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KnicksorBust
07-12-2015, 03:42 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/story/_/id/13225337/nba-track-hustle-stats-all-games-las-vegas-summer-league

LAS VEGAS -- Diving for loose balls, getting a hand in passing lanes for a deflection, being close enough to contest a shot, or sacrificing the body and taking a charge.

For years, they've been called intangibles.

The NBA is about to try to make them tangible.

All 67 games in the NBA summer league at Las Vegas will have so-called "hustle stats" officially tracked, a nod to the league's evolving reliance on analytics and all the things besides scoring that help decide the outcome of games. A trained crew will chart 2-pointers contested, 3-pointers contested, deflections, loose balls recovered and charges taken.

Those numbers will go into a formula to determine which players hustled most in any given game, and will be available through advanced box scores that will be distributed in-game to team personnel, media and broadcasters. Fans will have postgame access to the information by opening box scores posted to the NBA's website.
The NBA will use Las Vegas Summer League games to test a stat-tracking program aimed at measuring previously unquantifiable plays, such as contested shots. AP Photo/Rick Bowmer

"I think we're all just scratching the surface," said Kiki Vandeweghe, the NBA's senior vice president for basketball operations. "We don't know where the analytics is going to take us. The more data you have, the longer we do this, the better idea we'll have of the direction. It's really interesting because a lot of the basketball decisions are data-driven. The analytics are now affecting the way the game is played."

Much like referees using headsets to talk with one another -- and in some cases, the NBA's office in Secaucus, New Jersey -- in games this summer, the hustle-stat-tracking project is in its infancy and likely wouldn't be added to the regular-season repertoire until at least the 2016-17 season.

But while teams use summer league to find a hidden gem or two, the league itself uses it as a laboratory of sorts to see how the game can get better for all involved.

Hence, the tinkering with refs and stats.

"You've got to look at everything," said Joe Borgia, the NBA's senior vice president for replay and referee operations. "We're always trying to look at things that possibly could help us."

Teams have been charting hustle numbers for years. Many will want a certain number of deflections per game, for example. But for the most part, fans haven't been able to have access to that info.

Players briefed on the general idea say its time has come.

"It wins games. Hustle wins games," Miami forward Udonis Haslem said. "Whether you want to keep a stat for it or whether you want to say it's not a big deal, it wins games. We're not going out there and just running like a chicken with your head cut off. That's two different things. I'd say 95 percent of the time, when we win the hustle areas, dominate the loose balls, dominate rebounds, dominate steals, those categories, we win the game. It's a fact."

Adding them to the box score, or at least getting the nitty-gritty-type numbers out there more openly, might serve as motivation to players as well.

"When you can put numbers and stats on things, it gives a player a reason why we're telling them to do certain things," said Minnesota assistant coach Ryan Saunders, the Timberwolves' summer league coach. "So to have physical data and reasons for those kinds of plays is definitely a positive for us as coaches."

Vandeweghe stressed that the idea is a long way from becoming part of the everyday NBA. A team of stats people was trained specifically to monitor hustle in Las Vegas, and then feedback will be needed from teams to see whether any of it was actually helpful.

So, too, is the headset idea that referees are playing with this summer.

It's not new. Borgia said that Darell Garretson, a longtime referee and officials supervisor until the late 1990s, experimented with headsets during summer play in the 1980s.

Technology is obviously way more advanced now, and the equipment referees are using this summer is hardly noticeable.

"The one major drawback, which I'm sure could be fixed with the technology we have out there, is it's kind of having swimmer's ear," NBA referee Brent Barnaky said. "And you can't really hear out of one ear. You really need your senses as a referee. You need to be able to hear."

There are other challenges. So far, they've been used in relatively quiet gyms. How would they work in a loud arena during a playoff game? Will officials in Secaucus be able to stay in constant contact, and will teams want that to happen? Will custom equipment be needed? All that and more is still guesswork, and those are some of the things the NBA will assess before going forward.

"We look at the game as a whole," Borgia said. "We hear from everybody. The rules of the game per se haven't changed, but a lot of the interpretations have changed. We're always -- always -- monitoring the game."

hugepatsfan
07-12-2015, 03:49 PM
Looking forward to reading post after post of people saying their scrub players are great now.

mike_noodles
07-12-2015, 04:05 PM
This is a great step forward.

warfelg
07-12-2015, 04:12 PM
Thad Young might finally lead a stat in something.

KnicksorBust
07-12-2015, 04:45 PM
If they kept this stat for the whole regular season...

Prediction who would be the top 3 players in "hustle" for the 2015-2016 season?

Rivera
07-12-2015, 04:49 PM
Another stat to help agents get their clients more money

I'll take a stab at kobs prediction

1) Russell Westbrook
2) draymond green
3) Tristan Thompson

Cal827
07-12-2015, 05:11 PM
Another stat to help agents get their clients more money

I'll take a stab at kobs prediction

1) Russell Westbrook
2) draymond green
3) Tristan Thompson

That's exactly what I thought with this. Salary cap going up, so lets add some stats to justify the contracts :laugh2:

Gander13SM
07-12-2015, 05:36 PM
This makes sense. Advanced metrics keep improving and this is the next logical step.

People will overuse it though (like they do now with PER). It's still in its infancy clearly but I like the direction.

Raps18-19 Champ
07-12-2015, 05:42 PM
Amir Johnson is an all star now.

mike_noodles
07-12-2015, 06:02 PM
It would be nice if they could get something like good screen vs bad screen.

slaker619
07-12-2015, 07:26 PM
Finally going noticed

ManningToTyree
07-12-2015, 07:30 PM
Very interesting

LakerShow
07-12-2015, 07:31 PM
Taking charges stat is dumb imo. That will increase the ****ing flopping.

Ebbs
07-12-2015, 07:31 PM
Love it, but it'll get too much hype early.

MrfadeawayJB
07-12-2015, 07:47 PM
We already know who hustles just by the eye test

tredigs
07-12-2015, 08:36 PM
Taking charges stat is dumb imo. That will increase the ****ing flopping.
It has been tracked for years. Demarcus Cousins sadly dominates it every season. I say sadly, because while charges have their place, I don't want to see the games behemoths actively seeking out charges against smaller players (most of which are 50/50 and just as often result in blocking fouls + FT's) rather than contesting shots. It's probably my biggest NBA pet peeve.

I do know that they've used SportsVu to track "long rebounds" and that Westbrook and Curry were at the top of the list.

LakerShow
07-12-2015, 08:48 PM
It has been tracked for years. Demarcus Cousins sadly dominates it every season. I say sadly, because while charges have their place, I don't want to see the games behemoths actively seeking out charges against smaller players (most of which are 50/50 and just as often result in blocking fouls + FT's) rather than contesting shots. It's probably my biggest NBA pet peeve.

I do know that they've used SportsVu to track "long rebounds" and that Westbrook and Curry were at the top of the list.

i think it will make the nba officiating that much more difficult to call during games. they should keep it as is for charges.

Corey
07-12-2015, 08:50 PM
Taking charges stat is dumb imo. That will increase the ****ing flopping.

Completely disagree on it making a difference in the amount of flopping or attempted charges

LakerShow
07-12-2015, 08:53 PM
Completely disagree on it making a difference in the amount of flopping or attempted charges

how so. you dont think players would be more tempted to step in front of isolating players and start flopping?

tredigs
07-12-2015, 09:21 PM
how so. you dont think players would be more tempted to step in front of isolating players and start flopping?

Because an already existing stat might become slightly more known among hardcore basketball fans? No dude, it won't change anything there.

IndyRealist
07-12-2015, 09:34 PM
That's exactly what I thought with this. Salary cap going up, so lets add some stats to justify the contracts :laugh2:

Agents already do use it to justify contracts. There are just now quantifiable measures to call agents liars.

LakerShow
07-12-2015, 09:35 PM
Because an already existing stat might become slightly more known among hardcore basketball fans? No dude, it won't change anything there.

none of us would truly know, that all falls down if it gets ever implemented to the rule system if it does change the way charges are going to be taken.

we can all have our own different outlook on certain things. right here, i would tend to disagree.

IndyRealist
07-12-2015, 09:37 PM
We already know who hustles just by the eye test

Sure, if you could watch every game, pay attention to every player simultaneously on the court for 48 minutes, and remember it all. Yes, then the eye test would tell you who hustles.

tredigs
07-12-2015, 09:45 PM
none of us would truly know, that all falls down if it gets ever implemented to the rule system if it does change the way charges are going to be taken.

we can all have our own different outlook on certain things. right here, i would tend to disagree.

I honestly don't understand what you're trying to say...? In what way would tracking something that already occurs cause it to change? And again, THIS IS ALREADY TRACKED, has been for years and years.

For example I can tell you with a 3 second google search that Joel Pryzbilla drew 47 charges during the 2007/08 season, good for 4th most in the NBA (Derek Fisher, Bogut, Miki Moore drew the most).

Vee-Rex
07-13-2015, 01:19 AM
Yeah I'm not a big fan of 'taking charges'. An old thing that should have been done away with in the NBA IMO.

naps
07-13-2015, 05:12 AM
Yeah this is very interesting but pretty sure some scrubs are gonna get paid because of this.

LakersIn5
07-13-2015, 08:07 AM
I miss the old nba when the only significant stats are raw stats.

Gander13SM
07-13-2015, 02:55 PM
Yeah I'm not a big fan of 'taking charges'. An old thing that should have been done away with in the NBA IMO.

Wait... you mean the actual rule? Lmao.

I'm sorry but what sort of basketball purist would say that?

Smh. Some of the stuff I read on here... seriously guys.

2-ONE-5
07-13-2015, 03:10 PM
We already know who hustles just by the eye test

hah right. doesnt get any more obvious. as someone else said its just a way for agents to get their lesser guys more money.

Gritz
07-13-2015, 03:12 PM
Kenneth Faried is going to be an all star now

Hawkeye15
07-13-2015, 03:15 PM
This will validate Rubio's contract.

TheNumber37
07-13-2015, 04:29 PM
Some players due to get highlighted. Counting charges taken seems long overdue.

Just need an offensive player of the year.

tredigs
07-13-2015, 07:14 PM
Some players due to get highlighted. Counting charges taken seems long overdue.

Just need an offensive player of the year.

http://hoopsmanifesto.com/articles/nba-stats/nba-charges-drawn-total-201415.html



Charges Taken 2014/15 NBA Season:

1 D Cousins 34
2 Monta Ellis 29
3 Mo Speights 28
4 Kyle Lowry 26
5 D Motiejunas 24
5 Ersan Ilyasova 24
7 Devin Harris 23
8 Aron Baynes 18
9 A Tolliver 17
10 Aaron Brooks 16
10 Markieff Morris 16
12 Luis Scola 15
13 Draymond Green 12
13 J.J. Redick 12
13 Mario Chalmers 12
13 Pero Antic 12
13 Udonis Haslem 12
18 Kenneth Faried 11
18 Kevin Love 11
18 Kirk Hinrich 11
18 Nick Collison 11
18 Rajon Rondo 11
18 Stephen Curry 11
18 Tyler Zeller 11
25 Alan Anderson 10
25 D Gallinari 10
25 Dennis Schroder 10
25 Glen Davis 10
25 Josh Smith 10
25 Mike Dunleavy 10
25 Robbie Hummel 10
25 Wesley Matthews 10
33 Amir Johnson 9

smith&wesson
07-13-2015, 07:28 PM
We already know who hustles just by the eye test

you "knowing" and the player actually being measured and credited statistically are two different things.

For example, for a hustle player negotiating a contract, he couldn't exactly tell the GM ... "ask the fans they know I hustle" as appose to "look at the numbers"

see the difference ?

MrfadeawayJB
07-13-2015, 08:28 PM
We already know who hustles just by the eye test

you "knowing" and the player actually being measured and credited statistically are two different things.

For example, for a hustle player negotiating a contract, he couldn't exactly tell the GM ... "ask the fans they know I hustle" as appose to "look at the numbers"

see the difference ?


True but any basketball personnel in a competent scouting dept can tell, they don't need numbers.

IndyRealist
07-13-2015, 09:36 PM
True but any basketball personnel in a competent scouting dept can tell, they don't need numbers.

Half the job of the scouting dept is crunching these kind of numbers. The Pacers under Jim O'Brien used to have an assistant coach who's sole job during games was to track deflections and charges taken. The fact that the league will be tracking them will simply free up scouts to watch the games closer instead of recording ticks. You can't really think that all scouts do is sit at the game and go, "Yep. He looks good."

ManRam
07-13-2015, 10:31 PM
True but any basketball personnel in a competent scouting dept can tell, they don't need numbers.

at the very least it's another tool to use. eye tests are often misleading. stats can be too. but the more tools you have the better picture you're painting of the truth. plus, we're talking about things that are quantifiable...why not quantify the quantifiable?