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View Full Version : Sam Hinkie, the New David Kahn?



Wade n Fade
06-25-2015, 11:47 PM
How many centers is this guy going to take?

WITZ
06-25-2015, 11:50 PM
:laugh2: never thought of it that way.

Tony_Starks
06-26-2015, 12:42 AM
Disrespectful to David Kahn. He was incompetent but at least he was extremely hilarious and entertaining. Hinkie isn't very funny......

PurpleJesus
06-26-2015, 12:44 AM
The comparison crossed my mind.

In Hinkie's defense though, how do you not select Okafor there? His problem now, is trying to trade a guy with huge injury issues in Embiid.

beasted86
06-26-2015, 01:13 AM
Embiid will now get traded for pennies on the dollar. I expect a future lottery protected pick and a filler role player by the trade deadline.

Wade n Fade
06-26-2015, 01:39 AM
The comparison crossed my mind.

In Hinkie's defense though, how do you not select Okafor there? His problem now, is trying to trade a guy with huge injury issues in Embiid.

Boston was going to give up so much for Okafor, so that would've been the better idea. Or even enticing others to make the trade up.

PurpleJesus
06-26-2015, 01:46 AM
Boston was going to give up so much for Okafor, so that would've been the better idea. Or even enticing others to make the trade up.

Speculation. Were those deals really on the table? How do you know Hinkie didnt try to entice other teams, and they just didnt bite?

BKLYNpigeon
06-26-2015, 02:22 AM
Sixers are just drafting Best available. all these guys are assets that can be moved very easily.

PurpleJesus
06-26-2015, 02:23 AM
Sixers are just drafting Best available. all these guys are assets that can be moved very easily.

except for Embiid. Huge injury concerns...which is why I understand the Jahlil pick.

yasharel
06-26-2015, 02:44 AM
Speculation. Were those deals really on the table? How do you know Hinkie didnt try to entice other teams, and they just didnt bite?

you talk about speculation but yet you say something dumb like the 76ers are going to trade embid when thhey clearly arent. If anyone is traded it will be 4 years from now. The 76ers will use all 3 of there big men. Whether embid or okafor comes off the bench playing 30 mpg they'll dominate.

yasharel
06-26-2015, 02:48 AM
Embiid will now get traded for pennies on the dollar. I expect a future lottery protected pick and a filler role player by the trade deadline.

wow its almost like brains dont exist anymore. So much foolish post going on here on this forum

yasharel
06-26-2015, 02:53 AM
Embid isnt even a injury issue. The guy feels no pain, hes been playing 5 on 5 and going hard all pain free! A ct scanned showed something small not healing as fast as they thought. There was no re-injury or set back. Kids going to play

PurpleJesus
06-26-2015, 03:03 AM
you talk about speculation but yet you say something dumb like the 76ers are going to trade embid when thhey clearly arent. If anyone is traded it will be 4 years from now. The 76ers will use all 3 of there big men. Whether embid or okafor comes off the bench playing 30 mpg they'll dominate.

k

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2015, 03:15 AM
He took the bpa....dumb comparison.

slaker619
06-26-2015, 03:15 AM
Sixers are looking like a joke they really need help

FOXHOUND
06-26-2015, 03:28 AM
I imagine Noel would get traded before Embiid, pending health. Noel is too limited offensively, definitely can't play PF next to Okafor. Embiid's shooting allows a much better fit for a twin tower duo, but in the short term they can keep all three and run a big man trio at 32 MPG a piece if they want with no problem.

Dario is also probably years away going the Mirotic route, they could line that up and have him replace the 3rd big role when they move one of the others if they wanted to.

JNA17
06-26-2015, 03:41 AM
http://i.imgur.com/9uqu6fX.png

IBleedPurple
06-26-2015, 03:42 AM
This thread is not complete without a dissertation by Hawkeye, and I'm being serious.

PurpleJesus
06-26-2015, 04:19 AM
I imagine Noel would get traded before Embiid, pending health. Noel is too limited offensively, definitely can't play PF next to Okafor. Embiid's shooting allows a much better fit for a twin tower duo, but in the short term they can keep all three and run a big man trio at 32 MPG a piece if they want with no problem.

Dario is also probably years away going the Mirotic route, they could line that up and have him replace the 3rd big role when they move one of the others if they wanted to.

:laugh:

FraziersKnicks
06-26-2015, 05:37 AM
Sixers just look like a revolving door of draft picks. Their front court could make a bit of noise next season but Hinkie needs to turn it around soon. It seems like some players are starting to be put off the idea of playing for a team where you're so expendable.

D-Leethal
06-26-2015, 08:18 AM
I just wanna know how long it tanks for him to actually start building a team.

nycericanguy
06-26-2015, 09:02 AM
I mean he's collected alot of parts, but you have to wonder about player development. How can these guys seriously be expected to develop when you are just throwing together random players that don't fit and know they are just trade chips? Because we all know Hinkie is just evaluating for his next trade for assets. There is no way he can keep all 3.

Embid's trade value has to be shot until he proves he can play and stay healthy and that the back and foot aren't big issues, he would have to trade him for pennies on the dollar right now.

Saric is another frontcourt guy and he can just wait til 2017 and then he won't be under rookie scale anymore just in time with the cap exploding so Hinkie will have to pay big money for a guy that has never played an NBA game.

Okafor must be pissed right now, he had LA & NY between PHI and ended up in PHI with 2 other centers. NY or LA would have been perfect situations for him.

JLynn943
06-26-2015, 09:17 AM
Noel and Okafor could work very well together. I don't know what they do with Embiid now, but if he looks like he's going to stay healthy and could live up to the potential, they'll have a difficult decision to make.

ManRam
06-26-2015, 09:19 AM
Hinkie has taken the best talent available to him each of the last 3 years, and I don't think that's even remotely debatable. That's not worth criticizing...and that's not something Kahn ever did.

valade16
06-26-2015, 09:20 AM
I imagine Noel would get traded before Embiid, pending health. Noel is too limited offensively, definitely can't play PF next to Okafor. Embiid's shooting allows a much better fit for a twin tower duo, but in the short term they can keep all three and run a big man trio at 32 MPG a piece if they want with no problem.

Dario is also probably years away going the Mirotic route, they could line that up and have him replace the 3rd big role when they move one of the others if they wanted to.

Trading away their best player and one sure asset that has panned out seems like the exact kind of move the 76ers would make.

So far as I can tell, Hinkie isn't trying to build a team or accumulate assets, he's trying to perpetually suck until the next MJ/Bron/GOAT caliber player comes up and then just take him.

king4day
06-26-2015, 09:22 AM
The comparison crossed my mind.

In Hinkie's defense though, how do you not select Okafor there? His problem now, is trying to trade a guy with huge injury issues in Embiid.

I'd trade the Morris twins (as a starting point at the least) for him. Send them home to Philly and let the Suns staff fix him

valade16
06-26-2015, 09:25 AM
Hinkie has taken the best talent available to him each of the last 3 years, and I don't think that's even remotely debatable. That's not worth criticizing...and that's not something Kahn ever did.

It absolutely is.

First, obviously the fit is terrible. Actually, that's an incorrect statement, there isn't a fit.

Second, these assets he's getting that he can trade later are diminishing in value as we speak. If Embiid misses the time he's purportedly going to miss next season no way they could trade him for the 3rd pick in next year's draft, which is where they got him in the draft they took him, so he actually lost trade value. Same with Noel, unless Noel develops an offensive game people are seeing he's not a well-rounded enough player to be a superstar or franchise player, so no way they would give up a Top 3 pick for him.

I'm not sure many teams would have traded the chance to take Towns/Okafor (or even Russell for that matter) for Noel.

Hawkeye15
06-26-2015, 09:29 AM
Kahn took Jonny Flynn and Wes Johnson, who sucked balls. Huge balls.

Not even a comparison, sorry.

On top of that, Kahn acted like he was this highly intellectual person who knew more than anyone else in the room. I defended him for clearing cap space and the mess left behind by McFail, but about halfway through his tenure realized McFail was RC Buford compared to Kahn when it came to evaluating talent.

ManRam
06-26-2015, 09:31 AM
It absolutely is.

First, obviously the fit is terrible. Actually, that's an incorrect statement, there isn't a fit.

Second, these assets he's getting that he can trade later are diminishing in value as we speak. If Embiid misses the time he's purportedly going to miss next season no way they could trade him for the 3rd pick in next year's draft, which is where they got him in the draft they took him, so he actually lost trade value. Same with Noel, unless Noel develops an offensive game people are seeing he's not a well-rounded enough player to be a superstar or franchise player, so no way they would give up a Top 3 pick for him.

I'm not sure many teams would have traded the chance to take Towns/Okafor (or even Russell for that matter) for Noel.

You're worrying about fit on a team that isn't ready to contend. That's silly. You're also assuming all 3 of those guys live up to their potential and will be on the team long-term. I personally think (and again, it's hard to debate) that the 3 they took were the obvious picks. But there are already huge questions in regards to Embiid, and Okafor and Noel have enough holes in their games that they might not be considered long term pieces.

Rule #1 of rebuilding is to do everything you can to acquire top end talent, and hopefully a transcending star. Getting that ONE player makes all the difference in the world. It is FAAARRRRR more important than worrying about fit after you've just lost 19032 games. Maybe that star is Okafor. Maybe it's Embiid. Maybe it's Noel. Maybe it's two of them. Maybe it's three of them. Either way, it's the right move.


Fit is such a stupid thing to worry about if you're a talentless team.

2-ONE-5
06-26-2015, 09:32 AM
Boston was going to give up so much for Okafor, so that would've been the better idea. Or even enticing others to make the trade up.

Boston offer was trash, Emiid is fine. Pretty happy in the 215 right now myself

ManRam
06-26-2015, 09:35 AM
Boston was going to give up so much for Okafor, so that would've been the better idea. Or even enticing others to make the trade up.

Ehh...

Smart's a nice player, and would help, but Olynyk, Sully, the 16th and 28th pick aren't really great assets for a team in Philly's situation. The odds of the 16th pick helping you out long term are low...let alone the 28th pick. And if we're complaining about too many big men...why are people clamoring for them to get Kelly and Jared?


The 76ers want a superstar REALLY bad. That trade doesn't at all help with that. It gets them further away from it, if anything. Dropping down from 3 to 16 for some potential 7th men and Marcus Smart...a fringy starter...isn't wise.

mike44
06-26-2015, 09:42 AM
They took bpa and have 3 of the best big man prospects in the game, that's a good problem to have. His offense with Noel's defense could be deadly. This isn't exactly Johnny Flynn they drafted

valade16
06-26-2015, 10:05 AM
You're worrying about fit on a team that isn't ready to contend. That's silly. You're also assuming all 3 of those guys live up to their potential and will be on the team long-term. I personally think (and again, it's hard to debate) that the 3 they took were the obvious picks. But there are already huge questions in regards to Embiid, and Okafor and Noel have enough holes in their games that they might not be considered long term pieces.

Rule #1 of rebuilding is to do everything you can to acquire top end talent, and hopefully a transcending star. Getting that ONE player makes all the difference in the world. It is FAAARRRRR more important than worrying about fit after you've just lost 19032 games. Maybe that star is Okafor. Maybe it's Embiid. Maybe it's Noel. Maybe it's two of them. Maybe it's three of them. Either way, it's the right move.

Fit is such a stupid thing to worry about if you're a talentless team.

I'm not worried about them contending now, I'm worried they will never contend.

Maybe 1 of them is that transcendent talent. Maybe 2 are, or all 3. Maybe none are. By the time they figure out, Philly will have been sucking for 5 years.

My question through all of Philly's tanking strategy has been, how long is the timetable? Would people be OK if none of those 3 were great if they traded all 3 and just started the tank over again ala MCW to get even more draft picks and hope they are the next MJ?

Instead of trying to build the next unbeatable team they could probably have built a contender in 4 years, or at least a competitive team.

ewing
06-26-2015, 10:09 AM
Kahn took Jonny Flynn and Wes Johnson, who sucked balls. Huge balls.

Not even a comparison, sorry.

On top of that, Kahn acted like he was this highly intellectual person who knew more than anyone else in the room. I defended him for clearing cap space and the mess left behind by McFail, but about halfway through his tenure realized McFail was RC Buford compared to Kahn when it came to evaluating talent.

sounds like Hinkie :)

ManRam
06-26-2015, 10:09 AM
I'm not worried about them contending now, I'm worried they will never contend.

Maybe 1 of them is that transcendent talent. Maybe 2 are, or all 3. Maybe none are. By the time they figure out, Philly will have been sucking for 5 years.

My question through all of Philly's tanking strategy has been, how long is the timetable? Would people be OK if none of those 3 were great if they traded all 3 and just started the tank over again ala MCW to get even more draft picks and hope they are the next MJ?

Instead of trying to build the next unbeatable team they could probably have built a contender in 4 years, or at least a competitive team.


What would you have done different in these last 3 drafts? I think that's a better way to get at this. If you don't think taking the best player available is the right move, then what is?

There is no fool proof way to go about rebuilding, but the one shortcut/cheat code to rebuilding is to land the superstar. That's what they're trying to do.

2-ONE-5
06-26-2015, 10:13 AM
just like none of us lost sleep over Gordon, Exum, etc last year no Sixers fans are gonna lose sleep taking Okafor over Mudiay, Porz, Hernz, etc

Wade n Fade
06-26-2015, 10:26 AM
I don't have a problem with the Okafor pick, it's just the late draft and stash for Centers. Noel wasn't the BPA imo. Giannis and MCW would've been better picks together. Noel didn't even do much until maybe late last year.

Look at their PGs now? If the 6ers took Mudi at 3, they would've been fine in my book, but I would say you take Okafor as BPA since he's the best in this class.

valade16
06-26-2015, 10:28 AM
What would you have done different in these last 3 drafts? I think that's a better way to get at this. If you don't think taking the best player available is the right move, then what is?

There is no fool proof way to go about rebuilding, but the one shortcut/cheat code to rebuilding is to land the superstar. That's what they're trying to do.

I agree there is no one correct way to do it, otherwise everyone would do that.

The one question I've had for everyone regarding the 76ers is: how long is the timetable? When should you reasonably expect tangible returns? How long would you be willing to tolerate extreme losing for the eventual payoff?

5 years? 7? 10+?

It just seems like nobody has an answer to that question. We are currently only in year 3 so maybe by next year they turn into a juggernaught, but I doubt it happens that soon. So what is the timetable a 76er fan should reasonably be able to expect a return for all this tanking?

FOXHOUND
06-26-2015, 10:40 AM
:laugh:

Oh wow, well when you put it that way I guess you're right...

Tony_Starks
06-26-2015, 10:43 AM
The only real comparison is that fans are going to continue to defend his "strategy" until it's painfully obvious it didn't work, they are forced to fire him, and the organization is left to clean up the remnants of his grand debacle of a tenure.

FOXHOUND
06-26-2015, 10:55 AM
Trading away their best player and one sure asset that has panned out seems like the exact kind of move the 76ers would make.

So far as I can tell, Hinkie isn't trying to build a team or accumulate assets, he's trying to perpetually suck until the next MJ/Bron/GOAT caliber player comes up and then just take him.

Noel is good, but really he's pretty one dimensional. His ceiling is way lower than the other two, and he's had some playing time and success so his value is much higher than the injured Embiid at this point. Trading Embiid way below value wouldn't make sense to help anything at all, they could move Noel, get a legitimately good player today and then have Embiid and Okafor at the bigs.

Isn't that better than just taking a lesser prospect in Mudiay?

2-ONE-5
06-26-2015, 10:55 AM
I don't have a problem with the Okafor pick, it's just the late draft and stash for Centers. Noel wasn't the BPA imo. Giannis and MCW would've been better picks together. Noel didn't even do much until maybe late last year.

Look at their PGs now? If the 6ers took Mudi at 3, they would've been fine in my book, but I would say you take Okafor as BPA since he's the best in this class.

Noel was the best player and consensus #1 in the class before he got hurt and we took him at 6. not a fan of Giannis at all so was very happy we passed on him.

2-ONE-5
06-26-2015, 10:57 AM
I agree there is no one correct way to do it, otherwise everyone would do that.

The one question I've had for everyone regarding the 76ers is: how long is the timetable? When should you reasonably expect tangible returns? How long would you be willing to tolerate extreme losing for the eventual payoff?

5 years? 7? 10+?

It just seems like nobody has an answer to that question. We are currently only in year 3 so maybe by next year they turn into a juggernaught, but I doubt it happens that soon. So what is the timetable a 76er fan should reasonably be able to expect a return for all this tanking?

kind of expect 30 wins this year if Emiid plays 75% of the games. At the moment a healthy Sixers team is prob better than Boston

ManRam
06-26-2015, 11:00 AM
I agree there is no one correct way to do it, otherwise everyone would do that.

The one question I've had for everyone regarding the 76ers is: how long is the timetable? When should you reasonably expect tangible returns? How long would you be willing to tolerate extreme losing for the eventual payoff?

5 years? 7? 10+?

It just seems like nobody has an answer to that question. We are currently only in year 3 so maybe by next year they turn into a juggernaught, but I doubt it happens that soon. So what is the timetable a 76er fan should reasonably be able to expect a return for all this tanking?

We'll see. I don't think you should set a deadline and rush to get there. Rushing often leads to forcing yourself into shortsighted moves.

I don't think there is an answer to your question. I don't know what their timetable is. I think that's partially because of what we agree upon here: there's no correct or one way to do this. I look at the Magic who have gone about things less controversially, and we're still a ways away...and hell, it's been longer since we've been in playoff contention. I don't think you assume your team can purge all its talent like both teams did and bounce back quickly. Maybe the fans deserve an answer. Maybe Hinkie should come out and say "this is a long process and we hope to be in the playoffs by 2018 and contending shortly after". I don't know. If it takes 5 years, so be it. If they're a championship contender in 7 years, so be it. It will all have been worth it then. Hindsight will be 20/20.

But they've been really bad for 2 years now. They made that (great) trade that signaled they weren't content with 8th seed contention almost exactly 2 years ago. 2 years isn't an eternity, at all. Talking to a lot of people here and you'd think the 76ers are like 5 years into their rebuild. This is year 3. That's fine.

Jamiecballer
06-26-2015, 11:06 AM
He's got massive assets. It's brilliant so long as he uses them properly.

Tony_Starks
06-26-2015, 11:09 AM
He's got massive assets. It's brilliant so long as he uses them properly.

If you think drafting 3 straight centers, 2 of which missed at least one season, is using them properly then I have some real estate I'd like to sell you.....

ManRam
06-26-2015, 11:11 AM
If you think drafting 3 straight centers, 2 of which missed at least one season, is using them properly then I have some real estate I'd like to sell you.....

Name me the players available to them the last 3 drafts that were more talented than the three they took?


Hint: there aren't any.

Jamiecballer
06-26-2015, 11:12 AM
It absolutely is.

First, obviously the fit is terrible. Actually, that's an incorrect statement, there isn't a fit.

Second, these assets he's getting that he can trade later are diminishing in value as we speak. If Embiid misses the time he's purportedly going to miss next season no way they could trade him for the 3rd pick in next year's draft, which is where they got him in the draft they took him, so he actually lost trade value. Same with Noel, unless Noel develops an offensive game people are seeing he's not a well-rounded enough player to be a superstar or franchise player, so no way they would give up a Top 3 pick for him.

I'm not sure many teams would have traded the chance to take Towns/Okafor (or even Russell for that matter) for Noel.

that's a strange way to evaluate trade value. i took him third so i should be able to get a third. does that really make sense to you? if he wanted to trade Noel he could get a high lottery pick and probably another asset or two to boot.

MonroeFAN
06-26-2015, 11:12 AM
Can't fault him for taking BPA. Last year was stupid.

Tony_Starks
06-26-2015, 11:12 AM
If you think drafting 3 straight centers, 2 of which missed at least one season, is using them properly then I have some real estate I'd like to sell you.....

Name me the players available to them the last 3 drafts that were more talented than the three they took?


Hint: there aren't any.

Dylan, Dylan, and Dylan!

KnicksorBust
06-26-2015, 11:15 AM
Name me the players available to them the last 3 drafts that were more talented than the three they took?


Hint: there aren't any.


Yeah honestly any anti-Hinkie arguments are so short-sighted and contain no text. Does anyone think he regrets trading Jrue? MCW? Drafting Noel? Drafting Okafor? Yes he has a problem... too many young talented big men. OH THAT POOR FOOL!

I think he's a genius and similar to Morey it will take some people longer than others to accept it.

Jamiecballer
06-26-2015, 11:17 AM
If you think drafting 3 straight centers, 2 of which missed at least one season, is using them properly then I have some real estate I'd like to sell you.....

he hasn't had the opportunity to use them properly. obviously you have decided already.

ManRam
06-26-2015, 11:20 AM
Yeah honestly any anti-Hinkie arguments are so short-sighted and contain no text. Does anyone think he regrets trading Jrue? MCW? Drafting Noel? Drafting Okafor? Yes he has a problem... too many young talented big men. OH THAT POOR FOOL!

I think he's a genius and similar to Morey it will take some people longer than others to accept it.

The "problem" he has on his roster is either 1. a great problem to have or 2. a problem that doesn't matter in the short term. If you're rebuilding, you gotta get the best talent you can and hope to land a star. Figure out how to fine tune the roster later when it needs to be fine tuned. That's what he's doing, and I'm a broken record now so I'll leave.

Tony_Starks
06-26-2015, 11:22 AM
If you think drafting 3 straight centers, 2 of which missed at least one season, is using them properly then I have some real estate I'd like to sell you.....

he hasn't had the opportunity to use them properly. obviously you have decided already.

The thing is his "master plan" takes years and years to bear actual fruit. Not "assets." Not "flexibility." I mean actual Ws.

He will more than likely be unemployed before this whole tankstrosity can translate into winning which ultimately is a epic fail.

ewing
06-26-2015, 11:26 AM
The "problem" he has on his roster is either 1. a great problem to have or 2. a problem that doesn't matter in the short term. If you're rebuilding, you gotta get the best talent you can and hope to land a star. Figure out how to fine tune the roster later when it needs to be fine tuned. That's what he's doing, and I'm a broken record now so I'll leave.



Everyone gets it. Just lose until a LeBron falls in your lap regardless of how long it takes is not a method that is respected by everyone.

ewing
06-26-2015, 11:28 AM
Yeah honestly any anti-Hinkie arguments are so short-sighted and contain no text. Does anyone think he regrets trading Jrue? MCW? Drafting Noel? Drafting Okafor? Yes he has a problem... too many young talented big men. OH THAT POOR FOOL!

I think he's a genius and similar to Morey it will take some people longer than others to accept it.


If you are willing to lose forever you eventually will land a top talent, this isn't genius.

valade16
06-26-2015, 11:31 AM
that's a strange way to evaluate trade value. i took him third so i should be able to get a third. does that really make sense to you? if he wanted to trade Noel he could get a high lottery pick and probably another asset or two to boot.

I don't think it's a strange way to evaluate trade value. Hinkie's system is to value players and picks simply as assets, so based on their value. That goes down unless they outplay the value of the asset they used to get them.

Do you think the T-Wolves, Lakers or Knicks would have traded their pick for him if they had the top 3 picks (assuming Philly didn't exist)? I simply don't see them trading the chance at Towns, Okafor or Russell to get Noel.

Another example is Embiid. Trust me, as a Blazer fan, if he misses significant portion of this season, his value will plummet. Hopefully for them they either trade him away before that point or he comes back and outplays his value.

valade16
06-26-2015, 11:37 AM
Yeah honestly any anti-Hinkie arguments are so short-sighted and contain no text. Does anyone think he regrets trading Jrue? MCW? Drafting Noel? Drafting Okafor? Yes he has a problem... too many young talented big men. OH THAT POOR FOOL!

I think he's a genius and similar to Morey it will take some people longer than others to accept it.

1st: I noticed you didn't ask if he regrets drafting Embiid, who if he continues to not play may be something he comes to regret a great deal.

2nd: by short-sighted you mean how many years exactly? Because he's now in year 3 of his rebuild and it doesn't look like they are going to be great by next season or even the one after that?

Is looking 6 years into the future short-sighted? How far into the future should we be looking for our teams? As a Blazer fan, should I be fast-forwarding until 2021 to expect us to not suck now that LMA is gone?


I guess the most simplistic way to phrase my question is: in what year can we look at the 76ers and say that Hinkie failed if they are not yet a contender?

2018?
2020?
2030?

Tony_Starks
06-26-2015, 11:41 AM
What Philly is doing is the equivalent of living on skid row, saying you have a fortune in the bank, but you can't access it for like 5 years. Then when someone says hey why don't you get like a regular job and be respectable you say "why would I want a regular job? In a few years IM RICH!"

Then after a few years the bank goes under and you realized you squandered years off your life for nothing.....

Jamiecballer
06-26-2015, 11:43 AM
The thing is his "master plan" takes years and years to bear actual fruit. Not "assets." Not "flexibility." I mean actual Ws.

He will more than likely be unemployed before this whole tankstrosity can translate into winning which ultimately is a epic fail.

well that's your prediction and it might not be true, at all. at this time next year he could be sitting on 3 of the best young bigs having all completed full healthy seasons. it could seem like an embarrassment of riches. judging someone with a patient approach halfway through is folly.

Wade n Fade
06-26-2015, 11:43 AM
Rebuilding through a draft is what Philly should've done, but they haven't. What did that MCW deal accomplish? Nothing. MCW, Okafor, Noel is a solid start. OKC and GSW built through them.

Jamiecballer
06-26-2015, 11:45 AM
I don't think it's a strange way to evaluate trade value. Hinkie's system is to value players and picks simply as assets, so based on their value. That goes down unless they outplay the value of the asset they used to get them.

Do you think the T-Wolves, Lakers or Knicks would have traded their pick for him if they had the top 3 picks (assuming Philly didn't exist)? I simply don't see them trading the chance at Towns, Okafor or Russell to get Noel.

Another example is Embiid. Trust me, as a Blazer fan, if he misses significant portion of this season, his value will plummet. Hopefully for them they either trade him away before that point or he comes back and outplays his value.

right, but lost in all of this, and believe me i get it that not everyone respects it, is that it's a win win. you either strike gold, or you bust and go right back to where you started.

2-ONE-5
06-26-2015, 11:49 AM
Rebuilding through a draft is what Philly should've done, but they haven't. What did that MCW deal accomplish? Nothing. MCW, Okafor, Noel is a solid start. OKC and GSW built through them.

lol what? we have started building through the draft. Im not the biggest fan of the MCW trade but you cant judge it til the picks conveys and the player is drafted. Honestly Wroten, Okafor, Noel, Embiid is pretty much the same thing as that group with MCW.

mike44
06-26-2015, 11:49 AM
Hinkie was hired 2 years ago. When you look at what that team was 2 years ago to now it's pretty impressive what he has done. He's drafted 3 players that could've been number 1 picks.

valade16
06-26-2015, 11:50 AM
right, but lost in all of this, and believe me i get it that not everyone respects it, is that it's a win win. you either strike gold, or you bust and go right back to where you started.

I see the mentality, I just don't view being terrible a win lol.

I'm not even against Hinkie's plan, I'm neutral on it. I don't think we have enough information yet to say what he is doing is genius as a lot of people do because we haven't even begun to see the fruits of that pay off yet.

Which is why I always try to ask: what is the timetable before someone can pass negative judgment on Hinkie's plan? Because so far as I can tell, you can never criticize his plan or strategy because even if it doesn't work out and the 76ers go back to sucking, as you said, that's a win as well.

So in what year can we look and say "you should have tangible results of your efforts"? 2018? 2020? 2030?

ewing
06-26-2015, 11:51 AM
I see the mentality, I just don't view being terrible a win lol.

I'm not even against Hinkie's plan, I'm neutral on it. I don't think we have enough information yet to say what he is doing is genius as a lot of people do because we haven't even begun to see the fruits of that pay off yet.

Which is why I always try to ask: what is the timetable before someone can pass negative judgment on Hinkie's plan? Because so far as I can tell, you can never criticize his plan or strategy because even if it doesn't work out and the 76ers go back to sucking, as you said, that's a win as well.

So in what year can we look and say "you should have tangible results of your efforts"? 2018? 2020? 2030?

good post

Teeboy1487
06-26-2015, 12:00 PM
76ers should have drafted Mudiay. BPA is understandable but their team already had two top prospects at C. They did not need another one. They needed a PG. They should have traded down for Mudiay when Russell was off the board.

beasted86
06-26-2015, 12:01 PM
I have a strong feeling I know the end of this story.

It's not either extreme of the spectrum either: A) building some dynasty through the draft, nor B) tanking forever and never winning like Minnesota

I think the end story is tanking for like 6 years straight and then ending up with a "good" team that isn't capable of winning a championship but fans still lying to themselves to help sleep at night thinking "it was worth it".

They will have blown up an 8th seed team, been a loser for 6 years straight to build a 5th seed team. A close resemblance is the current Wizards who lost for 5 years straight to get to where they are.... which is nowhere... still hoping and praying on some free agent gift from above in the name of Durant. That says enough about the quality of a rebuild to me. If only getting a top 3 player in free agency is the only way to put your team over the top anyone weaker and they still aren't a true contender.

ManRam
06-26-2015, 12:06 PM
Everyone gets it. Just lose until a LeBron falls in your lap regardless of how long it takes is not a method that is respected by everyone.

I think you misunderstand their strategy :laugh:

The "wait til LeBron falls into your lap" is what the huge and attractive markets do. That's what Dallas has tried lately. That's what NYK and MIA tried, with varying levels of success. If you're not LA, MIA, NY or whatever, you don't have that luxury...so they have to get more creative.

Sadds The Gr8
06-26-2015, 12:26 PM
If you are willing to lose forever you eventually will land a top talent, this isn't genius.

The guy who Hinkie is being compared to in the OP says hello.

Hawkeye15
06-26-2015, 12:27 PM
I have a strong feeling I know the end of this story.

It's not either extreme of the spectrum either: A) building some dynasty through the draft, nor B) tanking forever and never winning like Minnesota

I think the end story is tanking for like 6 years straight and then ending up with a "good" team that isn't capable of winning a championship but fans still lying to themselves to help sleep at night thinking "it was worth it".

They will have blown up an 8th seed team, been a loser for 6 years straight to build a 5th seed team. A close resemblance is the current Wizards who lost for 5 years straight to get to where they are.... which is nowhere... still hoping and praying on some free agent gift from above in the name of Durant. That says enough about the quality of a rebuild to me. If only getting a top 3 player in free agency is the only way to put your team over the top anyone weaker and they still aren't a true contender.

funny thing is we never really set out to tank, we just sucked that bad.......:(

The other funny thing is, the Wolves are slowly moving towards your option A......:)

ewing
06-26-2015, 12:30 PM
I think you misunderstand their strategy :laugh:

The "wait til LeBron falls into your lap" is what the huge and attractive markets do. That's what Dallas has tried lately. That's what NYK and MIA tried, with varying levels of success. If you're not LA, MIA, NY or whatever, you don't have that luxury...so they have to get more creative.



how was i mistaken? Lose until you acquire a top shelve talent. Its not genius, actually anyone could do it.

ManRam
06-26-2015, 12:59 PM
how was i mistaken? Lose until you acquire a top shelve talent. Its not genius, actually anyone could do it.

Sorry. I thought you meant through free agency. I literally thought you meant LeBron (which was silly).

But yeah. They realized in 2013 that what they had was a team with limited upside and potentially just perennially vying for 8th seeds. New Orleans gave them the opportunity to fleece them, and they took it. At that point they realized they weren't going to even be contending for 8 seeds so the pawned off the rest of the parts that didn't have long-term value. They bottomed out, cleansed the roster, and started from scratch. It's the right thing to do. I guess you can look at it like "suck until you hit the lottery jackpot", but that's an oversimplification. There's always going to be bad teams. If you're one of them, why not be patient and take this approach? Would you rather them start hurling money and overpaying for FAs like we've seen so many impatient teams cripple themselves by doing? We see time and time again that teams that are impatient and try to stay afloat in FA only end up burning themselves.


I'll ask you this...after they trade Jrue in 2013, what should they have done differently?


If the alternative is being a 9th or 10th seed, well, that's a ****** alternative.

Chronz
06-26-2015, 01:04 PM
Kahn was an idiot who passed up on the best prospects and overpaid for role players

ewing
06-26-2015, 01:21 PM
Sorry. I thought you meant through free agency. I literally thought you meant LeBron (which was silly).

But yeah. They realized in 2013 that what they had was a team with limited upside and potentially just perennially vying for 8th seeds. New Orleans gave them the opportunity to fleece them, and they took it. At that point they realized they weren't going to even be contending for 8 seeds so the pawned off the rest of the parts that didn't have long-term value. They bottomed out, cleansed the roster, and started from scratch. It's the right thing to do. I guess you can look at it like "suck until you hit the lottery jackpot", but that's an oversimplification. There's always going to be bad teams. If you're one of them, why not be patient and take this approach? Would you rather them start hurling money and overpaying for FAs like we've seen so many impatient teams cripple themselves by doing? We see time and time again that teams that are impatient and try to stay afloat in FA only end up burning themselves.


I'll ask you this...after they trade Jrue in 2013, what should they have done differently?


If the alternative is being a 9th or 10th seed, well, that's a ****** alternative.

no it isn't. that is the exact strategy. sure it will come up eventually but it isn't genius it is just lazy. you act like any move made to try and make the team better that isn't preceded by landing a superstar talent defaults to a bad move. Sure its harder to build a winner when you don't have that guy to build around but that why you pay GMs. That's why you want a good one.

Tony_Starks
06-26-2015, 01:32 PM
for those in support of this strategy what is the end game? Eventually become a consistent second tier team in the east? because nothing that has transpired is moving the needle any time soon unless Lebron gets bored with having a pass to the Finals and takes his talents to the West.

Hawkeye15
06-26-2015, 01:37 PM
for those in support of this strategy what is the end game? Eventually become a consistent second tier team in the east? because nothing that has transpired is moving the needle any time soon unless Lebron gets bored with having a pass to the Finals and takes his talents to the West.

1-2 players must become top 15 players for it to really work

valade16
06-26-2015, 01:49 PM
funny thing is we never really set out to tank, we just sucked that bad.......:(

The other funny thing is, the Wolves are slowly moving towards your option A......:)

This is what is so poignant to me. The Wolves definitely did not set out to tank to the extreme Philly has done. They have tried to be competitive even within the confines of rebuilding and to me they have a way brighter future than the 76ers do.

One could argue the Magic, Jazz and Bucks do as well and again, they have all attempted to remain competitive to a degree.

So how effective can the strategy be if 3 years in you are still simply among the unproven young teams.

Which goes back to my question (that never gets answers) when is this thing supposed to end? When can we do a strategic review and demand results?

2-ONE-5
06-26-2015, 02:01 PM
we dont have some crystal ball to know when the team will reach its potential, thats a dumb question to even ask. Our team at the moment, healthy, even relatively healthy is prob a 25-30 win team then next year we have 4 first round picks (hopefully 3 and Miami keeps theirs one more year). Thats our ammo to make a splash if a big move presents itsself.

ManRam
06-26-2015, 02:02 PM
for those in support of this strategy what is the end game? Eventually become a consistent second tier team in the east? because nothing that has transpired is moving the needle any time soon unless Lebron gets bored with having a pass to the Finals and takes his talents to the West.

That's not the goal...but rebuilding isn't fool proof. The goal is to obviously acquire enough talent to truly contend. I've asked time and time again to no good answer, but what did people want Philly to do after they fleeced the Hornets? It's been two years. Two years is no time. People are only *****ing because they're taking a different approach. Winning is always the end game, and if this is the means to that end so be it. It either will work or it won't...but they can try however they damn well please.

What's the end game if you're Denver post-Melo? They went a completely different route and look where they are now. They had a decent run in them, but is any Nuggets fan really stoked with what they've done since? They just prolonged the inevitable. Look at what Detroit did after the Chauncey/Sheed/Ben(being good) era ended? They desperately tried to stay afloat and spent all this money on Ben Gordon and Charlie V and it's set them back years. You could point out a million more of these "we know we're not good but let's try desperately to stay competitive and oh shoot it's 4 years later and we haven't done anything and now we're screwed". Philly is just expediting things. That's good.

ManRam
06-26-2015, 02:04 PM
no it isn't. that is the exact strategy. sure it will come up eventually but it isn't genius it is just lazy. you act like any move made to try and make the team better that isn't preceded by landing a superstar talent defaults to a bad move. Sure its harder to build a winner when you don't have that guy to build around but that why you pay GMs. That's why you want a good one.

Your shortsighted. That's your problem. All you care about are these past two years. You still haven't explained what you'd do differently if you were Hinkie and how that would lead to something better in the future. But of course you haven't...because the alternatives all stink too. Unless you love winning 40 games every year.

KnicksorBust
06-26-2015, 02:12 PM
funny thing is we never really set out to tank, we just sucked that bad.......:(

The other funny thing is, the Wolves are slowly moving towards your option A......:)

This is what is so poignant to me. The Wolves definitely did not set out to tank to the extreme Philly has done. They have tried to be competitive even within the confines of rebuilding and to me they have a way brighter future than the 76ers do.

One could argue the Magic, Jazz and Bucks do as well and again, they have all attempted to remain competitive to a degree.

So how effective can the strategy be if 3 years in you are still simply among the unproven young teams.

Which goes back to my question (that never gets answers) when is this thing supposed to end? When can we do a strategic review and demand results?

A GM should get 4-5 years to flesh out their plan. At that point they should be in the playoffs and have a nice core of 3-4 players with upside to grow. That is the bare minimum. So far the Sixers haven't had their big break. But if they keep putting themselves in position it is bound to happen. I mean realistically look how close they were to starting Russ-Noel-Embiid with tons of cap space. Maybe this was a step back or maybe Okafor and Noel is an even better pairing. I haven't seen him make a move yet that I thought was bad or hurt them in the long term. I think he is a genius and soon the rest of nba fans will see it.

ewing
06-26-2015, 02:31 PM
Your shortsighted. That's your problem. All you care about are these past two years. You still haven't explained what you'd do differently if you were Hinkie and how that would lead to something better in the future. But of course you haven't...because the alternatives all stink too. Unless you love winning 40 games every year.

no i am not. The Jazz won 38 games last year and they are building a winner. Yes some years you win 40 games instead of 60 or 17. Look at what they Hawks have done. How competitive the Rockets were before Harden and D12. If the Sixers didn't play tank all the time they would have to make moves those results wouldn't be land a superstar or suck and play the lotto again. It would take risk, maybe some luck, and GM with skill. my not liking the strategy is not a result of me not understanding it or being short sighted (i've said repeatedly that eventually they would hit the jackpot if they keep doing this). You know, people can disagree with you MANRAM

Jamiecballer
06-26-2015, 02:34 PM
I see the mentality, I just don't view being terrible a win lol.

I'm not even against Hinkie's plan, I'm neutral on it. I don't think we have enough information yet to say what he is doing is genius as a lot of people do because we haven't even begun to see the fruits of that pay off yet.

Which is why I always try to ask: what is the timetable before someone can pass negative judgment on Hinkie's plan? Because so far as I can tell, you can never criticize his plan or strategy because even if it doesn't work out and the 76ers go back to sucking, as you said, that's a win as well.

So in what year can we look and say "you should have tangible results of your efforts"? 2018? 2020? 2030?
i get what you are saying. i think it is genius, in the sense that he's recognized the reality that competing for an NBA championship requires a generational type player and he's going to turn over assets until he finds it. it's either going to result in a top notch contender with the chance for dynasty type status, or fail. there is a sort of we are going to be great or i'll get fired trying that i find a little refreshing, even as the fan in me hates the thought of intentionally "un-competing".

5ass
06-26-2015, 02:35 PM
A GM should get 4-5 years to flesh out their plan. At that point they should be in the playoffs and have a nice core of 3-4 players with upside to grow. That is the bare minimum. So far the Sixers haven't had their big break. But if they keep putting themselves in position it is bound to happen. I mean realistically look how close they were to starting Russ-Noel-Embiid with tons of cap space. Maybe this was a step back or maybe Okafor and Noel is an even better pairing. I haven't seen him make a move yet that I thought was bad or hurt them in the long term. I think he is a genius and soon the rest of nba fans will see it.

I don't think it takes a genius to tank hard and choose the highest rated player.

ewing
06-26-2015, 02:36 PM
I don't think it takes a genius to tank hard and choose the highest rated player.


^^^^

valade16
06-26-2015, 02:36 PM
A GM should get 4-5 years to flesh out their plan. At that point they should be in the playoffs and have a nice core of 3-4 players with upside to grow. That is the bare minimum. So far the Sixers haven't had their big break. But if they keep putting themselves in position it is bound to happen. I mean realistically look how close they were to starting Russ-Noel-Embiid with tons of cap space. Maybe this was a step back or maybe Okafor and Noel is an even better pairing. I haven't seen him make a move yet that I thought was bad or hurt them in the long term. I think he is a genius and soon the rest of nba fans will see it.

Well at least you answered the question with an actual measureable timeline. That's fair. Given that, we definitely can't say Hinkie has failed yet but we can't be certain he will meet that deadline either, so "genius" seems a tad strong a word.

If Philly is in the playoffs and competing in 2-3 years we will see.

valade16
06-26-2015, 02:38 PM
i get what you are saying. i think it is genius, in the sense that he's recognized the reality that competing for an NBA championship requires a generational type player and he's going to turn over assets until he finds it. it's either going to result in a top notch contender with the chance for dynasty type status, or fail. there is a sort of we are going to be great or i'll get fired trying that i find a little refreshing, even as the fan in me hates the thought of intentionally "un-competing".

I suppose I can admire his being unafraid to fail to stick to what he truly believes is the best strategy.

Jamiecballer
06-26-2015, 02:39 PM
Hinkie will move forward when he finds his Michael and Scottie. He will either get it and be a spectacular success or fail, lose his job, in which case it will be all for nothing. Either way I can't criticize him for setting his sights high and being realistic about his chances. Especially since his market seems to have an appetite for it.

KnicksorBust
06-26-2015, 02:41 PM
A GM should get 4-5 years to flesh out their plan. At that point they should be in the playoffs and have a nice core of 3-4 players with upside to grow. That is the bare minimum. So far the Sixers haven't had their big break. But if they keep putting themselves in position it is bound to happen. I mean realistically look how close they were to starting Russ-Noel-Embiid with tons of cap space. Maybe this was a step back or maybe Okafor and Noel is an even better pairing. I haven't seen him make a move yet that I thought was bad or hurt them in the long term. I think he is a genius and soon the rest of nba fans will see it.

I don't think it takes a genius to tank hard and choose the highest rated player.

His tenure as GM of the Sixers has been so much more than that.

Jamiecballer
06-26-2015, 02:49 PM
I suppose I can admire his being unafraid to fail to stick to what he truly believes is the best strategy.

that is exactly how i am viewing it. there are lots of GM's who don't have the stones to swing for the fences.

Ty Fast
06-28-2015, 01:00 AM
or like when matt millen kept drafting WR's

2-ONE-5
06-28-2015, 09:52 AM
or like when matt millen kept drafting WR's

and landed the best one in the game

Wade n Fade
06-28-2015, 11:34 AM
and landed the best one in the game

Every blind squirrel has its day. For every Mega, there are like 10 Mike Williams.

xnj
06-28-2015, 11:38 AM
How many centers is this guy going to take? http://insuranceautocars.com/insurance/images/42.gifhttp://insuranceautocars.com/insurance/images/37.gif

Wade n Fade
06-28-2015, 11:38 AM
I didn't expect this thread to grow this much tbh. The 76ers will either crash and burn or just become blind squirrels with a few lucky acorns. This tanking stuff is an embarrassment to the game though. I mean the 76ers suck, the Flyers suck, and now the Eagles will start to suck even more. The Phillies are also pretty bad too. Haven't the Philly fans gone through enough? As much as it hurts to stick up for them as a Giants fan, but I think they deserve better than tank city.

Vinylman
06-28-2015, 12:31 PM
I didn't expect this thread to grow this much tbh. The 76ers will either crash and burn or just become blind squirrels with a few lucky acorns. This tanking stuff is an embarrassment to the game though. I mean the 76ers suck, the Flyers suck, and now the Eagles will start to suck even more. The Phillies are also pretty bad too. Haven't the Philly fans gone through enough? As much as it hurts to stick up for them as a Giants fan, but I think they deserve better than tank city.

what is an embarrassment is the NBA's willingness to have 30 franchises when the talent available doesn't warrant it...

what is embarrassing is the leagues inability to implement a hard cap during CBA negotiations to insure a competitive product

what is embarrassing is the NBA not implementing Compensatory FA system to insure a competitive product...

Philly is doing what they can within the constraints of the system the NBA has put in place

2-ONE-5
06-28-2015, 02:37 PM
Every blind squirrel has its day. For every Mega, there are like 10 Mike Williams.

but they still had their day and now have had one of the best of all-time.

Wade n Fade
06-28-2015, 04:25 PM
but they still had their day and now have had one of the best of all-time.

Okafor? He hasn't even played a game yet. He looked like a fool today too. If you're referring to AI and past studs, sure you guys have had great guys don the 76ers uniform. However, the past doesn't do much to help Hinkie. He's an awful GM to me still. Morrey crunches numbers too, but he has better success. I would boycott the 76ers if I were a fan because the league won't do anything for awhile. Hit the owners in their books.

Wade n Fade
06-28-2015, 04:27 PM
what is an embarrassment is the NBA's willingness to have 30 franchises when the talent available doesn't warrant it...

what is embarrassing is the leagues inability to implement a hard cap during CBA negotiations to insure a competitive product

what is embarrassing is the NBA not implementing Compensatory FA system to insure a competitive product...

Philly is doing what they can within the constraints of the system the NBA has put in place

Yep, a better cap would force people to at least sign people, but what if Philly wants to pay say Henry Sims $10 mill to meet a floor and hard cap?

2-ONE-5
06-28-2015, 06:00 PM
Okafor? He hasn't even played a game yet. He looked like a fool today too. If you're referring to AI and past studs, sure you guys have had great guys don the 76ers uniform. However, the past doesn't do much to help Hinkie. He's an awful GM to me still. Morrey crunches numbers too, but he has better success. I would boycott the 76ers if I were a fan because the league won't do anything for awhile. Hit the owners in their books.

no detroit with megatron. also how you can u call him an awful GM? he drafted ROY in his first season at 11 (regardless of what followed) and in the same draft got the best player at 6 for a player that has hardly seen the court since. Again this year got arguably the best player in the draft depending on who you ask, regardless of position or current roster there was a clear drop off after 3 just like last year.

Munkeysuit
06-28-2015, 06:12 PM
Hinkie Dinkie