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View Full Version : Since I have to hear about what MJ wouldn't do, and since Lebron shot 39% in finals



joedaheights
06-19-2015, 08:20 PM
And since Kobe and Lebron have made a living out of shooting under 40% and as low as 35% for entire series, who wants to guess the following, since it's not easy to look up ...

At age 30, having won 3 titles, from 1984-1993, in 23 playoff series, how Many times did Michael Jordan, for an entire series:

A) average under 46% FG
B) average under 40% FG

Because, and by the way ... Since people can't wait to ask the question since Kobe won his first title (about what MJ would/wouldn't do in a given modern scenario).. When people say, "if Jordan was on on the cavs this year, who were the extra points going to come from" ... I believe the answer is...

Michael Jordan

Go ahead and start extrapolating Lebron's FGA at 39.8% to 55.8% and see what happens to scores

Dade County
06-19-2015, 08:31 PM
:laugh2: and let it begin...

But the rebounds though, & the assists too.

joedaheights
06-19-2015, 08:37 PM
The rebounds wasn't the problem though. Cleveland not being able to keep up offensively WAS the problem ...

Oh and jordan demonstrated he could:

A) average 11.4 APG in a finals win in which he also scored 31.2 PPG on 55.8% FG
B) average 8 APG for an entire season

Are you gonna guess how many series?

More-Than-Most
06-19-2015, 09:18 PM
Fun fact... Jordan was to busy being bounced from the first round until pippen joined and he had a stacked team.

Raps18-19 Champ
06-19-2015, 09:19 PM
Cavs would have won with Jordan because he gets like 20 FTA per game. And no one would complain about the refs because Jordan never got free calls from the refs.

5ass
06-19-2015, 09:22 PM
The rebounds wasn't the problem though. Cleveland not being able to keep up offensively WAS the problem ...

Oh and jordan demonstrated he could:

A) average 11.4 APG in a finals win in which he also scored 31.2 PPG on 55.8% FG
B) average 8 APG for an entire season

Are you gonna guess how many series?

Lol at your logic there.
Do you want to guess who shot more 3 pt shots? Michael, or LeBron and Kobe?

tredigs
06-19-2015, 09:32 PM
Fun fact... Jordan was to busy being bounced from the first round until pippen joined and he had a stacked team.

Lol, and what teams in was he facing in the first round, lehomer?

papipapsmanny
06-19-2015, 09:56 PM
Fun fact... Jordan was to busy being bounced from the first round until pippen joined and he had a stacked team.

How can you post that and not feel stupid. The bulls were an awful franchise before Jordan, and him getting ousted in the 1st round by one of the best teams/dynasties ever as your argument, is something way beyond a reach.

Alan Shore
06-19-2015, 10:00 PM
Fun fact... Jordan was to busy being bounced from the first round until pippen joined and he had a stacked team.

What a silly post. It actually means you expected Mike to win every year he played, and yes that's how good he was, thanks for reminding us.

The teams he had to face before that, Bad boys and Larry's Celtics, they would eat Lebron alive.

SoxPatsCeltsBs
06-19-2015, 10:07 PM
Fun fact, back when Jordan played the defense was actually allowed to play defense....NBA is like the NFL..all about offense now, which leads to more free throw attempts, looser d, etc. They're both the best of their Era. Leave it at that. But that being said I'd take MJ 24/7....

More-Than-Most
06-19-2015, 11:15 PM
so what the last 3 posts tell me is that Jordan needed a TALENTED TEAM around him to win??????????????????????????????????????????????? ??? SHOCKING.... ****ING SHOCKING...As for the defense the rules were different and it was easier to defend and get away with alot on offense as well and so on... Today players are much bigger and stronger and there is actually a article on this.

More-Than-Most
06-19-2015, 11:17 PM
Fun fact, back when Jordan played the defense was actually allowed to play defense....NBA is like the NFL..all about offense now, which leads to more free throw attempts, looser d, etc. They're both the best of their Era. Leave it at that. But that being said I'd take MJ 24/7....

Id take MJ most of the time but not all of the time... if i had that cavs team and that amount of talent that bron had i am taking bron everytime because of how much he makes the team around him better... that is why its a silly notion that kobe or mj would have done better on this cavs team.

LakerShow
06-19-2015, 11:18 PM
What's with these LeBron threads. :sigh:

More-Than-Most
06-19-2015, 11:19 PM
How can you post that and not feel stupid. The bulls were an awful franchise before Jordan, and him getting ousted in the 1st round by one of the best teams/dynasties ever as your argument, is something way beyond a reach.

and the cavs werent both times that James lost? so its ok to make excuses for one but destroy the other? Lebron had 2 of the 3 worst teams ever he took to the finals... jordan got ousted in the first round with more talent around him

tredigs
06-19-2015, 11:24 PM
and the cavs werent both times that James lost? so its ok to make excuses for one but destroy the other? Lebron had 2 of the 3 worst teams ever he took to the finals... jordan got ousted in the first round with more talent around him

Right... but what you're failing to acknowledge is that when Jordan's Bulls were losing, it was often against dynasty level teams in the early rounds. Lebron plays the Brooklyn Nets. And Jordan never shot as poorly as Lebron against these dynasty teams. That's his point. But whatever, it's to be expected. Jordan's the GOAT scorer, we shouldn't hold Lebron to that standard, he does other things at near GOAT level himself. Although MJ was also playing D on the other teams best perimeter players at that time, and that's a thing of the past for LBJ. Watching him sit lazily on Harrison Barnes in the corner for most of the series was disappointing to say the least.

LivinLakers
06-19-2015, 11:32 PM
Fun fact... Jordan was to busy being bounced from the first round until pippen joined and he had a stacked team.

What a silly post. It actually means you expected Mike to win every year he played, and yes that's how good he was, thanks for reminding us.

The teams he had to face before that, Bad boys and Larry's Celtics, they would eat Lebron alive.
It really is this!!! I am not a Jordan fan at all, but rather an NBA fan, and the teams that Jordan played against we're way tougher to get thru than what The Cavs or the Warriors had to face this year. It really isn't even close. I would take Jordan any day day of the week.
If you are too young to have watched those teams, then don't bother commenting. If you grew up watching them, then you know what I am talking about. The Celtics, the Piston's, the Hawks with Nique, the Cavs were stacked then, even the Knicks and Hornets were tough outs. Really nothing close to compare it with today.

ewing
06-19-2015, 11:50 PM
And since Kobe and Lebron have made a living out of shooting under 40% and as low as 35% for entire series, who wants to guess the following, since it's not easy to look up ...

At age 30, having won 3 titles, from 1984-1993, in 23 playoff series, how Many times did Michael Jordan, for an entire series:

A) average under 46% FG
B) average under 40% FG

Because, and by the way ... Since people can't wait to ask the question since Kobe won his first title (about what MJ would/wouldn't do in a given modern scenario).. When people say, "if Jordan was on on the cavs this year, who were the extra points going to come from" ... I believe the answer is...

Michael Jordan

Go ahead and start extrapolating Lebron's FGA at 39.8% to 55.8% and see what happens to scores

Of course he would have. What was Iggy going to guard him by himself? but he had guys 8 feet away shading towards him :laugh2:

ewing
06-19-2015, 11:58 PM
maybe the warriors could take bogut out the game and use Green for rim protection :laugh2:

ewing
06-20-2015, 12:01 AM
Cavs would have won with Jordan because he gets like 20 FTA per game. And no one would complain about the refs because Jordan never got free calls from the refs.

Bron got a lot of free calls. He clears out every time he tries to get to the bucket and if you think Jordan was played less physically or faced less doubles teams then James you are insane.

ewing
06-20-2015, 12:05 AM
Id take MJ most of the time but not all of the time... if i had that cavs team and that amount of talent that bron had i am taking bron everytime because of how much he makes the team around him better... that is why its a silly notion that kobe or mj would have done better on this cavs team.

yeah those guys around him were awesome. Thompson doesn't rebound without Bron. Delly is scrappy on D without Bron. shump cant D up without Bron. No way Mozzy is a good rim protector without... ahhh **** it

ewing
06-20-2015, 12:07 AM
Seriously though what is MJ worst shooting performance in the playoffs? What are the answers to your questions?

More-Than-Most
06-20-2015, 12:18 AM
Right... but what you're failing to acknowledge is that when Jordan's Bulls were losing, it was often against dynasty level teams in the early rounds. Lebron plays the Brooklyn Nets. And Jordan never shot as poorly as Lebron against these dynasty teams. That's his point. But whatever, it's to be expected. Jordan's the GOAT scorer, we shouldn't hold Lebron to that standard, he does other things at near GOAT level himself. Although MJ was also playing D on the other teams best perimeter players at that time, and that's a thing of the past for LBJ. Watching him sit lazily on Harrison Barnes in the corner for most of the series was disappointing to say the least.

you do realize its pretty well known that even in that decade the east outside of the bulls wasnt that great. yes early on there was tougher competition and yes jordan played against tougher comp but never had the lack of talent james has

tredigs
06-20-2015, 12:24 AM
Seriously though what is MJ worst shooting performance in the playoffs? What are the answers to your questions?

Well, his first 3 playoffs he put up 29/6/9 on 57% TS as a rookie against the Bucks, then 44/6/6 on a 58% TS against Bird's Celtics year 2, and 36/7/6 on a 53% TS against Bird's Celtics again in year 3. I think that was his worst.

tredigs
06-20-2015, 12:27 AM
you do realize its pretty well known that even in that decade the east outside of the bulls wasnt that great. yes early on there was tougher competition and yes jordan played against tougher comp but never had the lack of talent james has

His first 4 seasons he had nothing resembling an elite team and put up incredible #'s against teams better than Lebron has ever played in the East.


Even in year 5 when he had Scottie Pippen and Grant... he didn't yet have that Scottie Pippen and Grant. MJ averaged 29/6/7 on efficiency against the Champion BadBoy Piston's in the ECF's while Pippen 9/7/3 on a 45% TS. Your revisionism (or entirely lacking knowledge) of MJ's teams + his competition is overly apparent. His #2 scorer in the series was Craig Hodges, who averaged 12 PPG. That was year 5 for Mike... and they took the Bad Boy Pistons to 6 games... the Piston's only losses in the post-season, which culminated in a sweep of the Lakers in the Finals. Jordan never lost another series after that, and more importantly, was never the 2nd best player on his team for a series, especially in the Finals.

Bartlee23
06-20-2015, 12:42 AM
A lot of these answers are just constant repeats from very young fans who just started watching basketball post 2000 and really know little to nothing about the game. Those fortunate to have watched in the 70's 80's and 90's IMO saw some really great basketball. That was time when I grew up and witnessed a majority of the best players/teams of all time.

Chicago was a horrible team when Jordan got there.The team was made up of a bunch of druggies and players who were minimum salaried players just to fill a roster. Even when Chicago won their first three peat the team wasn't "stacked " they had Jordan and Pippen who were the best 1+2 in the game ever, Horace Grant,a very well rounded bench and excellent coaching. Jordan's will to win made Pippen a better player as well as other players he played with through out his career. He wanted to win so bad that he would do everything in his power to bring you to his level. That's what makes him the greatest of all time. No one has ever come close to that determination and competitiveness to win and IMO even without Pippen I think Jordan would have found a way to win because he was that good. Keep in mind he was playing against as others have mentioned a few of the greatest teams of all time.

Bartlee23
06-20-2015, 12:47 AM
you do realize its pretty well known that even in that decade the east outside of the bulls wasnt that great. yes early on there was tougher competition and yes jordan played against tougher comp but never had the lack of talent james has

Just out of curiosity did you even watch these games because your comments couldn't be more incorrect?

ewing
06-20-2015, 12:55 AM
It really is this!!! I am not a Jordan fan at all, but rather an NBA fan, and the teams that Jordan played against we're way tougher to get thru than what The Cavs or the Warriors had to face this year. It really isn't even close. I would take Jordan any day day of the week.
If you are too young to have watched those teams, then don't bother commenting. If you grew up watching them, then you know what I am talking about. The Celtics, the Piston's, the Hawks with Nique, the Cavs were stacked then, even the Knicks and Hornets were tough outs. Really nothing close to compare it with today.


their bench was a bunch goons. Will Perdue, Cliff levingston, scott williams, Hodges and Bj could shoot the ball. Cartwright is the one guy who doesn't get love that was a good basketball player when Bulls first became champs.

Phantom Dreamer
06-20-2015, 01:59 AM
Seriously though what is MJ worst shooting performance in the playoffs? What are the answers to your questions?Jordan was 2-22 through 3 quarters in Game 4 of the '97 ECF vs the Heat.

ewing
06-20-2015, 02:10 AM
Jordan was 2-22 through 3 quarters in Game 4 of the '97 ECF vs the Heat.


dude that is a LeBron stat line
http://www.basketball-reference.com/boxscores/199705260MIA.html

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 10:40 AM
Fun fact... Jordan was to busy being bounced from the first round until pippen joined and he had a stacked team.

Fun fact... By a celtics team with 5 hall of famers. Lebron gets sympathy for this series but when mj and freaking Charles Oakley lose to bird, mchale, Parrish and Dennis johnson, that's your fun fact?

FOXHOUND
06-20-2015, 10:49 AM
The only one I know of in the first 3-peat and prior era is the 1993 ECF vs the Knicks when he shot 40%. In the second 3-peat era he actually had a good amount of poor shooting series, but he obviously was older by then.

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 11:09 AM
Lol at your logic there.
Do you want to guess who shot more 3 pt shots? Michael, or LeBron and Kobe?

True shooting percentage nba finals under age 31

Lebron James 2015 finals - 47.7%
Lebron James 2014 finals - 67.9%
Lebron James 2013 finals - 52.9%
Lebron James 2012 finals - 55.8%
Lebron James 2011 finals - 52.8%
Lebron James 2007 finals - 42.8%
Kobe Bryant 2009 finals - 52.5%
Kobe Bryant 2010 finals - 52.8%
Kobe Bryant 2008 finals - 50.5%
Kobe Bryant 2004 finals - 45.6%
Kobe Bryant 2002 finals - 62.3%
Kobe Bryant 2001 finals - 50.1%
Kobe Bryant 2000 finals - 41.1%
Michael Jordan 1993 finals - 55.8%
Michael Jordan 1992 finals - 61.7%
Michael Jordan 1991 finals - 61.2%

You were saying?? Once again, people need to stop speaking about Michael Jordan's career because they don't know what it really was!

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 11:16 AM
I'll reask a different way. What if Lebron's TRUE SHOOTING PERCENTAGE was 61.2% instead of 47.7% in the 2015 Finals. What would the scores have been then?

By the way:

3P%

Lebron James 2015 Finals - 30%
Michael Jordan 1991-93 Finals - 42%

What??

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 11:19 AM
so what the last 3 posts tell me is that Jordan needed a TALENTED TEAM around him to win??????????????????????????????????????????????? ??? SHOCKING.... ****ING SHOCKING...As for the defense the rules were different and it was easier to defend and get away with alot on offense as well and so on... Today players are much bigger and stronger and there is actually a article on this.

Did MJ need the talent Lebron needs though? He had Scottie Pippen and when Pippen matured, he never lost in a full season in which he played for Chicago again.

Lebron had Dwyane Wade and Chris Bosh and lost to:

a) Dirk and a bunch of guys
b) Tim Duncan's corpse

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 11:22 AM
Id take MJ most of the time but not all of the time... if i had that cavs team and that amount of talent that bron had i am taking bron everytime because of how much he makes the team around him better... that is why its a silly notion that kobe or mj would have done better on this cavs team.

In 1991 Michael Jordan, during the NBA Finals averaged 31.2 PPG on 55.8% FG (61.2% TS). He also averaged 11.4 APG.

You're taking the very incorrect "Magic makes his teammates (KAREEM and Worthy LOL) better in a way in which Michael Jordan never could" 1989 LA/Boston media narrative and talking about things you don't know.

MJ, between himself being a better scorer by a full level AND his passing ability, would raise the Cavs offensive output to a higher total than Lebron. Not close.

bklynny67
06-20-2015, 11:23 AM
Fun fact... Jordan was to busy being bounced from the first round until pippen joined and he had a stacked team.
I literally feel dumber every time I read a post from you about James. Seriously, you've convinced me that you are his mother posting, because no one can seriously defend him as much as you do.

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 11:27 AM
and the cavs werent both times that James lost? so its ok to make excuses for one but destroy the other? Lebron had 2 of the 3 worst teams ever he took to the finals... jordan got ousted in the first round with more talent around him

You're really not bright...

In 1986 and 87, Jordan had Charles Oakley and a bunch of guys most BULLS FANS can't even name and lost to Bird, McHale, Parrish, Dennis Johnson and Bill Walton. Walton was noticeably past his prime. The other four WEREN'T. All five were hall of famers.

The 86 Celtics, if they played back to back series v. the 2007 Spurs and 2015 Warriors, probably need 10 or 11 games to eliminate both in succession, maximum.

You don't know what you're talking about. I don't know how many ways I can make that clear to you modernists.

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 11:34 AM
Right... but what you're failing to acknowledge is that when Jordan's Bulls were losing, it was often against dynasty level teams in the early rounds. Lebron plays the Brooklyn Nets. And Jordan never shot as poorly as Lebron against these dynasty teams. That's his point. But whatever, it's to be expected. Jordan's the GOAT scorer, we shouldn't hold Lebron to that standard, he does other things at near GOAT level himself. Although MJ was also playing D on the other teams best perimeter players at that time, and that's a thing of the past for LBJ. Watching him sit lazily on Harrison Barnes in the corner for most of the series was disappointing to say the least.

When Jordan lost, it was because he had Charles Oakley against the Celtics, or because Pippen and Grant couldn't grow up against the Pistons.. something the Pistons openly talk about by the way. The Pistons, when discussing the 1990 Eastern Conference Finals, talk about how "Jordan was the best in the world, and Scottie Pippen just couldn't mentally function."

But here's the thing. You can never point to a series loss by MJ before he started winning and say, "it's BECAUSE of MJ. The Bulls lost and MJ shot 35%" or "The Bulls lost and MJ averaged 20 PPG when he usually averages 30."

Now, to be fair, I don't think anyone takes the 2007 Cavs and beats the Spurs. I think MJ could have been more competitive, maybe won a game or two, but that was a more glaring difference to me than the 2015 Finals. But here's two series losses.

2011 NBA Finals - Lebron's team loses, Lebron averages only 18.9 PPG
2007 NBA Finals - Lebron's team loses, Lebron shoots 35.6%

I want anyone to go to a series loss by MJ, whether you're talking about the 1990 ECF or the 86 first round, before he started winning rings, and find me a series where MJ's team lost and you can find lack of normal production on that level?

As an aside, I believe Kobe shot 38% or less in losses in both the 2004 Finals and 2008 Finals

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 11:36 AM
Seriously though what is MJ worst shooting performance in the playoffs? What are the answers to your questions?

In 23 series from 1984-93, Michael Jordan, for the series:

a) shot under 46% only 4 times
b) shot under 40% 0 times

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 11:38 AM
you do realize its pretty well known that even in that decade the east outside of the bulls wasnt that great. yes early on there was tougher competition and yes jordan played against tougher comp but never had the lack of talent james has

Oh the Boston Celtics and Detroit Pistons weren't great? Dude, it's pretty obvious you weren't there. I'd predict your age at NO older than 28.

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 11:43 AM
their bench was a bunch goons. Will Perdue, Cliff levingston, scott williams, Hodges and Bj could shoot the ball. Cartwright is the one guy who doesn't get love that was a good basketball player when Bulls first became champs.

Well, Cartwright WAS a good player, when he was drafted in the early 80s, not 90s, 80s, by the Knicks. He then went through a string of bad injuries that led Knick fans to nickname him "Medical Bill"... by 1991, he was a shell of a good player who was pretty spent. Those teams were MJ, Pippen, Grant, a "hadn't arrived yet" BJ Armstrong and a lot of stuff that could have been easily replaced by just throwing a net out. Even John Paxson was a guy who hit shots so open that you could have found 10 other guys in the league to play that role.

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 11:45 AM
Jordan was 2-22 through 3 quarters in Game 4 of the '97 ECF vs the Heat.

First, I'd never knock Lebron or Kobe for one game in this context. I think a series gives you a good representation of performance. Unless a player was particularly bad in a game in which his team was closed out, I don't think you get in to one game.

Second, Jordan was 34 in 1997. When Lebron turns 34, he will decline. And then, we'll talk. But he's not there yet.

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 12:00 PM
Let's rank all time, Kobe, Michael, Lebron in TS% for individual series and see who is at the top or bottom of the list and how glaring the list looks:

Bryant 2009 WCF v. Nuggets 62.7%
Jordan 1993 first round v. Hawks 60.2%
Bryant 2009 first round v. Jazz 57.0%
Jordan 1993 NBA Finals v. Suns 55.8%
Jordan 1993 ECSF v. Cavs 55.7%
Bryant 2009 WCSF v. Rockets 53.5%
Lebron 2015 first round v. Celtics 53.0%
Bryant 2009 NBA Finals v. Magic 52.5%
Jordan 1993 ECF v. Knicks 52.2%
Lebron 2015 ECF v. Hawks 50.6%
Lebron 2015 NBA Finals v. Warriors 47.7%
Lebron 2015 ECSF v. Bulls 46.0%

That's them all at 30. I plan to do all seasons 30 and under. Lebron made up 4 of the bottom 6 on that list by the way.

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 12:01 PM
The only one I know of in the first 3-peat and prior era is the 1993 ECF vs the Knicks when he shot 40%. In the second 3-peat era he actually had a good amount of poor shooting series, but he obviously was older by then.

Yeah, we can't really compare until Lebron is that age.. because he will decline also. I'd argue he already is because of the amount of minutes.

BKLYNpigeon
06-20-2015, 12:12 PM
who cares.

blahblahyoutoo
06-20-2015, 12:17 PM
I literally feel dumber every time I read a post from you about James. Seriously, you've convinced me that you are his mother posting, because no one can seriously defend him as much as you do.

to be fair, leFlop's mother's english is no where near as good as his.

FOXHOUND
06-20-2015, 12:38 PM
Yeah, we can't really compare until Lebron is that age.. because he will decline also. I'd argue he already is because of the amount of minutes.

Yeah, his minute output far exceeds Jordan or really anyone at that age, so you have to take that into consideration. You also have to consider this workload particularly the last five seasons now making five straight Finals with some Olympic play in there. I think the same applied for Kobe as he aged, and it will definitely for LeBron where they are aged beyond their years from such heavy workloads throughout their careers.

I don't think it's a coincidence that LeBron not only shot poor in the Finals attempting such a ridiculous volume of everything, but the entire postseason. He shot 41% for the postseason and the only series he shot well in was the first vs Boston.

The question is, when will he get a break? Is there a break? Is there any real risk of a serious decline next season going in after ANOTHER Finals run and long postseason? LeBron is just 30-years old, but his body in basketball years may be more like 33 already.

5ass
06-20-2015, 12:47 PM
True shooting percentage nba finals under age 31

Lebron James 2015 finals - 47.7%
Lebron James 2014 finals - 67.9%
Lebron James 2013 finals - 52.9%
Lebron James 2012 finals - 55.8%
Lebron James 2011 finals - 52.8%
Lebron James 2007 finals - 42.8%
Kobe Bryant 2009 finals - 52.5%
Kobe Bryant 2010 finals - 52.8%
Kobe Bryant 2008 finals - 50.5%
Kobe Bryant 2004 finals - 45.6%
Kobe Bryant 2002 finals - 62.3%
Kobe Bryant 2001 finals - 50.1%
Kobe Bryant 2000 finals - 41.1%
Michael Jordan 1993 finals - 55.8%
Michael Jordan 1992 finals - 61.7%
Michael Jordan 1991 finals - 61.2%

You were saying?? Once again, people need to stop speaking about Michael Jordan's career because they don't know what it really was!

I was saying using fg% is stupid. Glad you figured it out.

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 12:48 PM
Yeah, his minute output far exceeds Jordan or really anyone at that age, so you have to take that into consideration. You also have to consider this workload particularly the last five seasons now making five straight Finals with some Olympic play in there. I think the same applied for Kobe as he aged, and it will definitely for LeBron where they are aged beyond their years from such heavy workloads throughout their careers.

I don't think it's a coincidence that LeBron not only shot poor in the Finals attempting such a ridiculous volume of everything, but the entire postseason. He shot 41% for the postseason and the only series he shot well in was the first vs Boston.

The question is, when will he get a break? Is there a break? Is there any real risk of a serious decline next season going in after ANOTHER Finals run and long postseason? LeBron is just 30-years old, but his body in basketball years may be more like 33 already.

Not that you're a Lebron fan, you seem pretty unbiased, but I'd respond by saying what I often said to Kobe fans... Excuses for why Lebron didn't do something will never be as convincing as someone else actually doing it.

The fact is, if pippen never grew up and jordan never won a ring, he'd be getting butchered forever. No one would be convinced by "well scottie
Had potential but he ended up sucking mentally for his career. So it's basically like mj won 6 rings, since he easily could have if scottie was really good."

FOXHOUND
06-20-2015, 01:00 PM
Not that you're a Lebron fan, you seem pretty unbiased, but I'd respond by saying what I often said to Kobe fans... Excuses for why Lebron didn't do something will never be as convincing as someone else actually doing it.

The fact is, if pippen never grew up and jordan never won a ring, he'd be getting butchered forever. No one would be convinced by "well scottie
Had potential but he ended up sucking mentally for his career. So it's basically like mj won 6 rings, since he easily could have if scottie was really good."

I'm actually the opposite, I don't like LeBron James. At the same time I always try to be fair and balanced and that's how I get to my conclusions on players I like or don't like. I respect his game a lot, but yes he gets a lot of excuses for what things don't happen. The narrative around his career always seems to be that everything happens because of him and in spite of everything else around him, and it's vice versa when he loses. That has always annoyed me.

You also can't ignore his workload in recent years and the effects that can have on a player now and moving forward, but that's life as they say. I'm not going to feel sorry for a player on teams good enough to make the Finals in five straight years, but I'm not going to ignore the potential ramifications of that workload either.

This regular season and postseason he just had, with huge drops in shooting performance, may be a sign of things to come. If it does continue to go this way, or even drop further, I don't see the problem in acknowledging the likelihood that his workload the past 5+ years now could have caused a faster decline.

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 01:11 PM
I'm actually the opposite, I don't like LeBron James. At the same time I always try to be fair and balanced and that's how I get to my conclusions on players I like or don't like. I respect his game a lot, but yes he gets a lot of excuses for what things don't happen. The narrative around his career always seems to be that everything happens because of him and in spite of everything else around him, and it's vice versa when he loses. That has always annoyed me.

You also can't ignore his workload in recent years and the effects that can have on a player now and moving forward, but that's life as they say. I'm not going to feel sorry for a player on teams good enough to make the Finals in five straight years, but I'm not going to ignore the potential ramifications of that workload either.

This regular season and postseason he just had, with huge drops in shooting performance, may be a sign of things to come. If it does continue to go this way, or even drop further, I don't see the problem in acknowledging the likelihood that his workload the past 5+ years now could have caused a faster decline.

I fully acknowledge it. As long as someone isn't trying to use it as an excuse and then take that excuse and use it to elevate him over someone else.

My list, reflecting where I believe Lebrons resume will rank when he retires, and I think it's very reasonable, is as follows:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
2a. Russell
2b. Magic
5. Bird
6. James
7. Duncan
7a. Oneal
9. Bryant
10. Olajuwon

Where's wilt? Anyone who researches the 69 and 70 finals losses by wilt and actually realizes how favored his teams were should know

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-20-2015, 04:32 PM
I fully acknowledge it. As long as someone isn't trying to use it as an excuse and then take that excuse and use it to elevate him over someone else.

My list, reflecting where I believe Lebrons resume will rank when he retires, and I think it's very reasonable, is as follows:

1. Jordan
2. Kareem
2a. Russell
2b. Magic
5. Bird
6. James
7. Duncan
7a. Oneal
9. Bryant
10. Olajuwon

Where's wilt? Anyone who researches the 69 and 70 finals losses by wilt and actually realizes how favored his teams were should know

bird was not as good as Bryant. And he's definitely not going to be considered better than LeBron.

And taking out Wilt because two bad series is ridiculous

papipapsmanny
06-20-2015, 04:42 PM
bird was not as good as Bryant. And he's definitely not going to be considered better than LeBron.

And taking out Wilt because two bad series is ridiculous

How is he not better than Bryant?.

Bird was a better 3 point shooter and shooter overall. Almost doubles Bryant in career rebounds per game, more career assists per game, and more (barely) steals per game.

Bryant for his career has averaged 1 more point per game than Bird, but Bird shot at a 49.6% career rate compared to Bryant's 45.1% career rate.

How exactly is Bird not better than Bryant?

SLY WILLIAMS
06-20-2015, 05:52 PM
I was just watching a series on the Bad Boys. They were 2 Kareem (questionable foul call) free throws away from being a possible 3 peat champion. When discussing the "Jordan Rules" Laimbeer said all we cared about was Jordan. It was Jordan and the Jordaierres. We did not even think of Pippen.

Legend_23
06-20-2015, 05:53 PM
I'm fascinated by you people. "Look at this stat, ohhhh look at that stat..." "But Mike did this, and Lebron does that.." All of you making your arguments for who's better based on stats comparison are so narrow minded and so limited by your tunnel vision. Jordan was a mid-range, back to the basket, spin and fade shooter. Kobe was more of an outside, three point shooter. A child can tell you that if you shoot from further away, you're gonna miss a higher %. Lebron on the other hand, because of his size and strength can get to almost any spot he wants, and take a high % shot. Therefore he is more likely to have a .....
You're arguing about pointless things. Who was guarding MJ in that series? Put THIS finals MVP Iguadala on him, lets see if he shoots 50%. Put Kobe or Lebron in THAT series where MJ shot 61% and lets see what they do...
Lets STOP there, you cant compare their stats when they are playing vs different teams, vs different players, vs different defensive schemes. Im so confused by everyone's attempt to prove who is a better player. Mike, Kobe or Lebron..Specially with stats. IT CAN'T BE DONE. You're coming to a conclusion based on a meaningless comparison of numbers. Individual rankings in team sports are incredibly stupid to begin with. The ONLY way you can do a comparison of individuals in team sports, is if you place both players in the EXACT same circumstances. Same coaches, same teamates, same opponents etc. But that is also impossible. It can't be done, it can't be replicated.
Instead, you should enjoy each player, his/hers abilities, their records etc. Basketball is a TEAM sport, there is much more to it than a FG% of 1 player that has to do with success or failure of a team.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-20-2015, 06:31 PM
How is he not better than Bryant?.

Bird was a better 3 point shooter and shooter overall. Almost doubles Bryant in career rebounds per game, more career assists per game, and more (barely) steals per game.

I don't want to derail the thread too much but every thing you just listed is worthless without the context being added that Birds league/team averaged 102.5 possessions per game. While Bryants team/league averaged only 91 possessions per game. That is 11.5 more opportunities for a counting stat. Needless to say, a 25 point scoring average by Bird is less impressive then a 23 point scoring average by Bryant. Pace matters


Bryant for his career has averaged 1 more point per game than Bird, but Bird shot at a 49.6% career rate compared to Bryant's 45.1% career rate.

Field goal percentage is a worthless stat. TS% is a better indicator. And Bryant and Bird are at 56.4 and 55.6.


How exactly is Bird not better than Bryant?

You also took career averages of one guy who only played 13 years and the other who has played 19. So you are looking at career averages of a 18 year old and his decline, vs a guy who started in the league at 23 and retired at 35. Kobes averages for a 13 year span are 28, 5.8, 5.2 in a much slower paced league.

Bryants defensive league rating average was 103. While during Birds time the NBA'S drtg was an average of 107. So the defenses were more stingy for Bryants career.

PER takes pace into account and that shows Bryant had an advantage there. Bryant was also a better defender and that is half the game.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-20-2015, 06:37 PM
I was just watching a series on the Bad Boys. They were 2 Kareem (questionable foul call) free throws away from being a possible 3 peat champion. When discussing the "Jordan Rules" Laimbeer said all we cared about was Jordan. It was Jordan and the Jordaierres. We did not even think of Pippen.

Well, their 89 title has a huge asterisk because they beat a Laker team who was undefeated going into finals before Scott and Magic missed the series due to injury. Magic should be 6-3 in the finals

PurpleJesus
06-20-2015, 06:38 PM
"Since I have to hear about what MJ wouldn't do, and since Lebron shot 39% in finals"

sounds like a selfish thread.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-20-2015, 07:35 PM
so what the last 3 posts tell me is that Jordan needed a TALENTED TEAM around him to win??????????????????????????????????????????????? ??? SHOCKING.... ****ING SHOCKING...As for the defense the rules were different and it was easier to defend and get away with alot on offense as well and so on... Today players are much bigger and stronger and there is actually a article on this.

Your post make my head hurt

jericho
06-20-2015, 07:47 PM
More than most went into hiding hahaha

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 08:00 PM
bird was not as good as Bryant. And he's definitely not going to be considered better than LeBron.

And taking out Wilt because two bad series is ridiculous

Bird was not as good as Bryant? He led his team to 3 rings when Kobe only led his team to two, he didn't lose two nba finals where he only shot 38% and he and Shaq wouldn't have lost to the Detroit pistons. Also I really don't see bird getting dropped 4-1 by Steve Nash. My guess is you've never seen a bird led team transcend their individual ability and you've never seen him operate on a good team.

Wilt should have had four rings. He has two because he loses series and you can't explain why he's losing.

Kobe Bryant better than Larry bird. That's hilarious

As for Lebron, he can be considered better. He's infinitely more physically gifted. But if he doesn't win more rings he won't be considered better.

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 08:10 PM
I don't want to derail the thread too much but every thing you just listed is worthless without the context being added that Birds league/team averaged 102.5 possessions per game. While Bryants team/league averaged only 91 possessions per game. That is 11.5 more opportunities for a counting stat. Needless to say, a 25 point scoring average by Bird is less impressive then a 23 point scoring average by Bryant. Pace matters



Field goal percentage is a worthless stat. TS% is a better indicator. And Bryant and Bird are at 56.4 and 55.6.



You also took career averages of one guy who only played 13 years and the other who has played 19. So you are looking at career averages of a 18 year old and his decline, vs a guy who started in the league at 23 and retired at 35. Kobes averages for a 13 year span are 28, 5.8, 5.2 in a much slower paced league.

Bryants defensive league rating average was 103. While during Birds time the NBA'S drtg was an average of 107. So the defenses were more stingy for Bryants career.

PER takes pace into account and that shows Bryant had an advantage there. Bryant was also a better defender and that is half the game.

Did bird ever lose a series in which he shot 38%? Kobe shot 38.1% when LA lost the 2004 Finals. Shaq shot 63.1% but took 29 fewer shots than Bryant, who wasn't gonna "hold his game back for oneal" anymore. Oh and before anyone flips out Kobe's TS% was only 45.6%.

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 08:15 PM
Well, their 89 title has a huge asterisk because they beat a Laker team who was undefeated going into finals before Scott and Magic missed the series due to injury. Magic should be 6-3 in the finals

Can laker fans just go away forever. Magic was injured in game 2 AGAINST DETROIT. he pulled his hamstring trying to guard Joe Dumars.

Kind of how laker fans love to talk about how worthy and Scott were hurt during the 91 finals when in reality they each sat the final game after being down 3-1.

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 08:22 PM
"Since I have to hear about what MJ wouldn't do, and since Lebron shot 39% in finals"

sounds like a selfish thread.

Look when Lebron does something good, I'm not sitting there like "MJ could have done better." I only get irritated when every time Kobe or Lebron does something, people who are nowhere to be found when he's failing have to make it about MJ first. They keep asking a question and then everyone else is "obsessed with the past" when they give a Mfing answer

PurpleJesus
06-20-2015, 08:24 PM
Look when Lebron d

I have no idea what that means.

hidalgo
06-20-2015, 08:42 PM
pretty crazy that MJ was never outplayed in a playoff series, & never had even 1 bad playoff series. 1 or 2 series can be argued, but MJ was doubled so much more & still got the W for his team that you gotta give it to him. think about this, not 1 bad playoff series, & never outplayed by any player in a playoff series, EVER. INSANE. GOAT

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-20-2015, 10:24 PM
Can laker fans just go away forever. Magic was injured in game 2 AGAINST DETROIT. he pulled his hamstring trying to guard Joe Dumars.

Kind of how laker fans love to talk about how worthy and Scott were hurt during the 91 finals when in reality they each sat the final game after being down 3-1.

So if Pippen goes down in 91 before the series starts, and the Bulls lose game one, then with the Bulls up by 9 in the first half of game 2 MJ pulls his hammy and is out for the series, do the Bulls and MJ get knocked as a finals loss? Or would jock sniffers like you try to bring context when someone says Jordan was 5-1 in the finals? Of course you would. So stfu

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-20-2015, 10:28 PM
Bird was not as good as Bryant? He led his team to 3 rings when Kobe only led his team to two, he didn't lose two nba finals where he only shot 38% and he and Shaq wouldn't have lost to the Detroit pistons. Also I really don't see bird getting dropped 4-1 by Steve Nash. My guess is you've never seen a bird led team transcend their individual ability and you've never seen him operate on a good team.

Wilt should have had four rings. He has two because he loses series and you can't explain why he's losing.

Kobe Bryant better than Larry bird. That's hilarious

As for Lebron, he can be considered better. He's infinitely more physically gifted. But if he doesn't win more rings he won't be considered better.


Did bird ever lose a series in which he shot 38%? Kobe shot 38.1% when LA lost the 2004 Finals. Shaq shot 63.1% but took 29 fewer shots than Bryant, who wasn't gonna "hold his game back for oneal" anymore. Oh and before anyone flips out Kobe's TS% was only 45.6%.

So you rank players based on if they had a bad series or not? So Kobes bad 5 games of 2004 is what drops him? And Wilts two bad series drops him out of the top 10? LMFAO!! You shouldn't be allowed to debate about basketball. You're ill equipped.

DODGERS&LAKERS
06-20-2015, 10:33 PM
pretty crazy that MJ was never outplayed in a playoff series, & never had even 1 bad playoff series. 1 or 2 series can be argued, but MJ was doubled so much more & still got the W for his team that you gotta give it to him. think about this, not 1 bad playoff series, & never outplayed by any player in a playoff series, EVER. INSANE. GOAT

He was the greatest. There is no one denying that. I love the Lakers but when me and my little brother were little we would play one on one and he was always Magic, and i was always MJ. I copied his every move down to the tongue. Hes the best

Munkeysuit
06-21-2015, 12:09 AM
Lebron James ...you either love to hate him or hate to admit you love him.

joedaheights
06-21-2015, 04:21 AM
So if Pippen goes down in 91 before the series starts, and the Bulls lose game one, then with the Bulls up by 9 in the first half of game 2 MJ pulls his hammy and is out for the series, do the Bulls and MJ get knocked as a finals loss? Or would jock sniffers like you try to bring context when someone says Jordan was 5-1 in the finals? Of course you would. So stfu

Context is fine. Where you made the mistake was acting like, since Scott was hurt and magic got hurt, it's basically like magic won... That he "should have been 6-3"...

Excuses for why you don't will never be as convincing as someone actually doing something. And I don't have to sniff jocks. MJ was better than Magic, Kobe, wilt, Kareem, west, Baylor, Shaq... And everyone who ever played for LA. Who needs to sniff jocks to know that??

joedaheights
06-21-2015, 04:26 AM
So you rank players based on if they had a bad series or not? So Kobes bad 5 games of 2004 is what drops him? And Wilts two bad series drops him out of the top 10? LMFAO!! You shouldn't be allowed to debate about basketball. You're ill equipped.

Well you're splitting hairs amongst the elite... Yes, when you're talking about players who led their teams to 2 or 3 rings ... Five bad NBA FINALS games can make a tremendous difference. Why is that hard to understand??

Bird led his team to 3 rings. Kobe led two title teams ... 2 is less than 3. If Kobe has two more great games in the 08 finals it's a tie.

What are you suggesting? That I say that bird had MORE great games, but only by 5, so he's WORSE?? Why? Cause you like Kobe.

I'm a bulls fan... Bird > Kobe

joedaheights
06-21-2015, 04:27 AM
He was the greatest. There is no one denying that. I love the Lakers but when me and my little brother were little we would play one on one and he was always Magic, and i was always MJ. I copied his every move down to the tongue. Hes the best

Are you actually Kobe Bryant himself?? lol

Phantom Dreamer
06-21-2015, 04:56 AM
Jordan was 2-22 through 3 quarters in Game 4 of the '97 ECF vs the Heat.

First, I'd never knock Lebron or Kobe for one game in this context. I think a series gives you a good representation of performance. Unless a player was particularly bad in a game in which his team was closed out, I don't think you get in to one game.

Second, Jordan was 34 in 1997. When Lebron turns 34, he will decline. And then, we'll talk. But he's not there yet.Jordan did have a great 4th quarter. He played a bunch of golf the day before.