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latinofire21
07-04-2015, 09:38 AM
Its pretty well known around the league that Toronto is not a free agent destination. Many thought with their recent success that if any year would allow them to lure a free agent it would be this year. Lamarcus Aldridge was rumored to be setting a meeting with them during free agency and it never happened. They did lure a free agent in Demarr Carroll but many believe he was extremely overpaid. Losing Amir Johnson wont hurt since he was injury prone. I guess where I am going with this is what is the next step for Toronto?

I know Masai is a good GM but he has a serious project underway. With a severely flawed roster and a lot of financial flexibility coming soon via the new TV deal for the NBA does he have a firesale and sell off the team to start from scratch. I think at this point its pretty evident that the Raptors overachieved for the last 2 years and were exposed in the playoffs. I think its time to rip off the bandaid and start from scratch.

It really depends on what the owner wants to do though. If he is satisfied with a great regular season and a first round exit year in and year out then maybe he would prefer to keep this team intact. It is much better than what Raptor fans have been used too since the beginning of the franchise.

If I were Masai I would probably try to develop the team via the Euro Leagues. Try and find the talent in those leagues and develop the players via the D League and the own roster spots moving forward. Adopt a system similar to San Antonio's which would allow a lot of these Euro players to flourish and moving forward I would strive for building within versus trying to land free agents because it simply can't be done in Toronto.

Toronto is a very nice city I enjoyed my stay there but to me it feels like a destination that many Euro players would vastly prefer versus American players who have grown up in the neighboring country and really don't want to cross borders.

With basketball in general becoming more competitive around the world I don't think its impossible to build a roster pulling players from all the other leagues to compete against the top NBA teams today.

I don't think Derozan or Lowry are the players you want leading this team moving forward. I think you should ship them out and just keep Val.

That's what I would do what do you think you would do if you could run the Raptors?

Sly Guy
07-04-2015, 12:06 PM
*they......we don't have 'a' owner, we have 2 telecoms who own the team.

And euro is trash. We've been doing that for years. It's only net us sub-standard players, and big men who don't play big [save jonas, but the jury is still out on what kind of player he'll be anyway].

You are right tho, the team is at a crossroads, we have some talent and some pieces, but no solid direction currently. I'm not in the camp of tearing the whole thing down though.

RAPS424
07-04-2015, 12:29 PM
Btw.. I don't feel like responding to all your nonsense, but , maybe, just maybe do a minimal amount of research before u post something , LMA DID meet with the raps .. It's the lowly Knicks team that he cancelled on !!

General manager Masai Ujiri and company impressed Aldridge in their meeting, according to a report from David Aldridge of NBA.com.

He said , the Raptors are on the rise, but he's looking for a team on the cusp

pebloemer
07-04-2015, 12:30 PM
The meeting with Aldridge did happen, not sure where you are getting your information.

Many in the fan base believe the team should tear down and rebuild through the draft. Other believe coaching changes are necessary. Others feel if we can stay the course, build on continuity and culture we increase our attractiveness to free agents. A meeting with Aldridge shows some progress in that area (years prior the Raptors would never get a meeting with a high profile FA).

American players seem to really enjoy being in Toronto. If there are superior Euro options, then fine, but I think the nationality argument is mute. All players don't like playing for losing franchises.

aman_13
07-04-2015, 12:34 PM
Lol Aldridge did meet with the Raps and was impressed. He says they are an up and comer. He canceled with the Knicks. Nice try.

GiantsSwaGG
07-04-2015, 01:02 PM
They have to rebuild, they won't be contending for a championship

bucketss
07-04-2015, 01:29 PM
he met with toronto and said they did "well". did he meet with ny?

Jamiecballer
07-04-2015, 01:46 PM
Its pretty well known around the league that Toronto is not a free agent destination. Many thought with their recent success that if any year would allow them to lure a free agent it would be this year. Lamarcus Aldridge was rumored to be setting a meeting with them during free agency and it never happened. They did lure a free agent in Demarr Carroll but many believe he was extremely overpaid. Losing Amir Johnson wont hurt since he was injury prone. I guess where I am going with this is what is the next step for Toronto?

I know Masai is a good GM but he has a serious project underway. With a severely flawed roster and a lot of financial flexibility coming soon via the new TV deal for the NBA does he have a firesale and sell off the team to start from scratch. I think at this point its pretty evident that the Raptors overachieved for the last 2 years and were exposed in the playoffs. I think its time to rip off the bandaid and start from scratch.

It really depends on what the owner wants to do though. If he is satisfied with a great regular season and a first round exit year in and year out then maybe he would prefer to keep this team intact. It is much better than what Raptor fans have been used too since the beginning of the franchise.

If I were Masai I would probably try to develop the team via the Euro Leagues. Try and find the talent in those leagues and develop the players via the D League and the own roster spots moving forward. Adopt a system similar to San Antonio's which would allow a lot of these Euro players to flourish and moving forward I would strive for building within versus trying to land free agents because it simply can't be done in Toronto.

Toronto is a very nice city I enjoyed my stay there but to me it feels like a destination that many Euro players would vastly prefer versus American players who have grown up in the neighboring country and really don't want to cross borders.

With basketball in general becoming more competitive around the world I don't think its impossible to build a roster pulling players from all the other leagues to compete against the top NBA teams today.

I don't think Derozan or Lowry are the players you want leading this team moving forward. I think you should ship them out and just keep Val.

That's what I would do what do you think you would do if you could run the Raptors?
For a troll post there is a lot of unfortunate truth. As long as L. Williams doesn't return there is more room to grow here just not title contender type growth.

Legitimate
07-04-2015, 02:00 PM
lol new york fans really trying to hate on the raps? i'm really gonna love that lottery pick via new york this year :D

Minimal
07-04-2015, 02:14 PM
Raps should get rid of DeRozan, simple as that, they will never win with him on the team. They should rebuild around Lowry & Valanciunas. Bring a good effective wing, thats gonna take the scoring part of Lowry and utilise Val more. Valanciunas has .572 FG%, yet Raps rely on Lowry and Derozan who both shoot like .410. They are playing stupid, innefective basketball. Just to think about it, Valanciunas had a higher PER than both all star starter Lowry and DeRozan last year.

Eagles4Lyfe
07-04-2015, 02:18 PM
Why would we need to rebuild when the Knicks are doing it for us lmaooo

Sadds The Gr8
07-04-2015, 02:19 PM
Why would we need to rebuild when the Knicks are doing it for us lmaooo

lol this

knickfan371
07-04-2015, 02:34 PM
The raptors really are bad the knicks pick is not going to be as low as people think trust me Espn are the clowns that keep feeding people foolishness.

KnickNyKnick
07-04-2015, 02:38 PM
Toronto will not compete for another 5-6 years the way it looks. Even if they get a lotto pick next year from the Knicks, (which is looking slimmer by the day), it will just keep them as a 1st round exit or a non playoff team for a looong time. Lowry and Derozan are gone as they already know this franchise needs divine intervention to even see a finals series.

Once that happens, its draft / D league era for the raps. and that takes 5/6 years to even start battling for 8th.

whats next for toronto? probably moving the franchise from toronto to atleast give them a chance.

OA SLAY
07-04-2015, 02:40 PM
Should definitely trade Demar while value is at its peak.
Between him and Lowry it is a very ineffective bad shooting back court.
Too unreliable when they're in slumps.
Package him and Ross for some shooters and big men and give Jonas the keys to see what you have.

BHF
07-04-2015, 02:41 PM
Why would we need to rebuild when the Knicks are doing it for us lmaooo

this

Ty Fast
07-04-2015, 02:47 PM
LA may have snubbed TO but he also snubbed the Lakers and Knicks.

Gander13SM
07-04-2015, 02:50 PM
I feel like they should be making a few trades this year. One of which has to include either Lowry or DeMar.

bucketss
07-04-2015, 02:57 PM
Why would we need to rebuild when the Knicks are doing it for us lmaooo

lmao almost fell off my chair.

latinofire21
07-04-2015, 03:05 PM
Its hard to really compare the Knicks and the Raptors. I asked a legitimate question about Toronto. The Knicks cant even tank right. They need a lot of help before anything. With that being said they even picked up some tier 2 options. Affalo and Robin Lopez are better net catches then Demarr Carroll and Bismack Biyombo. I missed that memo with Aldridge but he even went to San Antonio to his hometown state to compete. Again using the nationality argument here. He spurned everyone but as well as his interview went with Toronto and as badly as his interview went with the Lakers he me with the Lakers a second time... Adds to my argument. I think there are solid players that could fit a half court style of play similar to the Spurs that can be had at bargain prices from the Euro Leagues. Pablo Prigioni has played well in his limited time in the NBA. You can definitely build a team with some of the talent in Europe and compete.

I just don't ever see you getting a superstar via free agency. Wiggins might be your best chance but he will probably chase the money and extra years to stay in Minnesota now that he has Towns with him.

akesh99
07-04-2015, 04:11 PM
Toronto will not compete for another 5-6 years the way it looks. Even if they get a lotto pick next year from the Knicks, (which is looking slimmer by the day), it will just keep them as a 1st round exit or a non playoff team for a looong time. Lowry and Derozan are gone as they already know this franchise needs divine intervention to even see a finals series.

Once that happens, its draft / D league era for the raps. and that takes 5/6 years to even start battling for 8th.

whats next for toronto? probably moving the franchise from toronto to atleast give them a chance.

lolll so considering the knicks ARE CURRENTLY in the draft/d league era + we got your 1st pick, where does that leave you guys? Stop hating dude, you sound stupid.

AstonMartin34
07-04-2015, 04:26 PM
Why would we need to rebuild when the Knicks are doing it for us lmaooo

Bahah

I literally spat out my drink.

Necrosis
07-04-2015, 04:59 PM
Its hard to really compare the Knicks and the Raptors. I asked a legitimate question about Toronto. The Knicks cant even tank right. They need a lot of help before anything. With that being said they even picked up some tier 2 options. Affalo and Robin Lopez are better net catches then Demarr Carroll and Bismack Biyombo. I missed that memo with Aldridge but he even went to San Antonio to his hometown state to compete. Again using the nationality argument here. He spurned everyone but as well as his interview went with Toronto and as badly as his interview went with the Lakers he me with the Lakers a second time... Adds to my argument. I think there are solid players that could fit a half court style of play similar to the Spurs that can be had at bargain prices from the Euro Leagues. Pablo Prigioni has played well in his limited time in the NBA. You can definitely build a team with some of the talent in Europe and compete.

I just don't ever see you getting a superstar via free agency. Wiggins might be your best chance but he will probably chase the money and extra years to stay in Minnesota now that he has Towns with him.

Wait.. aren't you that dude who said New york would be better then TO and the knicks had a better roster then the 54 win team, hardaway was the second coming...

lol.

Carroll has the most impact, I like AA, he is a role player, not a starter, Carroll is a legit starting 3. His advanced stats are excellent and he is one of the few lockdown defenders in the league.

I like lopez, but would rather bismack because I think he has upside, I liked him in the JV draft. Lopez is a better player however.

The knicks will be trash again, they are rebuilding, that's expected, the raptors will be better then last year, they have only gotten better, with JV getting older and a legit three man. Demar will only improve etc. We have a ton of young guys in Bebe, cobaclo, wright, JV, ross with the Knicks pick next year, and our own. Our GM is a lot better then your's, he is likely top 5 in the NBA, he collects assets, loves to have youth tucked away (players in europe, got his own d league team), doesn't trade picks, trades for picks whenever possible.

Legitimate
07-04-2015, 05:23 PM
this happens every damn summer knick fans hating on the raps and claiming they will be better than us,, just because they made it out the 2nd round once in the past 15 years doesn't make them better than us..we choked in playoffs but eh atleast we got lots of assests and are in the playoffs every year unlike the knicks

latinofire21
07-04-2015, 11:07 PM
this happens every damn summer knick fans hating on the raps and claiming they will be better than us,, just because they made it out the 2nd round once in the past 15 years doesn't make them better than us..we choked in playoffs but eh atleast we got lots of assests and are in the playoffs every year unlike the knicks

It really isn't hate and I haven't said the Knicks are better than the Raptors this year. The Knicks are doing it right for once and just rebuilding. They aren't looking for a fast fix. I don't like that they didn't finish the tank right but hey it is what it is.

This is about the Raptors though. So lets not derail the obvious. They have pieces that don't fit together and they were exposed pretty bad in the playoffs. If they really commit to the core of Lowry/Derozan/Val they wont go anywhere.

I think the problem really comes down to what Masai thinks he can get for them. With the new CBA and everyone signing shorter termed deals trading one of those pieces you have for a couple years may not even be worth it for a 1 year rental. I really am not sure what I would do if I were you guys but I know that if the end goal is to win a championship I would be looking to move Lowry and Derozan for pieces and assets that fit Toronto.

If your end goal is just to stay competitive, make the playoffs, and just stay relevant first round exits than there may not be any change to the roster. We are all fans here but if anyone thinks another year under the belt of the derozan/lowry combination will be better for the team I think your just messing with fools gold. Derozan needs to learn how to shoot and be more efficient with his shot selections if he wants to be a prominent 2 guard in the league. Lowry is a supporting piece and cant be used as the main piece. Hes never been that guy and never will be that guy. Not really sure what you can get for Lowry now anyways so your probably stuck with him.

bucketss
07-04-2015, 11:38 PM
It really isn't hate and I haven't said the Knicks are better than the Raptors this year. The Knicks are doing it right for once and just rebuilding. They aren't looking for a fast fix. I don't like that they didn't finish the tank right but hey it is what it is.

This is about the Raptors though. So lets not derail the obvious. They have pieces that don't fit together and they were exposed pretty bad in the playoffs. If they really commit to the core of Lowry/Derozan/Val they wont go anywhere.

I think the problem really comes down to what Masai thinks he can get for them. With the new CBA and everyone signing shorter termed deals trading one of those pieces you have for a couple years may not even be worth it for a 1 year rental. I really am not sure what I would do if I were you guys but I know that if the end goal is to win a championship I would be looking to move Lowry and Derozan for pieces and assets that fit Toronto.

If your end goal is just to stay competitive, make the playoffs, and just stay relevant first round exits than there may not be any change to the roster. We are all fans here but if anyone thinks another year under the belt of the derozan/lowry combination will be better for the team I think your just messing with fools gold. Derozan needs to learn how to shoot and be more efficient with his shot selections if he wants to be a prominent 2 guard in the league. Lowry is a supporting piece and cant be used as the main piece. Hes never been that guy and never will be that guy. Not really sure what you can get for Lowry now anyways so your probably stuck with him.

probably to the knicks for a first rounder.

Crackadalic
07-04-2015, 11:54 PM
Raps are probably gonna get a late lottery pick from us so its not a huge deal seeing as next years draft class isn't as strong after the top 7 from what I see

Back to the question. They should have tank for Wiggins when they had the chance. They do play a lot of low ig basketball and I don't like how DD plays at all. Trade him and the Raps are in good shape

Cal827
07-05-2015, 12:05 AM
To be fair, Latinofire's thread is something that us Raptor fans have been debating over the past little bit, so I don't think he's trying to bait :laugh2:

Honestly, I would prefer if we just blew everything up, but I'm worried that Ujiri has the money hungry ownership in his ear.

For the people that don't know, the Raptors, Leafs, TFC, and Marlies are all owned by one organization: the MLSE. MLSE is roughly 40% owned by Rogers and Bell, the two biggest communication/media organizations in Canada. Unfortunately, where a single owner might understand and sign off on the process of rebuilding, the MLSE might be trying to hold off on it, possibly because of the other teams they own.

The Maple Leafs appeared to have finally been allowed to start a full rebuild, as they are in the process of trading away stars... Now they'll always draw fans (like the Knicks in the NBA), but MLSE will still likely not see as large of an annual profit from them for the next few years.

The Raptors, although beaten in the past two playoffs (and flat out embarrassed this season :laugh2: ), might be who they're relying on to make up the revenue. In Toronto, the price of tickets to a game have almost doubled over the past few seasons. If the Raptors start losing again (which would happen in the proper rebuild), then MLSE would have an extremely hard time justifying the ticket prices staying where they are, and since the Raptors are nowhere near as established as the Leafs are here, there's a good chance that there would be some empty seats, if the team doesn't at least make the playoffs (even if it's a quick end). The Carroll signing was pretty bad (I know he's a good defender, but I wouldn't pay a guy with those numbers 15 million a freaking season), but it should be enough to ensure that we make the playoffs next season as well. Perhaps they also go after a star player who's on the trade block to bolster the team, but as a Raptor fan, this team appears to be bound for a second round appearance at its peak. Also including that we're the hosts of the All Star game this season, I think the MLSE will sign off on something that at least gets us in the playoffs. And the signings appear to at least ensure the playoff appearance (Don't think they're 8 teams in the East better than Toronto)

At this point, I think I'm looking to what happens in 2016. Derozan wants a max deal; I think we are more likely to trade him at the deadline than in the off-season. Also will have to see what draft picks we are going to have (both ours and New York's).

bucketss
07-05-2015, 12:16 AM
Raps are probably gonna get a late lottery pick from us so its not a huge deal seeing as next years draft class isn't as strong after the top 7 from what I see

Back to the question. They should have tank for Wiggins when they had the chance. They do play a lot of low ig basketball and I don't like how DD plays at all. Trade him and the Raps are in good shape

honestly, the knicks barley improved, and with the east getting stronger i don't think that pick will be very late.

KnickNyKnick
07-05-2015, 02:51 AM
lolll so considering the knicks ARE CURRENTLY in the draft/d league era + we got your 1st pick, where does that leave you guys? Stop hating dude, you sound stupid.

as a matter a fact the knicks ARE at the draft/d league era/FA its the correct way to rebuild. I dont see your point in bringing in another team into this thread, lets re-evaluate whos "hating" here... but Knicks will be ahead of the rebuilding game in the east while the raps will realize they need to dump it all like we are late in the game.

The team as constructed fails in the post season, only a player and system change will fix that. but since they did well in the regular season they will try and let it flow this way for a while. but it wont work until its torn down.

so the raps are going to compete for the next 4/5 years? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHH!

bucketss
07-05-2015, 04:26 AM
as a matter a fact the knicks ARE at the draft/d league era/FA its the correct way to rebuild. I dont see your point in bringing in another team into this thread, lets re-evaluate whos "hating" here... but Knicks will be ahead of the rebuilding game in the east while the raps will realize they need to dump it all like we are late in the game.

The team as constructed fails in the post season, only a player and system change will fix that. but since they did well in the regular season they will try and let it flow this way for a while. but it wont work until its torn down.

so the raps are going to compete for the next 4/5 years? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHH!

not sure how knicks have room to talk, like the other poster said we have your pick. not to mention your "superstar" is getting old, and has been hit with injury recently.

DG7208
07-05-2015, 07:52 AM
not sure how knicks have room to talk, like the other poster said we have your pick. not to mention your "superstar" is getting old, and has been hit with injury recently.

Doesn't Denver get the right to swap Firsts with New York over the Melo trade? Then Toronto would receive the less desirable?

AstonMartin34
07-05-2015, 10:49 AM
not sure how knicks have room to talk, like the other poster said we have your pick. not to mention your "superstar" is getting old, and has been hit with injury recently.

Doesn't Denver get the right to swap Firsts with New York over the Melo trade? Then Toronto would receive the less desirable?


Correct.
But Denver will not be making the playoffs either and will be in the lottery also.

Anyway you position it bargnani for a lottery pick is the trade of the decade. Knicks got fleeced.

mike_noodles
07-05-2015, 12:02 PM
Lol Aldridge did meet with the Raps and was impressed. He says they are an up and comer. He canceled with the Knicks. Nice try.

Hey OP...

http://i.imgur.com/ItJB523.jpg?fb

mike_noodles
07-05-2015, 12:06 PM
They have to rebuild, they won't be contending for a championship

They are rebuilding. They just are not doing it the traditional way through the draft. They are doing it by slowly upgrading talent and adding pieces here and there. There's more than one way to do it. And one of those ways is to get better while still putting out a playoff team. It is not easy by any means, many GM's have tried it and they stall and become treadmill teams. Here's to hoping the Raps don't do that.

mike_noodles
07-05-2015, 12:10 PM
Its hard to really compare the Knicks and the Raptors. I asked a legitimate question about Toronto. The Knicks cant even tank right. They need a lot of help before anything. With that being said they even picked up some tier 2 options. Affalo and Robin Lopez are better net catches then Demarr Carroll and Bismack Biyombo. I missed that memo with Aldridge but he even went to San Antonio to his hometown state to compete. Again using the nationality argument here. He spurned everyone but as well as his interview went with Toronto and as badly as his interview went with the Lakers he me with the Lakers a second time... Adds to my argument. I think there are solid players that could fit a half court style of play similar to the Spurs that can be had at bargain prices from the Euro Leagues. Pablo Prigioni has played well in his limited time in the NBA. You can definitely build a team with some of the talent in Europe and compete.

I just don't ever see you getting a superstar via free agency. Wiggins might be your best chance but he will probably chase the money and extra years to stay in Minnesota now that he has Towns with him.

First, no. Carroll is better than Afflalo.

Second, no. It doesn't add to your argument. The Lakers requested a second meeting because word came out that they screwed up the first and they wanted/needed a chance to redeem themselves.

Brooklyn, he trolls hard.

LanceUpperCut
07-05-2015, 12:15 PM
Raps are just fine where there at. Lots of young guys like who could surprise, draft picks, cap space still. They might not be contenders but either are any team not named Cleveland or possibly Chicago in the East. Still lots of Offseason left. The team might of faltered down the stretch but we were still a 48 win team with some major defensive flaws.

If the Knicks were supposedly rebuilding they would sell off Melo right now and just hope Porzingis doesn't end up like Bargnani.

akesh99
07-05-2015, 03:00 PM
as a matter a fact the knicks ARE at the draft/d league era/FA its the correct way to rebuild. I dont see your point in bringing in another team into this thread, lets re-evaluate whos "hating" here... but Knicks will be ahead of the rebuilding game in the east while the raps will realize they need to dump it all like we are late in the game.

The team as constructed fails in the post season, only a player and system change will fix that. but since they did well in the regular season they will try and let it flow this way for a while. but it wont work until its torn down.

so the raps are going to compete for the next 4/5 years? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAAHH!

I don't understand how you can claim the Knicks will be "ahead" in the rebuilding game when your team has no opportunities to acquire any real assets unless they deal Melo (which in itself would be detrimental because we have your pick).

Raps will most likely give it another shot with a retooled roster, which should address a lot of the weaknesses that were exposed in the playoffs. If it doesn't work out and we decide to blow it up, Val, Ross, Lowry, Dero, Patterson, Carroll etc would net us far greater assets than the scrubs on your squad. To put it simply, we have a far superior roster currently, and should we decide to start the fire sale at any point, will leapfrog your team tenfold in the rebuild process.

Oh and in regards to your first sentence- its "as a matter OF fact" not "as a matter A fact"

FriedTofuz
07-05-2015, 09:17 PM
LOL this thread is hilarious. Every year there is some knicks vs raptor fan stuff and a select few of unrealistic knick fans proclaim that their team is extremely good while the raptors arent and what is the result? missing the playoffs each and every year. 17 wins? I dont care how long melo was out for, THe knicks are trash. With their moves, they should be around the 10th-14th seed. Definitely behind Miami and Boston who did not make the playoffs last year.

GiantsSwaGG
07-05-2015, 09:37 PM
LOL this thread is hilarious. Every year there is some knicks vs raptor fan stuff and a select few of unrealistic knick fans proclaim that their team is extremely good while the raptors arent and what is the result? missing the playoffs each and every year. 17 wins? I dont care how long melo was out for, THe knicks are trash. With their moves, they should be around the 10th-14th seed. Definitely behind Miami and Boston who did not make the playoffs last year.


Grant
Afflalo
Melo
Zinger
Lopez

Lopez and Afflalo should help out a lot on the D and I think these players fit the triangle well and compliment melo, wouldnt shock me to see them in the playoffs.

You basically describe yourself!!!

IBleedPurple
07-05-2015, 09:38 PM
Correct.
But Denver will not be making the playoffs either and will be in the lottery also.Sad, but likely true :(

DG7208
07-05-2015, 10:05 PM
I totally agree, there is No way you can justify trading a FIRST for Bargani, there is a reason grunwald no longer has a job. Horrible desperate move. As a Knick fan, I don't see how we can put ourselves a head of Toronto when we just lost 65 games. With a completely new Roster the goal is to stay out of the lottery.

MonroeFAN
07-05-2015, 10:08 PM
How is the roster "terribly flawed"?

They were 1st seed in the east for a lot of last season. Look to bring in more talent and continue doing what they're doing.

But I don't think Carroll was a good idea.

Legitimate
07-05-2015, 10:11 PM
How is the roster "terribly flawed"?

They were 1st seed in the east for a lot of last season. Look to bring in more talent and continue doing what they're doing.

But I don't think Carroll was a good idea.

man carrol is a huge upgrade over ROSS, just so big of a upgrade its unbelievable, ross was pretty avg to say the least.... and we were 48 wins with starting ross most the season.... we will be a 50 win team this year mark my words, but we probably get swept in the first round again :D

IversonIsKrazy
07-05-2015, 10:15 PM
They jus signed Cory Joseph

Cal827
07-05-2015, 10:28 PM
I think that I speak for all Raptor and Knick fans when I say the following:

We need a thread solely for Tofuz and LatinoFire to debate the Raptors and Knicks futures in :laugh2:

bucketss
07-05-2015, 10:30 PM
They jus signed Cory Joseph

wow really? can't find it anywhere

Pfeifer
07-05-2015, 10:46 PM
I honestly think MU needs to define a direction and go that way. This ISO crap can't fly anymore and it translates to their defensive game. It's like the players had a false sense of entitlement last year. Took things for granted. They better be damn sure they can bet a big FA next year if they decide to trade Derozen. They need to decide if JVal is their guy or not. Hopefully Carroll can fill the rebounding need from the wing. PF is just a black hole though.

JJ_JKidd
07-05-2015, 10:53 PM
We the WHAT?

JJ_JKidd
07-05-2015, 10:53 PM
We the WHAT?

JJ_JKidd
07-05-2015, 10:58 PM
We the WHAT?

mjt20mik
07-05-2015, 11:24 PM
Corey Joseph

Bigbadmoffo
07-05-2015, 11:31 PM
Sweet we got Corey Joseph! Now we just need a PF

FOXHOUND
07-05-2015, 11:48 PM
Wow, people still think the main goal of the Bargnani trade was for Bargnani? :laugh2:

Bargnani was a side piece, the real goal of trading the swap option 2016 pick was to dump salary while adding someone who may be able to add to a 54-win team. It's the reason they had $27M of cap space this offseason instead of $22M.

Bargnani kind of upheld his end of the deal, providing 14 PPG on .447/.302/.818 with 5 REB in 28 MPG. He provided solid role player work with the versatility to play both PF and C and hit mid range shots at a good clip, also surprisingly good post D when at C. The real issue, besides his health, is the team's other moves that made them collapse to begin with.

Scoots
07-06-2015, 11:41 AM
I honestly think MU needs to define a direction and go that way. This ISO crap can't fly anymore and it translates to their defensive game. It's like the players had a false sense of entitlement last year. Took things for granted. They better be damn sure they can bet a big FA next year if they decide to trade Derozen. They need to decide if JVal is their guy or not. Hopefully Carroll can fill the rebounding need from the wing. PF is just a black hole though.

The Warriors played the same way under Mark Jackson. Steve Kerr and Alvin Gentry changed the offense and pushed the pace while Ron Adams built a defense that could do both. Rebounding suffered as expected but the motion offense and early offense and an aggressive D (and Steph Curry) lead to a title. I hope more teams go to the motion/pace and space offense as it's so much nicer to watch, but as long as there are iso stars still in the NBA (Melo, LeBron (not always, don't jump down my thoat Bron lovers), etc) there will be teams running a heavy iso offense.

pebloemer
07-06-2015, 12:00 PM
Wow, people still think the main goal of the Bargnani trade was for Bargnani? :laugh2:

Bargnani was a side piece, the real goal of trading the swap option 2016 pick was to dump salary while adding someone who may be able to add to a 54-win team. It's the reason they had $27M of cap space this offseason instead of $22M.

Bargnani kind of upheld his end of the deal, providing 14 PPG on .447/.302/.818 with 5 REB in 28 MPG. He provided solid role player work with the versatility to play both PF and C and hit mid range shots at a good clip, also surprisingly good post D when at C. The real issue, besides his health, is the team's other moves that made them collapse to begin with.

I don't understand this post. The Toronto Raptors don't have a single contract sent to them in that deal still on their books for this coming season. Novak was the piece that extended into next year and he was easily jettisoned last year without having to give up a first round draft pick.

FOXHOUND
07-06-2015, 12:31 PM
I don't understand this post. The Toronto Raptors don't have a single contract sent to them in that deal still on their books for this coming season. Novak was the piece that extended into next year and he was easily jettisoned last year without having to give up a first round draft pick.

Well yeah, it's much easier to dump Novak when he's an expiring contract than when he has 3-years left. It was a two fold goal, how to improve the roster while having no assets (draft pick or cap space), while at the same time dumping a contract like Novak for an extra kick of cap space in 2015.

Is Bargnani great? No, obviously not. Is he better than Novak? Yes, obviously he is. Of course it was a gamble move, but the idea was adding to the team in the short term while maximizing cap space for a big 2015 FA.

Now, the other moves they made that made that team collapse, that was the big problem. That trickle down effect led to them being an awful team that couldn't attract a big FA this offseason, so obviously things didn't go according to plan.

LanceUpperCut
07-06-2015, 12:41 PM
Well yeah, it's much easier to dump Novak when he's an expiring contract than when he has 3-years left. It was a two fold goal, how to improve the roster while having no assets (draft pick or cap space), while at the same time dumping a contract like Novak for an extra kick of cap space in 2015.

Is Bargnani great? No, obviously not. Is he better than Novak? Yes, obviously he is. Of course it was a gamble move, but the idea was adding to the team in the short term while maximizing cap space for a big 2015 FA.

Now, the other moves they made that made that team collapse, that was the big problem. That trickle down effect led to them being an awful team that couldn't attract a big FA this offseason, so obviously things didn't go according to plan.

So in other words it was a ****** deal for NYK.

phantasyyy
07-06-2015, 12:49 PM
Wow, people still think the main goal of the Bargnani trade was for Bargnani? :laugh2:

Bargnani was a side piece, the real goal of trading the swap option 2016 pick was to dump salary while adding someone who may be able to add to a 54-win team. It's the reason they had $27M of cap space this offseason instead of $22M.

Bargnani kind of upheld his end of the deal, providing 14 PPG on .447/.302/.818 with 5 REB in 28 MPG. He provided solid role player work with the versatility to play both PF and C and hit mid range shots at a good clip, also surprisingly good post D when at C. The real issue, besides his health, is the team's other moves that made them collapse to begin with.

Yeah.. you guys took on more salary in the trade for the same contract lengths..

Camby -2years @4.5m(we bought him out though -so less of a cap hit) Novak @3.75m, 1.5 Richardson = 9.75m vs Bargs 11.5m, so yeah... you guys got fleeced into thinking bargs was actually durable and could play lol.

Its not to take away the fact that bargs is probably great fit for the triangle, but seeing as how Jackson wasn't even with the knicks yet, it makes you wonder...

pebloemer
07-06-2015, 01:18 PM
Well yeah, it's much easier to dump Novak when he's an expiring contract than when he has 3-years left. It was a two fold goal, how to improve the roster while having no assets (draft pick or cap space), while at the same time dumping a contract like Novak for an extra kick of cap space in 2015.

Is Bargnani great? No, obviously not. Is he better than Novak? Yes, obviously he is. Of course it was a gamble move, but the idea was adding to the team in the short term while maximizing cap space for a big 2015 FA.

Now, the other moves they made that made that team collapse, that was the big problem. That trickle down effect led to them being an awful team that couldn't attract a big FA this offseason, so obviously things didn't go according to plan.

Novak was traded with two years left on his deal, so the difference is only a year. But you can't say the Knicks made the trade and Bargnani was merely secondary consideration. They thought he could help the team improve in the short term. Clearing Novak's deal was a long-term benefit.

I agree it was a series of moves that led to the value of the 2016 draft pick being what it potentially is today. I don't think your FO felt it was trading a pick in the lottery. And maybe they still aren't, we'll see how these new look Knicks turn out.

FOXHOUND
07-06-2015, 01:46 PM
So in other words it was a ****** deal for NYK.

That individual deal? No, I still don't think so. Not a great deal by any means, but the logic of it still holds up. The overall management of the team at that time? Yes, absolutely a **** show.

FOXHOUND
07-06-2015, 01:48 PM
Yeah.. you guys took on more salary in the trade for the same contract lengths..

Camby -2years @4.5m(we bought him out though -so less of a cap hit) Novak @3.75m, 1.5 Richardson = 9.75m vs Bargs 11.5m, so yeah... you guys got fleeced into thinking bargs was actually durable and could play lol.

Its not to take away the fact that bargs is probably great fit for the triangle, but seeing as how Jackson wasn't even with the knicks yet, it makes you wonder...

It was just for clearing cap space for the 2015 FA, which yes only Novak applies to. Could they have dumped him later? Sure, but at the time they were a 54-win team that lost depth and had to find replacements while having no cap space or a draft pick. Bargnani is much better than Novak, the deal made sense because it accomplished both goals.

Other things they did, like not realizing JR Smith opting out was a blessing and letting CAA take control of the team, yeah that's the embarrassing stuff to me.

FOXHOUND
07-06-2015, 01:54 PM
Novak was traded with two years left on his deal, so the difference is only a year. But you can't say the Knicks made the trade and Bargnani was merely secondary consideration. They thought he could help the team improve in the short term. Clearing Novak's deal was a long-term benefit.

I agree it was a series of moves that led to the value of the 2016 draft pick being what it potentially is today. I don't think your FO felt it was trading a pick in the lottery. And maybe they still aren't, we'll see how these new look Knicks turn out.

Right, that's fair I guess I can't say he was purely a secondary consideration. At the same time, while it's fun for those who do it, acting like the Knicks were sitting there dying to figure out how to get Bargnani or something is also off base. I get the sake of comedy for it, but people have to be smarter than that when being serious about it.

Yeah, for both the Knicks and Nuggets sake things looked way different back then. Knicks won 54-games, a division title, Melo coming off finishing 3rd in MVP and made it to the second round before JR Smith torpedoed that postseason. Nuggets had just won 57-games and despite a first round knockout had the look of a promising young squad. Nobody imagined either of those picks looking like they do now, and with the Nuggets already having the swap option of the Knicks pick the value in trading it outright was also lower.

I do like this squad that Phil ended up putting together though, even though it's not a "sexy" offseason. He added good defensive guys and smart role players who will know how to play their role next to Melo. Really, it's got good similarities to that team that surprised everyone and won 54-games a few years ago. We'll see how they do.

FOXHOUND
07-06-2015, 02:26 PM
I feel bad that I haven't actually posted about the thread's subject.

I think the Raptors should take the same approach Golden State recently did, and maybe they didn't already by getting Carroll but we'll see how he's lives up to that contract. But if he can maintain that level of play, it will be a good signing IMO.

The biggest thing about Carroll, though, is that he's coming from flourishing in a team oriented heavy ball movement team that allowed him many good looks, and is now going to an ISO heavy team. That can kill his ability to play, so they really need to fix that.

But they've got talented young players and I think they should focus on team growth and chemistry instead of panicking and blowing everything up because of two years. I would like to see Jonas have a bigger role offensively and less focus on inefficient ISO shots from DeRozen and Lowry, and along with that a better offensive system that uses ball movement and team play..

Sly Guy
07-06-2015, 02:52 PM
I feel bad that I haven't actually posted about the thread's subject.

I think the Raptors should take the same approach Golden State recently did, and maybe they didn't already by getting Carroll but we'll see how he's lives up to that contract. But if he can maintain that level of play, it will be a good signing IMO.

The biggest thing about Carroll, though, is that he's coming from flourishing in a team oriented heavy ball movement team that allowed him many good looks, and is now going to an ISO heavy team. That can kill his ability to play, so they really need to fix that.

But they've got talented young players and I think they should focus on team growth and chemistry instead of panicking and blowing everything up because of two years. I would like to see Jonas have a bigger role offensively and less focus on inefficient ISO shots from DeRozen and Lowry, and along with that a better offensive system that uses ball movement and team play..

we won't be an iso team next year. Lou's gone, and a few low usage players added in the offseason. I can't say for certainty, but that makes me believe we're gonna have a lot more ball movement next year (thank god)

FOXHOUND
07-06-2015, 03:07 PM
we won't be an iso team next year. Lou's gone, and a few low usage players added in the offseason. I can't say for certainty, but that makes me believe we're gonna have a lot more ball movement next year (thank god)

Yeah, that makes sense. Also goes along with signing someone like Carroll from a great passing system. I feel like they do that first and then see where the chips fall after. See if Lowry and DeRozen can play well in that style, and if so just keep growing. Jonas may be able to take a nice leap too

Vee-Rex
07-06-2015, 05:20 PM
Wow these trolls are trying to get fancy with it. OP tried to hide it but couldn't.

FriedTofuz
07-07-2015, 03:00 AM
people need to stop being influenced by random stats.
People say carroll wont flourish here because 85% of his points came from assists and atlanta was a top passing team while toronto was a bottom passing team. Dont let cherry picked data influence you. You dont even know how much an average nba player scores from being assisted. Toronto also got rid of 2/3 of their chuckers ( lou williams and Greivis; still have derozan) and should be a much different team next year.

latinofire21
07-07-2015, 07:29 AM
people need to stop being influenced by random stats.
People say carroll wont flourish here because 85% of his points came from assists and atlanta was a top passing team while toronto was a bottom passing team. Dont let cherry picked data influence you. You dont even know how much an average nba player scores from being assisted. Toronto also got rid of 2/3 of their chuckers ( lou williams and Greivis; still have derozan) and should be a much different team next year.

Its funny you would say something like this. Lou Williams was a big part of your regular season wins. Many games none of your starters could put the ball in the basket and I saw Lou carry the offense for quarters at a time. Vasquez was also a very good bench piece. You all were talking about how amazing your bench was last year yet when they leave they were just a bunch of chuckers and you will be better without them. Interesting.

I like the Joseph signing. He will be good for you guys but I think you really gave him top dollar to get him to come to Toronto.

I am still thinking finding talent overseas is the only way your going to be able to balance a solid roster if your going to have to pay Carroll and Joseph that kind of money to get them to leave their own teams. Just crazy money.

LanceUpperCut
07-07-2015, 07:53 AM
people need to stop being influenced by random stats.
People say carroll wont flourish here because 85% of his points came from assists and atlanta was a top passing team while toronto was a bottom passing team. Dont let cherry picked data influence you. You dont even know how much an average nba player scores from being assisted. Toronto also got rid of 2/3 of their chuckers ( lou williams and Greivis; still have derozan) and should be a much different team next year.

Its funny you would say something like this. Lou Williams was a big part of your regular season wins. Many games none of your starters could put the ball in the basket and I saw Lou carry the offense for quarters at a time. Vasquez was also a very good bench piece. You all were talking about how amazing your bench was last year yet when they leave they were just a bunch of chuckers and you will be better without them. Interesting.

I like the Joseph signing. He will be good for you guys but I think you really gave him top dollar to get him to come to Toronto.

I am still thinking finding talent overseas is the only way your going to be able to balance a solid roster if your going to have to pay Carroll and Joseph that kind of money to get them to leave their own teams. Just crazy money.

I'm pretty sure the Knicks offered Carroll the same deal and he chose the Raptors, as for Joseph it did seem a little high to me then I see guys like Reggie Jackson getting twice what Joseph got and realize the market is just insane now. MU pretty much replaced GV with CJ but we get a future 1st and Powell along with him.

Necrosis
07-07-2015, 08:42 AM
Right, that's fair I guess I can't say he was purely a secondary consideration. At the same time, while it's fun for those who do it, acting like the Knicks were sitting there dying to figure out how to get Bargnani or something is also off base. I get the sake of comedy for it, but people have to be smarter than that when being serious about it.

Yeah, for both the Knicks and Nuggets sake things looked way different back then. Knicks won 54-games, a division title, Melo coming off finishing 3rd in MVP and made it to the second round before JR Smith torpedoed that postseason. Nuggets had just won 57-games and despite a first round knockout had the look of a promising young squad. Nobody imagined either of those picks looking like they do now, and with the Nuggets already having the swap option of the Knicks pick the value in trading it outright was also lower.

I do like this squad that Phil ended up putting together though, even though it's not a "sexy" offseason. He added good defensive guys and smart role players who will know how to play their role next to Melo. Really, it's got good similarities to that team that surprised everyone and won 54-games a few years ago. We'll see how they do.


There is no logic in these posts. Bargs was the center piece, if it was for cap it makes no sense and there are are plenty of players one could have traded for with expirings etc you took on more salary and gave up a first round pick (because bargs was by far the best player in the deal on paper). New York got fleeced.

sportsfanatic99
07-07-2015, 10:06 AM
I'm pretty sure the Knicks offered Carroll the same deal and he chose the Raptors, as for Joseph it did seem a little high to me then I see guys like Reggie Jackson getting twice what Joseph got and realize the market is just insane now. MU pretty much replaced GV with CJ but we get a future 1st and Powell along with him.

he didn't meet with the Knicks but it was rumoured they were going to offer something similar.

FOXHOUND
07-07-2015, 10:12 AM
There is no logic in these posts. Bargs was the center piece, if it was for cap it makes no sense and there are are plenty of players one could have traded for with expirings etc you took on more salary and gave up a first round pick (because bargs was by far the best player in the deal on paper). New York got fleeced.

Um, I think the logic is clear.

Knicks 2016 1st Round Pick - Nuggets have right to swap as part of Melo trade.

Knicks in 2012-13 - 54-wins and 1 series win
Nuggets in 2012-13 - 57-wins and young team

Knicks lose vets and depth, needing to replace them. After playing Indiana it becomes even more apparent that they need to add size for that matchup, and still someone who can preferably stretch the floor to maintain spacing for Melo in the post. Knicks had no assets that year, capped out and no pick that upcoming draft. So, how do you add talent otherwise?

Specific team need narrows the search, bigs who can shoot being rare narrows the search, ones who are available being even more rare narrows the search, having to match contracts narrows the search...

That left pretty much just Bargnani. OK, how can we get him without losing anything valuable? Oh, Steve Novak has 3/$12M left on his deal and we're already planning to maximize cap space for the 2015 offseason when we have a ton of expiring contracts. Novak also proved to be worthless in the postseason, so win/win. Bargnani has two years left? Perfect, he fits in with the cap space plan. Can match deals using dead weight Camby and Richardson, freeing up those roster spots for literally anyone else in the process. Win/win

Ok, what do we have to trade? Well, our 2016 pick is already a swap option, so it's already not as valuable. Hmm, ok. To dump Novak we'll have to wait two years until he becomes an expiring, wasting a roster spot on a playoff team. Hmm, ok.

Done.

And to your point about Bargs being by far the best player in the trade on paper? He was by far the best player in the trade, and continued to be in the two years after the trade, so I don't see the point there. You know who else is by far better than those three and Bargs? Kyle O'Quinn, who the Knicks were able to get thanks to that extra $4M cleared up from Novak.

Cool.

Necrosis
07-07-2015, 10:45 AM
Um, I think the logic is clear.

Knicks 2016 1st Round Pick - Nuggets have right to swap as part of Melo trade.

Knicks in 2012-13 - 54-wins and 1 series win
Nuggets in 2012-13 - 57-wins and young team

Knicks lose vets and depth, needing to replace them. After playing Indiana it becomes even more apparent that they need to add size for that matchup, and still someone who can preferably stretch the floor to maintain spacing for Melo in the post. Knicks had no assets that year, capped out and no pick that upcoming draft. So, how do you add talent otherwise?

Specific team need narrows the search, bigs who can shoot being rare narrows the search, ones who are available being even more rare narrows the search, having to match contracts narrows the search...

That left pretty much just Bargnani. OK, how can we get him without losing anything valuable? Oh, Steve Novak has 3/$12M left on his deal and we're already planning to maximize cap space for the 2015 offseason when we have a ton of expiring contracts. Novak also proved to be worthless in the postseason, so win/win. Bargnani has two years left? Perfect, he fits in with the cap space plan. Can match deals using dead weight Camby and Richardson, freeing up those roster spots for literally anyone else in the process. Win/win

Ok, what do we have to trade? Well, our 2016 pick is already a swap option, so it's already not as valuable. Hmm, ok. To dump Novak we'll have to wait two years until he becomes an expiring, wasting a roster spot on a playoff team. Hmm, ok.

Done.

And to your point about Bargs being by far the best player in the trade on paper? He was by far the best player in the trade, and continued to be in the two years after the trade, so I don't see the point there. You know who else is by far better than those three and Bargs? Kyle O'Quinn, who the Knicks were able to get thanks to that extra $4M cleared up from Novak.

Cool.


But you are wrong, the pick is valuable, bargs is not. It was a bad trade, I understand the rationale, however, no novak has been moved twice now, it's a small contract, nothing worth packaging a pick for. Saying the pick was pointless because they could swap is silly, you shouldn't have traded a first for him, he is a negative player (he makes you worse), the raps got immediate cap relief, and have no contracts left from that deal, how does the trade make any sense if cap was the goal? The goal was a player that could score, bargs was it, it required a pick to get him, it was a bad trade.

Philly, has taken on landry, thompson, richardson and other bad contracts. You took on more salary, gave up picks (2 2nds also,) and could have had the same cap just as the Raptors do. The trade is terrible anyway you cut it because bargs was suppose to be the centre piece, it was not for cap, if it was then it was the worst possible way to get cap, particularly if the only contract holding it up was novaks, which is super movable as we have seen.

So the raptors in return saved cap immediately, got picks (which may be a lottery pick, masai knew denver would collapse, coach leaving, iggy bolting etc) and still have the same relief as the knicks coveted in 2015.

They got fleeced, that's it.

FOXHOUND
07-07-2015, 11:26 AM
But you are wrong, the pick is valuable, bargs is not. It was a bad trade, I understand the rationale, however, no novak has been moved twice now, it's a small contract, nothing worth packaging a pick for. Saying the pick was pointless because they could swap is silly, you shouldn't have traded a first for him, he is a negative player (he makes you worse), the raps got immediate cap relief, and have no contracts left from that deal, how does the trade make any sense if cap was the goal? The goal was a player that could score, bargs was it, it required a pick to get him, it was a bad trade.

Philly, has taken on landry, thompson, richardson and other bad contracts. You took on more salary, gave up picks (2 2nds also,) and could have had the same cap just as the Raptors do. The trade is terrible anyway you cut it because bargs was suppose to be the centre piece, it was not for cap, if it was then it was the worst possible way to get cap, particularly if the only contract holding it up was novaks, which is super movable as we have seen.

So the raptors in return saved cap immediately, got picks (which may be a lottery pick, masai knew denver would collapse, coach leaving, iggy bolting etc) and still have the same relief as the knicks coveted in 2015.

They got fleeced, that's it.

Meh, I guess. I don't see how Bargnani made the team worse when he has contributed more the last two seasons than those three players combined, even with his injuries. If you want to use hindsight to change the circumstances at the time, or attribute other things that the Knicks did to this trade somehow, ok I guess. But if you're going to use that to grade the trade you should at least wait to see what pick they end up with, and what player they end up.

I mean, it's not like Toronto has done particularly well even when they have top 10 picks, right? DeRozen is good, that's about it. Draft picks still are ultimately a crapshoot. Pretty sure if people told you in 2011 that #5 pick Jonas' best season by 2015 would be 12 PPG and 8.7 REB you would have said no way.

I also didn't say the pick was pointless. I said the swap option made it less valuable, which is the truth. Masai could have "known" that Denver was going to collapse all he wanted, he still has no control over which pick he ends up with. Denver has choice, Masai gets their leftovers. It's looking like it's going to be a solid pick at worst. But Masai also drafted Terrence Ross 8th overall, so maybe slow down your horses.

Necrosis
07-07-2015, 12:14 PM
Meh, I guess. I don't see how Bargnani made the team worse when he has contributed more the last two seasons than those three players combined, even with his injuries. If you want to use hindsight to change the circumstances at the time, or attribute other things that the Knicks did to this trade somehow, ok I guess. But if you're going to use that to grade the trade you should at least wait to see what pick they end up with, and what player they end up.

I mean, it's not like Toronto has done particularly well even when they have top 10 picks, right? DeRozen is good, that's about it. Draft picks still are ultimately a crapshoot. Pretty sure if people told you in 2011 that #5 pick Jonas' best season by 2015 would be 12 PPG and 8.7 REB you would have said no way.

I also didn't say the pick was pointless. I said the swap option made it less valuable, which is the truth. Masai could have "known" that Denver was going to collapse all he wanted, he still has no control over which pick he ends up with. Denver has choice, Masai gets their leftovers. It's looking like it's going to be a solid pick at worst. But Masai also drafted Terrence Ross 8th overall, so maybe slow down your horses.


Masai did not draft ross, derozan is an all star I would say that's a good pick, it's the goal of a later lottery pick, the studs are usually top 3, I think he was a very good pick. Masai did not make it however. Jonas is still young, scores at a high efficiency, one of the most efficient and plays team ball.

Putting up stats and contributing are different things. he can score, in fact he averaged 21.7 points per game one season, if he had toughness and heart he would be an elite big man scorer. He does not contribute to wins, he is lazy on the boards, lazy on defense and just sucks the effort out of the other four players, in fact his first season in New York was comical, with error after error, his team mates appeared to hate him.


The raps were trying to get RID of bargs, no one thought they could get anything back for him, I was shocked to see the haul they got. He may actually try this year, his gravy train is over, no more big contracts or gifted minutes. Of the stretch 4's in the league I would want him near last. Bargs on the ball defense is good, above average, his help is so bad though, schemes breakdown over and over with him as the help.

dalton749
07-07-2015, 01:44 PM
Pretty much every raps fan knew getting rid of bargnani was going to be addition by subtraction, and we were right. The fact that the pick was involved was the beginning of "Masiah ujiri".
As far as drafting Masais first pick for Toronto was caboclo, who is basically doing his college development on his rookie deal and has as much potential as anyone.
Jonas was a solid pick for 5 though, his breakout will come at some point, he's very talented and looks like it'll be this year, his development has just been different because he's a lottery pick starting out on a winning team

FOXHOUND
07-07-2015, 01:45 PM
Masai did not draft ross, derozan is an all star I would say that's a good pick, it's the goal of a later lottery pick, the studs are usually top 3, I think he was a very good pick. Masai did not make it however. Jonas is still young, scores at a high efficiency, one of the most efficient and plays team ball.

Putting up stats and contributing are different things. he can score, in fact he averaged 21.7 points per game one season, if he had toughness and heart he would be an elite big man scorer. He does not contribute to wins, he is lazy on the boards, lazy on defense and just sucks the effort out of the other four players, in fact his first season in New York was comical, with error after error, his team mates appeared to hate him.


The raps were trying to get RID of bargs, no one thought they could get anything back for him, I was shocked to see the haul they got. He may actually try this year, his gravy train is over, no more big contracts or gifted minutes. Of the stretch 4's in the league I would want him near last. Bargs on the ball defense is good, above average, his help is so bad though, schemes breakdown over and over with him as the help.

Ah, my mistake on Ross. Yes, DeRozan is good I agree.

I got to see plenty of Bargs, trust me I'm not saying he's a world beater haha. Still, he's much better than Novak. The joke about Bargs was that he was like Dirk in the 1st quarter, Darko by the 4th. He would have these 10 point, 4 rebound first quarters and finish with 16 and 7 haha. The real joke is when he started at center and outplayed Dwight Howard...

smith&wesson
07-07-2015, 01:48 PM
Markieff Morris is whats next for the raptors :dance: