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View Full Version : What Will Be Lebrons Ceiling on the ATL?



RocketLoc80
07-08-2015, 04:51 PM
Discuss now that some people dont have him in the top 10 of all time list? So where does he end up all time?

Big Zo
07-08-2015, 04:52 PM
In the "Atlanta"?

nickdymez
07-08-2015, 04:58 PM
Close this.......

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-08-2015, 05:00 PM
He'll land up in the 6-10 range when's it's all said and done

Dade County
07-08-2015, 05:07 PM
If he doesn't WIN anymore rings, 7 through 10 range.


If he can WIN 2 or more rings, 3 through 6.

If he can 3peat, 2nd greatest player ever.

NYKnickFanatic
07-08-2015, 05:10 PM
Whether he wins more rings or not, top 5.

FraziersKnicks
07-08-2015, 05:10 PM
Top 8: Definite

Top 5: Probable

Top 3: Possible

NYKnickFanatic
07-08-2015, 05:12 PM
If he doesn't WIN anymore rings, 7 through 10 range.


If he can WIN 2 or more rings, 3 through 6.

If he can 3peat, 2nd greatest player ever.

Why are you basing it off of rings? Where does Horry rank for you? Why isn't Russell GOAT?

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-08-2015, 05:18 PM
If he doesn't WIN anymore rings, 7 through 10 range.


If he can WIN 2 or more rings, 3 through 6.

If he can 3peat, 2nd greatest player ever.

I like this

Dade County
07-08-2015, 05:23 PM
Why are you basing it off of rings? Where does Horry rank for you? Why isn't Russell GOAT?


Horry hit BIG shots (he isn't ranked anywhere on any list)... Maybe if we made a "Player that you want taking the last shot?", thread. lol

Lbj is the driving force that wins the rings (also he was the driving force that gave Dallas a ring)

Russell wouldn't be Russell in todays basketball. Players are faster, stronger, ...etc. Doesn't mean that Russell wouldn't have been a star player though.

But if you put Lbj back in that time period, he might score 75-100pts when he felt like it (so would Jordan...etc)

Dade County
07-08-2015, 05:30 PM
I like this

FYI

He's above Kobe already.

And it begins... LMAO

Hawkeye15
07-08-2015, 05:35 PM
top 50

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-08-2015, 05:37 PM
I like this

FYI

He's above Kobe already.

And it begins... LMAOwell that's quite the contradiction since Kobe is top 5

5ass
07-08-2015, 05:38 PM
Second to Jordan.

Kyben36
07-08-2015, 05:38 PM
IMO, Top list are very dificult, because its hard to say, and there have been so many greats you know. and alot of them never really played one another.

IMO, he is surely the best player of the Mid Decade of 2005-2015. Kobe probably beats him out the first half of the 2000s. but that said, where does he rank on the list depends.

alot of people will always question him.... for leaving and chasing tittles in his prime. and then leaving the top 2 conference team twice. to play with better players.

So here is a question, looking at this list.... which players can he surpass, and which have him beat.
BTW, i got this list, didnt make it


1) Michael x6
2) Magic x5
3) Larry x3
4) Kareem x6
5) Wilt x2
6) Russell x11
7) Kobe x5
8) Hakeem x2
9) Shaq x4
10) Duncan x5

The Problems for me is, its really hard to boot anyone out of this top 10, and despite if Lebron does win more tittles, like i said, people will allways question his ability to be the guy, when he chased titles the way he did.

5ass
07-08-2015, 05:38 PM
well that's quite the contradiction since Kobe is top 5

Lmao.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-08-2015, 05:42 PM
IMO, Top list are very dificult, because its hard to say, and there have been so many greats you know. and alot of them never really played one another.

IMO, he is surely the best player of the Mid Decade of 2005-2015. Kobe probably beats him out the first half of the 2000s. but that said, where does he rank on the list depends.

alot of people will always question him.... for leaving and chasing tittles in his prime. and then leaving the top 2 conference team twice. to play with better players.

So here is a question, looking at this list.... which players can he surpass, and which have him beat.
BTW, i got this list, didnt make it


1) Michael x6
2) Magic x5
3) Larry x3
4) Kareem x6
5) Wilt x2
6) Russell x11
7) Kobe x5
8) Hakeem x2
9) Shaq x4
10) Duncan x5

The Problems for me is, its really hard to boot anyone out of this top 10, and despite if Lebron does win more tittles, like i said, people will allways question his ability to be the guy, when he chased titles the way he did.
Awesome post

Dade County
07-08-2015, 05:44 PM
well that's quite the contradiction since Kobe is top 5


Well... Everyone has their on list...

I have Shaq in front of Kobe.


But i was just playing around in my post, I don't want to turn this into a Lbj vs Kobe thread or whatever.


But yeah, everyone list will be a little different.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-08-2015, 05:47 PM
Second to Jordan.

I disagree

Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem might still be ahead of him when its all said and done. I think he will probably surpass the rest though if he hasn't already.

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-08-2015, 05:48 PM
Well... Everyone has their on list...

I have Shaq in front of Kobe.


But i was just playing around in my post, I don't want to turn this into a Lbj vs Kobe thread or whatever.


But yeah, everyone list will be a little different.

Yeah, I have Shaq arguably as high as #2 all time. Prime Shaq was pretty much unstoppable. Such a dominating force of nature.

Hawkeye15
07-08-2015, 05:50 PM
Yeah, I have Shaq arguably as high as #2 all time. Prime Shaq was pretty much unstoppable. Such a dominating force of nature.

I don't have him over KAJ/Wilt.

Seriously, look at the 70's numbers/accolades/awards that KAJ had. It's stupid.

5ass
07-08-2015, 05:52 PM
I disagree

Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem might still be ahead of him when its all said and done. I think he will probably surpass the rest though if he hasn't already.

Question said what's his "ceiling" though.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-08-2015, 05:59 PM
I disagree

Shaq, Wilt, and Kareem might still be ahead of him when its all said and done. I think he will probably surpass the rest though if he hasn't already.

Question said what's his "ceiling" though.5-6 Max, that's if he wins 2-3 more titles

5ass
07-08-2015, 06:08 PM
5-6 Max, that's if he wins 2-3 more titles

Have you talked to a doctor about your obsession yet dellusionist? You're a joke on this forum, no one takes you seriously. Hope you do better in the real world, but I doubt it.

Bron > Kobe
07-08-2015, 06:25 PM
Have you talked to a doctor about your obsession yet dellusionist? You're a joke on this forum, no one takes you seriously. Hope you do better in the real world, but I doubt it.

not nice bro

JLynn943
07-08-2015, 06:34 PM
not nice bro

Truth hurts sometimes. It's like that for half the nba forum though.

And on topic: his ceiling is 2nd all time

More-Than-Most
07-08-2015, 06:34 PM
top 5-7 right now... top 2 when its all said and done.

Kyben36
07-08-2015, 06:38 PM
I don't have him over KAJ/Wilt.

Seriously, look at the 70's numbers/accolades/awards that KAJ had. It's stupid.

dont forget russell Please,

Tony_Starks
07-08-2015, 06:49 PM
No more rings, top 10.

More rings, top 5 dead or alive.

Vinylman
07-08-2015, 06:51 PM
The answer is Jordan's testicles

Corey
07-08-2015, 07:04 PM
But if you put Lbj back in that time period, he might score 75-100pts when he felt like it (so would Jordan...etc)

I hate this argument.

Lebron wouldn't have been in the shape that he's in if he grew up in that era.

He wouldn't have played at as young of an age with as much pampering and attention if he was in that era.

He would have grown up watching a different style of basketball in that era.

He would have trained differently if he grew up in that era.

You cant just say "Hey this new school player plopped into the old school game... blah blah blah..", it doesnt work.

If he grew up in that era he wouldn't be playing the style of basketball he plays now.

numba1CHANGsta
07-08-2015, 07:19 PM
Idk but LeBron sure has had it easy out East. Would give this guy a lot of props if he can win a championship in the West but he wants the easy way out.

Teeboy1487
07-08-2015, 07:20 PM
2 more Rings would put him in my top 5 but I can't put him higher than 5.

Slug3
07-08-2015, 07:21 PM
I hate this argument.

Lebron wouldn't have been in the shape that he's in if he grew up in that era.

He wouldn't have played at as young of an age with as much pampering and attention if he was in that era.

He would have grown up watching a different style of basketball in that era.

He would have trained differently if he grew up in that era.

You cant just say "Hey this new school player plopped into the old school game... blah blah blah..", it doesnt work.

If he grew up in that era he wouldn't be playing the style of basketball he plays now.

I actually agree with this. Some say that (insert older player here) would get killed in todays game. But back then people smoked/drank at halftime or even before games. In todays game they would have all the same advantages as players do today. Now I can agree some may not be as dominate as they were back in the day because maybe they wouldn't have enough talent, but they would still be just fine.

Now if you threw Lebron or some other great player back then and they had the training mentality and some of the equipment, then of course they would kill it. But so would a lot of average players in todays games.

GiantsSwaGG
07-08-2015, 07:23 PM
If you factor in his small penis, top 100

kdspurman
07-08-2015, 07:34 PM
5-7 for me depending on how his career plays out from here.

PowerHouse
07-08-2015, 07:35 PM
I hate this argument.

Lebron wouldn't have been in the shape that he's in if he grew up in that era.

He wouldn't have played at as young of an age with as much pampering and attention if he was in that era.

He would have grown up watching a different style of basketball in that era.

He would have trained differently if he grew up in that era.

You cant just say "Hey this new school player plopped into the old school game... blah blah blah..", it doesnt work.

If he grew up in that era he wouldn't be playing the style of basketball he plays now.

All that plus dont forget the differences in defensive rules. Guys were allowed to hand check like crazy back then and tougher fouls were allowed without much penalty.

Sactown
07-08-2015, 07:43 PM
Top 5

I evaluate him as a basketball player , which includes his Dallas series he was part of losing (check out Wade and Bosh's #'s on that close out game...) As well as the multiple MVPs he's won. There isn't one basketball player who had won and not had bad games.
Even Michael Jordan had bad playoff games and lost a bunch before getting the right pieces .

Hawkeye15
07-08-2015, 07:54 PM
dont forget russell Please,

oh god no. Russell is a clinger for top 10 for me. My tiers (it works better for me this way)

Jordan
KAJ/Wilt
Shaq/Duncan/Dream/Magic
LeBron/Kobe/Bird/Russell

I don't care where you put guys in order in my tier's, but I won't move them from those tiers right now. LeBron obviously will move up to the next tier, at least, and may end up in the 2nd tier depending.

mike_noodles
07-08-2015, 08:01 PM
He's already top 10 in my opinion no matter what happens the rest of his career.

nysportsfan23
07-08-2015, 08:48 PM
He's clearly top 10 based on his numbers now and where they'll be.
It's all about titles now, the lebron obsessed will complain but that's how it goes for a goat conversation. 4 it can be discussed, 5 it's a debate, 6 or more it's a debate that can clearly go his way. Downsides for lbj will be weak foul rules (Jordan could be handchecked/ be beaten by Pistons/Knicks while lebron can barely be touched) lebron has more manufactured free agent teams. Upsides will be all around stats/versatility (really a magic/jordan hybrid), taking incredibly pathetic teams to finals.

D-Leethal
07-08-2015, 08:52 PM
I put a rock ceiling at #3.

nickdymez
07-08-2015, 09:07 PM
oh god no. Russell is a clinger for top 10 for me. My tiers (it works better for me this way)

Jordan
KAJ/Wilt
Shaq/Duncan/Dream/Magic
LeBron/Kobe/Bird/Russell

I don't care where you put guys in order in my tier's, but I won't move them from those tiers right now. LeBron obviously will move up to the next tier, at least, and may end up in the 2nd tier depending.

How does someone move up? Im curious.

mngopher35
07-08-2015, 09:10 PM
I put a rock ceiling at #3.

Mj and kaj? Or is someone else locked in at 2 for you?

Hawkeye15
07-08-2015, 09:19 PM
How does someone move up? Im curious.

well be current. Like, how is anyone retired moving up? Kobe is a shell of himself, he isn't moving up. LeBron is at least still a top 1-5 player in the game, so he can continue moving up, if things go right.

DaBear
07-08-2015, 09:21 PM
Horry hit BIG shots (he isn't ranked anywhere on any list)... Maybe if we made a "Player that you want taking the last shot?", thread. lol

Lbj is the driving force that wins the rings (also he was the driving force that gave Dallas a ring)

Russell wouldn't be Russell in todays basketball. Players are faster, stronger, ...etc. Doesn't mean that Russell wouldn't have been a star player though.

But if you put Lbj back in that time period, he might score 75-100pts when he felt like it (so would Jordan...etc)

Thank you. I get tired of hearing about the Russell and Horry crap. The rings argument is taken completely out of context.

hugepatsfan
07-08-2015, 09:21 PM
Tough to say. He took a step back last year from his unbelievable peak but it remains to be seen if that was just due to the adjustment of a new team. I think we'll be able to better predict the answer this question this time next year.

naps
07-08-2015, 09:27 PM
Well, he is already top 5. And second greatest player of all-time is his ceiling.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-08-2015, 09:53 PM
5-6 Max, that's if he wins 2-3 more titles

Have you talked to a doctor about your obsession yet dellusionist? You're a joke on this forum, no one takes you seriously. Hope you do better in the real world, but I doubt it.

Someone's mad. And yes I do quite nice in my life, been an entrepreneur since 22. Thanks for taking notice.

IKnowHoops
07-08-2015, 10:11 PM
IMO, Top list are very dificult, because its hard to say, and there have been so many greats you know. and alot of them never really played one another.

IMO, he is surely the best player of the Mid Decade of 2005-2015. Kobe probably beats him out the first half of the 2000s. but that said, where does he rank on the list depends.

alot of people will always question him.... for leaving and chasing tittles in his prime. and then leaving the top 2 conference team twice. to play with better players.

So here is a question, looking at this list.... which players can he surpass, and which have him beat.
BTW, i got this list, didnt make it


1) Michael x6
2) Magic x5
3) Larry x3
4) Kareem x6
5) Wilt x2
6) Russell x11
7) Kobe x5
8) Hakeem x2
9) Shaq x4
10) Duncan x5

The Problems for me is, its really hard to boot anyone out of this top 10, and despite if Lebron does win more tittles, like i said, people will allways question his ability to be the guy, when he chased titles the way he did.

How can Kobe be above Shaq? When on the same team, Shaq was the MVP every time. Statistically, Shaq destroys Kobe in every measure. Shaw also won without Phil, I don't think Kobe could of. Shaq's dominance is superior. His 10 best years destroy Kobe's 10 best years. I just don't see any way for Kobe to be above Shaq, and there is no way any GM would take Kobe over Shaq to start a team which I think should weigh the heaviest in these all time rankings

mrblisterdundee
07-08-2015, 10:23 PM
Three of Jordan's championships, two of his MVPs and a third of his prime came in his early 30s. If LeBron can replicate that performance, I think he can be in the conversation for GOAT.
People often don't seem to take into account the crappy rosters in Cleveland that James Godzilla-ed into the playoffs. Even the roster he took to the finals this year was fairly bad. Exchange teenage Kobe Bryant with teenage LeBron James on the Lakers, and I bet they have more championships than they do now.

knicksfan1794
07-08-2015, 11:19 PM
the conversation will be who is the GOAT MJ or Lebron.

5 straight final appearances. cmon he is flat out dominating the NBA and there have been very good teams in the east that he had to pass. He even took the warriors to 6 games all on his own.

and this is coming from someone who hates Lebron just as much as the next guy, you are a straight up hater if you think he is anything out of the top 3

*Silver&Black*
07-08-2015, 11:22 PM
Teague
Korver
Lebron
Millsap
Horford

nice squad

Phantom Dreamer
07-08-2015, 11:29 PM
Top 5

I evaluate him as a basketball player , which includes his Dallas series he was part of losing (check out Wade and Bosh's #'s on that close out game...) As well as the multiple MVPs he's won. There isn't one basketball player who had won and not had bad games.
Even Michael Jordan had bad playoff games and lost a bunch before getting the right pieces .Surprisingly few.

NYJ - NYY
07-08-2015, 11:31 PM
If Lebron was on the Hawks they'd even better ;)

ManningToTyree
07-08-2015, 11:39 PM
Ceiling? Second to Michael.

I don't know if he will reach it but I can't see him being regarded as the GOAT by a majority. 2nd is possible.

I'll say he's very likely to be top5 when he's done

Kashmir13579
07-09-2015, 03:11 AM
Top 5

thenaj17
07-09-2015, 06:23 AM
oh god no. Russell is a clinger for top 10 for me. My tiers (it works better for me this way)

Jordan
KAJ/Wilt
Shaq/Duncan/Dream/Magic
LeBron/Kobe/Bird/Russell

I don't care where you put guys in order in my tier's, but I won't move them from those tiers right now. LeBron obviously will move up to the next tier, at least, and may end up in the 2nd tier depending.

Pretty much where i'd rank them except Russell wouldn't be in top 10 and Kobe just ahead of LeBron by a tiny thread at the moment, soon to be overtaken

Edited thought, i just noticed Duncan ahead of LeBron, Kobe & Bird and totally disagree. He was carried to his last title by 1 of the deepest squads ever and usually got owned by Kobe/Shaq in early 2000's. Definitely a much nicer guy than those 3 but not as individually talented as any of them

Munkeysuit
07-09-2015, 06:34 AM
Lebron James is easily top 10 all time right now! when it's all said and done? I feel top 3-4 all time.
I don't really want to base this off of rings but they do matter in this case because the players I have at the very top have multiple rings and a mountain of accomplishments that took the entirety of their careers to acquire and be acknowledged for...so Lebron will have to wait till he's done for me or anyone else to really give an accurate opinion.

Kyben36
07-09-2015, 08:28 AM
How can Kobe be above Shaq? When on the same team, Shaq was the MVP every time. Statistically, Shaq destroys Kobe in every measure. Shaw also won without Phil, I don't think Kobe could of. Shaq's dominance is superior. His 10 best years destroy Kobe's 10 best years. I just don't see any way for Kobe to be above Shaq, and there is no way any GM would take Kobe over Shaq to start a team which I think should weigh the heaviest in these all time rankings

I stated right above that i did not make this list i found it. As for myself. I view shaq as highly over rated bully with very little skill. Personally, he might be the guy i knock out. Its amazing to me how people can question dwights offense when shaq outside of 5 feet was garbage. Fact is. His physical body and demenor inside is what made him great. Im not sure today he gets away with half of his moves to the basket though. How the game chanfes.

KnicksorBust
07-09-2015, 09:04 AM
Yeah that no one abbreviates All-Time List like that.

Mj
Kaj
Magic
Duncan
Kobe
Russell
LeBron
Shaq
Bird
Wilt

I have him at 7. I expect him to pass Russell and Kobe. Duncan and Magic will be a challenge. His ceiling is still #1. He could be the goat.

RLundi
07-09-2015, 09:10 AM
Took me a solid 10 minutes to figure out ATL is "all time list" and not the Atlanta Hawks.

RLundi
07-09-2015, 09:12 AM
Someone's mad. And yes I do quite nice in my life, been an entrepreneur since 22. Thanks for taking notice.

How's your lemonade stand doing? Did you make sure to correct the backwards 5 on the 5 cents sign?

Tony_Starks
07-09-2015, 09:46 AM
Took me a solid 10 minutes to figure out ATL is "all time list" and not the Atlanta Hawks.

I assumed him, KD, D Wade, and Chris Paul were going to Atlanta next season.....

KnicksorBust
07-09-2015, 11:33 AM
Took me a solid 10 minutes to figure out ATL is "all time list" and not the Atlanta Hawks.

It took you that long to read the first post?

Wrigheyes4MVP
07-09-2015, 11:41 AM
I don't have him over KAJ/Wilt.

Seriously, look at the 70's numbers/accolades/awards that KAJ had. It's stupid.

Yeah those are the 2 I probably have above Shaq. I don't see how anyone can put Kobe ahead of him.

MJ is #1, Kareem is probably #2 followed by Wilt, Shaq, Magic, and Hakeem. I think Lebron ends up #3 or #4 on the all time list. He will probably be top 5.

flea
07-09-2015, 12:08 PM
Top 10. He has no real chance of cracking my top 5 now that his prime looks over. If he finds the fountain of youth and/or drastically improves his finesse game (think late MJ) he might beat out Shaq and Hakeem. Otherwise he's somewhere near the end of my top 10.

RocketLoc80
07-09-2015, 12:16 PM
Real question is that how anybody could have Kobe ahead of him at this point. Worse case scenerio they are neck and neck career wise

RocketLoc80
07-09-2015, 12:19 PM
Ok sherlock lets see your top 10

flea
07-09-2015, 12:48 PM
Ok sherlock lets see your top 10

Me? Not going to get into a top 10 argument here so if you don't like it then just deal, hell I don't even treat this as my final say on the matter.

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Duncan
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Hakeem
7. Shaq
8. Lebron
9. Big O
10. Wilt/Russell

Jamiecballer
07-09-2015, 12:59 PM
Close this.......

LOL.

did you just get real uncomfortable here or what!?

Jamiecballer
07-09-2015, 01:00 PM
I like this

of course you would, because it ties one mans legacy completely to a team accomplishment. makes perfect sense when you (fail) to think about it.

KnicksorBust
07-09-2015, 01:12 PM
The Cavs have an incredible opportunity to win titles over the next 4 years with Lebron, Love, Kyrie, etc. He can still be the GOAT. Unlikely? Of course but don't act like it is impossible.

Hawkeye15
07-09-2015, 01:14 PM
The Cavs have an incredible opportunity to win titles over the next 4 years with Lebron, Love, Kyrie, etc. He can still be the GOAT. Unlikely? Of course but don't act like it is impossible.

His 2011 Mavs series just kills him for me, when talking about surpassing Jordan. But I do think he can catch everyone else ahead of him. He will get by Magic, Hakeem, and Duncan, and then he has only Shaq, Wilt, KAJ to catch to land #2. Will he? Guess we will see.

FraziersKnicks
07-09-2015, 01:16 PM
Me? Not going to get into a top 10 argument here so if you don't like it then just deal, hell I don't even treat this as my final say on the matter.

1. MJ
2. KAJ
3. Duncan
4. Bird
5. Magic
6. Hakeem
7. Shaq
8. Lebron
9. Big O
10. Wilt/Russell

I understand this is your own personal opinion and I'm not saying it's wrong, but TD won his last two titles out of his prime. Would he still be top 3 with only 3 rings?

Because you saying LeBron can't crack top 5 even if he wins a few more rings seems like it goes against your reasoning for TD being so high.

Just interested in what you value the most really.

flea
07-09-2015, 01:54 PM
I understand this is your own personal opinion and I'm not saying it's wrong, but TD won his last two titles out of his prime. Would he still be top 3 with only 3 rings?

Because you saying LeBron can't crack top 5 even if he wins a few more rings seems like it goes against your reasoning for TD being so high.

Just interested in what you value the most really.

Duncan was the best player on 5 title teams, and he did it on 3-4 completely different rosters and styles. That is pretty big in my estimation, the only guy besides him to do that is MJ (Kareem had at most 3 and Magic had at most 4). Duncan is also one of the few on any of these lists never to play with another top 30 player, and probably not even top 50 player, in their prime (you could maybe say he had 2 years of a very late prime Robinson, but it was post-injury) so the "he had so much help" is not entirely convincing when you're comparing him to Magic/Kareem (had top 5 player teammates), Jordan, Bird, Shaq, etc.

Don't see how Duncan at 30 was "out of his prime" either. He was top 5 in regular season VORP, WS, PER, WS/48, and box score +/-. He led the playoffs in defensive rebounds, offensive rebounds, field goals, blocks and was 2nd only to Lebron in points. If that is a player out of his prime then I will take it every single day.

FraziersKnicks
07-09-2015, 02:07 PM
Duncan was the best player on 5 title teams, and he did it on 3-4 completely different rosters and styles. That is pretty big in my estimation, the only guy besides him to do that is MJ (Kareem had at most 3 and Magic had at most 4). Duncan is also one of the few on any of these lists never to play with another top 30 player, and probably not even top 50 player, in their prime (you could maybe say he had 2 years of a very late prime Robinson, but it was post-injury) so the "he had so much help" is not entirely convincing when you're comparing him to Magic/Kareem (had top 5 player teammates), Jordan, Bird, Shaq, etc.

Don't see how Duncan at 30 was "out of his prime" either. He was top 5 in regular season VORP, WS, PER, WS/48, and box score +/-. He led the playoffs in defensive rebounds, offensive rebounds, field goals, blocks and was 2nd only to Lebron in points. If that is a player out of his prime then I will take it every single day.

That's cool, just wanted to get an idea of what you valued. I've got Duncan 5/6 so we both value him pretty similarly. Just to play devil's advocate, do you not think LeBron would be top 5 if he won 2 more rings and 2 more Finals MVP's?

If he rounded his career out as a 15x All-Star, 15x All-NBA'er, top 3 in points, top non-PG assist leader, top 3 in PER, top 3 in WS, top 3 WS/48, highest career VORP ever (which he will have next season, which is unreal), 4 MVP's, 4 rings & 4 Finals MVP's. Is that not good enough for top 5 in your opinion? He's pretty much on track for all of the counting stats apart from the extra rings and FMVP's.

mngopher35
07-09-2015, 02:27 PM
I currently have Lebron at 8 and think he can likely move up has high as #3 probably (hard to see him passing kaj). This past 10 year stretch from him is one of the best we have seen in the history of the NBA (at least from a stats/accolade standpoint).

Now he just needs to show he has a few more years of solid aging and I think passing Hakeem/Magic/Shaq is very likely on my list but Duncan is where it gets a bit tougher for him (I have Duncan at 4).

flea
07-09-2015, 02:27 PM
If he has a top 2 or 3 all-time age 30+ decline, then he might unseat Magic or Bird. But as it stands, I will take the through-30 careers of all 5 of my guys over what Lebron has done. I don't happen to think Lebron will have a particularly great decline, though. Forwards who can't shoot or live in the post have a tougher time. He'll be a great piece as a point forward still, not saying I think he'll wash out, but there's a reason forwards with his offensive game hit a wall at 29-32.

mngopher35
07-09-2015, 02:52 PM
If he has a top 2 or 3 all-time age 30+ decline, then he might unseat Magic or Bird. But as it stands, I will take the through-30 careers of all 5 of my guys over what Lebron has done. I don't happen to think Lebron will have a particularly great decline, though. Forwards who can't shoot or live in the post have a tougher time. He'll be a great piece as a point forward still, not saying I think he'll wash out, but there's a reason forwards with his offensive game hit a wall at 29-32.

To me the bold just sounds crazy. I think a lot of what you are saying about his decline might be true but you are way off with the bold.

Bird through age 30 had:

9,000 less points, 2400 less assists, 70 more rebounds, 80 less blocks and 350 less steals (estimates). On top of this he had a worse overall average and yearly high in PER, TS% and EFG%, WS/48, VORP, and ORTG.

I just don't see how through age 30 you could even consider them to be close with the extra time Lebron had. Lebron obviously has more years during this time frame but it was you who made the through 30 comparison which would definitely favor Lebron.

flea
07-09-2015, 03:07 PM
I don't punish guys for playing college ball - especially when each of them had decorated collegiate careers. In fact, MJ was probably the worst college player of my top 5 and he was still a Wooden award winner (as were Duncan and Bird). Duncan and Bird pulled Steph Curry-type carryjobs in college, while Magic and MJ were helping good teams win titles. Hard to take that as a blemish on their basketball careers, even if they weren't 18 year olds in the NBA.

kyubi256
07-09-2015, 03:08 PM
I have magic, bird, Jordan definitely over Lebron. Outside of that, it's debatable.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-09-2015, 03:09 PM
Haha PsD at its finest.

FraziersKnicks
07-09-2015, 03:16 PM
If he has a top 2 or 3 all-time age 30+ decline, then he might unseat Magic or Bird. But as it stands, I will take the through-30 careers of all 5 of my guys over what Lebron has done. I don't happen to think Lebron will have a particularly great decline, though. Forwards who can't shoot or live in the post have a tougher time. He'll be a great piece as a point forward still, not saying I think he'll wash out, but there's a reason forwards with his offensive game hit a wall at 29-32.

I feel like you're putting a bit too much stock in how well a player plays in his decline as opposed to his peak (which is infinitely more important in these kind of lists). LeBron has had one of the greatest pre-30 careers (easily top 5, maybe top 3). Of course what he does from 30+ onwards is massively important, but I think he's already done enough to overtake Bird, especially considering Bird only played about 4 seasons worth of games after his 30th birthday.

LeBron has demonstrated that he can shoot and can (partially) live in the post. He's an incredibly high IQ guy. There's nothing saying he's not gonna adapt his game. He already has from about 25+ onwards. His athleticism has clearly waned but he's still more athletically gifted than 90% of the league and his game is a lot less focused on that. I would like to see his play style revert back to 2012-13 now he's a bit more comfortable playing alongside his new teammates.

I can see him hovering around 23-25 PPG, 6-7 RPG, 6-7 APG for the next 2-3 years and then slowly becoming more of a facilitator from the post as he gets up to 35/36. The combination of his non-existent injury history (the guy is actually a cyborg) and astronomically high basketball IQ is what sets him apart from the other forwards you compare him to.

mngopher35
07-09-2015, 03:32 PM
I don't punish guys for playing college ball - especially when each of them had decorated collegiate careers. In fact, MJ was probably the worst college player of my top 5 and he was still a Wooden award winner (as were Duncan and Bird). Duncan and Bird pulled Steph Curry-type carryjobs in college, while Magic and MJ were helping good teams win titles. Hard to take that as a blemish on their basketball careers, even if they weren't 18 year olds in the NBA.

It doesn't change the fact that Lebron has done far more by age 30 than Bird (which is what you stated). All of those averages I was using included Lebron at age 19-22 so it should bring down the averages yet his were still higher. Heck lets just look at the 23-30 age for Lebron in that time and compare and he still leads in:

PPG, APG, EFG%, TS%, PER, WS, WS/48, ORTG, VORP

Add in the extra years Lebron had age 18-22 and it really isn't close who had done more by age 30. Even just age 23-30 is debatable who was better and that covers most of Bird's career due to his back injuries (like 2 good years after 30). I mean at this point Lebron has the edge longevity wise already in his career so the more he plays he is just adding to that gap.

flea
07-09-2015, 03:36 PM
We've had this debate on this forum before, not going to turn this thread into Bird vs. Lebron. My stance is pretty well laid out and I'll sum it up as this: for as good as Lebron is, there just aren't very many things he's better than Bird at. There are a lot of things Bird is better than Lebron at, some of them he is much better at.

mngopher35
07-09-2015, 03:39 PM
We've had this debate on this forum before, not going to turn this thread into Bird vs. Lebron. My stance is pretty well laid out and I'll sum it up as this: for as good as Lebron is, there just aren't very many things he's better than Bird at. There are a lot of things Bird is better than Lebron at, some of them he is much better at.

I can agree to disagree on this subject, I think Lebron is better at plenty. You were still way off on your through age 30 thing though which was the issue I had.

FraziersKnicks
07-09-2015, 03:50 PM
We've had this debate on this forum before, not going to turn this thread into Bird vs. Lebron. My stance is pretty well laid out and I'll sum it up as this: for as good as Lebron is, there just aren't very many things he's better than Bird at. There are a lot of things Bird is better than Lebron at, some of them he is much better at.

Other than rebounding, 3 point shooting and free throw shooting, I can't agree. Even the rebounding is closer than their career numbers (10.0 for Bird, 7.1 for Bron) suggest. Bird has a slight advantage in TRB% (14.5% to 10.8%) but in the playoffs their pretty close (13.9 to 12.5). Obviously Bird had the advantage of playing in a much faster paced league, but he does get the nod for rebounding, but not by a huge amount. 3PT and FT shooting, Bird is certainly the superior player, but I really don't see anything else he did better than LeBron outside of those things?

LeBron has actually already played more games and more minutes than Bird, had a more impressive 5 year peak and his career is going to be a hell of a lot longer than Bird's. LeBron has the upper hand in PER, TS%, WS, WS/48, OBPM, BPM and VORP. He also has the upper hand in all of those categories in the playoffs as well. I just really struggle to see an argument for Bird at this stage in their careers.

But you're right, lets not turn this into a Bird/Bron debate. I respect your opinion even if I don't agree with it.

flea
07-09-2015, 03:53 PM
I can agree to disagree on this subject, I think Lebron is better at plenty. You were still way off on your through age 30 thing though which was the issue I had.

Bird turned a crappy team (2nd worst record in the league) into the league's best record in his rooke year. In his sophomore year he took a still raw roster to a title. In 1984 he had one of the best postseasons ever (better than all of Lebron's) to carry another team that wasn't much without him. In 1986 he was a part of one of the best teams of all time.

Lebron did pretty well in Cleveland on a defense-first team, but then bailed because he felt he was owed better. Then, he joined a team strictly built for his skillset (5-out high p&r) and barely won 2 titles in spite of being on the most talented team in the league. They got old so he quit again, and now he's 30 and just had his worst statistical postseason since he was like 21 (even though IMO he played better in 2015 playoffs than he did in 2014 but that's another discussion).

Just not seeing how that's an easy advantage for Lebron. If we cared about ballhogging and regular season stats then Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlin, Moses Malone, and Karl Malone would all be in the top 5. The NBA is about winning.

Chronz
07-09-2015, 04:08 PM
Its entirely up to him and how he adapts to his diminished athleticism. Last year was a good start but hes gotta win with a healthy squad. Really that simple, every GOAT has his blemishes, its about making up for them

KnicksorBust
07-09-2015, 04:09 PM
Its entirely up to him and how he adapts to his diminished athleticism. Last year was a good start but hes gotta win with a healthy squad. Really that simple, every GOAT has his blemishes, its about making up for them

Is it possible for Lebron to be thee GOAT?

Chronz
07-09-2015, 04:15 PM
Bird turned a crappy team (2nd worst record in the league) into the league's best record in his rooke year. In his sophomore year he took a still raw roster to a title. In 1984 he had one of the best postseasons ever (better than all of Lebron's) to carry another team that wasn't much without him. In 1986 he was a part of one of the best teams of all time.

Lebron did pretty well in Cleveland on a defense-first team, but then bailed because he felt he was owed better. Then, he joined a team strictly built for his skillset (5-out high p&r) and barely won 2 titles in spite of being on the most talented team in the league. They got old so he quit again, and now he's 30 and just had his worst statistical postseason since he was like 21 (even though IMO he played better in 2015 playoffs than he did in 2014 but that's another discussion).

Just not seeing how that's an easy advantage for Lebron. If we cared about ballhogging and regular season stats then Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlin, Moses Malone, and Karl Malone would all be in the top 5. The NBA is about winning.
He did deserve more, he took the least talent imaginable to contention and ownership was passing on deals that would helped his quest.

Bird got locked down plenty come playoffs and has already stated he believes Bron had the greatest title run in NBA history. He was nowhere near the defender Bron was and has nowhere near his potential longevity. At his best, sure hes prolly up there with Bron, but its a discernable difference, thus longevity, as always, is the factor that separates Bird from everyone else (Kobe included).


And no, Miami was not built for his skillset. You couldn't come up with a secondary star with more overlapping skillset than Wade (an inconsistent/injured) Wade at that and a team that couldn't survive his departure. Unlike most contending teams.

Chronz
07-09-2015, 04:17 PM
Is it possible for Lebron to be thee GOAT?

Do you covet a finals run in which he underachieved for a series more than someone quitting the game altogether amidst his prime and recharching his battery in the process?

MJ is the best at his peak, but peak isn't all that matters. KAJ is the 2nd GOAT imo because of his longevity, not because I ever felt he was better than Wilt at his best.

mngopher35
07-09-2015, 04:41 PM
Bird turned a crappy team (2nd worst record in the league) into the league's best record in his rooke year. In his sophomore year he took a still raw roster to a title. In 1984 he had one of the best postseasons ever (better than all of Lebron's) to carry another team that wasn't much without him. In 1986 he was a part of one of the best teams of all time.

I am aware of what Bird did, I am not trying to knock him. I think that Lebron had pretty impressive runs with the Heat as well in 12 and 13 so while what Bird did was impressive and arguably better Lebron is right there with his performances as well (including a couple all time great elimination games boston game 6 and spurs game 7). Both of these guys have had some great playoff runs and if you want to give the edge to Bird here that is totally fine with me.


Lebron did pretty well in Cleveland on a defense-first team, but then bailed because he felt he was owed better. Then, he joined a team strictly built for his skillset (5-out high p&r) and barely won 2 titles in spite of being on the most talented team in the league. They got old so he quit again, and now he's 30 and just had his worst statistical postseason since he was like 21 (even though IMO he played better in 2015 playoffs than he did in 2014 but that's another discussion).

Lebron didn't have nearly the same help in Cleveland as Bird in Boston, it wasn't even remotely close. He then went to a Heat team with top heavy talent but wasn't great overall as a team fit (like Boston). While having 4 years with comparable help to what Bird had through most of his career they won 2 rings and he was clearly MVP/FMVP of the league and team both years. I am not seeing the major negative here at all. I agree that at age 30 he is showing signs of decline and it should be getting worse but that doesn't change anything about what they have done previously where Lebron has a huge edge.


Just not seeing how that's an easy advantage for Lebron. If we cared about ballhogging and regular season stats then Elgin Baylor, Wilt Chamberlin, Moses Malone, and Karl Malone would all be in the top 5. The NBA is about winning.

I strongly disagree as I think MJ, Wilt, Lebron, Shaq, KAJ have the best stats either way. Go figure all of them also end up in many peoples top 5-10 lists. Players like the malones lose in many categories compared to Bird over this span (PER, WS/48, Vorp, BPM etc) but Lebron is in a whole other category just behind Shaq/MJ statistically (clearly better than not only the malones but also Bird). On top of this Bird has one more championship than Lebron so both have proved capable of winning. Lastly if NBA is truly just about winning when ranking individual you wouldn't have bird over magic, Hakeem over Shaq, or Big O over Russell.

You say that you don't see how it's an easy advantage for Lebron yet you ignored pretty much everything I posted. Here let me expand on where the advantage comes for Lebron here:

9000 points (and PPG playoff/reg)
2400 assists (and APG playoff/reg)
Better PER, EFG%, TS% WS, WS/48, Vorp etc. both playoffs and regular season
1 more MVP and 1 less ring (same FMVP)
5x 1st team all defense teams (Bird has 2 more 2nd teams than Lebron though)
1 all nba 1st team and 2 2nd teams

We can go into playoff stats (similar to regular season) and more if you want but first just actually look into what each had done by age 30 (then respond to my actual opinion/info). Stats, accolades, longevity all go to Lebron and many of them quite easily. Sure stats don't tell the whole story but these are overwhelmingly in Lebron's favor.

Jeffy25
07-09-2015, 04:52 PM
Depends how he ages.

I think he's probably a safe bet for 3rd best all time, but he could start dealing with nagging injuries or retire early.


Right now he is around 5-8th range. I have him ahead of Bird and Kobe, but behind or next to Magic, Dream, Duncan, Shaq, Wilt, Kareem and Jordan

He could pass Shaq, Duncan, Dream, and Magic with another 2-4 years of his current play (with or without any more rings).

A few more rings, and 6-8 more years of 80% of his current play, and I think he starts fighting Jordan for the 1A/1B topic.

Muttman73
07-09-2015, 05:02 PM
He's already a shoe in for biggest douche bag ever, player wise top 5 maybe

Jtirado16
07-09-2015, 05:07 PM
Top 10 no doubt. But most likely top 5.

flea
07-09-2015, 05:08 PM
Yawn like I said, go look up the Top SF of all time thread if you want my views on Lebron's stats. They drop off in the playoffs, and then drop off even further when he's not playing the dregs of the East (which is pretty rare considering the East has been 3 deep at best over Lebron's entire career). The playoff moments, the elite teams taken down, etc. he has none. His memorable moments are the cramp game, treating his coach like the waterboy, messing the bed in his first 2 Finals, and beating the Indiana Pacers.

What about what Bird is better than Lebron at, though?

-Better shooter from everywhere
-Better post scorer from the low, mid, and high post
-Better passer from everywhere (inbounds, post, wings, outlets, on the drive)
-Better post defender
-Better help defender and double teamer
-Better playing passing lanes
-Better awareness (how many times does Lebron chuck a contested 3 or long 2 late in games? See Spurs game 6 where Bosh grabbed the rebound for an anecdote)
-Better at creative finishes in traffic
-Better roll/pop man
-Better p&r ballhandler
-Better offensive rebounder
-Better defensive rebounder

What is Lebron better at?

-Straight line-drives and beating his man in the no hand-check era
-Transition finishing
-On-ball defense (though rarely asked to carry his team there)
-Not getting called for offensive fouls or traveling
-Transition defense

That's about it. The big disparity in those stats is largely a result of having over a 7% difference in USG%. I am not a fan of 30+% USG players basically ever - generally it makes your offense predictable, it makes yone player exert too much effort on one end of the court, and it keeps your team out of rhythm.

Lebron has taken the mantle from Jordan and Kobe in their desire to pound the rock over and over and live or die by the ISO offense. Lots of fans like to see that. The difference with prime Lebron was his ISOs came with shooters spread around, instead of strongside clearouts. When he had to play with 2 real bigs and do strongside clearouts the results were, well, below 40% FG. I doubt Blatt wanted to run ISO offenses all year, but it's clear Lebron is only interested in scoring or picking up an assist. I value more than players who insist on winning only on their terms, especially when a guy like Bird actually won more.

Hawkeye15
07-09-2015, 05:18 PM
Yawn like I said, go look up the Top SF of all time thread if you want my views on Lebron's stats. They drop off in the playoffs, and then drop off even further when he's not playing the dregs of the East (which is pretty rare considering the East has been 3 deep at best over Lebron's entire career). The playoff moments, the elite teams taken down, etc. he has none. His memorable moments are the cramp game, treating his coach like the waterboy, messing the bed in his first 2 Finals, and beating the Indiana Pacers.

What about what Bird is better than Lebron at, though?

-Better shooter from everywhere
-Better post scorer from the low, mid, and high post
-Better passer from everywhere (inbounds, post, wings, outlets, on the drive)
-Better post defender
-Better help defender and double teamer
-Better playing passing lanes
-Better awareness (how many times does Lebron chuck a contested 3 or long 2 late in games? See Spurs game 6 where Bosh grabbed the rebound for an anecdote)
-Better at creative finishes in traffic
-Better roll/pop man
-Better p&r ballhandler
-Better offensive rebounder
-Better defensive rebounder

What is Lebron better at?

-Straight line-drives and beating his man in the no hand-check era
-Transition finishing
-On-ball defense (though rarely asked to carry his team there)
-Not getting called for offensive fouls or traveling
-Transition defense

That's about it. The big disparity in those stats is largely a result of having over a 7% difference in USG%. I am not a fan of 30+% USG players basically ever - generally it makes your offense predictable, it makes yone player exert too much effort on one end of the court, and it keeps your team out of rhythm.

Lebron has taken the mantle from Jordan and Kobe in their desire to pound the rock over and over and live or die by the ISO offense. Lots of fans like to see that. The difference with prime Lebron was his ISOs came with shooters spread around, instead of strongside clearouts. When he had to play with 2 real bigs and do strongside clearouts the results were, well, below 40% FG. I doubt Blatt wanted to run ISO offenses all year, but it's clear Lebron is only interested in scoring or picking up an assist. I value more than players who insist on winning only on their terms, especially when a guy like Bird actually won more.

haha, what? Just making up crap really. And half the stuff you listed Bird better at, he isn't.

You give Bird a lot of credit his rookie year. He was a 23 year old man. Bird was great, and I take his peak over a lot of guys, but LeBron has passed him. Bird's play dipped in the playoffs plenty of times. He was taken out of games far more than LeBron has ever been taken out by a defense. LeBron has 3 playoff runs that were better than anything Larry threw out there.

everyone can have an opinion. I can't imagine how much team success LeBron would have if he were given the talent Larry had.

FraziersKnicks
07-09-2015, 05:19 PM
Bird turned a crappy team (2nd worst record in the league) into the league's best record in his rooke year. In his sophomore year he took a still raw roster to a title. In 1984 he had one of the best postseasons ever (better than all of Lebron's) to carry another team that wasn't much without him. In 1986 he was a part of one of the best teams of all time.

This is highly debatable:

Bird (1983-84): 26.3 PER, 60.7 TS%, 4.7 WS, .236 WS/48, 10.2 BPM, 2.9 VORP
LeBron (2011-12): 30.3 PER, 57.6 TS%, 5.8 WS, .284 WS/48, 11.0 BPM, 3.2 VORP
LeBron (2012-13): 28.1 PER, 58.5 TS%, 5.2 WS, .260 WS/48, 10.2 BPM, 2.9 VORP

LeBron arguably has two postseason's that were more productive then Bird's best. If you also factor in playoff runs that didn't result in a championship but just focus solely on LeBron's production he has another 2 that eclipse Bird (2008-09: 14 games, 37.4 PER, 61.8 TS%, 4.8 WS, .399 WS/48, 18.2 BPM, 2.9 VORP and 2013-14: 20 games, 31.1 PER, 66.8 TS%, 4.3 WS, .270 WS/48, 10.4 BPM, 2.4 VORP).

FraziersKnicks
07-09-2015, 05:27 PM
:laugh2: c'mon Flea you were doing alright before that list...

Better at creative finishes :laugh2:

mngopher35
07-09-2015, 05:28 PM
Yawn like I said, go look up the Top SF of all time thread if you want my views on Lebron's stats. They drop off in the playoffs, and then drop off even further when he's not playing the dregs of the East (which is pretty rare considering the East has been 3 deep at best over Lebron's entire career). The playoff moments, the elite teams taken down, etc. he has none. His memorable moments are the cramp game, treating his coach like the waterboy, messing the bed in his first 2 Finals, and beating the Indiana Pacers.

What about what Bird is better than Lebron at, though?

-Better shooter from everywhere
-Better post scorer from the low, mid, and high post
-Better passer from everywhere (inbounds, post, wings, outlets, on the drive)
-Better post defender
-Better help defender and double teamer
-Better playing passing lanes
-Better awareness (how many times does Lebron chuck a contested 3 or long 2 late in games? See Spurs game 6 where Bosh grabbed the rebound for an anecdote)
-Better at creative finishes in traffic
-Better roll/pop man
-Better p&r ballhandler
-Better offensive rebounder
-Better defensive rebounder

What is Lebron better at?

-Straight line-drives and beating his man in the no hand-check era
-Transition finishing
-On-ball defense (though rarely asked to carry his team there)
-Not getting called for offensive fouls or traveling
-Transition defense

That's about it. The big disparity in those stats is largely a result of having over a 7% difference in USG%. I am not a fan of 30+% USG players basically ever - generally it makes your offense predictable, it makes yone player exert too much effort on one end of the court, and it keeps your team out of rhythm.

Lebron has taken the mantle from Jordan and Kobe in their desire to pound the rock over and over and live or die by the ISO offense. Lots of fans like to see that. The difference with prime Lebron was his ISOs came with shooters spread around, instead of strongside clearouts. When he had to play with 2 real bigs and do strongside clearouts the results were, well, below 40% FG. I doubt Blatt wanted to run ISO offenses all year, but it's clear Lebron is only interested in scoring or picking up an assist. I value more than players who insist on winning only on their terms, especially when a guy like Bird actually won more.

So once again you ignored my responses and points to just go off on another tangent of your opinions. I have seen your obvious bias in other threads so I can't say I am extremely surprised but cmon at least defend your statements a little bit.

Even with all the extra skills you have listed for scoring Lebron still put the ball in the hoop more often and more efficiently overall. Despite the better passing and IQ (which you used shot selection) Lebron has a much higher ast%, about the same TOV% and was more efficient from the field. You personally don't like isolation players which is fine but it doesn't change anything I have said about each player prior to age 30 and what they accomplished. Also generally with higher usage comes a drop in efficiency as I am sure you know, yet the efficiency stats were favoring Lebron as well as the volume stats.

Anyways you have brought this way off topic now. The point is at age 30 Lebron has done more in many ways than Bird had and I listed many of them above just to be ignored. Sure Bird was the more skilled player between the two which is what a lot of this post seems to try to say but that is ignoring the huge athletic gap between the two as well (which paired with his high IQ has helped Lebron a ton in becoming the player he is). I can argue KG (random choice can choose a skilled all time great big if you want) has tons of better skills than Shaq like you did above but that doesn't make him a better player, it's how those skills/athletecism/IQ etc. are used in combination to impact the game.

Hawkeye15
07-09-2015, 05:29 PM
:laugh2: c'mon Flea you were doing alright before that list...

Better at creative finishes :laugh2:

-bouncier hair

flea
07-09-2015, 05:31 PM
haha, what? Just making up crap really. And half the stuff you listed Bird better at, he isn't.

Uh why? A large part of why Michael is the GOAT was his finishing ability, which was on par with some of the better big men. Bird was an elite ballhandler for a forward and could dazzle in the paint. He had a floater with either hand and an array of runners and up-and-under moves.

Lebron probably had the better FG% at the rim if we had Bird's stats but a large part of that is the style of offenses he's always had and the era he plays in. He's not a very creative ballhandler and much more of a power finisher.

Fun fact: Lebron shot a combined 25.2 PPG on 40% from the field, 28% from 3, with 7.5 assists and 4.4 turnovers in the 2007, 2011, and 2015 Finals. I know that's cherrypicking the worst 3 Finals he had, but c'mon that's a statline for half the Finals he's ever played in.

Chronz
07-09-2015, 05:32 PM
So once again you ignored my responses and points to just go off on another tangent of your opinions. I have seen your obvious bias in other threads so I can't say I am extremely surprised but cmon at least defend your statements a little bit.

Even with all the extra skills you have listed for scoring Lebron still put the ball in the hoop more often and more efficiently overall. Despite the better passing and IQ (which you used shot selection) Lebron has a much higher ast%, about the same TOV% and was more efficient from the field. You personally don't like isolation players which is fine but it doesn't change anything I have said about each player prior to age 30 and what they accomplished. Also generally with higher usage comes a drop in efficiency as I am sure you know, yet the efficiency stats were favoring Lebron as well as the volume stats.

Anyways you have brought this way off topic now. The point is at age 30 Lebron has done more in many ways than Bird had and I listed many of them above just to be ignored. Sure Bird was the more skilled player between the two which is what a lot of this post seems to try to say but that is ignoring the huge athletic gap between the two as well (which paired with his high IQ has helped Lebron a ton in becoming the player he is). I can argue KG (random choice can choose a skilled all time great big if you want) has tons of better skills than Shaq like you did above but that doesn't make him a better player, it's how those skills/athletecism/IQ etc. are used in combination to impact the game.
KG is a great comp. Great at so many aspects of the game, yet at the end of the day, the guy with the dominant post scoring trait is the superior player. Less versatility defensively yet at his best could impact the game at an elite level on that end as well. Very little range yet still the better offensive option. Dominance matters more than skill, always have, always will.

Jeffy25
07-09-2015, 05:35 PM
Yawn like I said, go look up the Top SF of all time thread if you want my views on Lebron's stats. They drop off in the playoffs, and then drop off even further when he's not playing the dregs of the East (which is pretty rare considering the East has been 3 deep at best over Lebron's entire career). The playoff moments, the elite teams taken down, etc. he has none. His memorable moments are the cramp game, treating his coach like the waterboy, messing the bed in his first 2 Finals, and beating the Indiana Pacers.

What about what Bird is better than Lebron at, though?

-Better shooter from everywhere
-Better post scorer from the low, mid, and high post
-Better passer from everywhere (inbounds, post, wings, outlets, on the drive)
-Better post defender
-Better help defender and double teamer
-Better playing passing lanes
-Better awareness (how many times does Lebron chuck a contested 3 or long 2 late in games? See Spurs game 6 where Bosh grabbed the rebound for an anecdote)
-Better at creative finishes in traffic
-Better roll/pop man
-Better p&r ballhandler
-Better offensive rebounder
-Better defensive rebounder

What is Lebron better at?

-Straight line-drives and beating his man in the no hand-check era
-Transition finishing
-On-ball defense (though rarely asked to carry his team there)
-Not getting called for offensive fouls or traveling
-Transition defense

That's about it. The big disparity in those stats is largely a result of having over a 7% difference in USG%. I am not a fan of 30+% USG players basically ever - generally it makes your offense predictable, it makes yone player exert too much effort on one end of the court, and it keeps your team out of rhythm.

Lebron has taken the mantle from Jordan and Kobe in their desire to pound the rock over and over and live or die by the ISO offense. Lots of fans like to see that. The difference with prime Lebron was his ISOs came with shooters spread around, instead of strongside clearouts. When he had to play with 2 real bigs and do strongside clearouts the results were, well, below 40% FG. I doubt Blatt wanted to run ISO offenses all year, but it's clear Lebron is only interested in scoring or picking up an assist. I value more than players who insist on winning only on their terms, especially when a guy like Bird actually won more.

Bird vs LeBron?

Bird
34,443 MP
21,791 Points (24.3 PPG)
8974 TRB (10.0 RPG)
5695 Assits (6.3 APG)
23.5 PER
.564 TS%
145.8 WS

Playoffs
6886 MP
3897 Points (23.8 PPG)
1683 Rebounds (10.3 RPG)
1062 Assists (6.5 APG)
21.4 PER
.551 TS%
24.8 WS

LeBron
35,769 Minutes
24,913 Points (27.3 PPG)
6502 Rebounds (7.1 RPG)
6301 Assists (6.9 APG)
27.7 PER
.581 TS%
178.9 WS

LeBron playoffs
7561 Minutes
5020 Points (28.2 PPG)
1558 Rebounds (8.8 RPG)
1188 Assists (6.7 APG)
27.4 PER
.565 TS%
36.9 WS


And you think Bird was not only better, but better in the playoffs too?

Bird wasn't the better shooter from everywhere. Bird had more range, but didn't finish nearly as well as LeBron
Definitely wasn't a better post scorer
I see LeBron as a much better play maker. Bird was fine when he had to swing and create, but LeBron can literally be your point guard.
LeBron is easily the better defender when he wants to be



I say all of this, and growing up, Bird was my favorite player. I'm from Indiana, and he was my favorite. But LeBron is/was better. Even if LeBron isn't ahead of Bird all time for some, he easily will be as soon as this next season. He already has topped him in scoring and minutes and assists. When he creates a lead from him, it's going to make it too large of a gap to overcome.

Chronz
07-09-2015, 05:35 PM
Uh why? A large part of why Michael is the GOAT was his finishing ability, which was on par with some of the better big men. Bird was an elite ballhandler for a forward and could dazzle in the paint. He had a floater with either hand and an array of runners and up-and-under moves.

Lebron probably had the better FG% at the rim if we had Bird's stats but a large part of that is the style of offenses he's always had and the era he plays in. He's not a very creative ballhandler and much more of a power finisher.

Fun fact: Lebron shot a combined 25.2 PPG on 40% from the field, 28% from 3, with 7.5 assists and 4.4 turnovers in the 2007, 2011, and 2015 Finals. I know that's cherrypicking the worst 3 Finals he had, but c'mon that's a statline for half the Finals he's ever played in.

One of which he had no place in. Is Larry suppose to get more credit for sucking before then and watching his team lose well before they should have? Making the Finals is still an accomplishment.

You have a point about Brons playoff stats, the best we can do is account for strength of opposition. Ill see what I can rummage but again, very little changes in the H2H, Bird is on par, only he wasn't on par long enough. Durability and longevity will always be what prevent him from attaining the standard of greatness set forth by his peers.

KnicksorBust
07-09-2015, 05:35 PM
Is it possible for Lebron to be thee GOAT?

Do you covet a finals run in which he underachieved for a series more than someone quitting the game altogether amidst his prime and recharching his battery in the process?

MJ is the best at his peak, but peak isn't all that matters. KAJ is the 2nd GOAT imo because of his longevity, not because I ever felt he was better than Wilt at his best.

That's what I am asking you. Can Bron still be thee GOAT?

Hawkeye15
07-09-2015, 05:35 PM
Uh why? A large part of why Michael is the GOAT was his finishing ability, which was on par with some of the better big men. Bird was an elite ballhandler for a forward and could dazzle in the paint. He had a floater with either hand and an array of runners and up-and-under moves.
.

it's completely subjective and impossible to prove is why it's stupid to bring up. Guess what, LeBron doesn't NEED to be a creative finisher, he goes straight through guys. I would love to see Bird driving the paint in today's walled off paint compared to the wide open lanes in the 80's

flea
07-09-2015, 05:36 PM
Lol we're back to the old argument for FG% and TS% that goes on everywhere for people who didn't watch certain players. Answer these:

- Shaq had huge FG%s but he was useless outside of 5 feet. Does that mean he's more elite offensively than Hakeem who had range out to 15?
- Dirk has mediocre FG% but is unquestionably one of the elite shooters ever (decent TS% because of FTA). Is he a worse offensive player than Lebron?
- Lebron put up some pointless FG% in the 2014 Finals beatdown, did he play worse in 2015 Finals than he did in 2014?

WS and crude efficiency metrics don't tell the whole story, especially for guys in the 80s like Bird whose range extended further than most players. Nowadays the game is entirely built on 3s and rim runs because of the rules, but that wasn't always so. Having an elite shooter taking deep 2s made your team a lot better than a collection of post players.

If you disagree with any of that, please move to Reddit. They love to J/O to Lebron and Shaq efficiency lines, completely ignoring the team impact.

Hawkeye15
07-09-2015, 05:36 PM
funny thing is, I think LeBron would have been better in the 80's than he is now, and Bird would be better now than he was in the 80's.

Hawkeye15
07-09-2015, 05:38 PM
Lol we're back to the old argument for FG% and TS% that goes on everywhere for people who didn't watch certain players. Answer these:

- Shaq had huge FG%s but he was useless outside of 5 feet. Does that mean he's more elite offensively than Hakeem who had range out to 15?
- Dirk has mediocre FG% but is unquestionably one of the elite shooters ever (decent TS% because of FTA). Is he a worse offensive player than Lebron?
- Lebron put up some pointless FG% in the 2014 Finals beatdown, did he play worse in 2015 Finals than he did in 2014?

WS and crude efficiency metrics don't tell the whole story, especially for guys in the 80s like Bird whose range extended further than most players. Nowadays the game is entirely built on 3s and rim runs because of the rules, but that wasn't always so. Having an elite shooter taking deep 2s made your team a lot better than a collection of post players.

If you disagree with any of that, please move to Reddit. They love to J/O to Lebron and Shaq efficiency lines, completely ignoring the team impact.

for his team, hell yes. Shaq opened up the floor for his teammates like the red sea.

flea
07-09-2015, 05:40 PM
it's completely subjective and impossible to prove is why it's stupid to bring up. Guess what, LeBron doesn't NEED to be a creative finisher, he goes straight through guys. I would love to see Bird driving the paint in today's walled off paint compared to the wide open lanes in the 80's

Does anyone disagree that Michael was a more creative finisher than Lebron? I doubt it. Ballhandling in tight spaces/touch is a skill we can observe. We might not measure it as well on the stat sheet but we can see it. Bird's FG% is lower than Lebron's and their 3 PT% is almost comparable - nobody in their right mind would say Lebron is as good of a shooter (or even anywhere near Bird's league).

Disagree if you want, but it's a skill and one that some of the greats exhibited (Dr. J, Karl Malone, Drexler, Wilkins, in addition to MJ).

flea
07-09-2015, 05:42 PM
for his team, hell yes. Shaq opened up the floor for his teammates like the red sea.

Totally disagree. Any good offensive player opens up shooters, but Shaq was a liablity late in games, when your team was in the bonus, and if you had a skilled big man to slow him down. Guess people forget that he was around for a long time putting up stats before he played with the best 2 SGs in the game at their time.

Played Hakeem in the Finals even, with just as much talent. Put up his stats, got swept.

Hawkeye15
07-09-2015, 05:44 PM
Totally disagree. Any good offensive player opens up shooters, but Shaq was a liablity late in games, when your team was in the bonus, and if you had a skilled big man to slow him down. Guess people forget that he was around for a long time putting up stats before he played with the best 2 SGs in the game at their time.

Played Hakeem in the Finals even, with just as much talent. Put up his stats, got swept.

peak Dream versus baby Shaq? Who put up huge numbers in the series btw? ok

Hawkeye15
07-09-2015, 05:45 PM
Does anyone disagree that Michael was a more creative finisher than Lebron? I doubt it. Ballhandling in tight spaces/touch is a skill we can observe. We might not measure it as well on the stat sheet but we can see it. Bird's FG% is lower than Lebron's and their 3 PT% is almost comparable - nobody in their right mind would say Lebron is as good of a shooter (or even anywhere near Bird's league).

Disagree if you want, but it's a skill and one that some of the greats exhibited (Dr. J, Karl Malone, Drexler, Wilkins, in addition to MJ).

who said LeBron is a better shooter? He is a more efficient scorer, that can't be debated. But not a better shooter.

flea
07-09-2015, 05:49 PM
peak Dream versus baby Shaq? Who put up huge numbers in the series btw? ok

Hey Duncan swept Shaq at "baby Duncan" age. Had Robinson to help with him, to be sure, but Duncan was far and away the best player that series and playoffs. Rest of the team wasn't much.

Chronz
07-09-2015, 06:38 PM
Lol we're back to the old argument for FG% and TS% that goes on everywhere for people who didn't watch certain players. Answer these:

- Shaq had huge FG%s but he was useless outside of 5 feet. Does that mean he's more elite offensively than Hakeem who had range out to 15?
- Dirk has mediocre FG% but is unquestionably one of the elite shooters ever (decent TS% because of FTA). Is he a worse offensive player than Lebron?
- Lebron put up some pointless FG% in the 2014 Finals beatdown, did he play worse in 2015 Finals than he did in 2014?

WS and crude efficiency metrics don't tell the whole story, especially for guys in the 80s like Bird whose range extended further than most players. Nowadays the game is entirely built on 3s and rim runs because of the rules, but that wasn't always so. Having an elite shooter taking deep 2s made your team a lot better than a collection of post players.

If you disagree with any of that, please move to Reddit. They love to J/O to Lebron and Shaq efficiency lines, completely ignoring the team impact.
Shaq was easily the better offensive player. He certainly made offenses elite to a higher degree, seemed to me he had a greater influence on his teammates efficiency as well, but that could partly be due to his superior passing/playmaking more than anything. Either way, it all revolved around the fact that he required CONSTANT attention in the paint.

Not seeing how we're ignoring team impact when we're just disagreeing what your subjective take on them. None of us have to apologize for having more than conjecture at our disposal.

Chronz
07-09-2015, 06:45 PM
Totally disagree. Any good offensive player opens up shooters, but Shaq was a liablity late in games, when your team was in the bonus, and if you had a skilled big man to slow him down. Guess people forget that he was around for a long time putting up stats before he played with the best 2 SGs in the game at their time.

Played Hakeem in the Finals even, with just as much talent. Put up his stats, got swept.

Gross simplification. Not every player opens up the game the way Shaq did, even less who understand the passing angles. Hell it took Hakeem YEARS to master the art of passing out of doubles so he was a liability far longer throughout his career. Him being around a long time doesn't change the fact that he still WON MORE than Dream so I dont get that point, as if we didn't know when Shaq started his career.

mngopher35
07-09-2015, 06:53 PM
So thinking about one of my earlier posts I said MJ, Shaq, Wilt, Lebron, Kaj are probably the best players statistically (lets say we are looking at 10 best years reg and playoffs). Would people agree with that statement or am I forgetting people? Not ranking overall as players, just statistical top 5 players.

flea
07-09-2015, 07:05 PM
Shaq was easily the better offensive player.

For the balance of their careers, perhaps. But once Hakeem became a polished 2-way player? I have trouble agreeing to that, at least that it was "easily" Shaq. Here are some playoff stats for each one's 6 consecutive best years:

Shaq (98-03; 91 games): 29.3/13.7/3.0 with 4.7 offensive boards, 3 turnovers, and 2.5 blocks on 55% FG/53% FT

Dream (91-97; 84 games): 27.5/11.2/4.1 with 2.7 offensive boards, 3.3 turnovers, 3.3 blocks, and 1.7 steals on 53% FG/75% FT

Dream was definitely more versatile and more reliable offensively once in that peak. That with defense is largely why I've got him over Shaq. It's close IMO but "easily" is way too big a qualifier for 2 of the better offensive big men to play.

Jeffy25
07-09-2015, 07:09 PM
Lol we're back to the old argument for FG% and TS% that goes on everywhere for people who didn't watch certain players. Answer these:

- Shaq had huge FG%s but he was useless outside of 5 feet. Does that mean he's more elite offensively than Hakeem who had range out to 15?
- Dirk has mediocre FG% but is unquestionably one of the elite shooters ever (decent TS% because of FTA). Is he a worse offensive player than Lebron?
- Lebron put up some pointless FG% in the 2014 Finals beatdown, did he play worse in 2015 Finals than he did in 2014?


To answer.


It doesn't matter how you score, it's the rate in which you score on your opportunities.

Sure, Shaq scored from closer, and the Dream had the ability to score from a greater distance. But that didn't make scoring any harder for Shaq. He was capable of scoring at a more efficient rate per opportunity, and that is what matters.

How many points per opportunity?


WS and crude efficiency metrics don't tell the whole story, especially for guys in the 80s like Bird whose range extended further than most players. Nowadays the game is entirely built on 3s and rim runs because of the rules, but that wasn't always so. Having an elite shooter taking deep 2s made your team a lot better than a collection of post players.
Range is valuable, but what good is that range if you aren't able to create more scoring because of it?

Bird had to have range because he wasn't a great finisher close (though good - better than most). Having a good range created more scoring opportunities for him, which is why he became such a great player.

It doesn't matter how you score, what matters is how often you score.


If you disagree with any of that, please move to Reddit. They love to J/O to Lebron and Shaq efficiency lines, completely ignoring the team impact.

Shaq scoring 35 from 5 and closer opens up a ton of possibilities for his team, because that creates additional room for his 4 team mates to run around and try to get open.

You gotta get out of Dreams way. The Dream being able to have range is great for him, but I don't know that there is a positive team impact because he has more range. It just makes him harder to defend because you don't know what he'll do. Shaq, he's hard to defend because he can go through you even though you know what he's gonna do.

Chronz
07-09-2015, 07:15 PM
For the balance of their careers, perhaps. But once Hakeem became a polished 2-way player? I have trouble agreeing to that, at least that it was "easily" Shaq. Here are some playoff stats for each one's 6 consecutive best years:

Shaq (98-03; 91 games): 29.3/13.7/3.0 with 4.7 offensive boards, 3 turnovers, and 2.5 blocks on 55% FG/53% FT

Dream (91-97; 84 games): 27.5/11.2/4.1 with 2.7 offensive boards, 3.3 turnovers, 3.3 blocks, and 1.7 steals on 53% FG/75% FT

Dream was definitely more versatile and more reliable offensively once in that peak. That with defense is largely why I've got him over Shaq. It's close IMO but "easily" is way too big a qualifier for 2 of the better offensive big men to play.

Ill dissect later but those raw numbers still favor Shaq quite easily, especially given the offensive rebounding and lack of turnovers despite the superior floor game. Im not including defense here, just offense. Shaq EASILY crushes him there though it gets close when Dream finally learns to embrace the passing game. Despite that range, zones actually flustered Dream more than they did Shaq IMO and its due to the difference in athletic ability and how they read doubles.

Nothing more reliable about Dream offensively. Not in this comparison.

flea
07-09-2015, 07:19 PM
Having range doesn't help your team? WTF since when? Basketball is a team sport, not every FG is created equally and points don't exist in a vaccuum. Lebron's Heat teams were devastating because nearly everyone on the court had range on their jumpshot.

There's a reason Dirk and Karl Malone are 2 of the best roll men ever and Shaq isn't. There's a reason that a scoring guard with mediocre athleticism (by NBA standards) and without a jumpshot can put up high 40s FG% with Tim Duncan. There's a reason Dirk's teams sit atop the best offensive teams in the league every year regardless of his teammates and it has everything to do with his range. There's a reason everyone wanted Aldridge this offseason and it has nothing to do with his defense, rebounding, or finishing ability.

flea
07-09-2015, 07:44 PM
Despite that range, zones actually flustered Dream more than they did Shaq IMO and its due to the difference in athletic ability and how they read doubles

Dream was 38 by the time zone defenses were allowed, and they didn't really come into vogue until a few years later when the league clarified the rules to keep defenders out of the paint. IMO that effected Shaq's game a lot, he was on the wrong side of 30 and the wrong side of cheeseburger intake for sure but his numbers and role got drastically reduced post 2004.

I think Dream would have been fine in zone era, he had good handles and was a solid passer always who became a good one in his prime. The black hole stuff gets overplayed IMO with guys like him and McHale.


Nothing more reliable about Dream offensively. Not in this comparison.

Hack-a-Shaq?

Jeffy25
07-09-2015, 07:49 PM
Having range doesn't help your team? WTF since when? Basketball is a team sport, not every FG is created equally and points don't exist in a vaccuum. Lebron's Heat teams were devastating because nearly everyone on the court had range on their jumpshot.

There's a reason Dirk and Karl Malone are 2 of the best roll men ever and Shaq isn't. There's a reason that a scoring guard with mediocre athleticism (by NBA standards) and without a jumpshot can put up high 40s FG% with Tim Duncan. There's a reason Dirk's teams sit atop the best offensive teams in the league every year regardless of his teammates and it has everything to do with his range. There's a reason everyone wanted Aldridge this offseason and it has nothing to do with his defense, rebounding, or finishing ability.

We are talking two very specific, very explosive players who dominated like nobody else.

But if I'm a wing player, and I know shaq isn't coming more than 5 feet from the basket, and my guy goes to double him.....I know I can stay far away and get an open shot.

That's better than dream bouncing from free throw line to basket to base line and drawing his double.

As a team mate, I can get more separation by having my big be more stationary and scoring through an opponent rather than a mobile one who wants to take you one on one.

Chronz
07-09-2015, 08:02 PM
Dream was 38 by the time zone defenses were allowed, and they didn't really come into vogue until a few years later when the league clarified the rules to keep defenders out of the paint. IMO that effected Shaq's game a lot, he was on the wrong side of 30 and the wrong side of cheeseburger intake for sure but his numbers and role got drastically reduced post 2004.

I think Dream would have been fine in zone era, he had good handles and was a solid passer always who became a good one in his prime. The black hole stuff gets overplayed IMO with guys like him and McHale.



Hack-a-Shaq?

I wasnt talking about legalized zones, just the zones that were suppose to be illegal but were allowed or hidden best by certain teams. Also how Dream admits to zones bothering him more than NBA defenses whereas when zones were allowed fully Shaq put up the same numbers regardless. Not seeing what your getting at with post 2004 considering most bigmen slipped once they reached that age.

Dont know about McHale but in Dreams case its not an exaggeration, dude really held his offense back with his singular mindset. It got to the point where people within the organization began to wonder if he was overrated because the team played so freely without him during their dramatic period. Obviously they were better with him but it was due to his defense, offensively, his presence was barely missed. He wasn't a playmaker early on, it got to the point where they had (IIRC) McCray run the offense when they lost that cokehead whos name escapes me right now.

Its funny, Hack-a-shaq is actually more efficient for his team than Dream was for much of his career, says alot when you have to zone in on a few instances where the big fella had a tendency to raise his game whereas the other guy has entire portions of his career where he doesnt come close. Ill take the superior offense all game vs a guy who finally becomes comparable in certain minute situations.

Hack-a-Shaq got teams into the penalty early and allowed his defense to get set, not to mention offensive rebounds still occur at the FT line. Overall you're gonna have to say more than hack-a-shaq, they hacked Wilt too, both were superior to Dream offensively. At his best, Dream compares to anyone, sadly by the time his offense reached goat levels, his defense had dwindled so it was a short window IMO

Demon11
07-10-2015, 06:10 AM
Simple enough. Lebron's ceiling is the greatest player of all time. Will he make that? It remains to be seen. I have watched basketball for years, and there is not one player (Besides shaq on offense, but honestly, Lebron is like Shaq in all areas of the game) who has ever been in the NBA who brings that much impact to the game. I feel like i'm taking crazy pills sometimes when i see people talk about him. He is literally the game when he is playing. He honestly is superman. We will see what he does with Cleveland. If he keeps going at this pace, and he starts getting lucky with his team, like Kobe and MJ have their entire careers, he will be goat. His ceiling is not below Michael, unless you are overrating Michael because of his legacy.