PDA

View Full Version : Would a prime Kobe have beat the Warriors in the Finals with this Cavs squad?



Pages : [1] 2

lol, please
06-18-2015, 03:31 PM
Take Lebron off the team, Kyrie and Love are still injured, the rest of the Cavaliers roster remains intact, and we add a prime Black Mamba. How does this series end?

sportsfanatic99
06-18-2015, 03:33 PM
i meant to vote Dubs in 4

bucketss
06-18-2015, 03:34 PM
dubs in 4.

HoopsDrive
06-18-2015, 03:36 PM
Ws in 4

kovacs22
06-18-2015, 03:40 PM
No. If Lebron can't do it, Kobe probably can't, especially since he'd be w/o a strong supporting cast.

kovacs22
06-18-2015, 03:41 PM
I also argue that MJ wouldn't be able to do it.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-18-2015, 03:54 PM
cavs in 6/7

Tony_Starks
06-18-2015, 04:01 PM
yep. probably would've had to average 50 on low percentages but still.....yep.

FraziersKnicks
06-18-2015, 04:17 PM
No. He couldn't take a slightly better supporting cast (04-05 Lakers) to an 8th seed. No way is he even taking a game off one of the greatest teams in recent memory in the Finals.

Warriors in 4.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 04:19 PM
LOL, not a chance.

Put it this way, we saw Kobe without talent lose 4-1 to a team inferior to these Warriors in the Phx Suns. The year prior he pushed them to 7 when they were without their most productive player in Amare. And this is barely the first round much less after playing 3 series.

I think if the Cavs had Peak Bron they still lose but its alot closer. Bron is the best at carrying scrubs precisely because he can do so much and fill in in so many areas. Kobe wouldn't have rebounded and would have stunted one of the few advantages Cleveland had.

Kobe has only had 1 50PT game that I can remember and that was when Phoenix was forced to play without their defensive SG.

Avenged
06-18-2015, 04:19 PM
If he decides to go Colby Brian maybe he has a chance.

SportsFanatic10
06-18-2015, 04:52 PM
LOL at the people saying yes. There's no way he does it if Lebron couldn't. He wouldn't rebound and facilitate as well as Lebron did. He'd maybe score a bit more on likely even worse efficiency and without as many rebounds and assists. I don't see how that would translate into more wins for the Cavs.

Vinylman
06-18-2015, 05:12 PM
talk about a stupid thread...

nobody was beating GS with a decimated team...

Dubs fans should just be glad they didn't have to face a full strength Cleveland

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-18-2015, 05:14 PM
Warriors in 7. Kobe was better in his prime than bron, and a much better leader/closer

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-18-2015, 05:14 PM
LOL at the people saying yes. There's no way he does it if Lebron couldn't. He wouldn't rebound and facilitate as well as Lebron did. He'd maybe score a bit more on likely even worse efficiency and without as many rebounds and assists. I don't see how that would translate into more wins for the Cavs.

LeBron could put up fancy statlines all the time but he's no winner.

We've seen this gazillion times and people are still in doubt.

Truth is out there.

mngopher35
06-18-2015, 05:15 PM
No, warriors still easily win. Kobe could've done the scoring but not the facilitating or rebounding. They might win a game when he got hot though.

Not a knock on anyone though. I'm not sure there has been a star that could have (even peak bron who is the best fit).

5ass
06-18-2015, 05:20 PM
No they'd have no shot because LeBron is better than Kobe.

SportsFanatic10
06-18-2015, 05:36 PM
LeBron could put up fancy statlines all the time but he's no winner.

We've seen this gazillion times and people are still in doubt.

Truth is out there.

Winner or not in your opinion it doesn't matter, better is better and Lebron is better than Kobe ever was quite simply. His all around game is also much better suited for plugging all the holes of a weak roster as well.

ChitownSports16
06-18-2015, 05:38 PM
I think Cavs would lose in 7

Chronz
06-18-2015, 05:39 PM
LeBron could put up fancy statlines all the time but he's no winner.

We've seen this gazillion times and people are still in doubt.

Truth is out there.

What exactly is it you think "we've" seen?

GREATNESS ONE
06-18-2015, 05:44 PM
Witness

Gander13SM
06-18-2015, 05:50 PM
I feel like Kobe would have been more comfortable playing the role LeBron was playing. Kobe loves being the focus offensively. He loves chucking up 40+ shots. LeBron can do it, clearly. But it's outside of his comfort zone imo he's more of a team guy.

One thing is for sure, that lack of aggressiveness Lebron displayed in game 6 would not have been an issue for Kobe.

Shaq would have been better in LeBron's place.

Shaq - Thompson - Shump - Smith - Delly.

Just give the ball to Shaq all game. If it was pre 2003 he could have destroyed them with that bully ball. Bogut wouldn't have known what hit him. And playing small? LOL. Green can defend any position but Shaq was no ordinary center.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-18-2015, 05:52 PM
LeBron could put up fancy statlines all the time but he's no winner.

We've seen this gazillion times and people are still in doubt.

Truth is out there.

What exactly is it you think "we've" seen?

Lebron choke/give up celtics/magic

And get smoked in 4/6 finals.

Sorry bro, bron just isn't what you guys would like him to be

xnick5757
06-18-2015, 06:02 PM
Alok Pattani @AlokPattaniESPN
Players w/ 10 PS gm-tying/go-ahead FGA in last 24 sec of Q4/OT since '97 via @nbastats. LeBron most FGM & 2nd-best %.


https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CEvCSyjWgAExYCF.png:large



any suggestion that Kobe is "more clutch" than Lebron is laughable


http://images.complex.com/complex/image/upload/t_in_content_image/dfx6ptjc4ztunyf0wrrq.png




Warriors in 7. Kobe was better in his prime than bron, and a much better leader/closer

:rolleyes:

ball don't lie

Chronz
06-18-2015, 06:08 PM
Lebron choke/give up celtics/magic

And get smoked in 4/6 finals.

Sorry bro, bron just isn't what you guys would like him to be
Let the grown up I quoted answer my question. You already know I dont give 2 ***** about your unsubstantiated opinions. Im talking about facts here. Losing in the Finals is MUCH better than losing beforehand so plz stop embarrassing yourself.

JasonJohnHorn
06-18-2015, 06:10 PM
Since Kobe would NEVER put up rebounding and assist numbers like that, no. They wouldn't even do as well as they did.

JasonJohnHorn
06-18-2015, 06:14 PM
Lebron choke/give up celtics/magic

And get smoked in 4/6 finals.

Sorry bro, bron just isn't what you guys would like him to be

Like when Kobe choked against the Celtics? Or the Pistons? Or the Mavs? Or the Suns... TWICE. Or the Thunder? Or the Spurs?

Kobe's lost lots of series. And he never played with as poor a roster as LBJ never had the roster in Cleveland that was as good as the roster's Kobe played with. He's never had a guy as dominant as prime Shaq to play off.

jerellh528
06-18-2015, 06:22 PM
Who knows. A set of bigs like mozgov and Thompson would be in perfect position with Kobe as their leader vs a small gs team. He would've scored just as much as lebron or more but on better efficiency. Would've put the bigs in the best positions to succeed because Kobe has always played well with a big and knows how to fully use them to his advantage. Especially vs a small team like the Warriors. He wouldn't have gotten the rebounds, but he would've let his bigs do their job and rebound, unlike lebron who was under the basket after every missed shot, even taking rebounds away from his own guys. Kobe would've stayed back and prevented outlets that gs loves. Also Kobe would've played better defense that lebron did and Kobe is a better passer, even though he doesn't pass as often. also don't think Kobe would've broke down every game like lebron did. Lebron had the cavs in decent position, but ran outta gas every time. Don't think that's a prob with Kobe. Also feel like Kobe is a better motivator and leader than lebron, he would've gotten the most outta his guys and would've killed jr for making so many dumb plays. This is just my opinion and obviously only counts if warriors played as bad as they did vs the cavs. If they played the way they did all year I don't think anyone could've beat them, not even mj.

HoopsDrive
06-18-2015, 06:25 PM
Bait thread lol. Any sane person knows LeBron is much better suited for a team with only role players due to his playstyle than Kobe. He facilitates, rebounds, can play post and perimeter defense, lead a fast break, etc. This team is not ideal for someone like Kobe and wouldn't be constructed this way.

It's not a knock on Kobe that he would probably be swept in this scenario but a testament to how versatile LeBron really is.

JordansBulls
06-18-2015, 06:34 PM
Kobe had peak Shaq and they lost in the finals to an inferior team.

Tony_Starks
06-18-2015, 06:35 PM
Assuming most of you are at least somewhat knowledgeable basketball fans at heart, ask yourself a question: who is more suited to singlehandedly win a series in which you have absolutely no choice than to shoot shoot shoot, percentage be damned, to have any shot at winning? The guy who is a pass first player with a iffy jumper, below average 3 and unreliable free throws? Or the guy that has scored 81, outscored a whole team (literally), and has unlimited range and makes his free throws?

If you can say Lebron with a straight face you really may be watching the wrong sport.

Like seriously imagine going into a series saying: Kobe I need you to be completely selfish this series, score as much as you possibly can,everybody else has to get the scraps.

Its a dream come true!

More-Than-Most
06-18-2015, 06:41 PM
Dubs in 4 or 5.... Kobe has the iverson effect... He can win you a game by himself but he wouldnt come close to what James did and the warriors would put them away pretty easily

Sadds The Gr8
06-18-2015, 06:44 PM
Dubs in 4 or 5. Whoever thinks the Cavs would win is on the Lamar Odom crack

SportsFanatic10
06-18-2015, 06:56 PM
Assuming most of you are at least somewhat knowledgeable basketball fans at heart, ask yourself a question: who is more suited to singlehandedly win a series in which you have absolutely no choice than to shoot shoot shoot, percentage be damned, to have any shot at winning? The guy who is a pass first player with a iffy jumper, below average 3 and unreliable free throws? Or the guy that has scored 81, outscored a whole team (literally), and has unlimited range and makes his free throws?

If you can say Lebron with a straight face you really may be watching the wrong sport.

Like seriously imagine going into a series saying: Kobe I need you to be completely selfish this series, score as much as you possibly can,everybody else has to get the scraps.

Its a dream come true!

Lebron's jumper isn't as iffy as you make it seem lol...

3PTM: Lebron 1256, Kobe 1694
3PTA: Lebron 3671, Kobe 5079

3PTM Per Game: Lebron 1.4, Kobe 1.3
3PTA Per Game: Lebron 4.0, Kobe 4.0

3PT%: Lebron .342, Kobe .334

More-Than-Most
06-18-2015, 07:00 PM
Assuming most of you are at least somewhat knowledgeable basketball fans at heart, ask yourself a question: who is more suited to singlehandedly win a series in which you have absolutely no choice than to shoot shoot shoot, percentage be damned, to have any shot at winning? The guy who is a pass first player with a iffy jumper, below average 3 and unreliable free throws? Or the guy that has scored 81, outscored a whole team (literally), and has unlimited range and makes his free throws?

If you can say Lebron with a straight face you really may be watching the wrong sport.

Like seriously imagine going into a series saying: Kobe I need you to be completely selfish this series, score as much as you possibly can,everybody else has to get the scraps.

Its a dream come true!

how about the guy that out scores/rebounds/assists both teams in a finals?

bucketss
06-18-2015, 07:05 PM
did someone just say kobe is a better passer than lebron?

papipapsmanny
06-18-2015, 07:07 PM
Nope only one who would have a chance is MJ. Lebron couldn't do it and he is better than Kobe

Munkeysuit
06-18-2015, 07:07 PM
No! just no! Kobe couldn't win anything without a big man in his prime years...Kobe won 3 with Shaq, Shaq leaves, Kobe doesn't even go back to the finals for another 6 years AND loses to Nash twice in MVP voting (at his prime)
As soon as Pau and Bynum comes along, BOOM! Kobe wins another 2 rings...I love Kobe, he's easily the best Laker of all time and top 10 players of all time as well! but we give him too much respect for being a solo act.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 07:14 PM
Assuming most of you are at least somewhat knowledgeable basketball fans at heart, ask yourself a question: who is more suited to singlehandedly win a series in which you have absolutely no choice than to shoot shoot shoot, percentage be damned, to have any shot at winning? The guy who is a pass first player with a iffy jumper, below average 3 and unreliable free throws? Or the guy that has scored 81, outscored a whole team (literally), and has unlimited range and makes his free throws?

If you can say Lebron with a straight face you really may be watching the wrong sport.

Like seriously imagine going into a series saying: Kobe I need you to be completely selfish this series, score as much as you possibly can,everybody else has to get the scraps.

Its a dream come true!

Any knowledgeable fan knows the game goes beyond scoring. Even then, Kobe has never shouldered a load like Bron just did, the last time we could contemplate him doing so, he was eliminated in R.1 against an inferior team to the Dubs.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 07:22 PM
I feel like Kobe would have been more comfortable playing the role LeBron was playing. Kobe loves being the focus offensively. He loves chucking up 40+ shots. LeBron can do it, clearly. But it's outside of his comfort zone imo he's more of a team guy.

One thing is for sure, that lack of aggressiveness Lebron displayed in game 6 would not have been an issue for Kobe.
Dont be so sure, you're talking about a guy who refused to shoot in an elimination game when his team was down desperately in need of scoring, this after he just had the best scoring season of his career.


Shaq would have been better in LeBron's place.

Shaq - Thompson - Shump - Smith - Delly.

Just give the ball to Shaq all game. If it was pre 2003 he could have destroyed them with that bully ball. Bogut wouldn't have known what hit him. And playing small? LOL. Green can defend any position but Shaq was no ordinary center.


Agreed. Its why I grade Shaq above both of them, he would have DEMANDED constant doubles despite his lack of range.

Hawkeye15
06-18-2015, 07:31 PM
It would be a sweep, maybe 4-1. Kobe had a team devoid of talent in the 06' playoffs (Odom was better than anything LeBron had in the finals after game 1 btw), and still lost to a team that was inferior to these Warriors in 5 games.

There is no way on earth I can see an outcome where Kobe wins more than 1 game against these Warriors, and I think 2-3 of the games are laughers.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 07:32 PM
Who knows. A set of bigs like mozgov and Thompson would be in perfect position with Kobe as their leader vs a small gs team. He would've scored just as much as lebron or more but on better efficiency. Would've put the bigs in the best positions to succeed because Kobe has always played well with a big and knows how to fully use them to his advantage. Especially vs a small team like the Warriors. He wouldn't have gotten the rebounds, but he would've let his bigs do their job and rebound, unlike lebron who was under the basket after every missed shot, even taking rebounds away from his own guys. Kobe would've stayed back and prevented outlets that gs loves. Also Kobe would've played better defense that lebron did and Kobe is a better passer, even though he doesn't pass as often. also don't think Kobe would've broke down every game like lebron did. Lebron had the cavs in decent position, but ran outta gas every time. Don't think that's a prob with Kobe. Also feel like Kobe is a better motivator and leader than lebron, he would've gotten the most outta his guys and would've killed jr for making so many dumb plays. This is just my opinion and obviously only counts if warriors played as bad as they did vs the cavs. If they played the way they did all year I don't think anyone could've beat them, not even mj.

If Kobe is out there I doubt GS goes small. They stay big, load the strongside box and watch as Kobe lacks the vision to find his teammates at the same level. LOL @ thinking he took rebounds away from his bigs when the entire gameplan was to enhance his bigs rebounding (OFFENSIVELY). Kobe wouldn't have played better defense if he had to shoulder this load so no on that end.

WOW. You just said Kobe is a better passer......... based on wat exactly? Him not passing as much isn't an argument, I havent checked but feel free to tell me their passing turnovers vs assists. What exactly would you be basing that hilarious opinion on? Keep in mind, you're talking about a player who refused to listen to his coach when asked to defer and then took that deferential treatment to the extreme when his team needed scoring. Kobe is too extreme in his approach and it seems like he has an agenda to prove. Phil wants him to pass to Shaq more and he chucks vs Detroit. Then against the Suns, the team is down and losing and he sticks to passing to the point where he takes very little shots. Not to mention the numerous times he pouted during RS.

Kobe is too volatile to act like hes a better passer.

Dade County
06-18-2015, 07:33 PM
No one could.

Hawkeye15
06-18-2015, 07:34 PM
Assuming most of you are at least somewhat knowledgeable basketball fans at heart, ask yourself a question: who is more suited to singlehandedly win a series in which you have absolutely no choice than to shoot shoot shoot, percentage be damned, to have any shot at winning? The guy who is a pass first player with a iffy jumper, below average 3 and unreliable free throws? Or the guy that has scored 81, outscored a whole team (literally), and has unlimited range and makes his free throws?

If you can say Lebron with a straight face you really may be watching the wrong sport.

Like seriously imagine going into a series saying: Kobe I need you to be completely selfish this series, score as much as you possibly can,everybody else has to get the scraps.

Its a dream come true!

Kobe's approach (shoot, shoot, shoot) never works with that talent disparity that much. He can't outscore the Warriors by himself. And lord knows he isn't getting anyone else involved with those odds. That is easy offense to guard. Hence why in last possession games the Lakers, with Kobe went from 103+ points per 100 possessions, to the mid 80's per 100 points per one hundred possessions. The defense just walled up around Kobe, cause they know he is shooting, world be damned.

If he came in with that approach, Cavs swept by an average margin of 15

Chronz
06-18-2015, 07:37 PM
It would be a sweep, maybe 4-1. Kobe had a team devoid of talent in the 06' playoffs (Odom was better than anything LeBron had in the finals after game 1 btw), and still lost to a team that was inferior to these Warriors in 5 games.

There is no way on earth I can see an outcome where Kobe wins more than 1 game against these Warriors, and I think 2-3 of the games are laughers.

Yeah, I want to say Kobe could win maybe 1-2 games with his gunner mindset, but the losses? Man they would have been far uglier.

SportsFanatic10
06-18-2015, 07:37 PM
Who knows. A set of bigs like mozgov and Thompson would be in perfect position with Kobe as their leader vs a small gs team. He would've scored just as much as lebron or more but on better efficiency. Would've put the bigs in the best positions to succeed because Kobe has always played well with a big and knows how to fully use them to his advantage. Especially vs a small team like the Warriors. He wouldn't have gotten the rebounds, but he would've let his bigs do their job and rebound, unlike lebron who was under the basket after every missed shot, even taking rebounds away from his own guys. Kobe would've stayed back and prevented outlets that gs loves. Also Kobe would've played better defense that lebron did and Kobe is a better passer, even though he doesn't pass as often. also don't think Kobe would've broke down every game like lebron did. Lebron had the cavs in decent position, but ran outta gas every time. Don't think that's a prob with Kobe. Also feel like Kobe is a better motivator and leader than lebron, he would've gotten the most outta his guys and would've killed jr for making so many dumb plays. This is just my opinion and obviously only counts if warriors played as bad as they did vs the cavs. If they played the way they did all year I don't think anyone could've beat them, not even mj.

WOW LOL! I missed that part when I read this post because there was so much wrong with it I just kinda skimmed through it. But now that a few people have pointed it out, I gotta say WTF!?

Jayb587
06-18-2015, 07:41 PM
Who knows. A set of bigs like mozgov and Thompson would be in perfect position with Kobe as their leader vs a small gs team. He would've scored just as much as lebron or more but on better efficiency. Would've put the bigs in the best positions to succeed because Kobe has always played well with a big and knows how to fully use them to his advantage. Especially vs a small team like the Warriors. He wouldn't have gotten the rebounds, but he would've let his bigs do their job and rebound, unlike lebron who was under the basket after every missed shot, even taking rebounds away from his own guys. Kobe would've stayed back and prevented outlets that gs loves. Also Kobe would've played better defense that lebron did and Kobe is a better passer, even though he doesn't pass as often. also don't think Kobe would've broke down every game like lebron did. Lebron had the cavs in decent position, but ran outta gas every time. Don't think that's a prob with Kobe. Also feel like Kobe is a better motivator and leader than lebron, he would've gotten the most outta his guys and would've killed jr for making so many dumb plays. This is just my opinion and obviously only counts if warriors played as bad as they did vs the cavs. If they played the way they did all year I don't think anyone could've beat them, not even mj.

your a smart guy. this is correct. Kobe would have used mozogv and Tristan more in the offense not just shoot when I pass it to you as LeBron did. The other guys on the offense would have clear designed roles and would have been running a system unlike LeBron drive and keep offense. also kobe never got to play with scrubs that played this good defense, kobes scrub teams were crap defensively. kobe also likely would have guarded steph the entire series. Kobe also would not have worn down in the 4th quarters because he makes people do their jobs rather than do everything like defensive rebound and bring the ball up the floor. with all that said, GS in 7 LOL. we saw how this went with phoenix in kobes prime, GS just has too much firepower, but I think u get a longer series with kobe as he would have not run out of gas.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 07:42 PM
WOW LOL! I missed that part when I read this post because there was so much wrong with it I just kinda skimmed through it. But now that a few people have pointed it out, I gotta say WTF!?

For real. I honestly didn't think Kobe fanatics could stoop to that level but they want to take the 1 thing Bron is so obviously better at. Next they will say Brons superior rebounding hurts the teams rebounding..... oh wait, dude already tried that LMFAO.

God bless you kobe fans. It makes me appreciate Laker fans that much more.

Jayb587
06-18-2015, 07:43 PM
WOW LOL! I missed that part when I read this post because there was so much wrong with it I just kinda skimmed through it. But now that a few people have pointed it out, I gotta say WTF!?

LeBron has superior court vision to kobe as hes always looking to pass and handles the ball a lot more than kobe. Kobe can pass though not like he is melo at passing. Kobe is superior to running offensive sets and getting people in position as well as getting himself in effective scoring position that expends less energy on his body.

Shlumpledink
06-18-2015, 07:44 PM
LOL, not a chance.

Put it this way, we saw Kobe without talent lose 4-1 to a team inferior to these Warriors in the Phx Suns. The year prior he pushed them to 7 when they were without their most productive player in Amare. And this is barely the first round much less after playing 3 series.

I think if the Cavs had Peak Bron they still lose but its alot closer. Bron is the best at carrying scrubs precisely because he can do so much and fill in in so many areas. Kobe wouldn't have rebounded and would have stunted one of the few advantages Cleveland had.

Kobe has only had 1 50PT game that I can remember and that was when Phoenix was forced to play without their defensive SG.

Come on now, we know you don't like Kobe, but the scrubs on that laker team were way worse than the scrubs on the Cleveland team.
Smush/Kwame/Odom/Walton/Devean George/Sasha Vujacic/ Brian Cook

I know we want to say Lebron had no help because guys didn't show up, but Cleveland had shotblocking/rebounding/floor spacing/defense. Kobe had Lamar Odom, and an offense that featured Kwame Brown in the post. Shawn Marion, Boris Diaw, (contract year) Tim Thomas were more than enough in the front-court even without Amar'e

Lebron is a lot of amazing, but his game would suffer without floor spacing.

Lebron did have talent, lets not exaggerate. If Kobe had Jr Smith, Dellevadova, Tristan Thompson, Mosgov, James Jones, Shumpert he beats Phoenix that year and at least you have a competitive series the next year against Phoenix. Lakers owned the Clippers that season they took Phoenix to 7 games, and that is who the Suns beat in the series after. Its easy to see the Lakers surpassing Clippers after that. Lakers go deep in the western conference playoffs with Lebrons "no talent" teams.

Hyperbole is fun, but lets not lose our heads

Jayb587
06-18-2015, 07:45 PM
For real. I honestly didn't think Kobe fanatics could stoop to that level but they want to take the 1 thing Bron is so obviously better at. Next they will say Brons superior rebounding hurts the teams rebounding..... oh wait, dude already tried that LMFAO.

God bless you kobe fans. It makes me appreciate Laker fans that much more.

it hurt his team in the long run as he was too tired most of those 4th Qtrs to finish the games. Tristan or mozgov could have gotten those rebounds and outlet to him to save his energy.

Jayb587
06-18-2015, 07:46 PM
Come on now, we know you don't like Kobe, but the scrubs on that laker team were way worse than the scrubs on the Cleveland team.
Smush/Kwame/Odom/Walton/Devean George/Sasha Vujacic/ Brian Cook

I know we want to say Lebron had no help because guys didn't show up, but Cleveland had shotblocking/rebounding/floor spacing/defense. Kobe had Lamar Odom, and an offense that featured Kwame Brown in the post. Shawn Marion, Boris Diaw, (contract year) Tim Thomas were more than enough in the front-court even without Amar'e

Lebron is a lot of amazing, but his game would suffer without floor spacing.

Lebron did have talent, lets not exaggerate. If Kobe had Jr Smith, Dellevadova, Tristan Thompson, Mosgov, James Jones, Shumpert he beats Phoenix that year and at least you have a competitive series the next year against Phoenix. Lakers owned the Clippers that season they took Phoenix to 7 games, and that is who the Suns beat in the series after. Its easy to see the Lakers surpassing Clippers after that. Lakers go deep in the western conference playoffs with Lebrons "no talent" teams.

Hyperbole is fun, but lets not lose our heads

yea that lakers LU is complete trash. Wish I could have seen kobe play with some of those hard nose personalities and defenders LeBron has this year, instead of Kwame and Company.

Shlumpledink
06-18-2015, 07:50 PM
Not many teams would have beat this Warriors team, they are way too deep for a lot of teams. I also think that not having Kevin Love means the cleveland defense was a lot better. Not having Kyrie means Dellevadova is guarding Curry instead of Kyrie, who I think matches up better defensively.

Having that extra ball handler in Kyrie would have helped spare Lebron in the series, and not have him have to expend so much energy. That would have allowed him to play better defense and perhaps rebound even better.

I don't like the Love/Lebron pairing, reports are they are opting out and I'd bet the farm they don't join another team together.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 07:52 PM
your a smart guy. this is correct.

Explain for him then. How is Kobe a better passer given everything we've seen from him? How does Kobe's inferior rebounding allow his bigs to do their job when Bron has a history of enhancing his teams rebounding to a greater degree. Next you guys are going to tell me that Kobe was in fact taller+stronger than LeBron.

Jayb587
06-18-2015, 07:58 PM
Explain for him then. How is Kobe a better passer given everything we've seen from him? How does Kobe's inferior rebounding allow his bigs to do their job when Bron has a history of enhancing his teams rebounding to a greater degree. Next you guys are going to tell me that Kobe was in fact taller+stronger than LeBron.

the part about passing was wrong. and as for rebounding defensive rebounds don't really mean much. id be more impressed if half of LBJ's rebounds were offensive with putbacks as tristans were. but your team basically moving out the way so you can defensive rebound, and bring the ball up the court doesn't mean much to me.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 07:59 PM
it hurt his team in the long run as he was too tired most of those 4th Qtrs to finish the games. Tristan or mozgov could have gotten those rebounds and outlet to him to save his energy.
No they couldn't have, as they were the ones forcing most of the misses defensively and on the offensive end, it was the entire gameplan for him to exhaust his energy offensively so that they could rebound while he attracted the attention.


Come on now, we know you don't like Kobe, but the scrubs on that laker team were way worse than the scrubs on the Cleveland team.
Smush/Kwame/Odom/Walton/Devean George/Sasha Vujacic/ Brian Cook
Nope. You naming names doesn't matter more than production and lack of depth.


I know we want to say Lebron had no help because guys didn't show up, but Cleveland had shotblocking/rebounding/floor spacing/defense. Kobe had Lamar Odom, and an offense that featured Kwame Brown in the post. Shawn Marion, Boris Diaw, (contract year) Tim Thomas were more than enough in the front-court even without Amar'e
More than enough? Compared to what GS had, you couldn't be any more wrong.


Lebron is a lot of amazing, but his game would suffer without floor spacing.
I disagree, as he had very little floor spacing this series. And the amount of energy it required just for them to hit open shots was tremendous. Im pretty sure they were like 0-35 or something when he wasn't out there. Thats not floor spacing, thats barely making open jumpers.


Lebron did have talent, lets not exaggerate. If Kobe had Jr Smith, Dellevadova, Tristan Thompson, Mosgov, James Jones, Shumpert he beats Phoenix that year and at least you have a competitive series the next year against Phoenix.
Kobe had more talent than Bron did and still lost in R1.


Lakers owned the Clippers that season they took Phoenix to 7 games, and that is who the Suns beat in the series after. Its easy to see the Lakers surpassing Clippers after that. Lakers go deep in the western conference playoffs with Lebrons "no talent" teams.
It takes a true amateur to look at regular season records to dictate anything. But even so, yes that would have been a fun series in which I could see the Lakers winning, too bad Kobe couldn't close the deal despite a 3-1 lead against a team FAR less talented than these Warriors. Its even sadder when you see how they lost 4-1 the following year with Kobe having more talent again.


Hyperbole is fun, but lets not lose our heads
Hyperbole is fun, but its more accurate when its backed by logic.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 08:01 PM
the part about passing was wrong. and as for rebounding defensive rebounds don't really mean much. id be more impressed if half of LBJ's rebounds were offensive with putbacks as tristans were. but your team basically moving out the way so you can defensive rebound, and bring the ball up the court doesn't mean much to me.

Agreed, offensive rebounds are more valuable. Doesn't mean defensive rebounds are meaningless. Kobe would hurt the Cavs on that end and is definitely nowhere near Bron in terms of passing. I would have respected your post more had you been more truthful, instead you gave a generalization about how smart he was even though he was ridiculous in an assertion that we ALL know to be false. It takes a special kind of homer to stoop that low. You backing him does your argument no favors.

Tony_Starks
06-18-2015, 08:03 PM
As soon as I saw someone say the team that Kobe had that missed the playoffs was superior to Lebrons Finals roster I knew it was time to relax and not take this topic too seriously.

Kobe haters are so deep in their feelings that all logic is lost, they're like jilted ex-girlfriends.

LA_Raiders
06-18-2015, 08:03 PM
They go to 7. Kobe has balls and don't quit...

MTar786
06-18-2015, 08:07 PM
look lebrons role changed when the other stars went down. he had to be in attack mode and he himself said he wasnt comfortable doing it. I think kobe would have done better in that type of role because kobe is better at lebron in that specific role. But they still wouldnt beat the warriors. maybe a 7 game series if anything.

Jamiecballer
06-18-2015, 08:07 PM
bahahahahahahahahahah....


thanks for the laugh

Jayb587
06-18-2015, 08:09 PM
Agreed, offensive rebounds are more valuable. Doesn't mean defensive rebounds are meaningless. Kobe would hurt the Cavs on that end and is definitely nowhere near Bron in terms of passing. I would have respected your post more had you been more truthful, instead you gave a generalization about how smart he was even though he was ridiculous in an assertion that we ALL know to be false. It takes a special kind of homer to stoop that low. You backing him does your argument no favors.

LOL, it is smart to allow bigs to do there jobs. Lebron jumping with Tristan basically taking boards out his hands is not smart, and a big key as to why he continued to run out of gas every game. So hate on kobe all you want, at the end of the day 2-4. And people who respect Kobe know kobe knows the game of basketball better than anyone. There is a difference between court vision and basketball IQ, which LeBron severely lacks. He has no idea how to use his brain to make basketball easy other than taking a play off and standing to the side while kyrie or wade go 1on1.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 08:10 PM
As soon as I saw someone say the team that Kobe had that missed the playoffs was superior to Lebrons Finals roster I knew it was time to relax and not take this topic too seriously.

Kobe haters are so deep in their feelings that all logic is lost, they're like jilted ex-girlfriends.

Reality check, they MADE the playoffs. They must've been out so quickly you actually forgot that fact.

Jayb587
06-18-2015, 08:12 PM
As soon as I saw someone say the team that Kobe had that missed the playoffs was superior to Lebrons Finals roster I knew it was time to relax and not take this topic too seriously.

Kobe haters are so deep in their feelings that all logic is lost, they're like jilted ex-girlfriends.

yea people in here think Kwame is better than Tristan, and vucavic is better than jr or Shumpert. we are talking about players who shined only with kobe and then fell out the league lmao. the guys LeBron has are long standing pros with or without him.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 08:14 PM
LOL, it is smart to allow bigs to do there jobs. Lebron jumping with Tristan basically taking boards out his hands is not smart, and a big key as to why he continued to run out of gas every game. So hate on kobe all you want, at the end of the day 2-4. And people who respect Kobe know kobe knows the game of basketball better than anyone. There is a difference between court vision and basketball IQ, which LeBron severely lacks. He has no idea how to use his brain to make basketball easy other than taking a play off and standing to the side while kyrie or wade go 1on1.

Why would I believe that when I've already seen Kobe go against his coaches Gameplan NUMEROUS times and decides to stick with a flawed gameplan when he actually should look to take over more? Kobe is too extreme in his approach

I see nothing smart about being the player who decreases his teams rebounding dominance. Kobe could be on an inferior rebounding team and STILL post inferior rebounding numbers than Bron, thats a FACT that matters more than you're unsubstantiated opinion.

Basketball IQ and passing are separate, I think Bron passes Kobe in both.

Jamiecballer
06-18-2015, 08:15 PM
counting down the minutes until the "would prime Jerry Stackhouse have beat the Warriors in the Finals with this Cavs squad" makes it appearance.

Jayb587
06-18-2015, 08:16 PM
Why would I believe that when I've already seen Kobe go against his coaches Gameplan NUMEROUS times and decides to stick with a flawed gameplan when he actually should look to take over more? Kobe is too extreme in his approach

I see nothing smart about being the player who decreases his teams rebounding dominance. Kobe could be on an inferior rebounding team and STILL post inferior rebounding numbers than Bron, thats a FACT that matters more than you're unsubstantiated opinion.

Basketball IQ and passing are separate, I think Bron passes Kobe in both.

well we are all wrong sometimes aren't we? LOL

cmellofan15
06-18-2015, 08:18 PM
bahahahahahahahahahah....


thanks for the laugh

this is pretty much what I came in here to say lol

my favorite logic: kobe would just outscore the warriors because he put up 81 that one time.

yeah, david thompson would have been great in this series too hahaha

Jayb587
06-18-2015, 08:18 PM
counting down the minutes until the "would prime Jerry Stackhouse have beat the Warriors in the Finals with this Cavs squad" makes it appearance.

yea by the time the summers over we will have a thread for every nba all star in history made by lebrons lovers

Raps08-09 Champ
06-18-2015, 08:19 PM
Kobe would score more (probably similar % though) than Lebron but averages less assists so they pretty much cancel out. He'll rebound less so it may give GSW more 2nd chance opportunities.

I'd still say 6 games for GSW.

Raps08-09 Champ
06-18-2015, 08:30 PM
Lebron, before the finals, shot 43% in the playoffs and 40% in the finals. Kobe shot 41-47% between 2000-2004 in the playoffs (where he made the finals 4 times out of 5 years) and has averaged almost 45% for his careers in the playoffs. His FG% probably drop by a few % in the finals playing the amount of minutes Lebron did with the defense he would have to face.

So Kobe shooting like 0-5% higher than Lebron isn't going to suddenly turn this into a different series.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 08:33 PM
yea by the time the summers over we will have a thread for every nba all star in history made by lebrons lovers
Might be cuz ur never around these parks but the maker of this thread prefers Kobe to Bron.

Some of us recognize Kobe and Bron as relative equals on the career front.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 08:35 PM
well we are all wrong sometimes aren't we? LOL

Letting the bigs do their job is just another way of saying, dont count on this guy to help on the rebounding front.

Face facts bro, Bron IS the superior rebounder+passer. Kobe scoring more on sporadic levels of efficiency isn't enough to make any sort of argument.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 08:40 PM
yea people in here think Kwame is better than Tristan, and vucavic is better than jr or Shumpert. we are talking about players who shined only with kobe and then fell out the league lmao. the guys LeBron has are long standing pros with or without him.

Vuce didn't start, why are you comparing him to starters aside from bias?

Why are you ignoring the VAST superiority of Lamar Odom, who actually spearheaded the offensive gameplan aside from Kobe and his turnover prone passing job?

Jayb587
06-18-2015, 08:43 PM
Letting the bigs do their job is just another way of saying, dont count on this guy to help on the rebounding front.

Face facts bro, Bron IS the superior rebounder+passer. Kobe scoring more on sporadic levels of efficiency isn't enough to make any sort of argument.

don't think I ever said kobe was better at rebounding or passing. what I said was it didn't matter much lol. im pretty sure Kwame avg career highs in rebounding when he played with kobe. career wins too. do u not think kobe was yelling at him to grab the damn boards? or was he like get out the way so I can bring the ball up the court lol. that's the point im trying to make.

Jayb587
06-18-2015, 08:52 PM
Vuce didn't start, why are you comparing him to starters aside from bias?

Why are you ignoring the VAST superiority of Lamar Odom, who actually spearheaded the offensive gameplan aside from Kobe and his turnover prone passing job?

movgov and Tristan is better than odom and Kwame. delly is better than smush. shump and Walton both suck but atleast shump is good at defense. Jr is better than vucavic off the bench, there you go cavs are better. odom is the best player of them all but as a whole cavs are better.

AntiG
06-18-2015, 09:07 PM
Warriors would have beaten them even worse because LeBron was distributing the ball around, getting boards, and defending anyone any size. Replace him with Kobe you end up with more individual offense. W's sweep or take in 5.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 09:07 PM
movgov and Tristan is better than odom and Kwame. delly is better than smush. shump and Walton both suck but atleast shump is good at defense. Jr is better than vucavic off the bench, there you go cavs are better. odom is the best player of them all but as a whole cavs are better.

i thought you valued basketball IQ? How can you berate Luke Walton (current assistant coach of the Championship Warriors) and yet bring it up at a distinguishing factor?

Delly may or may not be better than Smush but you're picking straws at that point. JR is better off the bench. I dont know if Odom+Kwame are better than 2 bigs who couldn't be played together once GS went small but I do know Odom was THE PERFECT small ball antidote because he was basically a perimeter player who could still rebound like a big but playmake like a small so no I dont agree they were superior as a tandem. Remember, Mozgov was such a detriment against small ball that he couldn't even crack double digit minutes whereas Odom was completely dismantling Shawn Marion.

As a whole the Lakers are easily better, even if you think the starting lineups are in the Cavs favor (Which it isnt), the Lakers had more depth and Kobe produced at an inferior level despite not carrying anywhere near the load Bron did.

Sadds The Gr8
06-18-2015, 09:12 PM
movgov and Tristan is better than odom and Kwame. delly is better than smush. shump and Walton both suck but atleast shump is good at defense. Jr is better than vucavic off the bench, there you go cavs are better. odom is the best player of them all but as a whole cavs are better.

05-07 Smush is probably better than Delly will ever be. Delly can't even dribble.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 09:14 PM
don't think I ever said kobe was better at rebounding or passing. what I said was it didn't matter much lol. im pretty sure Kwame avg career highs in rebounding when he played with kobe. career wins too. do u not think kobe was yelling at him to grab the damn boards? or was he like get out the way so I can bring the ball up the court lol. that's the point im trying to make.

Kobe is probably the most talented player hes ever played with. The Lakers were also the best situation hes ever been in. Kwame was actually a better rebounder outside of LA, or at least posted superior rebounding % so Im not sure where you're going with that one. The point you're trying to make is hollow because Kobe could be on a weaker rebounding team and STILL be an inferior rebounder than Bron, that is FACT. Why would I care if Kobe let the bigs do their job if it led to inferior rebounding from the team?

Jayb587
06-18-2015, 09:19 PM
5-2

see you guys at the next kobe thread.

SportsFanatic10
06-18-2015, 09:28 PM
5-2

see you guys at the next kobe thread.

ahh the 5 rings post....the Kobe fans version of a white flag. When all else is lost and every weak argument has been dismantled, just say 5 rings then run and ignore all else lol. Context be damned!

numba1CHANGsta
06-18-2015, 09:40 PM
You guys need to seriously stop comparing LeBron to Kobe/MJ. LeBron is a FORWARD, Kobe and MJ are GUARDS, this wouldn't be a fair plug in cuz LeBron plays SF/PF, Kobe plays SG, who the heck would play SF for the Cavs if Kobe is playing SG??

Bostonjorge
06-18-2015, 10:04 PM
Game 1 Kobe has Irving. Kobe with Irving beat down the GS. To much fire power.

Game 2 and 3 delly shut down curry. The rebounding advantage was huge. Prime Kobe can take down those warriors tema where curry and klay are not doing much.

That's 3 wins I see Kobe getting. After that cavs only need one more. Cavs win tilte.

Tony_Starks
06-18-2015, 10:08 PM
As soon as I saw someone say the team that Kobe had that missed the playoffs was superior to Lebrons Finals roster I knew it was time to relax and not take this topic too seriously.

Kobe haters are so deep in their feelings that all logic is lost, they're like jilted ex-girlfriends.

Reality check, they MADE the playoffs. They must've been out so quickly you actually forgot that fact.

Someone specifically said the 04 Lakers that missed the playoffs ( chucky Atkins, hurt Caron Butler, Brian cook, Chris Mihms) was better than Lebrons team. Pure comedy.

Newsflash the Laker team Kobe actually dragged to the playoffs and pushed a 60+ win Suns to 7 games was hot garbage too. Smush, Kwame and Luke freakin Walton started!!

Nevermind I see someone said Smush was better than Delly will ever be.

Once again pure delusional hater comedy!

Tony_Starks
06-18-2015, 10:15 PM
As soon as I saw someone say the team that Kobe had that missed the playoffs was superior to Lebrons Finals roster I knew it was time to relax and not take this topic too seriously.

Kobe haters are so deep in their feelings that all logic is lost, they're like jilted ex-girlfriends.

yea people in here think Kwame is better than Tristan, and vucavic is better than jr or Shumpert. we are talking about players who shined only with kobe and then fell out the league lmao. the guys LeBron has are long standing pros with or without him.

Its hard to distinguish people that seriously believe this stuff from pure trolling tomfoolery at this point.

Kobes supporting cast back then are probably all working at Walmart with the exception of Walton who parlayed a coaching job (shocker) and Odom who is probably smoking crack in motel as we speak..…

Cal827
06-18-2015, 10:22 PM
Lol, Please.

Cal827
06-18-2015, 10:23 PM
You guys need to seriously stop comparing LeBron to Kobe/MJ. LeBron is a FORWARD, Kobe and MJ are GUARDS, this wouldn't be a fair plug in cuz LeBron plays SF/PF, Kobe plays SG, who the heck would play SF for the Cavs if Kobe is playing SG??

This.

Also, Shawn Marion might have seen some ****ing minutes for once :laugh2:

KMackSackAttack
06-18-2015, 10:31 PM
No he wouldn't the series would've gone atleast 6 though

Chronz
06-18-2015, 10:36 PM
Someone specifically said the 04 Lakers that missed the playoffs ( chucky Atkins, hurt Caron Butler, Brian cook, Chris Mihms) was better than Lebrons team. Pure comedy.

Newsflash the Laker team Kobe actually dragged to the playoffs and pushed a 60+ win Suns to 7 games was hot garbage too. Smush, Kwame and Luke freakin Walton started!!

Nevermind I see someone said Smush was better than Delly will ever be.

Once again pure delusional hater comedy!

Recheck ur facts and amend your homer post accordingly
Seriously bro i want to give You a second chance before i dismantle it.

Chronz
06-18-2015, 10:37 PM
This.

Also, Shawn Marion might have seen some ****ing minutes for once :laugh2:

Were. You unaware of marions injury?

Steelersfan84
06-18-2015, 10:46 PM
talk about a stupid thread...

nobody was beating GS with a decimated team...

Dubs fans should just be glad they didn't have to face a full strength Cleveland

Probably would have gone 7, but GS would still win it.

Cal827
06-18-2015, 10:47 PM
Were. You unaware of marions injury?

I knew he was hurt earlier, but I thought he was available to play during the NBA finals. I read a few articles saying that some of the players wanted to see the veterans play a bit more (as in Marion and Mike Miller). Instead they got James Jones.

Kyben36
06-18-2015, 10:47 PM
no, but i dont understand why this matter, the truth is, this cavs team (outside of lebron) is a top 5 team in the draft. and im not counting Kyrie or Love cause they are injured, Lebron is the best player in the world right now, but he could not carry that much **** up that big of a hill.

goingfor28
06-18-2015, 10:52 PM
Zero chance. OP making some crazy threads lately

Hawkeye15
06-18-2015, 11:09 PM
As soon as I saw someone say the team that Kobe had that missed the playoffs was superior to Lebrons Finals roster I knew it was time to relax and not take this topic too seriously.

Kobe haters are so deep in their feelings that all logic is lost, they're like jilted ex-girlfriends.

it was no better, that is for sure. Odom takes a crap on #2 for what LeBron was given.

Jamiecballer
06-18-2015, 11:10 PM
I don't think some people appreciate how bad that team really is. I mean, if you think that's a good team my god you must have thought they were one of the best teams of all-time before Love and Irving got hurt.

Raidaz4Life
06-18-2015, 11:11 PM
it was no better, that is for sure. Odom takes a crap on #2 for what LeBron was given.

Odom might be one of the most underwhelming "good" players in NBA history.

SportsFanatic10
06-18-2015, 11:15 PM
You guys need to seriously stop comparing LeBron to Kobe/MJ. LeBron is a FORWARD, Kobe and MJ are GUARDS, this wouldn't be a fair plug in cuz LeBron plays SF/PF, Kobe plays SG, who the heck would play SF for the Cavs if Kobe is playing SG??

Of course everyone is going to make these comparisons. Players widely considered in the top 10 all time are going to be compared regardless of position, that's just how sports fans think and debate. So only other SGs are eligible to be compared to Jordan for the best of all time distinction? Guys like Magic, Lebron, Shaq, etc can't be compared to him at all? Just players of the same position like Kobe and Wade?

There's no perfect science to comparing players from different positions/eras/teams/whatever. But fans are still going to form opinions. The knowledgeable ones take in all the factors and form their opinions based on the facts.

Jamiecballer
06-18-2015, 11:15 PM
Odom might be one of the most underwhelming "good" players in NBA history.
And thoroughly skilled

IBleedPurple
06-19-2015, 12:09 AM
Troll Kobe vs Lebron thread, it's been a few days.

LakerShow
06-19-2015, 12:30 AM
Colby could do it.

Shlumpledink
06-19-2015, 12:53 AM
Nope. You naming names doesn't matter more than production and lack of depth.

That Laker team suffered from a lack of depth, and they were at full strength. They also had a lack of production as well, going up against the Suns meant inflated stats, if you are sincerely comparing the stats the Lakers put up against the Suns versus what the Cavaliers put up against the number 1 defense this season. I don't see the logic in doing that, or the logic in the outcome.



More than enough? Compared to what GS had, you couldn't be any more wrong.

What? Who is comparing to the warriors? I'll chalk that up to misreading, or mixing up my post with someone else's.

I was comparing the suns to the Lakers, since you were downplaying the suns to make Kobe look worse. I was stating that the Suns frontcourt even without Amar'e could still exceed whatever front court the Lakers trotted out. Kwame/Odom/Cook. Odom had a really good series, but he was still paired with either Brian Cook or Kwame Brown.
Logic says Diaw/Marion match up well with them. Diaw/Thomas, Diaw/Marion, Diaw/Thomas, Thomas/Marion.

So lets not dismiss that as a factor in the series outcome. Unless you're one of those guys who boils down an entire series to essentially 1 on 1, or one simple fact.


I disagree, as he had very little floor spacing this series. And the amount of energy it required just for them to hit open shots was tremendous. Im pretty sure they were like 0-35 or something when he wasn't out there. Thats not floor spacing, thats barely making open jumpers.


Floor spacing is not making shots, you know that right? Floor spacing is commanding respect for your jump shots. JR Smith, James Jones, and Dellevadova weren't left open as much as Smush Parker was in that Lakers/Phoenix series. Luke Walton was abandoned and afraid to shoot. Simply because the Lakers weren't nearly as good of shooters. You think Sasha Vujacic and Devean George were spacing the floor for anyone?? Making 3's does not equal having a man on you as you're camping on the three.

Cavs didn't make enough of their shots, and that sucks. But they were not left wide open. That is floor spacing.

Especially since Shumpert, Jones, and Smith were all hitting their shots in the series just before against the Hawks. So they were respected a shooters, as they have been through their careers
Watch that Lakers/Phoenix series again, and tell me that shooters weren't left wide open on the Lakers. Especially since the pace of play that the Suns played at, and how notoriously bad at defense they are. Don't forget this inflates stats.
Brian Cook was the only respected shooter, he is the most one dimensional of the one trick ponies.

Also, don't forget that the offense was primarily ran down low into Kwame Brown's hands, with Kobe taking over when the team went on cold streaks. Leading into that series was talk about how the Suns would let Kobe score, and he did (during that regular season I'm not allowed to bring up)

Lets also not forget our history, Kwame Brown was accused of rape after the Lakers went up 3-1 by a woman in Az. This case was later dropped (after the series) but Kwame, who we all know is mentally fragile, was a shell of his former self which was already a shell of his former self.



Kobe had more talent than Bron did and still lost in R1.


I see, you're one of those people. I guess I'm wasting my time then



It takes a true amateur to look at regular season records to dictate anything. But even so, yes that would have been a fun series in which I could see the Lakers winning, too bad Kobe couldn't close the deal despite a 3-1 lead against a team FAR less talented than these Warriors. Its even sadder when you see how they lost 4-1 the following year with Kobe having more talent again.


Name calling is fun, but doesn't help your argument. I am trying to make it to the big leagues one day.

Saying Kobe's team was better, and therefore wouldn't have had any chance against this completely different team with completely different players, isn't really a good one when one thinks of the nuances of basketball. The fact that matchups mean everything, and mere talent isn't enough to win basketball games. Team USA Bronze knows all about that.

I just would rather have the strong defensive and rebounding team in a 7 game series.

I still would argue that Kobe's team was worse.


Hyperbole is fun, but its more accurate when its backed by logic.

I'll grant you that, hyperbole IS fun. Its just that it comes off as you're trying out for first take when you abuse it.


I think the main argument against Lebron's teammates was their inability to create any shots for themselves, outside of maybe JR Smith at times, and Shumpert who underperformed. I think Dellavedova is more of a shooting guard type than a true point guard, but he did have a nice playoffs. Not having shot creators is a serious argument against a team. In that case, Kobe had Lamar Odom who was able to distribute and run the team a bit, which is an advantage over that Cavalier team.

In terms of overall talent, defense (I mean shot blocking/altering, on-ball off-ball, rotations, creating turnovers) and rebounding, even having better shooters.

I saw someone say Smush was better, but Smush had a terrible playoffs. Outside of the steal from Nash and the three before that he was a brick machine who didn't play very good defense. That is just wrong. Clearly evidenced by Smush's exodus from the league shortly after. Lets see where Dellavedova is 5 years from now.

sportsfanatic99
06-19-2015, 12:54 AM
Game 1 Kobe has Irving. Kobe with Irving beat down the GS. To much fire power.

Game 2 and 3 delly shut down curry. The rebounding advantage was huge. Prime Kobe can take down those warriors tema where curry and klay are not doing much.

That's 3 wins I see Kobe getting. After that cavs only need one more. Cavs win tilte.

i love how i come to every thread and this guy posts, no one responds to him. Does everyone have this guy blocked LOL - i mean he's not a great poster at all, i'm just saying, even the most absurd comment from Illusionist warrants a snide remark - but this guy, gets no love LOL.

SportsFanatic10
06-19-2015, 01:33 AM
i love how i come to every thread and this guy posts, no one responds to him. Does everyone have this guy blocked LOL - i mean he's not a great poster at all, i'm just saying, even the most absurd comment from Illusionist warrants a snide remark - but this guy, gets no love LOL.

:laugh2: Well at least I'm pretty sure Illusionist responds by quoting him with his typical "+ 1" type comments sometimes. So there's that...

Nice user name by the way lol. I like it.

bucketss
06-19-2015, 02:20 AM
i love how i come to every thread and this guy posts, no one responds to him. Does everyone have this guy blocked LOL - i mean he's not a great poster at all, i'm just saying, even the most absurd comment from Illusionist warrants a snide remark - but this guy, gets no love LOL.

:laugh:

Chronz
06-19-2015, 03:19 AM
That Laker team suffered from a lack of depth, and they were at full strength.
But the Lakers played that way the entire year, the Cavs lost 3 legit rotational players to injury, looking at just the Finals, they played a 7 man rotation basically. Even the Lakers when faced against an inferior squad (fact) were able to churn out more quality minutes from the reserves and didn't rely on Kobe to play this insane amount of minutes nor usage (Fact). Despite that, Kobe saw a decrease in his offensive efficiency (this with them going against a FAR inferior defensive team, not to mention your allegation of inflated stats) and as a result, bowed out quickly.



They also had a lack of production as well, going up against the Suns meant inflated stats, if you are sincerely comparing the stats the Lakers put up against the Suns versus what the Cavaliers put up against the number 1 defense this season. I don't see the logic in doing that, or the logic in the outcome.
Inflated? Its only inflated if you dont account for pace, strength of opposition and ignore their actual level of play all year (against more than just 1 opposition). That they were similarly flawed is my point only Bron's team put up a bigger fight with him leading the helm with a higher level of individual production. I would add a higher team influence but Ill just stick to the objective facts here.


What? Who is comparing to the warriors? I'll chalk that up to misreading, or mixing up my post with someone else's.
I chalk it up to you not understanding the scope of my argument. We have to at least try to compare the opposition they faced otherwise whats the point? The Suns were soft defensively and were nowhere near the Warriors level of play all year. Them being the better defensive team only stands to help Bron's case here. You're essentially admitting Kobe lost (twice) to a team that was inferior to a championship team, got to face them early and he still didn't exceed Brons level of play. Why would I give that guy the benefit of the doubt. Really, what is the greatest upset you've ever seen Kobe pull off?




I was comparing the suns to the Lakers, since you were downplaying the suns to make Kobe look worse. I was stating that the Suns frontcourt even without Amar'e could still exceed whatever front court the Lakers trotted out. Kwame/Odom/Cook. Odom had a really good series, but he was still paired with either Brian Cook or Kwame Brown.
LOL, but this goes beyond just 2 teams, we have to look at 4 teams here. Im comparing the support Kobe had along WITH the competition he faced. Suns not playing with Amare OBVIOUSLY makes a huge difference, as it made the difference from the Suns going 7 vs eliminating the Lakers with relative ease. Aside from bias, is there a reason you would want me to ignore how he played vs the same team only more talented?
Those Suns without Amare won significantly less games, more importantly they displayed a significantly lower level of efficiency. Now, if you were to ask me which version of those Suns were closer to displaying the level of play these current Warriors just did, do you really think Im going to prioritize the inferior Suns without their most productive individual player? F NO. So drop that asinine argument and lets try to make this as much as of an apples to apples comparison. I have no problem looking at Kobes failure vs an inferior version of the same team that wasn't close to these Dubs, but lets be holistic here. He failed twice vs a team not even close to these Dubs and did so while producing at an inferior level despite facing the inferior defensive team and not shouldering anywhere near the load Bron just did. What is Kobe's case again?



Logic says Diaw/Marion match up well with them. Diaw/Thomas, Diaw/Marion, Diaw/Thomas, Thomas/Marion.
That same logic also says that the same frontcourt, only WITH Amare matches up even better. Thus they had a superior regular season and defeated the same opponent more easily. Who'd a thunk it, the same team only with added talent, had an easier time. UNPRECEDENTED isnt it....


So lets not dismiss that as a factor in the series outcome. Unless you're one of those guys who boils down an entire series to essentially 1 on 1, or one simple fact.
Wat? lol explain.....



Floor spacing is not making shots, you know that right?
I dont believe you, if you cant make shots, teams dont respect you. Against the Dubs, it was obvious their 2nd best offensive creator (JR Smith) couldn't do anything. Its not like teams dont know how streaky JR is.


Floor spacing is commanding respect for your jump shots.
And the respect you command is dependent on how efficient you are with your shots. It was clear the Cavs werent able to convert despite being open and it was even more painfully obvious when Bron sat that they couldn't operate by themselves. Whereas when Kobe sat, Odom took on a greater role (whereas Bron's teammates folded without him). Granted both teams were **** without their star, but the Cavs took a significantly greater nose-dive, its why Bron had to log more minutes and shoulder a greater burden. Bron would LOVE to pass off, hes proven and said as much, but on that particular team, given their MASSIVE injuries, he had no choice.



JR Smith, James Jones, and Dellevadova weren't left open as much as Smush Parker was in that Lakers/Phoenix series. Luke Walton was abandoned and afraid to shoot. Simply because the Lakers weren't nearly as good of shooters. You think Sasha Vujacic and Devean George were spacing the floor for anyone?? Making 3's does not equal having a man on you as you're camping on the three.
I disagree, the amount of attention Bron drew exceeds Kobe's imo and he spoonfed them open looks that they couldn't knock down. Had they actually hit the shots then the floor spacing would be evident. Agree to disagree I guess. Bring forth some facts and Ill take the time to watch and dissect series that I remember vividly.



Especially since Shumpert, Jones, and Smith were all hitting their shots in the series just before against the Hawks. So they were respected a shooters, as they have been through their careers
The respect dried up once the Warriors saw they could help and recover more quickly than a depleted Hawks team. Also, why would anyone treat streaky shooters like you mentioned with that kind of respect?


Also, don't forget that the offense was primarily ran down low into Kwame Brown's hands, with Kobe taking over when the team went on cold streaks. Leading into that series was talk about how the Suns would let Kobe score, and he did (during that regular season I'm not allowed to bring up)
Odom was the primary post option from what I remember, he both abused and locked down on Marion. But why cant you bring it up? Is there some reason you cant speak of either season?


Lets also not forget our history, Kwame Brown was accused of rape after the Lakers went up 3-1 by a woman in Az. This case was later dropped (after the series) but Kwame, who we all know is mentally fragile, was a shell of his former self which was already a shell of his former self.
Yup, thankfully Kwame wasn't the 2nd best player Kobe had. Whereas when we look at Mozgov, he was rendered a liability by the small ball unit. Odom FEASTED on small ball. Thats the primary difference.



I see, you're one of those people. I guess I'm wasting my time then
Call it what you want to call it man. Ill be here if you think Im ever worth the time.



Name calling is fun, but doesn't help your argument. I am trying to make it to the big leagues one day.
Big leagues or not, look up the historical trends before placing any importance on such fallible examples.


Saying Kobe's team was better, and therefore wouldn't have had any chance against this completely different team with completely different players, isn't really a good one when one thinks of the nuances of basketball. The fact that matchups mean everything, and mere talent isn't enough to win basketball games. Team USA Bronze knows all about that.
So you're saying the games aren't played on paper, gee whiz bro thats really enlightening. Sadly, that doesn't change the fact that talent/skill dictates the odds. Obviously NOBODY knows how any series would play out, for all we know Bron could have defeated those same Suns that Kobe failed against and vice versa, but when an inferior producer is losing to an inferior team, it doesn't lend ANY credence to the idea that this player could pull off a greater feat. He failed to pull off that feat even with those advantages, why give him the benefit of the doubt? Aside from favoritism (of course).


I just would rather have the strong defensive and rebounding team in a 7 game series.

I still would argue that Kobe's team was worse.
What would you be basing that opinion on? How do you factor in the fact that Kobe would in fact make his team an inferior rebounding team?



I think the main argument against Lebron's teammates was their inability to create any shots for themselves, outside of maybe JR Smith at times, and Shumpert who underperformed. I think Dellavedova is more of a shooting guard type than a true point guard, but he did have a nice playoffs. Not having shot creators is a serious argument against a team. In that case, Kobe had Lamar Odom who was able to distribute and run the team a bit, which is an advantage over that Cavalier team.

In terms of overall talent, defense (I mean shot blocking/altering, on-ball off-ball, rotations, creating turnovers) and rebounding, even having better shooters.

I saw someone say Smush was better, but Smush had a terrible playoffs. Outside of the steal from Nash and the three before that he was a brick machine who didn't play very good defense. That is just wrong. Clearly evidenced by Smush's exodus from the league shortly after. Lets see where Dellavedova is 5 years from now.

Work ethic (+luck) determines a career, not a single season. Just tell me this. You take out Kobe from those Lakers and take out LeBron from these Cavs, what are their respective levels of efficiency/win-loss records? Just take a wild guess. You cant tell me its a discernible difference in craptitude. The real difference comes in Bron taking on a superior team and STILL getting his team closer to contention.


Again, Kobe produced at an inferior level, got his team to bow out earlier (despite not advancing beyond R.1) against an inferior team. Why give him the benefit ? I just dont see the logic.

Chronz
06-19-2015, 03:47 AM
with all due respect. I'm drunk and super thirsty. Bring forth the debate

nastynice
06-19-2015, 04:02 AM
If he decides to go Colby Brian maybe he has a chance.

LOL!! This sounds like an inside joke which I'm not a part of, but still has me rolling for some reason!!

nastynice
06-19-2015, 04:03 AM
with all due respect. I'm drunk and super thirsty. Bring forth the debate

Dang! **** got real!! Awesome, lol

sammyvine
06-19-2015, 04:15 AM
probably not

dubs would have beaten most teams.

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-19-2015, 04:38 AM
What exactly is it you think "we've" seen?

loooosing in the finals

and dont start piling up stats saying otherwise...the guy is great I have no doubts over that but when it matters the most, he comes short too much

-Kobe24-TJ19-
06-19-2015, 04:40 AM
.

Basketballmania
06-19-2015, 06:06 AM
Lebron 2 - 4 - losing record

Kobe 5 -2 Winning record

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

andy2518
06-19-2015, 06:38 AM
with all due respect. I'm drunk and super thirsty. Bring forth the debate

If the same circumstances are in place then yes, I don't see why Kobe couldn't win 2 maybe possibly 3 games. Kyrie active for game one. Golden State not showing up true to form for games 1-3. Cleveland's roll players playing excellent D, rebounding, and hitting most of their open looks in games 1-3 (aside from J.R never know what you are gonna get with him lol), I don't see why that's not possible.

To me, this whole series was a matter if the Golden State we saw all season and post-season long were going to finally show up. They did. The series was theirs to lose and not choke away. Once they finally showed up (ehem Curry), Cleveland's defeat was inevitable. Had Curry not had finals jitters from game one on, this series would likely have been a sweep. So to answer your question, give Kobe that same jittery Golden State team in games 1-3 and Kyrie active in game one, Cleveland playing the same D, rebounding and hitting open looks, it's very possible he gets two games as well and possibly three depending on how hot he gets.

True Kobe is not the pass first player Bron is, but he is a much better high volume gunner. I have no doubt he could have gotten off 30+ shot attempts and made at least 45%+ from the field, 80%+ from the line, and 35%+ from three in his prime. Blatt also did a very good job of countering defensively and that's mainly why Cleveland was able to stay in it for as long as they did. People often overlook how well he had that team prepared. Mozgov was beasting for a minute there and Thompson's ORTG to minutes played was the best in the series for both teams. Delly was even the unsung hero of game two. Though we all knew he was gonna come down off his cloud eventually.

Truthfully, I don't think it was possible for even Jordan to win this series once the GSW finally showed up. They were just too deep and they played defense. Iggy kept them afloat until their jitters subsided. That's why he was finals MVP, they might not win this series had he not turned the tide in games 4 and 5. Truly the MVP from that regard and holding Bron to 39% shooting of course.

Could prime Kobe had done a better job than Bron? That all depends, if he got as hot as he did back when he had the run of 50+ point games on high efficiency when Odom went down with that injury coupled with Cleveland playing good D and rebounding like they did than of course he could have. All depends on how hot he gets. He also could have shot them out of the game as well. Depends on his mindset and shooting hand. Too many factors to weigh in on. Odds are he gets two games as well with the poor showing the GSW had in the first three games.

One thing is for sure, he would have shot a better FT% even while playing those heavy minutes. That one I will bet the farm on.

andy2518
06-19-2015, 06:51 AM
Lebron 2 - 4 - losing record

Kobe 5 -2 Winning record

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Think we might have to give Bron a pass on this one as well as his 2007 finals. Both times there was literally nothing he could have done.

Well, maybe hit the shot to win in regulation in game one then Kyrie doesn't get injured. Haha.

r8derguy805
06-19-2015, 08:40 AM
No! just no! Kobe couldn't win anything without a big man in his prime years...Kobe won 3 with Shaq, Shaq leaves, Kobe doesn't even go back to the finals for another 6 years AND loses to Nash twice in MVP voting (at his prime)
As soon as Pau and Bynum comes along, BOOM! Kobe wins another 2 rings...I love Kobe, he's easily the best Laker of all time and top 10 players of all time as well! but we give him too much respect for being a solo act.



Lol. Lebron couldnt win ******* until he went to a STACKED Miami team. Goes 2-2 in Miami and 0-2 as the man in Cleveland. And get over yourself. Kobe was dropping 35.4 ppg that year he lost to Nash in MPV. You might be to young to remember kobe in his prime. You must have grown up in the ESPN/Lebron era. If kobe was jacking up 32.7 attempts per game he would be crucified by the media. This thread is just plain dumb. Lebron lovers trying to defend WHY he lost yet ANOTHER finals smoke screening with this dumb thread. I am not taking away how great Lebron is. I respect the game of basketball. But you are talking about 2 totally different players.

hidalgo
06-19-2015, 09:02 AM
warriors in 4. maybe 1 close game. it would be hilarious. KB wouldn't do jack shht to them

but, prime Michael Jordan on the Cavs? yea, i'd take the Cavs in a nail biter game 7. OT MJ game winner

r8derguy805
06-19-2015, 09:03 AM
Reality check, they MADE the playoffs. They must've been out so quickly you actually forgot that fact.

The road to the playoffs/finals is and was much easier going through the East. Lebron had it easy every year. 2 good teams in the east. After that..ehhh. Lakers had to go through Deep and tough teams out West. Come on dude, I can imagine you crying with so much kobe hate right now smashing your keyboard trying to come up with any dumb non logical kobe point. Get over it bro. 2-4 bro. lol

Tony_Starks
06-19-2015, 11:27 AM
As soon as I saw someone say the team that Kobe had that missed the playoffs was superior to Lebrons Finals roster I knew it was time to relax and not take this topic too seriously.

Kobe haters are so deep in their feelings that all logic is lost, they're like jilted ex-girlfriends.

it was no better, that is for sure. Odom takes a crap on #2 for what LeBron was given.

As someone who watched every single game he had in purple in gold I'll tell you LO was the most frustrating inconsistent really good player we ever had. He absolutely folded every time you put expectations on him.

You know when he played the best ball of his life? When Phil figured him out and moved him to the bench. No expectations LO would come in the game and ball like a all-star, even won sixth man.

But starter, we need you to be Kobes Scottie Pippen LO? Huge disappointment. Ask any Laker fan.

He kills the Cavs role players in name recognition only, but for consistency Thompson would actually be more reliable.

joedaheights
06-19-2015, 11:29 AM
I also argue that MJ wouldn't be able to do it.

Based on what? In one finals he averaged 31.2 PPG on 55.8% FG AND 11.4 APG.

Now, in that series Pippen was guarded by James worthy and averaged 20.8 PPG but on only 45.3% FG. Jordan's biggest beneficiaries? Horace Grant and John Paxson. Grant averaged
14.6 on 62.7% Paxson 13.4 on an alarming 65.3%. So jordan can score at will on the 91 lakers and get non all stars wide open looks all day and you don't think he'd beat del curry's kid??

Who guards him?

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-19-2015, 11:38 AM
Bron fans are sourrrrrrrrrrr.

cmellofan15
06-19-2015, 11:43 AM
I think a better question would be if Kobe was on the Warriors could they still beat the Cavs?

joedaheights
06-19-2015, 11:54 AM
I think a better question would be if Kobe was on the Warriors could they still beat the Cavs?

I'm not a fan of either but Lebron is far superior to "look mom, my first Jordan knock off doll" Bryant. With Lebron when the MJ question comes up I can just answer it "no." With Kobe it was an insult just to be asked.

Kobe doesn't beat any nba finals team without his needed safety valve... Someone in the post shooting at least 53% like Shaq and Gasol/Bynum

Hawkeye15
06-19-2015, 12:00 PM
]As someone who watched every single game he had in purple in gold I'll tell you LO was the most frustrating inconsistent really good player we ever had[/B]. He absolutely folded every time you put expectations on him.

You know when he played the best ball of his life? When Phil figured him out and moved him to the bench. No expectations LO would come in the game and ball like a all-star, even won sixth man.

But starter, we need you to be Kobes Scottie Pippen LO? Huge disappointment. Ask any Laker fan.

He kills the Cavs role players in name recognition only, but for consistency Thompson would actually be more reliable.

I know. The Lakers had no choice but to use him as a #2 option that year though. By the way, he went for 19-11-5 on better efficiency than Kobe did in their round 1 loss to a much lesser team than the Warriors.

But you are right about Odom. Always thought he was a waste of talent. He was really good at times, but could have been great.

Jayb587
06-19-2015, 12:03 PM
think, at the end of the day, LeBron likes the freedom. He likes having Blatt to kick around, something he couldn’t get away with with other coaches in the past. I think LeBron is OK with him going forward. If David Blatt is OK with taking the abuse from the star player, which he does, David Blatt will be back. I think it’ll be Blatt’s decision more than anybody else at this point.” - Brian windhorst

If this is true you can kiss LeBron winning anymore championships goodbye. something ive been saying lebrons whole career, LeBron does not want to be coached by great because he thinks he knows it all and is a control freak on the offensive end, limiting his basketball IQ. Im so glad kobe had phil to teach him the triangle and how to run a quality offense.

lol, please
06-19-2015, 01:16 PM
Lebron 2 - 4 - losing record

Kobe 5 -2 Winning record

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:
Lol.

JAZZNC
06-19-2015, 01:33 PM
Anybody saying Kobe would have won is completely insane. Kobe never won jack without the best front court in the NBA. Period end of story.

jericho
06-19-2015, 01:37 PM
Lebron 2 - 4 - losing record

Kobe 5 -2 Winning record

:facepalm::facepalm::facepalm:

Kobe 15 out of his 18 yrs in the league with a stack roster

Lebron only 4yrs with a stack roster

Jayb587
06-19-2015, 01:51 PM
Kobe 15 out of his 18 yrs in the league with a stack roster

Lebron only 4yrs with a stack roster

Calling Lakers 2010 roster stacked is a stretch lol. They were good. Not all time great good.

Kobe2324
06-19-2015, 02:08 PM
Love Kobe but Lebron gets more out of his teamates than Kobe does, he most likely lights them up points wise in his prime but the rebounds and assists just wouldn't be there

Jayb587
06-19-2015, 02:10 PM
Love Kobe but Lebron gets more out of his teamates than Kobe does, he most likely lights them up points wise in his prime but the rebounds and assists just wouldn't be there

they still wouldn't get swept.

Kobe2324
06-19-2015, 02:11 PM
Calling Lakers 2010 roster stacked is a stretch lol. They were good. Not all time great good.

Yeah 5-6 years with a stacked team but that's about it...The last 2 rings that was not a stacked team, Kobe just played amazing and had some good role players with a good sidekick in Pau...

Bigdaddyburch
06-19-2015, 02:24 PM
I think it woukd be about the same no matter if it was Kobe or Jordan. Either would have to have someone, anyone help contribute on O. The Cavs just didn't have anyone helthy that could do that.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-19-2015, 03:23 PM
As soon as I saw someone say the team that Kobe had that missed the playoffs was superior to Lebrons Finals roster I knew it was time to relax and not take this topic too seriously.

Kobe haters are so deep in their feelings that all logic is lost, they're like jilted ex-girlfriends.

it was no better, that is for sure. Odom takes a crap on #2 for what LeBron was given.


Cavs roster>>>>> Kobe's at the time

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-19-2015, 03:25 PM
i love how i come to every thread and this guy posts, no one responds to him. Does everyone have this guy blocked LOL - i mean he's not a great poster at all, i'm just saying, even the most absurd comment from Illusionist warrants a snide remark - but this guy, gets no love LOL.

:laugh2: Well at least I'm pretty sure Illusionist responds by quoting him with his typical "+ 1" type comments sometimes. So there's that...

Nice user name by the way lol. I like it.

-1

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-19-2015, 03:27 PM
with all due respect. I'm drunk and super thirsty. Bring forth the debate

Didn't you say you wanted to debate my sig?

nastynice
06-19-2015, 03:29 PM
If the same circumstances are in place then yes, I don't see why Kobe couldn't win 2 maybe possibly 3 games. Kyrie active for game one. Golden State not showing up true to form for games 1-3. Cleveland's roll players playing excellent D, rebounding, and hitting most of their open looks in games 1-3 (aside from J.R never know what you are gonna get with him lol), I don't see why that's not possible.

To me, this whole series was a matter if the Golden State we saw all season and post-season long were going to finally show up. They did. The series was theirs to lose and not choke away. Once they finally showed up (ehem Curry), Cleveland's defeat was inevitable. Had Curry not had finals jitters from game one on, this series would likely have been a sweep. So to answer your question, give Kobe that same jittery Golden State team in games 1-3 and Kyrie active in game one, Cleveland playing the same D, rebounding and hitting open looks, it's very possible he gets two games as well and possibly three depending on how hot he gets.

True Kobe is not the pass first player Bron is, but he is a much better high volume gunner. I have no doubt he could have gotten off 30+ shot attempts and made at least 45%+ from the field, 80%+ from the line, and 35%+ from three in his prime. Blatt also did a very good job of countering defensively and that's mainly why Cleveland was able to stay in it for as long as they did. People often overlook how well he had that team prepared. Mozgov was beasting for a minute there and Thompson's ORTG to minutes played was the best in the series for both teams. Delly was even the unsung hero of game two. Though we all knew he was gonna come down off his cloud eventually.

Truthfully, I don't think it was possible for even Jordan to win this series once the GSW finally showed up. They were just too deep and they played defense. Iggy kept them afloat until their jitters subsided. That's why he was finals MVP, they might not win this series had he not turned the tide in games 4 and 5. Truly the MVP from that regard and holding Bron to 39% shooting of course.

Could prime Kobe had done a better job than Bron? That all depends, if he got as hot as he did back when he had the run of 50+ point games on high efficiency when Odom went down with that injury coupled with Cleveland playing good D and rebounding like they did than of course he could have. All depends on how hot he gets. He also could have shot them out of the game as well. Depends on his mindset and shooting hand. Too many factors to weigh in on. Odds are he gets two games as well with the poor showing the GSW had in the first three games.

One thing is for sure, he would have shot a better FT% even while playing those heavy minutes. That one I will bet the farm on.

Great post!

Hawkeye15
06-19-2015, 03:35 PM
Cavs roster>>>>> Kobe's at the time

no, it wasn't. For all intensive purposes, the Lakers was better

Odom averaged 19-11-5 on better efficiency than Kobe did against the Suns.
The Lakers 3 point shooters all showed up
Walton (4-11)
Cook (4-11)
Sasha (9-15)
George (9-21)
Smush sucked (duh haha).

The Suns finished 16 in defense that year, The Warriors #1 this year.

The Cavs second best player was Mosgov in this series. 14.5-7.5
Cavs shooters:
Smith (15-51)
Delly (6-26)
Shump (8-25)
Jones (4-13)

The Lakers had a roster that played better, and still lost to a far inferior team 4-1, with Kobe in his peak.

They would get swept against these Warriors if you replaced LeBron with Kobe. And a couple of the games would be laughers. Kobe simply has never had the same impact on a basketball floor as LeBron, and in this situation, Kobe is worse off, because he is not capable of doing everything.

joedaheights
06-19-2015, 03:43 PM
Yeah 5-6 years with a stacked team but that's about it...The last 2 rings that was not a stacked team, Kobe just played amazing and had some good role players with a good sidekick in Pau...

Kobe never did anything without the lakers real offense coming from the post. I believe Gasol shot at least 52% both years in the regular season. That means you can shoot 45% and when it's time to trade punches, you don't have to attack the rim like mj or Lebron. Toss it in to Gasol.

Kobe played amazing? I think in one of the finals either 2009 or 2010 he shot 40.5% for the series. Wow. H

FYL_McVeezy
06-19-2015, 03:50 PM
I'll be nice and give Bean 1 game.

Dubs in 5

Tony_Starks
06-19-2015, 04:03 PM
]As someone who watched every single game he had in purple in gold I'll tell you LO was the most frustrating inconsistent really good player we ever had[/B]. He absolutely folded every time you put expectations on him.

You know when he played the best ball of his life? When Phil figured him out and moved him to the bench. No expectations LO would come in the game and ball like a all-star, even won sixth man.

But starter, we need you to be Kobes Scottie Pippen LO? Huge disappointment. Ask any Laker fan.

He kills the Cavs role players in name recognition only, but for consistency Thompson would actually be more reliable.

I know. The Lakers had no choice but to use him as a #2 option that year though. By the way, he went for 19-11-5 on better efficiency than Kobe did in their round 1 loss to a much lesser team than the Warriors.

But you are right about Odom. Always thought he was a waste of talent. He was really good at times, but could have been great.

I in no way shape or form think GS is far superior to Phoenix that year. Even though Nash stole Kobes MVP I still have to admit he had one of the best years at PG Ive ever seen in my life. The cliche about "making everyone better" was actually true for him.

Throw the stats out the window, a Nash orchestrated DAntoni team was waaaaaaay more intimidating than GS (unless you're the Spurs).

Really that Suns squad paved the way for the Dubs.

Jamiecballer
06-19-2015, 04:05 PM
Yeah 5-6 years with a stacked team but that's about it...The last 2 rings that was not a stacked team, Kobe just played amazing and had some good role players with a good sidekick in Pau...

Pau is better than a good sidekick. That's criminal.

Jamiecballer
06-19-2015, 04:07 PM
Cavs roster>>>>> Kobe's at the time

let me ask you a serious question. if you really believe that, how many games did you think the Cavs would win at the start of the season when you thought they had a healthy Love, Irving and Varejao?

Hawkeye15
06-19-2015, 04:13 PM
Kobe never did anything without the lakers real offense coming from the post. I believe Gasol shot at least 52% both years in the regular season. That means you can shoot 45% and when it's time to trade punches, you don't have to attack the rim like mj or Lebron. Toss it in to Gasol.

Kobe played amazing? I think in one of the finals either 2009 or 2010 he shot 40.5% for the series. Wow. H

Kobe has 2 finals series (that they won), with the following numbers:

15.6-4.4-4 on 35% shooting
24.6-8-6 on 42% shooting

he has 2 finals (that they won), with the following help:

09- Gasol led 4 other players in double figures per game scoring with 18.6

10- Gasol with 18-11, beating up Kobe's efficiency.

Kobe was totally awesome in 1 finals he was in. He was very good in 2 others, but had star help playing healthy and playing well. Not to mention a big man trio for his last 2 of Gasol-Bynum-Odom, which just overpowered teams.

Kobes irrational fans are amazing to me. You give the guy way too much credit for the winning. Remarkable player who is in the top 10-12 players ever yes, but by no means has he ever had to play with what LeBron has been given over his career, year in and year out, come the finals.

Hawkeye15
06-19-2015, 04:14 PM
I in no way shape or form think GS is far superior to Phoenix that year. Even though Nash stole Kobes MVP I still have to admit he had one of the best years at PG Ive ever seen in my life. The cliche about "making everyone better" was actually true for him.

Throw the stats out the window, a Nash orchestrated DAntoni team was waaaaaaay more intimidating than GS (unless you're the Spurs).

Really that Suns squad paved the way for the Dubs.

yeah we can't do that....

they paved the way for the Dubs offense. Their defense was barely league average, the Warriors was the best in the league this year. The Dubs would easily have blown through that Suns team, sorry.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-19-2015, 04:14 PM
Cavs roster>>>>> Kobe's at the time

no, it wasn't. For all intensive purposes, the Lakers was better

Odom averaged 19-11-5 on better efficiency than Kobe did against the Suns.
The Lakers 3 point shooters all showed up
Walton (4-11)
Cook (4-11)
Sasha (9-15)
George (9-21)
Smush sucked (duh haha).

The Suns finished 16 in defense that year, The Warriors #1 this year.

The Cavs second best player was Mosgov in this series. 14.5-7.5
Cavs shooters:
Smith (15-51)
Delly (6-26)
Shump (8-25)
Jones (4-13)

The Lakers had a roster that played better, and still lost to a far inferior team 4-1, with Kobe in his peak.

They would get swept against these Warriors if you replaced LeBron with Kobe. And a couple of the games would be laughers. Kobe simply has never had the same impact on a basketball floor as LeBron, and in this situation, Kobe is worse off, because he is not capable of doing everything.

Wait a minute, you hand pick a single series where the supporting cast of Kobe doesn't look like the worst playoff cast of all time and that's supposed to mean they are better than lebrons? You have got to be joking. Delly, Thompson, smith, moz, Marion, shumpert, And co are way better than Kobe's cast, let's get that straight.

Why don't we talk about Kobe carrying them to a seven game series vs the same Suns team that was championship quality?

I couldn't disagree more. Kobe's impact on the floor is legendary. It shows in his playoffs/Finals wins/record and titles. I'm amazed how fast people forget or ignore the greatness of Kobe. Lebron is an underachiever. Sure he has amazing stats vs most playoff teams, but it's no coincidence that he has a 2-4 finals record with a win loss record of 13-20.theres no way around those stats

Jamiecballer
06-19-2015, 04:20 PM
Wait a minute, you hand pick a single series where the supporting cast of Kobe doesn't look like the worst playoff cast of all time and that's supposed to mean they are better than lebrons? You have got to be joking. Delly, Thompson, smith, moz, Marion, shumpert, And co are way better than Kobe's cast, let's get that straight.

Why don't we talk about Kobe carrying them to a seven game series vs the same Suns team that was championship quality?

I couldn't disagree more. Kobe's impact on the floor is legendary. It shows in his playoffs/Finals wins/record and titles. I'm amazed how fast people forget or ignore the greatness of Kobe. Lebron is an underachiever. Sure he has amazing stats vs most playoff teams, but it's no coincidence that he has a 2-4 finals record with a win loss record of 13-20.theres no way around those stats

oh, there's a way around it all right. you just have to make up your mind a long time ago that you would rather die than concede that Lebron is just at a different level from Kobe. there's your way.

Hawkeye15
06-19-2015, 04:22 PM
Wait a minute, you hand pick a single series where the supporting cast of Kobe doesn't look like the worst playoff cast of all time and that's supposed to mean they are better than lebrons? You have got to be joking. Delly, Thompson, smith, moz, Marion, shumpert, And co are way better than Kobe's cast, let's get that straight.

Why don't we talk about Kobe carrying them to a seven game series vs the same Suns team that was championship quality? Are you referring to the year Kobe took the Suns to 7 when Amare was out? Suns weren't contenders in the slightest that season.

I couldn't disagree more. Kobe's impact on the floor is legendary. It shows in his playoffs/Finals wins/record and titles. I'm amazed how fast people forget or ignore the greatness of Kobe. Lebron is an underachiever. Sure he has amazing stats vs most playoff teams, but it's no coincidence that he has a 2-4 finals record with a win loss record of 13-20.theres no way around those stats

then pick the next year. Those are the only 2 years Kobe had a bad roster in the playoffs, and Odom was heads and shoulders better than anything the Cavs marched out after Irving went down for good.

We just did talk about Kobe losing to a lesser team than the Warriors, with a better roster. You just responded to it...

all that other **** you talk about is team accomplishments. Outside a few year window, your boy has had loaded rosters his entire career. LeBron would only be so lucky to have that luxury. You speak of Kobe as he has this will to win, or that the Warriors didn't have the luxury of bringing 2 former all stars who were 31 off the bench for "matchup" changes. That is laughable talent compared to depending on a guy who wasn't drafted and is guaranteed 100k in salary, and 2 Knicks cast off from a historically bad team.

You are seriously the most unreal Kobe worshipper I have met. I used to just not like Kobe. Guys like you have made me despise him.

Tony_Starks
06-19-2015, 04:24 PM
I in no way shape or form think GS is far superior to Phoenix that year. Even though Nash stole Kobes MVP I still have to admit he had one of the best years at PG Ive ever seen in my life. The cliche about "making everyone better" was actually true for him.

Throw the stats out the window, a Nash orchestrated DAntoni team was waaaaaaay more intimidating than GS (unless you're the Spurs).

Really that Suns squad paved the way for the Dubs.

yeah we can't do that....

they paved the way for the Dubs offense. Their defense was barely league average, the Warriors was the best in the league this year. The Dubs would easily have blown through that Suns team, sorry.

Easily? Well agree to disagree. If the Lebroniers could have them looking shook and confused damn near going down 3-1 then that Phoenix all-star team would've ran them out of the gym.

Challenge DAntoni to a small ball match? Oh Lord, he'd probably have a heart attack!

TheIlladelph16
06-19-2015, 04:39 PM
Would a definitively worse player have beaten the Warriors with this current Cavs squad? No. No he wouldn't have. They win maybe one game, but probably get swept out of the gym in ugly fashion.

Hawkeye15
06-19-2015, 04:40 PM
Easily? Well agree to disagree. If the Lebroniers could have them looking shook and confused damn near going down 3-1 then that Phoenix all-star team would've ran them out of the gym.

Challenge DAntoni to a small ball match? Oh Lord, he'd probably have a heart attack!

except why did the Cavs give them the initial punch? Because they were able to force Curry into a very bad start. Nash guarding him would be hilarious. The Warriors wall up the paint extremely well, and are a much, much better defense, with the same ability on offense. They beat those Suns 8/10 times to me.

We know the facts. That would be 2 elite offensive teams, and 1 elite defensive team, the other average.

The Warriors also were a first time finals team, usually teams are nervous early. They killed it for 90 games, took 3 to get right, then buried the Cavs. Suns would have been virgins to the Finals too. Just happens like that at times.

Wrigheyes4MVP
06-19-2015, 05:09 PM
LOL, not a chance.

Put it this way, we saw Kobe without talent lose 4-1 to a team inferior to these Warriors in the Phx Suns. The year prior he pushed them to 7 when they were without their most productive player in Amare. And this is barely the first round much less after playing 3 series.

I think if the Cavs had Peak Bron they still lose but its alot closer. Bron is the best at carrying scrubs precisely because he can do so much and fill in in so many areas. Kobe wouldn't have rebounded and would have stunted one of the few advantages Cleveland had.

Kobe has only had 1 50PT game that I can remember and that was when Phoenix was forced to play without their defensive SG.

What about prime MJ though?

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-19-2015, 05:57 PM
Wait a minute, you hand pick a single series where the supporting cast of Kobe doesn't look like the worst playoff cast of all time and that's supposed to mean they are better than lebrons? You have got to be joking. Delly, Thompson, smith, moz, Marion, shumpert, And co are way better than Kobe's cast, let's get that straight.

Why don't we talk about Kobe carrying them to a seven game series vs the same Suns team that was championship quality? Are you referring to the year Kobe took the Suns to 7 when Amare was out? Suns weren't contenders in the slightest that season.

I couldn't disagree more. Kobe's impact on the floor is legendary. It shows in his playoffs/Finals wins/record and titles. I'm amazed how fast people forget or ignore the greatness of Kobe. Lebron is an underachiever. Sure he has amazing stats vs most playoff teams, but it's no coincidence that he has a 2-4 finals record with a win loss record of 13-20.theres no way around those stats

then pick the next year. Those are the only 2 years Kobe had a bad roster in the playoffs, and Odom was heads and shoulders better than anything the Cavs marched out after Irving went down for good.

We just did talk about Kobe losing to a lesser team than the Warriors, with a better roster. You just responded to it...

all that other **** you talk about is team accomplishments. Outside a few year window, your boy has had loaded rosters his entire career. LeBron would only be so lucky to have that luxury. You speak of Kobe as he has this will to win, or that the Warriors didn't have the luxury of bringing 2 former all stars who were 31 off the bench for "matchup" changes. That is laughable talent compared to depending on a guy who wasn't drafted and is guaranteed 100k in salary, and 2 Knicks cast off from a historically bad team.

You are seriously the most unreal Kobe worshipper I have met. I used to just not like Kobe. Guys like you have made me despise him.

Your hate for Kobe has you blind. I'd take the cavs roster over Odom and our dog shti roster 100/100 times. I love how bad you have to reach now that Lebron continues to show what an underachiever he is. It's actually quite amusing. Kobe had a loaded roster in the early 2000's and had a 4 year window with gasol/odom/Bynum. The rest of our team was mediocre. All of which were grown organically, he didn't have to skip town twice to forms two separate super teams and still end up with a pathetic finals record of 13-20 and 2-4. Continue the excuses tho, I rather enjoy waking up to a hot breakfast and coffee and reading the endless amount of apologies this week.

And let's not act like you're not an unreal Lebron fan hawkeye.

SportsFanatic10
06-19-2015, 06:00 PM
I in no way shape or form think GS is far superior to Phoenix that year. Even though Nash stole Kobes MVP I still have to admit he had one of the best years at PG Ive ever seen in my life. The cliche about "making everyone better" was actually true for him.

Throw the stats out the window, a Nash orchestrated DAntoni team was waaaaaaay more intimidating than GS (unless you're the Spurs).

Really that Suns squad paved the way for the Dubs.

And here's yet another go to line for Kobe fans lol...

Why the hell would we just "throw the stats out the window" when they provide so much context and actual fact based argument and analysis instead of just blind bias? Stats are kept for a reason...

SportsFanatic10
06-19-2015, 06:10 PM
Kobe has 2 finals series (that they won), with the following numbers:

15.6-4.4-4 on 35% shooting
24.6-8-6 on 42% shooting

he has 2 finals (that they won), with the following help:

09- Gasol led 4 other players in double figures per game scoring with 18.6

10- Gasol with 18-11, beating up Kobe's efficiency.

Kobe was totally awesome in 1 finals he was in. He was very good in 2 others, but had star help playing healthy and playing well. Not to mention a big man trio for his last 2 of Gasol-Bynum-Odom, which just overpowered teams.

Kobes irrational fans are amazing to me. You give the guy way too much credit for the winning. Remarkable player who is in the top 10-12 players ever yes, but by no means has he ever had to play with what LeBron has been given over his career, year in and year out, come the finals.

This right here says so much. Sure you can point to Kobe's 5-2 finals record, but with numbers like that he could easily be 3-4. Lebron doesn't deserve to be criticized the way he is for his finals record when he has played well in all of his finals except for the one vs Dallas. There's so much that goes into determining who wins a final series besides just one player.

IKnowHoops
06-19-2015, 06:15 PM
Kobe had peak Shaq and they lost in the finals to an inferior team.

Thread

SportsFanatic10
06-19-2015, 06:17 PM
Easily? Well agree to disagree. If the Lebroniers could have them looking shook and confused damn near going down 3-1 then that Phoenix all-star team would've ran them out of the gym.

Challenge DAntoni to a small ball match? Oh Lord, he'd probably have a heart attack!

The Warriors could run and score with Phoenix no question, and boast much better defense then that Suns team. Everything points to them being the better team.

More-Than-Most
06-19-2015, 07:56 PM
Your hate for Kobe has you blind. I'd take the cavs roster over Odom and our dog shti roster 100/100 times. I love how bad you have to reach now that Lebron continues to show what an underachiever he is. It's actually quite amusing. Kobe had a loaded roster in the early 2000's and had a 4 year window with gasol/odom/Bynum. The rest of our team was mediocre. All of which were grown organically, he didn't have to skip town twice to forms two separate super teams and still end up with a pathetic finals record of 13-20 and 2-4. Continue the excuses tho, I rather enjoy waking up to a hot breakfast and coffee and reading the endless amount of apologies this week.

And let's not act like you're not an unreal Lebron fan hawkeye.

Pot meet kettle... You are calling him Bias for him love for Bron but everyone knows he isnt at all Bias... You on the other hand everyone knows cant have aconversation or debate at all because of your blindness and homeristic attitude. Odom is better than anything not named James/Kyrie

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-19-2015, 08:20 PM
Your hate for Kobe has you blind. I'd take the cavs roster over Odom and our dog shti roster 100/100 times. I love how bad you have to reach now that Lebron continues to show what an underachiever he is. It's actually quite amusing. Kobe had a loaded roster in the early 2000's and had a 4 year window with gasol/odom/Bynum. The rest of our team was mediocre. All of which were grown organically, he didn't have to skip town twice to forms two separate super teams and still end up with a pathetic finals record of 13-20 and 2-4. Continue the excuses tho, I rather enjoy waking up to a hot breakfast and coffee and reading the endless amount of apologies this week.

And let's not act like you're not an unreal Lebron fan hawkeye.

Pot meet kettle... You are calling him Bias for him love for Bron but everyone knows he isnt at all Bias... You on the other hand everyone knows cant have aconversation or debate at all because of your blindness and homeristic attitude. Odom is better than anything not named James/Kyrie

He's not bias when it comes to everything but Kobe/Lebron. You guys make rooting for Lebron unbearable.If you guys ranked Lebron accordingly I wouldnt have to waste my energy crushing your idol and his inability to win when it counts. I happen to know quite a bit of die hard Lebron fans myself, and when we have drinks at the bar or talk sports none of them claim the outlandish things you guys do.its absolutely ridiculous

sammyvine
06-19-2015, 08:23 PM
why you arguing over a player who isn't even playing anymore lol

joedaheights
06-19-2015, 08:25 PM
Kobe has 2 finals series (that they won), with the following numbers:

15.6-4.4-4 on 35% shooting
24.6-8-6 on 42% shooting

he has 2 finals (that they won), with the following help:

09- Gasol led 4 other players in double figures per game scoring with 18.6

10- Gasol with 18-11, beating up Kobe's efficiency.

Kobe was totally awesome in 1 finals he was in. He was very good in 2 others, but had star help playing healthy and playing well. Not to mention a big man trio for his last 2 of Gasol-Bynum-Odom, which just overpowered teams.

Kobes irrational fans are amazing to me. You give the guy way too much credit for the winning. Remarkable player who is in the top 10-12 players ever yes, but by no means has he ever had to play with what LeBron has been given over his career, year in and year out, come the finals.

You thought I was giving Kobe credit??

joedaheights
06-19-2015, 08:28 PM
This right here says so much. Sure you can point to Kobe's 5-2 finals record, but with numbers like that he could easily be 3-4. Lebron doesn't deserve to be criticized the way he is for his finals record when he has played well in all of his finals except for the one vs Dallas. There's so much that goes into determining who wins a final series besides just one player.

The one v. Dallas alone was such a black eye that that right there almost seals his fate relative to the top 5

SportsFanatic10
06-19-2015, 08:39 PM
The one v. Dallas alone was such a black eye that that right there almost seals his fate relative to the top 5

It was bad and it was certainly frustrating to watch for us Heat fans. Dallas had a good plan for him by using smaller quicker defenders on him aside from Marion's excellent defense. Back then Lebron wasn't comfortable in the post and couldn't even post up J.J. Barea. So they used the guards quickness to stay in front of him and bait him into long jumpers since he wasn't fast enough to blow past them, and wasn't good enough in the post to punish them that way.

Also Miami lacked the shooters back then to make the Mavs pay for sending double teams as well. Starting a completely washed up Bibby and Joel Anthony really dragged down the big 3 especially offensively. And since Lebron's jumper wasn't falling and he struggled to get to the rim against the Mavs defensive scheme, he became way too passive especially late in the games.

All that aside however, he definitely disappointed that series, and cost Wade a finals MVP. But at least he learned from it and improved his outside jumper and post up game dramatically since then. And really that's the only finals loss where he could of done more to change the outcome.

Jamiecballer
06-19-2015, 08:44 PM
Your hate for Kobe has you blind. I'd take the cavs roster over Odom and our dog shti roster 100/100 times. I love how bad you have to reach now that Lebron continues to show what an underachiever he is. It's actually quite amusing. Kobe had a loaded roster in the early 2000's and had a 4 year window with gasol/odom/Bynum. The rest of our team was mediocre. All of which were grown organically, he didn't have to skip town twice to forms two separate super teams and still end up with a pathetic finals record of 13-20 and 2-4. Continue the excuses tho, I rather enjoy waking up to a hot breakfast and coffee and reading the endless amount of apologies this week.

And let's not act like you're not an unreal Lebron fan hawkeye.
Lebron fans always deal with facts. Kobe fans deal in mythical qualities like will, clutch and unicorns

joedaheights
06-19-2015, 08:46 PM
It was bad and it was certainly frustrating to watch for us Heat fans. Dallas had a good plan for him by using smaller quicker defenders on him aside from Marion's excellent defense. Back then Lebron wasn't comfortable in the post and couldn't even post up J.J. Barea. So they used the guards quickness to stay in front of him and bait him into long jumpers since he wasn't fast enough to blow past them, and wasn't good enough in the post to punish them that way.

Also Miami lacked the shooters back then to make the Mavs pay for sending double teams as well. Starting a completely washed up Bibby and Joel Anthony really dragged down the big 3 especially offensively. And since Lebron's jumper wasn't falling and he struggled to get to the rim against the Mavs defensive scheme, he became way too passive especially late in the games.

All that aside however, he definitely disappointed that series, and cost Wade a finals MVP. But at least he learned from it and improved his outside jumper and post up game dramatically since then. And really that's the only finals loss where he could of done more to change the outcome.

Good for him that he learned from it but it's there. When someone tries to compare him to bird, magic, Kareem, mj or Russell, Lebrons fans don't get to just hope that if they can acknowledge it as fast as possible, then they can move on to "their good stuff." I feel like his fans try to whisper "yeah there was Dallas" in about 0.8 seconds and then come out with Everything they want to share with you. Doesn't work that way.

I've seen Michael lose cause Dave corzine and David greenwood suck or because pippen had migraines. I've never seen him lose cause he only averaged 18.9 PPG because "he didn't know how to post up yet." "He didn't know how to post up yet" ends the Michael Jordan conversation before it starts.

SportsFanatic10
06-19-2015, 08:55 PM
Meh...I'm by no means a Lebron fan, but I think his overall body of work has been great enough to have him in those conversations. Certainly by the time he retires if he can keep up his current level of play a few more years. You can hold one series against him if you want to, but the guy has been an absolute beast like 95% of his career and no player has ever been perfect. I mean, all the haters like to say he's not a winner, but he improved his game to the point that he really has no weaknesses. I guess his FT shooting could still be better but that's the only thing left to nit pick on his game. Isn't that what winners do, continue to evolve and improve...coming back stronger after a failure.

SportsFanatic10
06-19-2015, 09:12 PM
I mean I'm not shy about talking about Lebron's disappointing '10 finals at all. There were lots of factors at play. Like him and Wade being friends and not wanting to step on each others toes. After that loss is when Wade took a step back and told Lebron the keys were his and to be himself out there. There was plenty of adjustments to be made when that Miami team was formed. Bosh didn't even shoot 3s back then, they all had to figure it out. Spo even said he put Lebron in a box, and had to learn to unleash his versatility and the whole team took on a more positionless approach moving forward. Not to mention all the hate that was coming his way, Lebron doesn't relish being the villian...it doesn't mean he's not a great player though.

hidalgo
06-19-2015, 10:53 PM
LeBron is absolutely a winner. making 5 straight finals is awesome. he's been the best player since 08 probably(Duncan before that)
07 & 2015 losses i give him a pass because he faced far superior teams. so he's basically 2-2 in fair fight nba finals. 07 finals he could have played better though, & he no showed the 2011 finals, but ehh. he's a joy to watch, top 10 all time without question

this coming from a HUGE MJ fan(GOAT). LeBron is outstanding, period. best finals by a losing player ever (doesn't touch MJ's or Shaq's best, but man he gave it all he had. MJ just would have made the 2 GW attempts because he was beyond clutch. no disrespect to LeBron though)

MJ never had even 1 remotely bad playoff series, nor was he ever outplayed in a playoff series, not even once. that is fccking apeshht BONKERS...

Ty22Mitchell
06-20-2015, 01:46 PM
Let the grown up I quoted answer my question. You already know I dont give 2 ***** about your unsubstantiated opinions. Im talking about facts here. Losing in the Finals is MUCH better than losing beforehand so plz stop embarrassing yourself.

Lmao!

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 02:10 PM
I mean I'm not shy about talking about Lebron's disappointing '10 finals at all. There were lots of factors at play. Like him and Wade being friends and not wanting to step on each others toes. After that loss is when Wade took a step back and told Lebron the keys were his and to be himself out there. There was plenty of adjustments to be made when that Miami team was formed. Bosh didn't even shoot 3s back then, they all had to figure it out. Spo even said he put Lebron in a box, and had to learn to unleash his versatility and the whole team took on a more positionless approach moving forward. Not to mention all the hate that was coming his way, Lebron doesn't relish being the villian...it doesn't mean he's not a great player though.

It's all excuses for why he didn't as if he did. "Well, wade was his friend, so it's basically like he averaged 31 PPG and the heat won the 2011 finals."

mngopher35
06-20-2015, 02:42 PM
We have seen Kobe lead teams against great defenses in the finals before in the pistons/celtics and that was with more help than the cavs could give him. These happened in his age 25, 29,31 seasons so that seems pretty good for prime although not perfect. I know not exactly the same but when it comes to these hypothetical situations it is nice to remember what a player has actually done.

Note: He played better vs. Orlando which would help these numbers for sure but I don't think they were at the same level defensively (Lebron himself put up almost 40/8/8 that post season against them and LA/Cle as teams didn't drop much offensively which happens vs. good playoff defenses). Anyways these are the stats from 3/4 finals where Kobe was considered the leader of LA, I think this is at least somewhat reasonable to look at when trying to judge how he might lead a worse team in the finals.

25.9 ppg on .501 TS% (39.8 fg% 28.6 3pt% 85.8 FT%), 5.44rpg, 4.39apg and 3.78 turnovers per game over 3 series (18 finals games). If anything near this version of Kobe shows up the cavs probably don't win a game. Personally I would guess he gets hot one of the games and they win but that is about it, I just think some people in here forget how he has actually played in the finals with their takes here.

Lakers + Giants
06-20-2015, 02:47 PM
I voted Dubs in 4. At best Dubs in 5.

Kashmir13579
06-20-2015, 03:09 PM
Lol no

GREATNESS ONE
06-20-2015, 04:39 PM
Kobe in 6.

IKnowHoops
06-20-2015, 05:02 PM
LeBron is absolutely a winner. making 5 straight finals is awesome. he's been the best player since 08 probably(Duncan before that)
07 & 2015 losses i give him a pass because he faced far superior teams. so he's basically 2-2 in fair fight nba finals. 07 finals he could have played better though, & he no showed the 2011 finals, but ehh. he's a joy to watch, top 10 all time without question

this coming from a HUGE MJ fan(GOAT). LeBron is outstanding, period. best finals by a losing player ever (doesn't touch MJ's or Shaq's best, but man he gave it all he had. MJ just would have made the 2 GW attempts because he was beyond clutch. no disrespect to LeBron though)

MJ never had even 1 remotely bad playoff series, nor was he ever outplayed in a playoff series, not even once. that is fccking apeshht BONKERS...

Detroit held him to like 24 pts a game on 40% from the field like two years in a row.

joedaheights
06-20-2015, 05:55 PM
Detroit held him to like 24 pts a game on 40% from the field like two years in a row.

You sure??

Legend_23
06-20-2015, 06:32 PM
Who wins? I don't know and none of you know either. What I do BELIEVE is that a Kobe led team wouldn't run one play for the whole series on offense. a.k.a "the hammer" where they put the ball in lebrons hands on one side of the court, and four players move to the other. That was laughable. I believe Lebron is a better rebounder than Kobe, just like I "think" Lebron is bigger than Kobe. However, Kobe, in my mind has a higher basketball I.Q. His game isn't based solely on athletic prowess. His footwork on both ends was amazing, his passing was seldom, but efficient, his leadership wasn't based on hype and cool handshakes. If it was Kobe leading this Cavs team, i'd tell you with confidence that Mozgov would be a way better post up, back to the basket, work down low centre than he is. I'd also say that Kobe's competitive edge, "the will" that bends opponents would have a part in it. I think Kobe would try and make Clay and Steph feel like they didn't belong in the finals, like it wasn't their time.
I would say the Cavs would be underdogs, just as much as they were. I'd expect the Warriors to win, but it would be a different series altogether.

alexander_37
06-21-2015, 09:30 AM
Lol warriors in 4 maybe 5.

hidalgo
06-21-2015, 10:35 AM
Detroit held him to like 24 pts a game on 40% from the field like two years in a row.

no, no they didn't. he was never held under 26 ppg in a playoff series. he never had even close to a bad playoff series

here's his ppg & FG% for each series vs Detroit

1988 _ 27.4 ppg, 491%FG (5 games)
1989 _ 29.7 ppg, 460%FG (6 games)
1990 _ 32.1 ppg, 467%FG (7 games)
1991 _ 29.8 ppg, 535%FG (4 games)

total combined 30.0 ppg vs Detroit

hidalgo
06-21-2015, 10:36 AM
Detroit held him to like 24 pts a game on 40% from the field like two years in a row.

no, no they didn't. he was never held under 26.6 ppg in a playoff series(& he avg 10.2 RPG that series, vs the Hawks 1997, 26.6 ppg .454 FG% his lowest ppg in a playoff series,, lol dude was a cyborg). he never had even close to a bad playoff series

here's his ppg & FG% for each series vs Detroit

1988 _ 27.4 ppg, 491%FG (5 games)
1989 _ 29.7 ppg, 460%FG (6 games)
1990 _ 32.1 ppg, 467%FG (7 games)
1991 _ 29.8 ppg, 535%FG (4 games)

total combined 30.0 ppg vs Detroit

oh, & don't mess with MJ again. it's futile

Bigdaddyburch
06-21-2015, 10:59 AM
Kobe in 6.

Hmmm. So how would it be any different? Kobe gonna go 60 points a game 20 rebs and 20 assist a game?

GREATNESS ONE
06-21-2015, 11:26 AM
Hmmm. So how would it be any different? Kobe gonna go 60 points a game 20 rebs and 20 assist a game?

Lolz 😂

Bigdaddyburch
06-21-2015, 11:41 AM
Hmmm. So how would it be any different? Kobe gonna go 60 points a game 20 rebs and 20 assist a game?

Lolz ?

Just saying that is what it would take. If you only have one guy (Kobe/James/Jordan) that can shoot the ball.

joedaheights
06-21-2015, 03:22 PM
Just saying that is what it would take. If you only have one guy (Kobe/James/Jordan) that can shoot the ball.

When you say "shoot" I'm not sure you and others get it. What I mean is confusing "shoot" with "generate your own one on one offense". For example John Paxson had the ability of my dad when it came to generating his own offense off the dribble. So how did he shoot 54.8% in 1991? Because Michael Jordan got him wide open and Paxson could SHOOT.

Rick Fox is a great example of what I mean. When he was a focal point in terms of the Celtics generating one on one offense, he was a bust. When he went to LA and all he had to do was D up and hit wide open threes that Shaq got for him, he looked awesome.

And so it is with most nba players who can play defense. Most of them can hit an open shot all day.

Lebron just isn't sure of what he needs to do. I've seen him make all levels of defenses choose between him scoring at will or doubling him and having him make non stars look great. He just doesn't do what everyone knows he can do often enough. Like wilt...

One day he will figure out how to make everyone choose consistently. He will know when it's time and what it's time for. And his fans will act like he always was like that.

Two of these games that Cleveland lost could have been won with a total of 9 points each game. Anyone who doesn't think Michael "I never shot under 40% for a series under the age of 30" jordan couldn't have gotten 20 extra total points in two games is high.

Jamiecballer
06-21-2015, 05:19 PM
When you say "shoot" I'm not sure you and others get it. What I mean is confusing "shoot" with "generate your own one on one offense". For example John Paxson had the ability of my dad when it came to generating his own offense off the dribble. So how did he shoot 54.8% in 1991? Because Michael Jordan got him wide open and Paxson could SHOOT.

Rick Fox is a great example of what I mean. When he was a focal point in terms of the Celtics generating one on one offense, he was a bust. When he went to LA and all he had to do was D up and hit wide open threes that Shaq got for him, he looked awesome.

And so it is with most nba players who can play defense. Most of them can hit an open shot all day.

Lebron just isn't sure of what he needs to do. I've seen him make all levels of defenses choose between him scoring at will or doubling him and having him make non stars look great. He just doesn't do what everyone knows he can do often enough. Like wilt...

One day he will figure out how to make everyone choose consistently. He will know when it's time and what it's time for. And his fans will act like he always was like that.

Two of these games that Cleveland lost could have been won with a total of 9 points each game. Anyone who doesn't think Michael "I never shot under 40% for a series under the age of 30" jordan couldn't have gotten 20 extra total points in two games is high.
Lots of good points in there but as usual what is always lost is how much James contributed out there that was a large part of why the games were within reach in the first place. Can't just start the games over in the 4th and say "insert Jordan behaviour HERE".

joedaheights
06-22-2015, 12:14 AM
Lots of good points in there but as usual what is always lost is how much James contributed out there that was a large part of why the games were within reach in the first place. Can't just start the games over in the 4th and say "insert Jordan behaviour HERE".

Jordan could do both. I've watched him average 31.2 PPG on 55.8% FG AND 11.4 APG.

Michael absolutely could and did get his teammates tons of open shots all game

joedaheights
06-22-2015, 12:19 AM
I'm still not getting what Lebron does that Michael couldn't do.... "How much James contributed" is a very vague standard

lakerboy
06-22-2015, 01:05 AM
Lebron just couldn't beat a 50 win team from the west again. He's beaten 9 50-win teams in his career.

2/6 in the NBA finals. He'll never be as good as Kobe.

joedaheights
06-22-2015, 01:07 AM
Lebron just couldn't beat a 50 win team from the west again. He's beaten 9 50-win teams in his career.

2/6 in the NBA finals. He'll never be as good as Kobe.

He is better than Kobe

lakerboy
06-22-2015, 01:13 AM
i thought you valued basketball IQ? How can you berate Luke Walton (current assistant coach of the Championship Warriors) and yet bring it up at a distinguishing factor?

Delly may or may not be better than Smush but you're picking straws at that point. JR is better off the bench. I dont know if Odom+Kwame are better than 2 bigs who couldn't be played together once GS went small but I do know Odom was THE PERFECT small ball antidote because he was basically a perimeter player who could still rebound like a big but playmake like a small so no I dont agree they were superior as a tandem. Remember, Mozgov was such a detriment against small ball that he couldn't even crack double digit minutes whereas Odom was completely dismantling Shawn Marion.

As a whole the Lakers are easily better, even if you think the starting lineups are in the Cavs favor (Which it isnt), the Lakers had more depth and Kobe produced at an inferior level despite not carrying anywhere near the load Bron did.

What an ignorant post. Have you never seen the 2006 Lakers play? You're defending Walton's basketball IQ and making it look like he was a decent NBA player. HE had to leaev the league at 30 years old because nobody ever wanted him. HE was the third best player in the lakers!!


There is no way Odom + Kwame is better than Thompson + Mozgov. Mozgov, Delly and Thompson were getting double doubles and Mozgov even had a 28 pt game against the Dubs. You are an idiot comparing Delly and Smush Parker.

You are an idiot Kobe hater.

lakerboy
06-22-2015, 01:16 AM
Someone specifically said the 04 Lakers that missed the playoffs ( chucky Atkins, hurt Caron Butler, Brian cook, Chris Mihms) was better than Lebrons team. Pure comedy.

Newsflash the Laker team Kobe actually dragged to the playoffs and pushed a 60+ win Suns to 7 games was hot garbage too. Smush, Kwame and Luke freakin Walton started!!

Nevermind I see someone said Smush was better than Delly will ever be.

Once again pure delusional hater comedy!

Couldn't agree more. It's beyond stupid to think Walton and Shumpert are equals. JR is better than Sasha and there is no way Kwame is better than Mozgov. Give me a break Cavs fans. Since Lebron is now 2-6 his fans are even more delusional and defensive than ever.

2 of 6 in the finals, only 9 career playoff wins against 50 win teams in the playoffs.

bucketss
06-22-2015, 01:16 AM
Lebron just couldn't beat a 50 win team from the west again. He's beaten 9 50-win teams in his career.

2/6 in the NBA finals. He'll never be as good as Kobe.

hes already several levels ahead of kobe

lakerboy
06-22-2015, 01:17 AM
hes already several levels ahead of kobe

yeah but overall kobe will always be better. 2 of 6 in the NBA finals. people compare Kobe to MJ, you compare Lebron to Elgin Baylor

bucketss
06-22-2015, 01:18 AM
yeah but overall kobe will always be better. 2 of 6 in the NBA finals. people compare Kobe to MJ, you compare Lebron to Elgin Baylor

or we can compare him to wilt, who is 2 for 7.

lakerboy
06-22-2015, 01:19 AM
Lebron fans always deal with facts. Kobe fans deal in mythical qualities like will, clutch and unicorns

Lebron James fans love facts, like championship game series reconds (2/6), 4th quarter scoring and teammates playing great defense.

2/6 in the NBA finals. Lebron is the next Elgin Baylor

bucketss
06-22-2015, 01:20 AM
or we can compare him to wilt, who is 2 for 7.


yeah but overall kobe will always be better. 2 of 6 in the NBA finals. people compare Kobe to MJ, you compare Lebron to Elgin Baylor


i would like to add people compare kobe and jordan only because of similar playing style, not because kobe remotely close to jordan.

lakerboy
06-22-2015, 01:20 AM
or we can compare him to wilt, who is 2 for 7.

yeah, or to jerry west. either way, lebron isn't in mj's level or kobe's level. i wish people could get his 4th quarter shooting FG% and scoring in this series.

bucketss
06-22-2015, 01:23 AM
yeah, or to jerry west. either way, lebron isn't in mj's level or kobe's level. i wish people could get his 4th quarter shooting FG% and scoring in this series.

lebron,wilt and jordan are all superior to kobe. jerry west/kobe is a great comparision although i give kobe the edge.

More-Than-Most
06-22-2015, 01:33 AM
yeah, or to jerry west. either way, lebron isn't in mj's level or kobe's level. i wish people could get his 4th quarter shooting FG% and scoring in this series.

the only people who think Kobe is better than James all time is laker fans and Kobe himself.

More-Than-Most
06-22-2015, 01:34 AM
yeah, or to jerry west. either way, lebron isn't in mj's level or kobe's level. i wish people could get his 4th quarter shooting FG% and scoring in this series.

in game 5 alone he had 15 in the 4th and scored or assisted in 24 straight points in that 4th quarter. Clutch of clutch.

lakerboy
06-22-2015, 11:31 AM
in game 5 alone he had 15 in the 4th and scored or assisted in 24 straight points in that 4th quarter. Clutch of clutch.

Clutch of clutch was in game 4 when he hit the board for a clutch shot.

No joke Delly can make free throws better in the clutch than Lebron could. It's embarrassing.

Jeffy25
06-22-2015, 02:26 PM
I can see Kobe going off one night and shooting lights out to the point that they could steal a game....at best two. No way they would beat these Warriors.

Kobe wouldn't have rebounded or passed like LeBron did, and these were advantages that the Cavs needed in order to compete

OlivaThor
06-22-2015, 02:51 PM
As much as I like Kobe he and "his" Cavs would be destroyed by GSW. He would have his 30 ppg but there would by every game 15+

Jayb587
06-22-2015, 02:51 PM
I watch LeBron James, for example,” he said. “He might [travel] every other time he catches the basketball if he’s off the ball. He catches the ball, moves both his feet. You see it happen all the time. There’s no structure, there’s no discipline, there’s no ‘How do we play this game’ type of attitude. And it goes all the way through the game. To the point where now guys don’t screen—they push guys off with their hands.”

He concluded: “It struck me: How can we get so far away from the real truth of what we’re trying to do? And if you give people structure, just like a jazz musician—he’s gotta learn melody, and he’s gotta learn the basic parts of music—and then he can learn how to improvise. And that’s basically what team play is all about.”- Phil jackson

so glad kobe had phil. as long as LeBron is coached by blatt who doesn't teach him a damn thing, he will struggle to win the next 3 finals he is about to appear in lol.

jayjay33
06-22-2015, 04:04 PM
LOL, not a chance.

Put it this way, we saw Kobe without talent lose 4-1 to a team inferior to these Warriors in the Phx Suns. The year prior he pushed them to 7 when they were without their most productive player in Amare. And this is barely the first round much less after playing 3 series.

I think if the Cavs had Peak Bron they still lose but its alot closer. Bron is the best at carrying scrubs precisely because he can do so much and fill in in so many areas. Kobe wouldn't have rebounded and would have stunted one of the few advantages Cleveland had.

Kobe has only had 1 50PT game that I can remember and that was when Phoenix was forced to play without their defensive SG.


That is one of the biggest spin jobs I have ever seen in here. Amare excuse? Yet you neglect to mention Kobe had Luke Walton, smush parker and kwame brown as STARTERS on his team they weren't even NBA level player. And the bench was even worse.

Lebron or anyone else for that matter could not have done any better. Kobe's starting center literally could not catch a "basketball" or make a lay up.
Worse team in nba history.

jayjay33
06-22-2015, 04:09 PM
Assuming most of you are at least somewhat knowledgeable basketball fans at heart, ask yourself a question: who is more suited to singlehandedly win a series in which you have absolutely no choice than to shoot shoot shoot, percentage be damned, to have any shot at winning? The guy who is a pass first player with a iffy jumper, below average 3 and unreliable free throws? Or the guy that has scored 81, outscored a whole team (literally), and has unlimited range and makes his free throws?

If you can say Lebron with a straight face you really may be watching the wrong sport.

Like seriously imagine going into a series saying: Kobe I need you to be completely selfish this series, score as much as you possibly can,everybody else has to get the scraps.

Its a dream come true!

Lebron's jumper isn't as iffy as you make it seem lol...

3PTM: Lebron 1256, Kobe 1694
3PTA: Lebron 3671, Kobe 5079

3PTM Per Game: Lebron 1.4, Kobe 1.3
3PTA Per Game: Lebron 4.0, Kobe 4.0

3PT%: Lebron .342, Kobe .334


Oh stop....let's see the Spurs ( or anybody) back off kobe and let him shoot as a defensive stategy. Like they do lebron. Lol

It's not even close dude.

Jamiecballer
06-22-2015, 04:15 PM
Lebron James fans love facts, like championship game series reconds (2/6), 4th quarter scoring and teammates playing great defense.

2/6 in the NBA finals. Lebron is the next Elgin Baylor
the only fact in that post is one that isn't even reflective of an individuals performance. try again man.

jayjay33
06-22-2015, 04:19 PM
And for the record no neither kobe or Jordan or anyone else would have won that series under those conditions. I don't care how good you are. Somebody else on the team has to make and F'ing shot for you too win.


But it would have went at least 6.

jayjay33
06-22-2015, 04:24 PM
Lebron James fans love facts, like championship game series reconds (2/6), 4th quarter scoring and teammates playing great defense.

2/6 in the NBA finals. Lebron is the next Elgin Baylor
the only fact in that post is one that isn't even reflective of an individuals performance. try again man.



To be fair 2011 is the reason he has a losing record and that was ALL on him. So you might want to try again as well.

ILLUSIONIST^248
06-22-2015, 04:40 PM
yeah, or to jerry west. either way, lebron isn't in mj's level or kobe's level. i wish people could get his 4th quarter shooting FG% and scoring in this series.

the only people who think Kobe is better than James all time is laker fans and Kobe himself.and everyone with a brain outside of psd

5ass
06-22-2015, 04:45 PM
and everyone with a brain outside of psd

That's not true dellusionist.

Jamiecballer
06-22-2015, 05:01 PM
To be fair 2011 is the reason he has a losing record and that was ALL on him. So you might want to try again as well.
More narrative. It's never all on one person

Jamiecballer
06-22-2015, 05:06 PM
That's not true dellusionist.
He's posting from his cryogenic chamber where its still 2009

joedaheights
06-22-2015, 06:49 PM
More narrative. It's never all on one person

Dude he went into a series with wade and lost to dirk and a bunch of dudes while averaging 18.9. It's one of the biggest black eyes in the history of top ten players. If Michael Jordan, John Havlicek and brad daughterty lost to Karl Malone, Tyson chandler and Jason terry and if a post prime Doug Christie held mj to 18.9 PPG I'd be like "yeah, that's bad."

Jamiecballer
06-22-2015, 07:31 PM
Dude he went into a series with wade and lost to dirk and a bunch of dudes while averaging 18.9. It's one of the biggest black eyes in the history of top ten players. If Michael Jordan, John Havlicek and brad daughterty lost to Karl Malone, Tyson chandler and Jason terry and if a post prime Doug Christie held mj to 18.9 PPG I'd be like "yeah, that's bad."
It was a subpar performance for him but the Championship Mavs deserve way more respect.

Chronz
06-22-2015, 08:31 PM
What an ignorant post. Have you never seen the 2006 Lakers play? You're defending Walton's basketball IQ and making it look like he was a decent NBA player. HE had to leaev the league at 30 years old because nobody ever wanted him. HE was the third best player in the lakers!!


There is no way Odom + Kwame is better than Thompson + Mozgov. Mozgov, Delly and Thompson were getting double doubles and Mozgov even had a 28 pt game against the Dubs. You are an idiot comparing Delly and Smush Parker.

You are an idiot Kobe hater.
You can fling all the personal insults you want, it doesn't make your post factual. Walton WAS a decent basketball player and you have to know very little about former Lakers outside of Kobe if you think Walton was out the league for a reason outside of injuries

Mozgov also had an 8 minute game and was exploited by the small ball strategy, the kind of strategy that Odom+Kwame actually did pretty good against.

Chronz
06-22-2015, 08:33 PM
That is one of the biggest spin jobs I have ever seen in here. Amare excuse? Yet you neglect to mention Kobe had Luke Walton, smush parker and kwame brown as STARTERS on his team they weren't even NBA level player. And the bench was even worse.
Neglect to mention it? LOL, no, in fact thats the entire point of the comparison.


Lebron or anyone else for that matter could not have done any better. Kobe's starting center literally could not catch a "basketball" or make a lay up.
Worse team in nba history.

Disagree, the rosters were very much similar only the opposition was SIGNIFICANTLY softer defensively.

jayjay33
06-22-2015, 08:33 PM
To be fair 2011 is the reason he has a losing record and that was ALL on him. So you might want to try again as well.
More narrative. It's never all on one person



1. Nope.....he didn't "pay bad". He RAN from the moment. All he had to do is not act like the ball was covered in Ebola when ever somebody tried to give it to him and they would have won. That's ALL on him.

2. And as far as narratives go. You are confused about how team sports work. One person can't win it all by themselves. But one person can in fact cause the entire team to lose.

Chronz
06-22-2015, 08:37 PM
We have seen Kobe lead teams against great defenses in the finals before in the pistons/celtics and that was with more help than the cavs could give him. These happened in his age 25, 29,31 seasons so that seems pretty good for prime although not perfect. I know not exactly the same but when it comes to these hypothetical situations it is nice to remember what a player has actually done.

Note: He played better vs. Orlando which would help these numbers for sure but I don't think they were at the same level defensively (Lebron himself put up almost 40/8/8 that post season against them and LA/Cle as teams didn't drop much offensively which happens vs. good playoff defenses). Anyways these are the stats from 3/4 finals where Kobe was considered the leader of LA, I think this is at least somewhat reasonable to look at when trying to judge how he might lead a worse team in the finals.

25.9 ppg on .501 TS% (39.8 fg% 28.6 3pt% 85.8 FT%), 5.44rpg, 4.39apg and 3.78 turnovers per game over 3 series (18 finals games). If anything near this version of Kobe shows up the cavs probably don't win a game. Personally I would guess he gets hot one of the games and they win but that is about it, I just think some people in here forget how he has actually played in the finals with their takes here.

Solid post.

jayjay33
06-22-2015, 08:47 PM
What an ignorant post. Have you never seen the 2006 Lakers play? You're defending Walton's basketball IQ and making it look like he was a decent NBA player. HE had to leaev the league at 30 years old because nobody ever wanted him. HE was the third best player in the lakers!!


There is no way Odom + Kwame is better than Thompson + Mozgov. Mozgov, Delly and Thompson were getting double doubles and Mozgov even had a 28 pt game against the Dubs. You are an idiot comparing Delly and Smush Parker.

You are an idiot Kobe hater.
You can fling all the personal insults you want, it doesn't make your post factual. Walton WAS a decent basketball player and you have to know very little about former Lakers outside of Kobe if you think Walton was out the league for a reason outside of injuries

Mozgov also had an 8 minute game and was exploited by the small ball strategy, the kind of strategy that Odom+Kwame actually did pretty good against.



No....Luke Walton was not a decent NBA wing player. Bad spot up shooter, poor athlete, poor defender. He was about 4 inches to short for his skill set. Below avg at best as a reserve wing. As a starter it' was almost criminal.



And kwame brown literally could not catch A basketball. Anybody who watched that series knows that if brown could just catch the ball and make a layup. The Lakers would have won that series. That's how bad he was. I remember watching it and thinking how the hell can't a grown man much less and NBA player catch a basketball.

jayjay33
06-22-2015, 08:56 PM
That is one of the biggest spin jobs I have ever seen in here. Amare excuse? Yet you neglect to mention Kobe had Luke Walton, smush parker and kwame brown as STARTERS on his team they weren't even NBA level player. And the bench was even worse.
Neglect to mention it? LOL, no, in fact thats the entire point of the comparison.


Lebron or anyone else for that matter could not have done any better. Kobe's starting center literally could not catch a "basketball" or make a lay up.
Worse team in nba history.

Disagree, the rosters were very much similar only the opposition was SIGNIFICANTLY softer defensively.


And yet you IN FACT neglected to mention it. So yes. Lol


Similar? If you think mosgov, jr smith, and delly. Is similar to Walton, brown, and parker you have lost your mind. In fact I take that back. Your just flat out lying cause nobody would actually believe that. The odom Thompson thing is similar but everything else is not even close.


For get the rest just switch mosgov With brown and the lakers win in 5. You need to stop....you rhetoric is getting way over the top.

Chronz
06-22-2015, 09:23 PM
No....Luke Walton was not a decent NBA wing player. Bad spot up shooter, poor athlete, poor defender. He was about 4 inches to short for his skill set. Below avg at best as a reserve wing. As a starter it' was almost criminal.



And kwame brown literally could not catch A basketball. Anybody who watched that series knows that if brown could just catch the ball and make a layup. The Lakers would have won that series. That's how bad he was. I remember watching it and thinking how the hell can't a grown man much less and NBA player catch a basketball.
He wasn't a bad spot up shooter, he was perfectly average and decent in the post. Sure if we ignore his strengths (passing, spatial awareness), ignore his league average productive level and focus only on the negatives in his game, Im sure we can make anyone sound like a bad player.

Anyone that knows basketball knows if Kwame could do the things you expected, the Suns would have defended differently and Kwame would be a far different player. Just catching and finishing is more of a talent than you think.



And yet you IN FACT neglected to mention it. So yes. Lol
It was the entire point of the comparison, so no. You just aren't paying attention to how the debate originated. LOL


Similar? If you think mosgov, jr smith, and delly. Is similar to Walton, brown, and parker you have lost your mind. In fact I take that back. Your just flat out lying cause nobody would actually believe that. The odom Thompson thing is similar but everything else is not even close.
I disagree, I dont believe Thompson is anywhere close to Odom. The production levels and skill set are certainly not in the same realm.


For get the rest just switch mosgov With brown and the lakers win in 5. You need to stop....you rhetoric is getting way over the top.
Thats arguably Brons best "other", you would have to replace Odom with him for it to be a fair trade.

Jamiecballer
06-22-2015, 09:30 PM
1. Nope.....he didn't "pay bad". He RAN from the moment. All he had to do is not act like the ball was covered in Ebola when ever somebody tried to give it to him and they would have won. That's ALL on him.

2. And as far as narratives go. You are confused about how team sports work. One person can't win it all by themselves. But one person can in fact cause the entire team to lose.
Nobody plays at their best all of the time. Great teams have solid to very good players who step up and fill the gaps when others struggle. It's not all on James, not at all. This is where Jordan has spoiled the sport.

hidalgo
06-22-2015, 10:45 PM
Luke Walton was actually a decent player. KB freaks just try & make him look terrible to elevate KB. Walton's 10 years in the league, his solid PER (especially in 2007 14.7 PER), his good play in the 2009 finals, etc all prove he could play. he reminded me of Jud Buechler a lot. hard working, decent roll player

jayjay33
06-22-2015, 11:06 PM
No....Luke Walton was not a decent NBA wing player. Bad spot up shooter, poor athlete, poor defender. He was about 4 inches to short for his skill set. Below avg at best as a reserve wing. As a starter it' was almost criminal.



And kwame brown literally could not catch A basketball. Anybody who watched that series knows that if brown could just catch the ball and make a layup. The Lakers would have won that series. That's how bad he was. I remember watching it and thinking how the hell can't a grown man much less and NBA player catch a basketball.
He wasn't a bad spot up shooter, he was perfectly average and decent in the post. Sure if we ignore his strengths (passing, spatial awareness), ignore his league average productive level and focus only on the negatives in his game, Im sure we can make anyone sound like a bad player.

Anyone that knows basketball knows if Kwame could do the things you expected, the Suns would have defended differently and Kwame would be a far different player. Just catching and finishing is more of a talent than you think.



And yet you IN FACT neglected to mention it. So yes. Lol
It was the entire point of the comparison, so no. You just aren't paying attention to how the debate originated. LOL


Similar? If you think mosgov, jr smith, and delly. Is similar to Walton, brown, and parker you have lost your mind. In fact I take that back. Your just flat out lying cause nobody would actually believe that. The odom Thompson thing is similar but everything else is not even close.
I disagree, I dont believe Thompson is anywhere close to Odom. The production levels and skill set are certainly not in the same realm.


For get the rest just switch mosgov With brown and the lakers win in 5. You need to stop....you rhetoric is getting way over the top.
Thats arguably Brons best "other", you would have to replace Odom with him for it to be a fair trade.



If the things he's bad at are 90% of what is required at his position. Then yes he's bad. Nobody wants a 6-8 wing who's slow, can't jump, can't shoot and can't defend. No matter what else you think he can do. That automatically makes him bad. Which is why he was useless. Even if you think he was an average shooter (he wasn't). How many 6-8 Unathletic wings, that are avg shooters, can't play a lick of defense or rebound do you see running around the league. None....because that's not good. Nobody wants that.....stop it! Lol



And no catching and making an open layup should not be difficult for and NBA player. Anyone who knows basketball even a little should know it should not be difficult for a high school player. Being able to finish OVER defenders can be difficult and require more skill than a lot of people think. But NOT making a layup. That's absurd....He was literally laying it up on the glass and still missing it constantly.


And catching the ball? Really your starting center literally can't not catch a basketball. And your comparing that to what Lbj had. If you tired to trade odom, brown, Walton and parker....for mosgov Thompson smith and delly. Cleveland would hang the phone up without out even responding and you know it. There in no way similar. In fact your calling a guy that most in the NBA are in agreement is going to an atleast close to max player (Thompson) the 3rd guy. And delly is a solid 3D player compared to parker who is a D-leauge player. Oh and jr smith vs luke Walton? Really?

And that's similar....if you think these players are on similar levels then you have absolutely no ability to evaluate players. However I believe you know better and are just engaging simple rhetoric in an effort to make your case. Those supporting cast are not even close....and everybody knows it.

joedaheights
06-23-2015, 12:49 AM
It was a subpar performance for him but the Championship Mavs deserve way more respect.

What you said is only logical if you're not calling Lebron a player who can dethrone MJ like so many in the media seem to want to when he does something good .... Because if he is then he shouldn't be losing to dirk when he has wade.

Jayb587
06-23-2015, 01:59 AM
If the things he's bad at are 90% of what is required at his position. Then yes he's bad. Nobody wants a 6-8 wing who's slow, can't jump, can't shoot and can't defend. No matter what else you think he can do. That automatically makes him bad. Which is why he was useless. Even if you think he was an average shooter (he wasn't). How many 6-8 Unathletic wings, that are avg shooters, can't play a lick of defense or rebound do you see running around the league. None....because that's not good. Nobody wants that.....stop it! Lol



And no catching and making an open layup should not be difficult for and NBA player. Anyone who knows basketball even a little should know it should not be difficult for a high school player. Being able to finish OVER defenders can be difficult and require more skill than a lot of people think. But NOT making a layup. That's absurd....He was literally laying it up on the glass and still missing it constantly.


And catching the ball? Really your starting center literally can't not catch a basketball. And your comparing that to what Lbj had. If you tired to trade odom, brown, Walton and parker....for mosgov Thompson smith and delly. Cleveland would hang the phone up without out even responding and you know it. There in no way similar. In fact your calling a guy that most in the NBA are in agreement is going to an atleast close to max player (Thompson) the 3rd guy. And delly is a solid 3D player compared to parker who is a D-leauge player. Oh and jr smith vs luke Walton? Really?

And that's similar....if you think these players are on similar levels then you have absolutely no ability to evaluate players. However I believe you know better and are just engaging simple rhetoric in an effort to make your case. Those supporting cast are not even close....and everybody knows it.

LOL great post u win. trade odom brown Walton and smush for mozgov delly and Tristan. HAHAHAHAHAH cavs are not accepting that. and this proves all our points.

hidalgo
06-23-2015, 04:07 AM
actually that's a pretty even trade, Odom being the best player in the deal

thenaj17
06-23-2015, 05:43 AM
No. He couldn't take a slightly better supporting cast (04-05 Lakers) to an 8th seed. No way is he even taking a game off one of the greatest teams in recent memory in the Finals.

Warriors in 4.

Better supporting cast??? You are having a laugh. Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Vlad Rad are nowhere near as good as Thompson, Smith, Shumpert, Mozgov.

It would still be Warriors in this series however but the above reasoning is ridiculous

More-Than-Most
06-23-2015, 06:37 AM
Better supporting cast??? You are having a laugh. Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Vlad Rad are nowhere near as good as Thompson, Smith, Shumpert, Mozgov.

It would still be Warriors in this series however but the above reasoning is ridiculous

that is a better supporting cast and he couldnt get them an 8th seed... Odom is better than anybody on this cavs squad by alot.

Jayb587
06-23-2015, 06:53 AM
that is a better supporting cast and he couldnt get them an 8th seed... Odom is better than anybody on this cavs squad by alot.

trade me starters odom, smush, Walton, Kwame for mozgov, Tristan, shump, and delly. if ur the cavs GM and u take that trade ur dumb.

throw in 6th men vucavic and JR and your still a dumb GM.

nastynice
06-23-2015, 07:02 AM
No horse in this race, but IMO it's borderline insanity to think that lakers starting 4 is anywhere near to or comparable to the cavs starting 4 in the finals. It's just not even close, haha, when u put the names out there straight up as a possible trade it's so blatantly obvious. No way on earth would the cavs make that trade. Not only would they not make the trade, it would probably be the last time the cavs FO ever fields a call from the lakers FO, haha!!

nastynice
06-23-2015, 07:06 AM
that is a better supporting cast and he couldnt get them an 8th seed... Odom is better than anybody on this cavs squad by alot.

I agree odom is the best player in the group, by a little IMO, but other 3 positions cavs are VASTLY superior.

PurpleJesus
06-23-2015, 07:06 AM
Better question...if Kobe lands on a team like...say, the Milwaukee Bucks, is he still Kobe as we know him, or is he just someone like Ray Allen jumping around looking for a title?

joedaheights
06-23-2015, 07:09 AM
Will Kobe's fans ever stop crying about how bad his supporting cast was? They used to cry about it as a way to argue that he was on Jordan's level. How about two losses and his FG% WITH Shaq or Gasol/Bynum in the paint getting his efficient offense for him.

04 Finals v. Pistons - 38.1 (TS% 45.6)
08 Finals v. Celtics - 40.5 (TS% 50.5)

That's not good. And it's not Sasha vujacic's fault

PurpleJesus
06-23-2015, 07:14 AM
Will Kobe's fans ever stop crying about how bad his supporting cast was? They used to cry about it as a way to argue that he was on Jordan's level. How about two losses and his FG% WITH Shaq or Gasol/Bynum in the paint getting his efficient offense for him.

04 Finals v. Pistons - 38.1 (TS% 45.6)
08 Finals v. Celtics - 40.5 (TS% 50.5)

That's not good. And it's not Sasha vujacic's fault

Kobe has had some of the best supporting casts...****, on most of his titles, he wasnt even the best player on the team...but hey, he's better than Lebron, because Lebron's second best player was Tristan Thompson. Lebron with a prime Shaq couldnt touch Kobe.

hidalgo
06-23-2015, 07:44 AM
2004-05 Lakers had Odom, & Caron Butler, & didn't even siff the playoffs. hahah

KB fans, & Lakers fans should appreciate just how great Pau Gasol was. they went from 0 threat to the title without him, to 3 straight finals, & back to back champs the second he got there. first ballet hall of famer without question

hidalgo
06-23-2015, 08:01 AM
Will Kobe's fans ever stop crying about how bad his supporting cast was? They used to cry about it as a way to argue that he was on Jordan's level. How about two losses and his FG% WITH Shaq or Gasol/Bynum in the paint getting his efficient offense for him.

04 Finals v. Pistons - 38.1 (TS% 45.6)
08 Finals v. Celtics - 40.5 (TS% 50.5)

That's not good. And it's not Sasha vujacic's fault
don't fotget the 2000 finals vs the Pacers where he avg 15.6 ppg 36%FG, 4.6 rb, 4.2 ast. garbage garbage garbage. outside of Shaquille, 3 Pacers outplayed KB. Reggie Miller 24.3 ppg 41% , Jalen Rose 23 ppg 46%FG, & Austin Croshere 15.2 ppg 54%FG. and Mark Jackson arguably

the man was outplayed by Austin Croshere in the nba finals, lol

3 finals series stinkers for KB. only 2 for LeBron

nastynice
06-23-2015, 08:04 AM
lol, I just remembered why I stay out of Kobe and lebron threads. Mention one of these guys name and mofos just lose they mind, lol, what the hell...

Chronz
06-23-2015, 10:51 AM
If the things he's bad at are 90% of what is required at his position. Then yes he's bad. Nobody wants a 6-8 wing who's slow, can't jump, can't shoot and can't defend. No matter what else you think he can do. That automatically makes him bad. Which is why he was useless. Even if you think he was an average shooter (he wasn't). How many 6-8 Unathletic wings, that are avg shooters, can't play a lick of defense or rebound do you see running around the league. None....because that's not good. Nobody wants that.....stop it! Lol



And no catching and making an open layup should not be difficult for and NBA player. Anyone who knows basketball even a little should know it should not be difficult for a high school player. Being able to finish OVER defenders can be difficult and require more skill than a lot of people think. But NOT making a layup. That's absurd....He was literally laying it up on the glass and still missing it constantly.


And catching the ball? Really your starting center literally can't not catch a basketball. And your comparing that to what Lbj had. If you tired to trade odom, brown, Walton and parker....for mosgov Thompson smith and delly. Cleveland would hang the phone up without out even responding and you know it. There in no way similar. In fact your calling a guy that most in the NBA are in agreement is going to an atleast close to max player (Thompson) the 3rd guy. And delly is a solid 3D player compared to parker who is a D-leauge player. Oh and jr smith vs luke Walton? Really?

And that's similar....if you think these players are on similar levels then you have absolutely no ability to evaluate players. However I believe you know better and are just engaging simple rhetoric in an effort to make your case. Those supporting cast are not even close....and everybody knows it.
Of course They Don't make that trade, the potential for tt is worth more. I'm talking about CURRENT performance. .
I'm Not a fan of. Fake percentages so if you want too make a quantifiable claim plz do so. If you want too just throw random numbers then just tell me one thing. How many rs games does each team win without their star?

Chronz
06-23-2015, 10:54 AM
Better supporting cast??? You are having a laugh. Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Vlad Rad are nowhere near as good as Thompson, Smith, Shumpert, Mozgov.

It would still be Warriors in this series however but the above reasoning is ridiculous
Your Not reading His post. Smush parker wa snt on that team.

JV35 (Redux)
06-23-2015, 10:54 AM
If Shaq had his Wheaties (and everybody else was actin' a fool) I could see it.

king4day
06-23-2015, 12:17 PM
LeBron could put up fancy statlines all the time but he's no winner.

We've seen this gazillion times and people are still in doubt.

Truth is out there.

Seeing as LeBron had a finals for the ages and couldn't get it done, I see no possible way Kobe would have either.

Jayb587
06-23-2015, 12:29 PM
Of course They Don't make that trade, the potential for tt is worth more. I'm talking about CURRENT performance. .
I'm Not a fan of. Fake percentages so if you want too make a quantifiable claim plz do so. If you want too just throw random numbers then just tell me one thing. How many rs games does each team win without their star?

yea they don't make that trade becuz the cavs have the better players, plain and simple, don't need % or any random #'s to see that. I wouldn't even trade mozgov and TT for all 4 of those bums based on current performance not considering potential.

jayjay33
06-23-2015, 01:47 PM
Better supporting cast??? You are having a laugh. Smush Parker, Lamar Odom, Luke Walton, Kwame Brown, Vlad Rad are nowhere near as good as Thompson, Smith, Shumpert, Mozgov.

It would still be Warriors in this series however but the above reasoning is ridiculous

that is a better supporting cast and he couldnt get them an 8th seed... Odom is better than anybody on this cavs squad by alot.


And yet he got a far worse one to the playoffs and pushed the 2 seed to 7 games. IN THE WEST. Which completely negates your "point".

jayjay33
06-23-2015, 02:07 PM
If the things he's bad at are 90% of what is required at his position. Then yes he's bad. Nobody wants a 6-8 wing who's slow, can't jump, can't shoot and can't defend. No matter what else you think he can do. That automatically makes him bad. Which is why he was useless. Even if you think he was an average shooter (he wasn't). How many 6-8 Unathletic wings, that are avg shooters, can't play a lick of defense or rebound do you see running around the league. None....because that's not good. Nobody wants that.....stop it! Lol



And no catching and making an open layup should not be difficult for and NBA player. Anyone who knows basketball even a little should know it should not be difficult for a high school player. Being able to finish OVER defenders can be difficult and require more skill than a lot of people think. But NOT making a layup. That's absurd....He was literally laying it up on the glass and still missing it constantly.


And catching the ball? Really your starting center literally can't not catch a basketball. And your comparing that to what Lbj had. If you tired to trade odom, brown, Walton and parker....for mosgov Thompson smith and delly. Cleveland would hang the phone up without out even responding and you know it. There in no way similar. In fact your calling a guy that most in the NBA are in agreement is going to an atleast close to max player (Thompson) the 3rd guy. And delly is a solid 3D player compared to parker who is a D-leauge player. Oh and jr smith vs luke Walton? Really?

And that's similar....if you think these players are on similar levels then you have absolutely no ability to evaluate players. However I believe you know better and are just engaging simple rhetoric in an effort to make your case. Those supporting cast are not even close....and everybody knows it.
Of course They Don't make that trade, the potential for tt is worth more. I'm talking about CURRENT performance. .
I'm Not a fan of. Fake percentages so if you want too make a quantifiable claim plz do so. If you want too just throw random numbers then just tell me one thing. How many rs games does each team win without their star?


And I'm not a fan, of obvious troll arguments. Those supporting cast are not even close. And it's not just TT NOBODY is trading smith for Walton OR delly for smush parker either.


TT is the same age as Brown was then. So if they are the same caliber of player how is TT potenial worth more? The answer is your clearly full of it. And TT is much better the brown was then.


This is honestly one of the silly positions I've ever seen you take. Nobody who knows even the slightest bit about the NBA. Thinks a cast of mosgov, TT, smith, shump, delly. Is on the same level with odom, Walton, kwame and smush F'ing parker. That is so over the top you must be trolling. You can't be serious. Lol.....wow.

If you poled every NBA GM on which supporting cast is better kwame and company would not get a single vote. Not 1. If fact they'ed probably think they were being trolled. With such a stupid question.

mngopher35
06-23-2015, 02:34 PM
I think that the Cleveland team with injuries is still a little better than that Laker team. It isn't by a ton but the back court gives them the slight edge and odom helps cancel out the frontcourt. Either way the gap between those two teams is smaller than GS to the suns.

Anyways Kobe still didn't put up the same individual series that Lebron did either year vs. the suns. If we look from 04-current since Kobe has been the best player on the team I am not sure Kobe has ended the post-season (via loss or finals) with many better performances than what we just saw.

04- Not close, he played very poorly vs. detroit
05- no playoffs
06/07- losing to a Suns team that was better than his but he didn't perform up to the same level we just saw
08- Not as bad as 04 but certainly not a great performance.
09- This one probably is the best. He had an easier Orlando match up with superior talent but still played great individually.
10- Even though they won the title I think it is pretty clear that individually he doesn't quite match up. Gasol was right there production wise with Kobe while no one from the Cavs was even close to Lebron. You could argue that he just didn't have to carry the same load so he didn't try to but that helps make Lebrons performance better, the load he had to carry.
11- Swept vs. Mavs, not entirely his fault but didn't play great.
12- Not his fault they lost to OKC, played good but not at the impact we just saw from James.
13/14/15- injured for playoffs or team didn't make it


So since since he took over the team from Shaq he has probably performed equal or better in the finals (or the teams elimination series) one time, maybe twice. I am not trying to bash Kobe as multiple times up there I don't think there is much he could have done individually, just like Lebron this series. It is funny seeing some of these responses on how he would for sure have done as good or better though when in his actual career he generally was playing below that level.

jayjay33
06-23-2015, 03:55 PM
Man the kobe haters are on a roll today. Lol

Forget mosgov, TT, smith, shump. Brown, Walton and SMUSH could not even get you DELLY from Cleveland. And I'm not exaggerating either. Nobody would do that trade. That's how lopsided this is.

IKnowHoops
06-23-2015, 04:32 PM
Is this a serious question? Kobe has missed the playoffs with teams of this caliber. Kobe is a great individual talent, but a team like this needs a player who will pass and give people a chance to step up. Kobe is known for not trusting his teammates and I dont see him trusting anyone on this Cavs team. This team would be awful with Kobe. See Shump and JR with Melo and Phil. Melo isn't the bulldog that Kobe is so I see it being an even worse situation.