have got right now, instead of Lawson. So, you take what you need the most. I thought Lowry could be an option, but that ship sailed the minute they signed Carroll. Other options were Collison, Jarrett Jack and Jamal Crawford.



So, you ignore everyone's arguments, which include a bunch of non-Rocket fans, and you same others keep making the same points.

Your entire post is a contradiction of everything you have said. You mentioned fit a million times, but you completely ignore the addition of Ariza, as he's clearly a less talented, yet better fit player.

And no, Lawson doesn't guarantee anything, and I haven't seen anyone stating that, yet you keep saying the Rockets will be worse with him. And if no one is guaranteed to make the WCF, there are a few teams, probably five, that are strong contenders to get there.

The Rockets needed playmaking. They got it. Unless Lawson plays the exact opposite he has played in his entire career, they will be better. And even if doesn't play at all, they should be better with abother year of experience and two starters back.

Let it go, bro. No one seems to agree with you. And this time you're not arguing some 35-year old guys won't make a team better.

I am not ignoring fit at all, if anything that is precisely what I am saying. Rockets downgraded significantly in the talent department, got ravaged with injuries, yet had a great playoff run. The year before they had far more talent and lost to a brand new Portland team who was in the playoffs for the first time since Brandon Roy. That is precisely my point. Why am I supposed to be sold the Rockets have another WCF run in them? How many teams repeat that feat in the West?

You guys are acting like I said Rockets are not going to make the playoffs or get significantly worse or something. My argument this whole freakin' time back to my first couple of posts in this thread was that I do not think they top last years performance. They had far more talent the year before with far less injuries and didn't top last years performance. I do not think they get as high as the 2 seed again. I do not think they are lucky enough to play a Mavs team spiraling out of control and the Paper Clips in rounds 1 and 2 again. I think teams expose Lawson and Harden defensively in a 7 game series. I do not think Lawson is anywhere near a prime fit with Harden. I think they have some growing pains trying to learn to play together and finish games together. I do not think any of those are outrageous claims to make.

I fail to see one of the beautiful "points" anyone is making to tell me Rockets are a shoe in to be better than last year. More talented? Yes, that doesn't mean jack, as we've seen first hand with your own squad last year, which is why I brought it up.

My argument - I do not think Rockets end up better than they were last year, I do not think they win 56 games, get the 2 seed, or make the WCF. Nobody has given me any reason to believe the contrary.

What are these awesome points you guys are making that I'm missing? They will be healthier? (they did better the year they were injured), have more talent at PG? (they did better with the grandfathers). Unless you guys are guaranteeing more success and a deeper playoff run than last year, I'm not even sure why you are arguing.

D-Leethal
07-28-2015, 10:01 PM
Yes you literally have been saying this whole thread how it wont make them better.....

If you are incapable of seeing the difference in those two things than please don't even bother responding anymore. Let the adults talk please.

D-Leethal
07-28-2015, 10:03 PM
I don't even like Harden, but anyone hating on this trade are just haters. They got him for basically nothing.

Regardless whether he starts or not, he is going to be another offensive weapon.

Houston has enough quality defenders on the perimeter and the paint to compensate. Ariza, Brewer, and Beverly are all good defenders around the arc and then you have Howard, Jones and Montieujunas protecting the rim.

It was pretty clear they needed more scoring and ball movement. They were relying almost entirely on Harden and now that responsibility can be relieved with the arrival of Lawson.

If Josh Smith can come off the bench, so could Lawson.

If they use him in a watered down, 6th man type of role with Beverly playing the crucial stretches and finishing games it will work much better. I've conceded that about 10 times in this thread.

alexander_37
07-28-2015, 10:13 PM
If you are incapable of seeing the difference in those two things than please don't even bother responding anymore. Let the adults talk please.

You literally tried to argue an almost 20/10 player could make a team worse than a 34% shooting 3 ppg player.

Child please

D-Leethal
07-28-2015, 10:14 PM
Not sure they have a better year than they did last year with this move. Lawson and Harden will be the worst defensive back court in the league and I struggle how they will both thrive at their highest levels together on the court. Both are ball dominant, undersized and like to play off the bounce from the same spots on the floor.


Upgrading in talent doesn't guarantee upgrade in W-L column.

My first two posts in this thread. "Not sure" they have a better year, upgrading in talent "doesn't always" upgrade in the W-L column. I think I've given more than enough evidence to suffice such bold, disrespectful claims.

Gimme a break fellas, you guys really take after your whiney, crybaby squad on this forum. Not everyone is sold on the Rockets because they added DUI Lawson. Get over it.

D-Leethal
07-28-2015, 10:15 PM
You literally tried to argue an almost 20/10 player could make a team worse than a 34% shooting 3 ppg player.

Child please

Wouldn't be the first nor the last time. Sounds like you're guaranteeing Rox top last years W-L, seeding and playoff run?

alexander_37
07-28-2015, 10:44 PM
Wouldn't be the first nor the last time. Sounds like you're guaranteeing Rox top last years W-L, seeding and playoff run?

In the west lol.

They may not win more games but it wont be because they are missing pablo....

Scoots
07-28-2015, 11:13 PM
I don't expect a bunch of Rockets homers to agree with me.

I'm a Warriors fan, can't stand Harden's game, think Howard is a whiny punk, Ariza is overrated, Morey is a self-promoting ***, and I can STILL tell you you are wrong. Lawson is absolutely an upgrade to the Rockets roster and yet another (annoyingly) good move by Morey.

Scoots
07-28-2015, 11:16 PM
In the west lol.

They may not win more games but it wont be because they are missing pablo....

He is ignoring that people are saying Lawson over Pablo is an upgrade because he has no response for it. There is no point trying to get through his thick head ... but it's not like he has much to cheer with his own team (he probably wanted Lawson for the Knicks) so he's hanging out here.

EDUTEXANS
07-28-2015, 11:50 PM
I am not ignoring fit at all, if anything that is precisely what I am saying. Rockets downgraded significantly in the talent department, got ravaged with injuries, yet had a great playoff run. The year before they had far more talent and lost to a brand new Portland team who was in the playoffs for the first time since Brandon Roy. That is precisely my point. Why am I supposed to be sold the Rockets have another WCF run in them? How many teams repeat that feat in the West?

You guys are acting like I said Rockets are not going to make the playoffs or get significantly worse or something. My argument this whole freakin' time back to my first couple of posts in this thread was that I do not think they top last years performance. They had far more talent the year before with far less injuries and didn't top last years performance. I do not think they get as high as the 2 seed again. I do not think they are lucky enough to play a Mavs team spiraling out of control and the Paper Clips in rounds 1 and 2 again. I think teams expose Lawson and Harden defensively in a 7 game series. I do not think Lawson is anywhere near a prime fit with Harden. I think they have some growing pains trying to learn to play together and finish games together. I do not think any of those are outrageous claims to make.

I fail to see one of the beautiful "points" anyone is making to tell me Rockets are a shoe in to be better than last year. More talented? Yes, that doesn't mean jack, as we've seen first hand with your own squad last year, which is why I brought it up.

My argument - I do not think Rockets end up better than they were last year, I do not think they win 56 games, get the 2 seed, or make the WCF. Nobody has given me any reason to believe the contrary.

What are these awesome points you guys are making that I'm missing? They will be healthier? (they did better the year they were injured), have more talent at PG? (they did better with the grandfathers). Unless you guys are guaranteeing more success and a deeper playoff run than last year, I'm not even sure why you are arguing.

You do realize that 3/5 of the starting lineup and the whole bench was different the year before, right? That was only Harden's second year as a Rocket, Howard's second, Beverley and Jones were sophomores and Asik was trying to play PF. If you fail to realize how big a year can be, in terms of experience, especially for a young team that just got together, you can stop pretending to know about basketball. Sports, actually.

Bottom line, the Rockets are a young team that managed to get 56 wins, the 2nd seed, the division title in the toughest division ever, and reach the WCF in the loaded West. They aldo did it with two starters watching from the sidelines. It became clear that needed one thing, a second playmaker. They got one. One of the best, I may add.

I agree that they're not a lock to win 56 games or reach the WCF again, but there's no reason to think they're a lock not to. Or to say it's unlikely or anything like that.

They should be better, no matter how you look at it. Everyone seems to agree, except you. You think that upgrading talent, being healhier will somehow make them worse, based on what happened a year and a half ago, when the entire team was different. That's a really bad argument.

Again, let it go, bud.

D-Leethal
07-29-2015, 07:52 AM
He is ignoring that people are saying Lawson over Pablo is an upgrade because he has no response for it. There is no point trying to get through his thick head ... but it's not like he has much to cheer with his own team (he probably wanted Lawson for the Knicks) so he's hanging out here.

I responded to it 100x man, I think Lawson is a piss poor fit with Harden. If you could come up with a perfect PG for Harden, Lawson is the antithesis of that. They will be annihilated on defense every time they step on the court next to each other by the supreme West guard play night in and night out. Him being an upgrade is irrelevant to me - Beverly was an upgrade over Pablo and they got bounced in round 1, Parsons was an upgrade to Ariza and they got bounced in round 1, Ariza plays better D and FIT the Rockets team better despite being way less talented at this stage of his career. It's not like this is UNHEARD of, players being talented as hell and playing way below their talent level and achieving way below their talent level because of questionable fit and glaring weaknesses.

If you want to argue Beverly is a great fit, I agree, he should be starting, finishing, and playing the big time crucial stretches of games. If you want to argue they have great 3 and D forwards, I agree, but both Lawson, Beverly, and Harden are undersized at their positions so if your throwing those 3's on a guards your in trouble on whatever crossmatch you throw those guards on at the forward spot.

I said enough to justify why I think Rockets underwhelm next year. Teams "get better" and play worse all the freakin' time, and it happens when you add a guy like Lawson to be your starting point guard next to a guy like Harden. Did they need an upgrade? **** yea they did. Did that upgrade need to be Lawson in order to get to the next level (next level being title team), NOPE.

D-Leethal
07-29-2015, 07:53 AM
I am not saying Pablo starting this year means they repeat their WCF performance either, they obviously needed an upgrade, they did get Lawson for peanuts but they still have to find a way to incorporate him at a championship level - championship level requires prime fits, prime balance, Lawson doesn't bring that to the Rockets unless he is playing 25 minutes off the bench.

D-Leethal
07-29-2015, 07:56 AM
You do realize that 3/5 of the starting lineup and the whole bench was different the year before, right? That was only Harden's second year as a Rocket, Howard's second, Beverley and Jones were sophomores and Asik was trying to play PF. If you fail to realize how big a year can be, in terms of experience, especially for a young team that just got together, you can stop pretending to know about basketball. Sports, actually.

Bottom line, the Rockets are a young team that managed to get 56 wins, the 2nd seed, the division title in the toughest division ever, and reach the WCF in the loaded West. They aldo did it with two starters watching from the sidelines. It became clear that needed one thing, a second playmaker. They got one. One of the best, I may add.

I agree that they're not a lock to win 56 games or reach the WCF again, but there's no reason to think they're a lock not to. Or to say it's unlikely or anything like that.

They should be better, no matter how you look at it. Everyone seems to agree, except you. You think that upgrading talent, being healhier will somehow make them worse, based on what happened a year and a half ago, when the entire team was different. That's a really bad argument.

Again, let it go, bud.

I don't think "make them worse" and "have a worse season" are one in the same. IN MY OPINION, it won't be as easy to incorporate Lawson and Harden into a championship formula as you think. Unless his role is watered down and reduced big time. If you are relying on him being a 35 mpg PG and finishing games, you guys are getting bounced the second you vs great guards or a great pick and roll team. That's my opinion and I think it's valid.

And just because they were young doesn't mean anything man, is that some rule or something? LeBron made the finals when he was like 22 and than took a 4 year hiatus. OKC made the finals when they were babies and couldn't get it done with another year, another year, another year of experience. You can pretend like THAT was the reason they got bounced in round 1 (funny that the team they bounced them was brand new at their own right) and now it's just smooth sailing but it's not gonna work that way, not out west.

D-Leethal
07-29-2015, 08:02 AM
You switch Lawson with a guy like Goran Dragic, a big guard who can defend, shoot 40% from deep and make plays off the bounce, that is someone they should have sold the farm for at the deadline, I would be clamoring Rox to win the title. I think if anything, you guys have elementary views of the game, where an upgrade happens in a vaccum and make the team auto-better, regardless of fit, chemistry, balance/defense, or continuity.

mightybosstone
07-29-2015, 08:53 AM
I'm pretty much done with this troll at this point. The guy has made some decent points, but it's pretty clear he has no interest in debating any legitimate counters and only wants to argue his side of the discussion. Then when posters complain about his inability to do so, he just calls everyone homers and crybabies like a 12-year-old. It's unfortunate because I've seen him write decent posts in the past.

EDUTEXANS
07-29-2015, 10:55 AM
I responded to it 100x man, I think Lawson is a piss poor fit with Harden. If you could come up with a perfect PG for Harden, Lawson is the antithesis of that. They will be annihilated on defense every time they step on the court next to each other by the supreme West guard play night in and night out. Him being an upgrade is irrelevant to me - Beverly was an upgrade over Pablo and they got bounced in round 1, Parsons was an upgrade to Ariza and they got bounced in round 1, Ariza plays better D and FIT the Rockets team better despite being way less talented at this stage of his career. It's not like this is UNHEARD of, players being talented as hell and playing way below their talent level and achieving way below their talent level because of questionable fit and glaring weaknesses.

If you want to argue Beverly is a great fit, I agree, he should be starting, finishing, and playing the big time crucial stretches of games. If you want to argue they have great 3 and D forwards, I agree, but both Lawson, Beverly, and Harden are undersized at their positions so if your throwing those 3's on a guards your in trouble on whatever crossmatch you throw those guards on at the forward spot.

I think it's funny that you seem to think us, and by "us" I think you mean every other poster posting in this thread, have elementary vews of basketball, and yet you talk about stuff like SFs can't play in the backcourt, you need a PG to defend another PG and you think guys like Harden or Beverley can't defend a catch-and-shooter player like most teams have. Hell, Harden has done pretty well defending 4s.


I said enough to justify why I think Rockets underwhelm next year. Teams "get better" and play worse all the freakin' time, and it happens when you add a guy like Lawson to be your starting point guard next to a guy like Harden. Did they need an upgrade? **** yea they did. Did that upgrade need to be Lawson in order to get to the next level (next level being title team), NOPE.

No, you didn't. You're guessing. That's what you're doing. They added what they needed the most, and they should have two starters back from injury and let's not forget Howard missed 41 games and Jones missed two thirds of the season. Sure, they could be worse, and they could not repeat this past season, but everything seems to be pointing the other way. There's nothing you could say to justify they will be worse. They could, sure, but I don't see how you can say they definitely will. If Lawson doesn't pan out, he's a expiring contract, he can be traded or cut at any point, if it makes you feel better.


I don't think "make them worse" and "have a worse season" are one in the same. IN MY OPINION, it won't be as easy to incorporate Lawson and Harden into a championship formula as you think. Unless his role is watered down and reduced big time. If you are relying on him being a 35 mpg PG and finishing games, you guys are getting bounced the second you vs great guards or a great pick and roll team. That's my opinion and I think it's valid.

I don't think any Rocket fan expects Lawson to play 35 minutes a game. He'll share the position with Beverley with Beverley getting a couple of minutes next to him. But the main reason the Rockets made the trade is not to get someone to play next to Harden, but to get someone Harden can play next to. Harden needs someone to take the pressure off of him. And then, Harden is an above average three-point shooter, and he vastly improved his defense, and he should be even better if he doesn't have to it all on offense. And obviously, the Rockets needed another playmaker for when Harden is on the bench, or hurt or having an off night.


And just because they were young doesn't mean anything man, is that some rule or something? LeBron made the finals when he was like 22 and than took a 4 year hiatus. OKC made the finals when they were babies and couldn't get it done with another year, another year, another year of experience. You can pretend like THAT was the reason they got bounced in round 1 (funny that the team they bounced them was brand new at their own right) and now it's just smooth sailing but it's not gonna work that way, not out west.

Why not? Are you just ignore the ridiculously huge improvements Harden did this season? The guy went to a star to a MVP-worthy player. Or how about the Warriors? Who did they add? Livingston? The rest was just yonug guys improving as they got more experienced. I'm sure you know how that turned out.


You switch Lawson with a guy like Goran Dragic, a big guard who can defend, shoot 40% from deep and make plays off the bounce, that is someone they should have sold the farm for at the deadline, I would be clamoring Rox to win the title. I think if anything, you guys have elementary views of the game, where an upgrade happens in a vaccum and make the team auto-better, regardless of fit,

Now you're also showing you don't know much about how to run a team. The Heat traded, IIRC, two unprotected first roud picks and paid him $100M for 29-year old, career 12 and 4 PG. And after talking that much about Lawson, you should know he's been a better 3-point shooter than Dragic suring his career, a better playmaker and while Dragic is definitely the better defender, his advanced defensive numbers suggest they're equally bad. Lawson is also 2 years younger and entering the season Dragic exploded.


chemistry, balance/defense, or continuity.

And can't you see how much you contradict yourself?

Scoots
07-29-2015, 03:22 PM
I responded to it 100x man, I think Lawson is a piss poor fit with Harden.

Fail. Let's try this again .. is Lawson an upgrade over Prigioni?

valade16
07-29-2015, 03:28 PM
Fail. Let's try this again .. is Lawson an upgrade over Prigioni?

Where did this Prigioni thing come from? He didn't start a game for the Rockets last season did he?

If anything it'd be is Lawson better than Beverely or at the most Terry.

Saddletramp
07-29-2015, 07:02 PM
Where did this Prigioni thing come from? He didn't start a game for the Rockets last season did he?

If anything it'd be is Lawson better than Beverely or at the most Terry.

Prig was traded (amoung others) for Lawson and since Prig was the only guy sharing the position, he's the "upgrade". Terry won't play as many minutes at the 1, and Bev was hurt late last year.

D-Leethal
07-29-2015, 08:31 PM
Fail. Let's try this again .. is Lawson an upgrade over Prigioni?

Pretty sure I said he was about 5x in this thread. Does he take the Rox from a 56 win WCF team to a Finals team? Nope...

D-Leethal
07-29-2015, 08:39 PM
Pick the 10 WORST starting point guards you can see next to Harden.

GO.

D-Leethal
07-29-2015, 08:42 PM
And for a fun extra credit tell me why they are worse of a fit than DUI Lawson.

mightybosstone
07-29-2015, 08:44 PM
Where did this Prigioni thing come from? He didn't start a game for the Rockets last season did he?

If anything it'd be is Lawson better than Beverely or at the most Terry.

Beverley is back and Terry is likely to be back. Also, Prigioni played some pretty substantial minutes for the Rockets in the playoffs (unfortunately). So the Rockets are essentially replacing him with Lawson at PG. Whether he starts or comes off the bench is kind of irrelevant because anytime you replace a player who has no business being in a rotation in the first place with a guy who's arguably top 10 at his position, that's a massive improvement.

D-Leethal
07-29-2015, 08:47 PM
Next thing you know Brandon Jennings will be taking the Rox to the promised land.

D-Leethal
07-29-2015, 08:49 PM
Beverley is back and Terry is likely to be back. Also, Prigioni played some pretty substantial minutes for the Rockets in the playoffs (unfortunately). So the Rockets are essentially replacing him with Lawson at PG. Whether he starts or comes off the bench is kind of irrelevant because anytime you replace a player who has no business being in a rotation in the first place with a guy who's arguably top 10 at his position, that's a massive improvement.

You wouldn't have said Lawson was top 10 before he got traded to the Rox and you know it....

mightybosstone
07-29-2015, 09:00 PM
Pretty sure I said he was about 5x in this thread. Does he take the Rox from a 56 win WCF team to a Finals team? Nope...
I believe you also said that the NBA is extremely difficult to predict, did you not? Maybe you should take your own advice. Bottom line, the Rockets are likely among the four best teams in the Western Conference right now, and they have as good a chance to come out of the West than any team other than maybe Golden State and San Antonio. Will they make it to the Finals? Probably not. But could they? Certainly.

Pick the 10 WORST starting point guards you can see next to Harden.

GO.
In no particular order...
1. Rajon Rondo. Why? He's terrible.
2. Emmanuel Mudiay. Why? Rookie.
3. Jordan Clarkson. Why? He's young and can't hit a 3-pointer.
4. Ricky Rubio. Why? He's an awful 3-point shooter.
5. Reggie Jackson. Why? He's an awful 3-point shooter.
6. Dante Exum or Trey Burke. Why? Pretty much all of the reasons above.
7. Michael Carter Williams. Why? Ditto.
8. Kemba Walker. Why? Terribly inefficient and can't shoot a 3-pointer.
9. Deron Williams. Why? Old and inefficient.
10. Elfrid Payton. Why? See Clarkson, Jordan.
11. Derrick Rose. Why? Falling apart and his 3-point shooting makes everyone else on this list look good.

See? I even gave you an extra one for good measure.


And for a fun extra credit tell me why they are worse of a fit than DUI Lawson.
Wow. Three posts in a row in which you don't even quote or directly respond to a particular point? Ever heard of post padding? Because you're doing it.

D-Leethal
07-29-2015, 09:11 PM
I believe you also said that the NBA is extremely difficult to predict, did you not? Maybe you should take your own advice. Bottom line, the Rockets are likely among the four best teams in the Western Conference right now, and they have as good a chance to come out of the West than any team other than maybe Golden State and San Antonio. Will they make it to the Finals? Probably not. But could they? Certainly.

In no particular order...
1. Rajon Rondo. Why? He's terrible.
2. Emmanuel Mudiay. Why? Rookie.
3. Jordan Clarkson. Why? He's young and can't hit a 3-pointer.
4. Ricky Rubio. Why? He's an awful 3-point shooter.
5. Reggie Jackson. Why? He's an awful 3-point shooter.
6. Dante Exum or Trey Burke. Why? Pretty much all of the reasons above.
7. Michael Carter Williams. Why? Ditto.
8. Kemba Walker. Why? Terribly inefficient and can't shoot a 3-pointer.
9. Deron Williams. Why? Old and inefficient.
10. Elfrid Payton. Why? See Clarkson, Jordan.
11. Derrick Rose. Why? Falling apart and his 3-point shooting makes everyone else on this list look good.

See? I even gave you an extra one for good measure.


Wow. Three posts in a row in which you don't even quote or directly respond to a particular point? Ever heard of post padding? Because you're doing it.

I have been on this forum for 8 years, I don't give a **** about post padding. You didn't even acknowledge the defensive part of the ball on your list. But at we know you named 11 because you couldn't think of 12, (let alone without picking a rookie you've never even seen play and whose team just dumped DUI for nothing because he was waiting in the wings).

Even better the sole reason you give for 8 out of 11, Lawson sucks balls at too and has steadily declined since his rookie year, and is worse on defense.

mightybosstone
07-29-2015, 09:13 PM
You wouldn't have said Lawson was top 10 before he got traded to the Rox and you know it....
Why not? At the very least, he's absolutely in the discussion, hence the word "arguably." Here's a rough list at the top of my head:
1. Steph Curry
2. Chris Paul
3. Russell Westbrook
4. Kyrie Irving
5. John Wall
6. Damian Lillard
7. Mike Conley
8. Goran Dragic
9. Kyle Lowry
10. Ty Lawson

That seems like a pretty fair list. Sure, there's a few guys you could make a case for ahead of him like Bledsoe, Teague, Thomas and Parker (if he ever gets healthy again), but I give Lawson the edge because of his superior distribution. And there are a few young guys you could make a pretty weak case for like Knight and Jackson, but I don't think they've done enough to prove they're better than Lawson.