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View Full Version : [Serious] Is Kobe still a top 10 SG in the NBA?



xnick5757
06-27-2015, 06:58 PM
On the one hand, his numbers this year were positively horrendous:

37% FG and 29% 3PT on 20! shots per game (47% TS)

and he has suffered injuries the past two years, only playing a combined 41 games over the past two seasons. He will be 37 years old this season.


On the other hand, the shooting guard position is weak right now in the NBA with two clear stars (Harden and Klay) and then not much after that.


Where do you rank Kobe (for this upcoming season) among NBA shooting guards?

Confusious
06-27-2015, 07:00 PM
Over the hill, should have retired a while ago.

Scoots
06-27-2015, 07:03 PM
He still has a lot of skill, but if I take his salary into account the damage he does to the team out weighs the eroding positives. Add to that his injuries and he needs to be a 20-25 mpg guy while the team rebuilds.

Kobe was a killer ... but now he needs to take a backup role for his team.

Raidaz4Life
06-27-2015, 07:04 PM
Eh, really tough to gage due to injuries

xnick5757
06-27-2015, 07:04 PM
Personally i'm undecided. He has been pretty bad the past two years, but there's really not that many good SG's in the NBA today.

:shrug:

Raidaz4Life
06-27-2015, 07:15 PM
I'll say yes for top 10. As bad as he was he still dropped a 31-12-11 game last year which not many players are capable of.

Sactown
06-27-2015, 07:24 PM
Absolutely while his health is an obvious concern, he's still arguably a top 5 skilled athlete

5ass
06-27-2015, 07:30 PM
On a winning team Kobe would be best suited as an elite 6th man at this stage in his career IMO. Inefficent offensively and horrible defensively. I dont think he's top 10.

hotdalton18
06-27-2015, 07:35 PM
No he is completely terrible now

Better for the lakers if he retires now but he won't

Scoots
06-27-2015, 08:01 PM
Kobe isn't terrible, he's just nowhere near the great player he was.

Kashmir13579
06-27-2015, 08:03 PM
No, but..

Blitzace137
06-27-2015, 08:06 PM
It'll seem like he's a top 10 guards if he takes 30 shots a game, but on a contending team I'd say no. Really curious to see how him and Russell will play together since Russell is also a ball dominant guard. Kobe and Lin didn't fit for the same reasons.

TrueFan420
06-27-2015, 08:22 PM
Over the hill, should have retired a while ago.
Sword Art for the win

IBleedPurple
06-27-2015, 08:41 PM
Not far, but no

jerellh528
06-27-2015, 08:48 PM
I dunno. Somebody name the top 10 sgs. I wanna say he's still towards the bottom of the top 10.

ManRam
06-27-2015, 08:51 PM
I have literally no idea how I'd going about answering this question other than "maybe" or "we'll see".

Bruno
06-27-2015, 09:34 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2015&p1=bryanko01&y2=2015&p2=derozde01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

the difference here is less than one might think.

if he's on the floor he's top ten. were talking about sg, weakest position in the NBA.

Jtirado16
06-27-2015, 09:35 PM
We will see this season.

Aust
06-27-2015, 09:37 PM
We will see this season.

He might be playing a lot of SF this season.

Jtirado16
06-27-2015, 09:40 PM
That's true. He looks like he is going to be in the SF a lot. But I still want to see him at the 2. And Clarkson off the bench.

Sadds The Gr8
06-27-2015, 09:46 PM
6-10. SG is the weakest position in the league so yea.

ManRam
06-27-2015, 09:48 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2015&p1=bryanko01&y2=2015&p2=derozde01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

the difference here is less than one might think.

if he's on the floor he's top ten. were talking about sg, weakest position in the NBA.

My initial reaction was "of course he's top-10". But he's gonna be 37 and is now coming off his third major injury in as many years. I think it's an unknown honestly. If you're willing to factor in defense (both his inability, as well as the ability of others), I think it might be close. Khris Middleton very well might have been more valuable of a player over 82 games than Kobe would have been last year, for example.

We'll see. I'd like one more full season of Kobe...so hopefully he can stay healthy.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-27-2015, 09:58 PM
On the one hand, his numbers this year were positively horrendous:

37% FG and 29% 3PT on 20! shots per game (47% TS)

and he has suffered injuries the past two years, only playing a combined 41 games over the past two seasons. He will be 37 years old this season.


On the other hand, the shooting guard position is weak right now in the NBA with two clear stars (Harden and Klay) and then not much after that.


Where do you rank Kobe (for this upcoming season) among NBA shooting guards?hell be the 3rd better sg this year.

jason6692
06-27-2015, 10:38 PM
I guess ill he the first to try no particular order

harden
Klay
Ellis
Demar
Wade
Kobe
Butler
You can place the last 2 however you want but i think this is a solid top 8

TylerSL
06-27-2015, 11:11 PM
I would say Kobe's anywhere from 5-10. I know he's been hurt and he's not overly efficient, but his experience and determination count for something in my book.

If I really had to rank them, I guess I would say the list would be

1. Harden
2. Klay
3. Wade
4. Butler
5. Kobe
6. Derozan
7. Beal
8. Ellis
9. Manu
10. Oladipo

Though IMO 5-10 are all pretty interchangeable, 1-4 are ahead of the pack by quite a margin IMO.

IKnowHoops
06-27-2015, 11:25 PM
hell be the 3rd better sg this year.

:laugh:

More-Than-Most
06-27-2015, 11:27 PM
Skill wise yes but when you factor in the bang for the buck no... i would rank him right now not even in my top 15 i dont think because of the contract and at this point it has to be factored in... Id rather have some backups over him who can be more effiiecent on both sides of the ball for probably 75 percent less

IKnowHoops
06-27-2015, 11:46 PM
There is no way Kobe can be ahead of Butler.

kingsdelez24
06-28-2015, 11:30 AM
Give him a more balanced roster with less of and he'll bounce back with more respectable numbers. He was clearly gunning to pass MJ when he realized nobody on his team can play to win a game to save their lives early on

BKLYNpigeon
06-28-2015, 11:43 AM
I would say Kobe's anywhere from 5-10. I know he's been hurt and he's not overly efficient, but his experience and determination count for something in my book.

If I really had to rank them, I guess I would say the list would be

1. Harden
2. Klay
3. Wade
4. Butler
5. Kobe
6. Derozan
7. Beal
8. Ellis
9. Manu
10. Oladipo

Though IMO 5-10 are all pretty interchangeable, 1-4 are ahead of the pack by quite a margin IMO.

Manu and Olidipio out.

add Wiggans and Wes Mathews.

Jamiecballer
06-28-2015, 11:56 AM
Give him a more balanced roster with less of and he'll bounce back with more respectable numbers. He was clearly gunning to pass MJ when he realized nobody on his team can play to win a game to save their lives early on
And that's different than the last 18 years how

IBleedPurple
06-28-2015, 12:03 PM
I dunno. Somebody name the top 10 sgs. I wanna say he's still towards the bottom of the top 10.After thinking about a list, I'd change my answer to yes. As mentioned, it's the weakest position in the NBA. Kobe isn't my favorite player by any means, but he has all-time great competitiveness and talent.

jason6692
06-28-2015, 12:03 PM
Tbh i dont think tony allen geta enough respect i considered him in my top 10. People forgwt just because hes defensive minded but he has a huge impact on the game from that side of the floor. Hes been huge for memphis and when they were up on GS media was riding him.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
06-28-2015, 12:33 PM
I would say Kobe's anywhere from 5-10. I know he's been hurt and he's not overly efficient, but his experience and determination count for something in my book.

If I really had to rank them, I guess I would say the list would be

1. Harden
2. Klay
3. Wade
4. Butler
5. Kobe
6. Derozan
7. Beal
8. Ellis
9. Manu
10. Oladipo

Though IMO 5-10 are all pretty interchangeable, 1-4 are ahead of the pack by quite a margin IMO.

You forgot Middleton. I'd say Middleton is easily top 5 SG. No homerism either. Good defender and decent three point shooter and 6'8".

JasonJohnHorn
06-28-2015, 12:47 PM
Its hard to gauge based on last season to be honest. He was just coming back from injury, had pretty much an entirely new team and new coach, which mean new system, so it takes a while to adjust. Plus, defenses were focused on him and could slack off on some of the other guys.

We'll see how he plays this season when he has training camp and some other talent. I still don't expect much from him, and I wouldn't put him in the 10-ten last year given his woeful efficiency. But if you are looking at the all-around game, rebounding, passing and to a lesser degree, defense, then he's still up there.

Scoots
06-28-2015, 01:08 PM
Take a look at the free agent market right now ... look at what Kobe provided for his insane salary ... 35 games, $23.5M ... or $670k per game. Sure he put up decent cumulative numbers, but not at $670k per game, and not when you consider he's not exactly getting better each year, last year he only played 6 games. I don't think anybody expects him to play 82 or even in the high 70s this year.

I would rather sign more than 10 of the current SG free agents than Kobe let alone all of the SGs in the NBA under contract. (Butler, Wade, Ellis, Middleton, Afflalo, Matthews, Green, Williams, Smith, Ginobli, Crawford)

I'm not saying all of those players are better than Kobe can be, but when you can get 4 or 5 of them for the money Kobe is making? It's a no brainer.

jason6692
06-28-2015, 01:15 PM
I mean money wise absolutely not he doesnt deserve it. But im assuming this is based purely on skill. But of course he doesn't deserve 24 mil

MILLERHIGHLIFE
06-28-2015, 01:19 PM
Harden
Klay
Butler
Wade
Middleton

Aust
06-28-2015, 01:19 PM
You forgot Middleton. I'd say Middleton is easily top 5 SG. No homerism either. Good defender and decent three point shooter and 6'8".

I thought he was a SF?


Take a look at the free agent market right now ... look at what Kobe provided for his insane salary ... 35 games, $23.5M ... or $670k per game. Sure he put up decent cumulative numbers, but not at $670k per game, and not when you consider he's not exactly getting better each year, last year he only played 6 games. I don't think anybody expects him to play 82 or even in the high 70s this year.

I would rather sign more than 10 of the current SG free agents than Kobe let alone all of the SGs in the NBA under contract. (Butler, Wade, Ellis, Middleton, Afflalo, Matthews, Green, Williams, Smith, Ginobli, Crawford)

I'm not saying all of those players are better than Kobe can be, but when you can get 4 or 5 of them for the money Kobe is making? It's a no brainer.

Not talking about money. As a player.

LA_Raiders
06-28-2015, 01:21 PM
Top 5. He will average 25 6 6 book it...

MILLERHIGHLIFE
06-28-2015, 01:21 PM
I thought he was a SF?



Not talking about money. As a player.

Yeah first year he played SF. Last season mainly all SG. Giannis and Dudley at SF. Middleton can play small ball pf since he's 6'8" and decent rebounder and defender.

Scoots
06-28-2015, 01:27 PM
Not talking about money. As a player.

The OP said to rank him, and contribution to the team vs what the player takes from a team is a siginifcant factor in evaluating a player in a capped sport.

One common way people rank players is by figuring out where they would draft them for fantasy sports or if you were building a team and had the NBA to choose from for a single season. In both of those cases salary counts ... in such a case how does Kobe rank?

If you leave salary out of it, then you look at picking up a SG who has averaged 20 games over the last 2 years and who is getting older fast.

If you take history away then Kobe and just need to play 1 game then maybe Kobe is top 10, but he's such a liability on D anybody building a D first team will avoid him.

Aust
06-28-2015, 01:32 PM
The OP said to rank him, and contribution to the team vs what the player takes from a team is a siginifcant factor in evaluating a player in a capped sport.

One common way people rank players is by figuring out where they would draft them for fantasy sports or if you were building a team and had the NBA to choose from for a single season. In both of those cases salary counts ... in such a case how does Kobe rank?

If you leave salary out of it, then you look at picking up a SG who has averaged 20 games over the last 2 years and who is getting older fast.

If you take history away then Kobe and just need to play 1 game then maybe Kobe is top 10, but he's such a liability on D anybody building a D first team will avoid him.

Your thinking wayyy to much into this. OP never mentions salary, that's your thing.


He still has a lot of skill, but if I take his salary into account the damage he does to the team out weighs the eroding positives. Add to that his injuries and he needs to be a 20-25 mpg guy while the team rebuilds.

Kobe was a killer ... but now he needs to take a backup role for his team.

Money is part of team building yes, but that's not what this is about. Pure player and their basketball skills.

Scoots
06-28-2015, 01:47 PM
Your thinking wayyy to much into this. OP never mentions salary, that's your thing.



Money is part of team building yes, but that's not what this is about. Pure player and their basketball skills.

He said "rank" and implied for the NBA for next year ... he didn't specify the metric to use, so I'm going with building a team to play the NBA season next year.

blahblahyoutoo
06-28-2015, 02:06 PM
top 10 SG on the 2015/16 lakers, yes.

Hawkeye15
06-28-2015, 02:43 PM
considering that the likes of Reddick, Morrow, Tony Allen, and Courtney Lee were top 10 in win shares, yes, Kobe will be a top 10 SG.

The position is by far and away the weakest in the NBA.

andy2518
06-28-2015, 03:05 PM
On the one hand, his numbers this year were positively horrendous:

37% FG and 29% 3PT on 20! shots per game (47% TS)

and he has suffered injuries the past two years, only playing a combined 41 games over the past two seasons. He will be 37 years old this season.


On the other hand, the shooting guard position is weak right now in the NBA with two clear stars (Harden and Klay) and then not much after that.


Where do you rank Kobe (for this upcoming season) among NBA shooting guards?

Bron put up similar if not worse numbers than that in the NBA finals and y'all and the media wouldn't stop going on about how it was one of the best performances in NBA history and how he is the "best player on the planet". Just sayin.

mngopher35
06-28-2015, 03:21 PM
considering that the likes of Reddick, Morrow, Tony Allen, and Courtney Lee were top 10 in win shares, yes, Kobe will be a top 10 SG.

The position is by far and away the weakest in the NBA.

I agree about the SG position but if you are going to use win shares to discuss the top 10 Kobe wouldn't be anywhere near the top. Players like Caldwell-Pope and Mclemore had better ws/48 than Kobe last season. It kind of depends who we are calling SG as well (players like Joe Johnson, Korver, middleton, knight). Overall the only way Kobe is in the top 10 is if you expect him to stay healthy and play much better. Not saying that is unreasonable since it is Kobe though.

Based on the last two seasons with him aging I just wouldn't have him over a few I listed above or players like monta ellis/tony allen. The last time he had a top 10 season and was healthy for playoffs was 2012. If he can return healthy and change his game a little bit it is certainly a possibility with how weak SG position is. Kobe is still very skilled I'm just more in a wait and see mode on him I guess.

tredigs
06-28-2015, 03:52 PM
He's not a top 50 player, but who knows, he might still be a top 10 SG. Absolutely terrible defensively and fairly easy to stop offensively at this point, though. If he assumes a playmaking/distributing role I think he can still be a net positive.

tredigs
06-28-2015, 04:00 PM
Bron put up similar if not worse numbers than that in the NBA finals and y'all and the media wouldn't stop going on about how it was one of the best performances in NBA history and how he is the "best player on the planet". Just sayin.

That was against the NBA's top D and he also posted 13 and 9. Personally I think his performance was overrated, but we've never seen Kobe carry a load that big and that effectively.

beasted86
06-28-2015, 04:05 PM
Manu and Olidipio out.

add Wiggans and Wes Mathews.

Wiggins is not a SG.

mngopher35
06-28-2015, 04:19 PM
Wiggins is not a SG.

Well he is a wing who plays both which is why separating SG/SF can be tough. Flip actually tried making Wiggins the SG next to Shabazz a good amount to give Wiggins the smaller match ups. He is roughly the same size as Butler/Derozan (slightly taller and skinnier). He really can play either depending on how things go but SF is more likely as he adds weight.

tredigs
06-28-2015, 04:20 PM
Wiggins is not a SG.

He played SG as often as not last year. He qualifies.

MonroeFAN
06-28-2015, 04:38 PM
Bron put up similar if not worse numbers than that in the NBA finals and y'all and the media wouldn't stop going on about how it was one of the best performances in NBA history and how he is the "best player on the planet". Just sayin.


He also had one of the most efficient seasons in the history of the league in Miami. People can talk about putting up inefficient numbers in the finals (especially given the circumstances). Kobe can't get his team to the playoffs on his own.

jerellh528
06-28-2015, 05:09 PM
On a side note, it's sad what happened to Kobe. He went from essentially a top 5 player the last season he was healthy. To the bottom 10 of sgs after the injuries. Had he stayed healthy, I woulda loved to see how he aged, probably coulda played effective ball until he was 40.

DemarDerozan
06-28-2015, 05:52 PM
I would say probably 6-10. Wes Mantooth is oft-injured and Wiggins is a SF... Ginobili is on his last leg and not even close...
I don't really get the context of this discussion. Kobe has proven to be the GOAT in terms of longevity... KAJ may have an argument. Why is it important where we rank previously great players who are far past their prime? Let's just appreciate what Mamba has done for the game... no real reason to compare him to the new talent.

numba1CHANGsta
06-28-2015, 05:53 PM
When fully healthy he's still a top 5 SG, these past two seasons dont count because of injuries and a bad supporting cast. If he can stay healthy all year next season then expect him to be one of the best SG

Best SG's right now:

1.Harden
2. Thompson
3. Beal
4. Oladipo
5. Kobe/Wade

DemarDerozan
06-28-2015, 06:06 PM
When fully healthy he's still a top 5 SG, these past two seasons dont count because of injuries and a bad supporting cast. If he can stay healthy all year next season then expect him to be one of the best SG

Best SG's right now:

1.Harden
2. Thompson
3. Beal
4. Oladipo
5. Kobe/Wade

This... I agree when Kobe and Wade are both healthy they are equal... I would swap DeMar out with Oladipo though... And might still put Ellis ahead of DWade and Kobe.

DemarDerozan
06-28-2015, 06:09 PM
Middleton is right there... I'm hoping he has a breakout season this year. The day Joe Dumars traded him as a throw in I knew he had lost it as a GM.

numba1CHANGsta
06-28-2015, 06:13 PM
This... I agree when Kobe and Wade are both healthy they are equal... I would swap DeMar out with Oladipo though... And might still put Ellis ahead of DWade and Kobe.

Yeah I forgot about DeRozan, and idk about Ellis being ahead of a healthy Kobe and Wade, but he's def right behind them

1. Harden
2. Thompson
3. Beal
4. DeRozen
5. Oladipo
6. Kobe/Wade
7. Wade/Kobe
8. Ellis
9. Middleton
10. Redick

Munkeysuit
06-28-2015, 06:14 PM
He's easily top 5 even in old age.

Bruno
06-28-2015, 06:22 PM
On a side note, it's sad what happened to Kobe. He went from essentially a top 5 player the last season he was healthy. To the bottom 10 of sgs after the injuries. Had he stayed healthy, I woulda loved to see how he aged, probably coulda played effective ball until he was 40.

blame the front office for hiring two weak coaches. in 2011 Phil had Kobe down to 33 mpg. in the two weeks leading up to the 2013 achilles tear MDA was riding Kobe 42 mpg a game while fighting for a playoff spot and his job. a strong coache would have continued the 2011 roll back, as opposed to pretending that he's 25.

Kobes last game before the achilles tear: 48 minutes, 47/8/5/3/4 on a TS% of .673% against Portland while fighting for the 8th spot.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201304100POR.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWn7EcoargU

I'm not worried about the knee or the shoulder. he's probably better off with the shoulder repaired since he'd been playing with it for years. Other than father time in general, the game changer is still the achilles.

I think Kobe plays 2-3 more seasons and grows with this core. he'll take a major pay cut, take young guys under his wing and be respected as a great mentor and leader when he retires. the swan song started the moment the Lakers selected Russell, not when they traded for Nash. Kobe knew that he'd play after the 2 year deal, thats why he took so much money. He figured he'd get paid while the team sucks and when they're prepared to compete hell take the cut. I expect Kobe to play 21 or 22 seasons. It all starts with Scott playing him 28 mpg and for the young guys to do the heavy lifting. I see no reason he can't keep this up so long as he is properly preserved.

Even in the game he went down he was excellent, the win against GS
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/201304120LAL.html

Obviously some form of blood magic took place during the achilles injury, which inevitably lead to Golden States 2015 NBA championship.
http://img.bleacherreport.net/img/slides/photos/003/593/393/22e2af833f3f102a9094f14e81a2d258_crop_north.png?w= 630&h=420&q=75

5ass
06-28-2015, 06:24 PM
This... I agree when Kobe and Wade are both healthy they are equal... I would swap DeMar out with Oladipo though... And might still put Ellis ahead of DWade and Kobe.

Demar is not better than oladipo. He gets so overrated sometimes. I'd put Mathews and afflalo over demar. Probably more I'm forgetting.

Jamiecballer
06-28-2015, 06:28 PM
If he's not top 10 he's knocking on the door, provided time hasn't further eroded his body

sep11ie
06-28-2015, 06:35 PM
Yeah I forgot about DeRozan, and idk about Ellis being ahead of a healthy Kobe and Wade, but he's def right behind them

1. Harden
2. Thompson
3. Beal
4. DeRozen
5. Oladipo
6. Kobe/Wade
7. Wade/Kobe
8. Ellis
9. Middleton
10. Redick

No Jimmy Butler?

Bruno
06-28-2015, 06:43 PM
My initial reaction was "of course he's top-10". But he's gonna be 37 and is now coming off his third major injury in as many years. I think it's an unknown honestly. If you're willing to factor in defense (both his inability, as well as the ability of others), I think it might be close. Khris Middleton very well might have been more valuable of a player over 82 games than Kobe would have been last year, for example.

We'll see. I'd like one more full season of Kobe...so hopefully he can stay healthy.
You had already posted what was the most reasonable and correct answer:


I have literally no idea how I'd going about answering this question other than "maybe" or "we'll see".
So I decided to balanced out the thread with a splash of homerism. by law there's really only room for one extremely reasonable comment per thread.

Bruno
06-28-2015, 06:52 PM
My prediction for next year:

1. Harden
2. Thompson
3. Butler
4. Oladipo
5. Kobe
6. Wade
7. DeRozen
8. Beal
9. Middleton
10. Allen

mrblisterdundee
06-28-2015, 07:03 PM
Kobe Bryant can still be a top-10 shooting guard, if he's healthy, swallows his pride and takes an auxiliary role as a second or third option. I think he could really build his value by playing as more of a point guard, while still getting a reasonably efficient 15 to 20 points per game and closing some games out in crunch time.
But none of that will happen while he's on the Lakers. He screwed up any chance of finishing his career strong when he went for the money instead of a chance at championships. Imagine if he would have taken a pay cut and become a co-star with Dirk Nowitzki in Dallas.

numba1CHANGsta
06-28-2015, 07:09 PM
No Jimmy Butler?

Isn't he a SF?

Bruno
06-28-2015, 07:13 PM
Kobe Bryant can still be a top-10 shooting guard, if he's healthy, swallows his pride and takes an auxiliary role as a second or third option. I think he could really build his value by playing as more of a point guard, while still getting a reasonably efficient 15 to 20 points per game and closing some games out in crunch time.
But none of that will happen while he's on the Lakers. He screwed up any chance of finishing his career strong when he went for the money instead of a chance at championships. Imagine if he would have taken a pay cut and become a co-star with Dirk Nowitzki in Dallas.

I don't think Kobe will play much PG with Russell and Clarkson in town.

is Dirk having a strong end to his career? early exits or no playoffs every season since 2011. Dirk should have come to LA on the cheap, Kobe has seniority.

Sadds The Gr8
06-28-2015, 08:11 PM
Isn't he a SF?

played SG last year. Dunleavy is the SF

Sadds The Gr8
06-28-2015, 08:12 PM
My prediction for next year:

1. Harden
2. Thompson
3. Butler
4. Oladipo
5. Kobe
6. Wade
7. DeRozen
8. Beal
9. Middleton
10. Allen
I'd swap Butler and Klay. Then Beal and Derozan

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-28-2015, 10:21 PM
Add Content

Parasyte
06-28-2015, 11:37 PM
Easy. SG is the thinnest spot in the league.

TylerSL
06-28-2015, 11:41 PM
You forgot Middleton. I'd say Middleton is easily top 5 SG. No homerism either. Good defender and decent three point shooter and 6'8".

When making the list I assumed both Middleton and Wiggins were SF, which is why I didn't include them in a top 10 SG list.

kobe4thewinbang
06-29-2015, 12:00 AM
No, and this is coming from me, a huge fan of Kobe Bryant (my favorite player). If this was during the Gasol run, sure, and definitely during his MVP season, but now no. He settles for bad shots now, defense has sagged (was standard to begin with), and just no. LOL. Maybe top 30-50, but not top 10.

beasted86
06-29-2015, 12:27 AM
Yeah I forgot about DeRozan, and idk about Ellis being ahead of a healthy Kobe and Wade, but he's def right behind them

1. Harden
2. Thompson
3. Beal
4. DeRozen
5. Oladipo
6. Kobe/Wade
7. Wade/Kobe
8. Ellis
9. Middleton
10. Redick

You deluded Kobe fans crack me up.

Still attempting to cling onto the idea Kobe > Wade.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. Enjoy your Hot Tub Time-Machine.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-29-2015, 01:15 AM
Yeah I forgot about DeRozan, and idk about Ellis being ahead of a healthy Kobe and Wade, but he's def right behind them

1. Harden
2. Thompson
3. Beal
4. DeRozen
5. Oladipo
6. Kobe/Wade
7. Wade/Kobe
8. Ellis
9. Middleton
10. Redick

You deluded Kobe fans crack me up.

Still attempting to cling onto the idea Kobe > Wade.

Whatever helps you sleep at night. Enjoy your Hot Tub Time-Machine.

Kobe will have a better season than wade this year, book it

Tony_Starks
06-29-2015, 01:24 AM
Seeing that you counted his numbers this year told me all I needed to know about this thread....

lamzoka
06-29-2015, 01:51 AM
1- Harden
2- Thompson
3- Jimmy Butler
4- Beal
5- Monta Ellis
6- Eric Gordon
7- Kris Middleton
8- Dwade
9- CJ mcCollum
10- Iggy - Kyle Korver - JJ Reddick - Lou Williams - Manu G


They're all better than Kobe right now. He should've hang it up 2 years ago

tmacmamba
06-29-2015, 01:51 AM
Is Kyle Korver better than Kobe? No.
Is Victor Oladipo better than Kobe? No.
Is Monta Ellis better than Kobe? No.
Is Andrew Wiggins better than Kobe? No.

Kobe Bryant is definitely still a top 10 sg in the NBA.

tmacmamba
06-29-2015, 01:59 AM
1- Harden
2- Thompson
3- Jimmy Butler
4- Beal
5- Monta Ellis
6- Eric Gordon
7- Kris Middleton
8- Dwade
9- CJ mcCollum
10- Iggy - Kyle Korver - JJ Reddick - Lou Williams - Manu G


They're all better than Kobe right now. He should've hang it up 2 years ago

Eric Gordon better than Kobe?
CJ Mccollum better than Kobe?
JJ Redick better than Kobe?
Manu Ginobili better than Kobe?
Kyle Korver better than Kobe?

I can't take you serious if you honestly believe all of those players are better than Kobe right now, your basketball knowledge is a joke.
We are all entitled to our own opinion but damn you have an ignorant opinion.

"Frends come and go but banners hang forever" - Kobe Bryant.

lamzoka
06-29-2015, 02:17 AM
Eric Gordon better than Kobe?
CJ Mccollum better than Kobe?
JJ Redick better than Kobe?
Manu Ginobili better than Kobe?
Kyle Korver better than Kobe?

I can't take you serious if you honestly believe all of those players are better than Kobe right now, your basketball knowledge is a joke.
We are all entitled to our own opinion but damn you have an ignorant opinion.

"Frends come and go but banners hang forever" - Kobe Bryant.

A kobe fan defending kobe... What's new?

DanG
06-29-2015, 07:53 AM
If i have to choose a SG for the whole season ... Kobe is in my top 10.

If i have to choose a SG for one game ... Kobe is in my top 5 with Wade, Harden, Butler, Klay.

Hawkeye15
06-29-2015, 09:52 AM
I agree about the SG position but if you are going to use win shares to discuss the top 10 Kobe wouldn't be anywhere near the top. Players like Caldwell-Pope and Mclemore had better ws/48 than Kobe last season. It kind of depends who we are calling SG as well (players like Joe Johnson, Korver, middleton, knight). Overall the only way Kobe is in the top 10 is if you expect him to stay healthy and play much better. Not saying that is unreasonable since it is Kobe though.

Based on the last two seasons with him aging I just wouldn't have him over a few I listed above or players like monta ellis/tony allen. The last time he had a top 10 season and was healthy for playoffs was 2012. If he can return healthy and change his game a little bit it is certainly a possibility with how weak SG position is. Kobe is still very skilled I'm just more in a wait and see mode on him I guess.

oh I totally picked a random stat and used it. My point is, the SG's from 6-10 are basically good starters, at best (cherry pick any stat and you will agree). Kobe can still be that if his body is even remotely healthy.

Hawkeye15
06-29-2015, 09:54 AM
Is Kyle Korver better than Kobe? No.
Is Victor Oladipo better than Kobe? No.
Is Monta Ellis better than Kobe? No.
Is Andrew Wiggins better than Kobe? No.

Kobe Bryant is definitely still a top 10 sg in the NBA.

Korver is. Wiggins will be much better than Kobe this year.

WaDe03
06-29-2015, 10:25 AM
1. Harden
2. Wade
3. Butler
4. Klay
5. Ellis
6. Derozan
7. Middleton
8. Kobe
9. Beal
10. Wiggins

I'll get **** for having Wade 2nd but if you didn't actually watch him last year and see him take over games in the fourth quarter then I couldn't care less about your opinion or random numbers you're going to throw out there. Klay was very disappointing in the finals so he dropped behind Butler in my list.

Depending on Kobes health and whether or not he changes his play style or not Kobe could take the 5 spot in my list. If they put together a good team and he decided he wanted to average 18-4-10 I believe he could.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-29-2015, 11:37 AM
1. Harden
2. Wade
3. Butler
4. Klay
5. Ellis
6. Derozan
7. Middleton
8. Kobe
9. Beal
10. Wiggins

I'll get **** for having Wade 2nd but if you didn't actually watch him last year and see him take over games in the fourth quarter then I couldn't care less about your opinion or random numbers you're going to throw out there. Klay was very disappointing in the finals so he dropped behind Butler in my list.

Depending on Kobes health and whether or not he changes his play style or not Kobe could take the 5 spot in my list. If they put together a good team and he decided he wanted to average 18-4-10 I believe he could.

Lmaooo

WaDe03
06-29-2015, 11:46 AM
Lmaooo

I don't see what's so funny Wades for sure been better than Kobe since 08-09 there's no way Kobe will be better than him this season.

mngopher35
06-29-2015, 01:21 PM
oh I totally picked a random stat and used it. My point is, the SG's from 6-10 are basically good starters, at best (cherry pick any stat and you will agree). Kobe can still be that if his body is even remotely healthy.

Yeah, that's true. I think it's possible but at this point I just wouldn't expect it based on the last few years. Hopefully they have realized they need to manage his minutes a little better though (having Russell and clarkson should help).

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-29-2015, 02:09 PM
I don't feel too comfortable counting Kobe out, but the answer realistically is no. He is 36 years old and physically isn't the same after all these injuries. He also has too much pride to take a lesser role in order to still be effective like Paul Pierce or Tim Duncan. He just seems like a man without a role and a player past his prime. I think his time is up.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-29-2015, 02:20 PM
http://www.basketball-reference.com/play-index/pcm_finder.cgi?request=1&sum=0&y1=2015&p1=bryanko01&y2=2015&p2=derozde01&p3=&p4=&p5=&p6=

the difference here is less than one might think.

if he's on the floor he's top ten. were talking about sg, weakest position in the NBA.

Problem is, he can't say on the floor. And I don't think he will adapt to taking a lesser role that would make him more valuable. Maybe I'm wrong though. I just don't see it. He has too much pride IMO. He isn't valuable at all being that inefficient with a body that is falling apart. The team surrounding him was crap, but still, he was bad and his body is falling apart.

ManRam
06-29-2015, 02:23 PM
I don't think people really get how bad Kobe was the last two years. He essentially was producing like a role player, just with an insane usage. He was well in the negatives regardless of which advanced +/- stat you prefer. Posted PER of 16.7 (a "third banana" per Holinger's explanations). He wasn't really a plus defender. Career low shooting percentages. So on and so forth. And now he's a year older and coming off his 3rd major injury in as many years. I don't think it's preposterous to say that guys like Korver, Middleton, Tyreke, Wes, and Beal had better 2015 seasons than Kobe would have had he stayed healthy. Let alone Jimmy, James and Klay. I know those that don't want to agree will just ignore it all together, but the advanced "all-encompassing" stats hated him last year. 54th among SGs in RPM last year. In 35 games he posted a 0.15 WAR. Even as thin as the position is, the production they got out of him was really not good...border line detrimental.


I think it's impossible to really be certain of what he'll do next year. Maybe he comes back and looks great. Maybe he doesn't. We haven't seen enough of him the last two years to be speaking in absolutes. I think it's more likely that he doesn't make it through the season again and continues to struggle when he's on the court...so I'd err on that side of the argument until I see otherwise. You can say "I can't count Kobe out"....but the last two years you absolutely could have.

I think because of that I lean towards not top-10 at this point. I was more hesitant earlier. I'd rather have well more than 10 other SGs on my roster next year than Kobe. I'm more skeptical than not at this point...if for no other reason than age and injuries. He's a question mark. Plain and simple. I'd rather avoid that risk and avoid his 35% usage.

Bruno
06-29-2015, 11:49 PM
I don't think people really get how bad Kobe was the last two years. He essentially was producing like a role player, just with an insane usage.
It is known.

Question is do we take a 41 game sample size spread out over a two year period and use it as a baseline.




He was well in the negatives regardless of which advanced +/- stat you prefer.
The Lakers were one of the three or four worst teams in the league last season so we expected that.


Posted PER of 16.7 (a "third banana" per Holinger's explanations).
This figure includes the six games he played two years ago. If we isolate the sample size to the 35 played last year its 17.6.


He wasn't really a plus defender. Career low shooting percentages. So on and so forth.
He had the worst roster of his entire career last season. Career low in shooting percentages would have been normal even if he never started missing games with injury.


And now he's a year older and coming off his 3rd major injury in as many years.
The main issue has always been the achilles. I come from he camp that says the last one was good for him. The shoulder had been bothering him for years and it's no longer an issue. If anything this most recent surgery should help improve him as a player. maybe get a little bit of lift back into his threes.



I don't think it's preposterous to say that guys like Korver, Middleton, Tyreke, Wes, and Beal had better 2015 seasons than Kobe would have had he stayed healthy. Middleton no. But Korver isn't getting any younger either and might not have the same impact if Milsap leaves. tyreke i'd say no. Matthews is also coming off an achilles injury and Beal, I might buy that or am at least open to the idea of it. But Beal has also missed 50+ games in his three seasons and hasn't been able to stay on the court all season either. All the guys you just listed other than Middleton have their drawbacks and reasons to be suspicious of.

Let alone Jimmy, James and Klay.
those three aren't up for debate after the seasons they had.


I know those that don't want to agree will just ignore it all together, but the advanced "all-encompassing" stats hated him last year. 54th among SGs in RPM last year. In 35 games he posted a 0.15 WAR. Even as thin as the position is, the production they got out of him was really not good...border line detrimental.
thats kind of my point from earlier. ones opinion on this really depends on how deep one values the sample size, and how one sees the context, such as teammate quality. I think we'd both agree the Lakers will have more options next season and will be a better more productive team.



I think it's impossible to really be certain of what he'll do next year. Maybe he comes back and looks great. Maybe he doesn't. Maybe he just looks good and that's good enough. maybe some times larry david pretty good.


We haven't seen enough of him the last two years to be speaking in absolutes.
I agree.


I think it's more likely that he doesn't make it through the season again and continues to struggle when he's on the court...so I'd err on that side of the argument until I see otherwise. You can say "I can't count Kobe out"....but the last two years you absolutely could have.
you expect him to struggle like last season even with a much improved roster? I think there's almost no doubt that he'll be better I just don't know how much better. When Kobe went down, nobody gave two thoughts to Jordan Clarkson, he didn't emerge until after Kobe went down. So now you add Clarkson who could be treated like a lottery asset considering he made the all rookie first team and 6-7 players who were drafted top ten did not, you add Randle who is a high end lottery assets and Rusell who's a high end lottery asset. If the Lakers get a little lucky in free agency, the roster will be respectable, even if very green. I don't think he'll be worse or less efficient with this new batch of talent. But of course, he like any player could be lost to injury at any moment.

I think about it like he's had ample rest and recovery time.


I think because of that I lean towards not top-10 at this point. I was more hesitant earlier. I'd rather have well more than 10 other SGs on my roster next year than Kobe. I'm more skeptical than not at this point...if for no other reason than age and injuries. He's a question mark. Plain and simple. I'd rather avoid that risk and avoid his 35% usage.
I'd be surprised if it was any higher than 31% next season. he put up 29.1 in 2004 and 26.8% in 2000 for comparisons sake. it goes down with the new talent. the team was garbage last year, team of rentals. i'm still glad he went down shooting. now with this new core is the time to adapt/adjust for the long hall, and all Laker fans hope to see him flirt with 20 ppg 5/4 on a TS% higher than .52ish in a humble 28 or so minutes a game. thats 20 minutes of run for the young guys to run the ship themselves.

Bron > Kobe
06-30-2015, 12:09 AM
It is known.

Question is do we take a 41 game sample size spread out over a two year period and use it as a baseline.




The Lakers were one of the three or four worst teams in the league last season so we expected that.


This figure includes the six games he played two years ago. If we isolate the sample size to the 35 played last year its 17.6.


He had the worst roster of his entire career last season. Career low in shooting percentages would have been normal even if he never started missing games with injury.


The main issue has always been the achilles. I come from he camp that says the last one was good for him. The shoulder had been bothering him for years and it's no longer an issue. If anything this most recent surgery should help improve him as a player. maybe get a little bit of lift back into his threes.


Middleton no. But Korver isn't getting any younger either and might not have the same impact if Milsap leaves. tyreke i'd say no. Matthews is also coming off an achilles injury and Beal, I might buy that or am at least open to the idea of it. But Beal has also missed 50+ games in his three seasons and hasn't been able to stay on the court all season either. All the guys you just listed other than Middleton have their drawbacks and reasons to be suspicious of.

those three aren't up for debate after the seasons they had.


thats kind of my point from earlier. ones opinion on this really depends on how deep one values the sample size, and how one sees the context, such as teammate quality. I think we'd both agree the Lakers will have more options next season and will be a better more productive team.


Maybe he just looks good and that's good enough. maybe some times larry david pretty good.


I agree.


you expect him to struggle like last season even with a much improved roster? I think there's almost no doubt that he'll be better I just don't know how much better. When Kobe went down, nobody gave two thoughts to Jordan Clarkson, he didn't emerge until after Kobe went down. So now you add Clarkson who could be treated like a lottery asset considering he made the all rookie first team and 6-7 players who were drafted top ten did not, you add Randle who is a high end lottery assets and Rusell who's a high end lottery asset. If the Lakers get a little lucky in free agency, the roster will be respectable, even if very green. I don't think he'll be worse or less efficient with this new batch of talent. But of course, he like any player could be lost to injury at any moment.

I think about it like he's had ample rest and recovery time.


I'd be surprised if it was any higher than 31% next season. he put up 29.1 in 2004 and 26.8% in 2000 for comparisons sake. it goes down with the new talent. the team was garbage last year, team of rentals. i'm still glad he went down shooting. now with this new core is the time to adapt/adjust for the long hall, and all Laker fans hope to see him flirt with 20 ppg 5/4 on a TS% higher than .52ish in a humble 28 or so minutes a game. thats 20 minutes of run for the young guys to run the ship themselves.
This is a legit post. Props

mrblisterdundee
06-30-2015, 12:28 AM
I don't think Kobe will play much PG with Russell and Clarkson in town.

is Dirk having a strong end to his career? early exits or no playoffs every season since 2011. Dirk should have come to LA on the cheap, Kobe has seniority.

That's one of the reasons I said Kobe won't end his career well in Los Angeles. I also said he screwed the rest of his career over by going for the money, as if he needs it. If Kobe had a contract like Dirk's, he could have joined a big three and won more championships. Teams could afford to add him and still build a deep roster. I could even see him fitting well with James in Cleveland, Dirk in Dallas or Duncan in San Antonio. But he chose money over winning another championship. Now it's just waiting until he retires.

kobe4thewinbang
06-30-2015, 02:12 AM
After more replies, I'm surprised to see this many "yes" votes or people on the fence about it. Surely there are 10 more reliable SGs than Kobe right now, 10 that are bound to play better than Kobe will on a game-to-game basis, who is likely to shoot 9-28 and get burned by his matchup. Blame the team talent all you want, but Kobe should never shoot more than 10 times a game these days, especially if he's 1-7 or something (despite his quote about shooting vs declining to shoot) because Clarkson, Randle, Young, Russell, whoever, should be shooting instead. He kills ball movement and team chemistry whenever he is not playing the PG role that Nash was meant to play. Lakers won games when Kobe played this way, and lost whenever he tried to turn back the clock. I wish he'd play more like Duncan and Pierce.

Sanjay
07-08-2015, 02:57 AM
I think so. My top ten shooting guards would be something like this:

1. Harden
2. Thompson
3. Butler
4. Matthews
5. Beale
6. Ellis
7. Wade
8. Kobe
9. Reddick
10. Korver

Some of you might say Matthews is too high, but I like his all-round game. Likewise Beale, I think he has improved on the defensive end. Ellis could probably be higher, but I feel sometimes he is too inconsistent. Kobe could probably be second if he did not get injured.

FraziersKnicks
07-08-2015, 04:28 AM
Harden
Butler
Klay
Beal
Wade
DeRozan
Middleton
Korver
Ellis
Wiggins
Oladipo
Redick
Green
Matthews (depending on his recovery)

Those are all guys I would take over Kobe for next season.

You can then add Lance Stephenson (if he has a bounce back year), Arron Afflalo, Eric Gordon and Joe Johnson to that group if they play solid, efficient basketball. That could push Kobe out to about 17-18 in SG rankings.

This is all factoring in how Kobe played last year, the fact he's a year older and had another significant injury. I don't expect a bounce back year.

I think best case scenario would be 17/4/4 on around 43% shooting. I still don't think he would be top 10 with those numbers because of how terrible he is defensively now, but that would make him at least marginally valuable overall and probably put him top 13 ish.

More-Than-Most
07-08-2015, 05:41 AM
After more replies, I'm surprised to see this many "yes" votes or people on the fence about it. Surely there are 10 more reliable SGs than Kobe right now, 10 that are bound to play better than Kobe will on a game-to-game basis, who is likely to shoot 9-28 and get burned by his matchup. Blame the team talent all you want, but Kobe should never shoot more than 10 times a game these days, especially if he's 1-7 or something (despite his quote about shooting vs declining to shoot) because Clarkson, Randle, Young, Russell, whoever, should be shooting instead. He kills ball movement and team chemistry whenever he is not playing the PG role that Nash was meant to play. Lakers won games when Kobe played this way, and lost whenever he tried to turn back the clock. I wish he'd play more like Duncan and Pierce.

8 of the 16 votes are known kobe or laker fans with a few votes bein dupes as well. Kinda makes sense now.

PhillyFaninLA
07-08-2015, 06:31 AM
I don't believe most of you will agree with me, but if I'm the coach, I don't care about that this year.

He is my 6th man this year. The Lakers aren't very good and the kids playing together and developing chemistry is much more important than Kobe's ego. I'm thinking about the future and this is Kobe's last year in a Lakers uniform. If his mouth starts getting the best of him he gets fined and suspended.

Lakers showed they have some decent young guards and of course Randle. These guys won't learn from Kobe unless he takes the role of mentor and does what is best for the Lakers future.

Kobe being a center piece does not help the Lakers, he started his career as one of the best 6 men, he can and should end it that way,

magic0320
07-08-2015, 02:53 PM
question should be can kobe play all season long? how the **** do you judge player who's been getting injured most of season and playing with injured body without knowing. also who the **** cares other players I just want kobe to play not ****in sitting injured.

MILLERHIGHLIFE
07-08-2015, 03:02 PM
Middleton is right there... I'm hoping he has a breakout season this year. The day Joe Dumars traded him as a throw in I knew he had lost it as a GM.

Right on! Middleton #5 on my SG chart.

Slug3
07-08-2015, 03:25 PM
1. Harden
2. Wade
3. Butler
4. Klay
5. Ellis
6. Derozan
7. Middleton
8. Kobe
9. Beal
10. Wiggins

I'll get **** for having Wade 2nd but if you didn't actually watch him last year and see him take over games in the fourth quarter then I couldn't care less about your opinion or random numbers you're going to throw out there. Klay was very disappointing in the finals so he dropped behind Butler in my list.

Depending on Kobes health and whether or not he changes his play style or not Kobe could take the 5 spot in my list. If they put together a good team and he decided he wanted to average 18-4-10 I believe he could.

As a Heat fan I would put Butler and Klay above him and Wade and Ellis are pretty much the same at this point. So I would have Wade 4th/5th.

Whitemamba24x
07-08-2015, 03:30 PM
James Harden
DeMar DeRozan
Jimmy Butler
Klay Thompson
Bradley Beal
Victor Oladipo
Brandon Knight
Monta Ellis

Yes. Yes he is still a top 10 shoot guard, Lmao.
IF healthy, hes still a top 3 shooting guard in the NBA. Not really debatable

G_S_W
07-08-2015, 04:24 PM
I think so. My top ten shooting guards would be something like this:

1. Harden
2. Thompson
3. Butler
4. Matthews
5. Beale
6. Ellis
7. Wade
8. Kobe
9. Reddick
10. Korver

Some of you might say Matthews is too high, but I like his all-round game. Likewise Beale, I think he has improved on the defensive end. Ellis could probably be higher, but I feel sometimes he is too inconsistent. Kobe could probably be second if he did not get injured.

It really doesn't matter where Kobe ranks, specifically.

The problem is, he THINKS he's still the best player or at least SG in the game. He's going to take 25 attempts a game, shoot an abysmal percentage, and literally shoot the lakers out of a half dozen wins singlehandedly, namely by missing a potential game winner and/or taking 30+ attempts at a rock bottom percentage.

Not that it matters much if the lakers win 24 vs. 30 games....

Hawkeye15
07-08-2015, 05:17 PM
It really doesn't matter where Kobe ranks, specifically.

The problem is, he THINKS he's still the best player or at least SG in the game. He's going to take 25 attempts a game, shoot an abysmal percentage, and literally shoot the lakers out of a half dozen wins singlehandedly, namely by missing a potential game winner and/or taking 30+ attempts at a rock bottom percentage.

Not that it matters much if the lakers win 24 vs. 30 games....

You left out that Kobe is a horrible defender at this point. Can't blame him, the body isn't working like it used to.

Kobe is a sub .500 player at this point of his career. With that mileage, his injuries, you really can't expect anything more though, not his fault.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-08-2015, 05:25 PM
It really doesn't matter where Kobe ranks, specifically.

The problem is, he THINKS he's still the best player or at least SG in the game. He's going to take 25 attempts a game, shoot an abysmal percentage, and literally shoot the lakers out of a half dozen wins singlehandedly, namely by missing a potential game winner and/or taking 30+ attempts at a rock bottom percentage.

Not that it matters much if the lakers win 24 vs. 30 games....

You left out that Kobe is a horrible defender at this point. Can't blame him, the body isn't working like it used to.

Kobe is a sub .500 player at this point of his career. With that mileage, his injuries, you really can't expect anything more though, not his fault.

Dig bet on Kobe having s good year ?

Hawkeye15
07-08-2015, 05:26 PM
Dig bet on Kobe having s good year ?

A- I don't do sig bets
B- Your definition of a good year changes depending on the player. Furthermore, I don't even think you know what "good" is.

If Kobe takes a dump at center court you will praise it for having rings.

ILLUSIONIST^248
07-08-2015, 05:38 PM
Dig bet on Kobe having s good year ?

A- I don't do sig bets
B- Your definition of a good year changes depending on the player. Furthermore, I don't even think you know what "good" is.

If Kobe takes a dump at center court you will praise it for having rings.


Any kind of bet? I'll let you decide how to judge his year. Kobe's coming out hot this year.

Hawkeye15
07-08-2015, 05:41 PM
Any kind of bet? I'll let you decide how to judge his year. Kobe's coming out hot this year.

no way, not messing with my sig, it's perfect.

You can PM me what you think he will do this year, we will see how close you are after the season, assuming I am still alive after another season of Wolves injuries.

mightybosstone
07-08-2015, 06:03 PM
It's really, really hard to judge this question. If we're talking about Kobe's last healthy season before the Achilles derailed his career, he was unequivocally a top 3 SG, and you could have made a case for him being the best. But he has just played so little the last two seasons and played so poorly, that I just have a hard time ranking him in the top 10, so I put him at 11-15.

But now that I look at it, I think there's a few different tiers of SGs, and you could make a decent case for him being in any tier but the first. Here's how I see the position right now (note that I left off Dragic, because I still think he's a PG first):

First tier: Absolutely 100% better than Kobe
1. James Harden
2. Klay Thompson
3. Jimmy Butler
4. Dwyane Wade

Second tier: I'd still take these guys over Kobe today
5. DeMar DeRozan
6. Wes Matthews (if healthy, and that's a big if)
7. Monta Ellis
8. Lou Williams
9. Andrew Wiggins
10. Bradley Beal

Third tier: Depending on the time of day and situation, I might take Kobe over these guys
11. Kyle Korver
12. Tyreke Evans
13. Danny Green
14. Victor Oladipo
15. Kevin Martin
16. Manu Ginobili
17. JJ Redick

Fourth tier: I'm absolutely taking Kobe over these guys
17. Kevin Martin
18. Eric Gordon
19. Corey Brewer
20. Gerald Henderson
21. Iman Shumpert
22. OJ Mayo
23. Gerald Green
24. Courtney Lee
25. Evan Turner
26. Lance Stephenson

(Note: Don't pay so much attention to the order as you do the tiers. Trying to rank these players was freakishly hard, but putting them in tiers was relatively easy for me. Also, I probably left out a few guys, so I'm sure I'll get berated for that.)

FraziersKnicks
07-08-2015, 06:08 PM
Any kind of bet? I'll let you decide how to judge his year. Kobe's coming out hot this year.

I would love to know what kinda numbers you think Kobe will put up this year...

G_S_W
07-08-2015, 08:48 PM
You left out that Kobe is a horrible defender at this point. Can't blame him, the body isn't working like it used to.

Kobe is a sub .500 player at this point of his career. With that mileage, his injuries, you really can't expect anything more though, not his fault.

He's been close to a "zero effort" guy on D for years now. Can't blame him. Needs to save energy for all of those shot attempts for posterity.

G_S_W
07-08-2015, 08:52 PM
Any kind of bet? I'll let you decide how to judge his year. Kobe's coming out hot this year.

He's coming out "hot?" He's 37, and coming off a season shooting 37% from the field and averaging nearly 4 TO's per game.

Let's sig bet that Rubio will come out "hot" and lead the league in FG% through November.